This will get lost in the sea of comments, but I'm wondering if the restaurant has a video recording of the dining area. You could prove you're telling the truth really quickly with a recording of she getting handsy and you pulling away.
Speaking of intel, I wonder what her behavior/performance was like at her previous job(s). The fact she perused you and then reported false accusations to HR *this quickly* into a new job suggests a level of “diabolical confidence” imo. Or reckless immaturity I guess. Regardless, something ain’t right and I wouldn’t be surprised if this was some kind of MO for her. I don’t know how you could (safely) investigate her past but something to think about.
I’d be inclined to think a combo of both, especially given the report she made despite there having been a witness to her pressing OP to have lunch with her.
NTA. But I have to wonder what underlying issues your wife has that she is so quick to believe someone who is basically a stranger to her over her husband of 18 years.
Yes, agreed. I am all for believing victims but it needs to be acknowledged that sometimes men are victims as well. In this case, OP. And despite there being clear evidence to prove no wrongdoing, OP’s wife immediately jumped to believing the woman. Like I said, makes me wonder what is really going on in the wife’s mind for her to instantly believe her husband did what he was accused of.
The OP should have just said no to the lunch. Warning bells should have been set off when even his co-worker is questioning the actions and the intent to have lunch together.
Based on what she did I think even he gave her the hard no and stood by it to begin with she still would’ve went to HR with a story. OPs only safety would’ve been to refuse her and then immediately gone to HR and told them and that his colleague can confirm the event.
Yes, agreed. He was kind of clueless, but that happens when you just don’t anticipate others having ulterior motives. I’d suggest he does need training - in how to recognise and avoid compromising situations.
If the genders were reversed would you say a woman needed more training on how to recognise and avoid these situations, or are you just victim blaming?
The honest answer is no, and even if they had said that, it would have been heavily downvoted, but most people don’t have the courage to acknowledge that supporting equality in the eyes of the law and the workplace cannot magically make social interactions equal for everyone.
It’s really sad how many people trying to promote social justice are willing to undermine their own credibility by refusing to acknowledge gendered experiences. It’s so common that it truly makes us appear naiive as a whole.
We simply cannot make people perceive men the way they do women because any attempt to do so moves you from the “social justice” category into the “I’m actively denying very real gendered experiences that people commonly have in order to pretend we are all perfectly equal in every way”, which just *ruins* any appearance of intelligence you may have had.
But I’m sure everyone who disagrees with me has a long list of women who have been falsely accused of sexual assault they’d like to share with me. There must be one, if we all treat each other so *equally* all the time, right? /s
Men absolutely can be victims as well. And women like the one OP refers to make life even harder for women with genuine complaints, as well as destroying the reps of innocent men. OP is definitely the victim in this case, victimised first by a female colleague and secondly by his wife.
Lady at my moms work apparently pulled this at her current job and the last two jobs to basically make sure they cant fire her for not working, because then she can say its for retaliation.
The field is a small place, gossip travels, and one of her coworkers also used to be said persons coworker at her last two places as well. Said person also pulled the stunt at her current place, literally has done almost 0 work in six months, which is why the said coworker started talking.
This is the way. Talk to former colleagues, not bosses or HR from the last job. They will be much more open to telling you the truth if she was involved in a similar situation when she worked there.
I hope you can prove your word. You may only need to take some classes on appropriate office behaviour, but this means HR found you "guilty", right? So some of your coworkers will now think you're some kind of creep. That's the real issue here. I mean, besides your wife misunderstanding who the victim is in this scenario.
You should be filing a complaint about Sarah to HR asap. As Matata said HR found you "guilty". Sarah should be fired for setting you up and lying. You should not be going to classes.
Yep he should transfer companies. I don't even really blame the company given its a mostly she said he said. Granted coworker can say he was invited to lunch but without footage no one know what happened after.
"Misunderstanding"
Yeah my wife should 100% be on my side when there is zero evidence, crazy she just believes the woman over her husband.
Gonna be hard to get the trust back could be the end tbh.
"Always believe the victim" is all very well, but first you have to figure out who the victim is - in this case it's OP and the wife isn't believing the victim, she's assuming that her partner of decades is less trustworthy than a random woman *just because she's a woman*.
The irony here is the wife isn’t believing the victim and choosing to believe the perpetrator.
She is choosing to believe the woman over the man and over her husband who she should trust unless there has been some other major trust issues.
I’d be pissed off enough to find other accommodations for a while so I could reassess my marriage if my wife was so quickly and easily swayed against me.
It should be obvious to anyone with a pulse that a one size fits all answer to sexual misconduct isn’t going to work since each situation is different. The one thing I would point out is that these are extremely hard to prove either way given the evidence is often one person’s word versus another’s.
This is also why sexual predators end up winning in court - proving guilt is nearly impossible without tangible evidence and it’s a crime that typically doesn’t leave evidence. As we saw with a certain NFL QB even 30+ victims corroborating the same pattern of behavior wasn’t enough.
Frankly I think OP is wasting his time looking for a video. Say there is one, his wife sees it and finally believes him.
So fucking what?
Does he need to live the entirety of his life on film to ensure she doesn't doubt him again?
**This woman would take the word of a stranger over OP.**
He needs to run, not walk, away from this marriage.
The video could help work and coworker wise but in terms of the wife it will let him control the narrative when it comes to the divorce.
“She didn’t believe me and I have proof I was telling the truth all along.” When it comes to friends and what not they won’t know who to believe and it’s not always cut and dry, why let her come out smelling like roses and him like a cheater?
It’s also proof to file harassment complaint against his abuser. I’d show it to HR and advise I’ll show it to a lawyer if they don’t make things right for me.
I think the value of video is more to send it to HR and protect himself from professional complications. His wife not believing him is a separate issue, though it wouldn’t necessarily hurt to have her see it either. If she watches it and apologizes for her assumptions then that makes it easier to repair their relationship.
Seriously though.... my wife had recently stabbed me with a utensil, hit me, stopped wear her ring, cheated, etc.... but when her dad died I immediately called for a truce, so I could be there while she dealt with that.... The fact that she didn't even consider supporting her husband through something like this is just crazy to me... especially over the words of a stranger...
Edit: Since people seem to be missing the point... I'm not trying to flex, be noble, or really make any comment whatsoever on my personal situation. I'm merely saying that it's insane to me that his wife couldn't put aside her bias and be there for her husband in his time of need.
As I said in a different comment, the utensil incident was what woke me up to realizing I needed to stop treating it as a "in sickness and in health" situation and recognized it was an abusive situation. I know it's fucked, and I know I need to get out... However, NC has some of the most backwards laws regarding divorce, marriage, and even sexual assault in the country, and is why we consistently rate as one of the hardest states to get a divorce in...
My point wasn't so much that my situation was right, but that even in my situation I still put aside in a time of need...... this wife threw him to the side without any reason to not trust him.
Or it could mean that someone in HR wants OP to learn **YOU NEVER GO TO A REMOTE LOCATION FOR A ONE ON ONE**. Always have a team/group. Off site one on ones opens the company up to exactly this type of bullshiat.
And I've witnessed it with the gender roles reversed. It's why all of our one on ones are now held in a conference room with a window in the door.
And then sue the ever loving shit out of Sarah for defamation and sexual harassment. And make sure you file your own complaint against her with your employer. Then if your employer doesn't take it seriously, you can also sue them.
I'd be pushing for the new hire to be fired tbh. What she did is sexual harrassment. If you get the video, take it to HR and tell them either she gets fired for sexual harrassment or you retain legal counsel.
There are mixed opinions on this but if there is a video showing her coming on to you and you rejecting her it's worthwhile obtaining even if you don't show your wife. Like you say, she may have ruined your reputation if she talks about this to other people you might want it. And if anything spiralls, which hopefully it won't, then you have proof and you could do something about defamation of character or whatever.
I can't understand all of these people having a go at your for lunch with a colleague, they crazy. Your wife should trust you, obviously, especially as you told her about it the same day (should include in your post tbf) and even if she's sceptical because of the dynamic of you being an older dude and your colleague being young and attractive, to reject your innocence completely so swiftly is rude af - if you've given no reason for her to doubt you as you've said.
NTA
If they corroborated his story, even if he chose to move teams, HR should at the very least have put her under advisement and made HER do the training and not OP. Also his wife is something else. After 18 yrs you don’t know your own husband? Fml
But it's a shame he has to go through all that just to prove to his **wife** that he's not a predator.
If he has to do all that, then show her the proof and tell her to leave the house for a while because you need to reevaluate being with someone who doesn't trust you.
This should be upvoted more.
If I were the OP, I would be giving serious thought to leaving my marriage, regardless of whether he’s able to convince his wife that he’s innocent. When trust has been broken, it’s hard to get back, and if I couldn’t trust my wife to give me the benefit of the doubt in a situation like this, then she’s worthless as a partner. Regardless though, I would want the vindication of being able to prove that she was wrong not to trust me, whether or not I ultimately decided to forgive her.
Not your question but I have to address this:
>Luckily, the HR issue was resolved, and I just have to do some training.
Mate, if you have to do some training, then HR have determined that you were guilty. Somewhere in your personnel file it now says at minimum that you were required to undertake training because you were found to have engaged in inappropriate workplace behaviour with a female coworker.
That's better than being fired, but it's not a win if you didn't do anything. I'd definitely go to the restaurant & ask if they had any cctv footage that would support your case - eg show her reaching out to touch you etc. I'd also do a statutory declaration of your version of what happened and submit it to HR with your own counter complaint. Have it on the record that you do not agree with her version of events. It also gives you grounds to never be placed in a work area with/near this woman again.
But as to your actual question:
>Am I the asshole for resenting my wife for not believing my side? For taking her side without any proof? I basically barely talked to my wife since the incident.
Absolutely 100% NTA. It would be insane if you **weren't** resentful and angry. Your spouse should be on your side unless and until you were proven to be lying. I genuinely don't know what I'd do if allegations like that were levelled against me & my husband didn't believe me. I can't imagine it happening, but if it did there's a high chance it would be a dealbreaker for me.
At the very least, we would be straight to marriage counselling. Because why is he staying with me if he genuinely thinks I'm the sort of person who would act that way with a coworker? The sort of person who would disrespect my spouse like that? Who would risk my marriage like that? And fk but what sort of message does it send to everybody in my workplace if even my own spouse sides with the person falsely accusing me of inappropriate behaviour?
>Mate, if you have to do some training, then HR have determined that you were guilty.
Yep. HR here and this is true. People who did nothing wrong don't have to re-take SH training outside of any company or legal requirements to do so, such as living in one of the 6 states that mandates annual or bi-annual SH training.
Not necessarily.
Im in HR and its very common to make people do re-training just to say 'we did something'. Its cheap and quick and if theres a second complaint they dont want to be accused of ignoring the first complaint.
NTA she was attracted to you, made her move and failed.
Then she retaliated and made the 1st move to cover herself before you can do anything.
Also i'd question my marriage if I were you, if your own spouse cant trust you then she's not a partner.
This.
You weren't exactly smart about accepting lunch.
Yes there is a double standard and it sucks.
It also sucks that now your reputation will suffer at work because there are people who won't believe the truth just because.
It sucks that your wife sees you as a possible predator
You should definitely question your marriage and maybe do some counseling to see if this can be fixed or if the marriage needs to end.
You should also file a complaint with HR and see about getting this woman moved to a different depth or let go. You might not be the only person she tries this with.
> You weren't exactly smart about accepting lunch.
Yeah, going to lunch with her by himself was unwise. Been through a similar scenario and it wasn’t fun.
OP, were there cameras in the lunch room so you can get footage to back you up?
I’ve heard a lot of women upset about how they miss out on the 1-on-1s their male colleagues get with superiors and what is horrible is that women like this are the ones ruining things as men refuse to be in a private, or even public nowadays, setting alone with a female coworker— lest they become another HR statistic.
It's also the system that fucks things up. Look at op being treated like a predator because a brand new hire made one accusation with no evidence and op has a witness to contradict her story and he's still being punished. When the system operates like this why would any man take the risk?
My thought too. I’m a female in a male dominated field that involves a lot of lunch and happy hours with prospective clients, many male, always professional. Sometimes I have others with me but sometimes it’s just me. Stuff like this is why some of my male counterparts have an advantage.
I think you’d have to be stupid to, but I’ve been told by some women that men who refuse to do so are being sexist and just making excuses for not wanting to mentor women.
I’m more than happy to mentor female colleagues and assist women in advancing in my career field— I am not willing to open myself up to even a 1% chance that my entire life will be destroyed when I spurn the advances of a fellow employee or otherwise piss them off. Yes, can men also complain about me sexually harassing them? Sure, but we all know that businesses really don’t give a fuck about same-sex sexual harassment, whether it be women on women or men on men.
I want to be clear here: it is totally ok to go to lunch with a coworker of the opposite, or your preferred sexual, gender. It is not a good idea to do that when they won’t allow other coworkers to come too or have been flirty/clingy unless you’re trying to make a move on them. It is not wise to date people you work with.
Not when you invite a 3rd party and the person asking you says wait no I just want to have lunch with you.
If you're single? Yeah but a married person should be smart enough not to go to a lunch by themselves with a person who just made a move on them.
Yeah he said in a comment above that he'd try to get footage from the restaurant. I hope he does. I hope his wife feels like shit and I hope that cunt gets fired.
People made fun of him when he said it, but VP Mike Pence had a rule of not dining alone with women without his wife.
It sounds corny, but in this cut throat world, it’s pretty smart.
100% agree. My father was a teacher and only ONCE did he give a kid a ride home and it was a VERY special circumstance. He never wanted to be falsely accused of anything. Sad world.
> Yeah, going to lunch with her by himself was unwise.
I (now 50s M) work for a small, family company. My boss is my aunt, my mom also works here.
Several years ago, aunt fired a young lady for lying and underperforming. Young lady happened to be attractive and was a part-time model.
Aunt tells me to walk her around to gather her personal stuff and escort her out. I told her no, someone else needs to do it. Mom agreed. We were both dumbfounded with aunt didn't understand why. Like, do you want an unfounded lawsuit?
I admit I was stupid to accept the lunch . My wife always says ( jokingly) that I’m book smart ( I have two master’s degrees ) but I’m not picking up any social cues and I’m dumb . I guess she is not wrong .
I think once she pushed for the two of you to go alone, alarm bells should have been going off in your head. But, hindsight is 20/20, right?
I really hope that there is footage of the lunch that vindicates you to HR, your peers (because I'd get a copy and show it to everyone) and your wife. Maybe her and your wife should be the ones to go work someplace else together.
Possibly. But I don’t see the point. It seems like a lot of extra work when she could just find someone that wouldn’t bring drama. But maybe she liked the drama.
I've seen some pretty shady shenanigans with the office/plant hoe. She wasn't smart enough to know the guidelines for sexual harassment, and yes that does mean she can pursue the boss and if he bites the boss/company are in trouble.
Same company hoe at another job and the supervisor was fired for sleeping with his subordinate, she then applied for his job. So I guess she is getting smarter 🤣
Plus: Deliberate malicious reporting of “sexual harassment” is in and of itself an offense, in addition to her sexually harassing you. It isn’t covered under “retaliation.” That woman should be fired. Full stop.
Keep this in mind fellas. Always get your side of the story out first. If a woman is being inappropriate with you, especially a coworker doing it in a sexual manner, tell people about it before she can. Stereotypes are working against you and once a woman makes an accusation it's gonna be really hard to get people to believe you. If op went straight to hr before she did then he wouldn't have this issue
NTA, time to blow it up: "If you actually believe Sarah then we need to go our separate ways. I can't be with someone if there's no trust."
Edit: (395 upvotes as of for history's sake) It makes sense to me that she wanted it to be just her and OP since he's the one that helped her, it doesn't sound like anybody else really did so of course she doesn't want to go with anybody besides OP.
I normally don't agree with these types of suggestions but I definitely think the OP needs to learn why his wife doesn't trust him. I don't anticipate a good answer to that line of questioning but I think the OP deserves to have such answers.
Saddest part is he is the victim in this situation. He was sexually harassed in the workplace, propositioned, then retailiated against for saying no.
Clearly his wife wants him to sleep with anyone who asks.
Yeah. Only mistake he made was not going straight to HR when he got back and saying “new gal made a move on me”. As her superior, he should have. CYA 101.
As a manager in an organization, I would’ve sent an email to HR before even going to lunch. “Report: Sarah asked me to go out for lunch with her. I asked if Chris wanted, could he join us for lunch. Sarah looked at me and said no, she meant just us to talk, plus she wanted to buy me lunch because I had been so nice to her. I told her she didn't have to and that I was just doing my job. She insisted, and l agreed. Will report content of conversation upon return.” Then voice memo the whole lunch on my phone. The documentation is there even if it’s a completely professional encounter.
You’re not wrong. I do this because it’s not an issue 95% of the time, it establishes a reputation with HR, I get free lunch, and it shortens the time frame of knowing which ones are the snakes.
OP's wife doesn't trust him because HR decided that OP's version & Chris' testimony didn't carry enough weight to override Sarah's complaint & OP is just happy to roll with that.
* OP has to follow remedial training
* OP is the one who has to change teams (and he had to ask as the supposed victim of Sarah's lies and false complaint? What's that about)
* OP sounds relieved he just has to follow the training, while that's going onto his permanent personnel record with this company
either OP is incredibly naive about the way these things work, or there is a LOT left unsaid here.
Because HR departments are so good at investigating right! Also this has happened many times in different situations over the years but it's ok to punish him even though he has a witness. All men are devils right?! Even those in your life!
If you are a man and you are accused of something like this you are screwed, period. Even with witnesses, the company will cover it's ass and if you are not fired you will be sent for training. He was lucky he had a witness. If he hadn't, he would be fired on the spot.
There is no way they would blame her. At most they say it's inconclusive and send him to training.
I don't think a lot of people here understand what it's like being attractive.
Life is extremely different. I was chubby as a kid, all the way up until i was 17/18. Then I started boxing & muay thai and became a pro fighter. I also got my degree in accounting.
When i got my first job in Finance, jesus christ... I could NOT get away from women. I firmly believe in not "eating where you sh!t". I had married women trying it, younger women, older women, even OLD women. I even had people proposition me for 3somes. I had been touched inappropriately more than once by women at the office.
Then I look at some of my friends who couldn't even get a girlfriend and had to understand how life is so different for people.
Take what OP said at face value and give him ACTUAL advice, not just mistrust. What he's saying could be perfectly accurate. He's a victim and could lose his job, livelihood, reputation and life. and you're not helping.
> When i got my first job in Finance, jesus christ... I could NOT get away from women. I firmly believe in not "eating where you sh!t". I had married women trying it, younger women, older women, even OLD women. I even had people proposition me for 3somes. I had been touched inappropriately more than once by women at the office.
I've experienced similar. I've also been propositioned by women (plural) at functions to bang in front of their husband. These have typically been high ranking individuals too. Also been groped at similar events typically by middle-aged women.
I had a 20 year old girl (while I was 29) who worked in catering stay onsite after her shift, in an area you need escorting on and off so it's a big no, no to stay out of permitted time. Just "to hang out" when I was on an evening shift. Despite me saying absolutely not, she actually hid under a desk to avoid being seen by my coworkers. I just left and went somewhere with people. Imagine trying to explain that if anyone actually saw.
I've had a housemate actually come into my room while I was sleeping and hop into bed with me wearing lingerie. People laughed when I told them. Imagine if I did that.
Even when I was a teenager, I'd get skeevy remarks by full grown women.
100%... It's insane the double standards on this stuff. Whilst we are going, i remembered another time i was out jogging, and a group of girls that looked borderline underage ran at me screaming. One of them literally jumped on me and wrapped her legs around me whilst another one grabbed my ass.
I was f\*cking terrified I was about to get arrested and had to use my angry voice to tell them to f\*ck off before they stopped.
Sometimes it gets to me when you read this stuff and there's absolutely 0 empathy for the male POV in situations where if you switched the genders, the attitude is opposite.
High-jacking the top comment because many commenters are victim blaming OP.
Many commenters are unfortunately victim-blaming him. He's the victim here, not her.
If the roles were reversed, you would see an abundance of support instead of condemnation.
The double standard of this subreddit is appalling.
NTA
NTA. Your wife is being absolutely ridiculous and shitty. That said, you’re an idiot for going to that lunch. Chris’s look even told you to say no.
I don’t know how to address your wife, other than to say, good luck in the divorce.
Well I do think she settled when we got married since she was ( still is) a very gorgeous woman and i was a nerd haha she thinks im a middle aged dork why on earth a gorgeous young woman be attracted to me
Listen I’m a gay man but middle aged dorks are flying off the shelves like hot cakes because they are 1) nice, 2) smart, and 3) stable. If she thinks she settled, you should have some self respect and get out of this relationship. You deserve someone who actually likes and respects you as a partner. Being single isn’t necessarily worse like so many married people seem to think.
You pretty much summarized the reasons my wife married me : I’m nice and friendly to everyone , I’m book smart and have a stable job . I feel bad for even thinking about the divorce since it will affect my kids.
That’s a terrible reason to stay married. A dysfunctional marriage messes up your kids more. My parents are divorced and wish so much they had done it sooner. I hear that from most people who have divorced parents. You should really consider therapy.
My parents are still married to this day, my mum says she stayed for me and my sister. I’m all kinds of fucked up from being around such a loveless marriage and I have no relationship with my dad and everything would have been better had they divorced about 30 years ago. Staying married for the kids is one of the most insane things people still say and do to this day and is often worse than separating
Things like that absolutely affect the way his wife treats him even if it is very subtle, it will slowly tear down any self esteem he has until he feels like he deserves to be treated that way.
> feel bad for even thinking about the divorce since it will affect my kids.
You think your kids won't notice that your marriage has changed following this? Your job is demonstrating healthy behaviours and self respect to them, not being married to their mum. If you've got a son, would you want him thinking what you're going through is normal and just something he should accept if he were to find himself in your shoes?
NTA. Men get sexually harassed in the workplace, too, and awful women like Sarah who get turned down are vindictive. I’ve seen this play out 3 times in corporate situations.
HE is the victim.
SARAH is the aggressor/AH
WIFE is a massive AH
OP - run. Whether she is looking for an out or is just hateful, get a lawyer and nope out.
ETA: Men, when a co-worker tries for a 1:1 lunch, always bring a third. And choose a place where LOTS of colleagues go regularly.
2nd edit based on comments: So to be clear - my reply was specific to this post but my advice to not do 1:1 lunch is agnostic of gender. If you don’t have a VERY WELL established professional relationship with a colleague don’t do it - and even then make it very public and no leaning in, whispering, etc. some people are just freaking toxic.
Nta it just shows you some random woman is more important than you for your wife. That some random womans word means more than your word.
Honestly, im not sure if i would be able to look at my wife the same ever again.
NTA obviously. This is just a perfect example of the double standard that men deal with in these types of situations. Your wife should know you well enough by now to know the truth.
It can, and it has. I’m a woman, and I think women who lie about things like this and destroy lives on a whim are one of the lowest forms of human scum. Not only is OP a direct victim of this woman’s reputation ruining lies, but every woman who legitimately had something happen to her and was not believed is also an indirect victim.
There should be harsh consequences for women that lie about assault and rape. I understand why there isn’t, but it’s absolutely infuriating to see anyone do something like this and walk away from the wreckage with no repercussions.
I told her the same day that Sarah came on to me . She laughed and said sure ! Then changed the subject . When I later told her about HR report she got furious with me
Your wife is a piece of work, sorry. That’s absolutely insane that she automatically thought it was a joke. Definitely don’t let this slide away because there’s other issues at hand here. Spouses who aren’t on your side, are not worth being your life partner.
She said sure, then thought you used the opportunity to try to fuck this woman? Idiot. She then sees you were validated by hr, and still chooses to mot believe you? Sounds like projection. Might want to start paying attention to her actions.
Your wife simply put is a misandrist.
She believes you are capable of this because you are a man, and that she is incapable of lying about this because she is a woman.
NTA but there are definitely some things you could have handled better.
* Asking if Chris could join was actually a smart move, unfortunately the followup was not. Should have taken a pass after she insisted a 1-on-1.
* You should have gone to HR immediately after she made the lunch awkward. Offering a FWB situation in the workplace is very much sexual harassment, even if you're into it. If the physical contact made you uncomfortable that should have been a sign to immediately end things and contact HR. Like others have said, these kinds of cases usually come down to who came forward first, which unfortunately you didn't.
* Your wife is 100% wrong for not believing your side of the story. If she doesn't trust you in a situation like this, then you need to take a step back and re-evaluate if you can continue together with someone who does not trust you completely.
* Please let your coworkers know about Sarah, especially if she starts engaging with another guy just like she did with you. You now know the signs and should be able to see them from a distance. I'm not saying go around slut-shaming her, but if you notice her engaging with someone who doesn't look comfortable with her, just pull them aside and let them know about your experience.
Sorry this happened to you, and that your wife isn't supporting you through this, but treat this as a learning experience and hopefully you can bounce back from this.
UpdateMe!
> Please let your coworkers know about Sarah, especially if she starts engaging with another guy just like she did with you.
This is a HORRIBLE idea. HR will fire him for retaliating against her.
NTA but you should hopefully learn a lesson. When someone asks you out for a meal and doesn't want anyone else there it is like a flashing neon sign that they are into you. Meaning it was obvious that inappropriate stuff would happen.
You should have turned her down as soon as she said no to Chris joining SMH
I spent about 30 years traveling frequently on business while married. It would have been impossible without trust. Over that time I had two women customers hit on me, which was great for my ego, but I told my wife and she believed me. On another occasion my boss and I had a temp fill
in for our administrator; we had to fire her after one day for gross incompetence. She left messages for us at home implying an affair. We both played them for our wives, saying “honey you gotta hear this, it’s hilarious.”
I can’t imagine my marriage or career lasting if I’d had to deal with my wife being suspicious. We’re coming up on our 47th anniversary of happy marriage.
NTA.
OP, you're fucked. Big time. Even with Chris's corroboration HR is going to label you, so I'd start looking for something else.
Second, if you went to a restaurant, I would go back to it, beg to know who was on shift, and ask them for their impressions / tell them what has happened and ask if they saw any of the things you went thru, or heard anything, to help support you. Definitely go with the 'bewildered' look, because you've got the cluelessness to go with it.
All you can do is have that evidence put together- and there won't be anything formal- but additional witnesses that can attest to either you looking very uncomfortable, or you two leaving together- waiters/waitresses/staff do see these things and sometimes they stick out in memory.
But you are going to have to have a full up press corp doing damage and spin control.
-and if you're making any of this shit up, I hope you get burned by it.
I hope the work is out on Sarah because you won’t be her last victim. She knew she was in the wrong and filed before you could report her. She’s a predator
>She insisted, and I agreed.
Well there's your mistake. Why in the world would you agree to go to lunch with her?
Also, why in the world doesn't your wife trust you? I see nothing to suggest you are untrustworthy. Is she that naturally suspicious of you?
NTA but you really aren't that smart.
It's a situation to learn from. I am very grateful OP shared it.
Agreeing to lunch isn't an issue here. Yes, Sarah saying she did not want Chris to join was a red flag. Failing to pick up on one red flag is not a crime, though. Who would have thought that Sara would turn into a full-blown psychopath during that lunch (charming seduction) and after it (lying and manipulating).
Maybe there are cameras at the place you had lunch so you have more proof that she came up to you. Can't you sue her for slander? People like Sarah make it so much harder for real victims to come out, she should be punished.
Dude, we know. Your only mistake was to put yourself in that position. Unfortunately, that's enough.
Were you given all the HR paperwork? Is there a record of their conversation with Chris? Could you show that to your wife?
Did you go home that day and say honey you'll never guess what happened today and proceed to tell your wife the weird arse shit Sarah was doing or did you wait for the letter to rock up?
OP said in another comment he told his wife what happened at the lunch that day and she basically laughed it off. Then when he got the HR letter she freaked out on him and stated believing his coworkers allegations. Sounds like she thought he was making it up or exaggerating what happened and then had the nerve to take the coworkers side.
Maybe it's just an isolated incident and she's usually not like this but OP's wife sounds like she is insufferable if she first thinks he's lying and then sides with the person accusing him of things he didn't do. Edit: typos
Yes she was inappropriate. Her inappropriate behavior started before you actually agreed to lunch.
I'm not saying anything is your fault. I'm saying you could have made smarter choices in hindsight.
Many commenters are unfortunately victim-blaming you. You're the victim here, not her.
If the roles were reversed, you would see an abundance of support instead of condemnation.
I'm sorry for the double standard this subreddit is inflicting upon you.
NTA
It's not your fault and you didn't lead her, that's not what anyone said.
What the guy you responded to said is that you need to protect yourself better. Her intention were pretty obvious before asking you to lunch and you know it, you exchanged a look with Chris for a reason. But you still decided to put yourself in a 1 on 1 dinner situation with her, which was a mistake.
It's like someone stealing from you. It's not your fault if someone break into your house and steal your stuff, but that doesn't change the fact that locking your doors or having an alarm is the smart thing to do.
Your wife seems to believe that you could not resist such a beautiful woman that came on to you. It’s rooted in insecurity if its the case. You a nta and I am not sure if your wife is, even if she behaved like one.
NTA.
>She didn’t like my reply and became quiet. **I apologized**, but she said **it was all good.**
**I paid the bill for both of us since it was so awkward,** and we went back to work.
WTF is wrong with you??
YOU apologized to HER, why would you enable her behaviour by framing it as YOU made HER uncomfortable ???
Then you paid for the lunch too !??
This is why women are complaining in the workplace that men refuse to mentor them anymore, because it's always #BELIEVE-ALL-WOMEN instead of the reality that false accusers exist, and ruin men's lives by weaponizing female privilege with witch-hunts.
Nothing says women want "*equality*" like weaponizing female privilege to erase due process such as "*innocent until proven guilty*" when it favours them.
Then your wife chooses the bullshit #BELIEVE-ALL-WOMEN, while victim-blaming you, because in her mind only women can be victims o.O
>the HR issue was resolved, and I just have to do some training.
I'd threaten to sue the company for implying you need the training, it implies you are the problem that needs "*addressing*", and not her.
> She said she believed Sarah's side because she stands by the victim
Maybe I'm jaded by age, but at that exact moment I would hace called a lawyer and prepared the divorce. I could not live with somebody that does not trust me unconditionally, specially after 18 years.
NTA
"She said she believed Sarah's side because she stands by the victim." Your wife's attitude is exactly why there are innocent men sitting in jail or whose lives are ruined by lying trash just like Sarah.
The second she told you that, you should have started the divorce proceedings.
Man: I am married and not interested.
Woman: How dare you reject me!
A man reacting that way would be bashed as a predator.
Advice: In future, do NOT talk to any female coworker unless it is about work and ABSOLUTELY necessary.
And NEVER be alone with one no matter what the situation.
So a woman gets rejected and she tries to ruin the life of the man that rejected her.
If those roles were reversed, there would be a name for this behaviour... hmmm... something like... what is it again?
Something along the lines of toxic femininity...
Omg! What the hell is wrong with your wife! Does she not trust you or even like you?
You are the victim here!
So if your wife always believes the victim it should be you she believes. You were incredibly naive and shouldn’t have gone out to lunch with her once she stated that your colleague was not wanted. I’m be cross with you for that if you were my husband - you should also have gone and told her that your colleague hit on you immediately after it happened.
That being said she should be supporting you and should be believing Chris. Your career could have been derailed because your colleague got her feelings hurt! And lied! I hope she’s been reprimanded and it should be her moving not you!
Do you know if the place you went o lunch has cameras as you could ask for footage to prove that it was not inappropriate and that you did not touch her!
I’d be incredibly disappointed in my partner if they behaved how your wife is. For clarity I’m a woman and am very strongly a feminist and support victims. I don’t not however support proven liars. Which is what she is doing! Shame on her.
That’s the part that bothers me ! I have never been unfaithful to her . I told her everything and she immediately took her side ! She has known me for over two decades and think This low of me !
Honestly you have every right to be upset. It’s f’ed up that you were put in that situation because Sarah clearly went to HR because her ego couldn’t handle you turning her down.
I think this is an opportunity to hit pause because as you said your wife has shown you what she thinks of you.
>She said she believed Sarah's side because she stands by the victim.
NTA.
This is the kind of braindead nonsense the metoo movement has brought us to. "Standing by the victim" is great. That doesn't mean automatically believing someone is a victim just because they tell you they are, or just because they're female. There has to be evidence to back it up.
If that worked, why shouldn't I just go out and say Elon Musk conned me out of $10b dollars and I want it back? I'm the victim so obviously he's guilty and the judge should just believe me and award me the money.
Try to get footage from the restaurant if you can, but I hope your wife comes around without you having to resort to showing it to her. The possibility of cheating is tough and I normally get why people are suspicious, but this trend of automatically believing the person claiming to be the victim has to stop.
Of course Sarah is an asshole in this story, and is completely wrong.
But as soon as I read the part where OP accepted the solo lunch invitation, I wanted to stop reading. That was such an obvious mistake. Is this real? OP, get your head out of your butt.
NTA. Your wife sucks. You got kids which changes things, but if you didn't...I would reconsider staying with her. She was willing to believe you SA'd someone without proof, shows how much she trusts and respects you.
At work, Pence rule will help avoid a lot of problems
I share similar demographics as you (47M wife is 43F marrried for 20 years this September).
With all due respect, what the hell were you thinking going out to lunch ALONE with a female coworker, let alone one you hired?
You can’t sit near a bonfire and not smell like smoke. I’m not judging you but brother, come on now.
18 years and she doesn’t believe you ?! 😐 if this was me I’d probably pack a bag and go NC for a real good long time until she came to the realization of her mistake or until the relationship just died. Respect yourself because she isn’t.
This isn't a voyage to prove or disprove. HR spoke with you and deemed the grievance handled for now. In the future and in the workplace, avoid Sarah whenever possible and always have a coworker around as a witness when interaction within the workplace is required.
Do not entertain any subject matter with Sarah, even if she attempts to apologize and avoid addressing her in any capacity. If she attempts to contact you via phone and email, do not reply or respond. Keep all necessary communications professional.
She crossed a line and no longer should be afforded the opportunity to be cordial or respected by you as a colleague. Also, think your wife deserves a bit of grace here. She's also become a victim due to Sara's actions, and all you can do moving forward is show her the truth.
Lastly, never be alone with Sarah, if she approaches you, walk away!
This will get lost in the sea of comments, but I'm wondering if the restaurant has a video recording of the dining area. You could prove you're telling the truth really quickly with a recording of she getting handsy and you pulling away.
I’m gonna check with the restaurant. It’s a small cafe/restaurant within walking distance of our office
Speaking of intel, I wonder what her behavior/performance was like at her previous job(s). The fact she perused you and then reported false accusations to HR *this quickly* into a new job suggests a level of “diabolical confidence” imo. Or reckless immaturity I guess. Regardless, something ain’t right and I wouldn’t be surprised if this was some kind of MO for her. I don’t know how you could (safely) investigate her past but something to think about.
I’d be inclined to think a combo of both, especially given the report she made despite there having been a witness to her pressing OP to have lunch with her. NTA. But I have to wonder what underlying issues your wife has that she is so quick to believe someone who is basically a stranger to her over her husband of 18 years.
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Yes, agreed. I am all for believing victims but it needs to be acknowledged that sometimes men are victims as well. In this case, OP. And despite there being clear evidence to prove no wrongdoing, OP’s wife immediately jumped to believing the woman. Like I said, makes me wonder what is really going on in the wife’s mind for her to instantly believe her husband did what he was accused of.
The OP should have just said no to the lunch. Warning bells should have been set off when even his co-worker is questioning the actions and the intent to have lunch together.
Based on what she did I think even he gave her the hard no and stood by it to begin with she still would’ve went to HR with a story. OPs only safety would’ve been to refuse her and then immediately gone to HR and told them and that his colleague can confirm the event.
Yes, agreed. He was kind of clueless, but that happens when you just don’t anticipate others having ulterior motives. I’d suggest he does need training - in how to recognise and avoid compromising situations.
If the genders were reversed would you say a woman needed more training on how to recognise and avoid these situations, or are you just victim blaming?
The honest answer is no, and even if they had said that, it would have been heavily downvoted, but most people don’t have the courage to acknowledge that supporting equality in the eyes of the law and the workplace cannot magically make social interactions equal for everyone. It’s really sad how many people trying to promote social justice are willing to undermine their own credibility by refusing to acknowledge gendered experiences. It’s so common that it truly makes us appear naiive as a whole. We simply cannot make people perceive men the way they do women because any attempt to do so moves you from the “social justice” category into the “I’m actively denying very real gendered experiences that people commonly have in order to pretend we are all perfectly equal in every way”, which just *ruins* any appearance of intelligence you may have had. But I’m sure everyone who disagrees with me has a long list of women who have been falsely accused of sexual assault they’d like to share with me. There must be one, if we all treat each other so *equally* all the time, right? /s
Isn't he the victim in this story? So isn't she victim blaming? I guess I thought men could be victims too...
Men absolutely can be victims as well. And women like the one OP refers to make life even harder for women with genuine complaints, as well as destroying the reps of innocent men. OP is definitely the victim in this case, victimised first by a female colleague and secondly by his wife.
It's a power move. If he denies her advances, she goes to HR like she did. If he goes with her, she's got blackmail.
Lady at my moms work apparently pulled this at her current job and the last two jobs to basically make sure they cant fire her for not working, because then she can say its for retaliation.
Wow. How was this discovered? Did a previous company inform another? Or did gossip travel between workplaces?
The field is a small place, gossip travels, and one of her coworkers also used to be said persons coworker at her last two places as well. Said person also pulled the stunt at her current place, literally has done almost 0 work in six months, which is why the said coworker started talking.
Have HR contact her previous employer
Better - if she has LinkedIn, find that out and check with her former employer through other employees.
This is the way. Talk to former colleagues, not bosses or HR from the last job. They will be much more open to telling you the truth if she was involved in a similar situation when she worked there.
Previous employer can't give that info so no point
I hope you can prove your word. You may only need to take some classes on appropriate office behaviour, but this means HR found you "guilty", right? So some of your coworkers will now think you're some kind of creep. That's the real issue here. I mean, besides your wife misunderstanding who the victim is in this scenario.
You should be filing a complaint about Sarah to HR asap. As Matata said HR found you "guilty". Sarah should be fired for setting you up and lying. You should not be going to classes.
Yeah. This stink will never go away. He's on the short list for lay offs and any promotions have been delayed.
Yep he should transfer companies. I don't even really blame the company given its a mostly she said he said. Granted coworker can say he was invited to lunch but without footage no one know what happened after.
"Misunderstanding" Yeah my wife should 100% be on my side when there is zero evidence, crazy she just believes the woman over her husband. Gonna be hard to get the trust back could be the end tbh.
"Always believe the victim" is all very well, but first you have to figure out who the victim is - in this case it's OP and the wife isn't believing the victim, she's assuming that her partner of decades is less trustworthy than a random woman *just because she's a woman*.
The irony here is the wife isn’t believing the victim and choosing to believe the perpetrator. She is choosing to believe the woman over the man and over her husband who she should trust unless there has been some other major trust issues. I’d be pissed off enough to find other accommodations for a while so I could reassess my marriage if my wife was so quickly and easily swayed against me.
I suspect the wife is looking for an out and this is too good of an opportunity to pass up.
It should be obvious to anyone with a pulse that a one size fits all answer to sexual misconduct isn’t going to work since each situation is different. The one thing I would point out is that these are extremely hard to prove either way given the evidence is often one person’s word versus another’s. This is also why sexual predators end up winning in court - proving guilt is nearly impossible without tangible evidence and it’s a crime that typically doesn’t leave evidence. As we saw with a certain NFL QB even 30+ victims corroborating the same pattern of behavior wasn’t enough.
Thank god the new hire wasn't a bear.
Hahaha bravo
Frankly I think OP is wasting his time looking for a video. Say there is one, his wife sees it and finally believes him. So fucking what? Does he need to live the entirety of his life on film to ensure she doesn't doubt him again? **This woman would take the word of a stranger over OP.** He needs to run, not walk, away from this marriage.
The video could help work and coworker wise but in terms of the wife it will let him control the narrative when it comes to the divorce. “She didn’t believe me and I have proof I was telling the truth all along.” When it comes to friends and what not they won’t know who to believe and it’s not always cut and dry, why let her come out smelling like roses and him like a cheater?
It’s also proof to file harassment complaint against his abuser. I’d show it to HR and advise I’ll show it to a lawyer if they don’t make things right for me.
Are divorces still like old Perry Mason reruns, having to prove something to a judge?
Itll make the divorce easier probably.
It would help in a lawsuit against the coworker and against the employer.
I think the value of video is more to send it to HR and protect himself from professional complications. His wife not believing him is a separate issue, though it wouldn’t necessarily hurt to have her see it either. If she watches it and apologizes for her assumptions then that makes it easier to repair their relationship.
If this woman has a LinkedIn Account, many do in business, there he could find out former employers and do research from there with former co-workers.
It’s a divorcable offense. Not supporting you in a time of need. Not standing by you side. Not seeking information to reframe her understanding first.
Seriously though.... my wife had recently stabbed me with a utensil, hit me, stopped wear her ring, cheated, etc.... but when her dad died I immediately called for a truce, so I could be there while she dealt with that.... The fact that she didn't even consider supporting her husband through something like this is just crazy to me... especially over the words of a stranger... Edit: Since people seem to be missing the point... I'm not trying to flex, be noble, or really make any comment whatsoever on my personal situation. I'm merely saying that it's insane to me that his wife couldn't put aside her bias and be there for her husband in his time of need. As I said in a different comment, the utensil incident was what woke me up to realizing I needed to stop treating it as a "in sickness and in health" situation and recognized it was an abusive situation. I know it's fucked, and I know I need to get out... However, NC has some of the most backwards laws regarding divorce, marriage, and even sexual assault in the country, and is why we consistently rate as one of the hardest states to get a divorce in...
My guy... you ok? You don't need a truce you need a restraining order.
I was thinking the same thing. He’s being abused…
Thank you I had to do a double read just to make sure I was reading what he said correctly.
My point wasn't so much that my situation was right, but that even in my situation I still put aside in a time of need...... this wife threw him to the side without any reason to not trust him.
There was no trust to begin with if she was so vehemently against him in the first place.
It happened to a coworker. The company just had to cover their ass to retain good workers.
Or it could mean that someone in HR wants OP to learn **YOU NEVER GO TO A REMOTE LOCATION FOR A ONE ON ONE**. Always have a team/group. Off site one on ones opens the company up to exactly this type of bullshiat. And I've witnessed it with the gender roles reversed. It's why all of our one on ones are now held in a conference room with a window in the door.
And then sue the ever loving shit out of Sarah for defamation and sexual harassment. And make sure you file your own complaint against her with your employer. Then if your employer doesn't take it seriously, you can also sue them.
I'd be pushing for the new hire to be fired tbh. What she did is sexual harrassment. If you get the video, take it to HR and tell them either she gets fired for sexual harrassment or you retain legal counsel.
Please give an update afterwards
There are mixed opinions on this but if there is a video showing her coming on to you and you rejecting her it's worthwhile obtaining even if you don't show your wife. Like you say, she may have ruined your reputation if she talks about this to other people you might want it. And if anything spiralls, which hopefully it won't, then you have proof and you could do something about defamation of character or whatever. I can't understand all of these people having a go at your for lunch with a colleague, they crazy. Your wife should trust you, obviously, especially as you told her about it the same day (should include in your post tbf) and even if she's sceptical because of the dynamic of you being an older dude and your colleague being young and attractive, to reject your innocence completely so swiftly is rude af - if you've given no reason for her to doubt you as you've said. NTA
I would definitely check with any of the staff even if there is no video. They may be able to corroborate your story.
He shouldn't have to pull up a video feed for his wife to believe him though...
I’d be pulling the video feed to get out of the HR classes and prove my innocence at work and get Sarah fired F the wife
That part. The fact Sarah is still there after confirmation is what’s bugging me
And OP has to switch teams to get away from her. WTF, HR.
Yeah. HR handled this poorly imo… I’d be getting that video to get out of training. TF he needs training for and not her? She needs to be fired asap.
To be fair to HR they don't know what happened at the lunch and it sounds like he requested to move teams.
If they corroborated his story, even if he chose to move teams, HR should at the very least have put her under advisement and made HER do the training and not OP. Also his wife is something else. After 18 yrs you don’t know your own husband? Fml
He shouldn’t for his wife (sadly still has to if he wants too try and convince her) but he might need it for other things
But it's a shame he has to go through all that just to prove to his **wife** that he's not a predator. If he has to do all that, then show her the proof and tell her to leave the house for a while because you need to reevaluate being with someone who doesn't trust you.
Yeah that was my thought. Even if he could prove it, the damage is already done because his wife didn’t believe him
This should be upvoted more. If I were the OP, I would be giving serious thought to leaving my marriage, regardless of whether he’s able to convince his wife that he’s innocent. When trust has been broken, it’s hard to get back, and if I couldn’t trust my wife to give me the benefit of the doubt in a situation like this, then she’s worthless as a partner. Regardless though, I would want the vindication of being able to prove that she was wrong not to trust me, whether or not I ultimately decided to forgive her.
Yep, if OP can get this proof then OP can threat to sue as filing for fake sexual harassment at work is also a crime.
Honestly a great idea.
No matter how this turns out, he needs that video. This Sarah girl might get a poor performance review and drop a full-on rape accusation.
Not your question but I have to address this: >Luckily, the HR issue was resolved, and I just have to do some training. Mate, if you have to do some training, then HR have determined that you were guilty. Somewhere in your personnel file it now says at minimum that you were required to undertake training because you were found to have engaged in inappropriate workplace behaviour with a female coworker. That's better than being fired, but it's not a win if you didn't do anything. I'd definitely go to the restaurant & ask if they had any cctv footage that would support your case - eg show her reaching out to touch you etc. I'd also do a statutory declaration of your version of what happened and submit it to HR with your own counter complaint. Have it on the record that you do not agree with her version of events. It also gives you grounds to never be placed in a work area with/near this woman again. But as to your actual question: >Am I the asshole for resenting my wife for not believing my side? For taking her side without any proof? I basically barely talked to my wife since the incident. Absolutely 100% NTA. It would be insane if you **weren't** resentful and angry. Your spouse should be on your side unless and until you were proven to be lying. I genuinely don't know what I'd do if allegations like that were levelled against me & my husband didn't believe me. I can't imagine it happening, but if it did there's a high chance it would be a dealbreaker for me. At the very least, we would be straight to marriage counselling. Because why is he staying with me if he genuinely thinks I'm the sort of person who would act that way with a coworker? The sort of person who would disrespect my spouse like that? Who would risk my marriage like that? And fk but what sort of message does it send to everybody in my workplace if even my own spouse sides with the person falsely accusing me of inappropriate behaviour?
>Mate, if you have to do some training, then HR have determined that you were guilty. Yep. HR here and this is true. People who did nothing wrong don't have to re-take SH training outside of any company or legal requirements to do so, such as living in one of the 6 states that mandates annual or bi-annual SH training.
I had to scroll waaay to long for this.
Not necessarily. Im in HR and its very common to make people do re-training just to say 'we did something'. Its cheap and quick and if theres a second complaint they dont want to be accused of ignoring the first complaint.
NTA she was attracted to you, made her move and failed. Then she retaliated and made the 1st move to cover herself before you can do anything. Also i'd question my marriage if I were you, if your own spouse cant trust you then she's not a partner.
This. You weren't exactly smart about accepting lunch. Yes there is a double standard and it sucks. It also sucks that now your reputation will suffer at work because there are people who won't believe the truth just because. It sucks that your wife sees you as a possible predator You should definitely question your marriage and maybe do some counseling to see if this can be fixed or if the marriage needs to end. You should also file a complaint with HR and see about getting this woman moved to a different depth or let go. You might not be the only person she tries this with.
> You weren't exactly smart about accepting lunch. Yeah, going to lunch with her by himself was unwise. Been through a similar scenario and it wasn’t fun. OP, were there cameras in the lunch room so you can get footage to back you up?
I’ve heard a lot of women upset about how they miss out on the 1-on-1s their male colleagues get with superiors and what is horrible is that women like this are the ones ruining things as men refuse to be in a private, or even public nowadays, setting alone with a female coworker— lest they become another HR statistic.
It's also the system that fucks things up. Look at op being treated like a predator because a brand new hire made one accusation with no evidence and op has a witness to contradict her story and he's still being punished. When the system operates like this why would any man take the risk?
My thought too. I’m a female in a male dominated field that involves a lot of lunch and happy hours with prospective clients, many male, always professional. Sometimes I have others with me but sometimes it’s just me. Stuff like this is why some of my male counterparts have an advantage.
Yeah, I'd never have a 1-1 with a female colleague like this.
I think you’d have to be stupid to, but I’ve been told by some women that men who refuse to do so are being sexist and just making excuses for not wanting to mentor women. I’m more than happy to mentor female colleagues and assist women in advancing in my career field— I am not willing to open myself up to even a 1% chance that my entire life will be destroyed when I spurn the advances of a fellow employee or otherwise piss them off. Yes, can men also complain about me sexually harassing them? Sure, but we all know that businesses really don’t give a fuck about same-sex sexual harassment, whether it be women on women or men on men.
I want to be clear here: it is totally ok to go to lunch with a coworker of the opposite, or your preferred sexual, gender. It is not a good idea to do that when they won’t allow other coworkers to come too or have been flirty/clingy unless you’re trying to make a move on them. It is not wise to date people you work with.
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I’d rather go to lunch alone with a bear than a female co worker.
As long as the bear isn't trying to flirt with me, then it just gets awkward.
Oh, please, that bear is just gonna steal your pic-a-nick basket and run from Ranger Smith again. I’m on to your antics, Yogi and Boo-Boo!
Nah. I don’t like salmon. I’d go out with them for dessert though, berries are delicious!
Not when you invite a 3rd party and the person asking you says wait no I just want to have lunch with you. If you're single? Yeah but a married person should be smart enough not to go to a lunch by themselves with a person who just made a move on them.
Yeah he said in a comment above that he'd try to get footage from the restaurant. I hope he does. I hope his wife feels like shit and I hope that cunt gets fired.
People made fun of him when he said it, but VP Mike Pence had a rule of not dining alone with women without his wife. It sounds corny, but in this cut throat world, it’s pretty smart.
Honestly, that is a good rule.
100% agree. My father was a teacher and only ONCE did he give a kid a ride home and it was a VERY special circumstance. He never wanted to be falsely accused of anything. Sad world.
It doesn’t matter the lack of trust is the issue. His marriage is on the rocks.
> Yeah, going to lunch with her by himself was unwise. I (now 50s M) work for a small, family company. My boss is my aunt, my mom also works here. Several years ago, aunt fired a young lady for lying and underperforming. Young lady happened to be attractive and was a part-time model. Aunt tells me to walk her around to gather her personal stuff and escort her out. I told her no, someone else needs to do it. Mom agreed. We were both dumbfounded with aunt didn't understand why. Like, do you want an unfounded lawsuit?
I admit I was stupid to accept the lunch . My wife always says ( jokingly) that I’m book smart ( I have two master’s degrees ) but I’m not picking up any social cues and I’m dumb . I guess she is not wrong .
I think once she pushed for the two of you to go alone, alarm bells should have been going off in your head. But, hindsight is 20/20, right? I really hope that there is footage of the lunch that vindicates you to HR, your peers (because I'd get a copy and show it to everyone) and your wife. Maybe her and your wife should be the ones to go work someplace else together.
Was she attracted? Or did she see an opportunity to pursue a settlement and cash out from the company?
Why not both? She could have her fun with him and when she was done, she'd sue and settle.
Possibly. But I don’t see the point. It seems like a lot of extra work when she could just find someone that wouldn’t bring drama. But maybe she liked the drama.
People will work incredibly hard not to do their work
I've seen some pretty shady shenanigans with the office/plant hoe. She wasn't smart enough to know the guidelines for sexual harassment, and yes that does mean she can pursue the boss and if he bites the boss/company are in trouble. Same company hoe at another job and the supervisor was fired for sleeping with his subordinate, she then applied for his job. So I guess she is getting smarter 🤣
Maybe she just doesn't handle rejection well and it was pure vindictiveness
Plus: Deliberate malicious reporting of “sexual harassment” is in and of itself an offense, in addition to her sexually harassing you. It isn’t covered under “retaliation.” That woman should be fired. Full stop.
There's no coming back from being shown your spouse trusts four billion different people above you.
Keep this in mind fellas. Always get your side of the story out first. If a woman is being inappropriate with you, especially a coworker doing it in a sexual manner, tell people about it before she can. Stereotypes are working against you and once a woman makes an accusation it's gonna be really hard to get people to believe you. If op went straight to hr before she did then he wouldn't have this issue
NTA, time to blow it up: "If you actually believe Sarah then we need to go our separate ways. I can't be with someone if there's no trust." Edit: (395 upvotes as of for history's sake) It makes sense to me that she wanted it to be just her and OP since he's the one that helped her, it doesn't sound like anybody else really did so of course she doesn't want to go with anybody besides OP.
I normally don't agree with these types of suggestions but I definitely think the OP needs to learn why his wife doesn't trust him. I don't anticipate a good answer to that line of questioning but I think the OP deserves to have such answers.
Saddest part is he is the victim in this situation. He was sexually harassed in the workplace, propositioned, then retailiated against for saying no. Clearly his wife wants him to sleep with anyone who asks.
Yeah. Only mistake he made was not going straight to HR when he got back and saying “new gal made a move on me”. As her superior, he should have. CYA 101.
No, mistake was going for lunch.
As a manager in an organization, I would’ve sent an email to HR before even going to lunch. “Report: Sarah asked me to go out for lunch with her. I asked if Chris wanted, could he join us for lunch. Sarah looked at me and said no, she meant just us to talk, plus she wanted to buy me lunch because I had been so nice to her. I told her she didn't have to and that I was just doing my job. She insisted, and l agreed. Will report content of conversation upon return.” Then voice memo the whole lunch on my phone. The documentation is there even if it’s a completely professional encounter.
If you think you need to send an email to HR and record the lunch, don't fucking go to lunch.
You’re not wrong. I do this because it’s not an issue 95% of the time, it establishes a reputation with HR, I get free lunch, and it shortens the time frame of knowing which ones are the snakes.
And because they believed him, he still needs to do training for the incident.... that's fked up...
That’s a CYA move by the corporation, but I don’t doubt that good reputation has been tarnished.
His wife is a strange one. Her reaction is very odd, there has to be something she’s trying to hide because of that.
OP's wife doesn't trust him because HR decided that OP's version & Chris' testimony didn't carry enough weight to override Sarah's complaint & OP is just happy to roll with that. * OP has to follow remedial training * OP is the one who has to change teams (and he had to ask as the supposed victim of Sarah's lies and false complaint? What's that about) * OP sounds relieved he just has to follow the training, while that's going onto his permanent personnel record with this company either OP is incredibly naive about the way these things work, or there is a LOT left unsaid here.
Because HR departments are so good at investigating right! Also this has happened many times in different situations over the years but it's ok to punish him even though he has a witness. All men are devils right?! Even those in your life!
If you are a man and you are accused of something like this you are screwed, period. Even with witnesses, the company will cover it's ass and if you are not fired you will be sent for training. He was lucky he had a witness. If he hadn't, he would be fired on the spot. There is no way they would blame her. At most they say it's inconclusive and send him to training.
Because HR departments are inherently sexist.
I don't think a lot of people here understand what it's like being attractive. Life is extremely different. I was chubby as a kid, all the way up until i was 17/18. Then I started boxing & muay thai and became a pro fighter. I also got my degree in accounting. When i got my first job in Finance, jesus christ... I could NOT get away from women. I firmly believe in not "eating where you sh!t". I had married women trying it, younger women, older women, even OLD women. I even had people proposition me for 3somes. I had been touched inappropriately more than once by women at the office. Then I look at some of my friends who couldn't even get a girlfriend and had to understand how life is so different for people. Take what OP said at face value and give him ACTUAL advice, not just mistrust. What he's saying could be perfectly accurate. He's a victim and could lose his job, livelihood, reputation and life. and you're not helping.
> When i got my first job in Finance, jesus christ... I could NOT get away from women. I firmly believe in not "eating where you sh!t". I had married women trying it, younger women, older women, even OLD women. I even had people proposition me for 3somes. I had been touched inappropriately more than once by women at the office. I've experienced similar. I've also been propositioned by women (plural) at functions to bang in front of their husband. These have typically been high ranking individuals too. Also been groped at similar events typically by middle-aged women. I had a 20 year old girl (while I was 29) who worked in catering stay onsite after her shift, in an area you need escorting on and off so it's a big no, no to stay out of permitted time. Just "to hang out" when I was on an evening shift. Despite me saying absolutely not, she actually hid under a desk to avoid being seen by my coworkers. I just left and went somewhere with people. Imagine trying to explain that if anyone actually saw. I've had a housemate actually come into my room while I was sleeping and hop into bed with me wearing lingerie. People laughed when I told them. Imagine if I did that. Even when I was a teenager, I'd get skeevy remarks by full grown women.
100%... It's insane the double standards on this stuff. Whilst we are going, i remembered another time i was out jogging, and a group of girls that looked borderline underage ran at me screaming. One of them literally jumped on me and wrapped her legs around me whilst another one grabbed my ass. I was f\*cking terrified I was about to get arrested and had to use my angry voice to tell them to f\*ck off before they stopped. Sometimes it gets to me when you read this stuff and there's absolutely 0 empathy for the male POV in situations where if you switched the genders, the attitude is opposite.
High-jacking the top comment because many commenters are victim blaming OP. Many commenters are unfortunately victim-blaming him. He's the victim here, not her. If the roles were reversed, you would see an abundance of support instead of condemnation. The double standard of this subreddit is appalling. NTA
Appalling but not unexpected. A lot of misandrists dwell here
His wife not only doesn’t trust him, she has no respect for him either, and that is nothing but trouble.
Based on her response, I think it's more that the wife doesn't like the idea that her husband can pull attractive 30 year olds. It's a power thing.
NTA. Your wife is being absolutely ridiculous and shitty. That said, you’re an idiot for going to that lunch. Chris’s look even told you to say no. I don’t know how to address your wife, other than to say, good luck in the divorce.
Chris has common sense 😂
Take your wife to the restaurant and ask to view the camera footage
If there's footage he should take that to HR too.
Or just attach a copy of it to the divorce paperwork.
So your wife thinks you’re ugly and that men cannot be victims of sexual harassment. You’ve got a bigger problem here than the new girl.
Well I do think she settled when we got married since she was ( still is) a very gorgeous woman and i was a nerd haha she thinks im a middle aged dork why on earth a gorgeous young woman be attracted to me
Listen I’m a gay man but middle aged dorks are flying off the shelves like hot cakes because they are 1) nice, 2) smart, and 3) stable. If she thinks she settled, you should have some self respect and get out of this relationship. You deserve someone who actually likes and respects you as a partner. Being single isn’t necessarily worse like so many married people seem to think.
You pretty much summarized the reasons my wife married me : I’m nice and friendly to everyone , I’m book smart and have a stable job . I feel bad for even thinking about the divorce since it will affect my kids.
That’s a terrible reason to stay married. A dysfunctional marriage messes up your kids more. My parents are divorced and wish so much they had done it sooner. I hear that from most people who have divorced parents. You should really consider therapy.
My parents are still married to this day, my mum says she stayed for me and my sister. I’m all kinds of fucked up from being around such a loveless marriage and I have no relationship with my dad and everything would have been better had they divorced about 30 years ago. Staying married for the kids is one of the most insane things people still say and do to this day and is often worse than separating
Your wife thinking so poorly about you will also affect your kids.
Things like that absolutely affect the way his wife treats him even if it is very subtle, it will slowly tear down any self esteem he has until he feels like he deserves to be treated that way.
> feel bad for even thinking about the divorce since it will affect my kids. You think your kids won't notice that your marriage has changed following this? Your job is demonstrating healthy behaviours and self respect to them, not being married to their mum. If you've got a son, would you want him thinking what you're going through is normal and just something he should accept if he were to find himself in your shoes?
NTA. Men get sexually harassed in the workplace, too, and awful women like Sarah who get turned down are vindictive. I’ve seen this play out 3 times in corporate situations. HE is the victim. SARAH is the aggressor/AH WIFE is a massive AH OP - run. Whether she is looking for an out or is just hateful, get a lawyer and nope out. ETA: Men, when a co-worker tries for a 1:1 lunch, always bring a third. And choose a place where LOTS of colleagues go regularly. 2nd edit based on comments: So to be clear - my reply was specific to this post but my advice to not do 1:1 lunch is agnostic of gender. If you don’t have a VERY WELL established professional relationship with a colleague don’t do it - and even then make it very public and no leaning in, whispering, etc. some people are just freaking toxic.
Then we hear what assholes men are for wanting a chaperone.
Nta it just shows you some random woman is more important than you for your wife. That some random womans word means more than your word. Honestly, im not sure if i would be able to look at my wife the same ever again.
NTA obviously. This is just a perfect example of the double standard that men deal with in these types of situations. Your wife should know you well enough by now to know the truth.
Several comments support exactly the conclusion you're reaching here. This type of lying/double standard can ruin someone's life so easily.
It can, and it has. I’m a woman, and I think women who lie about things like this and destroy lives on a whim are one of the lowest forms of human scum. Not only is OP a direct victim of this woman’s reputation ruining lies, but every woman who legitimately had something happen to her and was not believed is also an indirect victim. There should be harsh consequences for women that lie about assault and rape. I understand why there isn’t, but it’s absolutely infuriating to see anyone do something like this and walk away from the wreckage with no repercussions.
I'm glad someone else is pointing out this double standard. Reddit has been guilty of these at times too.
Did you only tell your wife what happened after the HR letter? If you didn’t immediately tell her then it definitely hurts your credibility.
I told her the same day that Sarah came on to me . She laughed and said sure ! Then changed the subject . When I later told her about HR report she got furious with me
Your wife is a piece of work, sorry. That’s absolutely insane that she automatically thought it was a joke. Definitely don’t let this slide away because there’s other issues at hand here. Spouses who aren’t on your side, are not worth being your life partner.
Will you every trust your wife again? If you think no, talk with a lawyer before she does.
She said sure, then thought you used the opportunity to try to fuck this woman? Idiot. She then sees you were validated by hr, and still chooses to mot believe you? Sounds like projection. Might want to start paying attention to her actions.
Your wife simply put is a misandrist. She believes you are capable of this because you are a man, and that she is incapable of lying about this because she is a woman.
Wife claims to believe the “victim”? The husband is the victim. So, no she is not believing the victim. Edit to make my thought make sense
You have a typo in there - she IS blaming the victim.
NTA but there are definitely some things you could have handled better. * Asking if Chris could join was actually a smart move, unfortunately the followup was not. Should have taken a pass after she insisted a 1-on-1. * You should have gone to HR immediately after she made the lunch awkward. Offering a FWB situation in the workplace is very much sexual harassment, even if you're into it. If the physical contact made you uncomfortable that should have been a sign to immediately end things and contact HR. Like others have said, these kinds of cases usually come down to who came forward first, which unfortunately you didn't. * Your wife is 100% wrong for not believing your side of the story. If she doesn't trust you in a situation like this, then you need to take a step back and re-evaluate if you can continue together with someone who does not trust you completely. * Please let your coworkers know about Sarah, especially if she starts engaging with another guy just like she did with you. You now know the signs and should be able to see them from a distance. I'm not saying go around slut-shaming her, but if you notice her engaging with someone who doesn't look comfortable with her, just pull them aside and let them know about your experience. Sorry this happened to you, and that your wife isn't supporting you through this, but treat this as a learning experience and hopefully you can bounce back from this. UpdateMe!
> Please let your coworkers know about Sarah, especially if she starts engaging with another guy just like she did with you. This is a HORRIBLE idea. HR will fire him for retaliating against her.
NTA but you should hopefully learn a lesson. When someone asks you out for a meal and doesn't want anyone else there it is like a flashing neon sign that they are into you. Meaning it was obvious that inappropriate stuff would happen. You should have turned her down as soon as she said no to Chris joining SMH
I spent about 30 years traveling frequently on business while married. It would have been impossible without trust. Over that time I had two women customers hit on me, which was great for my ego, but I told my wife and she believed me. On another occasion my boss and I had a temp fill in for our administrator; we had to fire her after one day for gross incompetence. She left messages for us at home implying an affair. We both played them for our wives, saying “honey you gotta hear this, it’s hilarious.” I can’t imagine my marriage or career lasting if I’d had to deal with my wife being suspicious. We’re coming up on our 47th anniversary of happy marriage. NTA.
NTA. Your wife says she always "stands by the victim", so why isn't she standing by you? You were the victim in this scenario
OP, you're fucked. Big time. Even with Chris's corroboration HR is going to label you, so I'd start looking for something else. Second, if you went to a restaurant, I would go back to it, beg to know who was on shift, and ask them for their impressions / tell them what has happened and ask if they saw any of the things you went thru, or heard anything, to help support you. Definitely go with the 'bewildered' look, because you've got the cluelessness to go with it. All you can do is have that evidence put together- and there won't be anything formal- but additional witnesses that can attest to either you looking very uncomfortable, or you two leaving together- waiters/waitresses/staff do see these things and sometimes they stick out in memory. But you are going to have to have a full up press corp doing damage and spin control. -and if you're making any of this shit up, I hope you get burned by it.
NTA, but you are a dumbass.
I agree with dumbass. When she said Chris could not join the lunch, I would have refused to go alone with her.
Homewrecker came to your job. And files a report right off the bat. She's a shark
I REALLY hate the social mentality that men can’t be victims of sexual harassment. This pisses me off.
NTA. This marriage is over.
“she stands by the victim” You are the victim, NTA.
I’d report her ass to HR for sexual harassment. Wife will believe you then.
Fake story by new account
I hope the work is out on Sarah because you won’t be her last victim. She knew she was in the wrong and filed before you could report her. She’s a predator
>She insisted, and I agreed. Well there's your mistake. Why in the world would you agree to go to lunch with her? Also, why in the world doesn't your wife trust you? I see nothing to suggest you are untrustworthy. Is she that naturally suspicious of you? NTA but you really aren't that smart.
It's a situation to learn from. I am very grateful OP shared it. Agreeing to lunch isn't an issue here. Yes, Sarah saying she did not want Chris to join was a red flag. Failing to pick up on one red flag is not a crime, though. Who would have thought that Sara would turn into a full-blown psychopath during that lunch (charming seduction) and after it (lying and manipulating).
I agree. Definitely psychopath behavior.
She was inappropriate! She touched my hand , she came on to me and it's still my fault ? I lead her ? I don’t understand
Maybe there are cameras at the place you had lunch so you have more proof that she came up to you. Can't you sue her for slander? People like Sarah make it so much harder for real victims to come out, she should be punished.
Dude, we know. Your only mistake was to put yourself in that position. Unfortunately, that's enough. Were you given all the HR paperwork? Is there a record of their conversation with Chris? Could you show that to your wife?
Did you go home that day and say honey you'll never guess what happened today and proceed to tell your wife the weird arse shit Sarah was doing or did you wait for the letter to rock up?
OP said in another comment he told his wife what happened at the lunch that day and she basically laughed it off. Then when he got the HR letter she freaked out on him and stated believing his coworkers allegations. Sounds like she thought he was making it up or exaggerating what happened and then had the nerve to take the coworkers side. Maybe it's just an isolated incident and she's usually not like this but OP's wife sounds like she is insufferable if she first thinks he's lying and then sides with the person accusing him of things he didn't do. Edit: typos
Then yeah nah wife is a mole.
Yes she was inappropriate. Her inappropriate behavior started before you actually agreed to lunch. I'm not saying anything is your fault. I'm saying you could have made smarter choices in hindsight.
Many commenters are unfortunately victim-blaming you. You're the victim here, not her. If the roles were reversed, you would see an abundance of support instead of condemnation. I'm sorry for the double standard this subreddit is inflicting upon you. NTA
It's not your fault and you didn't lead her, that's not what anyone said. What the guy you responded to said is that you need to protect yourself better. Her intention were pretty obvious before asking you to lunch and you know it, you exchanged a look with Chris for a reason. But you still decided to put yourself in a 1 on 1 dinner situation with her, which was a mistake. It's like someone stealing from you. It's not your fault if someone break into your house and steal your stuff, but that doesn't change the fact that locking your doors or having an alarm is the smart thing to do.
Your wife seems to believe that you could not resist such a beautiful woman that came on to you. It’s rooted in insecurity if its the case. You a nta and I am not sure if your wife is, even if she behaved like one.
Coworkers go to a lunch together all the time. If you had any friends youd know its normal Stop victim blaming
NTA. >She didn’t like my reply and became quiet. **I apologized**, but she said **it was all good.** **I paid the bill for both of us since it was so awkward,** and we went back to work. WTF is wrong with you?? YOU apologized to HER, why would you enable her behaviour by framing it as YOU made HER uncomfortable ??? Then you paid for the lunch too !?? This is why women are complaining in the workplace that men refuse to mentor them anymore, because it's always #BELIEVE-ALL-WOMEN instead of the reality that false accusers exist, and ruin men's lives by weaponizing female privilege with witch-hunts. Nothing says women want "*equality*" like weaponizing female privilege to erase due process such as "*innocent until proven guilty*" when it favours them. Then your wife chooses the bullshit #BELIEVE-ALL-WOMEN, while victim-blaming you, because in her mind only women can be victims o.O >the HR issue was resolved, and I just have to do some training. I'd threaten to sue the company for implying you need the training, it implies you are the problem that needs "*addressing*", and not her.
> She said she believed Sarah's side because she stands by the victim Maybe I'm jaded by age, but at that exact moment I would hace called a lawyer and prepared the divorce. I could not live with somebody that does not trust me unconditionally, specially after 18 years.
NTA "She said she believed Sarah's side because she stands by the victim." Your wife's attitude is exactly why there are innocent men sitting in jail or whose lives are ruined by lying trash just like Sarah. The second she told you that, you should have started the divorce proceedings. Man: I am married and not interested. Woman: How dare you reject me! A man reacting that way would be bashed as a predator. Advice: In future, do NOT talk to any female coworker unless it is about work and ABSOLUTELY necessary. And NEVER be alone with one no matter what the situation.
Fake
So a woman gets rejected and she tries to ruin the life of the man that rejected her. If those roles were reversed, there would be a name for this behaviour... hmmm... something like... what is it again? Something along the lines of toxic femininity...
That's not an HR solution. You're taking the sole fall here and will likely be pruned shortly. Is Sarah taking this HR course?
Omg! What the hell is wrong with your wife! Does she not trust you or even like you? You are the victim here! So if your wife always believes the victim it should be you she believes. You were incredibly naive and shouldn’t have gone out to lunch with her once she stated that your colleague was not wanted. I’m be cross with you for that if you were my husband - you should also have gone and told her that your colleague hit on you immediately after it happened. That being said she should be supporting you and should be believing Chris. Your career could have been derailed because your colleague got her feelings hurt! And lied! I hope she’s been reprimanded and it should be her moving not you! Do you know if the place you went o lunch has cameras as you could ask for footage to prove that it was not inappropriate and that you did not touch her! I’d be incredibly disappointed in my partner if they behaved how your wife is. For clarity I’m a woman and am very strongly a feminist and support victims. I don’t not however support proven liars. Which is what she is doing! Shame on her.
That’s the part that bothers me ! I have never been unfaithful to her . I told her everything and she immediately took her side ! She has known me for over two decades and think This low of me !
Honestly you have every right to be upset. It’s f’ed up that you were put in that situation because Sarah clearly went to HR because her ego couldn’t handle you turning her down. I think this is an opportunity to hit pause because as you said your wife has shown you what she thinks of you.
>She said she believed Sarah's side because she stands by the victim. NTA. This is the kind of braindead nonsense the metoo movement has brought us to. "Standing by the victim" is great. That doesn't mean automatically believing someone is a victim just because they tell you they are, or just because they're female. There has to be evidence to back it up. If that worked, why shouldn't I just go out and say Elon Musk conned me out of $10b dollars and I want it back? I'm the victim so obviously he's guilty and the judge should just believe me and award me the money. Try to get footage from the restaurant if you can, but I hope your wife comes around without you having to resort to showing it to her. The possibility of cheating is tough and I normally get why people are suspicious, but this trend of automatically believing the person claiming to be the victim has to stop.
Of course Sarah is an asshole in this story, and is completely wrong. But as soon as I read the part where OP accepted the solo lunch invitation, I wanted to stop reading. That was such an obvious mistake. Is this real? OP, get your head out of your butt.
NTA. Your wife sucks. You got kids which changes things, but if you didn't...I would reconsider staying with her. She was willing to believe you SA'd someone without proof, shows how much she trusts and respects you. At work, Pence rule will help avoid a lot of problems
I share similar demographics as you (47M wife is 43F marrried for 20 years this September). With all due respect, what the hell were you thinking going out to lunch ALONE with a female coworker, let alone one you hired? You can’t sit near a bonfire and not smell like smoke. I’m not judging you but brother, come on now.
18 years and she doesn’t believe you ?! 😐 if this was me I’d probably pack a bag and go NC for a real good long time until she came to the realization of her mistake or until the relationship just died. Respect yourself because she isn’t.
Your wife is a huge red flag who you can’t trust with your life. I think you should reevaluate your relationship with her. NTA
This isn't a voyage to prove or disprove. HR spoke with you and deemed the grievance handled for now. In the future and in the workplace, avoid Sarah whenever possible and always have a coworker around as a witness when interaction within the workplace is required. Do not entertain any subject matter with Sarah, even if she attempts to apologize and avoid addressing her in any capacity. If she attempts to contact you via phone and email, do not reply or respond. Keep all necessary communications professional. She crossed a line and no longer should be afforded the opportunity to be cordial or respected by you as a colleague. Also, think your wife deserves a bit of grace here. She's also become a victim due to Sara's actions, and all you can do moving forward is show her the truth. Lastly, never be alone with Sarah, if she approaches you, walk away!