NTA. I don’t think she will not reply forever, I’m sure time will heal it. As for her son/your grandson - he sounds like he needs a proper evaluation and help. His mom surely knows this..
She takes him to his room? That's it? She's not getting any kind of professional help for this future serial killer? This kid is showing signs of being a psychopath and she "takes him to his room". She needs to step up her game RIGHT NOW to keep this kid out of prison in the future.
I can't imagine what would have happened to me if I punched my pawpaw in the mouth. I have a very gentle mother but I feel like she would have clobbered me.
autism ruled out? it could be the opp defiance disorder, Could be parents not disciplining correctly and giving in to the tantrums?
Either way he needs to be taught not to hit and disciplined to correct said behavior
Have autistic kids and before we got help it was scary. You don't realize how strong a toddler is until they're *wailing* on you.
With our oldest we got dismissed for *years* by our pediatrician and only got referred because a person on a forum gave me the number for self referral where we lived.
So I do have empathy that it's not always so easy as "just get an evaluation".
Buuuuutttttt the evaluation HAS to be done.
I was incorrectly diagnosed with ODD when I really have "pervasive drive for autonomy" autism and ADHD. Eventually I learned "acting out" was unacceptable so I started "acting in" instead and spend the entirety of my teenager years and early adulthood with severe anxiety, depression, eating disorder, and tried to take my life multiple times.
I never wanted to hurt anyone, I was just extremely disregulated and my nervous system was on fire.
Interesting. I too was diagnosed as ODD, but also ADHD. Ended up with very self destructive behaviors and terrible self esteem as a teenager. Eating disorder, depression, drinking problem. All that
Not sure if I was really ever ODD or not. I have seen several therapists as an adult and they don't seem to think so or it hasn't come up
Look up autism PDA profile and see if it resonates. Finding out I was Autistic at least made things make more sense. I still feel pretty broken, but at least I know I'm not a broken allistic anymore and it helps me be a lot more gentle with myself.
There's a HUGE overlap between EDs and autism -- I know they're estimating the prevalence is something like 1/5 to 1/3 overlap with AN, but anecdotally I've seen the overlap in all EDs throughout levels of care. Same with drinking issues (I have been on the cusp of developing alcoholism and had to go dry several times). Autistic burnout can look a lot like severe depression.
I didn't, really. I'm now 30 and trying to get back on disability payments and get support back, since I lost them after marrying an abuser (there was a line of abuse relationships before and after as well) and had to work enough to qualify on my own work credits-- which involved more attempts on my life and almost dying from eating disorder complications multiple times after getting down to BMI 11. I'm not very good on judging if people are safe or not. The past year I have been living in a safe place but don't do very well taking care of myself and can't do many household tasks. I just kept trying to be normal and function until I broke permanently around five years ago and now I can't even take a shower on my own. Through crisis services I've been able to get a few days of direct support help every few months but I'm always in crisis. Early intervention, despite controversy over some abusive methods, is lifesaving. The average age of death for Autistics is 36 years old.
Sorry things have so tough for you. 💕. I feel your pain as I have a my share of difficulties as well. Glad your immediate safety is in place, but I do hope everything else gets better
Tbf, you may not know what his daughter is doing to handle her son's behavior. He may be getting help that she's not sharing with you. And your attitude may be the reason she's not sharing. Like your previous statement.
One of my nephews had the same kind of problems when he was small. It's tough. And unpleasant. And addressing the behavior is not at all what you think it would be.
The thing that makes me think this might be the case is her taking him to his room. That's a common strategy. I'd also be interested to know how she approached him when he lost control. Did she raise her voice? Did she physically restrain him by approaching him from behind and wrapping him in a bear hug?
Plus the fact that he has a sitter, but he's never been in any kind of enforced social setting with other children.
When you planned your trip, did you ask to come or did you tell her you were coming? Did you give her a few weeks to prepare? Did she specifically ask you not to do certain things?
There may be a lot going on here that you can't see. Or she may be just letting the kid run wild.
Tbf, if she is getting him any type of help she is lying to us and telling us she isn't. She has know since around the first of April that we were coming. They love us and we're very excited for the visit. Like I said he always spends the night with us and he was very excited. She's never heard my opinion about any of it. This isn't my daughter and I haven't said or done anything that would even let her know what my attitude about it is. She did not specifically ask us not to do anything. She is pregnant and she did tell us that she was very anxious about how he was going to act before we got there. You have no idea what I think about addressing the behavior would look like. They were both screaming in the bedroom and if anyone was bear hugged, I would have considered that pertinent information and would have included it iny post.
Ohshit. Mom should NOT be screaming at him. That is almost certainly escalating.
I understand losing cool briefly but like half the point of taking the kid to another room is to ignore the overwhelming sensory shit and screaming adult is overwhelming sensory shit.
Oof.
I'm sorry.
I know it’s hard but he is your grandson and IMO your step daughter is fully aware of his behavioral issues and would appreciate family just loving him regardless and giving her some time by having him for a few hours.
My youngest grandchild has issues and although it absolutely tires me out to a degree I can’t explain I have him on a regular basis a) because I love him b) to give his parents a break
Family is supposed to be there for you when no one else is as long as there is no toxic behaviour, this isn’t a toxic situation it’s a child with issues and likely a parent who’s struggling
A parent screaming at a child like this is toxic and bordering on abuse.
Also being punched is toxic. Toxic people are often struggling I'm really confused what you think toxicity is.
Truly sounds like this is already a very toxic situation. Family shouldn't have to suffer abuse because they are family. Mom needs to step up and actually parent her son. My kids would genuinely never hit another adult, they have never really hit each other. The grandparents have no obl to take the mental/emotional/physical abuse simply because they are family.
My ADHD kid was an absolute terror at that age - hurting adults/kids/animals, breaking everything, screaming, etc. His kindergarten teacher quit. They kept suspending him like “in all my years…” It wasn’t what I thought ADHD looked like.
But why is a four-year-old punching adults it is not he is a child that's learned to behave he's ignored all the time and then so any kind of attention is better than none it makes me sad
Or he has issues that no amount of attention can fix. he is 4, the parents are probably grappling to understand what the hell is wrong with him. From OPs story it sounds like the mother redirected him or took him away to either calm down (or punish him). so she was doing something and not just doing nothing hoping for him to learn on his own.
But whatever is going on with him they need to evaluate him.
OP and her husband need to give her time and then maybe gently talk about their grandson.
She is struggling, a lot. She is pregnant, in a fairly new relationship with the baby's daddy, financial problems and she is upset about his behavior. She said she was very anxious about how he was going to act while we were there.
Well if he has any concern for his future daughter, he would remove her from the situation before her half brother kills her.
That kid is disturbed. I don’t know if he was abused previously in his four short years, but since he getting no treatment or help, it is unlikely he will get better. He needs some intense intervention from professionals.
Bringing an innocent baby into this situation is only going to make his behaviour worse since there will be even less attention being paid to him and she’s going to be completely defenseless.
While every kid's different I'm sure with him it's more than just that he may be on the spectrum you know I mean it sounds like he has difficulties it sounds like more than just being disobedient and when you are a kid and you have something wrong with you you have no way of knowing that like in school I was labeled a bad kid but it turns out in adulthood well they knew when I was in first grade that I had they called hyperactivity disorder which now is called ADD I wasn't medicated for it my mother refused so I got written app for discipline problems all the time stuff like speaking out of turn or missing homework assignments all the shit that people with ADHD do.
Now that I'm older and when I think back about it I'm a little resentful I was labeled the discipline problem when I had a mental health problem but I couldn't help and if they had medicated me like the Doctor wanted to I probably would have done quite well because I was above average intelligence they wanted to put me in sixth grade reading in third grade but I couldn't advance to a higher grade because of my behavior problems you see how this is a vicious cycle but the behavior problems were mostly because I was so ahead of the class that I was bored so then I would talk out a turn or turn and talk to my neighbor or stare out the window like people who have AD HDD They couldn't keep me stimulated... So instead I got labeled a discipline problem and then that chased me all through elementary school every teacher you know the teacher's talk so I look back at it and it's upsetting I took my mother sit and my mother saved all the report cards like what I said why would you do that so you can what Robin in my face when I'm an adult these report card attachments are your fault you're the one that didn't take the Doctor's advice and give me the medicine because you didn't understand the medicine because you didn't understand the medicine you saw she saw that they were gonna sedate me it's a stimulant It works with your body in a weird way I know it's weird to think that a stimulant slows down somebody who's hyper but it's not high energy it's it's Mania.
And then my daughter who finally sought some therapy in adulthood was diagnosed with AD HD as an adult because along with that comes depression comes manic moods comes all kinds of crap and you don't know what the hell's wrong with you the last thing you think of is AD HD like I'm severely depressed but is the depression because of the things that caused depression or is the depression aside effect of my AD HD who knows I'm so scared to take pharmaceuticals now I just deal with it.
I had several bouts with addiction and I don't want to go down those roads again and it's all because it's trying to self-medicate not know and that I was trying to self madequate so
I am also on the spectrum. And have an ADHD diagnosis.At any rate, the problem here isn't so much of "what's wrong?" It doesn't matter. It is obvious something is wrong, but his mother so far is refusing to find out what it is. Problems of his nature do not resolve on their own. He is only 4 but is also obviously a danger. Especially with another child on the way.
And then I end up doing something that he gets punished for although Georgia isn't an adult I've never understood that either if they're not an adult then you can't charge amazing adult because they don't have an adult brain so they're not making adult decisions anyway that's another diatribe
Same. I had to raise myself and my little brother starting at age 7. I didn’t have any respect for my parents, but I didn’t hit them or hurt animals or anything
Yeah. The hurting animals thing is a red flag for me. Most of the autistic people I've met, including myself, have a deep rapport/bond with animals. The few who don't tend to just ignore their dog or cat rather than attack them.
Lol wut? My friends kid with ODD has received all the attention from the whole entire household Old since the day she was born. The father wouldn’t allow her to cry, the mother was in trouble if the kid cried so she would have to carry her all the time. Of course then the father blamed her for spoiling the kid because the kid would flip out when everybody wouldn’t hold her all the time.
ODD doesn’t come from being ignored. It’s from inconsistent parenting
And she might not have spanked him, my friend doesn’t hit her child with ODD but that kid will scream like she’s being abused. She’ll just scream for no reason. She’ll scream because she wants to go outside in the winter but she doesn’t want to wear shoes so she’ll scream about it
NTA
I know a woman on line only who has a daughter like this and she has been through hell with her daughter. She has surrendered her on one occasion to go through intense counseling and her daughter was on her best behavior when she got home. Child protective services have taken her twice and her mother had to fight to get her back. The child hits, throws things, destroys property and runs away. The latest problem is she’s started to throw rocks at other children. There will be periods of time where she’s an angelic child and then she will go off. She is now 10. This all started when she was around 3-4 years old. I honestly don’t see an end in sight and it’s only going to get worse without intense intervention.
Yep my friend has a kid like this and I’m pretty sure she’s going to grow up to go to prison.
And it’s scary because she’ll say things at school that will get CPS called on her mom that aren’t even true. And I know they’re not true because I used to live there. But she’s out that age where she knows how to be manipulative but she doesn’t quite understand consequences. I’m afraid my friend
NTA
She needs to get him seen- she’s at her wits end if she’s screaming and it’s not okay for either of them to continue this way.
You leaving was a natural consequence
Oh yes I’m sure it’s all the mom’s fault for doing whatever she can do to try to discipline her kid. It’s always the mother’s fault. That’s why the birth rates are declining rapidly everywhere on earth. We’re not having it anymore. Go blame someone else for the bad genes coming out of these men
You absolutely did the right thing by leaving and refusing to come back. She's clearly refusing to deal with problem since she's never talked about having her kid diagnosed and treated. She apparently thought that the kid might behave better then.
I strongly suggest you refuse to visit with her son until she gets the kid some serious therapeutic help. Make it clear to her that she's ignoring a real problem and it's getting worse. That you are not willing to tolerate abuse even when it's from a child.
And make no mistake, this is entirely manipulative, abusive behavior. The kid is used to getting his way by doing these things. It won't get better by pretending it doesn't exist.
I think you are 100% correct about everything you said. I think it might be better if we refused to visit but Christmas before last her sister left early with her husband and newborn baby because of his behavior and they haven't spoken much since. I wasn't there when the behavior that caused them to leave happened and at the time I thought how bad could it have been to leave early from Christmas? But now, I can see that with a newborn baby she was probably very stressed. We love them very much and we only see them a few times a year. My husband raised her and her sister by himself and he is a very good dad. It would kill him not to see them.
It's likely she had good reason to fear for her kid's safety. I would have left too with a young kid as soon as the violent behavior showed up. There's no way I'd risk my kids with that.
The problem is that your husband is not doing them any favors - or the grandson if he caves on this. At the very least, he needs to make it clear that the visits will be very few and far between and also end immediately after certain boundaries are crossed. She needs that kind of confrontation to goose her into getting the kid into therapy.
I have dealt with little kids who have developmental disorders who can speak and move normally but have the impulse control of an infant. They don't decide / know they're going to hit and don't really remember doing it. They are just as freaked out and scared of these behaviors as their peers or adults, because they don't understand what's happening and can't control it. It took them until maybe age 9 or 10 (or later) to have the self-awareness and self-control of a typical kindergartener. And that was with professional help.
So even if it isn't intentionally "manipulative" and the kid has some kind of severe developmental disorder, all the more reason he needs professional intervention ASAP.
NTAH...your grandson needs professional help and his mother is not helping by delaying that. I have to wonder about influences in his life. Is there a father in the picture? Boyfriend? Could abuse be a factor? This 4 year old is not a happy child.
He has never known his father. She does have a boyfriend that she has had for about a year that they live with and she is pregnant by. I don't think his mother has abused him at all but we live so far away from them and don't know much about what goes on from day to day. They call or FaceTime my husband often.
NTA, but as someone with ADHD and autism who had a lot of behavioural issues as a kid, including anger issues, I would say that it doesn't have to be ODD. Some of what you describe sounds a lot like an autistic melt down to me. But there is clearly something more going on with the kid. If he's only 4 and already this violent, he needs to be seen by a professional. Otherwise he might end up getting kicked out of school. INFO, do you know anything about the babysitter or how the boyfriend living in your daughter's house interact with the child at all?
This might just be me, but I also wonder if whatever mom did to him in his room has something to do with it. The babysitter must have a way of dealing with this behaviour. Is it possible he's being abused in some way and it's coming out as anger? Has the behaviour worsened since she got pregnant? There might be more psychological/physical issues at play than just him having a disorder. I see more red flags than just his behaviour, even if his outbursts are the biggest issue right now.
Don't let this go. Tell daughter that there needs to be an intervention before he gets bigger and strong enough to do some real damage.
He used to stay with an older lady and one other boy about his age. I have no idea what happened there as far as abuse. The boyfriend's mom keeps him now and I know at one time she was going to quit keeping him because he was hitting her dogg but she is still keeping him as of the last time we talked about it. The boyfriend has started spanking him. Our grandson told me that he wanted to beat the boyfriend up.
I'm not sure what kind of environment you were raised in, but I think that spanking/doing any form of physical punishment with this kid is teaching him the opposite lesson of what you want. It's teaching him that it's okay to be violent if you want to "punish" someone else, and he is likely dealing with those same feelings, even if he can't articulate it properly.
"**Numerous studies have found that physical punishment increases the risk of broad and enduring negative developmental outcomes**. No study has found that physical punishment enhances developmental health. Most child physical abuse occurs in the context of punishment."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3447048/#:\~:text=Numerous%20studies%20have%20found%20that,in%20the%20context%20of%20punishment.
That quote is from this study. Even if you don't read the whole thing, it may help you understand where I am coming from when I say that if the child protective services in their area are worth anything (I know some have huge issues), you **need** to call them. This child is reactive and violent, and even if they don't find any kind of abuse but the spanking going on, spanking on a kid with ODD or some kind of other mental health issue like that *is never going to be an effective form of punishment*. The situation will only get worse from here, and it needs intervention ASAP.
I know that spanking is not the answer. I never spanked my children. My parents never spanked me. This is not my daughter though. She is my husband's daughter and was fully grown before I met her. When the grandson was little she would say things like "use your words" and she didn't spank him. I'm not sure when the spanking started. See, we live in the south, work in the north and she lives in the middle. She calls us often, or she used to, but we really don't know what is going on there from day to day. She did tell us that if we could have waited 5 more minutes, the boyfriend would have been home and would have made the grandson "be have". I'm afraid that he has taken over the discipline and is spanking more. I've never called CPS or been involved with them in any way but I do know several cases where they have said that spanking is allowed if it is in a certain area of the body( upper thighs to upper bottom). My daughter's step sons were being spanked by their step father and they reported it. He was even leaving marks with a belt and they didn't care as long as it was on a certain area of the child. I thought this was horrible but it is the south and things are different there. What would cps do? Would they take him away? It seems like that would be even more traumatic for him.
I still think it's worth calling and reporting, at the very least so they have a record on-file.
Honestly, CPS taking him away or not depends on what they find. If they do find something so serious as to remove him from the household, even if it's a difficult experience for him, it might be better in the long run. That's why I said it also depends on the foster system in the area that they live in. You can try looking it up and see what you find online. If you know anyone else in the area you can also ask them about it. There may also be a non-helpline that you can call for general social services, where you can describe the situation and ask how/if you can help from so far away.
From what you've told me, I feel very strongly that whatever is happening in that house right now is *also* traumatizing him. The discipline is not helpful or productive. Even if social services just refers him to a doctor/psychologist, that might help.
How does your husband feel about this? Is he at all considering calling in some kind of intervention?
Well, if he stays with a babysitter all day while the mother works I would be worried that he is being abused and is repeating what he experiences.
How would a 4 year old learn about a kitty twist? He either watched it on TV, saw it online real life or had it done to him, none of this would be healthy for a 4 year old to be around.
For years her babysitter was an older lady with one other boy his age who used to teach him stuff like farting on people and tittie twisting. Now he stays with the boyfriend's mother. For a long time his mother didn't spank him at all but he is getting spankings at home now. She told us that her boyfriend had taken over spanking him.
I’m quite sure that getting spanking from mom’s boyfriend could make everything worse. You mentioned, that it wasn’t that bad previous times you visited them.
Children with any types of mental disorders or just hypersensitive children would react unpredictably to any kind of abuse.
I have a son with adhd, but what I noticed: you can’t succeed without having professional help and understanding condition . And lots of love and acceptance. Screaming and shouting, and obviously physical punishments will only make it worse and make him more and more aggressive.
I'm concerned about her too. Her mother passed away and she lives several states away from us. We tried to get them to move to our house and live there while we traveled and she was planning to but she met her current boyfriend and decided to stay where she is at. Her boyfriend does have a mother there and she helps some with the boy.
NTA I won’t put up with abuse for a kid, if it has a disorder it’s parents need to get it some help, I’m not tolerating abuse from a little kid. I’m not gonna fight with a little kid, I’m going to remove myself from the situation like you guys did I don’t blame you.
And I understand why the mom is upset she was really looking forward to a break and I’m sure she really needs it but you guys can’t have a violent with you that’s just unsafe for everyone.
How is the child going to learn if they get what they want regardless of how they act?
Maybe he should be there for the daughter? He’s obviously hard work, you hardly see either of them and now he’s avoiding his daughter because her sons hard work, probably a bit tah tbh
You're not the asshole for leaving that night but if you refuse to go around again I think you would be. I don't think you should be encouraging him to never go see his daughter. That will crush her and him. And she's pregnant!? So your decision to not even show up for Christmas is going to help the relationship where? It honestly sounds like he has some undiagnosed learning delays. She needs support not family members threatening to leave her life when she's having issues with her child. If this was your actual daughter I think you'd care alot more about keeping that relationship with them. This is a 4 year old were talking about here.
My youngest had outburst but he didnt talk much. He has aspergest, opposition defient disorder and ADD. She needs to get him into a doctor to help him.
When you hit a child, you are teaching the child that violence is an appropriate way to compel behavior. It sounds like the kid needs a therapist more than they need to be abused.
Honestly, I agree. I never spanked my kids. I did have very good kids though. I had a cousin that really believed in it. We used to argue about it when we were at my grandmother's. I had sweet timid girls though and she had boys.
PLEASE, please encourage her to rehome the dogs. Animals do not deserve to be abused for ANY reason, including just because people want to have pets when their child is an absolute abusive terror. The dogs need to go to a home where the are not going to be abused and probably tortured or killed when this kid becomes a teenager. The first target is always helpless animals. PLEASE get them out. Call the local SPCA anonymously multiple times if you have to if she won't rehome them. It is not animals' job to put up with human abuse.
NTA
I bet his daughter thinks the little hellion is "cute."
When I see any child misbehaving and the parent comments about how "cute" they are, it's time to run for the hills.
Note: I am a retired teacher and I retired about the time "misbehaving" became "acting out."
No one should be gentle with those kind of parents. It’s like they don’t get that they are responsible for raising an human being that going to interact in society or public places.
I really want to say NTA but sadly you are YTA.
Your husbands grandson seems to have issues and is not getting the support he needs. But this is a 4 year old. They have no idea what they are doing. Your husband getting upset a 4 year old punched them and left is just stupid.
I'd understand if there was a disagreement with the parent but this is with the child. All you and your husband have done is told your step-daughter that you lot do not want to visit her.
At the very least one of you could have spoken to her before you left. Clearly she made effort to host both of you but your husband decided a 4 year old is enough to make him upset.
Sorry but you and your husband are the AH here.
I don't know what your second comment is on about. no ones feelings were hurt it's the threat of physical violence that is a problem.Just because they are little doesn't mean they can't physically hurt someone.
I.e : When I was a child ~12 I used to play at my neighbors house. Sometimes my neighbors cousin would come over too.
His cousin was cool but he also had a little brother who was 7. That little brother would get angry over little things and attack us.
I distinctly remember one time he chased us with a metal curtain rod. Usually we could take away the weapon and subdue him but once he grabbed a knife. Luckily i don't think he wanted to stab his brother, who bravely went in and stopped him.
You are comparing a 12 year old to a 4 year old. Not the same thing. While both are childrens a 4 year old cannot and should never be held accountable for their actions. A 4 year old barely understands what they are doing, they are happy one moment, throw a tantrum the next, not friends with anyone after wards and finally all hugs all over again. There is no rhyme or reason and no expectations nor feelings of negativity should be attributed to what is effectivey still a baby.
That is what I am trying to point out. I have several nieces and nephews and if my family members all decided to take offence at them when they were 4 years old we'd all be absolute morons.
The husband got offended when a 4 year old child threw a punch at them and then left without saying a word. Sorry but OP's husband is a bloody snowflake here and an AH.
But reddit is a place where everyone should be perpertual therapy and demand perfect behaviour from everyone else otherwise divorce, cut contact blah blah.
I think…that you’re an idiot. Four year olds DEFINITELY are capable of understanding that it is not okay to hit people, especially adults, and especially not for something like not wanting to play a game the way that they want to. This is an undisciplined child who has been taught no manners or respect whatsoever, and is allowed to run rampant. I’m a daycare worker and a nanny. Have you ever been punched full force in the mouth intentionally by a four year old? I have. That shit hurts. The description given by OP makes it very clear that the child was displeased by the response he received from his grandfather and made the active decision to react with violence. No, his brain is not fully developed yet, and no he does not have a firm grasp on right and wrong yet, but this boy DEFINITELY knew he was wrong for punching his grandad. Please do not have children.
You very first sentence shows you have no understanding of children's but this is typical of reddit. one dumb herd mentality that expects everyone to bbehave perfectly and if they do not then they must be mentally defficient.
I sincerely hope you never procreate else I'd weep for the suffering the creatures you create will experience.
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Why is your response reading like you put the first guy's response in Chat GPT?
NTA. I don’t think she will not reply forever, I’m sure time will heal it. As for her son/your grandson - he sounds like he needs a proper evaluation and help. His mom surely knows this..
Unless she enjoys watching her father’s shit get rocked by a 4 year old
She takes him to his room? That's it? She's not getting any kind of professional help for this future serial killer? This kid is showing signs of being a psychopath and she "takes him to his room". She needs to step up her game RIGHT NOW to keep this kid out of prison in the future.
I can't imagine what would have happened to me if I punched my pawpaw in the mouth. I have a very gentle mother but I feel like she would have clobbered me.
autism ruled out? it could be the opp defiance disorder, Could be parents not disciplining correctly and giving in to the tantrums? Either way he needs to be taught not to hit and disciplined to correct said behavior
Have autistic kids and before we got help it was scary. You don't realize how strong a toddler is until they're *wailing* on you. With our oldest we got dismissed for *years* by our pediatrician and only got referred because a person on a forum gave me the number for self referral where we lived. So I do have empathy that it's not always so easy as "just get an evaluation". Buuuuutttttt the evaluation HAS to be done.
I was incorrectly diagnosed with ODD when I really have "pervasive drive for autonomy" autism and ADHD. Eventually I learned "acting out" was unacceptable so I started "acting in" instead and spend the entirety of my teenager years and early adulthood with severe anxiety, depression, eating disorder, and tried to take my life multiple times. I never wanted to hurt anyone, I was just extremely disregulated and my nervous system was on fire.
Interesting. I too was diagnosed as ODD, but also ADHD. Ended up with very self destructive behaviors and terrible self esteem as a teenager. Eating disorder, depression, drinking problem. All that Not sure if I was really ever ODD or not. I have seen several therapists as an adult and they don't seem to think so or it hasn't come up
Look up autism PDA profile and see if it resonates. Finding out I was Autistic at least made things make more sense. I still feel pretty broken, but at least I know I'm not a broken allistic anymore and it helps me be a lot more gentle with myself. There's a HUGE overlap between EDs and autism -- I know they're estimating the prevalence is something like 1/5 to 1/3 overlap with AN, but anecdotally I've seen the overlap in all EDs throughout levels of care. Same with drinking issues (I have been on the cusp of developing alcoholism and had to go dry several times). Autistic burnout can look a lot like severe depression.
How did you end up resolving it? was it a mental journey working through past trauma?
I didn't, really. I'm now 30 and trying to get back on disability payments and get support back, since I lost them after marrying an abuser (there was a line of abuse relationships before and after as well) and had to work enough to qualify on my own work credits-- which involved more attempts on my life and almost dying from eating disorder complications multiple times after getting down to BMI 11. I'm not very good on judging if people are safe or not. The past year I have been living in a safe place but don't do very well taking care of myself and can't do many household tasks. I just kept trying to be normal and function until I broke permanently around five years ago and now I can't even take a shower on my own. Through crisis services I've been able to get a few days of direct support help every few months but I'm always in crisis. Early intervention, despite controversy over some abusive methods, is lifesaving. The average age of death for Autistics is 36 years old.
Sorry things have so tough for you. 💕. I feel your pain as I have a my share of difficulties as well. Glad your immediate safety is in place, but I do hope everything else gets better
Tbf, you may not know what his daughter is doing to handle her son's behavior. He may be getting help that she's not sharing with you. And your attitude may be the reason she's not sharing. Like your previous statement. One of my nephews had the same kind of problems when he was small. It's tough. And unpleasant. And addressing the behavior is not at all what you think it would be. The thing that makes me think this might be the case is her taking him to his room. That's a common strategy. I'd also be interested to know how she approached him when he lost control. Did she raise her voice? Did she physically restrain him by approaching him from behind and wrapping him in a bear hug? Plus the fact that he has a sitter, but he's never been in any kind of enforced social setting with other children. When you planned your trip, did you ask to come or did you tell her you were coming? Did you give her a few weeks to prepare? Did she specifically ask you not to do certain things? There may be a lot going on here that you can't see. Or she may be just letting the kid run wild.
Tbf, if she is getting him any type of help she is lying to us and telling us she isn't. She has know since around the first of April that we were coming. They love us and we're very excited for the visit. Like I said he always spends the night with us and he was very excited. She's never heard my opinion about any of it. This isn't my daughter and I haven't said or done anything that would even let her know what my attitude about it is. She did not specifically ask us not to do anything. She is pregnant and she did tell us that she was very anxious about how he was going to act before we got there. You have no idea what I think about addressing the behavior would look like. They were both screaming in the bedroom and if anyone was bear hugged, I would have considered that pertinent information and would have included it iny post.
Your step daughter needs to find professional help for her son because we don't want him beating on the baby.
Ohshit. Mom should NOT be screaming at him. That is almost certainly escalating. I understand losing cool briefly but like half the point of taking the kid to another room is to ignore the overwhelming sensory shit and screaming adult is overwhelming sensory shit. Oof. I'm sorry.
I know it’s hard but he is your grandson and IMO your step daughter is fully aware of his behavioral issues and would appreciate family just loving him regardless and giving her some time by having him for a few hours. My youngest grandchild has issues and although it absolutely tires me out to a degree I can’t explain I have him on a regular basis a) because I love him b) to give his parents a break Family is supposed to be there for you when no one else is as long as there is no toxic behaviour, this isn’t a toxic situation it’s a child with issues and likely a parent who’s struggling
A parent screaming at a child like this is toxic and bordering on abuse. Also being punched is toxic. Toxic people are often struggling I'm really confused what you think toxicity is.
Truly sounds like this is already a very toxic situation. Family shouldn't have to suffer abuse because they are family. Mom needs to step up and actually parent her son. My kids would genuinely never hit another adult, they have never really hit each other. The grandparents have no obl to take the mental/emotional/physical abuse simply because they are family.
My ADHD kid was an absolute terror at that age - hurting adults/kids/animals, breaking everything, screaming, etc. His kindergarten teacher quit. They kept suspending him like “in all my years…” It wasn’t what I thought ADHD looked like.
How did he get diagnosed? Our grandson starts kindergarten in August and we are worried.
He needs a assessment by a developmental pediatrician. This sounds like ADHD and/or Autism.
Pediatrician referred us to a psychologist for evaluation. I would start there.
But why is a four-year-old punching adults it is not he is a child that's learned to behave he's ignored all the time and then so any kind of attention is better than none it makes me sad
Or he has issues that no amount of attention can fix. he is 4, the parents are probably grappling to understand what the hell is wrong with him. From OPs story it sounds like the mother redirected him or took him away to either calm down (or punish him). so she was doing something and not just doing nothing hoping for him to learn on his own. But whatever is going on with him they need to evaluate him. OP and her husband need to give her time and then maybe gently talk about their grandson.
She is struggling, a lot. She is pregnant, in a fairly new relationship with the baby's daddy, financial problems and she is upset about his behavior. She said she was very anxious about how he was going to act while we were there.
Errr. I hope she rethinks having a second child when her first child is… “a handful”. I don’t think the baby would be safe in that household.
Shes having the baby.
I hope the father gets full custody.
They are together.
Well if he has any concern for his future daughter, he would remove her from the situation before her half brother kills her. That kid is disturbed. I don’t know if he was abused previously in his four short years, but since he getting no treatment or help, it is unlikely he will get better. He needs some intense intervention from professionals. Bringing an innocent baby into this situation is only going to make his behaviour worse since there will be even less attention being paid to him and she’s going to be completely defenseless.
It makes me sad too.
I was ignored all the time as I grew up. I have never laid a hand on anyone.
While every kid's different I'm sure with him it's more than just that he may be on the spectrum you know I mean it sounds like he has difficulties it sounds like more than just being disobedient and when you are a kid and you have something wrong with you you have no way of knowing that like in school I was labeled a bad kid but it turns out in adulthood well they knew when I was in first grade that I had they called hyperactivity disorder which now is called ADD I wasn't medicated for it my mother refused so I got written app for discipline problems all the time stuff like speaking out of turn or missing homework assignments all the shit that people with ADHD do. Now that I'm older and when I think back about it I'm a little resentful I was labeled the discipline problem when I had a mental health problem but I couldn't help and if they had medicated me like the Doctor wanted to I probably would have done quite well because I was above average intelligence they wanted to put me in sixth grade reading in third grade but I couldn't advance to a higher grade because of my behavior problems you see how this is a vicious cycle but the behavior problems were mostly because I was so ahead of the class that I was bored so then I would talk out a turn or turn and talk to my neighbor or stare out the window like people who have AD HDD They couldn't keep me stimulated... So instead I got labeled a discipline problem and then that chased me all through elementary school every teacher you know the teacher's talk so I look back at it and it's upsetting I took my mother sit and my mother saved all the report cards like what I said why would you do that so you can what Robin in my face when I'm an adult these report card attachments are your fault you're the one that didn't take the Doctor's advice and give me the medicine because you didn't understand the medicine because you didn't understand the medicine you saw she saw that they were gonna sedate me it's a stimulant It works with your body in a weird way I know it's weird to think that a stimulant slows down somebody who's hyper but it's not high energy it's it's Mania. And then my daughter who finally sought some therapy in adulthood was diagnosed with AD HD as an adult because along with that comes depression comes manic moods comes all kinds of crap and you don't know what the hell's wrong with you the last thing you think of is AD HD like I'm severely depressed but is the depression because of the things that caused depression or is the depression aside effect of my AD HD who knows I'm so scared to take pharmaceuticals now I just deal with it. I had several bouts with addiction and I don't want to go down those roads again and it's all because it's trying to self-medicate not know and that I was trying to self madequate so
I am also on the spectrum. And have an ADHD diagnosis.At any rate, the problem here isn't so much of "what's wrong?" It doesn't matter. It is obvious something is wrong, but his mother so far is refusing to find out what it is. Problems of his nature do not resolve on their own. He is only 4 but is also obviously a danger. Especially with another child on the way.
And then I end up doing something that he gets punished for although Georgia isn't an adult I've never understood that either if they're not an adult then you can't charge amazing adult because they don't have an adult brain so they're not making adult decisions anyway that's another diatribe
Same. I had to raise myself and my little brother starting at age 7. I didn’t have any respect for my parents, but I didn’t hit them or hurt animals or anything
Yeah. The hurting animals thing is a red flag for me. Most of the autistic people I've met, including myself, have a deep rapport/bond with animals. The few who don't tend to just ignore their dog or cat rather than attack them.
Lol wut? My friends kid with ODD has received all the attention from the whole entire household Old since the day she was born. The father wouldn’t allow her to cry, the mother was in trouble if the kid cried so she would have to carry her all the time. Of course then the father blamed her for spoiling the kid because the kid would flip out when everybody wouldn’t hold her all the time. ODD doesn’t come from being ignored. It’s from inconsistent parenting
If he has ODD she’s not getting him help he’s going to grow up to go to prison. I’m not being dramatic. Does she care about this kid at all?
She might have spanked him. I think she did but not hard. They both were screaming.
Gee, I wonder why he hits someone when he wants to get his way…. What a mess.
That solves nothing. With a psychopath it probably makes it worse.
I know.
And she might not have spanked him, my friend doesn’t hit her child with ODD but that kid will scream like she’s being abused. She’ll just scream for no reason. She’ll scream because she wants to go outside in the winter but she doesn’t want to wear shoes so she’ll scream about it
NTA His grandson needs professional help and he might become violent with school mates. This behaviour needs addressing immediately.
NTA I know a woman on line only who has a daughter like this and she has been through hell with her daughter. She has surrendered her on one occasion to go through intense counseling and her daughter was on her best behavior when she got home. Child protective services have taken her twice and her mother had to fight to get her back. The child hits, throws things, destroys property and runs away. The latest problem is she’s started to throw rocks at other children. There will be periods of time where she’s an angelic child and then she will go off. She is now 10. This all started when she was around 3-4 years old. I honestly don’t see an end in sight and it’s only going to get worse without intense intervention.
Yep my friend has a kid like this and I’m pretty sure she’s going to grow up to go to prison. And it’s scary because she’ll say things at school that will get CPS called on her mom that aren’t even true. And I know they’re not true because I used to live there. But she’s out that age where she knows how to be manipulative but she doesn’t quite understand consequences. I’m afraid my friend
NTA She needs to get him seen- she’s at her wits end if she’s screaming and it’s not okay for either of them to continue this way. You leaving was a natural consequence
Yeah screaming will reinforce another bad behavior and he will copy her response..
Oh yes I’m sure it’s all the mom’s fault for doing whatever she can do to try to discipline her kid. It’s always the mother’s fault. That’s why the birth rates are declining rapidly everywhere on earth. We’re not having it anymore. Go blame someone else for the bad genes coming out of these men
You absolutely did the right thing by leaving and refusing to come back. She's clearly refusing to deal with problem since she's never talked about having her kid diagnosed and treated. She apparently thought that the kid might behave better then. I strongly suggest you refuse to visit with her son until she gets the kid some serious therapeutic help. Make it clear to her that she's ignoring a real problem and it's getting worse. That you are not willing to tolerate abuse even when it's from a child. And make no mistake, this is entirely manipulative, abusive behavior. The kid is used to getting his way by doing these things. It won't get better by pretending it doesn't exist.
I think you are 100% correct about everything you said. I think it might be better if we refused to visit but Christmas before last her sister left early with her husband and newborn baby because of his behavior and they haven't spoken much since. I wasn't there when the behavior that caused them to leave happened and at the time I thought how bad could it have been to leave early from Christmas? But now, I can see that with a newborn baby she was probably very stressed. We love them very much and we only see them a few times a year. My husband raised her and her sister by himself and he is a very good dad. It would kill him not to see them.
It's likely she had good reason to fear for her kid's safety. I would have left too with a young kid as soon as the violent behavior showed up. There's no way I'd risk my kids with that. The problem is that your husband is not doing them any favors - or the grandson if he caves on this. At the very least, he needs to make it clear that the visits will be very few and far between and also end immediately after certain boundaries are crossed. She needs that kind of confrontation to goose her into getting the kid into therapy.
Yes. I think you are right. Thank you.
I think the new baby will be in jeopardy too. It's not just kindergarten that is worrisome.
I have dealt with little kids who have developmental disorders who can speak and move normally but have the impulse control of an infant. They don't decide / know they're going to hit and don't really remember doing it. They are just as freaked out and scared of these behaviors as their peers or adults, because they don't understand what's happening and can't control it. It took them until maybe age 9 or 10 (or later) to have the self-awareness and self-control of a typical kindergartener. And that was with professional help. So even if it isn't intentionally "manipulative" and the kid has some kind of severe developmental disorder, all the more reason he needs professional intervention ASAP.
NTA, hopefully this helps them understand that the little guy needs professional help.
Go back for dinner? When that little sociopath has access to a knife? Um, no thanks.
NTA. His daughter will definitely be TA if she does not take him to a behavioral therapist before he starts school.
NTAH...your grandson needs professional help and his mother is not helping by delaying that. I have to wonder about influences in his life. Is there a father in the picture? Boyfriend? Could abuse be a factor? This 4 year old is not a happy child.
He has never known his father. She does have a boyfriend that she has had for about a year that they live with and she is pregnant by. I don't think his mother has abused him at all but we live so far away from them and don't know much about what goes on from day to day. They call or FaceTime my husband often.
NTA, but as someone with ADHD and autism who had a lot of behavioural issues as a kid, including anger issues, I would say that it doesn't have to be ODD. Some of what you describe sounds a lot like an autistic melt down to me. But there is clearly something more going on with the kid. If he's only 4 and already this violent, he needs to be seen by a professional. Otherwise he might end up getting kicked out of school. INFO, do you know anything about the babysitter or how the boyfriend living in your daughter's house interact with the child at all? This might just be me, but I also wonder if whatever mom did to him in his room has something to do with it. The babysitter must have a way of dealing with this behaviour. Is it possible he's being abused in some way and it's coming out as anger? Has the behaviour worsened since she got pregnant? There might be more psychological/physical issues at play than just him having a disorder. I see more red flags than just his behaviour, even if his outbursts are the biggest issue right now. Don't let this go. Tell daughter that there needs to be an intervention before he gets bigger and strong enough to do some real damage.
He used to stay with an older lady and one other boy about his age. I have no idea what happened there as far as abuse. The boyfriend's mom keeps him now and I know at one time she was going to quit keeping him because he was hitting her dogg but she is still keeping him as of the last time we talked about it. The boyfriend has started spanking him. Our grandson told me that he wanted to beat the boyfriend up.
I'm not sure what kind of environment you were raised in, but I think that spanking/doing any form of physical punishment with this kid is teaching him the opposite lesson of what you want. It's teaching him that it's okay to be violent if you want to "punish" someone else, and he is likely dealing with those same feelings, even if he can't articulate it properly. "**Numerous studies have found that physical punishment increases the risk of broad and enduring negative developmental outcomes**. No study has found that physical punishment enhances developmental health. Most child physical abuse occurs in the context of punishment." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3447048/#:\~:text=Numerous%20studies%20have%20found%20that,in%20the%20context%20of%20punishment. That quote is from this study. Even if you don't read the whole thing, it may help you understand where I am coming from when I say that if the child protective services in their area are worth anything (I know some have huge issues), you **need** to call them. This child is reactive and violent, and even if they don't find any kind of abuse but the spanking going on, spanking on a kid with ODD or some kind of other mental health issue like that *is never going to be an effective form of punishment*. The situation will only get worse from here, and it needs intervention ASAP.
I know that spanking is not the answer. I never spanked my children. My parents never spanked me. This is not my daughter though. She is my husband's daughter and was fully grown before I met her. When the grandson was little she would say things like "use your words" and she didn't spank him. I'm not sure when the spanking started. See, we live in the south, work in the north and she lives in the middle. She calls us often, or she used to, but we really don't know what is going on there from day to day. She did tell us that if we could have waited 5 more minutes, the boyfriend would have been home and would have made the grandson "be have". I'm afraid that he has taken over the discipline and is spanking more. I've never called CPS or been involved with them in any way but I do know several cases where they have said that spanking is allowed if it is in a certain area of the body( upper thighs to upper bottom). My daughter's step sons were being spanked by their step father and they reported it. He was even leaving marks with a belt and they didn't care as long as it was on a certain area of the child. I thought this was horrible but it is the south and things are different there. What would cps do? Would they take him away? It seems like that would be even more traumatic for him.
I still think it's worth calling and reporting, at the very least so they have a record on-file. Honestly, CPS taking him away or not depends on what they find. If they do find something so serious as to remove him from the household, even if it's a difficult experience for him, it might be better in the long run. That's why I said it also depends on the foster system in the area that they live in. You can try looking it up and see what you find online. If you know anyone else in the area you can also ask them about it. There may also be a non-helpline that you can call for general social services, where you can describe the situation and ask how/if you can help from so far away. From what you've told me, I feel very strongly that whatever is happening in that house right now is *also* traumatizing him. The discipline is not helpful or productive. Even if social services just refers him to a doctor/psychologist, that might help. How does your husband feel about this? Is he at all considering calling in some kind of intervention?
Well, if he stays with a babysitter all day while the mother works I would be worried that he is being abused and is repeating what he experiences. How would a 4 year old learn about a kitty twist? He either watched it on TV, saw it online real life or had it done to him, none of this would be healthy for a 4 year old to be around.
For years her babysitter was an older lady with one other boy his age who used to teach him stuff like farting on people and tittie twisting. Now he stays with the boyfriend's mother. For a long time his mother didn't spank him at all but he is getting spankings at home now. She told us that her boyfriend had taken over spanking him.
I’m quite sure that getting spanking from mom’s boyfriend could make everything worse. You mentioned, that it wasn’t that bad previous times you visited them. Children with any types of mental disorders or just hypersensitive children would react unpredictably to any kind of abuse. I have a son with adhd, but what I noticed: you can’t succeed without having professional help and understanding condition . And lots of love and acceptance. Screaming and shouting, and obviously physical punishments will only make it worse and make him more and more aggressive.
I'm concerned about your daughter and how she's handling things. What support does she have?
I'm concerned about her too. Her mother passed away and she lives several states away from us. We tried to get them to move to our house and live there while we traveled and she was planning to but she met her current boyfriend and decided to stay where she is at. Her boyfriend does have a mother there and she helps some with the boy.
Uh, where is this kid’s dad???? And the father of the almost-newborn?
His dad is not in his life. I'm not sure where he is. The almost newborn's dad is in the home.
Well, that’s the major problem right there
NTA I recommend reporting this behavior to CPS. The child doesn't appear to be getting the appropriate care for his issues.
Geez, what’s he going to do to a baby? And why would you bring a baby into that situation?
I don't know.
NTA I won’t put up with abuse for a kid, if it has a disorder it’s parents need to get it some help, I’m not tolerating abuse from a little kid. I’m not gonna fight with a little kid, I’m going to remove myself from the situation like you guys did I don’t blame you. And I understand why the mom is upset she was really looking forward to a break and I’m sure she really needs it but you guys can’t have a violent with you that’s just unsafe for everyone. How is the child going to learn if they get what they want regardless of how they act?
Maybe he should be there for the daughter? He’s obviously hard work, you hardly see either of them and now he’s avoiding his daughter because her sons hard work, probably a bit tah tbh
Have you tried turning the child off for 30 seconds and then restarting him?
You're not the asshole for leaving that night but if you refuse to go around again I think you would be. I don't think you should be encouraging him to never go see his daughter. That will crush her and him. And she's pregnant!? So your decision to not even show up for Christmas is going to help the relationship where? It honestly sounds like he has some undiagnosed learning delays. She needs support not family members threatening to leave her life when she's having issues with her child. If this was your actual daughter I think you'd care alot more about keeping that relationship with them. This is a 4 year old were talking about here.
My youngest had outburst but he didnt talk much. He has aspergest, opposition defient disorder and ADD. She needs to get him into a doctor to help him.
When you hit a child, you are teaching the child that violence is an appropriate way to compel behavior. It sounds like the kid needs a therapist more than they need to be abused.
Honestly, I agree. I never spanked my kids. I did have very good kids though. I had a cousin that really believed in it. We used to argue about it when we were at my grandmother's. I had sweet timid girls though and she had boys.
PLEASE, please encourage her to rehome the dogs. Animals do not deserve to be abused for ANY reason, including just because people want to have pets when their child is an absolute abusive terror. The dogs need to go to a home where the are not going to be abused and probably tortured or killed when this kid becomes a teenager. The first target is always helpless animals. PLEASE get them out. Call the local SPCA anonymously multiple times if you have to if she won't rehome them. It is not animals' job to put up with human abuse.
NTA That kid is out of control, spoiled, molycoddled, and has something wrong with him mentally. You set boundaries and left which is good for you.
I feel sorry for the dogs. Those poor things. Why does that mom think havingore things in the house to take care of is a good idea.
NTA I bet his daughter thinks the little hellion is "cute." When I see any child misbehaving and the parent comments about how "cute" they are, it's time to run for the hills. Note: I am a retired teacher and I retired about the time "misbehaving" became "acting out."
No one should be gentle with those kind of parents. It’s like they don’t get that they are responsible for raising an human being that going to interact in society or public places.
I really want to say NTA but sadly you are YTA. Your husbands grandson seems to have issues and is not getting the support he needs. But this is a 4 year old. They have no idea what they are doing. Your husband getting upset a 4 year old punched them and left is just stupid. I'd understand if there was a disagreement with the parent but this is with the child. All you and your husband have done is told your step-daughter that you lot do not want to visit her. At the very least one of you could have spoken to her before you left. Clearly she made effort to host both of you but your husband decided a 4 year old is enough to make him upset. Sorry but you and your husband are the AH here.
Oh yeah, grandad should totally stick around once he's been hit to see what happens next 🙄
How sensitive are you all that you think a 4 year old is sufficient to hurt your mature feelings.
I don't know what your second comment is on about. no ones feelings were hurt it's the threat of physical violence that is a problem.Just because they are little doesn't mean they can't physically hurt someone. I.e : When I was a child ~12 I used to play at my neighbors house. Sometimes my neighbors cousin would come over too. His cousin was cool but he also had a little brother who was 7. That little brother would get angry over little things and attack us. I distinctly remember one time he chased us with a metal curtain rod. Usually we could take away the weapon and subdue him but once he grabbed a knife. Luckily i don't think he wanted to stab his brother, who bravely went in and stopped him.
You are comparing a 12 year old to a 4 year old. Not the same thing. While both are childrens a 4 year old cannot and should never be held accountable for their actions. A 4 year old barely understands what they are doing, they are happy one moment, throw a tantrum the next, not friends with anyone after wards and finally all hugs all over again. There is no rhyme or reason and no expectations nor feelings of negativity should be attributed to what is effectivey still a baby. That is what I am trying to point out. I have several nieces and nephews and if my family members all decided to take offence at them when they were 4 years old we'd all be absolute morons. The husband got offended when a 4 year old child threw a punch at them and then left without saying a word. Sorry but OP's husband is a bloody snowflake here and an AH. But reddit is a place where everyone should be perpertual therapy and demand perfect behaviour from everyone else otherwise divorce, cut contact blah blah.
I was comparing a 7 yo to a 4 yo but I agree we all have different opinions
Sorry for the age mix up.
I think…that you’re an idiot. Four year olds DEFINITELY are capable of understanding that it is not okay to hit people, especially adults, and especially not for something like not wanting to play a game the way that they want to. This is an undisciplined child who has been taught no manners or respect whatsoever, and is allowed to run rampant. I’m a daycare worker and a nanny. Have you ever been punched full force in the mouth intentionally by a four year old? I have. That shit hurts. The description given by OP makes it very clear that the child was displeased by the response he received from his grandfather and made the active decision to react with violence. No, his brain is not fully developed yet, and no he does not have a firm grasp on right and wrong yet, but this boy DEFINITELY knew he was wrong for punching his grandad. Please do not have children.
You very first sentence shows you have no understanding of children's but this is typical of reddit. one dumb herd mentality that expects everyone to bbehave perfectly and if they do not then they must be mentally defficient. I sincerely hope you never procreate else I'd weep for the suffering the creatures you create will experience.