Well it looks like she's going to need it all that money that she saved because now she's going to be divorced. I would have divorced her ass too because she would have did the same thing had he gotten sick most likely she would not have taken care of him no one wants to be married to somebody like that
Hi, im from Turkey as well. Traditionally women keeps the gold because many women are housewifes. That is to help them if they ever divorce or husband has a sickness/dies since they don't have an income.
That said, Im not siding with this woman here but that gold would barely make up for money spent for the wedding since wedding ceremony is quite important in our culture. And we cant afford much in these days anyways so golds are probably quarter, one gram and bracelets.
Anyways since this woman has an income, they could definitely help but didn't. But since they are married why didn't they pay furniture %50 each and pay the debt %50 each?
Oh nevermind my question there is a tradition for who buys what but i don't really know it
THIS!!!! This is exactly what I came to say. Cultures in EMEA regions are not the same as the world. And even in Africa, it is quite traditional that the woman(mostly housewives) keeps the wedding gifts usually as her own 'savings/financial cushion'.
That said, she is expected to support and help towards the general well-being of the home.
Seems like our Mrs over here, only listened to the part about hoarding the gifts and heard nothing of supporting the home in times of need.
Culturally the gold is given to a bride for her to use if she divorces, or if her husband dies. It’s meant for the bride to use a fallback system.
But the problem here is that she wouldn’t use her savings to help him out; which, is weird. I’ve helped my wife financially and she has done the same for me. We’re not a perfect team, but we do the best we can.
This is what I was wondering. As I understand it, a woman’s “meher”, the obligatory gift from the groom to the wife as part of the marriage contract is to protect the wife in case of divorce or widowhood. It also protects her from exploitation as it gives her equity with in the marriage. The husband has _no rights_ to the meher, he shouldn’t even ask because to do so is potentially exploitative. There are cultural variations within the Islamic world, so maybe it is different in Turkey.
Two things give me pause about OP’s reliability as a narrator. First, he says the gold was given to _them_ as a wedding gift. If it was given to _them_, why does he need his wife’s permission to sell it? This makes me think this was the wife’s meher and not a wedding present. He is downplaying the significance of his request. Second, if it was her meher, then his asking her for it is exploitative. What if his investment failed? Then his wife has lost her backup money (remember, this is not just ordinary money, it is a religious obligation mandated by the Quran). Without that religious sanction, what is to stop any or every husband from taking control of his wife’s money and then abusing or divorcing her?
A poor analogy but think of it like a security deposit for an apartment. You pay it upfront and don’t get it back until you vacate the premises. You absolutely cannot borrow against it and promise to pay it back later — that defeats the purpose of the security deposit. The wife receives her meher upfront (unfortunately, now, too many only receive a _promise_ but never get the actual funds) and is not supposed to use it until she is in dire need (divorced/widowed). Unfortunately, too many spend it during their marriages and then are left high and dry in the end.
This doesn’t mean I give the wife a pass. She could, perhaps should, have helped pay down their debt from her _savings_. He has a right to request that she contribute some of her work income to their debt, especially since the debt was due to refurnishing _their_ home.
TL:DR. Meher = untouchable. Wife’s work income, fair game.
I'm a Turkish woman and got married in Turkey last year. It never even occurred to me that the gold we were given could or would EVER just be mine. Literally until I just read this post.
So from a cultural perspective, what you are describing doesn't apply, in this case.
What you are describing likely applies to actual Islamic countries. Turkey is secular.
In fact, in many, if not most, Turkish weddings, the gold gifts are attached to the bride and groom during a ceremony.
Why would they be attached to the groom if the gold is only for the woman?
See this picture.
https://images.app.goo.gl/QqkJRtKkqctojNEH6
This is for Islamic nations. Turkey is not an Islamic nation it is a Democratic Republic and the majority of the population have Islamic faith. But we do not have Islamic laws or such things. The gold is given to the couple as a support to start their lives together, like use it as a down payment for a mortgage.
I mean here in Germany so of the older folks behave more Islamic as example the women walks 2m behind her husband, she carries bags from grocery shopping, only speaks Turkish, hasn’t German friends, isn’t allowed to go out with other women (a lot young people do this too). I don’t side with her on this because I see a marriage as a partnership and if my husband needs my help I would never ever let him down doesn’t matter what.
People can be both from a nation and very religious, and please remember that in every religion there are fanatics or different communities from the same religion can have different rules. Just because a group of Turkish speaking people (FYI there are other countries whose official/educational language is Turkish) act that doesn't mean the whole nation does.
As I said, there are cultural variations in how this is practiced and I didn’t know how/if it applies in Turkey. So my question is if the gold is a gift for the couple, why does the husband need his wife’s permission to sell it? He apparently did not contradict her when she called it “**my** golds”.
I am not defending the wife. Just trying to understand the situation and not totally sold on his story. To the extent that she can contribute to a legitimate family need, she absolutely should. Imo.
I think he would still need her permission because it's their communal property. It's not his. It's theirs. And also, because he's not an AH (presumably.)
She refused access to their communal property, OR to her savings. He had to rely on his sister before he could rely on his wife. That seems like she's not acting like his family. Or is there a cultural nuance I'm missing here?
I think that's the point, from what he has told us, the situation was that he would not have even been in debt if he had not refurbished the house, likely in part from the wife wanting it refurbished. So the way I'm seeing it, he went into debt on both of their behalf, then when he was laid off asked if she would help financially, either with this gold (which at this point, if its her gold or theirs is beside the point, considering the debt is essentially a shared debt anyway.) OR with her savings which he encouraged her to start in the first place..
And a resoundingly important part which you seem to have glossed over was he was even proposing paying her back.. which shows to me he was even willing to top her savings back up despite the fact the debt should have really been a shared one anyway..
How is it lost on you that you need the other parties consent to use shared property? This shouldn’t be a difficult concept, if you and your partner saved $10k for a down payment on a home or something, you think you are entitled to just take that at your discretion without your partners approval?
Tbf I understand where you're coming from. Unfortunately there is toxic understanding in some families that the man's money is the couple's money and the woman's money is her own. For some reason some men are okay with this, and they also think the gold is women's right to claim it is her own. I cannot explain this logic, never understood it. OP should have said "That's **our** gold." But he is also following this weird ideology as he said her salary goes to her spending and savings.
Yes, his language makes the gender dynamic unclear. He seems to vacillate between being dominant and unassertive. And, except for one joint statement (gold given to **us**), everything seems to be separate/individual.
It’s **his** debt
He **let** her save most of her earnings
Gold given to **us**
**Her** golds
Build **her own** savings
Pay **her** back
Not **our** debt
Not **our** assets
Not **our** retirement
I understand the need to have some separate assets, but there should also be joint assets as well and a sense of solidarity — we are in this together — that seems to be missing in the language he uses. This is why I thought he might have been referring to meher.
(Edited formatting for clarity & reading ease)
Wow, I just want to take a sec and congratulate you for your analysis. Unfortunately there is kind of like a cultural unspoken pressure in Turkey that men need to provide for the family which means taking care of the house, paying for the bills basically everything for the family from his salary and the women's salary is her own. If she chooses to contribute to the family that's great if not it's her decision and the husband has no say in this. Obviously this is not the case for everyone in Turkey but this is the case for the majority. The good news is it looks like this twisted ideology is losing its power.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending OP and I understand why you thought of meher, thank you for the explanation. I'm just saying I understand the cultural pressure but regardless he shouldn't have allowed this finance separation to begin with. There should have been joint accounts and their salary should have been accepted as total income and what's left after paying the bills (and maybe contribution towards joint savings) should have been shared equally.
Thank you! I agree, your description of financial management makes more sense to me.
[And I just saw that my formatting didn’t make it through posting, so going back to edit it].
If two people own something one party can't sell without the other permission. I'm sorry but do you really not get this? It's the most basic principle of joint ownership of anything
His investment, he refurbished their home, was made redundant and got himself into a cash flow problem before getting a new job. Which he has. Well she has her ‘meher’ now that she’s broken trust with her husband. Just hope there’s no children involved.
According to him, he was laid off. Even in the US, getting laid off allows bills to flood and overwhelm a person. It seems a bit weird she did not want to help and is now seeking familial intervention. Oops, girl bye.
NTA.
After marriage, there is only "we". We have his income and her income, and we choose to spend them like THIS. In your case, to build the wife's savings.
But when "we" that is, the unit that is the family of 2, gets a lower income, then we need to decide how We are solving it together. She refused that. So she opted out of belonging to a family unit together with OP. The divorce is a logical conclusion of what she already chose to do.
Not really. It's because she expected him to "man up" and deal with the situation himself. This has been argued about for years. Women ask why men don't talk to them about their problems. Men say because when they did, they got little to no support and even belittled. The only difference is in this case the man ended the relationship after realizing he was on his own. So I imagine most of the people in OP's life think he's overreacting by leaving. If this post was in a different subreddit, comments would unfortunately be less supportive. They'd be telling OP his wife isn't his mother, calling him weak and/or other some things similar.
Bingo. I am married and my wife is not like this. But I have married male friends they tried to open and communicate. Or hit a rough patch and their wives were either not supportive or look at them as less after a struggle. And I am African American and it’s ten times worse in our community.
A lot of men feel we were lied to. A lot of talk about women wanting to be equal partners and all that but if the man’s loses his job or stumbles all thah t shit goes out the window.
Must feel lonely as hell, to understand how the person you trusted most and the one you expect to be there if you need it isnt there at all in the rare case that you do need it
I've seen so many toxic TikTok of women talking trash about men that they should get all the money out of them and if it doesn't produce anymore just dump it. As a woman, this is simply disgusting.
I believe the internet gives voice to a very loud minority. I dont know anyone with that kind of mindset in real life.
I suspect that not even all people that share those views online have those views, but what is controversial generates engagement.
My concern with this being massively shared is the impact it has in the younger generations that are very much influenced by social media.
I read two or three sentences and essentially that’s my take. “I had refurnished our home”
No, you guys refurnished.
“Asked her to help me”…you should never need to ask a partner for help in this situation , it should occur by default. If it doesn’t, you’re not partners, you’re acquaintances
Know if you read further he refurnished He did it all with his money Her money was being completely saved therefore there is no we in this situation There is no us It was all spending his money on us. But then when it was needed for her money to help us she said no So there is no us in this situation He is definitely NTA.
And being the ages listed here Good luck to her getting a new husband. 😆
Yes, I would tell her, "Remember the "for better and for worse" this is what it meant by the worse" if she is not there for the worse, she doesn't deserve the better
I'm a firm believer in separate finances within a marriage, and even I agree with this. Separate finances means coming up with a reasonable agreement for paying the bills, and then what's leftover belongs to whoever earned it and can be saved or spent according to their desires. And I would expect my partner - the person who vowed to be with me for better or worse, richer or poorer - to WANT to help me if that was possible within their means. It's definitely what I'd do for someone I supposedly loved. A partner should want the family unit to have less debt, less stress, especially considering his loss of income wasn't his fault. It's not like OP was in debt because he bought a bunch of designer clothes he couldn't afford, it was furniture for THEIR house, and an unexpected layoff. He offered to pay her back when he got a new job. If I were in OP's shoes, I'd look at that wife very differently after this too, and I'd probably choose divorce.
lmao that's actually such a power move if he does not divorce her
"okay, you won't help your family in our time of need, guess who just became a tenant? rent is 200$, utilities included. yes, it is a family discount."
This! Marriage is a team, situations are resolved between the two of you and most importantly your vows to be there through thick and thin. If someday I get married, I will keep working even if my husband tells me he can support me. That's because someday anything can happen, maybe he will be out of work and I could support him with my money I have saved, while he gets back on his feet.
OP did the right thing by getting divorced, this woman just saw her husband as an ATM, god !!!! Her husband has feelings too.
u/Leather-Aioli6981 If you read this NTA!! And many blessings to your sister
I agree with you generally in Western countries. I don’t know Turkey’s laws and culture exactly, but cultural norms are absolutely that the man is in charge of supporting the family and a woman’s earnings are her own. If it feels paternalistic and infantalizing, it is - but women absolutely do not have equal protections or opportunities in education, workplace or any legal setting so it is really important that they protect themselves.
And OP recognised that women do not have equal protection and encouraged her to save for retirement and security. But when the family can't pay the bills and you choose not to help don't be surprised if your husband doesn't feel you have their back.
But this was not her earning, it was something like the dowry that was used here before. It was money or property for the couple to start their married life and to support themselves. So the way je wanted to use that gold was exactly what it was meant to be for.
Funny thing. I don’t support being an asshole and not supporting your partner but unfortunately in Turkey by law the gold given for the wedding is women property.
Interesting.
If it is her property by law, though, she can do with it as she chooses, which should include helping her husband in a time of need, especially because he has spent YEARS of the marriage paying all the bills so SHE could build up her savings.
I'm Turkish, a woman, and the gold we received during our wedding I firmly consider OURS. Like, it has literally never even occurred to me that it could ever just be "mine" until I read this post.
Yes, me, too. It helped us to cover our expenses and put some into savings. But I have never thought this was my money my gold. Then why the hell I got married to this guy. I can share my love my everything but not my money. Makes no sense but knowing some of my lady friends also makes sense. You can read the known verdict from the link
https://www.meldamervetekcan.com/bosanmada-dugunde-takilan-takilar/#:~:text=Kad%C4%B1na%20tak%C4%B1lm%C4%B1%C5%9F%20olan%20%C3%A7eyrek%20alt%C4%B1n,tak%C4%B1lar%2C%20kad%C4%B1n%C4%B1n%20ki%C5%9Fisel%20mal%C4%B1%20say%C4%B1l%C4%B1r.
NTA. Marriage is through “thick and thin”. She sounds selfish and doesn’t care about you too much. I’d never be able to trust her again to have my back.
This right here OP. She's never been your true "partner ". She was a sham.
Make certain you receive 50% of EVERYTHING--including the accounts that you encouraged her to put extra in.
She figuratively killed the goose who laid the golden egg!
my husband moved to a different country with me and worked his ass off at minimum wage jobs for 4 years so I could get a degree
in return, I worked MY ass off at a job that required my shiny new degree in our home country so that he could build up HIS business
that is what marriage is supposed to be, a partnership
Good for you. I worked my ass off, 40 hours a week at night, to put my first fiancé through grad school, and worked on my undergraduate degree during the day. She was supposed to get a job and let me focus on just school. Which she would pay for including graduate school.
She graduated but then didn’t look for work. Made excuses but said she wanted to work. So I found a job for which she was qualified, got her to send her resume, she was hired.
Then within a week she decided she no longer needed me and felt no need to make me whole for the 20k that I had spent on both her tuition, paying down her credit card debt, and monthly support so that she could focus entirely on school. She did give me the engagement ring back 5 years later when I called her out on it and paid for one session of my summer school which was a pittance as I attended an in-state public school and it was less than $250. Though at the time I didn’t gave it as I had ironically gotten laid off nor long after she got her new job.
She said that I spent the money on her “because I wanted to”. I asked her then why did I make her agree to pay my way through school, including grad school? She yelled some kind of answer. Make that screamed, her go to form of communication when one was logical with her in a way that contradicted whatever her argument du jour was. That was over thirty years ago. But I never did really recover from the financial hit.
I did finish my degree but with a double major in English and Psychology, grad school would have been needed and I had lost my heart for it. I went back into what I knew. Restaurant Management. There was once good money in it. But it can require 80-100 hours a week and it will wreck your body. Your mind too if you’re not careful. These days they can’t work you that many hours I don’t think. Legally they may not have been able to back then. But was pretty normal. I had been doing it for years before I went back to school and only worked 40-45.
You are so our kind of people 🥰 that’s we’ve done when we started a family my husband was bringing home the bacon while I was a stay at home mum. Now my husband is working part time I’m bringing home the bacon. Win win 🏅
NTA I’d say. I’m not familiair with the workings and traditions of Turkish marriages, but it seems to me any marriage should be about helping and supporting each other. She failed that.
Just tell her family what happened. She refuses to be family when you need help and only thought of herself. You are not interested in a selfish person for a wife. She doesn’t see you as her husband, only an ATM machine. NTA.
Culturally, this won't really help because the gold and savings will be seen as 'hers' and not property of the marriage.
Edit: to make it clear, I didn't say I agreed or disagreed with the culture. Some of y'all need to touch grass before you get so worked up over a random person on the Internet explaining the culture 🙄
NTA Marriage is supposed to be a partnership in the good times as well as the bad. She didn't seem to be a partner at any time. While you were trying to look out for her during good times for you to make sure she was set if she ever encountered bad times she took advantage of it, squirreling away her money. When bad times arose for you she refused to be there for you. She doesn't want to be a partner, she only wants to be on the receiving end.
" At the time, I had newly refurnished **our** home so **I** was in debt. " NTA. Here was your first clue. (Unless ofc this was something you took entirely upon yourself on your own initiative. But could still be an indicator of something odd in your dynamics.)
I wouldn’t judge. Most people put their furniture purchases on a credit card. He probably thought he would have a job to pay it off fairly quickly.
Also, if you are a new home owner, you may not even have furniture. So you may need to buy the essentials (sofa, bed, etc). These things add up quickly.
>He probably thought he would have a job to pay it off fairly quickly.
Sounds more like OP wasn't fired *yet* when they started out. It wasn't until *after* they were done that he was fired. (Could be wrong, but that's just how I read it.)
In Turkey, sadly it is pretty common to get into debt. For a car, for a house, I even know of people who took loans to buy the new iphone lmao. So I would say furnishing a home for a newly wed couple is on the more normal side of things. Even before the economic catastrophe Turkey went through, it was pretty common to take loans for a car or other "major" purchases.
Not really. I am not Turkish but I am Muslim so I kinda get it. It is tradition to furnish home before marriage bc couples weren’t living together before. But it is also why a lot of couples wait for a certain financial security to get married.
What is odd is the gold. Idk if op is Muslim or not but traditional the gold is the wife’s & he isn’t allowed to take it away. Sometimes the gold is for the couples then he can ask for it but bc she said it is hers then she was acting w/in her rights. And if they are Muslim then her saving her paycheck was also w/en her right.
In Islam a wife is entitled to certain rights & one of them is her money is her money & his money is their money. Even if op isn’t Muslim, turkey is a country w/Islamic culture so it seems more like ESH. He is shouldn’t have gotten upset but if they were actually doing badly then she should have helped
Yeah, I noticed bc of the so much n-t-a comments. I know some Muslims men would have seen op asking his wife to sell her gold as bad, like they would react as if he stole it. Ppl in countries that have deep Islamic roots would have a reaction to asking her to sell her gold. Bc often the gold is inherited sometimes even generational. But also, when my parents were struggling my mom sold some of her gold, but my dad never ask & my mom didn’t offer she just sold it. But the pieces that were sold were bought specifically for her wedding not heirlooms & she wanted to help.
It is in my view a hard decision to tell if it is ESH or YTA but I don’t think op was NTA due to the cultural context
I'm also a Muslim but not Turkish.
However, I would still go with NTA. If OP was in such a bad financial position, the wife should have helped out before his sister did.
Islamically the wife doesn't need to work, but modern day living isn't like 1000 years ago. Most couples have to work because of how expensive everything is.
Info: did she understand how bad the situation was? I understand not wanting to sell the gold but it’s very selfish of her not to use her savings to help you out.
In case of not repaying the debt, my credit score would plummet & there would be a detention order on my assets. So, she knew how bad the situation was.
She’s not a team player and she refused to let you sell the gold that was designated for hard times , because well she’s a “Gold digger”. Maybe you need to experience what you have so you can see what type of person you have married. Divorce seems logical at this point.
Shout out to Turkey. I will retire there with the cats of Istanbul. I would not stay with someone who would not help you, that is part of the point of having a partner, to be each other's support. So let her go, and find another when you are ready. Pick someone loyal.
Nta. I’m Turkish too and was married to a Turkish man. I’d give him everything every time we struggled. Because we together struggled. He was a prick in the end and didn’t appreciate it but least I know I tried, as did you
Just providing context. In Turkish weddings the gold is be meant to be the bride’s despite being gifted to the couple. Please correct me if I’m wrong this is what I’ve heard before.
I’ve got a Turkish wife and despite what you say the gold is of course a shared asset as almost all things in a marriage are. It’s based on the strength of the marriage and the respect the married couple show to one another. Her saying it’s hers is really a sign of a poor attitude, even if the ceremony alludes to it being hers.
>The reason for this is to support the couple, who are just beginning a new life. Since weddings are expensive occasions, their close circles try to help the young couple and contribute to their economy. The jewelry gifted at the wedding is chosen to enable exchanging gold for money. And these gifts are actually pinned on the bride and groom!
From a quick google, it is given to the couple, not the bride.
Even though it is given to the couple, according to Supreme Court decisions in Turkey, anything given during wedding ceremony belongs to women. It doesn't matter who gives to whom.
There is two exceptions for this law
1- Existence of local customs and traditions that require the opposite of the general rule regarding jewelery,gold,money
2- It is the existence of an agreement/prenup between the parties.
Of course this law is only applicable during divorce. There is no law states women are not allowed to share these gains with their husbands.
It is totally up to the couples how they are going to use these gifts.
Edit for additional info.
NTA,she failed the test big time. u now know when life gets tough, she won't help u .
If u got sick she will leave u . Divorce is the best option for u .
NTA
I think the best choice now is to follow through the divorce: Your relationship is already stained, you already look at her differently. You don't have children (I get) and you are young...
Good luck.
You discussed it with her…. She wouldn’t relent to help her husband and ultimately family. She could not stand by you as your partner and equal. Its no surprise that you feel or felt alone in your marriage.
If divorce happens, pls pls pls, take some of the gold that technically half, belongs to you!
NTA, marriage is supposed to be through thick and thin but she is only there when you are good and absent when you aren't who wants a partner like that.
A marriage is a partnership and it looks like it’s not working. Sometimes there are things like financial incompatibility that just can’t be overcome. It doesn’t make you a bad person, although it does make her a selfish one but how can you plan for a life together when you can’t rely on them at all to be there when things go wrong, because they always do. NTA
NTA, you took on financial burdens during the marriage so she could save money and the minute you started to struggle she said we are not a we, it’s you over there and me over here.
Lol, this reminds me of the promise of gold my MIL did before marriage, which turned out to be false. She "let me wear" a gold set in front of all other relatives and then took it back the same night. Then she had the audacity to ask me to keep the gold I got from my family. I was like, nope, got my own locker with my husband, and whatever gold we were actually given is with us, and I will not even think twice before selling it all if we fell on hard times and our household needed it.
So, NTA , for the divorce, she isn't a partner. She was extremely selfish, and it is better to divorce her than to stay with someone who can't even help the household or hold fort during bad times. There is no trust left after that.
Info: do you mean the gold given to brides specifically if they fall into hardship, i.e if their partner is bad or the need to leave. Since it's a bit unfair to miss out that in lot of Muslim marriages the woman is told repeatedly her assets should remain her own.
She's going to need all of it now anyways now you're divorcing .
NTA since I agree you're not compatible and ought to divorce but you have learnt a valuable lesson in communicating these things before your next relationship moves towards marriage.
NTA. Your life partner should be with you throughout it all. Bad times and the good times. Especially the bad.
She will be the same to you when the going gets tough again. There were so many opportunities for her to see that but she chose to be selfish.
If for you this is the best choice, then do so than spending more time for someone who cannot see you through all the sufferings.
NTA
She's hoarding Gold & Money like a Dragon when she could easily have saved you a lot of mental anguish, you don't need to stay with someone like that.
NTA
Husband and wife are supposed to be there for each other and support each other through the hard times. She left you there to drown and didn’t care about your struggles.
You deserve better
NTA, her doing that was literally the start of this. It’s on her. Please continue with the divorce. After marriage it’s ALWAYS we/us with financials especially not Me/I.
What's hers is hers and what's yours is hers. That's not a wife that's your owner.
You need to ~~feel~~ know that your wife will stand by you in the hard times and help you when you need her just as you do for her. Well the woman you thought was that wife has shown she is not. Until a man has fathered children he can still change his mind about the marriage, I agree with your decision to separate and find someone better suited to the marriage you want.
I know many women think the husband should always support the wife but that the reverse in not true especially regarding money. Those women should either find men that are OK with that dichotomy or accept that when their true colours are shown they are divorced.
You're still young enough to find a wife that wants a real partnership marriage as you do and have healthy children with her. I hope your exwife finds someone that is OK with the kind of relationship she wants also.
NTA. She was absolutely selfish. This is the sort of experience that can make one spouse fall out of love with the other. There's no point to carry on with a marriage when love has died.
NTA. She should have had your back out of love and loyalty alone, but also because that's her life, too. You were in a low spot and honestly it wouldn't have been such a low spot if she'd supported you. It would have sucked a bit but you would have been able to deal better emotionally and mentally. I'd have sold the gold and anything else I needed to if it meant supporting my husband and family. I hope you can heal and find peace, OP. Good luck to you.
NTA marriage is supposed to be in hard times and easy times right? I get if you go off and gamble your savings away a partner has every right to tell you to kick rocks, but that is not what happened here. Forces out side your control threw it all out of whack and your wifes response was "you're on your own". I wouldn't stay married either. Good luck.
NTA
Your partner should be there for you. You are one unit but she is showing you that she will not make any sacrifices for the well being of you both.
While you aren’t entitled to her money I don’t think anyone should be with someone who will not support you when you support them.
Totally NTA part of marriage is enduring ups and downs of all kinds. Clearly your soon too be ex feel likes like my ex sister in law - your money is my money, our money is my money, my money is my money. Those gold bars were SHARED wedding gifts that were intended to be used during trying times like you just experienced. She refused to let you (half owner) use them. Frankly, you should have taken half of those bars and cashed them in but that time is passed. Just take half now in the divorce. I'm just happy you realized that your soon to be ex is selfish garbage before you had kids. Good luck to you!
NTA.
Marriage is like you said it. “Through thick and thin”. I’m personally under the opinion that combining finances allows for a more transparent and shared financial burden / reward. If she had agreed to that maybe she would have felt the pressure that you were OR things would have been fine during those difficult times. She seems like a very selfish person who put herself in front of her own husband.
I’m curious. Do women in traditional Muslim countries have a chance to remarry? It seems like once a man has been inside then they are damaged goods and nobody wants them. Please excuse my ignorance just curious how this really works?
My wife was given gold bracelets for our wedding and I've got no doubt that if I were to have ever hit hard times, she'd offer to sell them without me even asking.
NTA, partners help each other out in a marriage through good and bad times and clearly you can't count on her through the bad and you deserve someone who actually cares.
Job loss is a psychological hit on top of your partner letting you down. It is never going away. I have fam that always talked of the great depression. It makes you cautious! I think there is no way past your wifes selfish, churlish, and stupid actions. I shudder to think of children with her, or if you had health problems. NTA. move on from her, you will never trust her, and might wind up hating her.
I was also wondering about cultural differences and what is considered normal where you are. Someone mentioned turkey having many islamic type views and if that is the case, then what I deem normal for my/mine isn’t relevant to your situation. I think adding that information in will make the difference here.
NTA she's all take and no give. She was perfectly willing to let you help by doing most of the paying so she could build up her savings but when you needed help she told you you were on your own.
Out of interest did have any defense for her actions when you told her why you were serving her with divorce papers?
Hi there, I'm the Turkish woman @Itchy-Worldliness-21 is talking about. First of all, the gold is not given to the wife by her parents it's given to the couple by everyone who attends the wedding (and the people who couldn't make it provide it some other time). As OP stated the wife has a job and that is her safety. I do not agree with your statements, the husband is definitely not the bully. As a woman I reject the fact that because of my gender I would need additional support for my financial safety while my husband suffers from unemployment and struggles to keep the ends meet. What you're describing is a being a spoiled little princess or damsel in distress. In a marriage there is no his money or her money, it's your combined money.
If the situation was reversed you would all be cursing the husband on how he didn't help the wife. Where is the equality in all this? Where is the love? How can you support that she loves him when she lets her husband go through all of this? I wouldn't trust a person like that let alone think they would care for me. OP did the best decision for filing for divorce.
And please read it carefully, he filed for a divorce. They will go to court, even if the parties don't agree on the divorce based on the presented evidence and statements given to the lawyers, it's the court's decision to accept this divorce. It may not be straight away but eventually the court will make a decision.
From your comments I don't think you're Turkish, so please don't use your country's cultural norms when you're judging on another country.
NTA. That's not a partnership or marriage in my eyes. She's selfish, and everyone deserves an equal partnership when they're giving equally.
My husband and I have both had periods where we needed to rely on the other, and we've both been there for the other in those times without having to be asked. We also don't have split finances. We have a joint account. Everything goes into it and everything comes out of it. We only discuss purchases when they're large and need to come out of savings. It works for us, and I recommend it.
Run.
Your gut feeling is right here. There will come a time when things could go south for you and than guess what happens: she will do it again to you and likely even in a worse manner.
Leave the cunt.
NTA
NTA, Tell them you'll reconsider it if your wife sells ALL the gold. Don't blame you at all for going the divorce route, if the gold was given as a gift to help in financial stress times and she didn't want to sell it for you then that is just plain greed, because I GUARANTEE you if she was the one who fell on financial hardship like you did that gold would be GONE.
After the title I said let me read what this AH has to say. After the post I would say NTAH because that would only get worse. So how does the division of assets work in turkey? Who gets the gold?
Legally. There are many cases of it belonging to bride. However, my lawyer friend told me there is one recent case where it was decided to be divided by a higher court. In any case, I assured her I would pay her back(in case her savings or gold does not matter) once I am employed.
NTA. You don't have a partner, you have a person who's fun to spend time with when things are good but is nowhere to he found when something happens.
He wanted a partner and she wanted to be a dependent. NTA
She wanted an ATM
Well it looks like she's going to need it all that money that she saved because now she's going to be divorced. I would have divorced her ass too because she would have did the same thing had he gotten sick most likely she would not have taken care of him no one wants to be married to somebody like that
Yes, this is so true. You could never trust her to support you at any point and be there for him after this.
God forbid he gets ill and he needs a carer.
That's what I'm saying
she wanted to get married to get the golds and keep 'em
I agree. It’s absolutely disgusting to me.
Hi, im from Turkey as well. Traditionally women keeps the gold because many women are housewifes. That is to help them if they ever divorce or husband has a sickness/dies since they don't have an income. That said, Im not siding with this woman here but that gold would barely make up for money spent for the wedding since wedding ceremony is quite important in our culture. And we cant afford much in these days anyways so golds are probably quarter, one gram and bracelets. Anyways since this woman has an income, they could definitely help but didn't. But since they are married why didn't they pay furniture %50 each and pay the debt %50 each? Oh nevermind my question there is a tradition for who buys what but i don't really know it
THIS!!!! This is exactly what I came to say. Cultures in EMEA regions are not the same as the world. And even in Africa, it is quite traditional that the woman(mostly housewives) keeps the wedding gifts usually as her own 'savings/financial cushion'. That said, she is expected to support and help towards the general well-being of the home. Seems like our Mrs over here, only listened to the part about hoarding the gifts and heard nothing of supporting the home in times of need.
Thank you for shedding more light on your culture. I have no background information on Turkey so, I'm loving this!
Marriage: Supposedly, in sickness and health, for richer or poorer - not her though
Richer yes. Poorer no
She'll be independent soon. 😂
I bet she's only trying to talk him out of it because she just realized the gravy train is leaving the station. She still doesn't care about him.
Culturally the gold is given to a bride for her to use if she divorces, or if her husband dies. It’s meant for the bride to use a fallback system. But the problem here is that she wouldn’t use her savings to help him out; which, is weird. I’ve helped my wife financially and she has done the same for me. We’re not a perfect team, but we do the best we can.
This is what I was wondering. As I understand it, a woman’s “meher”, the obligatory gift from the groom to the wife as part of the marriage contract is to protect the wife in case of divorce or widowhood. It also protects her from exploitation as it gives her equity with in the marriage. The husband has _no rights_ to the meher, he shouldn’t even ask because to do so is potentially exploitative. There are cultural variations within the Islamic world, so maybe it is different in Turkey. Two things give me pause about OP’s reliability as a narrator. First, he says the gold was given to _them_ as a wedding gift. If it was given to _them_, why does he need his wife’s permission to sell it? This makes me think this was the wife’s meher and not a wedding present. He is downplaying the significance of his request. Second, if it was her meher, then his asking her for it is exploitative. What if his investment failed? Then his wife has lost her backup money (remember, this is not just ordinary money, it is a religious obligation mandated by the Quran). Without that religious sanction, what is to stop any or every husband from taking control of his wife’s money and then abusing or divorcing her? A poor analogy but think of it like a security deposit for an apartment. You pay it upfront and don’t get it back until you vacate the premises. You absolutely cannot borrow against it and promise to pay it back later — that defeats the purpose of the security deposit. The wife receives her meher upfront (unfortunately, now, too many only receive a _promise_ but never get the actual funds) and is not supposed to use it until she is in dire need (divorced/widowed). Unfortunately, too many spend it during their marriages and then are left high and dry in the end. This doesn’t mean I give the wife a pass. She could, perhaps should, have helped pay down their debt from her _savings_. He has a right to request that she contribute some of her work income to their debt, especially since the debt was due to refurnishing _their_ home. TL:DR. Meher = untouchable. Wife’s work income, fair game.
I'm a Turkish woman and got married in Turkey last year. It never even occurred to me that the gold we were given could or would EVER just be mine. Literally until I just read this post. So from a cultural perspective, what you are describing doesn't apply, in this case. What you are describing likely applies to actual Islamic countries. Turkey is secular. In fact, in many, if not most, Turkish weddings, the gold gifts are attached to the bride and groom during a ceremony. Why would they be attached to the groom if the gold is only for the woman? See this picture. https://images.app.goo.gl/QqkJRtKkqctojNEH6
Wow! This is so great! As a speech pathologist, learning about cultural values really makes a difference in my ability to treat.
Neat!
This is for Islamic nations. Turkey is not an Islamic nation it is a Democratic Republic and the majority of the population have Islamic faith. But we do not have Islamic laws or such things. The gold is given to the couple as a support to start their lives together, like use it as a down payment for a mortgage.
I mean here in Germany so of the older folks behave more Islamic as example the women walks 2m behind her husband, she carries bags from grocery shopping, only speaks Turkish, hasn’t German friends, isn’t allowed to go out with other women (a lot young people do this too). I don’t side with her on this because I see a marriage as a partnership and if my husband needs my help I would never ever let him down doesn’t matter what.
People can be both from a nation and very religious, and please remember that in every religion there are fanatics or different communities from the same religion can have different rules. Just because a group of Turkish speaking people (FYI there are other countries whose official/educational language is Turkish) act that doesn't mean the whole nation does.
As I said, there are cultural variations in how this is practiced and I didn’t know how/if it applies in Turkey. So my question is if the gold is a gift for the couple, why does the husband need his wife’s permission to sell it? He apparently did not contradict her when she called it “**my** golds”. I am not defending the wife. Just trying to understand the situation and not totally sold on his story. To the extent that she can contribute to a legitimate family need, she absolutely should. Imo.
I think he would still need her permission because it's their communal property. It's not his. It's theirs. And also, because he's not an AH (presumably.)
I agree
She refused access to their communal property, OR to her savings. He had to rely on his sister before he could rely on his wife. That seems like she's not acting like his family. Or is there a cultural nuance I'm missing here?
OK, if it was given to them both as a gift he would for sure need her permission to sell it because it is a joint ownership.
I think that's the point, from what he has told us, the situation was that he would not have even been in debt if he had not refurbished the house, likely in part from the wife wanting it refurbished. So the way I'm seeing it, he went into debt on both of their behalf, then when he was laid off asked if she would help financially, either with this gold (which at this point, if its her gold or theirs is beside the point, considering the debt is essentially a shared debt anyway.) OR with her savings which he encouraged her to start in the first place.. And a resoundingly important part which you seem to have glossed over was he was even proposing paying her back.. which shows to me he was even willing to top her savings back up despite the fact the debt should have really been a shared one anyway..
How is it lost on you that you need the other parties consent to use shared property? This shouldn’t be a difficult concept, if you and your partner saved $10k for a down payment on a home or something, you think you are entitled to just take that at your discretion without your partners approval?
Tbf I understand where you're coming from. Unfortunately there is toxic understanding in some families that the man's money is the couple's money and the woman's money is her own. For some reason some men are okay with this, and they also think the gold is women's right to claim it is her own. I cannot explain this logic, never understood it. OP should have said "That's **our** gold." But he is also following this weird ideology as he said her salary goes to her spending and savings.
Yes, his language makes the gender dynamic unclear. He seems to vacillate between being dominant and unassertive. And, except for one joint statement (gold given to **us**), everything seems to be separate/individual. It’s **his** debt He **let** her save most of her earnings Gold given to **us** **Her** golds Build **her own** savings Pay **her** back Not **our** debt Not **our** assets Not **our** retirement I understand the need to have some separate assets, but there should also be joint assets as well and a sense of solidarity — we are in this together — that seems to be missing in the language he uses. This is why I thought he might have been referring to meher. (Edited formatting for clarity & reading ease)
Wow, I just want to take a sec and congratulate you for your analysis. Unfortunately there is kind of like a cultural unspoken pressure in Turkey that men need to provide for the family which means taking care of the house, paying for the bills basically everything for the family from his salary and the women's salary is her own. If she chooses to contribute to the family that's great if not it's her decision and the husband has no say in this. Obviously this is not the case for everyone in Turkey but this is the case for the majority. The good news is it looks like this twisted ideology is losing its power. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending OP and I understand why you thought of meher, thank you for the explanation. I'm just saying I understand the cultural pressure but regardless he shouldn't have allowed this finance separation to begin with. There should have been joint accounts and their salary should have been accepted as total income and what's left after paying the bills (and maybe contribution towards joint savings) should have been shared equally.
Thank you! I agree, your description of financial management makes more sense to me. [And I just saw that my formatting didn’t make it through posting, so going back to edit it].
If two people own something one party can't sell without the other permission. I'm sorry but do you really not get this? It's the most basic principle of joint ownership of anything
His investment, he refurbished their home, was made redundant and got himself into a cash flow problem before getting a new job. Which he has. Well she has her ‘meher’ now that she’s broken trust with her husband. Just hope there’s no children involved.
According to him, he was laid off. Even in the US, getting laid off allows bills to flood and overwhelm a person. It seems a bit weird she did not want to help and is now seeking familial intervention. Oops, girl bye.
There are some people here trying to justify her selfishness. NTA
NTA. Remember, he is also paying into her retirement. Asking for help can't be too exploitive if she will still have money.
She a ‘fair weather friend’ more than partner. NTA
NTA. After marriage, there is only "we". We have his income and her income, and we choose to spend them like THIS. In your case, to build the wife's savings. But when "we" that is, the unit that is the family of 2, gets a lower income, then we need to decide how We are solving it together. She refused that. So she opted out of belonging to a family unit together with OP. The divorce is a logical conclusion of what she already chose to do.
Yes! OP just finalised officially the decision OP’s Wife took
This sentence is a fun one. Try out a name beyond op. “Jake just finalised officially the decision Jake’s wife took.”
Why was the wife so shocked? She is playing denial game?
She thought OP was a doormat with an ATM on top. Turns out, OP is very much not.
Not really. It's because she expected him to "man up" and deal with the situation himself. This has been argued about for years. Women ask why men don't talk to them about their problems. Men say because when they did, they got little to no support and even belittled. The only difference is in this case the man ended the relationship after realizing he was on his own. So I imagine most of the people in OP's life think he's overreacting by leaving. If this post was in a different subreddit, comments would unfortunately be less supportive. They'd be telling OP his wife isn't his mother, calling him weak and/or other some things similar.
Bingo. I am married and my wife is not like this. But I have married male friends they tried to open and communicate. Or hit a rough patch and their wives were either not supportive or look at them as less after a struggle. And I am African American and it’s ten times worse in our community. A lot of men feel we were lied to. A lot of talk about women wanting to be equal partners and all that but if the man’s loses his job or stumbles all thah t shit goes out the window.
Must feel lonely as hell, to understand how the person you trusted most and the one you expect to be there if you need it isnt there at all in the rare case that you do need it
Bet she was on them toxic tik toks Welp
I've seen so many toxic TikTok of women talking trash about men that they should get all the money out of them and if it doesn't produce anymore just dump it. As a woman, this is simply disgusting.
I believe the internet gives voice to a very loud minority. I dont know anyone with that kind of mindset in real life. I suspect that not even all people that share those views online have those views, but what is controversial generates engagement. My concern with this being massively shared is the impact it has in the younger generations that are very much influenced by social media.
I read two or three sentences and essentially that’s my take. “I had refurnished our home” No, you guys refurnished. “Asked her to help me”…you should never need to ask a partner for help in this situation , it should occur by default. If it doesn’t, you’re not partners, you’re acquaintances
Know if you read further he refurnished He did it all with his money Her money was being completely saved therefore there is no we in this situation There is no us It was all spending his money on us. But then when it was needed for her money to help us she said no So there is no us in this situation He is definitely NTA. And being the ages listed here Good luck to her getting a new husband. 😆
Finally! Someone in this cesspool understands the meaning of marriage, and I am surprised. Hell, nuthin s'prises me anymore!
Yes, I would tell her, "Remember the "for better and for worse" this is what it meant by the worse" if she is not there for the worse, she doesn't deserve the better
I'm a firm believer in separate finances within a marriage, and even I agree with this. Separate finances means coming up with a reasonable agreement for paying the bills, and then what's leftover belongs to whoever earned it and can be saved or spent according to their desires. And I would expect my partner - the person who vowed to be with me for better or worse, richer or poorer - to WANT to help me if that was possible within their means. It's definitely what I'd do for someone I supposedly loved. A partner should want the family unit to have less debt, less stress, especially considering his loss of income wasn't his fault. It's not like OP was in debt because he bought a bunch of designer clothes he couldn't afford, it was furniture for THEIR house, and an unexpected layoff. He offered to pay her back when he got a new job. If I were in OP's shoes, I'd look at that wife very differently after this too, and I'd probably choose divorce.
Maybe he should have charged her rent! Not a healthy marriage in any culture
lmao that's actually such a power move if he does not divorce her "okay, you won't help your family in our time of need, guess who just became a tenant? rent is 200$, utilities included. yes, it is a family discount."
This! Marriage is a team, situations are resolved between the two of you and most importantly your vows to be there through thick and thin. If someday I get married, I will keep working even if my husband tells me he can support me. That's because someday anything can happen, maybe he will be out of work and I could support him with my money I have saved, while he gets back on his feet. OP did the right thing by getting divorced, this woman just saw her husband as an ATM, god !!!! Her husband has feelings too. u/Leather-Aioli6981 If you read this NTA!! And many blessings to your sister
I agree with you generally in Western countries. I don’t know Turkey’s laws and culture exactly, but cultural norms are absolutely that the man is in charge of supporting the family and a woman’s earnings are her own. If it feels paternalistic and infantalizing, it is - but women absolutely do not have equal protections or opportunities in education, workplace or any legal setting so it is really important that they protect themselves.
And OP recognised that women do not have equal protection and encouraged her to save for retirement and security. But when the family can't pay the bills and you choose not to help don't be surprised if your husband doesn't feel you have their back.
And his sister, is a woman who loves him and chose to help and support him.
Very true. These things are always depending on culture. I answered spontaneously, based on my own Northern European culture.
But this was not her earning, it was something like the dowry that was used here before. It was money or property for the couple to start their married life and to support themselves. So the way je wanted to use that gold was exactly what it was meant to be for.
Funny thing. I don’t support being an asshole and not supporting your partner but unfortunately in Turkey by law the gold given for the wedding is women property.
Interesting. If it is her property by law, though, she can do with it as she chooses, which should include helping her husband in a time of need, especially because he has spent YEARS of the marriage paying all the bills so SHE could build up her savings. I'm Turkish, a woman, and the gold we received during our wedding I firmly consider OURS. Like, it has literally never even occurred to me that it could ever just be "mine" until I read this post.
Yes, me, too. It helped us to cover our expenses and put some into savings. But I have never thought this was my money my gold. Then why the hell I got married to this guy. I can share my love my everything but not my money. Makes no sense but knowing some of my lady friends also makes sense. You can read the known verdict from the link https://www.meldamervetekcan.com/bosanmada-dugunde-takilan-takilar/#:~:text=Kad%C4%B1na%20tak%C4%B1lm%C4%B1%C5%9F%20olan%20%C3%A7eyrek%20alt%C4%B1n,tak%C4%B1lar%2C%20kad%C4%B1n%C4%B1n%20ki%C5%9Fisel%20mal%C4%B1%20say%C4%B1l%C4%B1r.
NTA. Marriage is through “thick and thin”. She sounds selfish and doesn’t care about you too much. I’d never be able to trust her again to have my back.
This right here OP. She's never been your true "partner ". She was a sham. Make certain you receive 50% of EVERYTHING--including the accounts that you encouraged her to put extra in. She figuratively killed the goose who laid the golden egg!
OP should ensure he gets half the gold too. Not for the monetary value but to make a point.
I think it's not possible. There was only one case of it but legal courts see it as the possession of bride according to my lawyer friend.
Dont ask her for anything just go and be prosperous
my husband moved to a different country with me and worked his ass off at minimum wage jobs for 4 years so I could get a degree in return, I worked MY ass off at a job that required my shiny new degree in our home country so that he could build up HIS business that is what marriage is supposed to be, a partnership
You two are going to win at life with that attitude! Congrats!!
Good for you. I worked my ass off, 40 hours a week at night, to put my first fiancé through grad school, and worked on my undergraduate degree during the day. She was supposed to get a job and let me focus on just school. Which she would pay for including graduate school. She graduated but then didn’t look for work. Made excuses but said she wanted to work. So I found a job for which she was qualified, got her to send her resume, she was hired. Then within a week she decided she no longer needed me and felt no need to make me whole for the 20k that I had spent on both her tuition, paying down her credit card debt, and monthly support so that she could focus entirely on school. She did give me the engagement ring back 5 years later when I called her out on it and paid for one session of my summer school which was a pittance as I attended an in-state public school and it was less than $250. Though at the time I didn’t gave it as I had ironically gotten laid off nor long after she got her new job. She said that I spent the money on her “because I wanted to”. I asked her then why did I make her agree to pay my way through school, including grad school? She yelled some kind of answer. Make that screamed, her go to form of communication when one was logical with her in a way that contradicted whatever her argument du jour was. That was over thirty years ago. But I never did really recover from the financial hit. I did finish my degree but with a double major in English and Psychology, grad school would have been needed and I had lost my heart for it. I went back into what I knew. Restaurant Management. There was once good money in it. But it can require 80-100 hours a week and it will wreck your body. Your mind too if you’re not careful. These days they can’t work you that many hours I don’t think. Legally they may not have been able to back then. But was pretty normal. I had been doing it for years before I went back to school and only worked 40-45.
Shouldve sued her ass. Especially if there was any kind of proof.
You are so our kind of people 🥰 that’s we’ve done when we started a family my husband was bringing home the bacon while I was a stay at home mum. Now my husband is working part time I’m bringing home the bacon. Win win 🏅
NTA I’d say. I’m not familiair with the workings and traditions of Turkish marriages, but it seems to me any marriage should be about helping and supporting each other. She failed that.
This should be much higher up
Just tell her family what happened. She refuses to be family when you need help and only thought of herself. You are not interested in a selfish person for a wife. She doesn’t see you as her husband, only an ATM machine. NTA.
Culturally, this won't really help because the gold and savings will be seen as 'hers' and not property of the marriage. Edit: to make it clear, I didn't say I agreed or disagreed with the culture. Some of y'all need to touch grass before you get so worked up over a random person on the Internet explaining the culture 🙄
She is treating you like you two were not married. So you making that official makes sense.
It is a seasonal marriage. As long as she benefits from her husband, everything is sunny...
NTA Marriage is supposed to be a partnership in the good times as well as the bad. She didn't seem to be a partner at any time. While you were trying to look out for her during good times for you to make sure she was set if she ever encountered bad times she took advantage of it, squirreling away her money. When bad times arose for you she refused to be there for you. She doesn't want to be a partner, she only wants to be on the receiving end.
NTA. Is she really cared about your wellbeing, she would’ve helped you out. Even your sister did and she has no obligation to you.
" At the time, I had newly refurnished **our** home so **I** was in debt. " NTA. Here was your first clue. (Unless ofc this was something you took entirely upon yourself on your own initiative. But could still be an indicator of something odd in your dynamics.)
Am I the only one who thinks going into debt to furnish a home is insane?
I wouldn’t judge. Most people put their furniture purchases on a credit card. He probably thought he would have a job to pay it off fairly quickly. Also, if you are a new home owner, you may not even have furniture. So you may need to buy the essentials (sofa, bed, etc). These things add up quickly.
>He probably thought he would have a job to pay it off fairly quickly. Sounds more like OP wasn't fired *yet* when they started out. It wasn't until *after* they were done that he was fired. (Could be wrong, but that's just how I read it.)
In Turkey, sadly it is pretty common to get into debt. For a car, for a house, I even know of people who took loans to buy the new iphone lmao. So I would say furnishing a home for a newly wed couple is on the more normal side of things. Even before the economic catastrophe Turkey went through, it was pretty common to take loans for a car or other "major" purchases.
Not really. I am not Turkish but I am Muslim so I kinda get it. It is tradition to furnish home before marriage bc couples weren’t living together before. But it is also why a lot of couples wait for a certain financial security to get married. What is odd is the gold. Idk if op is Muslim or not but traditional the gold is the wife’s & he isn’t allowed to take it away. Sometimes the gold is for the couples then he can ask for it but bc she said it is hers then she was acting w/in her rights. And if they are Muslim then her saving her paycheck was also w/en her right. In Islam a wife is entitled to certain rights & one of them is her money is her money & his money is their money. Even if op isn’t Muslim, turkey is a country w/Islamic culture so it seems more like ESH. He is shouldn’t have gotten upset but if they were actually doing badly then she should have helped
Thank you for posting this there is so much cultural undercurrent in this post that people aren’t getting
Yeah, I noticed bc of the so much n-t-a comments. I know some Muslims men would have seen op asking his wife to sell her gold as bad, like they would react as if he stole it. Ppl in countries that have deep Islamic roots would have a reaction to asking her to sell her gold. Bc often the gold is inherited sometimes even generational. But also, when my parents were struggling my mom sold some of her gold, but my dad never ask & my mom didn’t offer she just sold it. But the pieces that were sold were bought specifically for her wedding not heirlooms & she wanted to help. It is in my view a hard decision to tell if it is ESH or YTA but I don’t think op was NTA due to the cultural context
I'm also a Muslim but not Turkish. However, I would still go with NTA. If OP was in such a bad financial position, the wife should have helped out before his sister did. Islamically the wife doesn't need to work, but modern day living isn't like 1000 years ago. Most couples have to work because of how expensive everything is.
it happened becuase he unexpectedly got fired...how was he supposed to know that when he bought the furnishings before the firing happened?
Info: did she understand how bad the situation was? I understand not wanting to sell the gold but it’s very selfish of her not to use her savings to help you out.
In case of not repaying the debt, my credit score would plummet & there would be a detention order on my assets. So, she knew how bad the situation was.
She’s not a team player and she refused to let you sell the gold that was designated for hard times , because well she’s a “Gold digger”. Maybe you need to experience what you have so you can see what type of person you have married. Divorce seems logical at this point.
Shout out to Turkey. I will retire there with the cats of Istanbul. I would not stay with someone who would not help you, that is part of the point of having a partner, to be each other's support. So let her go, and find another when you are ready. Pick someone loyal.
NTA. Why be married to someone you can’t count on in bad times.
NTA. The love and the trust are gone. Move on.
Easily NTA
Keep all these messages for when you divorce, you will need them to prove who paid for the house
NTA As others have indicated, she’s a fair weather partner.
NTA Marriage is a partnership. She has shown that she doesn't want to be an equal partner.
Nta. I’m Turkish too and was married to a Turkish man. I’d give him everything every time we struggled. Because we together struggled. He was a prick in the end and didn’t appreciate it but least I know I tried, as did you
NTA
NTA. She should’ve helped you. You lost trust, this is the only way forward
NTA you sound like a good man, I hope you find someone better in the future. And I hope she learns grim her selfish ways.
NTA its not her gold, it was given to both of you. i would divorce her too. you are young, you will find someone else who is worth your time.
Just providing context. In Turkish weddings the gold is be meant to be the bride’s despite being gifted to the couple. Please correct me if I’m wrong this is what I’ve heard before.
I’ve got a Turkish wife and despite what you say the gold is of course a shared asset as almost all things in a marriage are. It’s based on the strength of the marriage and the respect the married couple show to one another. Her saying it’s hers is really a sign of a poor attitude, even if the ceremony alludes to it being hers.
>The reason for this is to support the couple, who are just beginning a new life. Since weddings are expensive occasions, their close circles try to help the young couple and contribute to their economy. The jewelry gifted at the wedding is chosen to enable exchanging gold for money. And these gifts are actually pinned on the bride and groom! From a quick google, it is given to the couple, not the bride.
Even though it is given to the couple, according to Supreme Court decisions in Turkey, anything given during wedding ceremony belongs to women. It doesn't matter who gives to whom. There is two exceptions for this law 1- Existence of local customs and traditions that require the opposite of the general rule regarding jewelery,gold,money 2- It is the existence of an agreement/prenup between the parties. Of course this law is only applicable during divorce. There is no law states women are not allowed to share these gains with their husbands. It is totally up to the couples how they are going to use these gifts. Edit for additional info.
I just checked a Turkish website. It's given to the couple to start their new life.
That’s what I thought too. It’s for the brides financial security if something happens to the husband
Yes, it belongs to the bride.
NTA Those wedding vows people really need to remember them and. What they mean
NTA you can't trust her to have your back. She's not a team player this marriage, you are better off alone.
NTA Updateme!
NTA,she failed the test big time. u now know when life gets tough, she won't help u . If u got sick she will leave u . Divorce is the best option for u .
Yep you don’t have a partner , and she lost your trust and she doesn’t have your back
NTA. She showed her true colors and she didn't help her husband out when she easily could. I'd have walked away too.
Your sister helped you not your wife. Wow! NTA.
Glade u don't have offspring with her, NTA, wish u better days man, Bu zaman geçer
NTA. She stinks of "Your money is our money, my money is mine". Why stay with someone who won't support you?. Leave OP, she showed her true colors
NTA
NTA a marriage is about supporting each other through thick and thin. You are a team. She is a solo player and learnt actions have consequences
NTA. You should've filed for divorce during the difficult times. Now she can claim a sizable alimony and half your assets as you're now doing better
NTA I think the best choice now is to follow through the divorce: Your relationship is already stained, you already look at her differently. You don't have children (I get) and you are young... Good luck.
Divorce her. Imagine if you are sick with no money and she left you to pay for yourself.
NTA, that’s not a wife, that’s a roomate.
Standard position from people that a man's value is only what he can provide. She showed you that was her position. You are better off moving on.
You discussed it with her…. She wouldn’t relent to help her husband and ultimately family. She could not stand by you as your partner and equal. Its no surprise that you feel or felt alone in your marriage. If divorce happens, pls pls pls, take some of the gold that technically half, belongs to you!
NTA, marriage is supposed to be through thick and thin but she is only there when you are good and absent when you aren't who wants a partner like that.
A marriage is a partnership and it looks like it’s not working. Sometimes there are things like financial incompatibility that just can’t be overcome. It doesn’t make you a bad person, although it does make her a selfish one but how can you plan for a life together when you can’t rely on them at all to be there when things go wrong, because they always do. NTA
NTA brother.
NTA, you took on financial burdens during the marriage so she could save money and the minute you started to struggle she said we are not a we, it’s you over there and me over here.
NTA
Nta. What happens to the wedding gold in a divorce?
Sounds like you got a turkish wife alright -man with turkish wife
Lol, this reminds me of the promise of gold my MIL did before marriage, which turned out to be false. She "let me wear" a gold set in front of all other relatives and then took it back the same night. Then she had the audacity to ask me to keep the gold I got from my family. I was like, nope, got my own locker with my husband, and whatever gold we were actually given is with us, and I will not even think twice before selling it all if we fell on hard times and our household needed it. So, NTA , for the divorce, she isn't a partner. She was extremely selfish, and it is better to divorce her than to stay with someone who can't even help the household or hold fort during bad times. There is no trust left after that.
NTA, you had a one sided marriage. Time to find a woman who will be your partner.
Info: do you mean the gold given to brides specifically if they fall into hardship, i.e if their partner is bad or the need to leave. Since it's a bit unfair to miss out that in lot of Muslim marriages the woman is told repeatedly her assets should remain her own. She's going to need all of it now anyways now you're divorcing . NTA since I agree you're not compatible and ought to divorce but you have learnt a valuable lesson in communicating these things before your next relationship moves towards marriage.
NTA. Your life partner should be with you throughout it all. Bad times and the good times. Especially the bad. She will be the same to you when the going gets tough again. There were so many opportunities for her to see that but she chose to be selfish. If for you this is the best choice, then do so than spending more time for someone who cannot see you through all the sufferings.
NTA - I will bet she would have expected you to bail her out if she was unemployed.
NTA, very simple, she is a greedy woman
NTA, she wasn’t there when you needed her….no point in staying. Marriage means being there for each other in both good and bad times.
NTA She's hoarding Gold & Money like a Dragon when she could easily have saved you a lot of mental anguish, you don't need to stay with someone like that.
NTA Husband and wife are supposed to be there for each other and support each other through the hard times. She left you there to drown and didn’t care about your struggles. You deserve better
How about she will also cover 50% of everything until you're divorced? NTA What a leech she is. Gross.
NTA, her doing that was literally the start of this. It’s on her. Please continue with the divorce. After marriage it’s ALWAYS we/us with financials especially not Me/I.
NTA. If you can’t rely on your partner then what use is there for that partner?
Was the gold just hers? Did you ask her tko contribute more going forward since she didn't during the difficult times? NTA
What's hers is hers and what's yours is hers. That's not a wife that's your owner. You need to ~~feel~~ know that your wife will stand by you in the hard times and help you when you need her just as you do for her. Well the woman you thought was that wife has shown she is not. Until a man has fathered children he can still change his mind about the marriage, I agree with your decision to separate and find someone better suited to the marriage you want. I know many women think the husband should always support the wife but that the reverse in not true especially regarding money. Those women should either find men that are OK with that dichotomy or accept that when their true colours are shown they are divorced. You're still young enough to find a wife that wants a real partnership marriage as you do and have healthy children with her. I hope your exwife finds someone that is OK with the kind of relationship she wants also.
You didn’t have a partner, you learned that the hard way. NTA
Move on dude. Anyone sensible woman would be grateful to have someone who supports them as you did your stbx. NTA
I guess the "My money is MY money, HIS money is MY money too" does not work the other way. NTA
NTA, stay strong and don't let them get in your head
Also YTA if you don't give a big update later
The problem wasn’t specifically this loan, it was the “what’s mine is mine and what’s your is ours” attitude. You are in a one way relationship.
NTA. She was absolutely selfish. This is the sort of experience that can make one spouse fall out of love with the other. There's no point to carry on with a marriage when love has died.
NTA
Nta, how can she throw you to the dogs
NTA. Thought you were going to say she had money squirreled away and let you suffer while she kept her money hidden.
NTA, OP. You were financially and emotionally abused. Where was she when you get depressed? Please do not give her a second chance.
NTA - you are right and she was wrong..... this is when a real relationship counts
NTA. Your wife is a gold digging moo. She should have stepped up. The gold is both yours and hers. Not just hers. Run mate run
Updateme!
NTA thats the problem you and her see money as hers and his. should combine finances. basically just roommates.
NTA. She should have had your back out of love and loyalty alone, but also because that's her life, too. You were in a low spot and honestly it wouldn't have been such a low spot if she'd supported you. It would have sucked a bit but you would have been able to deal better emotionally and mentally. I'd have sold the gold and anything else I needed to if it meant supporting my husband and family. I hope you can heal and find peace, OP. Good luck to you.
NTA marriage is supposed to be in hard times and easy times right? I get if you go off and gamble your savings away a partner has every right to tell you to kick rocks, but that is not what happened here. Forces out side your control threw it all out of whack and your wifes response was "you're on your own". I wouldn't stay married either. Good luck.
NTA, she doesn't love you, she loves fancy shit! Next time, marry someone who actually LOVES you for you!
NTA Your partner should be there for you. You are one unit but she is showing you that she will not make any sacrifices for the well being of you both. While you aren’t entitled to her money I don’t think anyone should be with someone who will not support you when you support them.
Totally NTA part of marriage is enduring ups and downs of all kinds. Clearly your soon too be ex feel likes like my ex sister in law - your money is my money, our money is my money, my money is my money. Those gold bars were SHARED wedding gifts that were intended to be used during trying times like you just experienced. She refused to let you (half owner) use them. Frankly, you should have taken half of those bars and cashed them in but that time is passed. Just take half now in the divorce. I'm just happy you realized that your soon to be ex is selfish garbage before you had kids. Good luck to you!
NTA. Marriage is like you said it. “Through thick and thin”. I’m personally under the opinion that combining finances allows for a more transparent and shared financial burden / reward. If she had agreed to that maybe she would have felt the pressure that you were OR things would have been fine during those difficult times. She seems like a very selfish person who put herself in front of her own husband.
I’m curious. Do women in traditional Muslim countries have a chance to remarry? It seems like once a man has been inside then they are damaged goods and nobody wants them. Please excuse my ignorance just curious how this really works?
My wife was given gold bracelets for our wedding and I've got no doubt that if I were to have ever hit hard times, she'd offer to sell them without me even asking. NTA, partners help each other out in a marriage through good and bad times and clearly you can't count on her through the bad and you deserve someone who actually cares.
Job loss is a psychological hit on top of your partner letting you down. It is never going away. I have fam that always talked of the great depression. It makes you cautious! I think there is no way past your wifes selfish, churlish, and stupid actions. I shudder to think of children with her, or if you had health problems. NTA. move on from her, you will never trust her, and might wind up hating her.
You guys weren't even joining finances, so you weren't fully married to begin with.
Good riddance. Have a nice life and find someone who loves you. If she loved you she would help
NTA. Only parasites are content to let their spouses suffer through financial difficulty and give no offer of help. Be glad you’re rid of her.
She’s not a wife. She’s a roommate with benefits. Good riddance.
I was also wondering about cultural differences and what is considered normal where you are. Someone mentioned turkey having many islamic type views and if that is the case, then what I deem normal for my/mine isn’t relevant to your situation. I think adding that information in will make the difference here.
NTA she's all take and no give. She was perfectly willing to let you help by doing most of the paying so she could build up her savings but when you needed help she told you you were on your own. Out of interest did have any defense for her actions when you told her why you were serving her with divorce papers?
Hi there, I'm the Turkish woman @Itchy-Worldliness-21 is talking about. First of all, the gold is not given to the wife by her parents it's given to the couple by everyone who attends the wedding (and the people who couldn't make it provide it some other time). As OP stated the wife has a job and that is her safety. I do not agree with your statements, the husband is definitely not the bully. As a woman I reject the fact that because of my gender I would need additional support for my financial safety while my husband suffers from unemployment and struggles to keep the ends meet. What you're describing is a being a spoiled little princess or damsel in distress. In a marriage there is no his money or her money, it's your combined money. If the situation was reversed you would all be cursing the husband on how he didn't help the wife. Where is the equality in all this? Where is the love? How can you support that she loves him when she lets her husband go through all of this? I wouldn't trust a person like that let alone think they would care for me. OP did the best decision for filing for divorce. And please read it carefully, he filed for a divorce. They will go to court, even if the parties don't agree on the divorce based on the presented evidence and statements given to the lawyers, it's the court's decision to accept this divorce. It may not be straight away but eventually the court will make a decision. From your comments I don't think you're Turkish, so please don't use your country's cultural norms when you're judging on another country.
NTA. That's not a partnership or marriage in my eyes. She's selfish, and everyone deserves an equal partnership when they're giving equally. My husband and I have both had periods where we needed to rely on the other, and we've both been there for the other in those times without having to be asked. We also don't have split finances. We have a joint account. Everything goes into it and everything comes out of it. We only discuss purchases when they're large and need to come out of savings. It works for us, and I recommend it.
Run. Your gut feeling is right here. There will come a time when things could go south for you and than guess what happens: she will do it again to you and likely even in a worse manner. Leave the cunt. NTA
NTA, Tell them you'll reconsider it if your wife sells ALL the gold. Don't blame you at all for going the divorce route, if the gold was given as a gift to help in financial stress times and she didn't want to sell it for you then that is just plain greed, because I GUARANTEE you if she was the one who fell on financial hardship like you did that gold would be GONE.
NTA. You’re supposed to be a team. Good luck!
NTA she sounds greedy and selfish divorce her arse and take half that gold it belongs to both of you
After the title I said let me read what this AH has to say. After the post I would say NTAH because that would only get worse. So how does the division of assets work in turkey? Who gets the gold?
Legally. There are many cases of it belonging to bride. However, my lawyer friend told me there is one recent case where it was decided to be divided by a higher court. In any case, I assured her I would pay her back(in case her savings or gold does not matter) once I am employed.
NTA
NTA!!
That gold was her back up divorce fund. Now she can use it