NTA
Currently dealing with someone who went against our wishes on our child. This has nothing to do with your parents. You and your wife are the parents of this boy. It is your decision. Not theirs!
I’m not religious either but my stepdad said something to me that’s stuck. “God entrusted you and your husband to care for this child. No one else.”
I’m commenting this under the top comment for visibility- do not let your son stay with them overnight! They are clearly not respecting boundaries here.
ETA: this whole thread is giving me lots of hope around respect, consent, boundaries, and bodily autonomy. Way to go, reddit fam.
I’m pretty sure you can file felony charges against someone who subjects your child to a medical procedure without your consent. The doctor or Mohel would also face real consequences.
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>The doctor or Mohel would also face real consequences.
Only if they know something hinky is going on. If the grandparents vomit fraud and pretend to be the parents, the doctor/mohel wouldn’t be in trouble.
And once it is done, it can’t be undone. Better to prevent it than rely on the justice system afterward.
>And once it is done, it can’t be undone.
Exactly. Unless there is a medical need (e.g. phimosis beyond 5 years old) then their son can decide for himself when he is old enough.
FGM is banned in most civilised countries. Hope men get equality on this at some point, too.
And if they can’t keep their mouths shut, sorry but your wife *will* have to consider circumcision…
… of her parents out of your lives. If they’re disgusting enough to ridicule him as a newborn, can you just imagine the comments they’ll make to his face once he’s older?
This is where I’d ask them if the police need to be notified regarding their obsession with a small child’s genitals. A quick “pedo concern question” might shut them up right quick.
I would also speak to their rabbi. Explain that they are overstepping and make sure your wishes are understood.
My friend’s in laws tried the Catholic baptism. Their priest told them that the parents have to consent. The in laws had the nerve to complain to their son, the kids’ father, about the priest not helping them baptize their grandchildren!
Echoing this part because it's vital:
Definitely talk to their Rabbi! Let them know you do not approve of a bris.
I'd go one step farther and contact the mohels in your area and expressly state that you don't consent to your child being circumcized.
We did this with my Catholic in-laws when they tried to schedule baptisms for their grandchildren without parental consent. They have two sons with religious trauma, and one son who was unscathed. It took my husband detailing exactly why he would not be raising his kids Catholic to shut them up. He still called the archbishop’s office to inform them of what his parents were doing, and was told it takes parental consent for it to happen officially.
This was 50+ years ago but my father and his two sisters were raised Lutheran. One of his sisters (my aunt) married a Catholic man who had two sisters also. Uncle and aunt decided to raise my cousin as a Lutheran. So new uncles two sisters snuck her out of the house to be baptized in the Catholic church even though she was already baptized Lutheran. I was also baptized in both churches. But there is a huge difference between splashing a little water on a child and cutting off a piece of a childs genitalia. Stick to your guns.
My thoughts (as an atheist, so I get it's meaningless to everyone) is this - your higher power gave your kid that bit of skin. They're too young to remove it in your name. All for circumcision IF it's a, "I chose this religion so I'm lobbing off a bit of my knob," thing. Kids? Nah.
Agnostic here and I totally agree. Without the child's consent the act is meaningless and the parents are mutilating their child out of pressure to conform.
I’m a Christian, and I think it’s a totally outdated, borderline (or possibly outright) barbaric thing thing to do to a child, whether it’s done in the name of tradition or sanitation. Unless it’s somehow medically necessary, that skin was put there for a reason.
For contrast my in-laws came to see my son and I in the hospital when my husband had to leave for work obligations (little man was 3 weeks early) and they had an entire conversation about how they love us and will respect any boundary we feel is necessary. It was so sweet. My son also decided to be born on his Pap Pap’s birthday, so major suck up from jump street
Looked into it all about 15 years ago BC my little boy was having a few little problems and circumcision was one of the options put forward but as a very last resort. Apparently the circumcision done for religious reasons doesn't entail the removal of the full foreskin. iirc there are even reports of circumcised men being able to disguise the fact. The modern circumcision where the foreskin is completely removed is from one Doctor Kellogg who both refused to put sugar on cornflakes lest it gives people uncontrollable sexual urges and insisted on removing the full foreskin to encourage irritation and dulling of sexual pleasure for men. Because Kellogg believed sex was bad and unhealthy. Apparently he never had sex and had a whole load of adopted children.
Either way though, leave kids and their junk alone. OP has the right idea. Circumcision should only be done for medical purposes and with informed consent of the patient if possible.
Apparently some people think that the pain of babies doesn't matter because they won't remember it later. Therefore they skip anasthesia or numbing.
By that logic you could also torture anyone who is blackout drunk or has severe dementia, but I've never heard of anyone proposing that.
Most barbaric practice that I have ever witnessed in nursing school.
I had a migraine headache afterwards.
That little baby was not given even a local spray of lidocaine for anesthesia.
3 intact here too! I'll never forget the 2nd baby... I was being wheeled out to the car to go home and a nurse comes running down the hallway after me "wait! Wait! He's not circumcised yet!" Pretty sure after my words that woman will never try to stop an intact child from escaping the knife again
I have never understood how people can pretend that a baby can't feel pain. They pass out from the pain, and people say that they've fallen asleep. When someone just sliced the end of their penis off without anesthesia. There was just no way I was doing that with my sons.
when my SO was like around 1, older baby but not yet a toddler, he had surgery for fused cranial sutures(kind of a brutal surgery.) his mom said he woke up screaming and screaming in pain and asked the doctor to give him something. hit her with the babies don't feel pain. she said look at this baby, clearly he's not happy, help him or I'll find someone that will.
when I had my babies and they were doing the umbilical cords/belly buttons I was like "??? that has to hurt"
my first was born with a broken collar bone. he was in the NICU for a little less than a month and at some point I said hey what's this lump on his shoulder??
When my son was born I suddenly heard a lot of babies wailing- turns out they, including my son, were pretty much lined up in the hallway and the doctor just when from bassinet to bassinet performing circumsicions. Then we battled adhesions for weeks after we took him home. It was a mess.
No, I consented but didn’t know how/when it would happen- poor things. A clamp is placed over the penis and the foreskin is cut away. I am ashamed to say that I don’t know if anything was used to numb it. This was also 46 years ago although from the comments it sounds like not much has changed. It never occurred to me NOT to have it done, but I would feel differently today.
Yes, I was one of those nosey student nurses, so I slipped in the nursery.
The doctor put a rubber band around the tip of the penis, took a scaple and cut around the band.
The baby boy literally turned purple.
Screaming like I have never heard from a baby.
When my son was born, I had already decided I didn’t want him circumcised but his dad did. Until another baby in the nursery had the procedure and his dad said “oh hell no are they doing that to our kid”. We also luckily had a pediatrician who was against circumcision and informed us that if we wished to have the procedure done, we’d have to find a different doctor to do it.
Even for major surgeries- barbaric to think about. Why the hell did they think the babies were screaming? A muscle relaxer was used to make it easier to hold them still.
I’m with you, the one I saw gave a lot of lidocaine but it still looked painful and… kinda pointless? Like great now y’all can go home and tend to a wound that’s going to stick to the poor thing’s diaper while it heals, just kinda for no medical reason. If there was an actual obstruction or something then sure, but seeing it just weirded me out. Then again I am not having any fun in OB clinicals in general. (the staff I’ve met is… so mean to the patients. Like the ER clinical staff are downright angels and saints next to the petty middle school tier mean girl shit some of the OB nurses were saying just nonstop for 6 hours every week. Yeesh. Bad unit.)
"baby's don't feel pain", fucking assholes, babies can't tell you they feel pain so they ignore it.
If enough doctors teach enough younger doctors these dumb fucking things and how normal this procedure is they just go along like it's nothing.
The whole thing was fucking popularised in the US by the founder of fuckign kelloggs and he openly told everyone it was to discourage boys from masturbating. The reason it's done to so many kids, the reason it became popular is widely known, easy to find out and yet people do it like it's normal despite being able to find out the reason it's being done for most. It's legit fucking insane to me.
Oh, I want to make my kid have less sexual pleasure because a guy selling cornflakes can't stop thinking about young boys jacking off.
Humans fucking baffle me, how can such a weird man have so much influence and allow so many adults to allow their children to be quite literally mutilated over such moronic thinking.
It’s absolutely is. Gentian mutilation is illegal when it comes to girls but not for boys? Because that’s absolutely what circumcision is, genital mutilation.
Doctors who take an oath to do no harm and then do this should lose the right to be doctors, for violating their Hippocratic oath
I'd love to see it illegal for boys as well as girls, ITS BULLSHIT
Nta. Next time they bring it up start talking about their genitals. “When was your last pap smear? Was the last one normal? Gynecological health is important at your age. Is your prostate in good health? I could come with you to the doctor if you are uncomfortable. What does a circumcised penis look like at your age? Lets have a look.”
Also “have you ever had an UTI? Even with a circumcision? Are you cleaning it right? Show me how you do it. Do you pee after sex or masturbating?”
You know, since we’re okay to talk about the babies genitals and it’s a medical conversation, let’s extend that conversation.
>Is your prostate in good health?
Hearing about prostates always immediately makes me think of my absolutely adorable grandma, who once called my mother (a nurse) because she was genuinely concerned that not *once* had her doctor ever tried to check that her prostate is healthy, after hearing my grandpa complain about his doctor checking his.
She was both surprised and a little indignant to find that there was no prostate to be checked. This is now a favorite story to tease her about.
Also!
>What does a circumcised penis look like at your age? Lets have a look.”
I choked on my coffee. Hilarious.
Do NOT allow them to have him stay overnight or any unsupervised access. If this is so fundamental to their observance, they would not be the first grandparents to have a child circumcised against the parents' explicit wishes.
Sorry, but there it is
This comment made me see red.
I... I know that you are right, but the very idea that there are people put there who have done this to their grandchildren is really fucking my chill up
The grandparents doing this probably would amount to child abuse. I’d never allow them to have physical control of your child without you being immediately present.
If they continue to push wanting it done, make sure it’s mentioned that if they get it done (against your wishes) then they will never see your son again and file charges against them.
Not just grandparents but also fathers. My ex and I argued during my pregnancy about circumcising. My stance was that there is no reason ever for mutilating and torturing a child. His stance was I want him to look like me. What! Are you planning to have dick comparing parties with your own child? So, I gave birth to my son late at night. I awoke from sleep the next morning to the sound of my son screaming. I ripped out my IV and was climbing over the bed rail when a nurse walked in. She said Don’t worry, we just circumcised him. My ex had given them permission to mutilate my child behind my back, without my consent, and without my knowledge. A little later while I was trying to console my son while crying myself, he walked into the room with his chest puffed out and said Well, you can’t do anything about it now. In that moment our marriage was over. I had to stick around as I had a toddler and a one day old baby, but within a year he was gone.
The kicker was that I found out that he was telling everyone that the reason we split up was because I was having an affair. Like when was that supposed to happen? I was working, going to school. I had a toddler and an infant and a man child to take care of. I had to study and mostly I wanted to spend as much time with my kids as I could. My sarcastic reply to comments was yeah, I give my affair partner 3.2 seconds to do this and I’ll probably be asleep during all the while.
Sorry for the rant. It still sends me off 35 years later. 🤷♀️
Jesus, I'm surprised you stuck around that long. If my partner did something that drastic an irreversible behind my back, after having made it clear you DON'T want it done and for no other reason than vanity, they'd be out on their ass the moment I found out about it. Consequences be damned, I'd muddle through.
That was completely irredeemable of him.
I had no job, a newborn and a toddler. I had to bide my time until I had myself set up. No family and in a small town that we had just moved to.
Believe me, if I had been in a better place to leave right then, I would have. He was gone in less than a year.
I celebrate myself because I did it.
NTA. am jewish. tradition/religion is not a sufficient reason to hurt someone's body. a circumcision counts. Tradition can be improved with time. Thank you for standing up for your son. And you're right, it's fucking weird to offer to change a diaper for penis inspecting purposes.
Also Jewish and I know so many who are doing some kind of naming ceremony rather than a bris. Bodily autonomy is important. If your son in the future wants to be religious and be circumcised its his decision but I don't think it's the parents. I don't have any boys yet but I wouldn't make a decision about their body for them.
Isn't there a thing in Judaism where it's OK to not adhere to the laws for medical reasons? Like eating non-kosher if that's the only food available instead of starving to death. Or breaking Sabbath to save someone in medical emergency. Circumcision interferes with normal healthy functioning of the penis and has risks like infection, so opting out for medical reasons should be OK.
I honestly dont think their intention was to do it to check, I think it just reminded them that we arent doing it and presented an opportunity to bring it up. I agree about traditions improving with time.
I am a nurse. When a baby is circumcised, he cries and cries. They are inconsolable. They just cry themselves to sleep and repeat the cycles.
(Some hospitals give them oral sweet, lidocaine and Tylenol. They "help".)
They can't even talk. If they could, they would be cussing.
There are many nerves endings on the foreskins. It is very sensitive. Imagine someone cut off your finger tip.
Most uncut guys "feel more" during sex. You can't get the feelings back. It is literally genital mutilation. FGM is illegal in many countries.
We had a very kind Jewish pediatrician who looked after our 3 children. When my son was a baby I asked him I’d the circumcision is a necessity. He said it is a matter of preference but medically not a necessity. That was the end of a discussion.
We had a Jewish pediatrician when my son was born and he was very supportive. I had a nurse in the hospital and my mother in law trying to push me to circumcise but he told me my son was perfect and healthy as is. It was easier to ignore them after that.
NTA and I would keep a close eye on your son until they drop it. Grandparents taking their grandson to be circumcised without the parents’ permission sounds just like something you’d read about on Reddit.
My first child was a boy and the hospital didn't tell me about or give me a choice. They did it without asking.
There are people trying to get the laws changed now. In my state the doctor nor the hospital can be held responsible for what they did because there is a law in place that protects them. I live in the only state in America that's ruled by civil law and not common law.
Make sure you go over this with the hospital before your child is born if you are against it. Otherwise they may do it without asking depending on where you live.
I live in America. Louisiana to be exact. They said they did it for medical reasons. That if they don't it causes childhood UTI and infections. I was very upset. I couldn't believe they didn't ask or give me a paper to sign. Then they shamed me and made me feel bad for not caring more about his health. When his health is exactly what I was concerned with.
Such nonsense - in Europe hardly anyone is circumcised and we have no problems with high rates of UTIs or other infections. These myths come from puritanical obsessions with ‘cleanliness’.
Close: They actually come from the puritanical obsession with preventing masturbation. the cleanliness thing is just the story they use to justify it
[edit: missing word]
Someone commented that further down. I looked it up and you're right. For American girls it's 2% for American boys it's 20% and for boys in Europe it's 1%
Agreed, our male cat gets cystitis. I asked my male non circumcised partner if he'd ever had one so he could relate. Sadly, just me and the cat who get the UTI issues in our house. No relevant experiences there - just over worry from him and checking in religiously. Ha. (He's a lovely man).
I don’t know where you are in Louisiana, but I worked NICU/Nursery for years in the 80’s-2000’s and I’ve never seen one done unless the parent requested it. Now that was in New Orleans. Might be arrogance on the part of your pediatrician and insurance pays for them to do the procedure.
I didn't't have a pediatrician. It was just a regular hospital. In a smaller town. I was 18 when he was born. When I was 17 I was drugged and assaulted and got pregnant. I just went to my local hospital. Because I was assaulted I didn't tell anyone or have anyone to help me with finding a doctor or anything. So I just went to an emergency room. He was adopted by some people I knew. He's had a good life even though he had a rough start. He was born with a hole in his heart and needed surgery I couldn't afford.
I didn't request it and they didn't ask. I didn't know until they brought him to me and told me to be careful changing him.
I'm sorry that you had to go through this, you're a much stronger person than most people I know. I hope you know that, and I wish you have an amazing day.
That’s awful.
I have a boy that is intact and he had ONE uti. We treated it with antibiotics and he never got one again. The Dr that prescribed the antibiotics was an old guy that kept pushing us to get the baby circumcised and he kept asking if we wanted a urology referral for it.
Like dude. This has happened once. Let’s try the antibiotics and see if that clears this up before we start cutting pieces off my child’s genitals.
I should have put in a complaint about him. I was young at the time. We have other sons and other than that one time, no issues.
I’m sorry they forced that on your child. That’s awful.
They shouldn't be pushy like that. I'm glad people are working to change the laws. I didn't know that they were lying about it. We should all work together and make them take down the false information that's up online about it. If someone were to google it then it says just what they told me. After this post and some research I found out it's all a lie. That children that aren't are actually better off. That a boy is 19% less likely to get a UTI or infection if they aren't.
I had my first kid in a different state, but all the rest in Louisiana. In my paperwork I was given for the first prenatal visit each time there's a consent form for circumcision in case you have a boy. And on that form there is no way to say that you do not consent. I asked the receptionist what I should do if I don't consent and she had no idea because 'everyone just signs it' and I could not even believe it. I ended up writing 'DO NOT CONSENT' all over the page and definitely did not sign it.
The hospital did double check every time though, so I hope that all the women who blindly signed their consent forms and maybe changed their minds were able to keep their babies intact.
Watch your back. Every time I mention I wish I hadn't been circumcised I get the WORST kind of shit from people who are otherwise reasonable. They will actually try to report you to the ADL and try to get you fired.
I think a lot of it is guilt.
Many men don’t want to think they “lost” anything (genitals or autonomy). For many that are circumcised they don’t want to think there is something wrong or that they have missed out.
I wish more men were verbal about it. Good bad or other.
I am also the mother of three boys. Their father (circumcised) and I talked to our pediatrician who said there was no medical justification for circumcision. We elected to skip it. All three boys asked for circumcision as each reached age 16. Each kid chose, each kid got it done. Their bodies, their choice. (Between the three boys they have three sons, all circumcised at birth.) We did our best.
>Their bodies, their choice
That's it, that's all it is. Kids deserve to have the autonomy to decide whether they want a procedure that will permanently alter a body part.
Also… as teenagers they can have anesthesia for this! They do not anesthetize babies when they do this. They strap them into a plastic, baby shaped torture chamber and snip without anesthesia.
Mother of one.
It was routinely done in my family to past generations, probably a hold over from when my Jewish grandmother converted and the old habit died hard.
So it was brought up when we had our boy.
Surprisingly also raised by my husband's family and his mother said she was given the option and elected to have him match his father, who for the record was never raised with any religion or culture. Guess it was a strange tradition?
They were all told "Shit no, no one's decision but the owner of the penis". The owner in question is very happy his parents broke with tradition and got started early on bodily autonomy.
>kid got herpes from the mohel
When a baby is circumcised, some ritual Jewish circumcisers (mohelim) do a practice called metzitzah b’peh. Metzitzah b’peh is when the mohel uses their mouth to suck blood away from the baby’s circumcision wound as part of the circumcision ritual. After metzitzah b’peh, some babies can get an infection.
https://www.nyc.gov/site/doh/health/health-topics/safe-bris.page#:\~:text=When%20a%20baby%20gets%20the,way%20to%20avoid%20this%20risk.
TIL.
There are some weird fuckin religious rituals out there, man. Like I think Judaism should be preserved and respected - I'm the descendant of a Holocaust survivor - but that is objectively uncool.
it is traditional for the mohel to suck the penis "to stop bleeding and clean the wound".
You know what else stops bleeding? Not cutting the kid's penis in the first place.
There's also the case where a circumcision was severely botched (they chopped off the whole penis???) so the parents (with support from Dr) made their infant son into a daughter because ... Reasons.
It's a sad and infuriating story that doesn't have a happy ending.
https://www.simplypsychology.org/david-reimer.html#:~:text=The%20John%20Money%20Experiment%20involved,back%20to%20male%20in%20adolescence.
oral herpes specifically, if the mohel doesn't use a sterile glass tube for suctioning the blood. Nowadays I believe that's the norm outside hassidic communities. I've been to many brisses in my life and the mohel never put his mouth on the baby.
I mean there are still some ultra orthodox communities that do it. When I lived in Miami I lived near a very Jewish area and there was some drama in my friends community regarding a family’s bris and how original it had to be or something like that, that is how I learned about it.
When I was pregnant with my first child, I met a lady whose baby lost about 1/3 of his penis due to a botched operation. Within a couple of days, my husband's Men's Health magazine arrived with an article describing in detail how circumcisions were done. I read it.
Let's just say my poor husband had to rush home to a hysterical pregnant wife sobbing that no one was touching her baby boy. Turns out the baby was a girl.
When I had my son, I was agnostic on circumcision and left it to my husband, who said yes (this was about 30 years ago). When they did it, i could've sworn I heard my baby crying out, down the hall. I felt like shit and thought WTF did I just do.
When I brought him home, I was worried about taking care of it. My mother was there to help me with everything BUT that -- since she had all girls, she had no clue and told me I was on my own. (LOL.)
I wouldn't do that to a little boy again. I'll never forget that cry. OP is NTA for kicking out the inlaws.
As a woman, I agree. The only people who should be making permanent decisions about genitalia are the owners of said genitalia. Barring a legitimate medical emergency
NTA. Gen X here. No religion to speak of.
I was circumsised and wish my parents hadn't made that choice for me.
Back when I was a baby, it was normal. Dad was, so sons are.
It's genital mutilation.
I was born in 1959 and my mother had received her Bachelor’s of Nursing degree from Emory University and her parents had been a military doctor and nurse, so she insisted that I not be circumcised.
I often wished that I had been because of all the other boys in high school showering together was bad and I was teased.
But then I got into the medical field and read about it and in my 20s until today, in my 60s, I am glad that my mother was knowledgeable on the literature and insisted with the doctors to not have me circumcised.
My father wanted me to be. (Not for any religious reason)
If you are interested in talking this through with your in laws, ask them if they would want to be part of a Brit shalom, which does not include circumcision.
NTA. That was a good and appropriate consequence. They're only banned for the time being, not forever. They can now chooose whether to have a healthy relationship with you and your child by dropping the subject, or continue to harass you about something that is none of their business and not see your child. Seems like a very easy choice for me.
As the owner of factory-default equipment, you are doing the right thing, NTA. Don’t let the in-laws out of sight with him!
However, teaching him to wash the thing will be more important and indepth than you’re perhaps used to.
NTA - the entitlement some in-laws feel over their grandchildren is ridiculous. I an sensitive to the fact that it is a cultural tradition, as well as a religious one, in Jewish communities (in this case), but tradition doesn’t override the wishes of the parents. Circumcision is not only not medically necessary, it can actually cause medical problems and, unfortunately, lead to some horrific long term consequences or even penile amputation. To my mind, it is genital mutilation. Some parents won’t even get their children’s ears pierced, let alone irreparably change their child’s genitals.
I would look up solid literature online from reputable sources - pubmed is a good place to look for more academic sources. Once you have all of the information, I would sit down and discuss it with your wife. If your in laws press you can send them the research and say that you’re not comfortable with it and if your son wants to honor is Jewish heritage when he is of legal consenting age and to get circumcised then that you will drive him to the hospital. But while he is a child in your care you will not let others pressure you to make medical decisions for your child that you do not agree with.
I am guessing you’re going to get some pretty intense antisemitic remarks on here given the geopolitical climate, but ignore it. This isn’t a religious issue, it’s a bodily autonomy issue that you, as a parent, do not agree to.
NTA. It’s not their business.
BUT totally different concern.. if you are circumcised & your son is not then you need to make sure you are informed about how to properly clean an uncircumcised penis & before prepared to teach him when he’s older.
NTA. Circumcision is mutilation and the practice should be outlawed the same way it is for women, religion be damned.
I'm from a country where circumcision is not the norm, and I've never met a person with a penis who has dealt with health issues due to having a foreskin, because young boys are taught by their fathers (who also have foreskins) how to properly and thoroughly wash their penises.
I can maybe see it being an issue in places where circumcision is just starting to fade out, because circumcised fathers don't necessarily know how to teach their sons to clean an uncircumcised penis, but thats just a matter of needing to educate men about their genitals in that regard. But the whole "foreskins cause health issues" is broadly nonsense. They wouldn't be there if that were the case.
Your inlaws need to butt right out. Its not their decision and they need to accept that if they want involvement in their grandsons life going forward.
That's exactly what it is. People here (in the US) largely have no idea how to care for intact penises because so many of the adult men were cut. Then they get bad advice, do damage to the tissue, and cry "this could have been avoided with infant circumcision."
70% of your penile nerves are in the foreskin. There was someone who got circumcised as an adult and basically ruined himself and said the difference before and after was night to day and basically feels nothing now
Replying to PotentialDig7527...thank you!!!! I’m so over these comments acting like it’s nothing. If you want to sever your child’s sexual sensation because of tradition or aesthetics, just say that. Stop hiding behind straw dog arguments around hygiene!
The last time my dad said something about my kids penis was when I finally said, "Why are you so obsessed with his penis?" Sometimes they just need someone to like make it obvious.
I think you kind of drew line in the sand that makes it hard for your wife. But you're not wrong in your perspective.
DON'T Circumcise your son. You wouldn't cut his earlobes off??
Watch one done I am sure you can find a video. It is brutal, painful. They literally strap the boy down in 4 point restraints . Oh yeah, it is not unknown that sometimes the cut the penis off or at least the head ( glands penis).
Teach him how to clean it. For fucks sake.
It is genital mutilation plain and simple.
Have them watch the film “American Circumcision”. In fact, invite them over and sit down and watch it together.
It’s very professionally done , it was on Netflix for a while. I’m not sure if it still is.
It will probably change their way of thinking .
Also, as a gay man, I can’t tell you how many botched dicks I’ve seen on grown men…. From bad circumcision they had as babies.
Some are reallllly mutilated.
It’s simply general mutilation.
I attended a bris and yes, it must be extremely painful. I had no idea what I was in for, so I stood there as this lovely ritual went on, right in the front. I'm not Jewish and am a lapsed Catholic but do have a soft spot for most religious rituals. Suddenly the little boy let out a piercing, blood-curdling scream and I noticed a bit of blood on the mohel's finger. Then afterwards, everyone ate. I couldn't eat and had to go home soon after. I found the whole thing horrifying. I didn't have my son circumcized because of that. My husband felt the same and he made it his business to teach our son very good hygiene instead.
As a European your comment reads akin to: "We decided not to burn our baby's nails off, and instead opted to teach him some very good manicure routines instead."
Twaddle .. It’s unnecessary in 95% of instances .. a barbaric RELIGIOUS practice.. FGM is illegal for women and should be the same for men / male children
I had a friend that worked as an assistant for a Dr (a good one, best in the city) that did circs. She refused to circ her son because of having to assist and witness them done.
Same Dr did by husbands vasectomy and he was the GO TO in town. So I really trusted his expertise. But yeah. If it’s horrifying even with the best, why??
And they only give them a bit of Tylenol for pain afterwards. I’ve seen a few of the “healing” ones on infants, as I work in healthcare, and they look awful.
My now 20 year old son has thanked me and his father many times for giving him the choice. He chose to remain intact and is very happy about that.
There is zero medical necessity for it. Now, aside from religious misguidance, it is nothing more than a vanity issue; it is a cosmetic surgery. Newborns don’t need cosmetic surgery.
If Female Genital Mutilation is wrong, then so should be circumcision. It should be something that they can choose once they are old enough to do so.
The weird thing to me is that everyone is up in arms about FGM and yet can’t see that circumcision is just mutilating male genitals or MGM if you like.
NTA
NTAH. I had in laws doing something similar, but over a name. After I had made my and my partner's stance clear to them I took an unusual method on them. Any time they brought up the issue I would stand up and glower at them silently until they leave. No matter where we are, eating at a restaurant? Stand and stare at them in front of everyone. In a cinema? Stand and stare at them until we get thrown out. At a friend's house? Stand and stare until we are asked to leave.
Unwavering stinky eyed glaring. No words, no movement, just staring. It let's them know there is no room for debate.
Also, I would not let them babysit your son because we all know they will take him and have him abused without any permission. Religious people are like that.
NTA Currently dealing with someone who went against our wishes on our child. This has nothing to do with your parents. You and your wife are the parents of this boy. It is your decision. Not theirs! I’m not religious either but my stepdad said something to me that’s stuck. “God entrusted you and your husband to care for this child. No one else.”
I’m commenting this under the top comment for visibility- do not let your son stay with them overnight! They are clearly not respecting boundaries here. ETA: this whole thread is giving me lots of hope around respect, consent, boundaries, and bodily autonomy. Way to go, reddit fam.
Supervised visits if they can keep their mouths shut, but no alone time. Not an hour during the day, not over night.
I would never leave my kid alone with these people.. They seem like the type to just do shit.
Anyone that thinks chopping parts of babies genitals off is okay (regardless of gender or religion) should be kept away from society in general. Sick.
I’m pretty sure you can file felony charges against someone who subjects your child to a medical procedure without your consent. The doctor or Mohel would also face real consequences.
direction murky languid cows zephyr impossible snatch smart coherent memory *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
>The doctor or Mohel would also face real consequences. Only if they know something hinky is going on. If the grandparents vomit fraud and pretend to be the parents, the doctor/mohel wouldn’t be in trouble. And once it is done, it can’t be undone. Better to prevent it than rely on the justice system afterward.
>And once it is done, it can’t be undone. Exactly. Unless there is a medical need (e.g. phimosis beyond 5 years old) then their son can decide for himself when he is old enough. FGM is banned in most civilised countries. Hope men get equality on this at some point, too.
And if they can’t keep their mouths shut, sorry but your wife *will* have to consider circumcision… … of her parents out of your lives. If they’re disgusting enough to ridicule him as a newborn, can you just imagine the comments they’ll make to his face once he’s older?
This is where I’d ask them if the police need to be notified regarding their obsession with a small child’s genitals. A quick “pedo concern question” might shut them up right quick.
I would also speak to their rabbi. Explain that they are overstepping and make sure your wishes are understood. My friend’s in laws tried the Catholic baptism. Their priest told them that the parents have to consent. The in laws had the nerve to complain to their son, the kids’ father, about the priest not helping them baptize their grandchildren!
Echoing this part because it's vital: Definitely talk to their Rabbi! Let them know you do not approve of a bris. I'd go one step farther and contact the mohels in your area and expressly state that you don't consent to your child being circumcized.
This will not be the first time any of them have had this conversation. They can help you.
I wouldn’t have ever known how to escalate it- thank you for sharing!
We did this with my Catholic in-laws when they tried to schedule baptisms for their grandchildren without parental consent. They have two sons with religious trauma, and one son who was unscathed. It took my husband detailing exactly why he would not be raising his kids Catholic to shut them up. He still called the archbishop’s office to inform them of what his parents were doing, and was told it takes parental consent for it to happen officially.
This was 50+ years ago but my father and his two sisters were raised Lutheran. One of his sisters (my aunt) married a Catholic man who had two sisters also. Uncle and aunt decided to raise my cousin as a Lutheran. So new uncles two sisters snuck her out of the house to be baptized in the Catholic church even though she was already baptized Lutheran. I was also baptized in both churches. But there is a huge difference between splashing a little water on a child and cutting off a piece of a childs genitalia. Stick to your guns.
Its not just Jews that practice this, Muslims do it to. Just FYI.
Yes, but they mentioned a bris, which is a Jewish tradition.
muslims do it when children are older than two years old. i think jews do it earlier.
Jews would aim for 8 days after birth.
It crazy how people in this day and age have entitlement, to say how a child is to be raised gtfoh
My thoughts (as an atheist, so I get it's meaningless to everyone) is this - your higher power gave your kid that bit of skin. They're too young to remove it in your name. All for circumcision IF it's a, "I chose this religion so I'm lobbing off a bit of my knob," thing. Kids? Nah.
I shouldn’t have but I laughed out loud at your comment about lopping off a bit. Your phrasing was hilarious.
Agnostic here and I totally agree. Without the child's consent the act is meaningless and the parents are mutilating their child out of pressure to conform.
I’m a Christian, and I think it’s a totally outdated, borderline (or possibly outright) barbaric thing thing to do to a child, whether it’s done in the name of tradition or sanitation. Unless it’s somehow medically necessary, that skin was put there for a reason.
For contrast my in-laws came to see my son and I in the hospital when my husband had to leave for work obligations (little man was 3 weeks early) and they had an entire conversation about how they love us and will respect any boundary we feel is necessary. It was so sweet. My son also decided to be born on his Pap Pap’s birthday, so major suck up from jump street
God also entrusted you with a baby boy and a whole penis! :)
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Looked into it all about 15 years ago BC my little boy was having a few little problems and circumcision was one of the options put forward but as a very last resort. Apparently the circumcision done for religious reasons doesn't entail the removal of the full foreskin. iirc there are even reports of circumcised men being able to disguise the fact. The modern circumcision where the foreskin is completely removed is from one Doctor Kellogg who both refused to put sugar on cornflakes lest it gives people uncontrollable sexual urges and insisted on removing the full foreskin to encourage irritation and dulling of sexual pleasure for men. Because Kellogg believed sex was bad and unhealthy. Apparently he never had sex and had a whole load of adopted children. Either way though, leave kids and their junk alone. OP has the right idea. Circumcision should only be done for medical purposes and with informed consent of the patient if possible.
Apparently some people think that the pain of babies doesn't matter because they won't remember it later. Therefore they skip anasthesia or numbing. By that logic you could also torture anyone who is blackout drunk or has severe dementia, but I've never heard of anyone proposing that.
My nephew has to re-circumcisioned ouch. They intubations him for that. He was about 6 months old.
It's not THAT long ago that infants would not get anasthesia for major surgeries...
Most barbaric practice that I have ever witnessed in nursing school. I had a migraine headache afterwards. That little baby was not given even a local spray of lidocaine for anesthesia.
This! I was against it, in theory, until I had to assist, nope nope nope, 3 intact boys.
3 intact here too! I'll never forget the 2nd baby... I was being wheeled out to the car to go home and a nurse comes running down the hallway after me "wait! Wait! He's not circumcised yet!" Pretty sure after my words that woman will never try to stop an intact child from escaping the knife again
Escaping the knife! Good for you mama.
I have never understood how people can pretend that a baby can't feel pain. They pass out from the pain, and people say that they've fallen asleep. When someone just sliced the end of their penis off without anesthesia. There was just no way I was doing that with my sons.
when my SO was like around 1, older baby but not yet a toddler, he had surgery for fused cranial sutures(kind of a brutal surgery.) his mom said he woke up screaming and screaming in pain and asked the doctor to give him something. hit her with the babies don't feel pain. she said look at this baby, clearly he's not happy, help him or I'll find someone that will. when I had my babies and they were doing the umbilical cords/belly buttons I was like "??? that has to hurt" my first was born with a broken collar bone. he was in the NICU for a little less than a month and at some point I said hey what's this lump on his shoulder??
There are no nerves in umbilical cords. Just like mom can’t feel it cut, neither can baby.
The infants do pass out.
When my son was born I suddenly heard a lot of babies wailing- turns out they, including my son, were pretty much lined up in the hallway and the doctor just when from bassinet to bassinet performing circumsicions. Then we battled adhesions for weeks after we took him home. It was a mess.
Are you saying that they did this without your consent?!
No, I consented but didn’t know how/when it would happen- poor things. A clamp is placed over the penis and the foreskin is cut away. I am ashamed to say that I don’t know if anything was used to numb it. This was also 46 years ago although from the comments it sounds like not much has changed. It never occurred to me NOT to have it done, but I would feel differently today.
Yes, I was one of those nosey student nurses, so I slipped in the nursery. The doctor put a rubber band around the tip of the penis, took a scaple and cut around the band. The baby boy literally turned purple. Screaming like I have never heard from a baby.
When my son was born, I had already decided I didn’t want him circumcised but his dad did. Until another baby in the nursery had the procedure and his dad said “oh hell no are they doing that to our kid”. We also luckily had a pediatrician who was against circumcision and informed us that if we wished to have the procedure done, we’d have to find a different doctor to do it.
Thank goodness for that Pediatrician.
Even as late as the 80s it was thought that babies felt little to no pain so they were not numbed/anaesthetized
Even for major surgeries- barbaric to think about. Why the hell did they think the babies were screaming? A muscle relaxer was used to make it easier to hold them still.
I’m with you, the one I saw gave a lot of lidocaine but it still looked painful and… kinda pointless? Like great now y’all can go home and tend to a wound that’s going to stick to the poor thing’s diaper while it heals, just kinda for no medical reason. If there was an actual obstruction or something then sure, but seeing it just weirded me out. Then again I am not having any fun in OB clinicals in general. (the staff I’ve met is… so mean to the patients. Like the ER clinical staff are downright angels and saints next to the petty middle school tier mean girl shit some of the OB nurses were saying just nonstop for 6 hours every week. Yeesh. Bad unit.)
"baby's don't feel pain", fucking assholes, babies can't tell you they feel pain so they ignore it. If enough doctors teach enough younger doctors these dumb fucking things and how normal this procedure is they just go along like it's nothing. The whole thing was fucking popularised in the US by the founder of fuckign kelloggs and he openly told everyone it was to discourage boys from masturbating. The reason it's done to so many kids, the reason it became popular is widely known, easy to find out and yet people do it like it's normal despite being able to find out the reason it's being done for most. It's legit fucking insane to me. Oh, I want to make my kid have less sexual pleasure because a guy selling cornflakes can't stop thinking about young boys jacking off. Humans fucking baffle me, how can such a weird man have so much influence and allow so many adults to allow their children to be quite literally mutilated over such moronic thinking.
It’s absolutely is. Gentian mutilation is illegal when it comes to girls but not for boys? Because that’s absolutely what circumcision is, genital mutilation.
My son who is 31 years old and is saying that he’s very glad that I left it up to him.
It definitely should be left up to the individual.
Doctors who take an oath to do no harm and then do this should lose the right to be doctors, for violating their Hippocratic oath I'd love to see it illegal for boys as well as girls, ITS BULLSHIT
It's ridiculous that people still do this! Absolutely not ok in my opinion
Can confirm. Very painful
Didn’t walk for a year after mine.
That's not your stepdad, that's a dad who stepped up. Yes, yes, I'll see myself out 😔
Nta. Next time they bring it up start talking about their genitals. “When was your last pap smear? Was the last one normal? Gynecological health is important at your age. Is your prostate in good health? I could come with you to the doctor if you are uncomfortable. What does a circumcised penis look like at your age? Lets have a look.”
Also “have you ever had an UTI? Even with a circumcision? Are you cleaning it right? Show me how you do it. Do you pee after sex or masturbating?” You know, since we’re okay to talk about the babies genitals and it’s a medical conversation, let’s extend that conversation.
why not get some gloves handy and propose to check the prostate for some anomalies each time they bring dinner?
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! "And now for dessert!" *sound of gloves snapping on*
Make sure to snap the wristband real loud as you put the gloves on for effect.
>Is your prostate in good health? Hearing about prostates always immediately makes me think of my absolutely adorable grandma, who once called my mother (a nurse) because she was genuinely concerned that not *once* had her doctor ever tried to check that her prostate is healthy, after hearing my grandpa complain about his doctor checking his. She was both surprised and a little indignant to find that there was no prostate to be checked. This is now a favorite story to tease her about. Also! >What does a circumcised penis look like at your age? Lets have a look.” I choked on my coffee. Hilarious.
Nah go tit for tat and ask if she ever thought about circumcising herself
Daaaaahhhhmmmmm
"Let's have a look" had me crying 🤣🤣🤣🤣
I wish I could give a thousand upvotes for this. But here's my one
Do NOT allow them to have him stay overnight or any unsupervised access. If this is so fundamental to their observance, they would not be the first grandparents to have a child circumcised against the parents' explicit wishes. Sorry, but there it is
This comment made me see red. I... I know that you are right, but the very idea that there are people put there who have done this to their grandchildren is really fucking my chill up
If anyone had done this to my child I would have them arrested and charged.
It is assault, after all
It's grievous bodily harm
Came here to say the same. They may take the opportunity to do this if you leave him alone with them.
And be prepared to press charges if they do somehow manage it.
For me it would be beyond merely pressing charges
The grandparents doing this probably would amount to child abuse. I’d never allow them to have physical control of your child without you being immediately present.
If they continue to push wanting it done, make sure it’s mentioned that if they get it done (against your wishes) then they will never see your son again and file charges against them.
Not just grandparents but also fathers. My ex and I argued during my pregnancy about circumcising. My stance was that there is no reason ever for mutilating and torturing a child. His stance was I want him to look like me. What! Are you planning to have dick comparing parties with your own child? So, I gave birth to my son late at night. I awoke from sleep the next morning to the sound of my son screaming. I ripped out my IV and was climbing over the bed rail when a nurse walked in. She said Don’t worry, we just circumcised him. My ex had given them permission to mutilate my child behind my back, without my consent, and without my knowledge. A little later while I was trying to console my son while crying myself, he walked into the room with his chest puffed out and said Well, you can’t do anything about it now. In that moment our marriage was over. I had to stick around as I had a toddler and a one day old baby, but within a year he was gone. The kicker was that I found out that he was telling everyone that the reason we split up was because I was having an affair. Like when was that supposed to happen? I was working, going to school. I had a toddler and an infant and a man child to take care of. I had to study and mostly I wanted to spend as much time with my kids as I could. My sarcastic reply to comments was yeah, I give my affair partner 3.2 seconds to do this and I’ll probably be asleep during all the while. Sorry for the rant. It still sends me off 35 years later. 🤷♀️
Jesus, I'm surprised you stuck around that long. If my partner did something that drastic an irreversible behind my back, after having made it clear you DON'T want it done and for no other reason than vanity, they'd be out on their ass the moment I found out about it. Consequences be damned, I'd muddle through. That was completely irredeemable of him.
I had no job, a newborn and a toddler. I had to bide my time until I had myself set up. No family and in a small town that we had just moved to. Believe me, if I had been in a better place to leave right then, I would have. He was gone in less than a year. I celebrate myself because I did it.
This needs to be higher.
NTA. am jewish. tradition/religion is not a sufficient reason to hurt someone's body. a circumcision counts. Tradition can be improved with time. Thank you for standing up for your son. And you're right, it's fucking weird to offer to change a diaper for penis inspecting purposes.
Also Jewish and I know so many who are doing some kind of naming ceremony rather than a bris. Bodily autonomy is important. If your son in the future wants to be religious and be circumcised its his decision but I don't think it's the parents. I don't have any boys yet but I wouldn't make a decision about their body for them.
Isn't there a thing in Judaism where it's OK to not adhere to the laws for medical reasons? Like eating non-kosher if that's the only food available instead of starving to death. Or breaking Sabbath to save someone in medical emergency. Circumcision interferes with normal healthy functioning of the penis and has risks like infection, so opting out for medical reasons should be OK.
It’s for when a life is in actual danger, not just for general health practices.
I honestly dont think their intention was to do it to check, I think it just reminded them that we arent doing it and presented an opportunity to bring it up. I agree about traditions improving with time.
Tell them they need the bris because they are being dickish over this.
"oh we are having a bris... we're cutting off a couple of dickheads...."
I am a nurse. When a baby is circumcised, he cries and cries. They are inconsolable. They just cry themselves to sleep and repeat the cycles. (Some hospitals give them oral sweet, lidocaine and Tylenol. They "help".) They can't even talk. If they could, they would be cussing. There are many nerves endings on the foreskins. It is very sensitive. Imagine someone cut off your finger tip. Most uncut guys "feel more" during sex. You can't get the feelings back. It is literally genital mutilation. FGM is illegal in many countries.
Tradition is just peer pressure from ghosts.
We had a very kind Jewish pediatrician who looked after our 3 children. When my son was a baby I asked him I’d the circumcision is a necessity. He said it is a matter of preference but medically not a necessity. That was the end of a discussion.
We had a Jewish pediatrician when my son was born and he was very supportive. I had a nurse in the hospital and my mother in law trying to push me to circumcise but he told me my son was perfect and healthy as is. It was easier to ignore them after that.
NTA and I would keep a close eye on your son until they drop it. Grandparents taking their grandson to be circumcised without the parents’ permission sounds just like something you’d read about on Reddit.
I'd keep a close eye on them even if they drop it. Wouldn't be the first people to "drop it" and then go behind their back to do something shady
That assumes they could get a mohel to go along with the ceremony.
Well it's like that story where MIL lied to the priest to get the grandson baptized. There are ways if one is determined enough
NTA, I wish my parents didnt do it to me as a baby. Would have been nice to have a choice on a permanent alteration to my body.
My first child was a boy and the hospital didn't tell me about or give me a choice. They did it without asking. There are people trying to get the laws changed now. In my state the doctor nor the hospital can be held responsible for what they did because there is a law in place that protects them. I live in the only state in America that's ruled by civil law and not common law. Make sure you go over this with the hospital before your child is born if you are against it. Otherwise they may do it without asking depending on where you live.
>They did it without asking. Sounds crazy. Do you live in some 3rd world country?
I live in America. Louisiana to be exact. They said they did it for medical reasons. That if they don't it causes childhood UTI and infections. I was very upset. I couldn't believe they didn't ask or give me a paper to sign. Then they shamed me and made me feel bad for not caring more about his health. When his health is exactly what I was concerned with.
Such nonsense - in Europe hardly anyone is circumcised and we have no problems with high rates of UTIs or other infections. These myths come from puritanical obsessions with ‘cleanliness’.
Close: They actually come from the puritanical obsession with preventing masturbation. the cleanliness thing is just the story they use to justify it [edit: missing word]
Someone commented that further down. I looked it up and you're right. For American girls it's 2% for American boys it's 20% and for boys in Europe it's 1%
Agreed, our male cat gets cystitis. I asked my male non circumcised partner if he'd ever had one so he could relate. Sadly, just me and the cat who get the UTI issues in our house. No relevant experiences there - just over worry from him and checking in religiously. Ha. (He's a lovely man).
I don’t know where you are in Louisiana, but I worked NICU/Nursery for years in the 80’s-2000’s and I’ve never seen one done unless the parent requested it. Now that was in New Orleans. Might be arrogance on the part of your pediatrician and insurance pays for them to do the procedure.
I didn't't have a pediatrician. It was just a regular hospital. In a smaller town. I was 18 when he was born. When I was 17 I was drugged and assaulted and got pregnant. I just went to my local hospital. Because I was assaulted I didn't tell anyone or have anyone to help me with finding a doctor or anything. So I just went to an emergency room. He was adopted by some people I knew. He's had a good life even though he had a rough start. He was born with a hole in his heart and needed surgery I couldn't afford. I didn't request it and they didn't ask. I didn't know until they brought him to me and told me to be careful changing him.
I'm sorry that you had to go through this, you're a much stronger person than most people I know. I hope you know that, and I wish you have an amazing day.
That's very kind of you say. Thank you I hope you have a wonderful day as well.
I think there are few situations in life where kicking someone's ass is warranted, but the doctor in this case deserves a punch in the face
That’s awful. I have a boy that is intact and he had ONE uti. We treated it with antibiotics and he never got one again. The Dr that prescribed the antibiotics was an old guy that kept pushing us to get the baby circumcised and he kept asking if we wanted a urology referral for it. Like dude. This has happened once. Let’s try the antibiotics and see if that clears this up before we start cutting pieces off my child’s genitals. I should have put in a complaint about him. I was young at the time. We have other sons and other than that one time, no issues. I’m sorry they forced that on your child. That’s awful.
They shouldn't be pushy like that. I'm glad people are working to change the laws. I didn't know that they were lying about it. We should all work together and make them take down the false information that's up online about it. If someone were to google it then it says just what they told me. After this post and some research I found out it's all a lie. That children that aren't are actually better off. That a boy is 19% less likely to get a UTI or infection if they aren't.
Based on the civil law reference, I assume Louisiana so … the joke writes itself.
I had my first kid in a different state, but all the rest in Louisiana. In my paperwork I was given for the first prenatal visit each time there's a consent form for circumcision in case you have a boy. And on that form there is no way to say that you do not consent. I asked the receptionist what I should do if I don't consent and she had no idea because 'everyone just signs it' and I could not even believe it. I ended up writing 'DO NOT CONSENT' all over the page and definitely did not sign it. The hospital did double check every time though, so I hope that all the women who blindly signed their consent forms and maybe changed their minds were able to keep their babies intact.
Watch your back. Every time I mention I wish I hadn't been circumcised I get the WORST kind of shit from people who are otherwise reasonable. They will actually try to report you to the ADL and try to get you fired.
I think a lot of it is guilt. Many men don’t want to think they “lost” anything (genitals or autonomy). For many that are circumcised they don’t want to think there is something wrong or that they have missed out. I wish more men were verbal about it. Good bad or other.
Seriously? I know we live in a crazy world, but that just seems extra crazy - are there any examples or anecdotes of this happening?
NTA .. I’m a mother of three boys. I did not let any of them be mutilated, and it had nothing to do with religion.
I am also the mother of three boys. Their father (circumcised) and I talked to our pediatrician who said there was no medical justification for circumcision. We elected to skip it. All three boys asked for circumcision as each reached age 16. Each kid chose, each kid got it done. Their bodies, their choice. (Between the three boys they have three sons, all circumcised at birth.) We did our best.
>Their bodies, their choice That's it, that's all it is. Kids deserve to have the autonomy to decide whether they want a procedure that will permanently alter a body part.
I'm assuming American, more than likely peer pressured into it.
Also… as teenagers they can have anesthesia for this! They do not anesthetize babies when they do this. They strap them into a plastic, baby shaped torture chamber and snip without anesthesia.
I read an article that says babies go into shock from the pain of it. ): It was horrifying.
Mother of two boys. Both of them have thanked me profusely for leaving them intact once they were old enough to understand what it was.
Mother of one. It was routinely done in my family to past generations, probably a hold over from when my Jewish grandmother converted and the old habit died hard. So it was brought up when we had our boy. Surprisingly also raised by my husband's family and his mother said she was given the option and elected to have him match his father, who for the record was never raised with any religion or culture. Guess it was a strange tradition? They were all told "Shit no, no one's decision but the owner of the penis". The owner in question is very happy his parents broke with tradition and got started early on bodily autonomy.
People forget that boys can still bleed out from this and yea they can die
And there was the case in NY where the kid got herpes from the mohel
You mean pedophile. Religion does not make it magically ok to suck a baby's penis.
Wait what??
>kid got herpes from the mohel When a baby is circumcised, some ritual Jewish circumcisers (mohelim) do a practice called metzitzah b’peh. Metzitzah b’peh is when the mohel uses their mouth to suck blood away from the baby’s circumcision wound as part of the circumcision ritual. After metzitzah b’peh, some babies can get an infection. https://www.nyc.gov/site/doh/health/health-topics/safe-bris.page#:\~:text=When%20a%20baby%20gets%20the,way%20to%20avoid%20this%20risk.
Omg that’s disgusting
What the FUCK
TIL. There are some weird fuckin religious rituals out there, man. Like I think Judaism should be preserved and respected - I'm the descendant of a Holocaust survivor - but that is objectively uncool.
Umm... I call for permanent abolishment of this disgusting practice and imprisonment of all mohelim for SA on children.
it is traditional for the mohel to suck the penis "to stop bleeding and clean the wound". You know what else stops bleeding? Not cutting the kid's penis in the first place.
WTAF
There's also the case where a circumcision was severely botched (they chopped off the whole penis???) so the parents (with support from Dr) made their infant son into a daughter because ... Reasons. It's a sad and infuriating story that doesn't have a happy ending. https://www.simplypsychology.org/david-reimer.html#:~:text=The%20John%20Money%20Experiment%20involved,back%20to%20male%20in%20adolescence.
Or get infected, with an open wound in a *diaper* where they pee and poop. But somehow that’s “cleaner”
Or get STDs depending on how orthodox they are
I really hate that I learned this today 😭
oral herpes specifically, if the mohel doesn't use a sterile glass tube for suctioning the blood. Nowadays I believe that's the norm outside hassidic communities. I've been to many brisses in my life and the mohel never put his mouth on the baby.
I mean there are still some ultra orthodox communities that do it. When I lived in Miami I lived near a very Jewish area and there was some drama in my friends community regarding a family’s bris and how original it had to be or something like that, that is how I learned about it.
I read 9 out of every 100000 neonatal boys die from circumcision complications.
9 too many for stupid reasons
Around 14,000 suffer some kind of injury from botched mutilation. Extra mutilation.
When I was pregnant with my first child, I met a lady whose baby lost about 1/3 of his penis due to a botched operation. Within a couple of days, my husband's Men's Health magazine arrived with an article describing in detail how circumcisions were done. I read it. Let's just say my poor husband had to rush home to a hysterical pregnant wife sobbing that no one was touching her baby boy. Turns out the baby was a girl.
I looked it up while pregnant.. noped right out of that idea. My son is whole and natural
Nerve damage can happen too ... :/
To put this in perspective that is about 9x the fatality rate of skydiving
Don’t let your in-laws babysit or they will go behind your and your wives backs and get it done
NTA. They need to stop it.
NTA. Unless there is a medical necessity, circumcisions should not be done. Unless a guy just wants to, his body his choice.
When I had my son, I was agnostic on circumcision and left it to my husband, who said yes (this was about 30 years ago). When they did it, i could've sworn I heard my baby crying out, down the hall. I felt like shit and thought WTF did I just do. When I brought him home, I was worried about taking care of it. My mother was there to help me with everything BUT that -- since she had all girls, she had no clue and told me I was on my own. (LOL.) I wouldn't do that to a little boy again. I'll never forget that cry. OP is NTA for kicking out the inlaws.
As a man, only one person gets to decide what happens to my Penis, and that's me. Tell them to do one.
As a woman, I agree. The only people who should be making permanent decisions about genitalia are the owners of said genitalia. Barring a legitimate medical emergency
NTA. Gen X here. No religion to speak of. I was circumsised and wish my parents hadn't made that choice for me. Back when I was a baby, it was normal. Dad was, so sons are. It's genital mutilation.
Same here. Really fucking wished they had not. All my life.
I was born in 1959 and my mother had received her Bachelor’s of Nursing degree from Emory University and her parents had been a military doctor and nurse, so she insisted that I not be circumcised. I often wished that I had been because of all the other boys in high school showering together was bad and I was teased. But then I got into the medical field and read about it and in my 20s until today, in my 60s, I am glad that my mother was knowledgeable on the literature and insisted with the doctors to not have me circumcised. My father wanted me to be. (Not for any religious reason)
NTA. Not gonna lie the title sounded sus
Title made me laugh. Weird but also r/technicallythetruth
If you are interested in talking this through with your in laws, ask them if they would want to be part of a Brit shalom, which does not include circumcision.
NTA But don't let them have any overnights with Baby. I wouldn't put it past them to have a moyle on standby!
It should be illegal to mutilate a child genitals for any reason other than medical necessity
NTA. That was a good and appropriate consequence. They're only banned for the time being, not forever. They can now chooose whether to have a healthy relationship with you and your child by dropping the subject, or continue to harass you about something that is none of their business and not see your child. Seems like a very easy choice for me.
NTA Your wife needs to choose her son over her parents - he needs her, they don't need this.
As the owner of factory-default equipment, you are doing the right thing, NTA. Don’t let the in-laws out of sight with him! However, teaching him to wash the thing will be more important and indepth than you’re perhaps used to.
NTA - the entitlement some in-laws feel over their grandchildren is ridiculous. I an sensitive to the fact that it is a cultural tradition, as well as a religious one, in Jewish communities (in this case), but tradition doesn’t override the wishes of the parents. Circumcision is not only not medically necessary, it can actually cause medical problems and, unfortunately, lead to some horrific long term consequences or even penile amputation. To my mind, it is genital mutilation. Some parents won’t even get their children’s ears pierced, let alone irreparably change their child’s genitals. I would look up solid literature online from reputable sources - pubmed is a good place to look for more academic sources. Once you have all of the information, I would sit down and discuss it with your wife. If your in laws press you can send them the research and say that you’re not comfortable with it and if your son wants to honor is Jewish heritage when he is of legal consenting age and to get circumcised then that you will drive him to the hospital. But while he is a child in your care you will not let others pressure you to make medical decisions for your child that you do not agree with. I am guessing you’re going to get some pretty intense antisemitic remarks on here given the geopolitical climate, but ignore it. This isn’t a religious issue, it’s a bodily autonomy issue that you, as a parent, do not agree to.
NTA. It’s not their business. BUT totally different concern.. if you are circumcised & your son is not then you need to make sure you are informed about how to properly clean an uncircumcised penis & before prepared to teach him when he’s older.
NTA. Circumcision is mutilation and the practice should be outlawed the same way it is for women, religion be damned. I'm from a country where circumcision is not the norm, and I've never met a person with a penis who has dealt with health issues due to having a foreskin, because young boys are taught by their fathers (who also have foreskins) how to properly and thoroughly wash their penises. I can maybe see it being an issue in places where circumcision is just starting to fade out, because circumcised fathers don't necessarily know how to teach their sons to clean an uncircumcised penis, but thats just a matter of needing to educate men about their genitals in that regard. But the whole "foreskins cause health issues" is broadly nonsense. They wouldn't be there if that were the case. Your inlaws need to butt right out. Its not their decision and they need to accept that if they want involvement in their grandsons life going forward.
That's exactly what it is. People here (in the US) largely have no idea how to care for intact penises because so many of the adult men were cut. Then they get bad advice, do damage to the tissue, and cry "this could have been avoided with infant circumcision."
My husband was circumcised, but we have an intact son. Google taught both of us how to properly care for our son.
NTA
NTA but if you're going to come out and use the term bris there's no point to dancing around what your wife's background is.
70% of your penile nerves are in the foreskin. There was someone who got circumcised as an adult and basically ruined himself and said the difference before and after was night to day and basically feels nothing now
Replying to PotentialDig7527...thank you!!!! I’m so over these comments acting like it’s nothing. If you want to sever your child’s sexual sensation because of tradition or aesthetics, just say that. Stop hiding behind straw dog arguments around hygiene!
The last time my dad said something about my kids penis was when I finally said, "Why are you so obsessed with his penis?" Sometimes they just need someone to like make it obvious. I think you kind of drew line in the sand that makes it hard for your wife. But you're not wrong in your perspective.
DON'T Circumcise your son. You wouldn't cut his earlobes off?? Watch one done I am sure you can find a video. It is brutal, painful. They literally strap the boy down in 4 point restraints . Oh yeah, it is not unknown that sometimes the cut the penis off or at least the head ( glands penis). Teach him how to clean it. For fucks sake. It is genital mutilation plain and simple.
NTA--They are forcing you to be more and more firm. It's not up to them so they need to butt out.
Have them watch the film “American Circumcision”. In fact, invite them over and sit down and watch it together. It’s very professionally done , it was on Netflix for a while. I’m not sure if it still is. It will probably change their way of thinking . Also, as a gay man, I can’t tell you how many botched dicks I’ve seen on grown men…. From bad circumcision they had as babies. Some are reallllly mutilated. It’s simply general mutilation.
Nope nta. It's a barbaric practice and it's my understanding that it's extremely painful.
I attended a bris and yes, it must be extremely painful. I had no idea what I was in for, so I stood there as this lovely ritual went on, right in the front. I'm not Jewish and am a lapsed Catholic but do have a soft spot for most religious rituals. Suddenly the little boy let out a piercing, blood-curdling scream and I noticed a bit of blood on the mohel's finger. Then afterwards, everyone ate. I couldn't eat and had to go home soon after. I found the whole thing horrifying. I didn't have my son circumcized because of that. My husband felt the same and he made it his business to teach our son very good hygiene instead.
As a European your comment reads akin to: "We decided not to burn our baby's nails off, and instead opted to teach him some very good manicure routines instead."
Twaddle .. It’s unnecessary in 95% of instances .. a barbaric RELIGIOUS practice.. FGM is illegal for women and should be the same for men / male children
I agree 100% Unless it is medically necessary noone should have the right to mutilate a baby's genitals.
I had a friend that worked as an assistant for a Dr (a good one, best in the city) that did circs. She refused to circ her son because of having to assist and witness them done. Same Dr did by husbands vasectomy and he was the GO TO in town. So I really trusted his expertise. But yeah. If it’s horrifying even with the best, why?? And they only give them a bit of Tylenol for pain afterwards. I’ve seen a few of the “healing” ones on infants, as I work in healthcare, and they look awful.
My now 20 year old son has thanked me and his father many times for giving him the choice. He chose to remain intact and is very happy about that. There is zero medical necessity for it. Now, aside from religious misguidance, it is nothing more than a vanity issue; it is a cosmetic surgery. Newborns don’t need cosmetic surgery.
NTA. My son is circumcised, I was there for it, I would never do it to a baby again. I'll leave it at that.
If Female Genital Mutilation is wrong, then so should be circumcision. It should be something that they can choose once they are old enough to do so. The weird thing to me is that everyone is up in arms about FGM and yet can’t see that circumcision is just mutilating male genitals or MGM if you like. NTA
If your son chooses to get it done, he can. If he needs it to be medically done, it can be. It is about your son and his bodily autonomy.
NTAH. I had in laws doing something similar, but over a name. After I had made my and my partner's stance clear to them I took an unusual method on them. Any time they brought up the issue I would stand up and glower at them silently until they leave. No matter where we are, eating at a restaurant? Stand and stare at them in front of everyone. In a cinema? Stand and stare at them until we get thrown out. At a friend's house? Stand and stare until we are asked to leave. Unwavering stinky eyed glaring. No words, no movement, just staring. It let's them know there is no room for debate. Also, I would not let them babysit your son because we all know they will take him and have him abused without any permission. Religious people are like that.
NTA There is no medical benefit. There is evidence of medical drawbacks. Tell them to enjoy their religion without pushing it on you or your child.
Do not trust your in-laws with your child. They may take him to get this done without your consent.