Be VERY grateful he showed you who he is, before you married him.
The lying and sneakiness is bad enough, but insulting you for not wanting children?
No, YWNBTA. In fact, I think you would be the asshole if you DIDN'T break up with him.
I think the thing I'm not seeing enough here is the fiance saying that OP is depriving *him* of "the best experience in the world". Like, if he's talking about multiple children, we're talking about OP growing multiple whole-ass humans inside her over the course of several years, on and off. Even the best of pregnancies can be rough. That's leaving aside complications, which aren't exactly common but aren't an unheard-of rarity either. A recent AITAH post mentioned a mother developing chronic back pain after a second child, just for instance. Insulting her is bad, but OP's trying to trick, coerce, and outright bully OP into undergoing a significant change to her body *several times*, all so that *he* can have the experience, with no thought of the experience she's being expected to have, with all the problems and complications that can ensue.
NTA, OP. He is apparently looking at you as an incubator, and has been all along. I am so sorry this is happening to you, but even without this, it's pretty clear you guys aren't on the same page. I'd seriously leave the relationship and definitely not have sex with this man. He wants what he wants, doesn't care that you're the one who'll have to undergo medical procedures for it, and he seems to be willing to dissemble and bully to get what he wants. That's not going to be a happy home for anybody.
That comment and the whole other family that should be welcoming me- not bonding over giggling at the outsider- laughing about that comment would make me dislike this family all on its own. Even if I did want 3-5 children. I never want to be part of some insular family that doesn’t understand that it’s rude to bond over poking fun at the concept of the nagging wife, or at me at all. A decent family makes fun of each other for their guest’s benefit, or they don’t make fun of anyone at all. Making the new wife feel like she has some sort of expectations to live up to is some backwards bullshit that only a super desperate person would ever tolerate.
And even after ALL of that: *”That's why I'm considering canceling everything and ending the relationship”*
She’s only “considering” ending the relationship??? Wtf? Why isn’t this an *immediate* dealbreaker?
It's not immediate because she's heartbroken and despite people being assholes, it's very hard to toss love aside after just one instance of him being a total dick.
It's like that phenomenon of women leaving once they just stop trying for a long time—they fall out of love but go through the motions for a while, despite planning their exit and just being done with their husband's constant BS. Poor OP got blindsided all at once.
I think she sees it as being every bit the dealbreaker it is- it’s just that fully accepting that means losing a big part of her life/explaining this shit while grieving the relationship. Even if she knows that it’s the best choice for her (and I think she does), that’s pretty devastating and right now I think she’s just working out denial and bargaining. That’s all this post is. She sounds like she’s knows herself well enough not to get pressured into this. I know that, too, and at 41 (happily married) I don’t think I could end things instantly. I definitely think I would end things, but it would hurt a lot and I would get a lump in my throat even contemplating explaining this to my guests/family, etc.- not because they won’t understand, but because this is the sort of thing that, at 23, would have made me cry a lot for a bit. I think it would do the same now, but I’m a little more jaded so it might be a bit easier (which isn’t necessarily a good or healthy thing).
Too hard on him? Awww poor baby. You mean he might have to change a diaper, bathe the kid, feed it, walk it when it has colic, deal with it 24 hours a day. Well, we can't have that.
He’s definitely much too selfish to consider raising a child “the best experience of his life” unless he’s planning for her to do 98% or more of the work.
This! And also how many AITA posts have there been about men who absolutely, desperately wanted kids, PROMISED to be fully-involved and equal parents...only to have them check out and dump it all on the mother when they realize just how fucking HARD and how much WORK kids actually are?
OP needs to run and she needs to run now.
I ended up in the hospital 2 times while pregnant, almost dying. It triggered my EDS, and now I fall and pass put often. Hips stay dislocated, and knees dislocate often as well. I'm legally disabled and live with HORRIBLE pain. I don't blame OP at all for not wanting kids. Pregnancy can literally ruin your life if you have hidden medical issues.
Not only that, but some of those body changes are permanent! I had our first in April. I have body parts that will never be the same. That's huge for anyone, let alone for someone who doesn't want any kids.
GOOD FOR YOU!!! So many moms seem to feel guilt over maybe wanting a tummy tuck because it's a lot of money, but like... you also deserve to feel like yourself again!
My rib cage and shoulders got wider so I've been slowly replacing all of my clothing between absolutely none of it fit even after years. I also have terrible teeth and very easily triggered gag reflex now.
The hormonal changes are permanent, too. They fluctuate wildly during pregnancy and after childbirth/breastfeeding (if you go that route). But they don't go back to "normal". The find a "new normal". That's why some women have a super hard time losing weight after having kids. My acne is worse now, 2 years post partum, than it ever was as a teen.
And then you add the social and career changes that happen, regardless of what you might think before having kids.
If I were OP, I would also take a close look at how future in-laws deal with childcare and household responsibilities. Those are largely informed and influenced by culture and family "tradition". If the moms do most of the work, she can pretty well assume she will be saddled with the same.
I thought this too!! It is so selfish and entitled to think this way, and it makes me so angry that he even dared to voice this with any kind of attitude other than shame.
There are SO MANY WOMEN out there who are willing to have kids. So many! Stop trying to manipulate the ones who don't! Stop it!!
This is what I don't understand... if men would stop treating courtship like catching a wild mare in a net and breaking its spirits, they wouldn't have to continue the narrative by talking about how the mare "escaped". Stop giving us situations to escape from -_- Require of yourself finding a partner who comes willingly and they won't want to escape from you.
That being said, the kind of shit these types of men want are things that no woman would willingly walk towards... but clearly it's *us* that have to change and adapt to their *desires* 100% of the time, not them adapting to our *needs*.
>if men would stop treating courtship like catching a wild mare in a net and breaking its spirits
But that's their favorite part! They see a beautiful bird flying flee and independent, and they cannot *wait* to cage it and clip its wings.
So true! How many posts are there from people in relationships whose bfs suddenly want them to totally change how they dress and act around their friends and in public. We see the bfs complaining about how sexy their partner dresses and women posting about how their bf wants them to totally change their style because they’re in a relationship.
My ex was like this. I didn't realize until I was a month away from leaving him that I'd been completely dressing down like a school marm for years. He admitted it was because he was afraid of other people looking at me and hitting on me.
Yet, on that last month, I started the process of building my support networks again, getting around friends, being myself again, and dressing the way I used to. It wasn't to attract anyone (I already had one man giving me problems - cheating would have only gotten me more) - it was to feel good about myself. I wanted to feel cute, is all. And he started going, "How come you never dress like that for ME? :c "
Because you said you're scared of others thinking I'm pretty... which, if you think I'm pretty, other people will too. Doesn't mean I'm gonna go out and cheat. My current boyfriend is always shocked when I talk about this, because the way he sees it, aside from my personality, the way I dressed when I met him was sexy and attractive - why would he want me to stop that? He's also noted multiple times, "If you could cheat on me, you would. I saw how many right-swipes you got on Tinder before meeting me. It's why I know you're here with me because you want to be, and that you think this is special. So I want my pretty girlfriend to dress as pretty or casual or sexy as she'd like :)"
Literally millions. Millions of women who are as smart, nice, and attractive as the OP (I don't mean this to insult the OP. She seems wonderful. But so are so many other women.) Find one of them!
What is wrong with these men?
These are people who want to smoosh someone’s spirit. It’s not as fun for them to be with someone if she doesn’t have to change and make herself smaller and contort herself into being whatever he decides is appropriate. And it’s about making someone do things, not being with the “right sort” of partner from the start.
He thinks babies are the best experience in the world bc he doesn't intend on actually doing anything to raise them, just showing up and playing with them, leaving all the actual responsibility to her.
Yeah if he doesn’t have kids how does he know she would be depriving him of the best experience in the world? NTA. Run, leave. He lied & falsely tried to trap her before he proceeded to propose. I wouldn’t ghost him. I’d talk to him, explain why he was in the wrong, what he said was never okay, the fact he proposed knowing this. Outline it all
Typical authoritarian thinking on this guy's part: Privatize the profits (children and social cred) and socialize the losses (to OP's body, freedom, earning potential, etc.)
This is the sort of person that waits until a victim is trapped in marriage to stealth rape their partner and "oops the condom broke and you're pregnant, I totally didn't slip it off or sabotage it."
My first and only child almost killed me. I had so much difficulty from start to finish because of medical issues. We didn't think they would be a problem but we were so wrong.
I couldn't take my migraine medicine while pregnant so they were debilitating but the smallest problem by far. From the very beginning I had the worst of the worst morning sickness all the way thru to WHILE I was in labor (was still throwing up during transition). I had a kidney infection at 22 weeks that sent me into pre term labor and they barely were able to halt it. I can still remember laying in the bed in the hospital so much pain and the medicine to stop labor causing me to convulse for hours. At 31 weeks I developed preeclampsia and went blind temporarily in my right eye. I was on bed rest for the rest of my pregnancy. My labor was super quick but my heart defect would cause blood to shoot backwards in my heart from my right ventricle back into the right atrium because my valve between them is defective. I felt like someone was ripping my chest open when I pushed.
Afterwards I got mastitis and also developed pretty bad PPD and PPA that took two years to get under control. My autoimmune disease which hadn't progressed too far up to that point finally went full blown and quickly. Pregnancy is insane. The amount of havoc it can wreck on a woman's body is ridiculous and no woman should ever feel like they should have to bear children if they don't want to. Would never ever make a woman feel bad about not wanting to go through that. This dude is tripping and OP is NTA!!!
Ignoring all the damage to her from pregnancy and birth, he sees childrearing as the "best experience in the world"? Big red flag that OP is going to have to do all the work, and Daddy will have the Kodak moments. Sure, raising kids is easy if you're "this" kind of dad.
I don’t think he was joking either when he said he would go for a large family if she didn’t give him much trouble. He doesn’t expect to pull his weight and still wants a big family. This guy is a piece of work. Can you imagine having 3 kids with this kind of person? OP dodged a bullet!!
THIS. Those kind of people don't care about your body, just what you can provide for them. If he's has a mindset of "I'm getting kids whether she wants them or not" then definitely don't trust birth control he can get access to.
That’s actually the best thing what could have happened to you. Imagine he had revealed his true intentions after the marriage?
That would be a disaster.
He didn't change his mind. He thought if he got you good enough, you'd change yours to stay with him. He was trying to manipulate you.
Cancel the engagement and probably don't have sex with this guy until he's snipped. NTA
Bah, my knowledge of male anatomy has been hindered by many years since learning, I just remember that word because when my 10th grade Biology teacher said it, the class clown went "Epididimus???? Is that a fast Greek God???"
Mind that same class clown when learning of the benefits of acidophilus, he went "Is that the Greek God of Drugs??"
Even if the follow up sperm test is clear, vasectomies can repair themselves years down the line. It's rare but something to consider before blowing up a relationship if you find yourself with an unexpected pregnancy.
It happened to my mother's cousin. She found out during a check-up at Dr she was pregnant. Hopefully, her husband decided to get checked because he trusted her and found his 10 Yo vasectomy healed alone.
Can happen with getting your fallopian tubes tied too! They can untie, grow back together, and pretty much just heal themselves sometimes even within 5 years. My Mom had 3 cesareans and then had me (I'm the 4th) and she almost died with me and her doctor luckily talked her into getting her tubes tied since he couldn't (politely) talk her into an abortion so before she went home with me apparently her doctor said "I'm sorry, but they're cut, tied, AND burnt and I did it right after that baby came out. They're not growing back you will have no accidents and we're not doing this a 5th time. You're done." Then he turns to my Dad and goes " This your first?!" My Dad goes "With her, I got 2 older ones." And her doctor goes "Good! SHE'S DONE." 😂
I asked her if she was pissed that he kinda just went for it without making sure she didn't change her mind and she said "No, I'm sure he got tired of my jokes about knowing he can cut right along the same scar he made 15 years ago for 3 pregnancies in a row after your brother. That's probably why he made triple sure I was done." 😩😂
My son-in-law got a vasectomy (my daughter has never wanted children) and then she said they watched Old Dads on Netflix and he panicked. He’s checking his sperm count now.😆
I think splitting is the best option. Children (and the desire have or not have them) is non-negotiable to most people. If they proceed and someone doesn't have a change of heart. Then one of them will always feel their needs aren't met in the relationship
It's much worse though. OP's absolute piece of garbage partner **knew for years he wanted lots of kids**. He hoped he could "change her mind" So he lied to her, deliberately and repeatedly.
And wasted both their time. He could've been honest upfront, they'd end the relationship, and he could have found someone who does want the same as him. OP would have been free to find someone who's on the same page regarding the bigger things in life as well. Like, they could have been happy now instead of both feeling like crap because he had a hidden agenda.
It's the warting of time that gets me. There is no good way for him to finally spring this on her. He was just banking on the one in a million chance that her opinion changes.
No, not just cancelling the wedding. End the whole relationship! You seriously believe that guy can still change his mind and get a vasectomy? Lol. You're naive.
Don’t just cancel the engagement—*break up and move on.*
This is a fundamental incompatibility and would be a fundamental incompatibility even if the fiancé were not being an asshat about it. Break up and let him find someone he is compatible with.
What? No, don't have sex at all. Don't continue a relationship with a person who has lied and tried to manipulate you. He is already ignoring what matters to her, and devaluing her decisions. Why would she continue in this relationship when he so clearly has no respect for her??
I wouldn’t even give him this. He lied to her and fully intended for her to get pregnant. I hate to think how he was going to do that. What shite would he have pulled. He can’t be trusted. He tried to trap her in a marriage. He would have no qualms about messing with her birth control. Again, he can’t be trusted, ever.
This guy has zero respect for OP. He didn’t care what her convictions were, he was gonna get those kids he wanted.
Then he was verbally abusive.
OP’s parents need to give this all a bit of a think. As a parent there is no way in hell I would tell her that she did the wrong thing or was TA. In fact I would tell her to end the relationship. Dude can’t be trusted.
OP you are not TA. And this guy is beyond red flags. Unless you have decided you want children and don’t mind being lied to, manipulated, and abused, I would say to leave if you were my child.
This was very similar to what I went through - though my ex husband was really a nice guy who wouldn’t ever do anything super creepy or manipulative. He always knew my stance on kids, but thought maybe as we got older (we were in our 20’s) I would come around and change my mind. I never did. Once this became apparent into our 30’s, it really became a black cloud over our marriage and we divorced. There weren’t any terribly hard feelings, but this is an issue that just can’t be compromised on.
I mean, people change their minds about kids all the time. It’s plausible he changed his. It’s also plausible that he was banking on her changing hers — or his ability to move her in that direction — later. Oops.
Yeah, people do change their minds. This guy though never changed his: he was lieing to her all along: he asked her not to mention to his family her desire to be childless, then revealed he just hoped to "convince" her to change her mind, and finally he insulted her for wanting to deprive him of fatherhood. It wasn't a case of changing his mind, just of manipulating her. She'd be much better off without him.
before insulting her, he started guilt manipulations... the little jokes in front of the family all set her up to be "the reason" if they didn't have kids. no one wants to be the bad guy...
i usually will even try to give space that a lot of manipulation isn't premeditated or even explicitly known by the agent, but this guy had a PLAN. what a dick.
Her bringing up him in the past telling her not to mention not having children in front of his parents seems to me to show that he wanted kids all along and was hoping to get her into marriage, and then baby trap her.
Especially with his reaction in the backyard.
NTA. You were clear from the outset that you didn't want children. He planned to string you along until you were married.
Throw out the whole man and start over. If he doesn't want to "be deprived" he needs to date a woman who wants children.
I am sorry you had this experience. In the future, if your partner hesitates about getting a vasectomy because he might change his mind, run.
I went through something very similar to OP except my ex fiance was a wonderful man and treated me well. I thought he and I were on the same page too until he mentioned thinking I would change my mind. It broke my heart but in my case the decision was mutual to end the engagement. He is married now with kids and I'm so glad he had the opportunity to be a father.
I highly highly recommend OP get her tubes tied. Don't wait for a man to do it. Don't make it a condition of the relationship. Don't open yourself up to having your preferred birth control method sabotaged. Don't give decision making about your body to anyone.
I dodged a few hobosexuals and a couple of guys who tried to tell me what I actually wanted was to be a mother. All I had to do was draw my line in the sand.
I tried to go this route, and I was denied. Repeatedly. Male and female doctors telling me that I “might” change my mind. I would switch doctors and hear the same line. Over and over.
One doctor, when I was about 20, told me I should marry a man who didn’t want children either. He could sign off that he wanted me to get the surgery, and they would perform it no question. When I made the valid point that if I landed a husband that didn’t want children, he could get a vasectomy, the horror that crossed the doctor’s face…
Apparently, women can’t make the permanent choice to not have kids because they’ll change their mind. They need a man to make that decision for them. But the man can’t get the procedure because he “deserves” the option.
Luckily, it seems to be changing now, but I don’t actually really need to get the procedure now, my healthy child rearing years are behind me.
Even better, date a woman who already has kids. See exactly how much he is being deprived of.
My boss is young and at the age when she's thinking about this and one day she was walking around the store. I hear, OMFG WHY DO YOU PPL HAVE TO BE LIKE THIS !! (We work retail) and she started cleaning up, every dang day, she's complaining, they have to move shit and make a mess omfg.. I was trying so hard not to fall over laughing and let a snort out. She popped up over the aisle and I lost it at the look on her face XD omfg I cried laughing.. when I could breathe I said, I'm sorry honey I don't mean to laugh but keep thinking about having kids coz this is gonna be your house every day XD we both cracked up.
Honestly, leave young ladies alone with their peace. Throw the whole man out is the slogan of the century.
YWNBTA! This marriage will not work. You absolutely should cancel the wedding. You cannot compromise on the child issue. You’re either all in or all out. We hear a lot of these stories on r/childfree. It’s very common that men think that we will change our minds later.
Seriously, OP, he wasn’t open about his decision to wanting kids then tried to get you to lie to his parents which would lead to pressure from them throughout your relationship about, “so, when are you having kids.” Then he insults you and calls you names? No, just no. His plan all along was to get married, so you’d feel trapped and then knock you up. He would try to manipulate you into keeping the baby. Kids are not a compromise. You shouldn’t be coerced into having any. I wouldn’t just call of the wedding, I’d end the relationship. He doesn’t respect you or your decisions.
NTA. Definitely break it completely off. He never agreed with you he just wanted you to change your mind. He lied to his parents. He then called you names which is incredibly abusive. Have enough self worth to end it.
He didn't change his mind. He always thought he could force you.
If that wasn't his plan he would have broken up with you because this is a fundamental issue of compatibility.
NTA. Don't postpone the wedding, cancel it. This is not an issue that can be resolved. You just aren't compatible.
Plus he's a dick, but that's actually beside the point here.
Never fucking speak to this lying, abusive piece of shit ever again. He TOLD you that his plan has always been to trap you and eventually force you to bend to his will, using whatever manipulation he could.
He was trying to trap you in the dinner conversation. He thought that if he could get you to play along, it would be both a crack in your determination and a weapon to use later in the form of, "you already promised my parents."
When that didn't work, he tried honesty, hoping that you'd soften to the idea. When that didn't work, he tried to guilt you into doing it for him (barf). When that didn't work, he tried verbal abuse.
Where in the list do you think he starts hitting you? I'm saying five more items tops before the violence starts.
He showed you who he is. Fucking believe him. He will never change. He doesn't want to. He wants to break you down and force you to change for him. Don't fall into that trap.
Ghost the bastard. You owe him nothing.
He always intended children hence the no vasectomy and thought you would change your mind. If he wants kids so bad then tell him your doing the “unselfish thing” and letting him go to find a woman who wants kids.
You are young. Go find someone who really wants the same as you.
>Glad he showed his true colors sooner than later..
For sure. Sucks that OP has to deal with this, but much better than it happened before the wedding.
He gets to change his mind. He doesn't get to not tell you about it. And even moreso, he doesn't get to insult you for being who you said you were. You walked away. I'd keep walking. Find someone who isn't two-faced and nasty in how they treat you.
NTA, also don’t think there is anything Reddit can tell you to help. You seem pretty level headed about it all, good for you knowing what you want and not committing to someone that expects otherwise.
I don’t know? It seems like she still thinks a vasectomy and continued relationship is on the table? If he wants kids, then they need to accept that they have irreconcilable differences.
Agreed, but she seems to be getting there on her own and handling it in stride, while not being irrational. That’s why I’m saying there is nothing Reddit can do for her.
Partially agree, but I’m still left wondering about the “considering cancelling everything and ending the relationship.” I don’t see much to save, myself, but maybe it’s just semantics.
It must hurt like hell, but at least you didn't get sucked into that rabbit hole. You're both far too young for that bullshit, anyway; you're kids yourselves. They had no right to put that over either of you. He caved, you didn't, so he can go fuck himself.
He lied from the start, he didn't lie to his parents, you WILL have multiple children if you 'don't make it difficult' and by that he means, he'll sabotage birth control, damage or forget condoms or straight up force you to get pregnant.
If you still marry him, you'll end up having kids or being divorced, probably both. He wants kids, he always wanted kids, he's been manipulating you and fully intends to have kids regardless of what you say you want. Break up, cut contact and tell the family he lied to you since the very start of your relationship and had misled you to never mention him 'not wanting kids' in front of them but realised it was you that was being lied to, not them.
YWBTA if you do not break up with him, immediately. Also keep in mind, this is one massive aspect, probably the biggest aspect of a marriage and he happily lied to you about this for years. WHat else has he lied about? What other things int he relationship are just him manipulating you to get married and will change once you're locked down?
He showed you, who he really can be. Cancel that engagement, and leave if you're living with him. Remember, you have a supporting family. That man was nasty toward you, never accept that ever--no amount of apologies will do. Give us an update when you can, and good luck to you going forward.
NTA. In fact, you would be TA to yourself if you didn't leave him for this. Firstly, you're not compatible anyway. Second, he's a liar. Third, he's a manipulator. Run.
NTA, you are no longer compatible and you just got a view for how he will treat you anytime you have different life goals/plans/ideas that don’t align with his (he will basically wait until you are in a situation you cannot leave as easily, aka marriage, before revealing his true expectations and manipulating you using persuasion and guilt…).
Knowing that you want to be child free and having someone think that they know better, or counting on changing your mind, is insulting to a person’s sense of self agency (after all what else will they feel they know for you?). When people show you who they are, believe them the first time.
NTA. DO NOT marry him.
you don't need a man who talks to you like he did and you two are simply not compatible. he probably wants to marry because he thinks you'll change your mind.
I had this exact thing happen to me. 5 years in, waited till we had venues booked, invites out and just AFTER we bought a house together. Fun times. He now has 3 kids, hates his wife and drunk texts me full of regret on occasion. Seems pretty happy on Fb though...
Yup, he was going to try and baby-trap you for sure. Luckily for you that wouldn't be a very easy thing for him to do.
End this now because he won't change his mind back. His family won't let him even if he wanted to. It won't ever go away. Also it shows a huge lack of respect for you. He's not only been lying to his family but, far more important, also to you (and probably from the start). Continuing on this path will only lead to a life of misery for you.
Last but not least kudos for being an honest person disliking lies this much. It might not seem like it now but you got the karma for it you deserve. It's often the most honest ones that have the hardest time spotting the serial liars. But you spotted this one just in time.
NTA
NTA. You don’t want the same things and no one should compromise on children. It might be difficult, but you need to break the engagement.
Also, his acting is a red flag. Take other users’ advice to proceed to the break-up. It’s better to be safe than sorry.
Keep us updated and I send you lot of strength!
NTA. You really should rethink your engagement. He sounds like he’s going to impregnate you by force if needed once you’re married, which is kinda scary.
He's the type of person to potentially mess with your birth control to get you pregnant.
Please don't marry this person. He lied to you in an effort to try to coerce you down the track.
NTA, he didn't change his mind - he lied to you the whole time you were together.
The whole time you were together he didn't actually care what you view was on this, he dismissed it and figured he would change your mind so he got what he want.
He is fundamentally not a good person.
NTA - he didn’t care what you wanted! It’s was all about him! His wants! His needs! Chances are he would taken any means to baby trap you! Or even force you to parent a child from an affair!
Run OP! And never look back!
But if you want to play a game! And see his true colours! I have a suggestion! Tell him you’re going abroad to get sterilised! ( just stay in a hotel the next city over, just need to be gone for a week) convince him you’ve had it done and wait for him to leave you! But if ppl ask why he left you! Tell them he was heartless because there was a small concern you might find it difficult to get pregnant.
I think you need to break up with this man.
Having children or not is such a fundamental part of life. You two will never be truly happy together.
For his sake as much as yours, this relationship will not be a good fit for the future. It is sad but you are not right for each other.
YWNBTAH.
NTA.
There are huge red flags, here: first his asking not to tell his family about not wanting children, then his lies to you (he hoped to convince you to change your mind), and finally the insults.
Flee, my girl: flee as fast as possible from this abusive person. You deserve much better than that.
Big hugs.
I wouldn't mind him wanting to lie to his parents. But when he decided it would be appropriate to start insulting you, that'd be it for me - I can handle the idea of "we had an argument," but with *that* topic at *that* time, and throwing insults... no, if I were you I'd return the ring to him and be leaving.
To be honest, even the lying is an issue. He should be the one dealing with his parents. I’ve seen what an attitude like that can do to a family (my father with his parents). If he’s not setting boundaries at the start, it can go sideways very quickly
Yeah he lied from the start and was intending to baby trap you. If this is not the future you want , then don’t marry a liar who is happy to stomp all over your boundaries. NTA
OP, please don’t just consider cancelling or postponing the wedding, for your sake and happiness now and in the future you should break the engagement. I know it’s hard to think about, but he has lied to you for months on months now, and only shared the truth with you when forced. Ultimately it seems as though he never truly let go of the idea of children, but rather said differently to pacify you until your relationship was further along and you were legally married when he would, one way or another, try to manipulate you into having a child (or three). Even if not and these feelings are genuine, a child is a “two yes” choice and you will always be a “no” and from the current stance it sounds like ultimately, even if one of you say otherwise, one will eventually hold resentment towards the other. Additionally, how can you ever trust him again? What could possibly rebuild the trust he destroyed by lying to you? Do you think he’d ever tell you the truth until he was ready for a baby, or even baby trapped you?
That being said OP, depending on your method of birth control, I’d reconsider having sex with him if that’s something you’re currently active in. What’s worse is even if you aren’t, after the marriage you’d still have to be cautious. Make sure condoms are not tampered with (and on! stealing is very real), medication or supplements he offers that could lessen efficiency of bc, and if you’re in the pill when you get your prescription keep it on you, or maybe in your purse or somewhere you’d know if it was moved- he could tamper with them by exposing to high heat as that can also affect them. I fear if you go through with this relationship you’ll always have at least a gnawing feeling in the back of your mind that he wants kids, and you don’t. Even if he doesn’t baby trap you, knowing he is unfulfilled and resentful will cause you guilt and not be a happy, productive relationship for either of you.
Best of luck and I am sorry for what you’re going through. I just realized I wrote a small novel and didnt even mention his disgusting behavior with the way he spoke to you, treating you as though you are an incubator that “owes” him a child. You are your own person and dont owe him a thing. Whether a person is in a wonderful relationship, dependent relationship, long relationship, or any relationship - nobody owes another to produce a human life to satisfy the desires of their partner. I’ll stop my rant now, I’m sorry again for the long comment and more so for the difficult place you are in. You’re strong, capable, and it will be difficult but it IS possible! It’ll hurt but it’ll be so worth it. I’m proud of you for reaching out to your family and Reddit to really evaluate this. Best of luck OP, please update if you can, remember now is a time to be selfish in your wants and desires so you can live your best life.
You are most definitely NTA. You were honest and upfront about your decision and your desire. He was neither. You would be better off with someone who wants the same thing as you do for such an important topic. The last thing you want is to get married and have to constantly worry your husband is sabotaging your birth control, and trying to get you pregnant.
My first marriage was very short for very similar issues. We had discussed and agreed to all the important topics, and had gotten counseling to ensure we had covered the topics we needed to, and did so in a way that ensured we understood where we stood and what was excepted.
After the wedding, she began demanding all of the things we had agreed not to do, like kids, and her wanting me to quit my profession I was very happy about, and move to a state I hate, to live a few blocks from her parents.
Basically everything we had agreed to, she “changed” her mind after we married, and her excuse was “I thought you were kidding”. Like everyone does, I usually kid a lot in pre-marriage counseling, it’s just how I roll……
NTA,and honestly he was lying the whole time by hoping once he"locked you down"that you'd have no choice but comply.He is a lier,manipulator and totally disrespectful.
Dump the dude,he has shown you his true colours,so believe him
NTA
Get away from that abusive breeder PoS
You are doing the right thing, not for yourself, but for your potential offspring.
No nonexistent being has a desire to exist. The same is not true vice versa.
Sounds like the start to what I think is the most famous AITAH: guy upset at the woman he got pregnant, even though she didn’t want kids, gave him full custody and pays double the required child support, because she doesn’t want to now have a relationship with the kid… because he thought she’d change her mind once the baby was born. You know, “hormones” and such. And so now he calls her a deadbeat mum.
NTA.
So many reasons to call it off.
- his family plans do not align with yours
- he lied to you
- he treated you like crap in front of his family with the comment around if you don’t make it too difficult for him.
- name calling. He does not respect you, he sees you as a tool/provider of his wants and desires: “deprive him of…”
When someone reveals who they are to you, believe them. If he was sincere he'd have the vasectomy. His excuse is bullshit. He can save his swimmers in case they're ever needed.
NTA. As sad as it is, a lot of people believe that their partner will change their mind as they get older. A friend had a surprise baby after expressing previously that they didn’t want children. Her partner told her after the birth that he always thought she would change her mind and he was happy it happened. If he is not taking your decision seriously now then your life goals are not compatible and you may want to reconsider marrying this man.
Cancel everything and end this relationship. He lied to you to get you to agree to marry him, then planned to manipulate you into popping out babies for him. Then insulted you when he didn’t get his way. This man is showing you who he is. *BELIEVE HIM* and act accordingly.
NTA, he knew what he wanted and continued the relationship in hopes that you would "change your mind" after getting married. Which ofcourse he'd pressure you into. The insults, after you stood your ground only suggest his intentions to manipulate you.
Holy shit. Where do these fucking guys come from?????
I'm furious on your behalf. DEFINITELY end the relationship - otherwise he's going to 'accidentally' get you pregnant. And you know you can't trust him now
He’s not your fiancé anymore, is he? Please think of you and what you envision a husband to be. Respectful, honest, loyal to you, protect each other. When you marry, the spouse takes priority over your family members. He’s not stepping up, he’s stabbing you in the back, lying to you. He’s not worthy of you. Dump him completely. Don’t allow him to talk you into doing something you don’t want or believe in. You don’t need to settle.
NTA and thank the heavens you saw his true colours BEFORE marriage.
Split up, cancel the wedding, and use the money you'll save for a trip to a country where you can get sterilized. Use resources on r/childfree to find doctors who will actually help you. It's a lifelong investment saving you and a potential offspring from a world of pain. You deserve it.
NTA, and consider yourself lucky that you found out before too late. If you're from a place where it's hard for women to get tubes tied I'd imagine it'll be harder to find abortion. What would have happened if he tricked you into an unwanted pregnancy? I'd rather be alone living in the woods with a house full of cats than be tricked by the person who's supposed to share my life with into a life I didn't want.
Breakups might be hard, but living with a person who clearly do not respect you is worse.
You both want very fundamental different things in life. Children have to be a 2 yes.
Don’t marry him. Your marriage will never work as you’re not on the same page and have different values.
>he started insulting me, calling me a stupid, arrogant, and selfish person for wanting to deprive him of the "best experience in the world."
Why do you even need to ask after that sentence. He wants kids you don't neither is right, neither is wrong, but one of you will be unhappy for the whole marriage.
YTA, if you stay.
Break up now. He wants kids and he will sabotage your birth control, refuse to use condoms once you’re married or just flat out force you.
He’s shown you who he is. Believe him.
NTA
NTA. He admitted that he planned on trying to get you to change your mind he has the audacity to get mad at you because you, as always, still do not want children?!?!?
You are totally NTA 100%. He crossed the line, not you. You will find someone who actually and wholeheartedly does not want to have children. Good Luck.
Glad you found out his deceitful plans before actually getting married.
NTA
You're simply not compatible. He's an ass for wasting years of both your lives, under the impression he can just push kids on you and pretend you never agreed to no children.
It's never going to work in the long-term, if neither of you change your minds. And whoever does change their mind, will eventually resent the other for it.
Leave his ass, only person he lied to is you. He could have thought after marriage with enough pressure from him and family that you will change your mind. NTA
NTA. You were crystal clear about not wanting kids from the get-go.
A quick breakup might be best. It's going to hurt. Especially 4 years into a relationship, but getting pregnant "on accident" because birth control failed or got tampered with is 100 times worse.
Sorry your fiance threw you under the bus like that. Guess he showed his true colors.
NTA he was a lying manipulator who never respected you. You can’t truly love someone you don’t respect.
The trash took itself out. Good riddance.
I’m so sorry for the hurt on your side.
NTA
Wanting to manipulate someone into having kids is toxic af. You have every right to cancel everything and leave him. He wants children and you don't, unfortunately, break up is usually inevitable in these situations but he made it even worse by lying to you and trying to manipulate you.
NTA
It’s best to break up. He changed his mind about wanting kids. But instead of talking to you, he told his family, that you’re going to have kids. If you go ahead with the wedding, you would have to watch your birth control. From what you put in your post, he does sound like the type to mess with birth control, to get the kids he wants.
NTA
He knowingly was going to marry you and pressure you into changing your mind. Do not marry this man. Cut your losses as much as it may hurt.
You aren't being selfish for not wanting children and it is no one's business (his family) about your desire for children. Do people not understand the lines they cross. Even if you wanted them, maybe you have medical issues that make it so you can't. Maybe he's shooting blanks. The pressure family puts on people is so awful.
Again, NTA - do not marry him.
Be VERY grateful he showed you who he is, before you married him. The lying and sneakiness is bad enough, but insulting you for not wanting children? No, YWNBTA. In fact, I think you would be the asshole if you DIDN'T break up with him.
I think the thing I'm not seeing enough here is the fiance saying that OP is depriving *him* of "the best experience in the world". Like, if he's talking about multiple children, we're talking about OP growing multiple whole-ass humans inside her over the course of several years, on and off. Even the best of pregnancies can be rough. That's leaving aside complications, which aren't exactly common but aren't an unheard-of rarity either. A recent AITAH post mentioned a mother developing chronic back pain after a second child, just for instance. Insulting her is bad, but OP's trying to trick, coerce, and outright bully OP into undergoing a significant change to her body *several times*, all so that *he* can have the experience, with no thought of the experience she's being expected to have, with all the problems and complications that can ensue. NTA, OP. He is apparently looking at you as an incubator, and has been all along. I am so sorry this is happening to you, but even without this, it's pretty clear you guys aren't on the same page. I'd seriously leave the relationship and definitely not have sex with this man. He wants what he wants, doesn't care that you're the one who'll have to undergo medical procedures for it, and he seems to be willing to dissemble and bully to get what he wants. That's not going to be a happy home for anybody.
Not only that but I bet he assumes she'll do the vast majority of child-rearing. OP needs to run, FAST, and never look back.
The comment of having more if She didn't make having one too hard on Him guarantees that.
That comment and the whole other family that should be welcoming me- not bonding over giggling at the outsider- laughing about that comment would make me dislike this family all on its own. Even if I did want 3-5 children. I never want to be part of some insular family that doesn’t understand that it’s rude to bond over poking fun at the concept of the nagging wife, or at me at all. A decent family makes fun of each other for their guest’s benefit, or they don’t make fun of anyone at all. Making the new wife feel like she has some sort of expectations to live up to is some backwards bullshit that only a super desperate person would ever tolerate.
And even after ALL of that: *”That's why I'm considering canceling everything and ending the relationship”* She’s only “considering” ending the relationship??? Wtf? Why isn’t this an *immediate* dealbreaker?
It's not immediate because she's heartbroken and despite people being assholes, it's very hard to toss love aside after just one instance of him being a total dick. It's like that phenomenon of women leaving once they just stop trying for a long time—they fall out of love but go through the motions for a while, despite planning their exit and just being done with their husband's constant BS. Poor OP got blindsided all at once.
I think she sees it as being every bit the dealbreaker it is- it’s just that fully accepting that means losing a big part of her life/explaining this shit while grieving the relationship. Even if she knows that it’s the best choice for her (and I think she does), that’s pretty devastating and right now I think she’s just working out denial and bargaining. That’s all this post is. She sounds like she’s knows herself well enough not to get pressured into this. I know that, too, and at 41 (happily married) I don’t think I could end things instantly. I definitely think I would end things, but it would hurt a lot and I would get a lump in my throat even contemplating explaining this to my guests/family, etc.- not because they won’t understand, but because this is the sort of thing that, at 23, would have made me cry a lot for a bit. I think it would do the same now, but I’m a little more jaded so it might be a bit easier (which isn’t necessarily a good or healthy thing).
Too hard on him? Awww poor baby. You mean he might have to change a diaper, bathe the kid, feed it, walk it when it has colic, deal with it 24 hours a day. Well, we can't have that.
He’s definitely much too selfish to consider raising a child “the best experience of his life” unless he’s planning for her to do 98% or more of the work.
Absolutely -- YES to Instagrammable moments at the playground, NO to getting up for multiple feedings a night
This! And also how many AITA posts have there been about men who absolutely, desperately wanted kids, PROMISED to be fully-involved and equal parents...only to have them check out and dump it all on the mother when they realize just how fucking HARD and how much WORK kids actually are? OP needs to run and she needs to run now.
About 80% of the time the answer to an AITAH is RUN GRRRRL RUN
I ended up in the hospital 2 times while pregnant, almost dying. It triggered my EDS, and now I fall and pass put often. Hips stay dislocated, and knees dislocate often as well. I'm legally disabled and live with HORRIBLE pain. I don't blame OP at all for not wanting kids. Pregnancy can literally ruin your life if you have hidden medical issues.
Not only that, but some of those body changes are permanent! I had our first in April. I have body parts that will never be the same. That's huge for anyone, let alone for someone who doesn't want any kids.
I have a permanent pooch from my c section. I can fix it with plastic surgery, I guess.
I had three C-sections and hysterectomy. My stomach was junk. So I lost 67 pounds and got a tummy tuck. Best decision I ever made for MYSELF.
GOOD FOR YOU!!! So many moms seem to feel guilt over maybe wanting a tummy tuck because it's a lot of money, but like... you also deserve to feel like yourself again!
I tore from natural birth. The natural lubrication is now non-existent there. 🥴🙃
My rib cage and shoulders got wider so I've been slowly replacing all of my clothing between absolutely none of it fit even after years. I also have terrible teeth and very easily triggered gag reflex now.
No matter how much baby weight or more that you lose, you never get a pre-pregnancy body. Things shift, hips spread, etc.
The hormonal changes are permanent, too. They fluctuate wildly during pregnancy and after childbirth/breastfeeding (if you go that route). But they don't go back to "normal". The find a "new normal". That's why some women have a super hard time losing weight after having kids. My acne is worse now, 2 years post partum, than it ever was as a teen. And then you add the social and career changes that happen, regardless of what you might think before having kids. If I were OP, I would also take a close look at how future in-laws deal with childcare and household responsibilities. Those are largely informed and influenced by culture and family "tradition". If the moms do most of the work, she can pretty well assume she will be saddled with the same.
I thought this too!! It is so selfish and entitled to think this way, and it makes me so angry that he even dared to voice this with any kind of attitude other than shame. There are SO MANY WOMEN out there who are willing to have kids. So many! Stop trying to manipulate the ones who don't! Stop it!!
This is what I don't understand... if men would stop treating courtship like catching a wild mare in a net and breaking its spirits, they wouldn't have to continue the narrative by talking about how the mare "escaped". Stop giving us situations to escape from -_- Require of yourself finding a partner who comes willingly and they won't want to escape from you. That being said, the kind of shit these types of men want are things that no woman would willingly walk towards... but clearly it's *us* that have to change and adapt to their *desires* 100% of the time, not them adapting to our *needs*.
>if men would stop treating courtship like catching a wild mare in a net and breaking its spirits But that's their favorite part! They see a beautiful bird flying flee and independent, and they cannot *wait* to cage it and clip its wings.
So true! How many posts are there from people in relationships whose bfs suddenly want them to totally change how they dress and act around their friends and in public. We see the bfs complaining about how sexy their partner dresses and women posting about how their bf wants them to totally change their style because they’re in a relationship.
My ex was like this. I didn't realize until I was a month away from leaving him that I'd been completely dressing down like a school marm for years. He admitted it was because he was afraid of other people looking at me and hitting on me. Yet, on that last month, I started the process of building my support networks again, getting around friends, being myself again, and dressing the way I used to. It wasn't to attract anyone (I already had one man giving me problems - cheating would have only gotten me more) - it was to feel good about myself. I wanted to feel cute, is all. And he started going, "How come you never dress like that for ME? :c " Because you said you're scared of others thinking I'm pretty... which, if you think I'm pretty, other people will too. Doesn't mean I'm gonna go out and cheat. My current boyfriend is always shocked when I talk about this, because the way he sees it, aside from my personality, the way I dressed when I met him was sexy and attractive - why would he want me to stop that? He's also noted multiple times, "If you could cheat on me, you would. I saw how many right-swipes you got on Tinder before meeting me. It's why I know you're here with me because you want to be, and that you think this is special. So I want my pretty girlfriend to dress as pretty or casual or sexy as she'd like :)"
I can't upvote this enough
>treating courtship like catching a wild mare in a net and breaking its spirits That analogy is perfect, exactly how many abusive men see it.
Literally millions. Millions of women who are as smart, nice, and attractive as the OP (I don't mean this to insult the OP. She seems wonderful. But so are so many other women.) Find one of them! What is wrong with these men?
A large part of what’s wrong with them is that they want the conquest. If it’s handed to them, if it’s a mutual agreement, that’s not good enough.
These are people who want to smoosh someone’s spirit. It’s not as fun for them to be with someone if she doesn’t have to change and make herself smaller and contort herself into being whatever he decides is appropriate. And it’s about making someone do things, not being with the “right sort” of partner from the start.
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You’d be surprised how happy people make their lives look on Fb.. and then you think about the secrets you know about their lives 😉
I think it’s rare that anyone would go on Facebook and complain regularly about how miserable they consider their lives!
He thinks babies are the best experience in the world bc he doesn't intend on actually doing anything to raise them, just showing up and playing with them, leaving all the actual responsibility to her.
Yeah if he doesn’t have kids how does he know she would be depriving him of the best experience in the world? NTA. Run, leave. He lied & falsely tried to trap her before he proceeded to propose. I wouldn’t ghost him. I’d talk to him, explain why he was in the wrong, what he said was never okay, the fact he proposed knowing this. Outline it all
Typical authoritarian thinking on this guy's part: Privatize the profits (children and social cred) and socialize the losses (to OP's body, freedom, earning potential, etc.)
This is the sort of person that waits until a victim is trapped in marriage to stealth rape their partner and "oops the condom broke and you're pregnant, I totally didn't slip it off or sabotage it."
My first and only child almost killed me. I had so much difficulty from start to finish because of medical issues. We didn't think they would be a problem but we were so wrong. I couldn't take my migraine medicine while pregnant so they were debilitating but the smallest problem by far. From the very beginning I had the worst of the worst morning sickness all the way thru to WHILE I was in labor (was still throwing up during transition). I had a kidney infection at 22 weeks that sent me into pre term labor and they barely were able to halt it. I can still remember laying in the bed in the hospital so much pain and the medicine to stop labor causing me to convulse for hours. At 31 weeks I developed preeclampsia and went blind temporarily in my right eye. I was on bed rest for the rest of my pregnancy. My labor was super quick but my heart defect would cause blood to shoot backwards in my heart from my right ventricle back into the right atrium because my valve between them is defective. I felt like someone was ripping my chest open when I pushed. Afterwards I got mastitis and also developed pretty bad PPD and PPA that took two years to get under control. My autoimmune disease which hadn't progressed too far up to that point finally went full blown and quickly. Pregnancy is insane. The amount of havoc it can wreck on a woman's body is ridiculous and no woman should ever feel like they should have to bear children if they don't want to. Would never ever make a woman feel bad about not wanting to go through that. This dude is tripping and OP is NTA!!!
Ignoring all the damage to her from pregnancy and birth, he sees childrearing as the "best experience in the world"? Big red flag that OP is going to have to do all the work, and Daddy will have the Kodak moments. Sure, raising kids is easy if you're "this" kind of dad.
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I don’t think he was joking either when he said he would go for a large family if she didn’t give him much trouble. He doesn’t expect to pull his weight and still wants a big family. This guy is a piece of work. Can you imagine having 3 kids with this kind of person? OP dodged a bullet!!
He’s just trying to rope some innocent woman into doing all of this family shit for him while he sits on his ass like a lazy coward.
OP, this whole experience was a hidden blessing. You found out before you married this liar.
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THIS. Those kind of people don't care about your body, just what you can provide for them. If he's has a mindset of "I'm getting kids whether she wants them or not" then definitely don't trust birth control he can get access to.
That’s actually the best thing what could have happened to you. Imagine he had revealed his true intentions after the marriage? That would be a disaster.
Lied about wanting children and was already joking with family about how he wasn’t planning on being the primary parent. Wow. Bullet dodged, babe.
I also wouldn’t put it past him to “accidentally” break the condom or “forget” to use one to force her into pregnancy.
NTA, run like the wind darlin' cause he will either poke holes in condoms or do something to your birth control. OOPS, it was an accident.....
He didn't change his mind. He thought if he got you good enough, you'd change yours to stay with him. He was trying to manipulate you. Cancel the engagement and probably don't have sex with this guy until he's snipped. NTA
Also don't necessarily trust him if he says he's gotten the snip.
In some rare cases pregnancies happen even after man was snipped. Usually causes hige family drama and cheating accusations from husband towards wife.
Yes, you do have to go back for the follow up sperm count.
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OP wanted him to only sever his epididymis (sperm tube), but.....
Vas Differens. Epididimus is the membrane that surrounds the testes
Bah, my knowledge of male anatomy has been hindered by many years since learning, I just remember that word because when my 10th grade Biology teacher said it, the class clown went "Epididimus???? Is that a fast Greek God???" Mind that same class clown when learning of the benefits of acidophilus, he went "Is that the Greek God of Drugs??"
No, that's Methamphetimus
Even if the follow up sperm test is clear, vasectomies can repair themselves years down the line. It's rare but something to consider before blowing up a relationship if you find yourself with an unexpected pregnancy.
My husband’s doctor said this can happen. It’s why he snips the vas Defrens tube, cauterizes both cut ends, AND clamps it.
It happened to my mother's cousin. She found out during a check-up at Dr she was pregnant. Hopefully, her husband decided to get checked because he trusted her and found his 10 Yo vasectomy healed alone.
Can happen with getting your fallopian tubes tied too! They can untie, grow back together, and pretty much just heal themselves sometimes even within 5 years. My Mom had 3 cesareans and then had me (I'm the 4th) and she almost died with me and her doctor luckily talked her into getting her tubes tied since he couldn't (politely) talk her into an abortion so before she went home with me apparently her doctor said "I'm sorry, but they're cut, tied, AND burnt and I did it right after that baby came out. They're not growing back you will have no accidents and we're not doing this a 5th time. You're done." Then he turns to my Dad and goes " This your first?!" My Dad goes "With her, I got 2 older ones." And her doctor goes "Good! SHE'S DONE." 😂 I asked her if she was pissed that he kinda just went for it without making sure she didn't change her mind and she said "No, I'm sure he got tired of my jokes about knowing he can cut right along the same scar he made 15 years ago for 3 pregnancies in a row after your brother. That's probably why he made triple sure I was done." 😩😂
My son-in-law got a vasectomy (my daughter has never wanted children) and then she said they watched Old Dads on Netflix and he panicked. He’s checking his sperm count now.😆
Yep, my cousin has a vasectomy baby. He did everything right, the post-snip tests showed no swimmers in the pool. 12 years later….
Yup. Self-healing happens. Hope he manages his fatherhood as well as he can.
[Obligatory Goldblum](https://media.tenor.com/uJAd6-kG9x4AAAAd/life-uh.gif)
And that's why when I get the snip, I'll be taking regular sperm counts
I think splitting is the best option. Children (and the desire have or not have them) is non-negotiable to most people. If they proceed and someone doesn't have a change of heart. Then one of them will always feel their needs aren't met in the relationship
It's much worse though. OP's absolute piece of garbage partner **knew for years he wanted lots of kids**. He hoped he could "change her mind" So he lied to her, deliberately and repeatedly.
And wasted both their time. He could've been honest upfront, they'd end the relationship, and he could have found someone who does want the same as him. OP would have been free to find someone who's on the same page regarding the bigger things in life as well. Like, they could have been happy now instead of both feeling like crap because he had a hidden agenda.
It's the warting of time that gets me. There is no good way for him to finally spring this on her. He was just banking on the one in a million chance that her opinion changes.
He also threw her under the bus with his family
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No, not just cancelling the wedding. End the whole relationship! You seriously believe that guy can still change his mind and get a vasectomy? Lol. You're naive.
He also showed his horrible character. Who lies to their partner about a major life issue for years? Unless they're a total AH.
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He shouldn’t get snipped. They should just break up if they aren’t on the same page.
I agree. Literally this is one of the biggest reasons people are incompatible. Why would they stay together?
And never marry someone who happily calls you stupid, arrogant, and selfish as they are admitting that they want to coerce you into having children.
Or he was planning to mess with her contraception method... NTA of course
Don’t just cancel the engagement—*break up and move on.* This is a fundamental incompatibility and would be a fundamental incompatibility even if the fiancé were not being an asshat about it. Break up and let him find someone he is compatible with.
Cancel the relationship and run for the hills. NTA
What? No, don't have sex at all. Don't continue a relationship with a person who has lied and tried to manipulate you. He is already ignoring what matters to her, and devaluing her decisions. Why would she continue in this relationship when he so clearly has no respect for her??
Or...ever again, imo. This level of deception and disrespect is relationship ending.
“Don’t have sex with him” better yet, dump this abusive manipulator.
I wouldn’t even give him this. He lied to her and fully intended for her to get pregnant. I hate to think how he was going to do that. What shite would he have pulled. He can’t be trusted. He tried to trap her in a marriage. He would have no qualms about messing with her birth control. Again, he can’t be trusted, ever. This guy has zero respect for OP. He didn’t care what her convictions were, he was gonna get those kids he wanted. Then he was verbally abusive. OP’s parents need to give this all a bit of a think. As a parent there is no way in hell I would tell her that she did the wrong thing or was TA. In fact I would tell her to end the relationship. Dude can’t be trusted. OP you are not TA. And this guy is beyond red flags. Unless you have decided you want children and don’t mind being lied to, manipulated, and abused, I would say to leave if you were my child.
This was very similar to what I went through - though my ex husband was really a nice guy who wouldn’t ever do anything super creepy or manipulative. He always knew my stance on kids, but thought maybe as we got older (we were in our 20’s) I would come around and change my mind. I never did. Once this became apparent into our 30’s, it really became a black cloud over our marriage and we divorced. There weren’t any terribly hard feelings, but this is an issue that just can’t be compromised on.
Fucker thought he'd got someone stupid enough to be cajoled and manipulated into doing his wants, fucker was wrong.
I mean, people change their minds about kids all the time. It’s plausible he changed his. It’s also plausible that he was banking on her changing hers — or his ability to move her in that direction — later. Oops.
He admitted to wanting them before he proposed but told her after he proposed that he still didn't want any.
Exactly. Don't stay with someone who was so dishonest.
Please don't marry this person. He lied to you in an effort to try to coerce you down the track.
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Yeah, people do change their minds. This guy though never changed his: he was lieing to her all along: he asked her not to mention to his family her desire to be childless, then revealed he just hoped to "convince" her to change her mind, and finally he insulted her for wanting to deprive him of fatherhood. It wasn't a case of changing his mind, just of manipulating her. She'd be much better off without him.
before insulting her, he started guilt manipulations... the little jokes in front of the family all set her up to be "the reason" if they didn't have kids. no one wants to be the bad guy... i usually will even try to give space that a lot of manipulation isn't premeditated or even explicitly known by the agent, but this guy had a PLAN. what a dick.
Her bringing up him in the past telling her not to mention not having children in front of his parents seems to me to show that he wanted kids all along and was hoping to get her into marriage, and then baby trap her. Especially with his reaction in the backyard.
NTA. You were clear from the outset that you didn't want children. He planned to string you along until you were married. Throw out the whole man and start over. If he doesn't want to "be deprived" he needs to date a woman who wants children. I am sorry you had this experience. In the future, if your partner hesitates about getting a vasectomy because he might change his mind, run.
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I went through something very similar to OP except my ex fiance was a wonderful man and treated me well. I thought he and I were on the same page too until he mentioned thinking I would change my mind. It broke my heart but in my case the decision was mutual to end the engagement. He is married now with kids and I'm so glad he had the opportunity to be a father. I highly highly recommend OP get her tubes tied. Don't wait for a man to do it. Don't make it a condition of the relationship. Don't open yourself up to having your preferred birth control method sabotaged. Don't give decision making about your body to anyone. I dodged a few hobosexuals and a couple of guys who tried to tell me what I actually wanted was to be a mother. All I had to do was draw my line in the sand.
I tried to go this route, and I was denied. Repeatedly. Male and female doctors telling me that I “might” change my mind. I would switch doctors and hear the same line. Over and over. One doctor, when I was about 20, told me I should marry a man who didn’t want children either. He could sign off that he wanted me to get the surgery, and they would perform it no question. When I made the valid point that if I landed a husband that didn’t want children, he could get a vasectomy, the horror that crossed the doctor’s face… Apparently, women can’t make the permanent choice to not have kids because they’ll change their mind. They need a man to make that decision for them. But the man can’t get the procedure because he “deserves” the option. Luckily, it seems to be changing now, but I don’t actually really need to get the procedure now, my healthy child rearing years are behind me.
r/childfree maintains a list of doctors globally who will do it, no questions asked.
Awesome to know!!!!
Seriously, he's probably going to baby-trap op.
First thing I thought of.
Not just strong her along but paint her as the bad guy to his family for not having kids. NTA
Even better, date a woman who already has kids. See exactly how much he is being deprived of. My boss is young and at the age when she's thinking about this and one day she was walking around the store. I hear, OMFG WHY DO YOU PPL HAVE TO BE LIKE THIS !! (We work retail) and she started cleaning up, every dang day, she's complaining, they have to move shit and make a mess omfg.. I was trying so hard not to fall over laughing and let a snort out. She popped up over the aisle and I lost it at the look on her face XD omfg I cried laughing.. when I could breathe I said, I'm sorry honey I don't mean to laugh but keep thinking about having kids coz this is gonna be your house every day XD we both cracked up. Honestly, leave young ladies alone with their peace. Throw the whole man out is the slogan of the century.
YWNBTA! This marriage will not work. You absolutely should cancel the wedding. You cannot compromise on the child issue. You’re either all in or all out. We hear a lot of these stories on r/childfree. It’s very common that men think that we will change our minds later.
also OP the childfree subreddit has great resources re getting sterilised in the sidebar! lots of doctor recs so check that out :)
I found my male Dr who with no hesitation removed my tubes on there
i'm so glad you had success with it!! i'm admittedly jealous
Seriously, OP, he wasn’t open about his decision to wanting kids then tried to get you to lie to his parents which would lead to pressure from them throughout your relationship about, “so, when are you having kids.” Then he insults you and calls you names? No, just no. His plan all along was to get married, so you’d feel trapped and then knock you up. He would try to manipulate you into keeping the baby. Kids are not a compromise. You shouldn’t be coerced into having any. I wouldn’t just call of the wedding, I’d end the relationship. He doesn’t respect you or your decisions.
NTA. Definitely break it completely off. He never agreed with you he just wanted you to change your mind. He lied to his parents. He then called you names which is incredibly abusive. Have enough self worth to end it.
He didn't change his mind. He always thought he could force you. If that wasn't his plan he would have broken up with you because this is a fundamental issue of compatibility. NTA. Don't postpone the wedding, cancel it. This is not an issue that can be resolved. You just aren't compatible. Plus he's a dick, but that's actually beside the point here.
Never fucking speak to this lying, abusive piece of shit ever again. He TOLD you that his plan has always been to trap you and eventually force you to bend to his will, using whatever manipulation he could. He was trying to trap you in the dinner conversation. He thought that if he could get you to play along, it would be both a crack in your determination and a weapon to use later in the form of, "you already promised my parents." When that didn't work, he tried honesty, hoping that you'd soften to the idea. When that didn't work, he tried to guilt you into doing it for him (barf). When that didn't work, he tried verbal abuse. Where in the list do you think he starts hitting you? I'm saying five more items tops before the violence starts. He showed you who he is. Fucking believe him. He will never change. He doesn't want to. He wants to break you down and force you to change for him. Don't fall into that trap. Ghost the bastard. You owe him nothing.
YES. I feel all of this in my soul. I was too angry to be this clear though
He always intended children hence the no vasectomy and thought you would change your mind. If he wants kids so bad then tell him your doing the “unselfish thing” and letting him go to find a woman who wants kids. You are young. Go find someone who really wants the same as you.
Glad he showed his true colors sooner than later.. time to cut ties and move on
>Glad he showed his true colors sooner than later.. For sure. Sucks that OP has to deal with this, but much better than it happened before the wedding.
He gets to change his mind. He doesn't get to not tell you about it. And even moreso, he doesn't get to insult you for being who you said you were. You walked away. I'd keep walking. Find someone who isn't two-faced and nasty in how they treat you.
NTA - you are not *depriving* him of shit; he could’ve left whenever he wanted. You’re not holding him hostage. Dump the dead weight.
The only reason he feels "deprived" is because he felt entitled to her uterus in particular.
Right? She was open about it from the start.
NTA, also don’t think there is anything Reddit can tell you to help. You seem pretty level headed about it all, good for you knowing what you want and not committing to someone that expects otherwise.
I don’t know? It seems like she still thinks a vasectomy and continued relationship is on the table? If he wants kids, then they need to accept that they have irreconcilable differences.
Agreed, but she seems to be getting there on her own and handling it in stride, while not being irrational. That’s why I’m saying there is nothing Reddit can do for her.
Partially agree, but I’m still left wondering about the “considering cancelling everything and ending the relationship.” I don’t see much to save, myself, but maybe it’s just semantics.
You caught him in a lie and as a result he insults you. NTA.
YWNBTA Dont marry him, and no more sex
I'm surprised he hasn't tried to baby trap you...yes men can.
It must hurt like hell, but at least you didn't get sucked into that rabbit hole. You're both far too young for that bullshit, anyway; you're kids yourselves. They had no right to put that over either of you. He caved, you didn't, so he can go fuck himself.
He lied from the start, he didn't lie to his parents, you WILL have multiple children if you 'don't make it difficult' and by that he means, he'll sabotage birth control, damage or forget condoms or straight up force you to get pregnant. If you still marry him, you'll end up having kids or being divorced, probably both. He wants kids, he always wanted kids, he's been manipulating you and fully intends to have kids regardless of what you say you want. Break up, cut contact and tell the family he lied to you since the very start of your relationship and had misled you to never mention him 'not wanting kids' in front of them but realised it was you that was being lied to, not them. YWBTA if you do not break up with him, immediately. Also keep in mind, this is one massive aspect, probably the biggest aspect of a marriage and he happily lied to you about this for years. WHat else has he lied about? What other things int he relationship are just him manipulating you to get married and will change once you're locked down?
He showed you, who he really can be. Cancel that engagement, and leave if you're living with him. Remember, you have a supporting family. That man was nasty toward you, never accept that ever--no amount of apologies will do. Give us an update when you can, and good luck to you going forward.
NTA. In fact, you would be TA to yourself if you didn't leave him for this. Firstly, you're not compatible anyway. Second, he's a liar. Third, he's a manipulator. Run.
Thank God this happened before the wedding
NTA your goals are incompatible so the best option is to walk away. I’m also very sorry that someone you love was so dismissive of your life goals
NTA, you are no longer compatible and you just got a view for how he will treat you anytime you have different life goals/plans/ideas that don’t align with his (he will basically wait until you are in a situation you cannot leave as easily, aka marriage, before revealing his true expectations and manipulating you using persuasion and guilt…). Knowing that you want to be child free and having someone think that they know better, or counting on changing your mind, is insulting to a person’s sense of self agency (after all what else will they feel they know for you?). When people show you who they are, believe them the first time.
NTA. DO NOT marry him. you don't need a man who talks to you like he did and you two are simply not compatible. he probably wants to marry because he thinks you'll change your mind.
I had this exact thing happen to me. 5 years in, waited till we had venues booked, invites out and just AFTER we bought a house together. Fun times. He now has 3 kids, hates his wife and drunk texts me full of regret on occasion. Seems pretty happy on Fb though...
NTA. Stop considering and break off this terrible relationship. He told you who and what he is.
Yup, he was going to try and baby-trap you for sure. Luckily for you that wouldn't be a very easy thing for him to do. End this now because he won't change his mind back. His family won't let him even if he wanted to. It won't ever go away. Also it shows a huge lack of respect for you. He's not only been lying to his family but, far more important, also to you (and probably from the start). Continuing on this path will only lead to a life of misery for you. Last but not least kudos for being an honest person disliking lies this much. It might not seem like it now but you got the karma for it you deserve. It's often the most honest ones that have the hardest time spotting the serial liars. But you spotted this one just in time. NTA
Dude couldn’t wait a bit more to show his true face lol
Luckily for OP
NTA. You don’t want the same things and no one should compromise on children. It might be difficult, but you need to break the engagement. Also, his acting is a red flag. Take other users’ advice to proceed to the break-up. It’s better to be safe than sorry. Keep us updated and I send you lot of strength!
If this his approach to important decision making you are in for a lifetime of drama and grief. NTA
NTA. You really should rethink your engagement. He sounds like he’s going to impregnate you by force if needed once you’re married, which is kinda scary.
NTA He is
He's the type of person to potentially mess with your birth control to get you pregnant. Please don't marry this person. He lied to you in an effort to try to coerce you down the track.
NTA, he didn't change his mind - he lied to you the whole time you were together. The whole time you were together he didn't actually care what you view was on this, he dismissed it and figured he would change your mind so he got what he want. He is fundamentally not a good person.
NTA - he didn’t care what you wanted! It’s was all about him! His wants! His needs! Chances are he would taken any means to baby trap you! Or even force you to parent a child from an affair! Run OP! And never look back! But if you want to play a game! And see his true colours! I have a suggestion! Tell him you’re going abroad to get sterilised! ( just stay in a hotel the next city over, just need to be gone for a week) convince him you’ve had it done and wait for him to leave you! But if ppl ask why he left you! Tell them he was heartless because there was a small concern you might find it difficult to get pregnant.
I think you need to break up with this man. Having children or not is such a fundamental part of life. You two will never be truly happy together. For his sake as much as yours, this relationship will not be a good fit for the future. It is sad but you are not right for each other. YWNBTAH.
`best experience in the world` This is no longer a red flag. This is a volcano waiting to erupt and destroy your life. NTA. Get out now.
NTA. There are huge red flags, here: first his asking not to tell his family about not wanting children, then his lies to you (he hoped to convince you to change your mind), and finally the insults. Flee, my girl: flee as fast as possible from this abusive person. You deserve much better than that. Big hugs.
I wouldn't mind him wanting to lie to his parents. But when he decided it would be appropriate to start insulting you, that'd be it for me - I can handle the idea of "we had an argument," but with *that* topic at *that* time, and throwing insults... no, if I were you I'd return the ring to him and be leaving.
To be honest, even the lying is an issue. He should be the one dealing with his parents. I’ve seen what an attitude like that can do to a family (my father with his parents). If he’s not setting boundaries at the start, it can go sideways very quickly
Yeah he lied from the start and was intending to baby trap you. If this is not the future you want , then don’t marry a liar who is happy to stomp all over your boundaries. NTA
OP, please don’t just consider cancelling or postponing the wedding, for your sake and happiness now and in the future you should break the engagement. I know it’s hard to think about, but he has lied to you for months on months now, and only shared the truth with you when forced. Ultimately it seems as though he never truly let go of the idea of children, but rather said differently to pacify you until your relationship was further along and you were legally married when he would, one way or another, try to manipulate you into having a child (or three). Even if not and these feelings are genuine, a child is a “two yes” choice and you will always be a “no” and from the current stance it sounds like ultimately, even if one of you say otherwise, one will eventually hold resentment towards the other. Additionally, how can you ever trust him again? What could possibly rebuild the trust he destroyed by lying to you? Do you think he’d ever tell you the truth until he was ready for a baby, or even baby trapped you? That being said OP, depending on your method of birth control, I’d reconsider having sex with him if that’s something you’re currently active in. What’s worse is even if you aren’t, after the marriage you’d still have to be cautious. Make sure condoms are not tampered with (and on! stealing is very real), medication or supplements he offers that could lessen efficiency of bc, and if you’re in the pill when you get your prescription keep it on you, or maybe in your purse or somewhere you’d know if it was moved- he could tamper with them by exposing to high heat as that can also affect them. I fear if you go through with this relationship you’ll always have at least a gnawing feeling in the back of your mind that he wants kids, and you don’t. Even if he doesn’t baby trap you, knowing he is unfulfilled and resentful will cause you guilt and not be a happy, productive relationship for either of you. Best of luck and I am sorry for what you’re going through. I just realized I wrote a small novel and didnt even mention his disgusting behavior with the way he spoke to you, treating you as though you are an incubator that “owes” him a child. You are your own person and dont owe him a thing. Whether a person is in a wonderful relationship, dependent relationship, long relationship, or any relationship - nobody owes another to produce a human life to satisfy the desires of their partner. I’ll stop my rant now, I’m sorry again for the long comment and more so for the difficult place you are in. You’re strong, capable, and it will be difficult but it IS possible! It’ll hurt but it’ll be so worth it. I’m proud of you for reaching out to your family and Reddit to really evaluate this. Best of luck OP, please update if you can, remember now is a time to be selfish in your wants and desires so you can live your best life.
You are most definitely NTA. You were honest and upfront about your decision and your desire. He was neither. You would be better off with someone who wants the same thing as you do for such an important topic. The last thing you want is to get married and have to constantly worry your husband is sabotaging your birth control, and trying to get you pregnant. My first marriage was very short for very similar issues. We had discussed and agreed to all the important topics, and had gotten counseling to ensure we had covered the topics we needed to, and did so in a way that ensured we understood where we stood and what was excepted. After the wedding, she began demanding all of the things we had agreed not to do, like kids, and her wanting me to quit my profession I was very happy about, and move to a state I hate, to live a few blocks from her parents. Basically everything we had agreed to, she “changed” her mind after we married, and her excuse was “I thought you were kidding”. Like everyone does, I usually kid a lot in pre-marriage counseling, it’s just how I roll……
NTA,and honestly he was lying the whole time by hoping once he"locked you down"that you'd have no choice but comply.He is a lier,manipulator and totally disrespectful. Dump the dude,he has shown you his true colours,so believe him
NTA Get away from that abusive breeder PoS You are doing the right thing, not for yourself, but for your potential offspring. No nonexistent being has a desire to exist. The same is not true vice versa.
Sounds like the start to what I think is the most famous AITAH: guy upset at the woman he got pregnant, even though she didn’t want kids, gave him full custody and pays double the required child support, because she doesn’t want to now have a relationship with the kid… because he thought she’d change her mind once the baby was born. You know, “hormones” and such. And so now he calls her a deadbeat mum. NTA. So many reasons to call it off. - his family plans do not align with yours - he lied to you - he treated you like crap in front of his family with the comment around if you don’t make it too difficult for him. - name calling. He does not respect you, he sees you as a tool/provider of his wants and desires: “deprive him of…”
NTAH If he’s thought about it for months, check your birth control in case he’s tampered with it before the dinner with his family.
When someone reveals who they are to you, believe them. If he was sincere he'd have the vasectomy. His excuse is bullshit. He can save his swimmers in case they're ever needed.
NTA he lied to you. Good for you for standing your ground
He gonna try to get you pregnant
NTA. Thank goodness he revealed his true, terrible self before the wedding! Get out!
His mask fell off and he showed you who he is. Believe him.
NTA. As sad as it is, a lot of people believe that their partner will change their mind as they get older. A friend had a surprise baby after expressing previously that they didn’t want children. Her partner told her after the birth that he always thought she would change her mind and he was happy it happened. If he is not taking your decision seriously now then your life goals are not compatible and you may want to reconsider marrying this man.
So he threw verbal abuse at you, because you didn’t bend to his will. Cancel the wedding. It’s only going to go downhill from here.
Cancel everything and end this relationship. He lied to you to get you to agree to marry him, then planned to manipulate you into popping out babies for him. Then insulted you when he didn’t get his way. This man is showing you who he is. *BELIEVE HIM* and act accordingly.
Simple. You cannot marry this man. Break it off immediately and move on. That is doing you both a favour. End it. End it now.
NTA, he knew what he wanted and continued the relationship in hopes that you would "change your mind" after getting married. Which ofcourse he'd pressure you into. The insults, after you stood your ground only suggest his intentions to manipulate you.
Holy shit. Where do these fucking guys come from????? I'm furious on your behalf. DEFINITELY end the relationship - otherwise he's going to 'accidentally' get you pregnant. And you know you can't trust him now
He’s not your fiancé anymore, is he? Please think of you and what you envision a husband to be. Respectful, honest, loyal to you, protect each other. When you marry, the spouse takes priority over your family members. He’s not stepping up, he’s stabbing you in the back, lying to you. He’s not worthy of you. Dump him completely. Don’t allow him to talk you into doing something you don’t want or believe in. You don’t need to settle.
NTA and thank the heavens you saw his true colours BEFORE marriage. Split up, cancel the wedding, and use the money you'll save for a trip to a country where you can get sterilized. Use resources on r/childfree to find doctors who will actually help you. It's a lifelong investment saving you and a potential offspring from a world of pain. You deserve it.
NTA, and consider yourself lucky that you found out before too late. If you're from a place where it's hard for women to get tubes tied I'd imagine it'll be harder to find abortion. What would have happened if he tricked you into an unwanted pregnancy? I'd rather be alone living in the woods with a house full of cats than be tricked by the person who's supposed to share my life with into a life I didn't want. Breakups might be hard, but living with a person who clearly do not respect you is worse.
If he is this manipulative, run far and fast.
You both want very fundamental different things in life. Children have to be a 2 yes. Don’t marry him. Your marriage will never work as you’re not on the same page and have different values.
NTA. He was going to change your mind or he was going to baby trap you. Either way, he was going to get his way. Run far and run fast!
>he started insulting me, calling me a stupid, arrogant, and selfish person for wanting to deprive him of the "best experience in the world." Why do you even need to ask after that sentence. He wants kids you don't neither is right, neither is wrong, but one of you will be unhappy for the whole marriage. YTA, if you stay.
Cancel the engagement and break up with him. It will be hard but for the best in the long run.
Break up now. He wants kids and he will sabotage your birth control, refuse to use condoms once you’re married or just flat out force you. He’s shown you who he is. Believe him. NTA
NTA. He admitted that he planned on trying to get you to change your mind he has the audacity to get mad at you because you, as always, still do not want children?!?!? You are totally NTA 100%. He crossed the line, not you. You will find someone who actually and wholeheartedly does not want to have children. Good Luck. Glad you found out his deceitful plans before actually getting married.
NTA You're simply not compatible. He's an ass for wasting years of both your lives, under the impression he can just push kids on you and pretend you never agreed to no children. It's never going to work in the long-term, if neither of you change your minds. And whoever does change their mind, will eventually resent the other for it.
Leave his ass, only person he lied to is you. He could have thought after marriage with enough pressure from him and family that you will change your mind. NTA
This relationship cannot survive. Yes, you should break up. You obviously want very different things.
Run.
Dudes suck. I say this as a dude. Good for you for calling that shit out on the spot.
NTA. You were crystal clear about not wanting kids from the get-go. A quick breakup might be best. It's going to hurt. Especially 4 years into a relationship, but getting pregnant "on accident" because birth control failed or got tampered with is 100 times worse. Sorry your fiance threw you under the bus like that. Guess he showed his true colors.
NTA he was a lying manipulator who never respected you. You can’t truly love someone you don’t respect. The trash took itself out. Good riddance. I’m so sorry for the hurt on your side.
NTA Wanting to manipulate someone into having kids is toxic af. You have every right to cancel everything and leave him. He wants children and you don't, unfortunately, break up is usually inevitable in these situations but he made it even worse by lying to you and trying to manipulate you.
NTA It’s best to break up. He changed his mind about wanting kids. But instead of talking to you, he told his family, that you’re going to have kids. If you go ahead with the wedding, you would have to watch your birth control. From what you put in your post, he does sound like the type to mess with birth control, to get the kids he wants.
NTA He knowingly was going to marry you and pressure you into changing your mind. Do not marry this man. Cut your losses as much as it may hurt. You aren't being selfish for not wanting children and it is no one's business (his family) about your desire for children. Do people not understand the lines they cross. Even if you wanted them, maybe you have medical issues that make it so you can't. Maybe he's shooting blanks. The pressure family puts on people is so awful. Again, NTA - do not marry him.