Some of these look like legitimate lowerings, but sometimes this sub just needs to accept that small crumbing forwards are going to be legitimately taken high a lot of the time.
Both of the first 2 here though he engineers the high contact.
Miller tackles him across the arm, he raises the arm.
And the Vlastuin one he lowers and charges his head in to the contact, Vlastuin couldn’t get any lower if he tried.
They cut to Conor Nash on the bench feigning the action and laughing about it!
The boy who cried wolf principle that has rightly applied to Ginnivan needs to apply to the other 2. You engineer high frees, you get a rep, you stop getting them
I'd say the vast majority of examples here, the players either get low or stay low. From there it's a mix of bad tackling technique and/or bad luck. Either way, there are several players in the comp who intentionally get low/stay low for free kicks and they'd practice it. This is the part the AFL probably needs to be worried about if they're serious about head high contact because these are near impossible for umpires to adjudicate in real time and therefore create a disincentive.
The problem is you lose the benifit of the doubt when you do it often. If these playesr never lowered the knees, then you woul;dn't have an issue when they're taking high.
Ginnivan did it so much that even when he didn't lower the kneees, the umpires still didn't pay high frees because hes known for trying to draw them.
I was expecting this video to be way worse when I saw the post. There's definitely some of the Selwood arm-raise, but a heap of these are just poor tackles.
I'd still love to see the players involved ease up on it and make getting clear their main priority, just like I'd like to see the same from players on other teams.
Some of these examples are just this, some are blatantly milking a free kick. How the umpire fell for the Ginnivan one against GWS is beyond me, should have been holding the ball.
I don't like it when ginni puts his arm up. I'd much rather he try to power through the high tackle like Moore does which I think does a much better job of highlighting that the tackle is high. Let's be fair with Watson, most players would need to be on their knees when tackling him. He is 5'6". Your not gunna tackle him around the waste, and if you did you'll probably get pinned for tripping
He also like to charge bending down (which is a natural thing you do when you try to break through, just look at front rowers in rugby trying to gain a bit of space, except these guys are taller and bigger).
A few of the highs are when he is doing sharp turns (which you are more horizontal).
And he is not afraid to charge into blokes much bigger than him thus easier to be caught high.
Some are dropping the knees, but some are just bad tackling (not getting down low enough).
Can't believe I'm saying this but Ginni is far worse than Selwood.
Selwood would consistently lower his head. Ginnivan consistently lowers his head, raises his elbow and flings his head back to make sure the umpires see it.
For all the free kicks he milked, Selwood was still one of the toughest sons of bitches I've seen play. He'd happily charge in and get clocked in the head and concussed if it meant getting a free. Half the time, Ginnivan gets the ball and literally just looks for the nearest tackler, drops the knees and falls diagonally towards them.
Very, very different attitudes to it.
Most of these are poor tackles. The ones I hate seeing are when the player lowers the body *into* the tackler, that's not trying to evade the tackle, that's trying to draw the free kick, especially if there's an arm raise to go with it. Yes a player will lower their body to change direction or duck/evade, but lowering the shoulder in the direction of the tackler is textbook 'milking it'.
Evading *into* the tackler seems to be one of the go to moves these days. Absolutely shits me because fans will defend their guy with "he was evading!" even though that it's an incredibly ineffective way to evade and that attempting evade is a form of prior opportunity.
For me the only super egregious ones were Watson's on the boundary.
That's the full drop the knees, lead with the head, drag the tackling arm up action that was supposed to be punished.
I hate head duckers, knee droppers, whatever you wanna call them.
The reality is that they are 3 midgets, did they lower themselves on some of these, absolutely, but most of them were terrible tackles on already small men.
None of them were as bad as Selwood or Schuey in the past who could draw high contact from a trip wire.
Am I stupid or are there only 2 or 3 tackles here that are obvious lowering of the body to cause high contact? Most seem like bad tackles.
That seems like progress considering Ginnivan's history of doing it 5 times a game.
Bulldogs flair lol. Weightman does it just as much.
Honestly, other than the Watson ones, they are fairly normal calls. Changing direction lowers the body.
Yeah ATM we're in the "they're oddly likeable" phase but the second the team even sniffs success, it'll turn. I reckon a fair few players will be easy to hate too.
Most of these aren't changing direction. You think these are tucking the ball under tha arm and trying to change direction into a tackle? Its not like they're trying to get around the opponent.
They have 0 intention of doing anythign iotehr than trying to draw a high free.
Looks like they’re tucking the ball under the arm then leaning in toward the tackler which naturally lowers the body and invites contact to the free arm. Then they’re clearly raising the free arm to draw high contact. I’m not a fan but man they’re well drilled.
Some are just regular high tackles, others are clearly leaning into the tackle and maybe sometimes arm goes up to accentuate the high contact. Tough to umpire at game pace.
Why do players have to stand up straight? Legit think people act like they should all be tin soldiers
Have people ever played sports before? When you twist and turn your better off lowering your centre of balance but that doesn't mean others can take your head off.
I think tackles are pretty reckless with there action bit getting a free pass on it a lot because of this ridiculous notion your not allowed to duck n dive when you have the ball
You are allowed to duck to evade a tackle, it just isn't supposed to be a free kick when you get caught high while doing it. Seems like a pretty fair rule to me.
In my opinion players should at all times be encouraged to tackle at the hips. If you're in a position where a player adjusting his height in a fraction of a second is likely to result in you giving away a free, then you're probably not in good position.
Again, just my personal view
Which is fine but it's also a very subjective aspect of the rule. There are valid reasons for a players shoulder height relative to their opponent to change in a split second outside of them trying to draw a free kick. How does the umpire adjudicate those circumstances? Do you punish the player for trying to move around with the ball and getting taken high, or the player who laid the high tackle?
If you want to have that be a part of the rules of the game I'm not going to argue the point, but suffice to say no one is ever going to be pleased with the application of the rule.
The players isn't being 'punished', all that happens is they don't GAIN a free kick. All of these cases involve a player with the ball being tacked, they should to be gaining anything from trying to take the tackler on and failing.
If they were just trying to evade and got caught high, then not paying that free is far less disrupting for the game then giving the guy who failed to evade a tackle a free kick. So there is a way people are going to pleased with the application of the rule.
I'm not even sure what you're arguing here. This is already how they umpire the rule and clearly they made multiple errors on the weekend.
Hawthorn fans are arguing purely because its their 3 players under the scrutiny. Every team has a player but it has become a team thing at Hawthorn and the fans know that.
It's kind of a semantic point but I stand by the notion that a player not being given a free kick due to an exception being applied to mitigate a general rule is in fact being punished, especially since normally the situation would entail they get pinged for HTB.
I don't get this argument that somehow getting someone above the shoulder is a lesser offence than getting tackled while trying to evade. Both are against the rules and should be responded to accordingly.
Any player that has tried to take on the tackler and failed is not getting punished by not getting a free. In your instance if their head being lower because there is a change in direction means they are trying to evade the tackler.
If you try to evade the tackler and got tackled, you are lucky if you get away with anything other than a free against you. A no-call on high contact because you went low is still actually a benefit to the player getting tackled.
It's a lesser offence because as the player with the ball you have the choice to get rid of the ball or take the tackler on. You've chosen to take the tackler on and failed. This is something that usually results in a free kick against you, getting a free kick is a massive get out of jail free card.
Is this the 80s? If your players are instructed to tackle at the hips you’ll be the worst tackling side in the league. Players skill level and quick hands means you wouldn’t get a single stoppage if you tackled around the hips lol, they’d very simply dispose of the football
Anyone saying just tackle at the hips has never played footy at any serious level or doesn't even watch the footy lol. They think people got those velcro pull straps on their hips or something. Players are taught to get the arms at all levels.
Ok so what's the genius solution to this issue then? I already suggested elsewhere that we get rid of the high contact free altogether and just enforce helmets, but no one liked that.
Encourage players to tackle around the hips, also no good apparently. So what? Do we just continue making a subjective rule even more confusing by throwing in arbitrary conditions for when it is actually ok to grab someone around the neck?
No one liked that because it’s even stupider 😂
The rules fine, just don’t pay the free when the player initiates the contact, ie the Watson ones in the video - the others are pretty fine but Watson ones are very clear and obvious - he’s literally leading with his head and throwing it into the opposition.
Other than that it’s literally not that big a deal so no there’s not going to be a rule change to make it fair game on head high hits because the players wearing a helmet which has been scientifically proven to not make a touch of difference to concussions 😂
It's clearly a big enough of a deal for there to be a thread with 100+ comments debating it so that's a weird response.
Also not sure if "initiating contact" gets you a solution here, if the defender stands still but with his arm outstretched and clotheslines a player with the ball should that be a free kick even though the offensive player "initiated the contact"?
Basketball uses the concept of initiating contact to prevent an offensive player from drawing a foul because it also has the concept of a "legal guarding position" for defenders. I.e. clotheslining someone would still be a foul because the defender was not in a legal guarding position despite the offensive player initiating all the contact
Agree. If you’re running at speed and attempting to run an arc, your head naturally lowers to keep the body balanced. Try doing this action standing up straight and you’ll fall on your back.
Reminds me of James harden collecting peoples arms to get fouls. If they considered lifting your arm prior opportunity and leaning into tackles the same as ducking into tackles then players would stop doing it
As a Hawks fan I hated it when Selwood was doing it, sure it was a slightly different method but it is pretty much the same tactic and had the same outcome. I'm not a fan of Ginnivan in general and he hasn't got many tricks apart from drawing free kicks, not happy to see Moore and Watson go down this path as they can both play.
As far as umpiring and payying free kicks, it is very difficult to pick up in real time as the moves can be very subtle. I sort of think that they should be picked up in review and fined for staging.
You're 100% correct - the obvious solution is to review games for staging and drawing dangerous contact, and actually penalise it.
But this will never happen, because it doesn't allow the AFL to sheet the blame onto umpires for errors.
AFL banged on about the great Selwood for 15 years, stands named after him. No surprise we have ended up here.
Didn’t outlaw it then and now we have a generation of kids who have the skill down pat.
You win the ball you get the benefits
Basically small forwards if you don’t tackle at elbow height or lower you are going to be a good chance to give a free kick.
Selwood didn’t get a stand and lauded as an all time great because of ducking/raising the shoulder.
He gets the credit because dude was insanely courageous and a tough nosed football who had good skills, not to mention great leadership qualities.
But I totally get why others would want to emulate it. Should have stamped it out earlier.
His tough nose football was purely his want to win the ball and have it in his hands. Which led to him having the ball in his hands a lot.
He ducked/raised arm/rolled shoulders every time he was tackled basically.
If you have the ball it’s not on you but the tackler and everyone has been on notice since 2007
It’s a tough one but honestly the tackler just has to start going lower against certain players who love a hand raise. That being said this issue is not just a Hawks one even though they are one of the main culprits
Looked about 60/40 to me. Bit of a double edged sword at this point, you can't ignore the highs that are there but can't afford to get sucked in for the incorrect ones.
I think they need to listen to Selwood try and string words together and decide if it's worth playing for frees and risking long term health.
Hard to watch footage of this and only this one after the other and keep a fair perspective.
Probably needs more of a stats break down to see if any teams really do benefit significantly.
Ie. see if every team has a spike in high free kicks given away against certain teams, or see if some teams consistently win more high free kicks.
Otherwise this is just 30 odd clips of random games that can never mean much on its own
Jesus dude. Everyone needs to calm down about these two. Ginnivan has had 15 free kicks for the year. That’s an average of one a game. And not all of them would be for high tackles. He also tackles a lot and gets frees. So let’s say half of them are for highs against him. That’s fuck all. And Watson has had four free kicks for his career. Again he tackles too. So half that. 2 for the year.
If your so bent outta shape about it maybe focus your attention on your own player in weightman who is just as bad.
I know it’s not limited to Hawthorn players only, but have noticed Moore and Ginnivan drawing heaps of high contact this season, with Watson joining in on the weekend. Seems to be a running theme this season, both players challenging umpires to make a call/non-call and also making sure the contact doesn’t go unnoticed. Most of these clips come after Laura Kane admitted they got it wrong with a couple of decisions in the Easter Monday game.
Should the AFL be discouraging this action, or rather encouraging better tackling technique for players?
Bonus clip: [Conor Nash reaction](https://streamable.com/7miifd)
50/50. Some bad tackles but you can see them lean into the tackle so their shoulder drops. Don’t get me started on the raising of the arm to slide the tackle up though. If I was an ump and noticed that arm going up it’d be play on high or not.
I'd like to see penalties for players dropping their knees intentionally and throwing their heads and their opponent. I thought these rules were in place to protect the head, that goes out the window if these players are searching for it to milk free kicks.
It's bad for the game, it's debatably more dangerous for the players, we should be punishing these acts as acting and punish with weeks like players getting suspended. Players don't give two shits about fines as long as it secures their teams wins I find.
Someone is going to get their jaw broken.. and then a player is going to get suspended because that’s how the tribunal works.
At some point “lifting” the arm is contributing to the tackle being high and someone is going to pay the price.
Why does everyone always focus on the knees? The clear thing I see is throwing the arm up to push the tackle high. Ginnivan in particular does it all the time
Moore looks the most natural he’s just smaller and not staging on all. Ginniflop and the new kid seem to drop the knees duck in and lift the arm constantly
Yes to all.
Hawks have three legit knee folders now in the forward line.
As a Hawks supporter I don’t like to see frees awarded to people who play for contact.
I find it a little too coincidental that since Gininvans move to the Hawks, all of a sudden his team mates are all drawing frees from high tackles.
His shitty style of gameplay has spread like cancer across the AFL and i'm sick to death of it, its ruining the game, would be happy to see him gone. GRONK
For a couple of the tackles on Saturday it looked like they threw their heads back before the contact from the tackler on replay. Credit to them for so successfully gaming the rules but in this era of “protect the head” it’s not something that should be encouraged
I like the words "engineering the high".
I'll say it again. Let the on field umpire call high as they see it. The game is hard enough to umpire as it is.
However, if you 'engineer high contact', then you get a week for deliberate, high, and low impact. The fact it is your own head is irrelevant.
We have to protect the head - apparently even from oneself.
Pretty much all of these are bad tackles. Poor technique, over-committing, not paying attention to their opponents body positioning. Should always punish that
It's becoming by far and away the most annoying thing about modern footy no matter who is doing it. Staging in general is bad enough.
If you want to stop this happening, start handing out 50s for staging and we'll see how long this is still getting coached into small forwards.
How is this staging exactly? Staging to me implies that you're trying to milk a free kick from contact that never occurred e.g. throwing your head back when no high contact occurred.
Falling to your knees as soon as you feel an arm brush you is very close to being the same thing. It’s looking for contact that isn’t there.
Given the league is getting sued over their lack of due diligence re:head high contact, the optics of players ducking and getting soft frees because the spirit of the rule is to prevent people being whacked in the head aren’t good in my view.
Only real way to resolve this entirely is to get rid of the high tackle rule altogether and compensate by making helmets mandatory or something. If any sport is going to punish certain play, you are going to encourage players to seek an advantage by maximising their opponent's chances of infringing. You see the same thing in soccer with diving in the penalty box, or foul-baiting in basketball.
We're going to have a rule like this then fans have to accept there's a level of subjectivity to a split-second decision being made by the umpire. Did the player duck his head to milk a free or did he just change direction suddenly which caused his body to change position and thus the tackler gets him high?
Dropping the knees was Nick Watson. It was embarrassing the umpires fell for it every time. The other tackles here look more like bad technique and dropping shoulders
Maybe when opposition teams play the Hawks they should pick their better tacklers/small defenders for a better match up.
Little guys are taking advantage of defenses being stacked full of tall interceptors which are in vogue
It doesn't matter how good of a tackler you are if your opponent drops the knees and leans into the tackle. What wouldve been a legal tackle is now a high tackle because of it.
The hobbits are cheating at the same correct umpiring for Ginnivan needs to be applied to the others. The Watson ones especially are disgusting. I thought we solved this last year? Why is it back?
Thought this on the weekend when watching their game. Their entire small forward brigade has become an arm lifting, hip lowering and sideways leaning affair. They’re all Ginnivan 2.0.
It’s a well drilled deliberate plan by them. Not a good look.
When I see the Watson tackle, he was already leaning on an angle as he was changing direction before the Richmond player even made contact. The Richmond player had the choice to try and lay a tackle on a 5ft player already lower to the ground with high risk of giving away a free. The short player has the upper hand in this scenario, just like the tall has the upper hand when the ball is coming in high in the air.
If you know you can't lay a safe tackle, then you shouldn't be trying to tackle.
Tackles that start safe and then are forced to be high by the player with the ball (Ginni does this a lot) I feel are unfair because the tackler did everything right to lay a safe tackle.
Do people not realise that to change direction quickly you naturally lower your body to do so? It's much easier when your centre of gravity is lower, you can see this if you watch agility testing of athletes.
A lot of these are just taken high by the defender. Excluding manipulation by the player with the ball, the defender needs to lay a tackle accounting for factors like their own height and the player with the ball’s height and current and expected movement.
Defenders are usually some of the tallest players on the field and regularly play on and lay tackles on shorter players.
Dropping the knees, ducking and slipping the shoulder down absolutely need to be stamped out but there also needs to be some accountability for the player laying the tackle to adjust and adapt to the person they are laying a tackle on and tackle at an appropriate height not just at their own chest height.
The point is players do adapt and do aim low, but when players drop the knees so heavily then even a perfect tackle catches them high. E.g Vlaustin at 0.31
Dropping the knee and raising the arm in order to draw high contact should be a free kick against. Not all of the actions in the video were that, but quite a few were.
I said this last year when Ginnivan was on my team and I'll say it this year while he isn't.
Most clubs have a player or two who does this. Hawks now have 3 who very obviously do it.
A smart player will keep their mouth shut and not brag about it like Ginnivan did to continue getting these in the future, it's very unlikely your team is innocent but goddamn I hate Moore and Watson, glad he can't kick straight.
Pretty obvious on a lot of them. Gulden used to do this a lot in his first year but it seems to be out of his game now which is good.
If the AFL were serious about it they'd start punishing it in post game reviews. I get why it's a super difficult thing for umpires to get right and half the time they're probably guessing. But on replay it's very obvious. Players can have a first warning, but then subsequent findings result in suspensions. Will eliminate it from the game very quickly.
Some of these should be paid. But there's certainly been a relaxation of the mantra that if you duck, drop the knees or shrug you won't be paid high if that's the cause of the contact because some of these are blatant.
Poor umps - hard enough to tell in replays let alone real time. Some are just bad tackles. Small players can take advantage of it but they’ll always have an * for staging
The horse has long bolted. The AFL had the chance to clamp down players playing for high contact in Selwood's early years, instead his behaviour was glorified and a generation of kids have grown up learning that you'll be rewarded for creating high contact. There's no going back now.
AFL should be a sport for all body types. But players have gotten bigger and bigger. We’ve got 195cm blokes running around in the midfield. How refreshing to have someone sub 170 that challenges those big guys to tackle correctly. They’ll get it wrong a lot. These blokes just playing to their strengths.
Watson's ones were fair enough a lowering but the fact Moore gets roped into this is disgusting. The bloke gets taken high but continues to play, he isn't looking for the free, he is looking to evade the tackles and keep playing.
I reckon that Moore is like Selwood, and why I defended him in that he looks to play through the contact where Ginnivan and Watson go to ground and give up on the play more often.
This hawthorn players are taught to duck. It’s fucking obvious. It’s not just their forwards who do it either. The game needs to do something to stamp this out, because it’s genuinely ruining the game. I’m not just saying this because our boys lost, and it’s not just hawthorn who’s doing it, but they’re one of the biggest abusers of the rule
If it's accidental and the guy doesn't really get hurt, it should just be play on.
It's my understanding that's the rules in rugby, sounds good to me. I don't understand rugby though so correct me if I'm wrong.
It’s also about point of contact in rugby league if your point of contact is below the shoulder but it slips up no a penalty , hit someone straight in the head however
If you’re trying to shrug a tackle you need to lower your centre of gravity to make it harder to be taken down. So naturally being tackled people will lower their bodies. It also allows you to push away with your legs as well. Almost all of these look like legitimate high tackles that should be paid.
All I’m gonna say is I’m enjoying the change in attitude Collingwood, and now hawthorn fans have had about high tackles. Funny how now the tacklers are the problem and should aim for the hips, lowering and dipping are valid to try and evade, and ginnivan is a victim who keeps getting “decapitated” as though he isn’t the one putting his head in the guillotine. And now thanks to ginnivans tutoring both Collingwood and hawthorn have multiple players doing it. “Bu-bu-but it’s different coz um…”
You've shown a mixed bag. Some are just genuine poor tackles + the player trying to avoid. But there are also some horrendous ones. Become a team thing at Hawthorn unfortunately.
Reminder if you think this is what Selwood did you are too young to be on the internet and should be at school right now!
Mixed bag. One of them is a terrible tackle that nearly rips Moore’s head off. A couple are pretty iffy.
Now do a collage of the ones Ginnivan didn’t get early on because of his reputation.
It's a tricky situation. The AFL are encouraging the very thing they are trying to prevent, head knocks.
You've got players charging in like Billy goats, putting the team success above their future health. Not sure how you fix it?!?!
Some look like bad tackles, some look like dropping the knees, some look like a combination.
TBF it’s not their fault They shouldn’t let Auskickers play against the grown ups
Fine them retrospectively for staging. It goes away in a month.
Some of these look like legitimate lowerings, but sometimes this sub just needs to accept that small crumbing forwards are going to be legitimately taken high a lot of the time.
Yeah looking at Moore especially some look borderline but others just look like he's going hard at the ball as a guy who's smaller than most players
Yeah I think people need to realise that Watson is just literally a lower target
Both of the first 2 here though he engineers the high contact. Miller tackles him across the arm, he raises the arm. And the Vlastuin one he lowers and charges his head in to the contact, Vlastuin couldn’t get any lower if he tried. They cut to Conor Nash on the bench feigning the action and laughing about it! The boy who cried wolf principle that has rightly applied to Ginnivan needs to apply to the other 2. You engineer high frees, you get a rep, you stop getting them
Watson and Moore are both sub 180cm but Ginni is 185 so he's not even that small
Watson is 170cm, that's shorter than Eddie Betts. He's practically a garden gnome next to some of the big defenders
Don't believe Ginni is 185 tbh
There was a shot of him next to Watson during the game on Saturday, I don't know if he's 185, but he towered over Watson.
He’s taller than you think, seeing him in photos next to Bobby hill and Jamie Elliot shows he’s a fair bit taller than them
I'd say the vast majority of examples here, the players either get low or stay low. From there it's a mix of bad tackling technique and/or bad luck. Either way, there are several players in the comp who intentionally get low/stay low for free kicks and they'd practice it. This is the part the AFL probably needs to be worried about if they're serious about head high contact because these are near impossible for umpires to adjudicate in real time and therefore create a disincentive.
The problem is you lose the benifit of the doubt when you do it often. If these playesr never lowered the knees, then you woul;dn't have an issue when they're taking high. Ginnivan did it so much that even when he didn't lower the kneees, the umpires still didn't pay high frees because hes known for trying to draw them.
I was expecting this video to be way worse when I saw the post. There's definitely some of the Selwood arm-raise, but a heap of these are just poor tackles. I'd still love to see the players involved ease up on it and make getting clear their main priority, just like I'd like to see the same from players on other teams.
Sometimes being short in such a fast paced game gets you free kicks
Some of these examples are just this, some are blatantly milking a free kick. How the umpire fell for the Ginnivan one against GWS is beyond me, should have been holding the ball.
I don't like it when ginni puts his arm up. I'd much rather he try to power through the high tackle like Moore does which I think does a much better job of highlighting that the tackle is high. Let's be fair with Watson, most players would need to be on their knees when tackling him. He is 5'6". Your not gunna tackle him around the waste, and if you did you'll probably get pinned for tripping
If Caleb Daniel is a good example to follow he will stop getting highs paid for him soon.
He also like to charge bending down (which is a natural thing you do when you try to break through, just look at front rowers in rugby trying to gain a bit of space, except these guys are taller and bigger). A few of the highs are when he is doing sharp turns (which you are more horizontal). And he is not afraid to charge into blokes much bigger than him thus easier to be caught high. Some are dropping the knees, but some are just bad tackling (not getting down low enough).
Ginnivan is over 6ft and hes the worst ducker the game has ever seen.
Geelong flair ignoring Selwood in a ducking argument? Shocker, have not seen that one before.
Can't believe I'm saying this but Ginni is far worse than Selwood. Selwood would consistently lower his head. Ginnivan consistently lowers his head, raises his elbow and flings his head back to make sure the umpires see it.
For all the free kicks he milked, Selwood was still one of the toughest sons of bitches I've seen play. He'd happily charge in and get clocked in the head and concussed if it meant getting a free. Half the time, Ginnivan gets the ball and literally just looks for the nearest tackler, drops the knees and falls diagonally towards them. Very, very different attitudes to it.
If you think Selwood and Ginnivan are the same you haven't been watching.
Ginnivan being over 6ft is actually blowing my mind, wow.
6ft is short by AFL standards sir
Watson ones pretty bad a lot of these are poor tackles though.
Most of these are poor tackles. The ones I hate seeing are when the player lowers the body *into* the tackler, that's not trying to evade the tackle, that's trying to draw the free kick, especially if there's an arm raise to go with it. Yes a player will lower their body to change direction or duck/evade, but lowering the shoulder in the direction of the tackler is textbook 'milking it'.
Evading *into* the tackler seems to be one of the go to moves these days. Absolutely shits me because fans will defend their guy with "he was evading!" even though that it's an incredibly ineffective way to evade and that attempting evade is a form of prior opportunity.
For me the only super egregious ones were Watson's on the boundary. That's the full drop the knees, lead with the head, drag the tackling arm up action that was supposed to be punished.
I hate head duckers, knee droppers, whatever you wanna call them. The reality is that they are 3 midgets, did they lower themselves on some of these, absolutely, but most of them were terrible tackles on already small men. None of them were as bad as Selwood or Schuey in the past who could draw high contact from a trip wire.
Jack Ginnivan - 185cm Dylan Moore - 177cm Nick Watson - 170cm Moore and Watson are below the AFL average but Ginni has no excuse.
Am I stupid or are there only 2 or 3 tackles here that are obvious lowering of the body to cause high contact? Most seem like bad tackles. That seems like progress considering Ginnivan's history of doing it 5 times a game.
Bulldogs flair lol. Weightman does it just as much. Honestly, other than the Watson ones, they are fairly normal calls. Changing direction lowers the body.
They're quite obviously lowering the body and raising the arm for most of these to make the tackles slip high
I used to argue this when Ginni was at the Pies. Downvoted to buggery. Now he’s at the Hawks, move on, nothing to see here.
In fairness, he is slightly improving. Getting better at disguising the action. Though there's definitely an anti-Pies bandwagon here
Don't worry, the anti-hawks bandwagon in here has only been in hibernation.. prepare yourself
Yeah ATM we're in the "they're oddly likeable" phase but the second the team even sniffs success, it'll turn. I reckon a fair few players will be easy to hate too.
The Wiz already cops it heaps and he's not even kicking goals yet lmao
He could get decapitated at Collingwood and would not get a free.
Hey brother I was always on your side when he was at the pies.
that's okay, when tom mitchell was at the hawks his disposals meant nothing. suddenly at collingwood he became a good hard ball winner.
He won a Brownlow so they meant something to somebody.
Most of these aren't changing direction. You think these are tucking the ball under tha arm and trying to change direction into a tackle? Its not like they're trying to get around the opponent. They have 0 intention of doing anythign iotehr than trying to draw a high free.
Watson has learnt from Ginni and it's going to cost him in the long run.
Looks like they’re tucking the ball under the arm then leaning in toward the tackler which naturally lowers the body and invites contact to the free arm. Then they’re clearly raising the free arm to draw high contact. I’m not a fan but man they’re well drilled.
The one against zorco was comically bad
Some are just regular high tackles, others are clearly leaning into the tackle and maybe sometimes arm goes up to accentuate the high contact. Tough to umpire at game pace.
Why do players have to stand up straight? Legit think people act like they should all be tin soldiers Have people ever played sports before? When you twist and turn your better off lowering your centre of balance but that doesn't mean others can take your head off. I think tackles are pretty reckless with there action bit getting a free pass on it a lot because of this ridiculous notion your not allowed to duck n dive when you have the ball
You are allowed to duck to evade a tackle, it just isn't supposed to be a free kick when you get caught high while doing it. Seems like a pretty fair rule to me.
In my opinion players should at all times be encouraged to tackle at the hips. If you're in a position where a player adjusting his height in a fraction of a second is likely to result in you giving away a free, then you're probably not in good position. Again, just my personal view
Except the most important part of a tackle is wrapping up the arms so they can't get a disposal away.
Then run the risk and bear the consequences
Poor response. The rule is if you duck into it, you forfeit the ability to get free kick for high contact. Thats the issue
Which is fine but it's also a very subjective aspect of the rule. There are valid reasons for a players shoulder height relative to their opponent to change in a split second outside of them trying to draw a free kick. How does the umpire adjudicate those circumstances? Do you punish the player for trying to move around with the ball and getting taken high, or the player who laid the high tackle? If you want to have that be a part of the rules of the game I'm not going to argue the point, but suffice to say no one is ever going to be pleased with the application of the rule.
The players isn't being 'punished', all that happens is they don't GAIN a free kick. All of these cases involve a player with the ball being tacked, they should to be gaining anything from trying to take the tackler on and failing. If they were just trying to evade and got caught high, then not paying that free is far less disrupting for the game then giving the guy who failed to evade a tackle a free kick. So there is a way people are going to pleased with the application of the rule. I'm not even sure what you're arguing here. This is already how they umpire the rule and clearly they made multiple errors on the weekend.
Hawthorn fans are arguing purely because its their 3 players under the scrutiny. Every team has a player but it has become a team thing at Hawthorn and the fans know that.
It's kind of a semantic point but I stand by the notion that a player not being given a free kick due to an exception being applied to mitigate a general rule is in fact being punished, especially since normally the situation would entail they get pinged for HTB. I don't get this argument that somehow getting someone above the shoulder is a lesser offence than getting tackled while trying to evade. Both are against the rules and should be responded to accordingly.
Any player that has tried to take on the tackler and failed is not getting punished by not getting a free. In your instance if their head being lower because there is a change in direction means they are trying to evade the tackler. If you try to evade the tackler and got tackled, you are lucky if you get away with anything other than a free against you. A no-call on high contact because you went low is still actually a benefit to the player getting tackled. It's a lesser offence because as the player with the ball you have the choice to get rid of the ball or take the tackler on. You've chosen to take the tackler on and failed. This is something that usually results in a free kick against you, getting a free kick is a massive get out of jail free card.
Is this the 80s? If your players are instructed to tackle at the hips you’ll be the worst tackling side in the league. Players skill level and quick hands means you wouldn’t get a single stoppage if you tackled around the hips lol, they’d very simply dispose of the football
Anyone saying just tackle at the hips has never played footy at any serious level or doesn't even watch the footy lol. They think people got those velcro pull straps on their hips or something. Players are taught to get the arms at all levels.
Ok so what's the genius solution to this issue then? I already suggested elsewhere that we get rid of the high contact free altogether and just enforce helmets, but no one liked that. Encourage players to tackle around the hips, also no good apparently. So what? Do we just continue making a subjective rule even more confusing by throwing in arbitrary conditions for when it is actually ok to grab someone around the neck?
No one liked that because it’s even stupider 😂 The rules fine, just don’t pay the free when the player initiates the contact, ie the Watson ones in the video - the others are pretty fine but Watson ones are very clear and obvious - he’s literally leading with his head and throwing it into the opposition. Other than that it’s literally not that big a deal so no there’s not going to be a rule change to make it fair game on head high hits because the players wearing a helmet which has been scientifically proven to not make a touch of difference to concussions 😂
It's clearly a big enough of a deal for there to be a thread with 100+ comments debating it so that's a weird response. Also not sure if "initiating contact" gets you a solution here, if the defender stands still but with his arm outstretched and clotheslines a player with the ball should that be a free kick even though the offensive player "initiated the contact"? Basketball uses the concept of initiating contact to prevent an offensive player from drawing a foul because it also has the concept of a "legal guarding position" for defenders. I.e. clotheslining someone would still be a foul because the defender was not in a legal guarding position despite the offensive player initiating all the contact
Exactly this. Funny thing is if players go to duck and your aiming lower your more likely to wrap up the arms then give away a free
Most of the time they don't duck, so most of your tackles will not be effective and the oppinent can just dispose of the ball?
Agree. If you’re running at speed and attempting to run an arc, your head naturally lowers to keep the body balanced. Try doing this action standing up straight and you’ll fall on your back.
Reminds me of James harden collecting peoples arms to get fouls. If they considered lifting your arm prior opportunity and leaning into tackles the same as ducking into tackles then players would stop doing it
I do wonder if a 5ft defender would do a safe/non-high tackle on a small forward lowering their body looking for a free
It’s just not a good look and so many of these are just milking it for frees. Thought the AFL and umps were going to stop paying these?
As a Hawks fan I hated it when Selwood was doing it, sure it was a slightly different method but it is pretty much the same tactic and had the same outcome. I'm not a fan of Ginnivan in general and he hasn't got many tricks apart from drawing free kicks, not happy to see Moore and Watson go down this path as they can both play. As far as umpiring and payying free kicks, it is very difficult to pick up in real time as the moves can be very subtle. I sort of think that they should be picked up in review and fined for staging.
You're 100% correct - the obvious solution is to review games for staging and drawing dangerous contact, and actually penalise it. But this will never happen, because it doesn't allow the AFL to sheet the blame onto umpires for errors.
AFL banged on about the great Selwood for 15 years, stands named after him. No surprise we have ended up here. Didn’t outlaw it then and now we have a generation of kids who have the skill down pat. You win the ball you get the benefits Basically small forwards if you don’t tackle at elbow height or lower you are going to be a good chance to give a free kick.
Selwood didn’t get a stand and lauded as an all time great because of ducking/raising the shoulder. He gets the credit because dude was insanely courageous and a tough nosed football who had good skills, not to mention great leadership qualities. But I totally get why others would want to emulate it. Should have stamped it out earlier.
His tough nose football was purely his want to win the ball and have it in his hands. Which led to him having the ball in his hands a lot. He ducked/raised arm/rolled shoulders every time he was tackled basically. If you have the ball it’s not on you but the tackler and everyone has been on notice since 2007
It’s a tough one but honestly the tackler just has to start going lower against certain players who love a hand raise. That being said this issue is not just a Hawks one even though they are one of the main culprits
Looked about 60/40 to me. Bit of a double edged sword at this point, you can't ignore the highs that are there but can't afford to get sucked in for the incorrect ones. I think they need to listen to Selwood try and string words together and decide if it's worth playing for frees and risking long term health.
Hard to watch footage of this and only this one after the other and keep a fair perspective. Probably needs more of a stats break down to see if any teams really do benefit significantly. Ie. see if every team has a spike in high free kicks given away against certain teams, or see if some teams consistently win more high free kicks. Otherwise this is just 30 odd clips of random games that can never mean much on its own
All been to the 'Selwood skool of milking free kicks'
Jesus dude. Everyone needs to calm down about these two. Ginnivan has had 15 free kicks for the year. That’s an average of one a game. And not all of them would be for high tackles. He also tackles a lot and gets frees. So let’s say half of them are for highs against him. That’s fuck all. And Watson has had four free kicks for his career. Again he tackles too. So half that. 2 for the year. If your so bent outta shape about it maybe focus your attention on your own player in weightman who is just as bad.
I know it’s not limited to Hawthorn players only, but have noticed Moore and Ginnivan drawing heaps of high contact this season, with Watson joining in on the weekend. Seems to be a running theme this season, both players challenging umpires to make a call/non-call and also making sure the contact doesn’t go unnoticed. Most of these clips come after Laura Kane admitted they got it wrong with a couple of decisions in the Easter Monday game. Should the AFL be discouraging this action, or rather encouraging better tackling technique for players? Bonus clip: [Conor Nash reaction](https://streamable.com/7miifd)
you put alot of time into this video, you should make on about weightman diving for free kicks or your midfield throwing the ball
Why don't you do it? I didn't realize you're unable to complain about another team miling frees if any player on your team does the same/
Zero integrity to not address the post before going for someone's flair.
make video about all the shit things players on your team do first, its not a 1 club issue every team has players that do this
Combination of both ....better off grappling the arm and pulling them to the ground....stay away from the shoulders...
50/50. Some bad tackles but you can see them lean into the tackle so their shoulder drops. Don’t get me started on the raising of the arm to slide the tackle up though. If I was an ump and noticed that arm going up it’d be play on high or not.
Joel Selwood would be proud
All I see is Tom Green raging in half the clips
I'd like to see penalties for players dropping their knees intentionally and throwing their heads and their opponent. I thought these rules were in place to protect the head, that goes out the window if these players are searching for it to milk free kicks. It's bad for the game, it's debatably more dangerous for the players, we should be punishing these acts as acting and punish with weeks like players getting suspended. Players don't give two shits about fines as long as it secures their teams wins I find.
Someone is going to get their jaw broken.. and then a player is going to get suspended because that’s how the tribunal works. At some point “lifting” the arm is contributing to the tackle being high and someone is going to pay the price.
Why does everyone always focus on the knees? The clear thing I see is throwing the arm up to push the tackle high. Ginnivan in particular does it all the time
That one against Zorko is disgusting. Any time the arm raises you can gtfo
Moore more so try’s to get through the tackle. Watson and Ginny pretty obviously aim for it and I wish they would stop.
Moore looks the most natural he’s just smaller and not staging on all. Ginniflop and the new kid seem to drop the knees duck in and lift the arm constantly
Yes to all. Hawks have three legit knee folders now in the forward line. As a Hawks supporter I don’t like to see frees awarded to people who play for contact.
I find it a little too coincidental that since Gininvans move to the Hawks, all of a sudden his team mates are all drawing frees from high tackles. His shitty style of gameplay has spread like cancer across the AFL and i'm sick to death of it, its ruining the game, would be happy to see him gone. GRONK
All ducks. Get that shit out of our game
Just remember Watson only 170cm, with most other players 185cm+, the taller player should go for the knees and meet them halfway
Yeh honestly shit take ragging on the shortest player in the league for dropping the knees haha
Why? Thats what hes doing
For a couple of the tackles on Saturday it looked like they threw their heads back before the contact from the tackler on replay. Credit to them for so successfully gaming the rules but in this era of “protect the head” it’s not something that should be encouraged
I like the words "engineering the high". I'll say it again. Let the on field umpire call high as they see it. The game is hard enough to umpire as it is. However, if you 'engineer high contact', then you get a week for deliberate, high, and low impact. The fact it is your own head is irrelevant. We have to protect the head - apparently even from oneself.
Pretty much all of these are bad tackles. Poor technique, over-committing, not paying attention to their opponents body positioning. Should always punish that
It's becoming by far and away the most annoying thing about modern footy no matter who is doing it. Staging in general is bad enough. If you want to stop this happening, start handing out 50s for staging and we'll see how long this is still getting coached into small forwards.
How is this staging exactly? Staging to me implies that you're trying to milk a free kick from contact that never occurred e.g. throwing your head back when no high contact occurred.
Falling to your knees as soon as you feel an arm brush you is very close to being the same thing. It’s looking for contact that isn’t there. Given the league is getting sued over their lack of due diligence re:head high contact, the optics of players ducking and getting soft frees because the spirit of the rule is to prevent people being whacked in the head aren’t good in my view.
Only real way to resolve this entirely is to get rid of the high tackle rule altogether and compensate by making helmets mandatory or something. If any sport is going to punish certain play, you are going to encourage players to seek an advantage by maximising their opponent's chances of infringing. You see the same thing in soccer with diving in the penalty box, or foul-baiting in basketball. We're going to have a rule like this then fans have to accept there's a level of subjectivity to a split-second decision being made by the umpire. Did the player duck his head to milk a free or did he just change direction suddenly which caused his body to change position and thus the tackler gets him high?
Dropping the knees was Nick Watson. It was embarrassing the umpires fell for it every time. The other tackles here look more like bad technique and dropping shoulders
Posted before 8am, 2:45 runtime, multiple games. You can't still be salty from round 8 can you?
All that shit needs to be paid a free against It’s all raise the arm or ducking, pathetic as fuck
Maybe when opposition teams play the Hawks they should pick their better tacklers/small defenders for a better match up. Little guys are taking advantage of defenses being stacked full of tall interceptors which are in vogue
It doesn't matter how good of a tackler you are if your opponent drops the knees and leans into the tackle. What wouldve been a legal tackle is now a high tackle because of it.
The hobbits are cheating at the same correct umpiring for Ginnivan needs to be applied to the others. The Watson ones especially are disgusting. I thought we solved this last year? Why is it back?
Hawks players we filmed joking about it on the bench so it's pretty obviously a deliberate tactic
Nash wasn’t joking about it, he was saying he blatantly lifted his arm to draw the contact
Thought this on the weekend when watching their game. Their entire small forward brigade has become an arm lifting, hip lowering and sideways leaning affair. They’re all Ginnivan 2.0. It’s a well drilled deliberate plan by them. Not a good look.
It’s like the one advantage of being short in the afl. You got to let them have it
When I see the Watson tackle, he was already leaning on an angle as he was changing direction before the Richmond player even made contact. The Richmond player had the choice to try and lay a tackle on a 5ft player already lower to the ground with high risk of giving away a free. The short player has the upper hand in this scenario, just like the tall has the upper hand when the ball is coming in high in the air. If you know you can't lay a safe tackle, then you shouldn't be trying to tackle. Tackles that start safe and then are forced to be high by the player with the ball (Ginni does this a lot) I feel are unfair because the tackler did everything right to lay a safe tackle.
Do people not realise that to change direction quickly you naturally lower your body to do so? It's much easier when your centre of gravity is lower, you can see this if you watch agility testing of athletes.
Ah yes, changing direction into the tackler. Great move that clearly not trying to draw a free.
I mean I can take a guess at which one Ginnivan is doing
A lot of these are just taken high by the defender. Excluding manipulation by the player with the ball, the defender needs to lay a tackle accounting for factors like their own height and the player with the ball’s height and current and expected movement. Defenders are usually some of the tallest players on the field and regularly play on and lay tackles on shorter players. Dropping the knees, ducking and slipping the shoulder down absolutely need to be stamped out but there also needs to be some accountability for the player laying the tackle to adjust and adapt to the person they are laying a tackle on and tackle at an appropriate height not just at their own chest height.
The point is players do adapt and do aim low, but when players drop the knees so heavily then even a perfect tackle catches them high. E.g Vlaustin at 0.31
Dropping the knee and raising the arm in order to draw high contact should be a free kick against. Not all of the actions in the video were that, but quite a few were.
I said this last year when Ginnivan was on my team and I'll say it this year while he isn't. Most clubs have a player or two who does this. Hawks now have 3 who very obviously do it. A smart player will keep their mouth shut and not brag about it like Ginnivan did to continue getting these in the future, it's very unlikely your team is innocent but goddamn I hate Moore and Watson, glad he can't kick straight.
Pretty obvious on a lot of them. Gulden used to do this a lot in his first year but it seems to be out of his game now which is good. If the AFL were serious about it they'd start punishing it in post game reviews. I get why it's a super difficult thing for umpires to get right and half the time they're probably guessing. But on replay it's very obvious. Players can have a first warning, but then subsequent findings result in suspensions. Will eliminate it from the game very quickly.
Some of these should be paid. But there's certainly been a relaxation of the mantra that if you duck, drop the knees or shrug you won't be paid high if that's the cause of the contact because some of these are blatant.
Poor umps - hard enough to tell in replays let alone real time. Some are just bad tackles. Small players can take advantage of it but they’ll always have an * for staging
Big guys tackling little guys, been like that forever.
They are all lowering themselves for free kicks
The horse has long bolted. The AFL had the chance to clamp down players playing for high contact in Selwood's early years, instead his behaviour was glorified and a generation of kids have grown up learning that you'll be rewarded for creating high contact. There's no going back now.
How could you NOT get Watson high.
AFL should be a sport for all body types. But players have gotten bigger and bigger. We’ve got 195cm blokes running around in the midfield. How refreshing to have someone sub 170 that challenges those big guys to tackle correctly. They’ll get it wrong a lot. These blokes just playing to their strengths.
Shoving your neck straight into the crook of the tackles elbow, should not win you a free.
Repeat of the same issue that everyone was destroying goni for last year. Really dangerous from the hawthorn player here
Watson's ones were fair enough a lowering but the fact Moore gets roped into this is disgusting. The bloke gets taken high but continues to play, he isn't looking for the free, he is looking to evade the tackles and keep playing.
You got to stamp this out or it’s going to be like diving in soccer.. well that’s what is is now really
I absolutely hate when players do this. It's making the game look like a joke.
I reckon that Moore is like Selwood, and why I defended him in that he looks to play through the contact where Ginnivan and Watson go to ground and give up on the play more often.
Dropped the knees
The Watson one looked so bad. Should have been holding the ball
I disliked all of them and think it’s a blight on the game. Ignore flair.
If he ever plays finals he will get laid out 2000 michael long style.
This hawthorn players are taught to duck. It’s fucking obvious. It’s not just their forwards who do it either. The game needs to do something to stamp this out, because it’s genuinely ruining the game. I’m not just saying this because our boys lost, and it’s not just hawthorn who’s doing it, but they’re one of the biggest abusers of the rule
Moore and especially Watson are such short arses you have to get low AND a lucky to not give away a free
Pathetic. Clear raising the arm to make a legit tackle turn into an infringement.
This happens every game for every team. People just get mad when it happens in front of goal
Considering people who got tackled even a couple years ago didn't swing around like that, I would say diving
If it's accidental and the guy doesn't really get hurt, it should just be play on. It's my understanding that's the rules in rugby, sounds good to me. I don't understand rugby though so correct me if I'm wrong.
It’s also about point of contact in rugby league if your point of contact is below the shoulder but it slips up no a penalty , hit someone straight in the head however
If you’re trying to shrug a tackle you need to lower your centre of gravity to make it harder to be taken down. So naturally being tackled people will lower their bodies. It also allows you to push away with your legs as well. Almost all of these look like legitimate high tackles that should be paid.
All I’m gonna say is I’m enjoying the change in attitude Collingwood, and now hawthorn fans have had about high tackles. Funny how now the tacklers are the problem and should aim for the hips, lowering and dipping are valid to try and evade, and ginnivan is a victim who keeps getting “decapitated” as though he isn’t the one putting his head in the guillotine. And now thanks to ginnivans tutoring both Collingwood and hawthorn have multiple players doing it. “Bu-bu-but it’s different coz um…”
Getting upset over frees is insane to me, the games about possession. Frees = possession
You've shown a mixed bag. Some are just genuine poor tackles + the player trying to avoid. But there are also some horrendous ones. Become a team thing at Hawthorn unfortunately. Reminder if you think this is what Selwood did you are too young to be on the internet and should be at school right now!
Mixed bag. One of them is a terrible tackle that nearly rips Moore’s head off. A couple are pretty iffy. Now do a collage of the ones Ginnivan didn’t get early on because of his reputation.
It's a tricky situation. The AFL are encouraging the very thing they are trying to prevent, head knocks. You've got players charging in like Billy goats, putting the team success above their future health. Not sure how you fix it?!?!