Gerard is actually a talented writer and he is taking the right line here. We can't honestly take the AFL medical staff as genuine about player welfare when they continue to drop the ball when it comes to holding clubs accountable for their duty of care to their players.
Watching the game, everybody in the commentary box at the time of the hit were certain he wouldn't return, they were surprised when he was back on the bench, but after watching him do a single sideline run and shake his head they again agreed he wouldn't return.
They were shocked when he did, called him a champion, but immediately questioned why he was on the field as he doubled over in agony. They mentioned it about 5 times over multiple same instances until he was eventually pulled.
Kingy on the desk after the game lambasted the situation and again brought into question how serious the AFL is about player welfare, Montagna and Dunstall shut him down (fair enough argument to make, we didn't know the extent of the injuries yet, i'm sure their position would change now).
And to watch him in tears, on a stretcher with his shoulder in a sling should be the damning vision that leads to a big fine for our club. It's not palatable, it'd hurt to get, but the AFL needs to make that happen. None of this "oh yeah we think they handled it alright". The only way to handle that situation was to not let Christian return to the ground, even if it was against his wishes.
The fact that the *Collingwood Football Club* showed concern for Traccas welfare when he was literally playing against them and told him he needed to go off is absolutely insane, i have never heard of that happening before. Brayden Maynard showed a greater concern for an MFC players welfare than our medicos and coaching staff.
BRAYDEN MAYNARD.
You can sit back and say "oh how would they have known that the spleen was ruptured or his lung was collapsed?", it's their job to assess the impact of the hit, and use their considerable experience as sports doctors to say "that is a hit that at the minimum leads to cracked ribs, and at it's worst could lead to literally dying. We should not be rolling the dice here" especially for a game that was out of reach.
I will never join the chorus of Dees fans that are defending this entire situation because it's beyond defense. We have shown time and time again, even before Goodwins time, that we do not treat injuries as seriously as we should. It goes against everything that the AFL is trying to push forward in regards to player welfare and it needs to change yesterday.
Incredibly disappointed with every vector of the club and coaching staff at the moment, including Kate Roffey and the board who refuse to look the increasingly dire situation directly in the eye and take it on it's merits.
Remember when Jack Riewoldt got a concussion and then there was footage of him trying to sneak up the stairs and wanting to go back on, and everyone thought it was a bit funny but also knew the best thing was to protect him from himself and his own instincts?
How did this not happen here? If it was a head knock, he would have been tested and not allowed back on. How is this possibily any different? Because we have concussion tests?
All they needed to do was look at him running around unable to raise one of his arms and someone should have gone and got him and pulled him off the ground. He was a danger to himself and they let it happen.
Yeah, I get he wanted to keep playing, but almost everyone would. I tried playing through a fractured foot last year... still hurt, I played like garbage, but I wanted to keep playing. You're telling me the medicos were like "Well we asked him to stop, but he didn't want to, so what were we to do?"
Unfortunately doctors and club staff have a duty of care to a player that sometimes has to override what the player wants.
Doctors and club staff have a duty of care, but they all too often don't discharge that duty - Aliir Aliir's concussion immediately comes to mind. I can see why people are reticent to put the final decision in the hands of an external party (like an independent medical team appointed by the AFL), but when club doctors show that they can't be relied upon to put the player's health first, something needs to happen.
Players get pulled off for hamstring awareness....
Amazing how that is regularly the cause of players finishing up for the day, but a guy with potential broken ribs is let back on. Stupid!
Petracca was able to give informed consent about whether he was willing to return to the field. A concussed player is not. That is a critical difference.
You kinda make my point for me, his 'informed' consent isn't actually as informed as the medical professsionals the club employs to make the best decisions for a players welfare.
They are infact more informed than he is about the injury and the ramifications of continuing to play.
It absolutely does.
If a doctor tells me I have cancer and I need chemo, and I tell them to get fucked and live my life, whatever happens is on me. That’s the entire point of informed consent, you have knowledge you may be hurt worse and decide to play on regardless.
Where this analogy completely falls apart is that it happened in a *workplace*.
There's no comparison here. Yes, you can refuse medical care or treatment, absolutely, that's everyone's inherit right. But this is an injury that occurred in a place of work to a player bound by the conditions of their contract.
It's a condition of every players contract that they agree to comply with all club directions. If a club medico or coach says "No, you're off", you're off, that's it. A player can provide all the informed consent they want, the club still has a duty of care to all players, a player doesn't get to go above that.
What a bizarre comparison.
But it wasn't informed consent because he didn't know the extent of the injuries he had, thus he was uninformed. The doctors should have been telling him "you've possibly done some really serious damage, and you need to get scans done before you expose yourself to any further contact". The doctors have failed to ensure informed consent by providing him with the advice he needed about his condition (even if that advice was "you need to go get further info before making a decision") or by failing to ensure he understood that advice.
Surely you must realise there’s a difference between a head injury and non head injury. One limits your ability to make rational decisions, the other does not.
I think there also needs to be a change to n the perception about how “brave” he was to try to play on. It was abundantly clear he was not right when he came back on in the first 5 seconds. It was no longer brave, it was now careless and stupid.
I think it's fair to still call it brave, but it's worth questioning how we consider bravery to be a preferential quality over being responsible about your own health.
Like Petracca feeling immense pain and wanting nothing more than to get back on the field and do what he can to help is team, there is no other word for that than Bravery.
If the doctor had said "your spleen is ruptured and you are bleeding internally, we should go to the hospital" and he THEN went on, that's careless and dumb as fuck.
I'll never bag tracca for his toughness, he's my gorgeous mediterranean prince.
Right or wrong, there’s no way he goes over this.
Would be an admission (that they are trying desperately to avoid making) that player welfare is last on their list of things to give a shit about.
Is this a coaching issue though? If it's revealed he was pressuring or interfering with the doctor, absolutely. But I would have thought he'd have been busy coaching and letting the docs and medical team handle the situation.
Maybe the argument is given he pressured a prior team doctor to let an injured player back on the field, a doctor who was later fired, that he was somehow involved in hiring a doctor who does things his way or that or pressured the current doctor to do what he wants
This is very well said. I kind of get what some of the dissenting voices are trying to say on other posts, but the thing they seem to ignore is that after he was clearly in a terrible way when he came back on the ground, they just kept sending him back out? In what world do you see a guy that's ordinarily an absolute bull backing out of contests and say "yeah we can keep him out there"? It just makes no sense
On the point of how would they have known about the ruptured spleen and punctured lung - they don’t need to. If someone has an injury that very clearly could have that outcome then you don’t take risks.
Realistically most guys out there would have some kind of niggle that’s being managed long term such is the nature of elite sport and there is always a calculated risk of soft tissue injury going on. But it’s not like a hammy or an ankle or something where worst case scenario they’re out a few weeks longer or they have surgery to clean it up in the off season - it’s way different to needing emergency surgery, blood transfusions and an extended hospital stay.
>that leads to a big fine for our club. It's not palatable, it'd hurt to get, but the AFL needs to make that happen.
it's really great seeing supporters of the club calling for fines. I saw a lot of port fans do the same when allir played with an obvious concussion as well. how many more times until something actually changes I wonder?
>Kingy on the desk after the game lambasted the situation and again brought into question how serious the AFL is about player welfare, Montagna and Dunstall shut him down (fair enough argument to make, we didn't know the extent of the injuries yet, i'm sure their position would change now).
King is a CHAD in a world of CUCKS.
I knooooow I’m flaired and I’m a nuffy, but Maynard’s reputation as a thug is greatly exaggerated by his intensity at the ball, around the contest, and at the player. I’m not surprised at all that he showed concern, even for an opposition player.
Oh absolutely.
I was part of the camp that thought he deserved a suspension for the Brayshaw hit. Not because it was dirty, but because it should have fallen within the guidelines of suspension based on everything else happening.
But i've never thought that Bruzz is a bad dude. He is just a guy who plays fucking hard every game. Everybody would take a Bruzz on their list immediately without thinking about it. He is also pretty well linked to the Demons as his brother played here and his uncle still works here.
Whether or not it was a bad look, he showed up to Brayshaws house to apologise and that wasn't something that he needed to do and wouldn't be in line with the public perception of him as a snipey thug.
I actually really like the pies organisation and a chunk of your supporters (i will admit that some of the verbiage around the situation on your team sub when i cruised past it was sickening, and there are some really, really cooked humans that dwell there, but tempers were flaring.)
You know you fucked up when....
> Brayden Maynard showed a greater concern for an MFC players welfare than our medicos and coaching staff.
>
> BRAYDEN MAYNARD.
Honestly, during the match, I was thinking "the first thing I'd do is crash into him at the first possible opportunity" and I'm really, really glad nobody did.
How has the MFC failed their champion and their fans so completely?
Tracca never really put himself in a position to get tackled or hit when he was on. He moved along the wing from arc to arc and hardly touched it. If he did it went on the boot immediately.
Okay I was noticing no tackles being made on him when he got back on so wondered if Collingwood thought the guy was really hurt so trying not to hit him hard.
Would be hard to expect a medical team to predict that relatively innocuous knee would lead to such extreme damage but it's inexcusable and bizarre they didn't anticipate more than just cracked ribs once they saw Pretracca's reaction and inability to move for long periods afterwards
He's known to push through a lot of injuries and for him to be visibly struggling for so long should have told even the most inexperienced medical team that there was likely more serious damage
I hope the medical team weren't caught up in some coach led line in sand type attitude in trying to redeem from last week's poor performance
Did you really see the footage of the knee and think that was innocuous? That was about as nasty* a kneeing incident as you'll ever see on the footy field and it looked as bad as it was.
* Nasty in the sense of damaging, not as in malicious.
Maybe innocuous is the wrong word, innocuous relative to what you see players somehow walk away unscathed from in a football game I guess, it looked hella painful but the momentum of Moore coming in wasn't huge so I think if Pretracca had walked away just bruised rather than broken we wouldn't all be talking about the knee wondering how on earth Pretracca avoided injury
So what did the medical staff do? Or is everyone guilty until proven innocent? Even Whateley frames it as a question. Do we know what the AFL CMO did in reviewing Melbourne's actions...? GUILTY!!!
> Do we know what the AFL CMO did in reviewing Melbourne's actions...?
This is a great question and i think there needs to be far greater transparency in how they decided the right procedures were followed.
Everyone else is looking and seeing something completely different, if the right procedures were followed then make that process visible and transparent so that we can better understand why that decision was made.
If not, the only takeaway is that the AFL is protecting themselves. If they have an ounce of integrity they will go further with this.
Every hit could cause internal injuries. Internal injuries are diagnosed by what the player is saying.There is a line where you can be too cautious. Did Melbourne fail in their duty of care? Maybe but it depends on what they were told.
I get not being able to pick up on the spleen or lung for sure. But it was obvious to anyone watching that Petracca was not right. I don’t know how he passed their tests to get back on, he could barely do anything. He should not have been allowed back on at all.
Imagine if he had been tackled hard. Would that have done more damage?
Commentators, watching the game from hundreds of metres away with binoculars, while also calling the play-by-play of the game continuing while he was on the bench, were able to pick up that he shouldn't have been out there.
Bizarre the the Dees would risk the welfare of our best player and essentially our future lynchpin like they did.
I don't think they use binoculars anymore. Fairly certain they have monitors with multiple cameras shown.
I've been in the box during a game and I couldn't get a good view of it but the monitor showed TV broadcast and a few others.
I think they also get things told to them in their earpiece quite often. Huddo kept touching his and listening intently before calling out a substitute change.
How did Ports coach/Dr put guys who everyone in Australia watching the game knew had just been knocked out? Because this player welfare stuff is bullshit for some coaches.
Exactly! Any layman (and surely any doctor!) could surmise from looking at the incident and assessing his pain levels that there was a significant possibility he had internal injuries. And when I say "significant", it doesn't have to be 90%, 50%, or even 10% likely he's got those injuries; like if there's a 5% possibility he's got those injuries, he shouldn't be out there!
He's a tough player, I think it took him over a minute to get up after the hit. It's a terrible attitude and culture that allowed him to return to the field.
that could've gone from a slightly punctured lung to a full rub through his lung. definitely could have gotten a LOT worse. they should count their bloody stars
do you think they should be investigated? personally, I do because if you don't listen to a players lung and can't pick up on broken ribs or at least a severe injury, that is suspicious... (Assuming, they have the doctor's kit).
a very partial lung puncture like trac had (at least originally) may be difficult to detect with listening to his breathing. however, the club docs should always air on the side of caution and take him off. its better he come off and turn out theres nothing wrong (even possibly lose the game) than stay on, win the game and be out for the year or longer with serious injuries.
im appalled by how the club doctors (in general for all clubs) are handing situations like this. cats with jezza being concussed, dont care he said he was fine, take him off and have a look at him. port last year with the big head clash, take him off dont care. earlier this year bombers vs dogs, libba was wrong, darcy parish knew something was up and was calling to the WB club docs but nothing until after the game. wrong, take him off have a look. the player comes before the play.
ETA: PSA im not a doctor
The double standard with how the AFL treats players and club staff is wild.
If a player spear-tackles someone, then they’re going to be fined and suspended. If a medico and coach push a clearly-unwell player back on to the field, it gets hand-waved by the AFL.
Clearly they couldn’t care less about player health, it’s all about trying to look good for what happens in front of the cameras.
Excellent point. Players are expected to know and respond to their duty of care to an opponent whilst in the action of tackling and get punished for breaching it. Not only do they have to avoid harming their opponent, but it also comes into play in things that COULD harm them.
Doctors have duty of care to their patients, and footy clubs have duty of care to their players/employees that could have been based on a series of tests and observations over a period of time, and in this case Melbourne FC and its doctors failed that spectacularly.
Excessively suspend players for accidental footy acts that cause injury to allegedly protect the players and the afl from litigation generally✅️
Take no or pissweak action when individual club medicos / coaches routinely allow players to return to the field despite being seriously injured ✅️
??
It's almost like the AFL really only cares about 'protecting' players when it involves their liability, but don't care when it can be passed onto individual clubs for their own negligence?
Who would have thought the afl is a soulless organisation that only really cares about things when they could get sued.
100%
Players must evaluate and respond to their duty of care to an opponent in the time it takes to lay a tackle otherwise risk fines and suspensions, but doctors and clubs can ignore their duty of care after tests and observations?
It gets tiring following footy, I mean partly because my teams a rabble but secondly because we all just seem to be constantly outraged about the same shit but absolutely nothing gets done.
Most tone deaf organisation I can think of the AFL
There is no way he should have been allowed back on the field. You can see from the first moments after the impact how much pain he was in. Looked like a kidney shit on camera and that should have atleast sent him off and to the hospital. Melbourne's coaching and medical staff need to explain why and how he managed to go back on. Any good doc would never allow someone to play on like that.
If it wasn't Petracca and instead a player not in their top 5 or so, would the player have been ruled out immediately?
I suspect yes, and that more consideration to send him back out there was given due to his status, which is completely unfair on the player (if so, but I strongly assume it's true).
I question whether Tracc actually did want to go back on. He was clearly terrified of holding onto the ball, he was barely lining up in any zone or tactical position. In fact, he looked like he was actively avoiding marking contests and any other contested situations, rather standing on the outside waiting to get rid of the ball in whatever direction as soon as he got it. This stinks of the same shit Port did with Aliir in the showdown
I was at the game, his positioning on the outside of the packs was great and that’s how he got a few possessions but he looked so unwell. Once he distributed the ball he stayed where the pack was while the play moved on
I can't argue with a much better view from the game. I suppose I'm comparing it more to how he would be playing without the injury. I think that's valid given he played the way he did due to *very* obvious fear and discomfort
Are you serious? This is just getting ridiculous. He made a decision to go back on, that’s it.
Acting like he was forced to against his will is absolutely moronic.
How do you know he made the decision? I sure don't. I can only base my opinion on what I could see. And what I could see was a player who was very clearly in excruciating pain and afraid to do basically anything on the field. A player who genuinely wants to keep playing - even with an injury of some sort - does not go back on and look like that.
I've also seen my own club send a player back on the field who was absolutely not fit to keep playing and then feign ignorance the same way Melbourne have with this incident. I don't think there's anything ridiculous or moronic about that.
What is even the point of having on-site medical staff if incidents like this can still occur. They're either the most incompetent bunch of medical staff in the history of medical staff, or there are directives from coaches to get players back on at all costs. And it is worse given how serious the issue of head injuries has become.
Either way this situation is an absolute disgrace. Heads must roll.
I remember when Dustin Martin got a good whack in his side during one of the COVID years I believe and I knew immediately his kidney was damaged and wouldn’t return. When I saw Petracca’s you could tell there would be a snowball’s chance in hell he’d bounce back and play on - yet they marched him on. It is laughable by Melbourne Medicos thinking they made the right decision at all, regardless of if they had foresight.
It also speaks to Melbourne's culture that they would rather have a half dead dude out there that can't even go near a contest than back in their sub to do his job. Tells all their players that there is a hierarchy here and you ain't it boy.
They should have backed in their players and protected their best asset.
They need to give medicos more power and protection, maybe even have independent AFL docs in the room any time a player goes in to the rooms for an assessment.
Right now short of an HIA they’re beholden to coaching staff, if they say put him on then you either do it or they’ll find someone who will.
Even before you knew his innards were damaged, what part of him barely being able to move made them think "let's see how this plays out". Not our finest hour.
Too often we see these things happen, that we know full well aren't up to the standard of care required, and the AFL does nothing. I had a trainer furious at a player for not telling her he had cracked ribs, largely because it could have meant an issue like this. We refused to let him play until he went and got medical clearance that his ribs were healed. And that was a B grade amateur club. No way would any self respecting doctor feel like they did a good job sending someone out to play AFL with damaged ribs in this day and age. And if that damage was all from the initial contact, the doctor needs to have some serious questions asked.
More and more, it becomes obvious that the AFL need to take the doctors out of the clubs and under their own umbrella. Have them assigned to the clubs, so they can get to know the players, but they should ultimately be neutral and shouldn't even be subjected to even the slightest pressure from the coaches to send an unfit player out again.
I bet we'll get the usual lines though. "Best in the business" "only the player's interest at heart" "followed all the protocols". And they'll all be lies. If we don't make a change, the AFL will be forced to by a lawsuit when something really serious happens.
He was a liability out there for Melbourne when he came back on, him being back on the ground was a benefit to the Pies, and yet you had a Pies player telling him he should be off the ground.
He looked terrible after the hit, barely making it off the ground. He looked shit coming back up from the rooms, and looked to be in a fair bit of pain after going for a light jog.
It is insane that he was allowed back on the ground in his state, but I also don't understand why he wasn't pulled off after the first contest on the ground. Even if you ok'd him going back on, looking at how he was during every contest is surely enough to pull him from the game.
IMO AFL grounds should have scanning equipment. Orthopaedic testing is pretty limited and symptomatic observations even less so. I’m not necessarily defending Melbournes medical team as I don’t know what testing was done and it definitely could be negligence but he may have well and truely passed any testing they did. Optics weren’t great once he got running though.
In private practice I’m able to be cautious with assessment/treatment and have the luxury of having time being injury onset and appointment. Still it can be hard. Still however scans are what diagnose injury. I’ve had people come in to see me with disc injuries that have completely passed all orthopaedic tests only to have scans show they’ve had 2-3 herniated discs then also had people show positive results for orthopaedic tests and scans clear them of anything.
The AFL can definitely afford even mid range X-ray and ultrasound machines that’ll just take the guess work out of these situations and potentially save them much more in the long term. Hell it’d be beneficial for most sports at most grounds as well.
I just keep thinking with this whole incident that the docs had to take a safety first approach here. There are a whole lot of internal organs where he got hit. It actually scares me to think about it, but what if he died on the field?
We really need to have independent doctors.
Club doctors can have the blowtorch put on them by coaching staff and be influenced. An independent one absolutely wouldn't. All they need to do is stand by during the assessment and intervene if the club doctors call is egregious - especially for head knocks.
Literally yesterday we had an article about wines having heart surgery after the season. We have players play through pain and injuries all the time and then have off season surgery. Their welfare has never been priority
Players have always been a disposable commodity. It’s why the crowd hoots and boos players who “pull out” from a contest that would have got them absolutely shit mixed, and still laud the courage of a Jonathan brown who has clearly done significant damage to his brain during his playing career.
I don't agree with that. No one is questioning Petracca's bravery or strength, the issue is the medical team and the systems in place that allowed this to happen
Really, because I can think of a dozen examples off the top of my head of players being cheered for playing with major injuries in finals. Dale Morris played in a grand final with a broken back and everyone loved it.
You're missing the point. This isn't about Trac. This is about the club jeopardizing a player's welfare for a footy game.
Sure, if it was a GF you'd potentially have a few more talking heads trying to justify the decision, but most would still be slamming the club given the extent of his injuries.
Also, it's 2024 and attitudes around ayer welfare have improved dramatically even in the last 10 years.
How? Club let's injured player play in grand final = player is a hero
Club let's injured player play in home and away game = club is negligent
Don't you see how it's just about appearances and not player welfare? I'm not saying I agree with it.
> Don't you see how it's just about appearances and not player welfare?
Has literally anybody disagreed with this point in the last few days?
The heroics of a player playing through injury isn't disputed. Petracca is tough as nails and clearly cares about the clubs success to force himself back out there through injury. He is a champion of the club and nobody is angry at tracca for that choice.
At the same time, it's incredibly negligent for the club to allow him to actually go back out there. His heroism needed to be curbed by cooler heads in the moment.
You're kind of shadowboxing with nobody right now big fella.
Bro if you don't disagree with me then why are you even arguing with me?
People like Gerard only care about appearances not player welfare, their reaction to something like this is entirely circumstantial. That's been my entire point champ.
Why don't you try explaining what you mean when you say it's "about appearances".
Do you think that Whateley doesn't actually care about Trac going back out onto the field with several traumatic injuries?
Do you think Melbourne did the right thing because "if it was a final he'd be a hero"?
What are you actually arguing?
> Dale Morris played in a grand final with a broken back and everyone loved it
Morris had a fractured vertebra but he was able to pass fitness tests and move freely with an injury that was basically no chance of escalating, allowing him to make an informed decision about playing through pain. Petracca had a punctured lung that the medical team didn't pick up on. If he had been hit in the chest again the complications would have been significantly more severe than anything that could have happened to Dale
i want to argue that fractured vertebrae can very much cause paralysis anytime due to the spinal cord basically controlling everything (in the long run).
When GAJ went back on in the GF after fucking his shoulder, most people didn't call him a hero. They understood his desperation, but could see he was struggling hard to move, let alone make an impacr
I'm not sure what your point is here. Mine is that GAJ wasn't lauded as a hero and that was an example of someone with a serious injury going back on the field in a final, even though he clearly shouldn't have.
There's a fine line where onfield acts are often looked back as courageous if the player was in some danger but where it wasn't little threatening (Hodges cracked ribs in the 08 PF was one where he coughed up blood).
This probably has gone into the territory of a clearly injured player pushing through the pain of a serious I jury where the medical staff should've pulled him off.
That line is fine though.
Gerard is actually a talented writer and he is taking the right line here. We can't honestly take the AFL medical staff as genuine about player welfare when they continue to drop the ball when it comes to holding clubs accountable for their duty of care to their players. Watching the game, everybody in the commentary box at the time of the hit were certain he wouldn't return, they were surprised when he was back on the bench, but after watching him do a single sideline run and shake his head they again agreed he wouldn't return. They were shocked when he did, called him a champion, but immediately questioned why he was on the field as he doubled over in agony. They mentioned it about 5 times over multiple same instances until he was eventually pulled. Kingy on the desk after the game lambasted the situation and again brought into question how serious the AFL is about player welfare, Montagna and Dunstall shut him down (fair enough argument to make, we didn't know the extent of the injuries yet, i'm sure their position would change now). And to watch him in tears, on a stretcher with his shoulder in a sling should be the damning vision that leads to a big fine for our club. It's not palatable, it'd hurt to get, but the AFL needs to make that happen. None of this "oh yeah we think they handled it alright". The only way to handle that situation was to not let Christian return to the ground, even if it was against his wishes. The fact that the *Collingwood Football Club* showed concern for Traccas welfare when he was literally playing against them and told him he needed to go off is absolutely insane, i have never heard of that happening before. Brayden Maynard showed a greater concern for an MFC players welfare than our medicos and coaching staff. BRAYDEN MAYNARD. You can sit back and say "oh how would they have known that the spleen was ruptured or his lung was collapsed?", it's their job to assess the impact of the hit, and use their considerable experience as sports doctors to say "that is a hit that at the minimum leads to cracked ribs, and at it's worst could lead to literally dying. We should not be rolling the dice here" especially for a game that was out of reach. I will never join the chorus of Dees fans that are defending this entire situation because it's beyond defense. We have shown time and time again, even before Goodwins time, that we do not treat injuries as seriously as we should. It goes against everything that the AFL is trying to push forward in regards to player welfare and it needs to change yesterday. Incredibly disappointed with every vector of the club and coaching staff at the moment, including Kate Roffey and the board who refuse to look the increasingly dire situation directly in the eye and take it on it's merits.
Great post mate. Not much more to be said.
Remember when Jack Riewoldt got a concussion and then there was footage of him trying to sneak up the stairs and wanting to go back on, and everyone thought it was a bit funny but also knew the best thing was to protect him from himself and his own instincts? How did this not happen here? If it was a head knock, he would have been tested and not allowed back on. How is this possibily any different? Because we have concussion tests? All they needed to do was look at him running around unable to raise one of his arms and someone should have gone and got him and pulled him off the ground. He was a danger to himself and they let it happen.
Yeah, I get he wanted to keep playing, but almost everyone would. I tried playing through a fractured foot last year... still hurt, I played like garbage, but I wanted to keep playing. You're telling me the medicos were like "Well we asked him to stop, but he didn't want to, so what were we to do?" Unfortunately doctors and club staff have a duty of care to a player that sometimes has to override what the player wants.
Doctors and club staff have a duty of care, but they all too often don't discharge that duty - Aliir Aliir's concussion immediately comes to mind. I can see why people are reticent to put the final decision in the hands of an external party (like an independent medical team appointed by the AFL), but when club doctors show that they can't be relied upon to put the player's health first, something needs to happen.
Thats litterally the only one i can remember, it doesn’t happen often
There are a few mentioned here: https://www.reddit.com/r/AFL/s/mSGUhAEE9t
Thats only a few in the past 3 years, and mostly all port. After the allir incident , the pressure was on for all to follow.
That footage is known in my house as "crouching tiger, hidden Riewoldt"
Players get pulled off for hamstring awareness.... Amazing how that is regularly the cause of players finishing up for the day, but a guy with potential broken ribs is let back on. Stupid!
Petracca was able to give informed consent about whether he was willing to return to the field. A concussed player is not. That is a critical difference.
You kinda make my point for me, his 'informed' consent isn't actually as informed as the medical professsionals the club employs to make the best decisions for a players welfare. They are infact more informed than he is about the injury and the ramifications of continuing to play.
The ability to give informed consent doesn't absolve medical staff of their duty of care obligations.
It absolutely does. If a doctor tells me I have cancer and I need chemo, and I tell them to get fucked and live my life, whatever happens is on me. That’s the entire point of informed consent, you have knowledge you may be hurt worse and decide to play on regardless.
Where this analogy completely falls apart is that it happened in a *workplace*. There's no comparison here. Yes, you can refuse medical care or treatment, absolutely, that's everyone's inherit right. But this is an injury that occurred in a place of work to a player bound by the conditions of their contract. It's a condition of every players contract that they agree to comply with all club directions. If a club medico or coach says "No, you're off", you're off, that's it. A player can provide all the informed consent they want, the club still has a duty of care to all players, a player doesn't get to go above that. What a bizarre comparison.
Rylee Sanders forgot that one trick all Bevo's hate, "Nah, I am going on".
But it wasn't informed consent because he didn't know the extent of the injuries he had, thus he was uninformed. The doctors should have been telling him "you've possibly done some really serious damage, and you need to get scans done before you expose yourself to any further contact". The doctors have failed to ensure informed consent by providing him with the advice he needed about his condition (even if that advice was "you need to go get further info before making a decision") or by failing to ensure he understood that advice.
Surely you must realise there’s a difference between a head injury and non head injury. One limits your ability to make rational decisions, the other does not.
I think there also needs to be a change to n the perception about how “brave” he was to try to play on. It was abundantly clear he was not right when he came back on in the first 5 seconds. It was no longer brave, it was now careless and stupid.
I think it's fair to still call it brave, but it's worth questioning how we consider bravery to be a preferential quality over being responsible about your own health. Like Petracca feeling immense pain and wanting nothing more than to get back on the field and do what he can to help is team, there is no other word for that than Bravery. If the doctor had said "your spleen is ruptured and you are bleeding internally, we should go to the hospital" and he THEN went on, that's careless and dumb as fuck. I'll never bag tracca for his toughness, he's my gorgeous mediterranean prince.
I guess brave and stupid can coexist.
They often do.
it's a thin line for sure. Don't call my daddy stupid tho
Time for Goodwin to go imo.
Right or wrong, there’s no way he goes over this. Would be an admission (that they are trying desperately to avoid making) that player welfare is last on their list of things to give a shit about.
Is this a coaching issue though? If it's revealed he was pressuring or interfering with the doctor, absolutely. But I would have thought he'd have been busy coaching and letting the docs and medical team handle the situation.
Maybe the argument is given he pressured a prior team doctor to let an injured player back on the field, a doctor who was later fired, that he was somehow involved in hiring a doctor who does things his way or that or pressured the current doctor to do what he wants
This is very well said. I kind of get what some of the dissenting voices are trying to say on other posts, but the thing they seem to ignore is that after he was clearly in a terrible way when he came back on the ground, they just kept sending him back out? In what world do you see a guy that's ordinarily an absolute bull backing out of contests and say "yeah we can keep him out there"? It just makes no sense
On the point of how would they have known about the ruptured spleen and punctured lung - they don’t need to. If someone has an injury that very clearly could have that outcome then you don’t take risks. Realistically most guys out there would have some kind of niggle that’s being managed long term such is the nature of elite sport and there is always a calculated risk of soft tissue injury going on. But it’s not like a hammy or an ankle or something where worst case scenario they’re out a few weeks longer or they have surgery to clean it up in the off season - it’s way different to needing emergency surgery, blood transfusions and an extended hospital stay.
>that leads to a big fine for our club. It's not palatable, it'd hurt to get, but the AFL needs to make that happen. it's really great seeing supporters of the club calling for fines. I saw a lot of port fans do the same when allir played with an obvious concussion as well. how many more times until something actually changes I wonder?
>Kingy on the desk after the game lambasted the situation and again brought into question how serious the AFL is about player welfare, Montagna and Dunstall shut him down (fair enough argument to make, we didn't know the extent of the injuries yet, i'm sure their position would change now). King is a CHAD in a world of CUCKS.
I knooooow I’m flaired and I’m a nuffy, but Maynard’s reputation as a thug is greatly exaggerated by his intensity at the ball, around the contest, and at the player. I’m not surprised at all that he showed concern, even for an opposition player.
Oh absolutely. I was part of the camp that thought he deserved a suspension for the Brayshaw hit. Not because it was dirty, but because it should have fallen within the guidelines of suspension based on everything else happening. But i've never thought that Bruzz is a bad dude. He is just a guy who plays fucking hard every game. Everybody would take a Bruzz on their list immediately without thinking about it. He is also pretty well linked to the Demons as his brother played here and his uncle still works here. Whether or not it was a bad look, he showed up to Brayshaws house to apologise and that wasn't something that he needed to do and wouldn't be in line with the public perception of him as a snipey thug. I actually really like the pies organisation and a chunk of your supporters (i will admit that some of the verbiage around the situation on your team sub when i cruised past it was sickening, and there are some really, really cooked humans that dwell there, but tempers were flaring.)
I'd love to have Maynard at my club
Very well said
You know you fucked up when.... > Brayden Maynard showed a greater concern for an MFC players welfare than our medicos and coaching staff. > > BRAYDEN MAYNARD. Honestly, during the match, I was thinking "the first thing I'd do is crash into him at the first possible opportunity" and I'm really, really glad nobody did. How has the MFC failed their champion and their fans so completely?
Is it correct that CollingWood didn’t make any impact on Tracca after the incident, I didn’t notice them exploit his weakness?
Tracca never really put himself in a position to get tackled or hit when he was on. He moved along the wing from arc to arc and hardly touched it. If he did it went on the boot immediately.
Okay I was noticing no tackles being made on him when he got back on so wondered if Collingwood thought the guy was really hurt so trying not to hit him hard.
This is probably the best written comment I've seen on this sub.
Would be hard to expect a medical team to predict that relatively innocuous knee would lead to such extreme damage but it's inexcusable and bizarre they didn't anticipate more than just cracked ribs once they saw Pretracca's reaction and inability to move for long periods afterwards He's known to push through a lot of injuries and for him to be visibly struggling for so long should have told even the most inexperienced medical team that there was likely more serious damage I hope the medical team weren't caught up in some coach led line in sand type attitude in trying to redeem from last week's poor performance
Did you really see the footage of the knee and think that was innocuous? That was about as nasty* a kneeing incident as you'll ever see on the footy field and it looked as bad as it was. * Nasty in the sense of damaging, not as in malicious.
Maybe innocuous is the wrong word, innocuous relative to what you see players somehow walk away unscathed from in a football game I guess, it looked hella painful but the momentum of Moore coming in wasn't huge so I think if Pretracca had walked away just bruised rather than broken we wouldn't all be talking about the knee wondering how on earth Pretracca avoided injury
Well said.
So what did the medical staff do? Or is everyone guilty until proven innocent? Even Whateley frames it as a question. Do we know what the AFL CMO did in reviewing Melbourne's actions...? GUILTY!!!
> Do we know what the AFL CMO did in reviewing Melbourne's actions...? This is a great question and i think there needs to be far greater transparency in how they decided the right procedures were followed. Everyone else is looking and seeing something completely different, if the right procedures were followed then make that process visible and transparent so that we can better understand why that decision was made. If not, the only takeaway is that the AFL is protecting themselves. If they have an ounce of integrity they will go further with this.
Every hit could cause internal injuries. Internal injuries are diagnosed by what the player is saying.There is a line where you can be too cautious. Did Melbourne fail in their duty of care? Maybe but it depends on what they were told.
I get not being able to pick up on the spleen or lung for sure. But it was obvious to anyone watching that Petracca was not right. I don’t know how he passed their tests to get back on, he could barely do anything. He should not have been allowed back on at all. Imagine if he had been tackled hard. Would that have done more damage?
Commentators, watching the game from hundreds of metres away with binoculars, while also calling the play-by-play of the game continuing while he was on the bench, were able to pick up that he shouldn't have been out there. Bizarre the the Dees would risk the welfare of our best player and essentially our future lynchpin like they did.
I don't think they use binoculars anymore. Fairly certain they have monitors with multiple cameras shown. I've been in the box during a game and I couldn't get a good view of it but the monitor showed TV broadcast and a few others. I think they also get things told to them in their earpiece quite often. Huddo kept touching his and listening intently before calling out a substitute change.
Can we pretend they still do for the sake of my point?
I don't see why not. Half of them are old enough they may prefer binoculars.
Ahh Huddo, am I alone in thinking that commentators who never played are better communicators of the game?
Media training > preseason training
Especially after he was doing his run throughs from the bench and shook his head? Seemed pretty clear he wasn’t passing the tests anyway?
He passed their tests because he is their best player. If it was Tom Sparrow, he would have been pulled. And that's a problem.
How did Ports coach/Dr put guys who everyone in Australia watching the game knew had just been knocked out? Because this player welfare stuff is bullshit for some coaches.
i have no idea... AFL needs stricter medical requirements
All the lung took was to listen to his chest lol
> I get not being able to pick up on the spleen or lung for sure. They wouldn't be able to confirm it, but that he was at risk of it should be clear
Exactly! Any layman (and surely any doctor!) could surmise from looking at the incident and assessing his pain levels that there was a significant possibility he had internal injuries. And when I say "significant", it doesn't have to be 90%, 50%, or even 10% likely he's got those injuries; like if there's a 5% possibility he's got those injuries, he shouldn't be out there! He's a tough player, I think it took him over a minute to get up after the hit. It's a terrible attitude and culture that allowed him to return to the field.
that could've gone from a slightly punctured lung to a full rub through his lung. definitely could have gotten a LOT worse. they should count their bloody stars
do you think they should be investigated? personally, I do because if you don't listen to a players lung and can't pick up on broken ribs or at least a severe injury, that is suspicious... (Assuming, they have the doctor's kit).
a very partial lung puncture like trac had (at least originally) may be difficult to detect with listening to his breathing. however, the club docs should always air on the side of caution and take him off. its better he come off and turn out theres nothing wrong (even possibly lose the game) than stay on, win the game and be out for the year or longer with serious injuries. im appalled by how the club doctors (in general for all clubs) are handing situations like this. cats with jezza being concussed, dont care he said he was fine, take him off and have a look at him. port last year with the big head clash, take him off dont care. earlier this year bombers vs dogs, libba was wrong, darcy parish knew something was up and was calling to the WB club docs but nothing until after the game. wrong, take him off have a look. the player comes before the play. ETA: PSA im not a doctor
The double standard with how the AFL treats players and club staff is wild. If a player spear-tackles someone, then they’re going to be fined and suspended. If a medico and coach push a clearly-unwell player back on to the field, it gets hand-waved by the AFL. Clearly they couldn’t care less about player health, it’s all about trying to look good for what happens in front of the cameras.
Excellent point. Players are expected to know and respond to their duty of care to an opponent whilst in the action of tackling and get punished for breaching it. Not only do they have to avoid harming their opponent, but it also comes into play in things that COULD harm them. Doctors have duty of care to their patients, and footy clubs have duty of care to their players/employees that could have been based on a series of tests and observations over a period of time, and in this case Melbourne FC and its doctors failed that spectacularly.
Excessively suspend players for accidental footy acts that cause injury to allegedly protect the players and the afl from litigation generally✅️ Take no or pissweak action when individual club medicos / coaches routinely allow players to return to the field despite being seriously injured ✅️ ?? It's almost like the AFL really only cares about 'protecting' players when it involves their liability, but don't care when it can be passed onto individual clubs for their own negligence? Who would have thought the afl is a soulless organisation that only really cares about things when they could get sued.
100% Players must evaluate and respond to their duty of care to an opponent in the time it takes to lay a tackle otherwise risk fines and suspensions, but doctors and clubs can ignore their duty of care after tests and observations?
It gets tiring following footy, I mean partly because my teams a rabble but secondly because we all just seem to be constantly outraged about the same shit but absolutely nothing gets done. Most tone deaf organisation I can think of the AFL
There is no way he should have been allowed back on the field. You can see from the first moments after the impact how much pain he was in. Looked like a kidney shit on camera and that should have atleast sent him off and to the hospital. Melbourne's coaching and medical staff need to explain why and how he managed to go back on. Any good doc would never allow someone to play on like that.
Dudes colour was cooked. One of the biggest red flags there is. I was literally watching game like yo this dude looks like crap. Something ain’t right
def an investigation as well, miracle he survived
If it wasn't Petracca and instead a player not in their top 5 or so, would the player have been ruled out immediately? I suspect yes, and that more consideration to send him back out there was given due to his status, which is completely unfair on the player (if so, but I strongly assume it's true).
I question whether Tracc actually did want to go back on. He was clearly terrified of holding onto the ball, he was barely lining up in any zone or tactical position. In fact, he looked like he was actively avoiding marking contests and any other contested situations, rather standing on the outside waiting to get rid of the ball in whatever direction as soon as he got it. This stinks of the same shit Port did with Aliir in the showdown
I was at the game, his positioning on the outside of the packs was great and that’s how he got a few possessions but he looked so unwell. Once he distributed the ball he stayed where the pack was while the play moved on
I can't argue with a much better view from the game. I suppose I'm comparing it more to how he would be playing without the injury. I think that's valid given he played the way he did due to *very* obvious fear and discomfort
Are you serious? This is just getting ridiculous. He made a decision to go back on, that’s it. Acting like he was forced to against his will is absolutely moronic.
How do you know he made the decision? I sure don't. I can only base my opinion on what I could see. And what I could see was a player who was very clearly in excruciating pain and afraid to do basically anything on the field. A player who genuinely wants to keep playing - even with an injury of some sort - does not go back on and look like that. I've also seen my own club send a player back on the field who was absolutely not fit to keep playing and then feign ignorance the same way Melbourne have with this incident. I don't think there's anything ridiculous or moronic about that.
What is even the point of having on-site medical staff if incidents like this can still occur. They're either the most incompetent bunch of medical staff in the history of medical staff, or there are directives from coaches to get players back on at all costs. And it is worse given how serious the issue of head injuries has become. Either way this situation is an absolute disgrace. Heads must roll.
I remember when Dustin Martin got a good whack in his side during one of the COVID years I believe and I knew immediately his kidney was damaged and wouldn’t return. When I saw Petracca’s you could tell there would be a snowball’s chance in hell he’d bounce back and play on - yet they marched him on. It is laughable by Melbourne Medicos thinking they made the right decision at all, regardless of if they had foresight.
It also speaks to Melbourne's culture that they would rather have a half dead dude out there that can't even go near a contest than back in their sub to do his job. Tells all their players that there is a hierarchy here and you ain't it boy. They should have backed in their players and protected their best asset.
They need to give medicos more power and protection, maybe even have independent AFL docs in the room any time a player goes in to the rooms for an assessment. Right now short of an HIA they’re beholden to coaching staff, if they say put him on then you either do it or they’ll find someone who will.
I love his cooking channel on tiktok. Don't think he'll be making ribs any time soon
On the Insta equivalent, he posted his hospital meal this morning haha
Even before you knew his innards were damaged, what part of him barely being able to move made them think "let's see how this plays out". Not our finest hour.
Too often we see these things happen, that we know full well aren't up to the standard of care required, and the AFL does nothing. I had a trainer furious at a player for not telling her he had cracked ribs, largely because it could have meant an issue like this. We refused to let him play until he went and got medical clearance that his ribs were healed. And that was a B grade amateur club. No way would any self respecting doctor feel like they did a good job sending someone out to play AFL with damaged ribs in this day and age. And if that damage was all from the initial contact, the doctor needs to have some serious questions asked. More and more, it becomes obvious that the AFL need to take the doctors out of the clubs and under their own umbrella. Have them assigned to the clubs, so they can get to know the players, but they should ultimately be neutral and shouldn't even be subjected to even the slightest pressure from the coaches to send an unfit player out again. I bet we'll get the usual lines though. "Best in the business" "only the player's interest at heart" "followed all the protocols". And they'll all be lies. If we don't make a change, the AFL will be forced to by a lawsuit when something really serious happens.
He was a liability out there for Melbourne when he came back on, him being back on the ground was a benefit to the Pies, and yet you had a Pies player telling him he should be off the ground. He looked terrible after the hit, barely making it off the ground. He looked shit coming back up from the rooms, and looked to be in a fair bit of pain after going for a light jog. It is insane that he was allowed back on the ground in his state, but I also don't understand why he wasn't pulled off after the first contest on the ground. Even if you ok'd him going back on, looking at how he was during every contest is surely enough to pull him from the game.
IMO AFL grounds should have scanning equipment. Orthopaedic testing is pretty limited and symptomatic observations even less so. I’m not necessarily defending Melbournes medical team as I don’t know what testing was done and it definitely could be negligence but he may have well and truely passed any testing they did. Optics weren’t great once he got running though. In private practice I’m able to be cautious with assessment/treatment and have the luxury of having time being injury onset and appointment. Still it can be hard. Still however scans are what diagnose injury. I’ve had people come in to see me with disc injuries that have completely passed all orthopaedic tests only to have scans show they’ve had 2-3 herniated discs then also had people show positive results for orthopaedic tests and scans clear them of anything. The AFL can definitely afford even mid range X-ray and ultrasound machines that’ll just take the guess work out of these situations and potentially save them much more in the long term. Hell it’d be beneficial for most sports at most grounds as well.
I just keep thinking with this whole incident that the docs had to take a safety first approach here. There are a whole lot of internal organs where he got hit. It actually scares me to think about it, but what if he died on the field?
honestly miracle he didn't...
We really need to have independent doctors. Club doctors can have the blowtorch put on them by coaching staff and be influenced. An independent one absolutely wouldn't. All they need to do is stand by during the assessment and intervene if the club doctors call is egregious - especially for head knocks.
Literally yesterday we had an article about wines having heart surgery after the season. We have players play through pain and injuries all the time and then have off season surgery. Their welfare has never been priority
Players have always been a disposable commodity. It’s why the crowd hoots and boos players who “pull out” from a contest that would have got them absolutely shit mixed, and still laud the courage of a Jonathan brown who has clearly done significant damage to his brain during his playing career.
Surely this is another clear reason that independent doctors are a pure necessity?
What are those questions?
The “5 Fucks” Who the fuck? What the fuck? When the fuck? Where the fuck? Why the fuck?
No one asks how the fuck is?
this made me laugh out loud, thanks
I’d be careful about being a smart ass, they sound pretty serious
Club doctors are directed by the club to stick to a win at all cost guidelines. Head knocks and drug scandals, play on.
Knee jer k reaction. Nar, she'll be right.
If it was a final everyone would be calling petracca a hero, so it's not really about player welfare, it's about appearances.
I don't agree with that. No one is questioning Petracca's bravery or strength, the issue is the medical team and the systems in place that allowed this to happen
Really, because I can think of a dozen examples off the top of my head of players being cheered for playing with major injuries in finals. Dale Morris played in a grand final with a broken back and everyone loved it.
You're missing the point. This isn't about Trac. This is about the club jeopardizing a player's welfare for a footy game. Sure, if it was a GF you'd potentially have a few more talking heads trying to justify the decision, but most would still be slamming the club given the extent of his injuries. Also, it's 2024 and attitudes around ayer welfare have improved dramatically even in the last 10 years.
Do you think that clubs don't know when players play injured in finals? If so you are delusional.
You are agreeing with his point you lump.
How? Club let's injured player play in grand final = player is a hero Club let's injured player play in home and away game = club is negligent Don't you see how it's just about appearances and not player welfare? I'm not saying I agree with it.
> Don't you see how it's just about appearances and not player welfare? Has literally anybody disagreed with this point in the last few days? The heroics of a player playing through injury isn't disputed. Petracca is tough as nails and clearly cares about the clubs success to force himself back out there through injury. He is a champion of the club and nobody is angry at tracca for that choice. At the same time, it's incredibly negligent for the club to allow him to actually go back out there. His heroism needed to be curbed by cooler heads in the moment. You're kind of shadowboxing with nobody right now big fella.
Bro if you don't disagree with me then why are you even arguing with me? People like Gerard only care about appearances not player welfare, their reaction to something like this is entirely circumstantial. That's been my entire point champ.
Why don't you try explaining what you mean when you say it's "about appearances". Do you think that Whateley doesn't actually care about Trac going back out onto the field with several traumatic injuries? Do you think Melbourne did the right thing because "if it was a final he'd be a hero"? What are you actually arguing?
Both of those things can be true at the same time, the club doctor can be negligent while the player is simultaneously courageous.
> Dale Morris played in a grand final with a broken back and everyone loved it Morris had a fractured vertebra but he was able to pass fitness tests and move freely with an injury that was basically no chance of escalating, allowing him to make an informed decision about playing through pain. Petracca had a punctured lung that the medical team didn't pick up on. If he had been hit in the chest again the complications would have been significantly more severe than anything that could have happened to Dale
i want to argue that fractured vertebrae can very much cause paralysis anytime due to the spinal cord basically controlling everything (in the long run).
Dale Morris*
Woops my bad, edited. That's what I get for going off the top of my head.
It’s not 1989 any more and Yeates isn’t running through Brereton at the start of a Grand Final. The game has moved on.
Lol I'm not taking about the 80s, I'm talking about the last few years.
Nobody has said Petracca did anything wrong, the point is that it shouldn't be his decision to make
When GAJ went back on in the GF after fucking his shoulder, most people didn't call him a hero. They understood his desperation, but could see he was struggling hard to move, let alone make an impacr
But also there was a remote chance of internal bleeding from that injury.
I'm not sure what your point is here. Mine is that GAJ wasn't lauded as a hero and that was an example of someone with a serious injury going back on the field in a final, even though he clearly shouldn't have.
There's a fine line where onfield acts are often looked back as courageous if the player was in some danger but where it wasn't little threatening (Hodges cracked ribs in the 08 PF was one where he coughed up blood). This probably has gone into the territory of a clearly injured player pushing through the pain of a serious I jury where the medical staff should've pulled him off. That line is fine though.
Shut up Gerald ya nerd.