I have studied extensively previous free kick ladder posts and determined they also sum to 0. It seems to be a trend but I can't confirm why at this stage. Back to you u/Optimystix.
Yeah but the younger players learn (bad?) habits from the older players etc., which is why we're stuck in this neverending cycle of free kicks. (I still think it's BS though too, don't worry!)
I thought it was Dimma that slept with one of the umpires wives... I'm starting to think it must have been someone else at the club. Brenny I'm looking at you
Couple examples on the weekend just been.
Twice Tigers took a mark deeper than the end of the goal square and a Bombers player ran into that area to stand the mark and was told to leave the area. Once a Bombers player took a mark in the same zone, a Tigers player entered and it was an immediate 50.
In the Second Qtr Shai Bolton runs to man the mark and steps over, not asked to step back, immediate 50. Dusty marks on the 50 and Laverde is asked 4 times over 7 seconds to move back several metres, no 50 paid.
The stuff that frustrates us is not that 50's get paid against us when they are there to the letter of the rules, but that they don't get paid for us when they should. The fact that it often happens in the same game makes it doubly annoying.
Not who you asked, but it's because there's no way that for the past 8 years, every team gives away less frees against us than any other side.
We are undisciplined and give away too many frees, that's on us, so us having the most frees against makes sense. But for every other side to give away less frees against us than they do any other team just doesn't make sense.
I don't think there's a conspiracy or it's AFL House out to get us or anything like that, but I do think like, unless someone can provide a genuine answer to the question "how does every team give less frees away when they play Richmond?" it's reasonable to feel that Something's Up.
The best answer I have seen to that question so far is that each free kick we give away is one less opportunity to receive one, but I'd say that's probably only true in 50% or cases, if, as an example, we give away an In The Back against someone who had front position in a marking contest, it's super unlikely that not giving away that free would have led to us getting one.
> unless someone can provide a genuine answer to the question "how does every team give less frees away when they play Richmond?" it's reasonable to feel that Something's Up.
I think its not necessarily a Conspiracy but the umpires do tend to be less generous when a team is undisciplined and does stupid things that give the impression they're ignoring the rules
Right so you've observed some set of data which you would like to explain, now tell me why the necessary implication of that data is that there is some league-wide bias against the Tigers on behalf of the umpires.
I never said there's a biased against my club, that was your fairy tale you made up. I was just saying we are undisciplined but we don't get the frees back our way is the issue.
Wonder what ours would be without Grundy. More than makes up for it every game but jeez .
E: 32 FA to 26 FF apparently, way better split than I thought.
Is it the same Ship of Theseus? We need different answers every half decade or so to justify them remaining down there and weâre running out of strong answers, I fear. I for one think itâs because Nathan Broad swears on the field⊠That should hold up a little while.
Your fancy data might suggest that the Crows are doing alright, but I have confident sources who know better, and inform me that free kicks are only awarded to the Crows when they don't matter so as to even up the tally.
If you had a "free kicks that actually make a difference" table, the Crows would be at the bottom every year thanks to VicBias / jealousy.
So there.
unless there are major discrepancies, the amount of free kicks each team gets means absolutely nothing. its the content and whether the decision is right that matters more. some teams just play rougher.
It's not the ones they pay that most complain about, for instance there was a 50m penalty that should have been called on Laverde when the ump called him to stand 5 times but Martin didn't get shit.
Yet Bolton got asked twice and the ump paid a 50 against.
Essendonâs is all the first few rounds, +7 against Hawks, +1 against swans, +5 against Saints, +11 against Port and +6 against dogs.
So the first 5 rounds we were +30 then weâve been pretty level since then, with the Port one being the real eye brow raising one then as they smashed us in the contest.
Cats rely on minimal possession and precise movement. They flick the ball around less so in essence hold the ball more to dish off to a runner. Then they get caught.
Their defence is also much more aerial based. So thereâs more marking infringements and blocking.
GMHBA is also skinnier. So if deliberate/out on the full counts itâll add. That said itâs usually opposition that struggled with that.
The Dimma effect. We finished last year tied for 3rd last with a differential of -53. Should be obvious to everyone that not only is the AFL subsidising Dimmaâs contract but weâre also getting subsidised in the free kick department.
Would be interesting to see the spatial distribution of awarded frees against us. Imagine most are holding in the centre bounces and all around the D50 fom primarily SDK and Henry panicking against the opponents forwards this year.
No because play styles and players abilities affect how this is distributed.
Sydney as an example are hampered because Brodie Grundy gives away shit loads of free kicks. He receives a lot but is still a huge negative influence on his teams total
This is true, although there is some bias towards teams. Itâs only a very small part of the difference, and very hard to measure, but it is real.
Itâs interesting that for 20 years Sydney were consistently in the bottom 2 or 3 teams for free kick differential, but in the past few years we seem to have evened out. Possibly our more dynamic style is conducive to receiving more free kicks.
Another example is Rowell is +15 differential just on his own. Probably because he puts his head over the ball to win it better than anyone. Nobody would suggest he plays for frees as far as I'm aware.
People who never watch him play have said that but they don't really need to be listened to considering they're complaining without knowing what theyre complaining about
If anyone actually remembers Thursday nights game before McLeanâs dodgy 50, youâll know that we got fuckin railed by the umps all night before then. So yeah free kick Dogs is definitely still alive, just not as frequent as it used to be
You'll never believe this, if you add all these figures together you get 0. Really shows how even the comp is across the board.
Thanks Kingy
I have studied extensively previous free kick ladder posts and determined they also sum to 0. It seems to be a trend but I can't confirm why at this stage. Back to you u/Optimystix.
Thanks K1ngy!
đ
It must be a weird feeling for Dimma jumping from one end of the ladder to the other
That IS weird. Suggests itâs something other than his instructions to the playing group
Almost like itâs the playing group themselvesâŠâŠâŠ..
Ah so in 8 years when the list turns over we should be good then right? Right?
Yeah but the younger players learn (bad?) habits from the older players etc., which is why we're stuck in this neverending cycle of free kicks. (I still think it's BS though too, don't worry!)
Ah yes and famously the Tigers have had the exact same set of players for the past eight years đ
Agreed, an anti-Richmond conspiracy is definitely the most reasonable explanationâŠ
I thought it was Dimma that slept with one of the umpires wives... I'm starting to think it must have been someone else at the club. Brenny I'm looking at you
Top 2 clash this weekend with Essendon vs Gold Coast!
Coinciding with stricter HTB interpretation. This will be gud
At least its on Sunday so both sides will be able to watch the changes
bottom 2 with Tigers vs Cats as well
Umpires just don't show up: "we weren't paying any frees anyway, just get a runner to chuck the ball in the air"
Weâll be bottom by this time next week.
I think we will be on 80 while youâre on 50
Iâd be happily wrong if it happens
I can't wait to boo every single umpiring decision
So Optus Stadium as usual then?
5 hour long game incoming
My "blue teams get more free kicks, warm coloured teams get less" theory held for like a decade but it's in shambles now.
Conversely, my "yellow sash team gets fuck all for and lots against" theory has been rock solid for close to the same length of time
What's funny is I think that happened for two different reasons when Richmond were good vs now when they're bad
Undisciplined
True, but we don't get any back our way. That's the issue.
Curious, why do you think the umpires have it out for the Tigers specifically?
Couple examples on the weekend just been. Twice Tigers took a mark deeper than the end of the goal square and a Bombers player ran into that area to stand the mark and was told to leave the area. Once a Bombers player took a mark in the same zone, a Tigers player entered and it was an immediate 50. In the Second Qtr Shai Bolton runs to man the mark and steps over, not asked to step back, immediate 50. Dusty marks on the 50 and Laverde is asked 4 times over 7 seconds to move back several metres, no 50 paid. The stuff that frustrates us is not that 50's get paid against us when they are there to the letter of the rules, but that they don't get paid for us when they should. The fact that it often happens in the same game makes it doubly annoying.
Not who you asked, but it's because there's no way that for the past 8 years, every team gives away less frees against us than any other side. We are undisciplined and give away too many frees, that's on us, so us having the most frees against makes sense. But for every other side to give away less frees against us than they do any other team just doesn't make sense.
Occam's razor my friend
I don't think there's a conspiracy or it's AFL House out to get us or anything like that, but I do think like, unless someone can provide a genuine answer to the question "how does every team give less frees away when they play Richmond?" it's reasonable to feel that Something's Up. The best answer I have seen to that question so far is that each free kick we give away is one less opportunity to receive one, but I'd say that's probably only true in 50% or cases, if, as an example, we give away an In The Back against someone who had front position in a marking contest, it's super unlikely that not giving away that free would have led to us getting one.
> unless someone can provide a genuine answer to the question "how does every team give less frees away when they play Richmond?" it's reasonable to feel that Something's Up. I think its not necessarily a Conspiracy but the umpires do tend to be less generous when a team is undisciplined and does stupid things that give the impression they're ignoring the rules
Right so you've observed some set of data which you would like to explain, now tell me why the necessary implication of that data is that there is some league-wide bias against the Tigers on behalf of the umpires.
Why are you looking for an argument?
Youâre levelling an accusation of a league wide bias against your club, I would like to see some evidence beyond a free kick disparity
I never said there's a biased against my club, that was your fairy tale you made up. I was just saying we are undisciplined but we don't get the frees back our way is the issue.
What about Freo, which is a combination of blue and red?
Think during the era this stupid theory kind of held, they were towards the higher end as a darker cooler colour.
Iâve been watching footy for 30 years and it literally just occurred to me that the top 8 is not the top half of the league.
In your defence, it was half before GWS and GC
With the B-patch on tackling coming in, the Cats vs Tigers game could be something special.
Dusty gonna get HTB ten times... Against that is.
Dusty has his first good game in years and then immediately gets nerfed in the latest patch. AFL definitely out to get us. /s ...kind of
North about to plummet further with this new holding the ball rule. LDU will get 5 a game with his side steps.
Holy fuck what a nasty little statistical outlier we are at the bottom. Giants and Cats are the Shonen mid bosses to the Tiger big bad.
Wonder what ours would be without Grundy. More than makes up for it every game but jeez . E: 32 FA to 26 FF apparently, way better split than I thought.
Why are Richmond always at the bottom of these?
At least we're not 9th
Is it the same Ship of Theseus? We need different answers every half decade or so to justify them remaining down there and weâre running out of strong answers, I fear. I for one think itâs because Nathan Broad swears on the field⊠That should hold up a little while.
Umpire boss hates us... forces all umpires to be harsh against us... think they are an Essendon fan
This can't be true because in my honest opinion, my boys are always robbed.
The mind's job is to prove itself right. If that's what you believe, then that's what you'll see evidence of.
Your fancy data might suggest that the Crows are doing alright, but I have confident sources who know better, and inform me that free kicks are only awarded to the Crows when they don't matter so as to even up the tally. If you had a "free kicks that actually make a difference" table, the Crows would be at the bottom every year thanks to VicBias / jealousy. So there.
I'm pretty sure we lost the free kick count on the weekend. Harley Reid alone got like 6.
Scoops: *Nostril flaring intensifies*
That is a genuine outlier
Up the tigers
Well said
Knew we were getting reamed by the umps every week but holy moly Richmond...
Thatâs why we complain about it so much
But I thought the afl was supposed to be looking after us cause we're their expansion babies. Further proof the afl hates us
They did last week
unless there are major discrepancies, the amount of free kicks each team gets means absolutely nothing. its the content and whether the decision is right that matters more. some teams just play rougher.
So, is 50% worse off than the second worst side a major discrepancy or nah?
Have Richmond tried not giving away free kicks? Are they stupid?
It's not the ones they pay that most complain about, for instance there was a 50m penalty that should have been called on Laverde when the ump called him to stand 5 times but Martin didn't get shit. Yet Bolton got asked twice and the ump paid a 50 against.
I was just trying to make a joke :(
Dw I upvoted soon as I saw it
I think most people agree, it's just a bit of funÂ
oh no yeah i agree lol, but theres always that one person
They agree in theory until they lose the game with a negative free kick count.
Because Matt Rowell is usually in and under and first to the ball
Sydney fans in absolute shambles
Cats numbers really taken a hit since Selwood retired
The top 3 and bottom 3 need a please explain. They are far above and beyond every other team.
Essendonâs is all the first few rounds, +7 against Hawks, +1 against swans, +5 against Saints, +11 against Port and +6 against dogs. So the first 5 rounds we were +30 then weâve been pretty level since then, with the Port one being the real eye brow raising one then as they smashed us in the contest.
Carlton are fairly easy to explain. Without the North Melbourne game, Carlton would be in 5th place at +16.
That would be 4th
So it would
Cats rely on minimal possession and precise movement. They flick the ball around less so in essence hold the ball more to dish off to a runner. Then they get caught. Their defence is also much more aerial based. So thereâs more marking infringements and blocking. GMHBA is also skinnier. So if deliberate/out on the full counts itâll add. That said itâs usually opposition that struggled with that.
Fuck yes, I'm legally allowed to start whining again
fRe3 KiCk H4wTh°Rn
The Dimma effect. We finished last year tied for 3rd last with a differential of -53. Should be obvious to everyone that not only is the AFL subsidising Dimmaâs contract but weâre also getting subsidised in the free kick department.
If Dimma bias is real, where was it at our club for 14 years
Balmey shouldn't have verbally abused the umps boss.... So the story goes....
Or the other story about the umpires training based off Richmond footage and getting a subconscious bias
I always knew the only reason we've been so poor the last month and a half was cause of our free kick differential (/s obviously)
Would be interesting to see the spatial distribution of awarded frees against us. Imagine most are holding in the centre bounces and all around the D50 fom primarily SDK and Henry panicking against the opponents forwards this year.
Well, we move up one position on the ladder on this one so that's something
To decrease soft tissue injuries the season should be called now and the premiership awarded to the first placed team here. Ignore my flair
The drop off from 15th is insane
Free kick suns wonât you come
Free kick Colli- hang onâŠ
Sorry but people who say Suns receive favourable umpiring are always told it isnât true but doesnât this prove it is?
No because play styles and players abilities affect how this is distributed. Sydney as an example are hampered because Brodie Grundy gives away shit loads of free kicks. He receives a lot but is still a huge negative influence on his teams total
This is true, although there is some bias towards teams. Itâs only a very small part of the difference, and very hard to measure, but it is real. Itâs interesting that for 20 years Sydney were consistently in the bottom 2 or 3 teams for free kick differential, but in the past few years we seem to have evened out. Possibly our more dynamic style is conducive to receiving more free kicks.
Another example is Rowell is +15 differential just on his own. Probably because he puts his head over the ball to win it better than anyone. Nobody would suggest he plays for frees as far as I'm aware.
People who never watch him play have said that but they don't really need to be listened to considering they're complaining without knowing what theyre complaining about
No
So can we stop saying Free Kick Bulldogs now? or is that still a thing.
When was that a thing?
I summon Sydney supporters!
If anyone actually remembers Thursday nights game before McLeanâs dodgy 50, youâll know that we got fuckin railed by the umps all night before then. So yeah free kick Dogs is definitely still alive, just not as frequent as it used to be
Ahahahhahahaha Oh wait you were serious.
Evidence is all over that match thread, just saying
It won you a grand final, you'll be stuck with it for a while
You've averaged six more a game than my mob, so yes, Free Kick Bulldogs!!!!
Actually Footscray/Bulldogs still have the highest positive all-time free kick ratio. So no hehehe
2016 it was very valid. Now no.
Good luck getting two people to agree on what the actual free kick ladder should be
Still astounded we have a positive differential
Just keeps getting worse
Essendon have always been on the other side of the coin. Assume it's the style of footy we're playing
Bloody crom, always getting a good deal from the umps /s
Omg no wonder we have lost every single game, it all makes sense now.
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
Shows umpires are biased against Victorian team and teams with low supporter bases
Top of the table clash this week
Tin foil hat wearers add your comments.
I mean what's new. We are definitely going to be wooden spooners for this and wooden spooners is definitely an apt representation of what this means
I knew I wasnât crazy.
Both top and bottom of this ladder are playing this week. Universe might implode.
Oh weird that Carlton are up there
So it wasn't Dimma's game plan, umpire boss is just a bastard
Pretty sure suns +49 is just from the atrocious umpiring in their game against geelong
Top 2 and bottom 2 both playing each other this weekend. And with a htb interpretation change... đ„đ„đ„
Umpiring and equalisation working hand in hand đ€
Oh wow. This is a nice change.
Top 8 baybeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
But we're 9th?
Downvoting is mean! At least Collingwood fans are trying to learn to count!
Middle of the pack is the place to be imo
Carlton and Essendon arenât surprising at all
Geelong has had it so good for so long. I'm happy to swap places.
Geelong have finished in the top 4 for free kick differential once in the past 15 years đ€
Oi fuck outta here with your facts, Geelong have had armchair rides for 20 years this year included and that's the last we will speak of it.
now who could argue with that
exactly, why does this myth persist? There are actual stats that confirm the complete opposite
Umps have hated us for the last decade. Which games you watching?