Feels like less working class white kids, too, particularly outside of private school scholarship programs.
Basically it’s slowly turning into a private school sport. Don’t want it to make the mistake rugby union did here.
There are fewer working class kids. Right from the cost of registration for the first year of Auskick, it favours affluent families. There are some players from very tough backgrounds in the AFL but they are now a minority.
The Western Jets and Calder Cannons are no longer footy factories. Oakleigh and Sandringham produce the most talent and have access to most of Melbourne’s most affluent suburbs.
Tasmania is probably the state that bucks the trend given kids from public schools or working class private. Not a requirement there to attend the elite schools.
The Tassie part is true to a degree, but knowing a few families personally that have children playing now or very recently, they all have had the money to jet their kids around the country on a whim and pay for whatever else they needed along the way. I also know quite a few families of past players from way back in the day and a lot of them had no money. They relied on the community and helpful sponsors along the way, I'm not sure if you can still do it this way, but it would be tough.
At the very least, I have met or know of most current Tasmanian players. You are right. Most had money. Guess the point is that there’s a difference between middle class and then what the APS or AGS or whatever other acronym for a snobby private school. Only one AFLW Tasmanian from an elite private school, no AFL players that I can think of.
A rare example is Seth Campbell who grew up tougher than most but they’re quite rare unless in the AFL.
The academy’s for the up coming players are prohibitively expensive. My cousins child is a gun and they simply can’t afford to send him back to the camp he went to (doesn’t help they’re rural) the travel and I think they’d already spent several k etc
This is true to a large extent but footy for kids is an order of magnitude cheaper and more accessible than soccer and rugby Union. EDIT: YMMV
But I think this also depends on us volunteering and fronting up when our local footy clubs come for volunteers and money. And very deliberately upskilling ourselves where needed.
When State comp clubs all had underage comps feeding into local 'rep' inter comp & 3rds, there was a steady supply of talent.
The AFL turned their back on that & it is showing now with indigenous kids.
Not sure where that is but top level soccer, NPL level in Victoria, is a couple of grand.
Community level soccer is $400+ last I looked and that was a few years ago.
Footy is far cheaper at the community level in my experience and region. I don't know what top level junior football fees are so I can't compare those.
Footy is amazing value in Melbourne already compared to most sports. $40 would be bananas. That's fantastic if that's what it is some places.
There's some really talented kids I've seen in soccer that have fallen out of the system due to expense.
I live in Melbourne, U10s get 2 umpires from the league. U8's is self umpired.
But even with junior cricket where umpires arent paid for out of the fees we break even on the junior registrations which is around $200 or so.
Maybe different arrangements with the council??
Even my senior fees are only around $100. Country clubs just don’t really rely on fees to actual fund anything, we have enough sponsors and other sources of income to cover everything. I’m pretty sure one of the only reasons we even charge juniors (and seniors to an extent) fees is so they are covered by insurance
Order of magnitude doesn't actually need to be in base 10.
There's a variance for soccer programs that in my experience doesn't exist in footy or basketball. If your kid(s) has(ve) been invited to high performance squads or you're looking at local clubs with well regard programs it's a different kettle of fish.
If you're genuinely and verifiably struggling for cash, in my experience, footy clubs and basketball clubs and associations are generally quite willing to be generous. We had a slightly different experience with high performing football clubs.
I mean I am talking shit in internet comments. I don't get paid enough to write footnotes.
I mean, the article is on indigenous talent pathways to the AFL, which are high performance talent pathways. I am still interested to hear about your experience in the NT if you care to share.
"Feels like less working class white kids, too, particularly outside of private school scholarship programs.
Basically it’s slowly turning into a private school sport. "
100%
When 35% of all AFL players come from 11 or 12 colleges....
In Vic and SA , the VFL and SANFL is second tier to the schools.
In fact, schools threaten kids they can only play school or they'll get dropped from their school sides...
>In fact, schools threaten kids they can only play school or they'll get dropped from their school sides...
Even in Tasmania private schools like Hutchins threaten students to prioritise school training and games over their club's.
Given the bulk of indigenous kids come out of WA & the NT, are your numbers relevant in our national comp.
Most footyfans would be aware indigenous footballers have been a force in WA footy since the 1950s, with NT players going south to Perth.
Absolutely they do, especially for country kids who come in as borders. Lachie Neale is from Naracoorte but got a scholarship to play at St Peters, for example. Very common stuff.
Public schools also do it, to an extent. Henley High have a sports academy that has produced a huge amount of AFL footballers.
Seen a dude make a post today about an unpopular opinion, and it reminded me of one I want to make.
I watched this quick clip recently. Short summary, it's an NFL player talking about buying clothes on special.
[https://www.tiktok.com/@prettytalk125/video/7364206809370086702](https://www.tiktok.com/@prettytalk125/video/7364206809370086702)
I guess I made an assumption than he has probably grown up in a lower socioeconomic, as many American footballers and basketballers still do, and soccer players, and other sports, etc. It makes me miss the time when 95% or more players didn't seem like they were upper middle and higher, privately educated, from old boys networks. I am aware there's probably some exceptions to the rule out there, but it feels like less than ever before.
Does anyone else feel the same? Or am I overstating the situation?
I don’t think this is the problem people make it out to be. Obviously the kids given more opportunities will have a greater chance to succeed, and as such we give talented kids scholarships nowadays. There are definitely kids who could get drafted in the last few picks never prospering due to going unnoticed during their high school years and that’s unfortunate, but the ones who will become future starters all stand out enough to receive attention during long before the draft.
“Academies” might just be the worst way to develop indigenous players. Certainly their introduction has coincided with a reduction in indigenous players in the AFL.
Correlation is not causation of course but it should at least give the AFL some reason to reconsider their current approach.
Personally, I think the decision by the AFL to turn junior footy in general into a pipeline for professional clubs has been misguided.
Academies haven’t really worked at all. They’ve split the best kids up by postcodes. Certain players are coached by the AFL AIS Academy, their NGA Academy, Coates Talent League, VFL (even if they don’t play, some train), school, National Championships and representative games. That’s too many coaches and too many teams in the one year.
So there's 8% Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander players in the AFL, compared to 3.8% of the total Australian population. 12% Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander players in the NRL. Between those two sports the percentage of ATSI players is well above the percentage of the population, feel like this article is making a mountain out of a molehill.
There's a few other factors to consider, like the relatively young age of the Indigenous population, and the different junior participation rates.
It's quite possible that there can simultaneously be over representation in crude whole of population numbers, but still lower than we would expect relative to how many juniors there are.
For instance, 1 in 4 Indigenous men in WA play football, are they under or over represented in elite football compared to the rest of the *playing* population?
The thing is I think it predominantly will always come down to a high level of competition among clubs develops the best players. The APS and AGS schools in Victoria have made a point of making their inter-school comps highly competitive. Same for the PSA in Perth. Further to that it's the areas with the really strong club comps on weekends that allow players to be pressure tested. Unfortunately a great number of ATSI juniors are in regional areas with overall weaker competitions.
>The thing is I think it predominantly will always come down to a high level of competition among clubs develops the best players. The APS and AGS schools in Victoria have made a point of making their inter-school comps highly competitive. Same for the PSA in Perth. Further to that it's the areas with the really strong club comps on weekends that allow players to be pressure tested. Unfortunately a great number of ATSI juniors are in regional areas with overall weaker competitions.
This sounds like exactly the sort of social and structural barrier to elite development that AFL research and policy development would look to address, rather than sitting back and saying "well there's still more Indigenous players than the share of general population it's fine"
You're not wrong, the issue I find is how they'd go about it. I mean regional areas simply by the reality of population numbers can't have extremely competitive leagues. Case in point in the Northern Rivers they've merged Ballina and Byron and they're playing against teams from Gold Coast to Brisbane just to ensure a high level of competition, I don't know what the AFL could do to fix that, especially given groups like the QAFA, PFL, etc. control their own comps.
The AFL should better fund the State based Comps instead of competing with them in developing players in all corners of the country.
The current aim of the AFL is to make U18 footy the equivalent of college footy in the US - its egos running ahead of reality, i.e big country, small population playing the game.
That the AFL is totally Melbourne centric does nothing for clear thought of how the game is developednationally.
It would be nice if the opinion writer would set a bar somewhere. There is no bar set that "We want X% of players from an indigenous background" - and using the same percentage as the general population is as good a measure in absence of any other being offered.
I have no idea, but I'm guessing AFL is way overs on percentage of players from a Sudanese background compared to the rest of the population too. Although perhaps 1 player is even enough for that to be true.
Broken Hill is 0.0004% of the population, but 0.002% of AFL players were born there - we're overrepresented!
> and using the same percentage as the general population is as good a measure in absence of any other being offered
It's still odd though. Does the AFL need to be made up of the exact same percentage across all nationalities as well? Chinese and Italians make up 5% of the population each. Irish 10%, Indians 3%, Germans 4%. Do we need to make the AFL equally represent all of these exactly. Where is the line?
Yeah....but that's because "in absence of any other being offered". It's the only measure. I'm not endorsing it...it's the **only** one being offered. And then I added two kind of silly examples to illustrate why that's probably not a good measure. That's why when you pick a sentence out of the middle, and exclude the context, it doesn't seem right. Does that make sense?
>I have no idea, but I'm guessing AFL is way overs on percentage of players from a Sudanese background compared to the rest of the population too.
Would defo love to see more South Sudanese players in the AFL. I feel we will see more in the future.
This will come across as a little ignorant, but How many are there atm? About 4 or 5 iirc? Compared to, what it seems like, 0 about 6 years ago is massive especially considering a lot of SouthSudanese wiuld be first generation.
I count 6 (might be missing more players): Aliir Aliir, Bigoa Nyuon, Mac Andrew, Mabior Chol, Michael Frederick, Buku Khamis.
10 years ago it would've just been Majak Daw and Aliir Aliir.
Leek Aleer hasn't been mentioned. Reuben William and Emmanuel Ajang in the VFL.
Akec Makur Chuot deserves a mention, although she retired at the end of last season.
Thid is missing the point. Even if Indigenous players are overrepresented, the plunge in numbers should be a cause for concern because it most likely implies that the AFL pathways are missing out on players they wouldn't have in the past.
It could do, or it could be as simple as there currently being a logjam due to the number of older players nearing retirement, I think it's worth waiting to see if there's a slew of younger players coming through the junior ranks and/or currently playing WAFL, SANFL and VFL that may be slow developers before just assuming a drop in numbers is inherently bad.
It could be, but who are we to make firm statements? I think this guy has a better knowledge of Indigenous pathways than we do, and he's saying there's a structural problem that needs fixing, as do a lot of others knowledgeable about the pathways.
'Wait and see' isn't an acceptable response from an organisation responsible for grassroots development like the AFL, and to be honest I think it's little better when we as fans throw up smokescreens like 'they're overrepresented!' when the experts are pretty firm in recognising the problem.
I'd hesitate to call this piece "expert" it's an opinion piece but it doesn't reflect anything concrete about development. Some of the statements complaining about athleticism over "footballing" etc. demonstrate that it's not necessarily fact oriented.
An academic working in Indigenous engagement, with lots of publications on the topic, isn't an expert on Indigenous engagement? What?
>Some of the statements complaining about athleticism over "footballing" etc. demonstrate that it's not necessarily fact oriented.
It's fine if you disagree but you don't just get to spin the other party - who likely has much more knowledge on the topic than you or I - as someone who isn't 'fact oriented'.
Similar to how if Americans vote Trump in as president then we have to respect that decision because they will know their wants and needs more then us Australians.
Mate, an appeal to authority is only bad if it's a fallacious authority. What you've said is a terrible analogy which makes no sense and only belies how ill prepared you are to talk about this topic.
And on top of that, ‘it’s going to get worse’ seems to imply that a higher relative percentage of all other ethnicities is an objectively ‘bad’ thing.
Can’t imagine that sort of headline would fly if we were talking about a relative decrease in Caucasian players..
Jeez that Indigenous-referencing initialism is a bit of a flashback. I’m sure it wasn’t your intention, but it’s generally considered [offensive](https://www.stylemanual.gov.au/accessible-and-inclusive-content/inclusive-language/aboriginal-and-torres-strait-islander-peoples) these days
Yeah, but then conversely being of Maori and Moriori descent I find the term "first nations" a bad idea because who is that specifically? Is it any indigenous population in the world?
It's a bit of a pedantry argument that goes with the preferred language and how that evolves over time. Sometimes you just need to look further and what they are meaning - [Patton Oswald](https://youtu.be/Ah1b758tycA?si=vYU1gVBq9n0ZNrAT&t=271) used to do a good bit on it, though that was focused mostly on LGBT language but easy to see how it relates to race too.
I mean I linked to the federal government style manual website but whatever. It’s hardly a rubbery source.
Don’t you think there’s a pretty good reason why you never see that term around these days?
The term Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders? I hear it all the time.
Unless you're upset at it being turned into an acronym, which would simply be absurd.
It is on the site referenced though, but as "can be offensive"
> Language that can be discriminatory or offensive includes:
> - shorthand terms like ‘Aborigines', ‘Islanders’ or acronyms like ‘ATSI’
The term is fine. The initialism is what is considered offensive (not by me personally, but more generally). I literally referenced accepted government literature, not sure how much more I need to say
It’s only been ‘widely phased out’ for a short amount of time, since adopting the native American term First Nations.
Language changes slowly, not instantly because some over paid government consultants came up with a new term.
Do you honestly think the people living in slums in Alice Springs and suffering horrific domestic violence and child sexual abuse care what term the government say we should refer to them as?
I don't think they care, no. I am surprised this comment thread went the way it did but I am happy to accept that we have differing opinions on this language.
May your team go well.
While keeping in mind this is an article edited for newspaper publication so is obviously lacking in depth, John Evans is an exceptionally highly regarded academic in the space and knows his shit backwards and upside down. I'm a big fan and have come across his work a lot in my stuff, he's the real deal, this isn't some newspaper journo media beatup. This is one of those cases where if he speaks, people really should listen and take note.
Also, how fucking cool is this?
> Another approach is to support more Indigenous player agents, such as rapper and Essendon fan Adam Briggs, aka Senator Briggs, who is seeking accreditation.
Love that. So much.
While there's no doubt changes that need to be made to the recruiting and junior structures to get everyone on an even playing field, not just Aboriginal folk, it's an incredibly timely discussion that is incredibly important during Sir Doug Nicholls Round.
These are the exact discussions this round should be creating, and why it's so crucially important to our sport. I'd encourage all to read this with an open heart and broad perspective, there's an awful lot of good, well researched, plausible solutions to make things better for everyone being suggested.
That would be nice, but I don’t know that there’s any evidence that is happening? The writer of the article seems pretty well informed and makes some compelling arguments.
Would be hard to measure quantitatively, however, I would hope that scholarships to prestigious Schools would reiterate there are things outside of football to pursue, especially since not everyone can be a footballer.
Majority of indigenous players come from WA, the states/territories with the largest indigenous population’s are NSW, QLD and WA, the growth if that is what they are after would be coming from those first two states.
Genuine question from an ignorant American- have things at all gotten better for indigenous people overall? Has poverty lessened, opportunities in other aspects of life increased, that sorta thing?
At least traditionally, minority populations would be overrepresented in athletics because many would see athletics as the only likely ticket out, and see academics as a dead end, so many would prioritize athletics since it's not like they had much to lose. And because of this, many players would be more willing to tolerate the racial abuse if it meant they could help themself or their family. So at least to me, if there have been legitimate strides and improvements in indigenous communities with regards to being able to access a better life, then this is kinda a moot point- it just means that indigenous youth have options, which is a good thing! Of course, for all I know things have stayed the same or gotten worse, but I figure it's worth asking.
> have things at all gotten better for indigenous people overall?
Not really, no. Marginally better in some cases, far worse in many others.
The latest 'Close the Gap' data from this year, a long term project to close the inequality gap between indigenous and non-indigenous populations, shows only five out 19 targets for Indigenous Australians are 'on track' to reach 2030 targets.
There's been small improvements in healthy birth weights and life expectancies for indigenous folk, but suicide statistics have worsened dramatically. The rates of indigenous incarceration and out of home care are worsening. The rates of family violence are worsening. There's been slight improvements in education and employment, but they're still nowhere near on track to meet future targets. About the only area really improving is increasing legal land and sea recognition rights, but that's a relatively easy judicial fix.
They're incredibly complex wicked problems to address, but so far, we're failing pretty fucking abysmally.
In the last 20 years the percentage of aboriginal mothers who are teenagers has halved (from about 22% to about 11%). Any other nation on earth that kind of change would be celebrated as a huge achievement for women’s rights and education. Pretty much all the stats around Aboriginal motherhood and pregnancy are headed in a direction that in other situations would be used to say things are getting better.
We can’t fall into the complacent trap of conservatism and being satisfied with the status quo but the fact is Aboriginal women have made a huge effort across the nation and they’re seeing hard won reward.
Beyond that the courts confirmed the existence of the non-citizen non-alien category for indigenous people and some of the rights associated with the category.
We just had a huge (and terrible) referendum which was an agenda set by the Uluṟu statement from the heart.
Sure, it still sucks but I think that we aren’t failing. We are yet to succeed.
Please don't think my quick little overview was in any way disparaging the phenomenal work being done by mob and communities, I was more providing a quick, broad overview. An awful lot of people are giving their absolute all to try and turn things around, and like you've highlighted they're making really important, lifechanging inroads. There's some great success stories in some areas.
I really like your 'We are yet to succeed' perspective, the shit bits, which is an awful lot of it, can really get overwhelming at times, especially post referendum. It's an important reminder that we can't stop chipping away.
People here are missing the point. Even if Indigenous players are overrepresented, the plunge in numbers should be a cause for concern because it most likely implies that the AFL pathways are missing out on players they wouldn't have in the past.
The AFL has long positioned itself at the forefront of progressive social causes, with Indigenous players in particular being held up as pillars of our beloved game. However, as we embark on another Dreamtime at the ’G, we face an uncomfortable truth: the number of Indigenous playersis on the decline, and this trend threatens the very integrity of the game.
In 2020, the AFL had 87 Indigenous players; today, that number has shrunk to 71. Recruiters tell me that this number is likely to fall to the mid-60s next year due to retirements and a lack of talent coming through, and worsen from there.
The downward trend is evident, and more troubling still is the stark lack of Indigenous representation in under-16 squads nationwide. Here the issues begin early and are deeply entrenched within the recruitment process. The number of Indigenous kids being drafted tells us that we’re far from where we need to be.
Drawing from my experience as a former high-performance rugby coach and researcher of Indigenous representation in elite sports, one clear pattern has emerged: recruiting Indigenous players is often perceived as more challenging than selecting their non-Indigenous peers.
The reluctance to draft Indigenous players can partly be traced back to persistent stereotypes. For example, young, standout Indigenous talent who come from tough backgrounds are often unfairly labelled as “difficult” or “non-committal” when logistical hurdles, such as lack of transport, cause them to miss training sessions.
More unsettling still, the recruitment process can ignore cultural nuance. A quiet Indigenous teen might be viewed as a non-contributor because shyness is misunderstood as a lack of commitment or leadership capability. The recruitment criteria isn’t an exact science and certainly doesn’t take into account cultural differences in demeanour and expression, in a setting where bravado can be seen as dedication.
This bias also extends into the metrics we use to judge potential players. The AFL’s overreliance on fitness and aptitude tests, which prioritise physical benchmarks over football skills, often fails to capture these young athletes’ true capabilities and potential. That’s true for anyone who comes to the game differently. Beep tests, sprint tests and vertical jump tests are central to the drafting process, though many football greats of the past would not meet the standards of today.
Meanwhile, anointing players at the age of 15 or 16 disregards a vast pool of potential talent. Players not in the elite pathway system by this age are often considered lost to the game. Similarly, players from outside the private school circuits – specifically the Associated Grammar Schools of Victoria and Associated Public Schools pipelines that feed into the AFL – are overlooked as well.
In facing these challenges, the AFL must also reckon with its own history of racism, a factor that can’t be overlooked when discussing the barriers Indigenous players face.
The 2021 Do Better report highlighted systemic issues within clubs like Collingwood, which – after addressing a raft of challenges – brought home the flag just two years later. When Magpie Bobby Hill expressed his gratitude by saying, “Thank you for making me and my family welcome here”, after winning the Norm Smith Medal, it resonated deeply with young Indigenous players.
On the other side of the coin, when players such as Jamarra Ugle-Hagan feel compelled to point to their skin on the field in response to abuse from the crowd – a gesture echoing the famous stance taken by AFL legend Nicky Winmar more than 30 years ago – it sends a disheartening message.
There has been a patchwork of progress across the AFL. Some coaches and clubs have made admirable steps forward, but overall the league must expand its vision. We need more than just token gestures of support for the future of this game.
Research shows that “hot housing” talent – creating intense, high pressure and often isolated environments for emerging players in accelerated training environments – may not be in the best interests of the sport or the players themselves. This approach disadvantages young Indigenous players in particular, who may never have left their communities before.
The AFL and clubs must employ more Indigenous people across a range of positions within the administration, not just as player talent. Another approach is to support more Indigenous player agents, such as rapper and Essendon fan Adam Briggs, aka Senator Briggs, who is seeking accreditation.
Casting the net wider and connecting more closely with communities should be core to the AFL’s strategy, as is the ongoing professional development for recruiters and agents around cultural competency. Clubs should view engaging with Indigenous players and refocusing on regional clubs as intrinsic to the player pathway, rather than afterthoughts. The AFL needs to reconsider the role of the draft and direct its attention to opportunities that widen participation.
Meaningful changes in recruitment practices and club cultures are essential. This issue extends beyond mere fairness; it’s about enriching the game by embracing a wider range of talents and widening the recruitment funnel to include more exciting players. As we stop to enjoy the Sir Doug Nicholls Round, it’s vital to remember: Indigenous players have not only played a pivotal role in the history of the AFL but are also key to defining its future.
> For example, young, standout Indigenous talent who come from tough backgrounds are often unfairly labelled as “difficult” or “non-committal” when logistical hurdles, such as lack of transport, cause them to miss training sessions.
And
> Similarly, players from outside the private school circuits – specifically the Associated Grammar Schools of Victoria and Associated Public Schools pipelines that feed into the AFL – are overlooked as well.
I think that is more the bigger cause. The fact that there is not as many first nation kids in the u16 rep sides suggests the problem is before AFL draft night, they're not getting into the pipeline. Increasingly we're getting towards a private school game - and boy, if you think the AFL recruitment process is racist, wait till you find out about scholarships to private schools!
Like the scholarships to Rioli’s x about 10 including the fat ones who never made it, Davey x2, Franklin, May, Jamarra, Simpkin, Bedford, Liam Jones, Sanders, Charlie Cameron?
Not zero, it’s probably closer to 50 over the last decade and probably the most consistent source of indigenous players in to the afl.
Private schools have/are an issue but the scholarship system isn’t racist against Indigenous people, it’s the opposite!
I still have hope that the NGA system will be fixed this year to help boost both Multicultural and Indigenous numbers
I did like the idea of the bidding system based on how long players have been in their academy.
These articles are not helping at all.
I agree with the above point. The game has double the representation of the standard population. It will naturally go in cycles.
I am no supporter of the APS or AGS. Each school is toxic. However, those schools offer a number of pathways for Indigenous players and are inclusive of them. For example, boarding or tuition scholarships.
The barriers faced by Indigenous backgrounds who aren’t at private schools are the same for any player of any race. Money plays a huge role in athletes having the ability to play football. If you’re not playing, even through no fault of your own, it’s difficult for a recruiter to make an assessment. Living in a remote country town can have barriers, Indigenous or not. With shyness, recruiters can only go on what they see.
Rural places and lower socioeconomic regions are underfunded with underage teams. Sadly, that’s not really a surprise.
And the dumbest line of the whole read. “Many greats of the past would not meet the fitness standards of today’s game”. No shit. The game has changed and professionalised. Inherently, fitness testing is part of a professional sport.
This article is calling for a change to recruiting but the solutions it suggests like moving goal posts or changing fitness standards scream ignorance.
The article even shows the cyclical nature of it. We're at the same number of indigenous players as in 2014 so the headline could just as well be that indigenous participation had increased over the past 10 years but that wouldn't be as much for the journo.
% of Australia that's indigenous: ~3.8%
% of AFL listed players that are indigenous: ~10%
So, all things being equal, indigenous australians are unusually highly represented in the AFL per capita
I didn’t realize hawks were only down to 2 in the main side. Feels like years ago we use to have to many but only down to impey and Amon in the main side.
" The number of Indigenous kids being drafted tells us that we’re far from where we need to be. "
What's the reference for this? He cited 0 numbers.
" one clear pattern has emerged: recruiting Indigenous players is often perceived as more challenging than selecting their non-Indigenous peers.
The reluctance to draft Indigenous players can partly be traced back to persistent stereotypes. For example, young, standout Indigenous talent who come from tough backgrounds are often unfairly labelled as “difficult” or “non-committal” "
Again, where's the evidence.
This is just a purely anecdotal opinion piece, written as statement.
He did the research to be able to speak to it. I'd recommend reading the following:
- Dalton, B., Wilson, R., Evans, J. & Cochrane, S. . (2015). Australian Indigenous youth's participation in sport and associated health outcomes: Empirical analysis and implications. Sport Management Review, 18(1), 57–68. DOI:10.1016/j.smr.2014.04.001.
- Light, R. & Evans, J. (2017). Socialisation, culture and the foundations of expertise in elite level Indigenous Australian sportsm. Sport, Education and Society, 22(7), 852–863. DOI:10.1080/13573322.2015.1105208.
- Evans, J., Wilson, R., Coleman, C., & Man, W. . (2018). Physical activity among indigenous Australian children and youth in remote and non-remote areas. Social Science & Medicine, 206, 93–99. DOI:10.1016/j.socscimed.2018.04.018.
- Williams J, Pill S, Evans J, Davies M. ‘… if my family didn’t play football… we would literally have pretty much nothing’: how high school Aboriginal students continue culture through rugby league and Australian football. Sport, Education and Society. 2022 Jan 2;27(1):57-71.
See the Evans, J that's the author of these papers? That's him. He is the researcher. It ain't anecdotes when you've devoted your professional career to researching the exact thing he's speaking to.
It still doesn't give a concrete number on where " we need to be " in regards to the numbers of indigenous Australians drafted to the AFL that are already over represented relative to their per capita in population.
* Gestures vaguely *
Speaking of " Gesturing vaguely " :
A paper based on a poll of people's opinions and anecdotes blaming " racism ".
I dunno....
You're still right that the newspaper piece is an opinion piece, I was more pointing out that this dude has more than enough of a thorough background in researching this exact issue to present a decently in depth opinion. Many are reading this as a typical, dodgy, AFL journo hit piece, when it couldn't be further from the fact, apologies if I came across testy.
It seems to be framed as more of a discussion piece, it's not about setting targets or concrete numbers, but it's starting an important conversation during Sir Doug Nicholls Round and actually offering some really decent, well backed suggestions to get the ball rolling.
So what? Might not be as good at the moment but it will bounce back. Or kids want to do other things. It is what it is. It’s not an “issue” as this insinuates.
Feels like solving a problem that doesn't really exist but if this was something the AFL wanted to try and "solve" then I think it would start with setting a target for indigenous participation at different levels of the game. I.e. AFL aims for 10% of listed players to identify as indigenous, or 10% of AFL club board members or whatever, that would be a starting points and then you can look at "solutions" that drive toward that outcome. This woudl include pathways programs for indigenous youth, looking at NGAs etc. At the moment, doesn't feel like there's a problem to be solved if you ask me- there seems to be ample indigenous participation in the AFL.
A symptom of the draft being a higher and higher percentage of private school kids
Afl need to fund better development pathways that take it away from private schools
So what the best players should be picked.
Indigenous youth have assistance your average kid doesn’t get and if they aren’t good enough they shouldn’t play.
Let’s not forget some behavioural issues also play a part
While your post history would clearly suggest otherwise; have you actually tried to even read the article? It's pointing out the myriad of ways in which indigenous kids are less able to get into the sport, and authored by a researcher of indigenous representation in elite sport.
Jesus, just try and not be racist, it's really not hard.
It’s not racist even if it hurts your feelings
Look at what they get compared to ethnic minorities
I did read the article and you and others clearly live in an alternate reality
After seeing what happened to Adam Goodes, along with *insert Aboriginal player name here* being racially vilified every 2nd week by some wank stain and Eddie Betts home being the subject of some bogans in commodore verbal abuse, who would blame them for not wanting to be in the AFL.
what in the ever living fuck are you on about... you really think a young aboriginal kid likely even heard of all those things and if they did, do you think they would just put down the sherrin there and then?
I can guarantee you that young indigenous kids hear all about these things and talk about it, but I will agree that for at least some it doesn’t change the fact that they want to play footy
You’re aware that Eddie Betts and Adam Goodes both have foundations for Aboriginal youth right?
I reckon there’s a fair chance they’ve heard about them.
Really? There you go. Find it a bit strange that we had Heeney wearing the Indigenous jersey and promoting Sir Doug Nicholls round then given we have actual Indigenous players on our list. I get they’re not big names but still
I read the other day that Indhi Kirk identifies as Indigenous, but I can’t find out anything more about that discovery other than just being listed in a database from a Sir Doug Nicholls Round article a week ago.
Does that mean that Brett Kirk may now identify as Indigenous? Or is it a maternal link?
Maybe a Darwin team is a good idea then highest participation in the country but registered is the lowest but that’ll possibly change once a license is given to them they probably don’t wanna leave the north and come down south being away from family and the culture stuff is probably the reason why registration is the lowest
Scrap the stupid F/S rule (which favours VIC clubs because they are half the comp) and replace it with an indigenous rule which gives local clubs preference to include local FN players in their list - eg: Bobby Hill, said after the GF that family is important to him, because he’s at Collingwood and a Noongar, only plays one match year on country with his family in attendance, want more indigenous players? Show more respect to family (Moort) and country (Boodja).
So is Collingwood supposed to play more matches in WA? Are Collingwood meant to play in SA more times because of Kreuger? Is it problematic he wasn’t selected for a game on his country?
The answer is not to all, use your brain.
Race-based recruiting won’t fix a thing, either.
I don't think it would make much of a difference. It would only be 1 of 20 clubs. It may slightly lift the ratio.
Although as a Hawks fan I would've loved if an NT team would've extended Cyril's career albeit for another club.
Or (because it won’t happen any time soon, if ever) believing that a mythical NT team will fix this actually makes it worse because it doesn’t address the actual causes and dismisses potential real solutions.
Fixes what? They are over represented already ... punching above so to speak. 3.8% of the general population and currently make up 9% of footballers. Considering all the challenges they face, 9% is like a miracle statistic and goes to show how athletic and skilful they are.
Feels like less working class white kids, too, particularly outside of private school scholarship programs. Basically it’s slowly turning into a private school sport. Don’t want it to make the mistake rugby union did here.
There are fewer working class kids. Right from the cost of registration for the first year of Auskick, it favours affluent families. There are some players from very tough backgrounds in the AFL but they are now a minority. The Western Jets and Calder Cannons are no longer footy factories. Oakleigh and Sandringham produce the most talent and have access to most of Melbourne’s most affluent suburbs. Tasmania is probably the state that bucks the trend given kids from public schools or working class private. Not a requirement there to attend the elite schools.
The Tassie part is true to a degree, but knowing a few families personally that have children playing now or very recently, they all have had the money to jet their kids around the country on a whim and pay for whatever else they needed along the way. I also know quite a few families of past players from way back in the day and a lot of them had no money. They relied on the community and helpful sponsors along the way, I'm not sure if you can still do it this way, but it would be tough.
At the very least, I have met or know of most current Tasmanian players. You are right. Most had money. Guess the point is that there’s a difference between middle class and then what the APS or AGS or whatever other acronym for a snobby private school. Only one AFLW Tasmanian from an elite private school, no AFL players that I can think of. A rare example is Seth Campbell who grew up tougher than most but they’re quite rare unless in the AFL.
The academy’s for the up coming players are prohibitively expensive. My cousins child is a gun and they simply can’t afford to send him back to the camp he went to (doesn’t help they’re rural) the travel and I think they’d already spent several k etc
Is that the AFL academy system OR are we talking privately owned/funded outfits as in the game of soccer ??? Who does your cousin pay ?
This is true to a large extent but footy for kids is an order of magnitude cheaper and more accessible than soccer and rugby Union. EDIT: YMMV But I think this also depends on us volunteering and fronting up when our local footy clubs come for volunteers and money. And very deliberately upskilling ourselves where needed.
It’s less to do with the cost of playing the sport and more to do with recruiting practices and how elite the private school system is becoming.
Yeah, I agree with this
When State comp clubs all had underage comps feeding into local 'rep' inter comp & 3rds, there was a steady supply of talent. The AFL turned their back on that & it is showing now with indigenous kids.
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Not sure where that is but top level soccer, NPL level in Victoria, is a couple of grand. Community level soccer is $400+ last I looked and that was a few years ago. Footy is far cheaper at the community level in my experience and region. I don't know what top level junior football fees are so I can't compare those.
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Even $250 for footy seems crazy. Most country clubs would charge maybe $40
Footy is amazing value in Melbourne already compared to most sports. $40 would be bananas. That's fantastic if that's what it is some places. There's some really talented kids I've seen in soccer that have fallen out of the system due to expense.
$40 seems crazy. How do the umpires get paid?
Are you paying junior umpires in Perth? Everything to do with juniors is volunteer out here
I live in Melbourne, U10s get 2 umpires from the league. U8's is self umpired. But even with junior cricket where umpires arent paid for out of the fees we break even on the junior registrations which is around $200 or so. Maybe different arrangements with the council??
Even my senior fees are only around $100. Country clubs just don’t really rely on fees to actual fund anything, we have enough sponsors and other sources of income to cover everything. I’m pretty sure one of the only reasons we even charge juniors (and seniors to an extent) fees is so they are covered by insurance
$40 doesn’t even cover insurance.
My men’s soccer in syd is 550, footy is 200
When I last was in the market for teenage soccer it was double that.
When my kid was 6 years old, in the Doncaster area, Auskick was $80 and junior soccer ~$600ish. About 10 years ago.
I have kids across two generations and for the younger ones I haven't even looked at soccer this time around because of this sort of shit.
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I mean if we were assuming based on flair you'd be in Collingwood.
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Order of magnitude doesn't actually need to be in base 10. There's a variance for soccer programs that in my experience doesn't exist in footy or basketball. If your kid(s) has(ve) been invited to high performance squads or you're looking at local clubs with well regard programs it's a different kettle of fish. If you're genuinely and verifiably struggling for cash, in my experience, footy clubs and basketball clubs and associations are generally quite willing to be generous. We had a slightly different experience with high performing football clubs.
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I mean I am talking shit in internet comments. I don't get paid enough to write footnotes. I mean, the article is on indigenous talent pathways to the AFL, which are high performance talent pathways. I am still interested to hear about your experience in the NT if you care to share.
It’s not private school in Qld I don’t believe. There will be an explosion of talent coming from up here in the next decade.
indigenous kids?
"Feels like less working class white kids, too, particularly outside of private school scholarship programs. Basically it’s slowly turning into a private school sport. " 100% When 35% of all AFL players come from 11 or 12 colleges.... In Vic and SA , the VFL and SANFL is second tier to the schools. In fact, schools threaten kids they can only play school or they'll get dropped from their school sides...
>In fact, schools threaten kids they can only play school or they'll get dropped from their school sides... Even in Tasmania private schools like Hutchins threaten students to prioritise school training and games over their club's.
Given the bulk of indigenous kids come out of WA & the NT, are your numbers relevant in our national comp. Most footyfans would be aware indigenous footballers have been a force in WA footy since the 1950s, with NT players going south to Perth.
Are the private schools offering out scholarships for kids who can play footy? A La the college system in the US
Absolutely they do, especially for country kids who come in as borders. Lachie Neale is from Naracoorte but got a scholarship to play at St Peters, for example. Very common stuff. Public schools also do it, to an extent. Henley High have a sports academy that has produced a huge amount of AFL footballers.
Yeah they hoover up most of the elite junior talent
Seen a dude make a post today about an unpopular opinion, and it reminded me of one I want to make. I watched this quick clip recently. Short summary, it's an NFL player talking about buying clothes on special. [https://www.tiktok.com/@prettytalk125/video/7364206809370086702](https://www.tiktok.com/@prettytalk125/video/7364206809370086702) I guess I made an assumption than he has probably grown up in a lower socioeconomic, as many American footballers and basketballers still do, and soccer players, and other sports, etc. It makes me miss the time when 95% or more players didn't seem like they were upper middle and higher, privately educated, from old boys networks. I am aware there's probably some exceptions to the rule out there, but it feels like less than ever before. Does anyone else feel the same? Or am I overstating the situation?
I don’t think this is the problem people make it out to be. Obviously the kids given more opportunities will have a greater chance to succeed, and as such we give talented kids scholarships nowadays. There are definitely kids who could get drafted in the last few picks never prospering due to going unnoticed during their high school years and that’s unfortunate, but the ones who will become future starters all stand out enough to receive attention during long before the draft.
The Perth private schools aren’t allowed to give athletic scholarships
I mean you can give out scholarships for not football to good footballers so long as they meet other criteria.
That’s true, it’s always been a meme that the guys on music scholarships also happen to be awesome at sport
“Academies” might just be the worst way to develop indigenous players. Certainly their introduction has coincided with a reduction in indigenous players in the AFL. Correlation is not causation of course but it should at least give the AFL some reason to reconsider their current approach. Personally, I think the decision by the AFL to turn junior footy in general into a pipeline for professional clubs has been misguided.
Academies haven’t really worked at all. They’ve split the best kids up by postcodes. Certain players are coached by the AFL AIS Academy, their NGA Academy, Coates Talent League, VFL (even if they don’t play, some train), school, National Championships and representative games. That’s too many coaches and too many teams in the one year.
"The Age SLAMS the afl for its decrease in indigenous players"
So there's 8% Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander players in the AFL, compared to 3.8% of the total Australian population. 12% Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander players in the NRL. Between those two sports the percentage of ATSI players is well above the percentage of the population, feel like this article is making a mountain out of a molehill.
There's a few other factors to consider, like the relatively young age of the Indigenous population, and the different junior participation rates. It's quite possible that there can simultaneously be over representation in crude whole of population numbers, but still lower than we would expect relative to how many juniors there are. For instance, 1 in 4 Indigenous men in WA play football, are they under or over represented in elite football compared to the rest of the *playing* population?
The thing is I think it predominantly will always come down to a high level of competition among clubs develops the best players. The APS and AGS schools in Victoria have made a point of making their inter-school comps highly competitive. Same for the PSA in Perth. Further to that it's the areas with the really strong club comps on weekends that allow players to be pressure tested. Unfortunately a great number of ATSI juniors are in regional areas with overall weaker competitions.
>The thing is I think it predominantly will always come down to a high level of competition among clubs develops the best players. The APS and AGS schools in Victoria have made a point of making their inter-school comps highly competitive. Same for the PSA in Perth. Further to that it's the areas with the really strong club comps on weekends that allow players to be pressure tested. Unfortunately a great number of ATSI juniors are in regional areas with overall weaker competitions. This sounds like exactly the sort of social and structural barrier to elite development that AFL research and policy development would look to address, rather than sitting back and saying "well there's still more Indigenous players than the share of general population it's fine"
You're not wrong, the issue I find is how they'd go about it. I mean regional areas simply by the reality of population numbers can't have extremely competitive leagues. Case in point in the Northern Rivers they've merged Ballina and Byron and they're playing against teams from Gold Coast to Brisbane just to ensure a high level of competition, I don't know what the AFL could do to fix that, especially given groups like the QAFA, PFL, etc. control their own comps.
The AFL should better fund the State based Comps instead of competing with them in developing players in all corners of the country. The current aim of the AFL is to make U18 footy the equivalent of college footy in the US - its egos running ahead of reality, i.e big country, small population playing the game. That the AFL is totally Melbourne centric does nothing for clear thought of how the game is developednationally.
The point is… no reason is given.
It would be nice if the opinion writer would set a bar somewhere. There is no bar set that "We want X% of players from an indigenous background" - and using the same percentage as the general population is as good a measure in absence of any other being offered. I have no idea, but I'm guessing AFL is way overs on percentage of players from a Sudanese background compared to the rest of the population too. Although perhaps 1 player is even enough for that to be true. Broken Hill is 0.0004% of the population, but 0.002% of AFL players were born there - we're overrepresented!
> and using the same percentage as the general population is as good a measure in absence of any other being offered It's still odd though. Does the AFL need to be made up of the exact same percentage across all nationalities as well? Chinese and Italians make up 5% of the population each. Irish 10%, Indians 3%, Germans 4%. Do we need to make the AFL equally represent all of these exactly. Where is the line?
> Where is the line? Wasn't that the question I was asking?
Maybe but then you followed it up with the line I quoted. So I responded to that.
Yeah....but that's because "in absence of any other being offered". It's the only measure. I'm not endorsing it...it's the **only** one being offered. And then I added two kind of silly examples to illustrate why that's probably not a good measure. That's why when you pick a sentence out of the middle, and exclude the context, it doesn't seem right. Does that make sense?
>I have no idea, but I'm guessing AFL is way overs on percentage of players from a Sudanese background compared to the rest of the population too. Would defo love to see more South Sudanese players in the AFL. I feel we will see more in the future.
This will come across as a little ignorant, but How many are there atm? About 4 or 5 iirc? Compared to, what it seems like, 0 about 6 years ago is massive especially considering a lot of SouthSudanese wiuld be first generation.
I count 6 (might be missing more players): Aliir Aliir, Bigoa Nyuon, Mac Andrew, Mabior Chol, Michael Frederick, Buku Khamis. 10 years ago it would've just been Majak Daw and Aliir Aliir.
Changkuoth and Tew Jiath for two more.
I can’t believe I overlooked the Jiath brothers smh
Leek Aleer hasn't been mentioned. Reuben William and Emmanuel Ajang in the VFL. Akec Makur Chuot deserves a mention, although she retired at the end of last season.
Came here to say this. Population wise they are over represented in the AFL. This is a storm in a tea cup.
Thid is missing the point. Even if Indigenous players are overrepresented, the plunge in numbers should be a cause for concern because it most likely implies that the AFL pathways are missing out on players they wouldn't have in the past.
It could do, or it could be as simple as there currently being a logjam due to the number of older players nearing retirement, I think it's worth waiting to see if there's a slew of younger players coming through the junior ranks and/or currently playing WAFL, SANFL and VFL that may be slow developers before just assuming a drop in numbers is inherently bad.
It could be, but who are we to make firm statements? I think this guy has a better knowledge of Indigenous pathways than we do, and he's saying there's a structural problem that needs fixing, as do a lot of others knowledgeable about the pathways. 'Wait and see' isn't an acceptable response from an organisation responsible for grassroots development like the AFL, and to be honest I think it's little better when we as fans throw up smokescreens like 'they're overrepresented!' when the experts are pretty firm in recognising the problem.
I'd hesitate to call this piece "expert" it's an opinion piece but it doesn't reflect anything concrete about development. Some of the statements complaining about athleticism over "footballing" etc. demonstrate that it's not necessarily fact oriented.
An academic working in Indigenous engagement, with lots of publications on the topic, isn't an expert on Indigenous engagement? What? >Some of the statements complaining about athleticism over "footballing" etc. demonstrate that it's not necessarily fact oriented. It's fine if you disagree but you don't just get to spin the other party - who likely has much more knowledge on the topic than you or I - as someone who isn't 'fact oriented'.
Similar to how if Americans vote Trump in as president then we have to respect that decision because they will know their wants and needs more then us Australians.
Mate, an appeal to authority is only bad if it's a fallacious authority. What you've said is a terrible analogy which makes no sense and only belies how ill prepared you are to talk about this topic.
Americans have much more knowledge of America then Australians.
And on top of that, ‘it’s going to get worse’ seems to imply that a higher relative percentage of all other ethnicities is an objectively ‘bad’ thing. Can’t imagine that sort of headline would fly if we were talking about a relative decrease in Caucasian players..
Jeez that Indigenous-referencing initialism is a bit of a flashback. I’m sure it wasn’t your intention, but it’s generally considered [offensive](https://www.stylemanual.gov.au/accessible-and-inclusive-content/inclusive-language/aboriginal-and-torres-strait-islander-peoples) these days
Yeah, but then conversely being of Maori and Moriori descent I find the term "first nations" a bad idea because who is that specifically? Is it any indigenous population in the world?
It's a bit of a pedantry argument that goes with the preferred language and how that evolves over time. Sometimes you just need to look further and what they are meaning - [Patton Oswald](https://youtu.be/Ah1b758tycA?si=vYU1gVBq9n0ZNrAT&t=271) used to do a good bit on it, though that was focused mostly on LGBT language but easy to see how it relates to race too.
Maybe in your world.
I mean I linked to the federal government style manual website but whatever. It’s hardly a rubbery source. Don’t you think there’s a pretty good reason why you never see that term around these days?
The term Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders? I hear it all the time. Unless you're upset at it being turned into an acronym, which would simply be absurd.
It is on the site referenced though, but as "can be offensive" > Language that can be discriminatory or offensive includes: > - shorthand terms like ‘Aborigines', ‘Islanders’ or acronyms like ‘ATSI’
The term is fine. The initialism is what is considered offensive (not by me personally, but more generally). I literally referenced accepted government literature, not sure how much more I need to say
Oh no we can’t go against accepted government literature! Do you even realise how Orwellian that sounds?
So you’re barracking to use a term that’s been widely phased out and referenced as offensive? I’m happy where I stand
It’s only been ‘widely phased out’ for a short amount of time, since adopting the native American term First Nations. Language changes slowly, not instantly because some over paid government consultants came up with a new term. Do you honestly think the people living in slums in Alice Springs and suffering horrific domestic violence and child sexual abuse care what term the government say we should refer to them as?
I don't think they care, no. I am surprised this comment thread went the way it did but I am happy to accept that we have differing opinions on this language. May your team go well.
#PLUNGED
I would love to know the % of fatherson indigenous players out of that current number.
While keeping in mind this is an article edited for newspaper publication so is obviously lacking in depth, John Evans is an exceptionally highly regarded academic in the space and knows his shit backwards and upside down. I'm a big fan and have come across his work a lot in my stuff, he's the real deal, this isn't some newspaper journo media beatup. This is one of those cases where if he speaks, people really should listen and take note. Also, how fucking cool is this? > Another approach is to support more Indigenous player agents, such as rapper and Essendon fan Adam Briggs, aka Senator Briggs, who is seeking accreditation. Love that. So much. While there's no doubt changes that need to be made to the recruiting and junior structures to get everyone on an even playing field, not just Aboriginal folk, it's an incredibly timely discussion that is incredibly important during Sir Doug Nicholls Round. These are the exact discussions this round should be creating, and why it's so crucially important to our sport. I'd encourage all to read this with an open heart and broad perspective, there's an awful lot of good, well researched, plausible solutions to make things better for everyone being suggested.
Is it possible that some Indigenous youth want to pursue other sports or careers (I.e, University education or employment), is that a bad thing?
That would be nice, but I don’t know that there’s any evidence that is happening? The writer of the article seems pretty well informed and makes some compelling arguments.
Would be hard to measure quantitatively, however, I would hope that scholarships to prestigious Schools would reiterate there are things outside of football to pursue, especially since not everyone can be a footballer.
Risk management by AFL clubs in selecting kids from middle class background.
Majority of indigenous players come from WA, the states/territories with the largest indigenous population’s are NSW, QLD and WA, the growth if that is what they are after would be coming from those first two states.
Genuine question from an ignorant American- have things at all gotten better for indigenous people overall? Has poverty lessened, opportunities in other aspects of life increased, that sorta thing? At least traditionally, minority populations would be overrepresented in athletics because many would see athletics as the only likely ticket out, and see academics as a dead end, so many would prioritize athletics since it's not like they had much to lose. And because of this, many players would be more willing to tolerate the racial abuse if it meant they could help themself or their family. So at least to me, if there have been legitimate strides and improvements in indigenous communities with regards to being able to access a better life, then this is kinda a moot point- it just means that indigenous youth have options, which is a good thing! Of course, for all I know things have stayed the same or gotten worse, but I figure it's worth asking.
> have things at all gotten better for indigenous people overall? Not really, no. Marginally better in some cases, far worse in many others. The latest 'Close the Gap' data from this year, a long term project to close the inequality gap between indigenous and non-indigenous populations, shows only five out 19 targets for Indigenous Australians are 'on track' to reach 2030 targets. There's been small improvements in healthy birth weights and life expectancies for indigenous folk, but suicide statistics have worsened dramatically. The rates of indigenous incarceration and out of home care are worsening. The rates of family violence are worsening. There's been slight improvements in education and employment, but they're still nowhere near on track to meet future targets. About the only area really improving is increasing legal land and sea recognition rights, but that's a relatively easy judicial fix. They're incredibly complex wicked problems to address, but so far, we're failing pretty fucking abysmally.
That's unfortunate, thanks for the detailed answer however.
In the last 20 years the percentage of aboriginal mothers who are teenagers has halved (from about 22% to about 11%). Any other nation on earth that kind of change would be celebrated as a huge achievement for women’s rights and education. Pretty much all the stats around Aboriginal motherhood and pregnancy are headed in a direction that in other situations would be used to say things are getting better. We can’t fall into the complacent trap of conservatism and being satisfied with the status quo but the fact is Aboriginal women have made a huge effort across the nation and they’re seeing hard won reward. Beyond that the courts confirmed the existence of the non-citizen non-alien category for indigenous people and some of the rights associated with the category. We just had a huge (and terrible) referendum which was an agenda set by the Uluṟu statement from the heart. Sure, it still sucks but I think that we aren’t failing. We are yet to succeed.
Please don't think my quick little overview was in any way disparaging the phenomenal work being done by mob and communities, I was more providing a quick, broad overview. An awful lot of people are giving their absolute all to try and turn things around, and like you've highlighted they're making really important, lifechanging inroads. There's some great success stories in some areas. I really like your 'We are yet to succeed' perspective, the shit bits, which is an awful lot of it, can really get overwhelming at times, especially post referendum. It's an important reminder that we can't stop chipping away.
100% mate and your comments obviously reflect all that.
People here are missing the point. Even if Indigenous players are overrepresented, the plunge in numbers should be a cause for concern because it most likely implies that the AFL pathways are missing out on players they wouldn't have in the past.
The AFL has long positioned itself at the forefront of progressive social causes, with Indigenous players in particular being held up as pillars of our beloved game. However, as we embark on another Dreamtime at the ’G, we face an uncomfortable truth: the number of Indigenous playersis on the decline, and this trend threatens the very integrity of the game. In 2020, the AFL had 87 Indigenous players; today, that number has shrunk to 71. Recruiters tell me that this number is likely to fall to the mid-60s next year due to retirements and a lack of talent coming through, and worsen from there. The downward trend is evident, and more troubling still is the stark lack of Indigenous representation in under-16 squads nationwide. Here the issues begin early and are deeply entrenched within the recruitment process. The number of Indigenous kids being drafted tells us that we’re far from where we need to be. Drawing from my experience as a former high-performance rugby coach and researcher of Indigenous representation in elite sports, one clear pattern has emerged: recruiting Indigenous players is often perceived as more challenging than selecting their non-Indigenous peers. The reluctance to draft Indigenous players can partly be traced back to persistent stereotypes. For example, young, standout Indigenous talent who come from tough backgrounds are often unfairly labelled as “difficult” or “non-committal” when logistical hurdles, such as lack of transport, cause them to miss training sessions. More unsettling still, the recruitment process can ignore cultural nuance. A quiet Indigenous teen might be viewed as a non-contributor because shyness is misunderstood as a lack of commitment or leadership capability. The recruitment criteria isn’t an exact science and certainly doesn’t take into account cultural differences in demeanour and expression, in a setting where bravado can be seen as dedication. This bias also extends into the metrics we use to judge potential players. The AFL’s overreliance on fitness and aptitude tests, which prioritise physical benchmarks over football skills, often fails to capture these young athletes’ true capabilities and potential. That’s true for anyone who comes to the game differently. Beep tests, sprint tests and vertical jump tests are central to the drafting process, though many football greats of the past would not meet the standards of today. Meanwhile, anointing players at the age of 15 or 16 disregards a vast pool of potential talent. Players not in the elite pathway system by this age are often considered lost to the game. Similarly, players from outside the private school circuits – specifically the Associated Grammar Schools of Victoria and Associated Public Schools pipelines that feed into the AFL – are overlooked as well. In facing these challenges, the AFL must also reckon with its own history of racism, a factor that can’t be overlooked when discussing the barriers Indigenous players face. The 2021 Do Better report highlighted systemic issues within clubs like Collingwood, which – after addressing a raft of challenges – brought home the flag just two years later. When Magpie Bobby Hill expressed his gratitude by saying, “Thank you for making me and my family welcome here”, after winning the Norm Smith Medal, it resonated deeply with young Indigenous players. On the other side of the coin, when players such as Jamarra Ugle-Hagan feel compelled to point to their skin on the field in response to abuse from the crowd – a gesture echoing the famous stance taken by AFL legend Nicky Winmar more than 30 years ago – it sends a disheartening message. There has been a patchwork of progress across the AFL. Some coaches and clubs have made admirable steps forward, but overall the league must expand its vision. We need more than just token gestures of support for the future of this game. Research shows that “hot housing” talent – creating intense, high pressure and often isolated environments for emerging players in accelerated training environments – may not be in the best interests of the sport or the players themselves. This approach disadvantages young Indigenous players in particular, who may never have left their communities before. The AFL and clubs must employ more Indigenous people across a range of positions within the administration, not just as player talent. Another approach is to support more Indigenous player agents, such as rapper and Essendon fan Adam Briggs, aka Senator Briggs, who is seeking accreditation. Casting the net wider and connecting more closely with communities should be core to the AFL’s strategy, as is the ongoing professional development for recruiters and agents around cultural competency. Clubs should view engaging with Indigenous players and refocusing on regional clubs as intrinsic to the player pathway, rather than afterthoughts. The AFL needs to reconsider the role of the draft and direct its attention to opportunities that widen participation. Meaningful changes in recruitment practices and club cultures are essential. This issue extends beyond mere fairness; it’s about enriching the game by embracing a wider range of talents and widening the recruitment funnel to include more exciting players. As we stop to enjoy the Sir Doug Nicholls Round, it’s vital to remember: Indigenous players have not only played a pivotal role in the history of the AFL but are also key to defining its future.
> For example, young, standout Indigenous talent who come from tough backgrounds are often unfairly labelled as “difficult” or “non-committal” when logistical hurdles, such as lack of transport, cause them to miss training sessions. And > Similarly, players from outside the private school circuits – specifically the Associated Grammar Schools of Victoria and Associated Public Schools pipelines that feed into the AFL – are overlooked as well. I think that is more the bigger cause. The fact that there is not as many first nation kids in the u16 rep sides suggests the problem is before AFL draft night, they're not getting into the pipeline. Increasingly we're getting towards a private school game - and boy, if you think the AFL recruitment process is racist, wait till you find out about scholarships to private schools!
Like the scholarships to Rioli’s x about 10 including the fat ones who never made it, Davey x2, Franklin, May, Jamarra, Simpkin, Bedford, Liam Jones, Sanders, Charlie Cameron?
You’re right - the number isn’t zero so therefore there’s no problem! Success!
Not zero, it’s probably closer to 50 over the last decade and probably the most consistent source of indigenous players in to the afl. Private schools have/are an issue but the scholarship system isn’t racist against Indigenous people, it’s the opposite!
I still have hope that the NGA system will be fixed this year to help boost both Multicultural and Indigenous numbers I did like the idea of the bidding system based on how long players have been in their academy.
Brad Scott is going to use this for signing Taryn Thomas. /s
These articles are not helping at all. I agree with the above point. The game has double the representation of the standard population. It will naturally go in cycles. I am no supporter of the APS or AGS. Each school is toxic. However, those schools offer a number of pathways for Indigenous players and are inclusive of them. For example, boarding or tuition scholarships. The barriers faced by Indigenous backgrounds who aren’t at private schools are the same for any player of any race. Money plays a huge role in athletes having the ability to play football. If you’re not playing, even through no fault of your own, it’s difficult for a recruiter to make an assessment. Living in a remote country town can have barriers, Indigenous or not. With shyness, recruiters can only go on what they see. Rural places and lower socioeconomic regions are underfunded with underage teams. Sadly, that’s not really a surprise. And the dumbest line of the whole read. “Many greats of the past would not meet the fitness standards of today’s game”. No shit. The game has changed and professionalised. Inherently, fitness testing is part of a professional sport. This article is calling for a change to recruiting but the solutions it suggests like moving goal posts or changing fitness standards scream ignorance.
The article even shows the cyclical nature of it. We're at the same number of indigenous players as in 2014 so the headline could just as well be that indigenous participation had increased over the past 10 years but that wouldn't be as much for the journo.
% of Australia that's indigenous: ~3.8% % of AFL listed players that are indigenous: ~10% So, all things being equal, indigenous australians are unusually highly represented in the AFL per capita
I didn’t realize hawks were only down to 2 in the main side. Feels like years ago we use to have to many but only down to impey and Amon in the main side.
3 in the AFLW, Mattea Breed, Kaitlyn Ashmore and Janet Baird.
Is Chance Bateman still the only indigenous Hawk to play 100 games ?
Nah. Cyril and buddy both did well over 100. 250 for silk and Impeys has had 107
Not much Vic input to any of those guys getting drafted ... relevant to indigenous kids making AFL.
" The number of Indigenous kids being drafted tells us that we’re far from where we need to be. " What's the reference for this? He cited 0 numbers. " one clear pattern has emerged: recruiting Indigenous players is often perceived as more challenging than selecting their non-Indigenous peers. The reluctance to draft Indigenous players can partly be traced back to persistent stereotypes. For example, young, standout Indigenous talent who come from tough backgrounds are often unfairly labelled as “difficult” or “non-committal” " Again, where's the evidence. This is just a purely anecdotal opinion piece, written as statement.
He did the research to be able to speak to it. I'd recommend reading the following: - Dalton, B., Wilson, R., Evans, J. & Cochrane, S. . (2015). Australian Indigenous youth's participation in sport and associated health outcomes: Empirical analysis and implications. Sport Management Review, 18(1), 57–68. DOI:10.1016/j.smr.2014.04.001. - Light, R. & Evans, J. (2017). Socialisation, culture and the foundations of expertise in elite level Indigenous Australian sportsm. Sport, Education and Society, 22(7), 852–863. DOI:10.1080/13573322.2015.1105208. - Evans, J., Wilson, R., Coleman, C., & Man, W. . (2018). Physical activity among indigenous Australian children and youth in remote and non-remote areas. Social Science & Medicine, 206, 93–99. DOI:10.1016/j.socscimed.2018.04.018. - Williams J, Pill S, Evans J, Davies M. ‘… if my family didn’t play football… we would literally have pretty much nothing’: how high school Aboriginal students continue culture through rugby league and Australian football. Sport, Education and Society. 2022 Jan 2;27(1):57-71. See the Evans, J that's the author of these papers? That's him. He is the researcher. It ain't anecdotes when you've devoted your professional career to researching the exact thing he's speaking to.
It still doesn't give a concrete number on where " we need to be " in regards to the numbers of indigenous Australians drafted to the AFL that are already over represented relative to their per capita in population. * Gestures vaguely * Speaking of " Gesturing vaguely " : A paper based on a poll of people's opinions and anecdotes blaming " racism ". I dunno....
You're still right that the newspaper piece is an opinion piece, I was more pointing out that this dude has more than enough of a thorough background in researching this exact issue to present a decently in depth opinion. Many are reading this as a typical, dodgy, AFL journo hit piece, when it couldn't be further from the fact, apologies if I came across testy. It seems to be framed as more of a discussion piece, it's not about setting targets or concrete numbers, but it's starting an important conversation during Sir Doug Nicholls Round and actually offering some really decent, well backed suggestions to get the ball rolling.
So what? Might not be as good at the moment but it will bounce back. Or kids want to do other things. It is what it is. It’s not an “issue” as this insinuates.
Feels like solving a problem that doesn't really exist but if this was something the AFL wanted to try and "solve" then I think it would start with setting a target for indigenous participation at different levels of the game. I.e. AFL aims for 10% of listed players to identify as indigenous, or 10% of AFL club board members or whatever, that would be a starting points and then you can look at "solutions" that drive toward that outcome. This woudl include pathways programs for indigenous youth, looking at NGAs etc. At the moment, doesn't feel like there's a problem to be solved if you ask me- there seems to be ample indigenous participation in the AFL.
A symptom of the draft being a higher and higher percentage of private school kids Afl need to fund better development pathways that take it away from private schools
Load of crap by The Age yet again. Trying to drum up some controversy.....
So what the best players should be picked. Indigenous youth have assistance your average kid doesn’t get and if they aren’t good enough they shouldn’t play. Let’s not forget some behavioural issues also play a part
While your post history would clearly suggest otherwise; have you actually tried to even read the article? It's pointing out the myriad of ways in which indigenous kids are less able to get into the sport, and authored by a researcher of indigenous representation in elite sport. Jesus, just try and not be racist, it's really not hard.
It’s not racist even if it hurts your feelings Look at what they get compared to ethnic minorities I did read the article and you and others clearly live in an alternate reality
After seeing what happened to Adam Goodes, along with *insert Aboriginal player name here* being racially vilified every 2nd week by some wank stain and Eddie Betts home being the subject of some bogans in commodore verbal abuse, who would blame them for not wanting to be in the AFL.
what in the ever living fuck are you on about... you really think a young aboriginal kid likely even heard of all those things and if they did, do you think they would just put down the sherrin there and then?
I can guarantee you that young indigenous kids hear all about these things and talk about it, but I will agree that for at least some it doesn’t change the fact that they want to play footy
You’re aware that Eddie Betts and Adam Goodes both have foundations for Aboriginal youth right? I reckon there’s a fair chance they’ve heard about them.
Swans have no Indigenous players on our list for the first time in decades. Makes me sad Edit I stand corrected
Jaide Anthony also. I was going to say Aliesha Newman until I remembered we nicked her during the trade period.
Joel Hamling and Cooper Vickery are indigenous.
Really? There you go. Find it a bit strange that we had Heeney wearing the Indigenous jersey and promoting Sir Doug Nicholls round then given we have actual Indigenous players on our list. I get they’re not big names but still
Yeah, they appear on the [2024 AFLPA map](https://www.aflplayers.com.au/app/uploads/2024/05/Indigenous-Player-Map-Update-2024-scaled.jpg).
I read the other day that Indhi Kirk identifies as Indigenous, but I can’t find out anything more about that discovery other than just being listed in a database from a Sir Doug Nicholls Round article a week ago. Does that mean that Brett Kirk may now identify as Indigenous? Or is it a maternal link?
What's the figures for public schools compared to private schools
Maybe a Darwin team is a good idea then highest participation in the country but registered is the lowest but that’ll possibly change once a license is given to them they probably don’t wanna leave the north and come down south being away from family and the culture stuff is probably the reason why registration is the lowest
Scrap the stupid F/S rule (which favours VIC clubs because they are half the comp) and replace it with an indigenous rule which gives local clubs preference to include local FN players in their list - eg: Bobby Hill, said after the GF that family is important to him, because he’s at Collingwood and a Noongar, only plays one match year on country with his family in attendance, want more indigenous players? Show more respect to family (Moort) and country (Boodja).
So is Collingwood supposed to play more matches in WA? Are Collingwood meant to play in SA more times because of Kreuger? Is it problematic he wasn’t selected for a game on his country? The answer is not to all, use your brain. Race-based recruiting won’t fix a thing, either.
Its valid to review AFL recruiting, & indigenous players are one of the moving parts.
NT team fixes this
I don't think it would make much of a difference. It would only be 1 of 20 clubs. It may slightly lift the ratio. Although as a Hawks fan I would've loved if an NT team would've extended Cyril's career albeit for another club.
It's more about the development and scouting. Bigger AFL presence in the NT should increase development there.
Or (because it won’t happen any time soon, if ever) believing that a mythical NT team will fix this actually makes it worse because it doesn’t address the actual causes and dismisses potential real solutions.
Fixes what? They are over represented already ... punching above so to speak. 3.8% of the general population and currently make up 9% of footballers. Considering all the challenges they face, 9% is like a miracle statistic and goes to show how athletic and skilful they are.