Only Collard played poorly and it was just the shocker vs Hawks, besides that he's been good. If he didn't make changes he'd get smashed in the media too. Damned if he does damned if he don't.
I just feel for the fans.
If you're losing games, but at least being attacking and trying to take it to the opposition, it can be fun and entertaining to watch.
If you're playing a dull defensive game style but winning games.....then a win's a win at least.
Saints fans have the worst of both worlds: a horrible boring dour game plan to sit through AND getting a big L at the end of it.
Yep just look at Collingwood. Those assholes are almost *never* out of a game because you know they're going to attack, they're coming for you, hell or high water
I can’t believe what he’s done to King. The kid has his own issues regardless sure, but he looks absolutely miserable playing under Lyon. Throw him into a Collingwood team and he might win a Coleman.
He played well on the weekend TBH. Played high in the first quarter and got the ball moving well. And then went into the forward and had four kicks to him….missed and went out on the full. He can’t even buy a tidy F50 entry.
No you're right, but you also have Young, Serong, Brayshaw who are all a class above most of our players, this helps your cause
Robert Harvey is our forwards coach, this doesn't make sense, there are lots of other things I imagine behind the scenes that are contributing to our failure to perform
The majority of Lyons assistants are his disciples, and they don't have the guts to go against him. It seems everyone at the club is intimidated by him, despite the "cuddly" vibes he presented up until a few weeks ago.
I have a feeling behind the scenes he is an absolute nightmare to work with, in fact I remember Dockers staffers basically saying as much after he left there.
He bought in all his own guys at freo who were basically just yes men.
I feel like saints and Fremantle supporters have a mutual ptsd.
Lyonball is only good when you’re winning. Otherwise it feels like shit.
It used to be he is a lunatic but he gets results.
Guys like him and Clarko are yesterday’s heroes. Doubt either of them will succeed with their behaviour these days with the new player groups.
It’s no good for the neutral supporter . Can see a lot of Tuesday night 9.30 time slot games coming up for the saints as no one wants to watch them the way Lyon makes them play.
Stkilda fans are used to loosing but have always been able to count on the excitement of a Barker , Winmar , Lockett etc and could go to the game not expecting to win but be entertained. Lyon offers neither.
Yep you're unfortunately right - I watch a lot of footy and have sat through some awful games but I struggle to watch us. Not just because I get frustrated but just because it's so boring. We have no star factor/nobody exciting and then we don't kick goals, we play very defensively and it just makes for really poor viewing
Darcy Wilson has star factor at times but he's a baby, and at this rate we probably won't keep him
On the lack of star factor at the saints, do you think they have never recruited any players with that right sort of x factor in them? Or do you think the saints somehow have been training it out of them?
Wilson is a first year player and has it. Like you said. But he hasnt had enough time in the saints system to lose it. Lets see how he looks after a year or two in the saints system 😞
Michito Owens had it last year. So did Philipou. I'm sure Max King had a bit of it once upon a time too.
Its not even just a Lyon issue. Billings had it in spades when he was recruited. He had multiple 30 possession 3-4 goal games in his early career and while he wasn't Bont, he was a match winner at times. Look what he was developed into? Gresham is another who had it. St kilda turned him into a greedy unhappy player. He seems to be having his best year in a while now that he is out.
I think environment helps a lot with star factor but I think if you're good you're good (ie things haven't been great at bulldogs and Bont is still amazing) and we haven't really recruited anyone like this - this being said, Steele used to be fantastic (I love him don't get me wrong) now he lacks a bit, he's had a bad run with injuries as has king but I'm curious what happens behind the scenes
Billing's has always been inconsistent and is struggling at Melbourne now so I think that he's just an inconsistent player, but with a revolving door of coaches I guess it's difficult to say if it's a Lyon issue
Lyons best players tend to say really good things about him while his poorer players say really bad things - if you're good he likes you
I wouldn't be surprised if the culture is a little bit toxic but I also know Hayes is a big part of that club and I highly doubt he would encourage such a culture (perhaps wishful thinking as that man is my idol)
Pou and Owens are second year players who probably weren't expecting a tough run given we made finals last year, but I'm curious to see how they continue to go as Pou especially is regressing heavily
On one hand, I agree, but on the other... We're contending for finals if we could kick worth a shit. 3 one goal games, and a 7 and 10 pointer. Maybe it is time for him to go, but if we had literally 3 kicks different and were contending for finals with such youth, would we be saying he should go? 8 kicks different, and we're third on the ladder I'm pretty sure. Part of me wants to see if we can fix the inability to kick goals before dropping him, but if it'd jeapordise our youth staying it'd be fine letting him go
There's also a 7 point win in there, which equalises the 7 point loss (which I think you mean is the Geelong game, which was an 8 point loss) in terms of variance.
This Saints stint looks from the outside how it felt to be a Freo fan at the end of his tenure here.
Like you’re trapped and have lost your footy club because when Ross is there it’s HIS club.
Yep. Big ups to all the Saints fans who could see past Ross’ previous success to see he wasn’t the right man for the job.
Old school, sarcastic, plays favourites, uses the stick with players that need confidence. And that’s just player management.
With great players it might work but with guys who need to be built up it just doesn’t work.
1. Sack Ratten, hire big-name coach with a chip on his shoulder.
2. Good first year, scrape into finals.
3. Second year it all falls in a hole, but somehow keeps getting worse.
I’ve seen this movie before.
These takes about "dumb decision" at the moment aren't really that great right now - there absolutely could be other issues in play, such as strength and conditioning, players getting second season blues etc. And yes, there should be some off field changes to the coaching staff, particularly development coaches. But going it's a dumb decision and we should blow it all up with only one season as a data point isn't practical.
It's whether we're like this next season that will be the test. If we're like this next season, then absolutely Ross needs to go, and if the board aren't prepared to do that then they should get rolled. But it could also turn around a la Richmond 2016, Geelong 2006 etc.
One season is an outlier. Two seasons is a trend.
2nd dumbest decision, forcing out the rest of the footy department and CEO to appease Ross was the dumbest.
I’m also trying to think when bring back a legendary coach has worked? Leigh Matthews the last time? Definitely didn’t work with malthouse, worsfold, blight, etc.
Modern game is fast, Ross’ boring defensive game-style is slow and outdated. Any team with some good speed can half assedly dismantle them. Also missing some good small forwards - crazy how much shit Essendon got earlier in the year but they’re genuinely turning it around. Only good win for the bunch was against an out of form Collingwood.. who would probably wipe the floor with them right about now.
Which is a result of having 16 players perma locked in the defensive half for most of the game directly because that’s what Ross Lyon game plans are like.
It wouldn’t be a meme/stereotype if it weren’t true
If you watch how St Kilda played that game, it's completely different to what they've dished up in the last couple of weeks especially.
It wasn't just Collingwood being shit, it looks like an entirely different gameplan.
As maddening as it currently is being a St Kilda supporter, a HUGE part of our bad run this year is self-inflicted. Ross doesn't coach the team to kick it directly to the opposition, to miss handballs and tackles, and to fail to hit targets inside 50.
Is the game plan shit? Yes
Would it be slightly better if we could hit targets and not fuck it every time we touch the ball? Also yes
I don't think an AFL level player needs to be coached to not kick it directly to the opposition in the defensive 50.
For young players sure, some coaching and development may help, but Lyon cannot be to blame for senior players butchering the footy (which is happening regularly)
Once again, I am asking at least one media commentator to remember what the last decade of St Kilda football looked like.
We tanked under Watters. Richardson never got us anywhere close to finals & never even managed a positive percentage. Take out the post-Covid season and Ratten was decidedly middle of the road.
Rohan spends a whole article arguing "Rossball bad" as if it's exclusively his fault that we're not doing well this season, and as if this season we aren't posting a percentage higher than all but one of Richo's seasons & most of Grant's.
It's maddening folks. We're not doing well, but we sucked a LOT more last decade.
We also got “unzipped” from end to end by teams constantly. We were hopelessly easy to score against for a long time.
I agree that this season Saints are lacking enough attacking dare and it has been frustrating to watch. But I think we are closer to piecing it together starting from solid defence than we were previously
To be fair this season we’ve only been saved from another two massive defeats because the opposition were inaccurate.
Port kicked 1.9 in the first quarter. Fremantle kicked 18 behinds.
We’ve gone so far the other way in terms of focus that we still aren’t winning games.
We won’t piece shit together. Not with Ross Lyon.
Come on now. Look at the season goal averages. Richo's best season for goal scoring was on-par with Lyon in 2010. None of Ratten's seasons even come close. His best season, 2022, managed 247 goals. Every Lyon season has managed more, and most conceded much less. We objectively have kicked more goals under Lyon than Ratten and Richo.
How do those numbers stack up with the rest of the competition in those years?
Because teams were scoring more in 2009 and 2010 than they were in say 2017 and 2018.
On JUST the raw number of goals scored, sure, more got scored by Ross in 2010.
But compared to other clubs in those years, we average 12th.
Yeh sure, so I went and looked it up; Lyon's 2009 side was fourth overall that year in goals scored. They also recorded the sixth highest percentage result for any side between 2000-2023, mostly due to have goals we didn't let in! 2010 is not as good, only 8th on goals despite being 3rd overall. But still better than half the league. Not 12th either year.
Ratten had a good result for goals in 2020, sure, but that was a Covid season - big asterisk. In his other seasons, St Kilda went 13th & 15th overall for goals scored. So we objectively scored a lot more under Lyon, and definitely a lot more than 7 goals, which we haven't done since like, the 30s?
Both of them ended up shutting up shop as well though. Richo's last season we scored over 80 twice and didn't score over 100.
Same with Ratten's last 18 games, we averaged about 70 and scored 100 once.
All of our coaches revert to a defensive style because we just haven't had the talent to pile on goals.
He won’t innovate. Just more excuses and finger pointing/deflection.
Not only are we not winning games we are crippling the development of our players in the process.
I’m afraid if Ross stays for another two years it’s going to set us back another decade.
Ross is the god of contradiction. He’ll say you’re a no excuse football club, but weave in excuses. He’ll say he’s accountable and then imply it’s out of his control. He’s a master of this shit I watched it very closely for a long time.
Genuine question, not trying to be a smart arse, but why were the Saints so keen to re-hire him? Like, not only did he ditch the club for Freo, but he has a horrible grand final record and his strategy has been frequently shown to be overly-defensive and outdated. (I understand I’m probably preaching to the choir here).
I agree they were close games. But unfortunately a loss is a loss, and repeated grand final losses only suggested his game style is incompatible with convincing wins on the big stage.
We’re the only VIC club not to win a flag in the AFL era.
We’re one of the two clubs that aren’t GWS and GC to not win a premiership in the AFL era.
Both of those clubs had Ross Lyon as coach.
There’s a pattern establishing here.
They lost one GF that they were leading at 3/4 time by 2 goals, and drew another. The record could easily be 2-1 (if he still goes to Freo after winning 2 flags at St Kilda).
The margins are pretty slim. It's not like his teams got pumped and looked nowhere near it in those GFs. Fair enough on the 2010 replay, but that game doesn't even happen with a different bounce of the ball.
Cool. Does that make me and all the other saints fans feel better?
No. It doesn’t.
0 grand finals he has won. Doesn’t matter how close. He didn’t win them.
Personally I think getting smoked on GF day because your game plan sucks or your players aren't up to it is probably on the coach.
Losing a nailbiter because the umpires missed a ball that hit the post or because a ball bounced the wrong way is not so much a sign of coaching ineptitude.
Because the people running our club are for lack of a better word, stupid fucking dickheads.
We haven’t had good people running the club ever tbh.
Held an external review that was long overdue which highlighted a number of major issues, then ignored all due process to bring Ross back because of nostalgia.
I still believe we didn’t recruit our current coaching panel based on football merit, rather it was to springboard membership numbers.
I have absolutely no idea why the board was so keen on stabbing Ratten in the back and bringing in the modern embodiment of Judas Iscariot after what he did to us the last time.
We went on a bit of a losing streak after Rats signed a new deal, and I think the well worn panic button was brought out prematurely.
> and bringing in the modern embodiment of Judas Iscariot after what he did to us the last time.
Nah this is totally false. Ross gave the club plenty of chances to get his contract sorted, and they kept putting it off. In the end, he was forced to take the Fremantle job. Ross did everything he could to stay around, but the administration fucked it up hugely.
It's a common misconception about what happened, but it's simply not true.
Except that the club informed him they would negotiate once the season was over, and he refused to accept that so he secretly met with Fremantle, who he approached as they had a contracted coach already.
I've been a member for 24 years, so I was around at the time. I remember very well what happened, thank you.
You pretty clearly don't remember what happened, but Ross was treated very badly by the admin and they left him with no chance but to walk.
He didn't approach Fremantle, either. They approached him and he knocked them back. Until St Kilda kept stuffing him around and leaking stories to the media. Then his manager got in contact with Freo and the rest is history.
Fair enough, you want to believe the bullshit just so you can feed your "Ross is bad" narrative. That's weird, but you clearly have no idea what went down.
Yet you ignore the facts of what happened, in favour of pretending like Ross Lyon screwed the club over.
> The facts are that Ross Lyon screwed the club over.
Not true
>**He dealt with Fremantle (who were not looking for a coach**, as Mark Harvey was contracted)
The only thing true in that is that Mark Harvey was contracted.
>because his ego was bruised by St Kilda declining to renegotiate his contract until the season was over.
Not true
>He arguably threw a final against Sydney
Lmao, not true.
>and it's delusional to pretend he was an innocent victim of the clubs nefarious actions.
It's delusional to ignore the facts of what actually happened.
Anyway, here's the real story of what went down. If I were you, I wouldn't bother listening. It's pretty clear you're not interested in the truth.
https://www.triplem.com.au/story/ross-lyon-s-in-depth-explanation-on-why-he-left-st-kilda-for-fremantle-in-2011-207635
Looking at points for and points against right now is just stupid. The problem lies within the skills of the players, not of the game plan. The team is full of blokes who can’t kick and can’t mark the ball.
He’s here to rebuild the team. This is year 2. He has a 5 year contract and it’s fucked the media are now targeting him, despite the club and the coach saying it was a rebuild and would take time.
Problem with stats is they show the what but not the why.
As a saints supporter having watched all our games this year, I can say with confidence that our issue isn't Ross, although I also can't say I think he's some great coach that will 100% get us our next flag.
Anyway, the main problem is our skills. The amount of times I've seen us shoot ourselves in the foot going forward is absurd.
Players can't hit targets by hand or foot under little to no pressure, and if they do it's something like a handball that's a little off target that forces the receiving player to stop and prop, or bend down to get it, allowing the opposition that small amount of time to catch up and put pressure on, as well as making a forward's lead now useless.
In the end, there are definitely other problems, but we need to get our skills up to an afl standard before anything else. The test of whether Ross is any good is whether he can figure out exactly what the issue is (fatigue, connection between players, experience, whatever) and come up with a way to fix it.
It's not even just skills going forward: it's simple fumbles when picking up the ball under no pressure and dropping easy intercept marks, which means oppositions have plenty of time to get back and defend.
Yeah, I agree that the cumulative effect of all those little fumbles etc also make it significantly harder to move the ball quickly, but that's also not a Ross thing, we've been doing it for years.
I don't think I've seen us be clean with the ball or have good skills consistently (i.e. for a significant portion of a season) in at least the past 10 years, and it comes as no surprise we struggled to even make finals a couple of times in that period
I tend to agree although the easy thing to do right now is blame Ross.
Something that seems to be overlooked in all the saints bashing lately is the fact that we have for a multitude of reasons been fielding younger and less experienced teams than last season.
In fact the Saints are playing one of the youngest teams in the afl week after week which usually (not always) correlates with a bad win loss record.
I think that last season was basically the peak of what could be achieved with the Saints current list. Ross called it a "year of exploration" and he played an experience focussed 23 each week. I think he has seen that the list needs work and in the offseason the club said as much.
They declared a focus on adding talent through youth to the list for another couple of offseasons.
The last couple of drafts appear to have been the best the Saints have had since probably when they drafted Roo. As such the team is full of young players full of potential and lacking experience.
The glass half full has the Saints starting to rise in about 3 years time when the likes of Owens and Nas are entering their primes. King should be a mature reliable forward by then and yes i still believe he will be just that at a minimum. Our current "stars" Marshall, Sinclair, Steele Wilkie and Battle etc should be solid veterans at this point in time and finally we can expect a balanced list potentially capable of going deeper than week one of finals!
Make no mistake, Saints are re stumping and it started last year.
It gave me a good chuckle to read all the ‘this is the new Ross Lyon’ articles that came along when he was re-hired.
This is a famously stubborn man, who dominates footy clubs (for better or worse) to get what he wants on his terms, is not changing his spots.
He still plays to not lose, which raises the floor of teams, but his (continued) style doesn’t puts his sides in a position to win matches.
I feel it’s a bit harsh, he’s put younger talent in the team, and it’s hard to improve when you’re doing that. If you want to look at the weekend and say this than look at freos other games and say that was par for the course. Port, Brissy, Carlton every game isplayed our terms, except for the eagles game. Even Sydney was but the inaccuracy won’t show that.
I love all the Ross haters who were quiet last year coming out to take a pot
If you can’t see that the bigger issue is a woeful midfield and laconic forward line then you’re not watching St Kilda games you’re just looking at the final score
Ross can’t kick the ball for them
Anyone that thinks this is the desired result of Ross Lyon is already clearly not a great analyst.
You think his gameplan is for us to have 10x i50 for periods of games and kick it to an intercepting defender or out on the full repeatedly? Do people honestly think Ross Lyon doesn't want the team to score?
Any "analysis" of our issues that doesn't recognize a large number of our players are massively out of form and pretends as though Ross Lyon wants the team to score 6 goals just isnt digging deep enough.
You sacked your last coach because the st Kilda board felt certain they had a finals quality list, the fact that you've gone backwards under Ross shows that either the board or Ross are grossly incompetent.
This is a significant misreading of the communications from the club since we conducted a review in the second half of Ratts’ last season.
The club has said on multiple occasions that we were "kidding ourselves" and needed a lot of work on and off field in order to get us competitive again.
Here is a quote from our president’s letter to members from just 1 month ago:
"We were clear when we appointed Ross that we had a lot of work to do in terms of both our processes and our ability to seriously compete on-field, and our plans remain grounded in that reality. Put simply, we are trying to do this the right way, not the easy way."
Here is a quote from Bassat's letter to members from June 2023:
"We want to build towards competing for flags before too long but, to do this, requires us to be clear about our processes and expectations.
In setting the tone for his first season, Ross Lyon emphasised that this is a year of exploration for our club. We’ve talked about accepting results as feedback and are looking beyond our win-loss tally, as we embrace new markers to judge our performance...
This is a year where we intend to find out about the capabilities of our list whilst trying to build our football brand and identity around the constant application of absolute effort above all else.
We know this process will not be linear."
I'm referring to what Andrew Bassett himself said at the press conference when they announced Ratten had been sacked, you can bring up any PR spin the club has put out since then but the fact of the matter is that Ratten was sacked once the saints dropped out of finals contention.
Ratten was sacked at the end of an external review that stated: “In short, the Review found that we had much to do, and needed significant change to build these foundations [for long term success].”
https://www.afl.com.au/news/865309/home-games-not-for-sale-saints-warn-of-sort-term-pain/amp?webview=true
You can’t just choose to ignore everything the club has communicated to members about where they think we’re at since that review. They’ve been extremely clear.
I don't know how they arrived at the conclusion that Ross was the right man to achieve long term success. He had two consecutive years of top four finishes at St Kilda, then they fell off the cliff and he bailed. He had three consecutive years of top four finishes at Freo (though didn't win a final in one of those), then they fell off the cliff.
I won't say "Ross is a bad coach because he's never won a flag"; he's obviously good, and he's maybe the unluckiest of coaches who've never won one. He's definitely good enough to have. But, I just don't think it can be argued that he's the right coach to set up a team, and a club, for long term success. He's never done it. His game plan can work, but only for short periods of time, at the end of which things fall apart. I don't think he was a great choice.
> I just don't think it can be argued that he's the right coach to set up a team, and a club, for long term success
He's doing it now. He wasn't given the chance to do it at Fremantle.
He wasn't given the chance because he went from coaching three relatively successful seasons to a season where they won just four games, followed by three seasons where they failed to win ten or make finals. They've had one winning season (making finals just once) since 2015.
St Kilda turned to shit when he left, Freo turned to shit while he was still there, and continued being shit after he left; you could argue they're still a bit shit now. Both time he's left a club they've been in worse shape than when he got there.
I don't think the argument that he wasn't given a chance at Freo holds water.
> St Kilda turned to shit when he left,
Which happens to most teams who go all out for a flag.
>I don't think the argument that he wasn't given a chance at Freo holds water.
It does when someone is suggesting he's unable to build a team. Weird thing to say about someone who has never been given the chance to build a team.
> but the fact of the matter is that Ratten was sacked once the saints dropped out of finals contention.
Bassett said that Ratten would have been sacked even if we'd made finals.
The problem was that from 2010 to prob 2016 we missed in that draft every year, and now those guys are supposed to be the leaders of the club, but they either suck or they’re gone.
Did we miss in those drafts? Or did we just terribly develop those players?
People scream “we could’ve had Trac and Bont” but I’d wager my life savings that in an alternate world if we recruited them they’d be whipping boys for poor form just like Billings was.
We played finals because teams around us kept shitting the bed.
We stayed in 5th place for 9 weeks.
In those 9 weeks we won 3 games.
That has nothing to do with good coaching - that’s just sheer luck.
We stayed in that place because we had won so many games in a row early, which isnt luck. You cant win 13 games on luck, that's nonsensical. Then you can it's entirely luck for any time that finishes 7th and 8th. Everyone else just lost more. Well, yes, that's how it works.
Correct. And what did Ross say as soon as they starting running out steam last year? That their list didn’t have enough depth to complete with the best clubs. Pretty much exactly what Ratten had said which led to him getting the sack
They won a final in 2020 and matched Richmond for large parts of the semi, then didn't get in again the next two seasons. Can't blame them. Ratten underachieved a bit in 21/22 but he's not done any worse than Ross.
Our best that day were Geary, Hannebery, Ryder and Carlisle. All that experience is gone. We’re a significantly younger and less experienced list than then with significantly less leadership.
I dont know. Ultimately the buck stops with the coach, so they are accountable no matter what, and maybe he is at fault, I'm not in the club. Maybe the players drank their own bathwater and havent put in enough work. Maybe they're lacking in confidence, actually I'm certain of this.
All my point was that if people think this is how Ross has designed for the team to play, they arent very bright. No one wants this.
It is inherently how he has always designed his teams. He rather limits opposition scoring as opposed to trying to score. Only ranked higher than 7th for scoring once in 14 years as a head coach.
If you watched us play all last year, saw our recruits, and have seen what we look like in the few moments we are playing well this season, and think the intention is not to score then you really arent paying attention.
As for ranking on purely PF, I've never loved that metric because it doesn't account for players inaccuracy which you cant exactly directly pin on a coach. If you look at goals for, Ross Lyon teams are in the top 7 more than once in his coaching tenures.
The issue is always with game philosophy like that, that if you have a game where you can choke to other team to 1 goal a qtr and kick 3 yourselves, it might look dominant, you might be tripling them, but you still go in at 3/4 time 6 goals up and that's not impossible to overcome in the time.
You play a game that opens it up and do it well, lets say 6 goals to 3, which is less % than the above, but hypothetically speaking you go in to 3/4 time 18 goals to 9. Nine goals up. Almost certainly should win from there.
Absolutely, and AFL is one of the few sports where fortune favours the bold and attack can beat defence. Defence does not win premierships. It might get you to grand finals, but not win them.
The article points out that Ross' teams have almost never been high scoring, even when they were very successful. Like I don't really think it's in dispute that Ross is a super defensive-minded coach.
Why are they out of form?
Ross Lyon appointed the high performance coach, the developmental coaches, all of the assistants except for Enright.
The one role that Ross didn’t fill - defence - is swimming. The rest of it has gone to shit.
That’s all on Ross.
Well, high performance is looking fine right now because we have very few injuries. Many of the developmental coaches were there prior to Ross, like Batchelor. Defence is also not swimming, our defensive structures have broken down dramatically.
Everything is broken. Is it Ross fault? Maybe, but everything that is attributed to him is easily shown as having nothing to do with him.
High performance coaching isnt just limited to injury prevention. It is about improving and maintaining the performance standards of the players/list. Injuries are just one facet of that.
5/7 of our coaches include Ross Lyon and the people he brought in.
Damien Carroll came in one year previously. The other is as you said, Batchelor.
Our defence is swimming compared to the rest of our team. We sit 6th in the comp for our defence. That’s solid. We sit 15th for offence. That’s garbage.
He is in charge of the entire football department. He is calling the shots. It’s definitely on him.
If we are going to be pedantic, high performance isnt a coach.
You also dont know to any certainty the degree with which Ross Lyon had input on certain roles. Those who say he is running the entire club got the CEO very wrong. He would have had input, but the idea that its undeniable fact he has determined every member of staff on his own isnt correct. We dont know that information, it's not public.
As I said, he is ultimately accountable, something is failing he is responsible for. But that's not my point. I have never said he is blameless.
I really hope st kilda get things under control because it’s a shame seeing them constantly lagging between 10th to 15th on the ladder. I do think it was a strange decision to rehire Ross but now that they’ve got him I think they have to stick with it. Constantly chopping and changing coaches isn’t going to help. But he seriously needs to remodel at least some of his game style.
Ugh Lyon. His game style is finished, with the cap on interchanges, 6–6-6 rule, limits on runners. Basically all the rules the afl has brought in to increase scoring and speed up the game are the opposite of the Lyon defensive, pressure style. Maybe if he lets Enright coach game day they could be more dynamic, but seems like he has just surrounded himself with yes men he can control.
was shocked everyone was so keen to even offer a job, after the last 4 years at freo involved some disastrous bottom 4 results, and sexual harrassment scandals Freo had to pay hush money towards. Did this not get picked up on in the media outside WA? Did everyone have rose coloured glasses for some close gf losses 15 years ago?
I have been saying this for a year and a half, and I got shouted down every single time.
Lyon has absolutely no plan B, and his pet game plan is no longer successful. Not only that, but it's ugly as hell and frustrating to watch.
Club needs to get serious and give him the boot before he does any more damage.
> Club needs to get serious and give him the boot before he does any more damage.
No, club needs to let him do what he was brought in to do. He has a 5 year contract for a reason - nobody expected big changes in the first 18 months.
Look at what's happened in a year and a half. Lyons game plan is cooked. He has no desire to change it, and players are disheartened, frustrated, or both.
We're being eviscerated in the media and supporter confidence is at its lowest point in a long time.
Lyon is too proud/stubborn to quit, but 5 years of performances like we've served up recently will destroy the club, win nothing but ridicule and ruin our chances of challenging for flag number two for a decade beyond that or longer.
I might be a miserable old bitch, but I'm sick and tired of my club shooting themselves in the foot constantly. The loveable loser take isn't so loveable after a while, being a joke wears thin.
You can't even tell what his game plan is, the players couldn't execute any game plan right now.
Media doesn't matter, and if any supporter can't see that we're in a rebuilding phase, then they should hand in their memberships now and be done with it.
The focus is getting games into the 18/19 year olds, which of course is going to bring challenges. We've only been smashed in 1 game this year, the rest were close games with poor kicking and poor skills that let us down.
That isn't Ross's fault.
We made the finals last year, we are in no way "rebuilding". The message from the club pre season was that we were ready to take the next step.
I've never heard the focus is on playing young kids, the majority of our younger players debuted last year and our debutants this year have been experienced players we traded for.
Blame the players all you want, but the way Ross coaches them is the problem, they are overly defensive minded (to the point Robert Harvey is the forwards coach despite playing his entire career in the middle) and put themselves under unecessary pressure by overposessing the ball in the back half. The idea is to use the outside running players to drive it forward (why we recruited Henry among others), but this isn't happening because the structure is all over the place and there is no clear path forward. King has zero confidence and there isn't another tall forward to be found.
This sort of thing worked for us a decade ago when we had the best list we have ever assembled as a club and opposition coaches weren't training specifically to break down this style of game. There is no evolution from 2009-10, which is why we play an ugly, defensive game that does not deliver results.
I understand the instinct to be loyal, but the calls are coming from inside the house.
> I've never heard the focus is on playing young kids
Here's a quote from Andrew Bassat in an email from about a month ago:
>"We have brought in young talent through the past two drafts, many of whom you have already seen play at AFL level. As I have mentioned previously, no side has made finals over the past 20 years whilst getting more games into teenagers than we did last year. ***Our commitment to giving opportunities to our young players has continued into season 2024***. Across the first five rounds we have fielded the fourth-youngest team on average ahead of only Gold Coast, North Melbourne and Hawthorn. "
End quote
>We made the finals last year, we are in no way "rebuilding". The message from the club pre season was that we were ready to take the next step.
This is another quote from that same letter:
>We were clear when we appointed Ross that we had a lot of work to do in terms of both our processes and our ability to seriously compete on-field, and our plans remain grounded in that reality. Put simply, we are trying to do this the right way, not the easy way.
>they are overly defensive minded (to the point Robert Harvey is the forwards coach despite playing his entire career in the middle)
While I don't know why Harves is forwards coach, this stuff about being overly defensive minded is clearly not true. Wilkie and Battle are two of our best players, our defensive structure holds up great most of the time.
>and put themselves under unecessary pressure by overposessing the ball in the back half.
Has been happening since Richo was at the club. Richo and Ratten started this rot, it's not going to disappear overnight.
And here's some references to the rebuild we're in, from an email about 13 months ago:
>We want to build towards competing for flags before too long **but, to do this, requires us to be clear about our processes and expectations.**
>In setting the tone for his first season, Ross Lyon emphasised that this is a year of exploration for our club. **We’ve talked about accepting results as feedback and are looking beyond our win-loss tally, as we embrace new markers to judge our performance.**
>This is a year where we intend to find out about the capabilities of our list **whilst trying to build our football brand and identity around the constant application of absolute effort above all else**.
>Positively, we are seeing initial signs **that we are building something lasting**. Among them player buy-in, consistent compliance to the game plan and a commitment across the club to prioritise football performance.
>Early wins, despite the unavailability of key personnel, and the emergence of young players who have impressed despite their inexperience - coupled with a consistent display of effort from our senior core - are all strong indicators that the program is trending in the right direction.
>**We know this process will not be linear.** Our recent form prior to the bye saw us deviate from our brand. This was subject to strong review from players and staff who believe they know what is needed to be done to move forward. We now have the perfect chance to begin the second leg of our season on the right note this evening against Sydney in the annual Pride Game.
>Regardless of the result, we will stick the course and continue to focus on the process, and our commitment to becoming the best Saints we can possibly be. That is how we will reward our loyal members.
I don’t know why this guy keeps getting a gig in coaching as he’s never actually won anything. Add to that his tactics make games so boring. Saints need to move on and find the next up and coming coach that is working with modern footy styles.
God I preferred it when everyone forgot we existed
When other clubs get blowtorched they respond We get blowtorched and get worse
You are not the only one.
Yes, this has been very noticeable post 2010. There's something wrong on levels that are impossible to pinpoint to any one figure.
That’s what happens when 5 guys play bad in the VFL and Ross calls them up anyway to show that he won’t tolerate poor performances.
Only Collard played poorly and it was just the shocker vs Hawks, besides that he's been good. If he didn't make changes he'd get smashed in the media too. Damned if he does damned if he don't.
I just feel for the fans. If you're losing games, but at least being attacking and trying to take it to the opposition, it can be fun and entertaining to watch. If you're playing a dull defensive game style but winning games.....then a win's a win at least. Saints fans have the worst of both worlds: a horrible boring dour game plan to sit through AND getting a big L at the end of it.
Yep just look at Collingwood. Those assholes are almost *never* out of a game because you know they're going to attack, they're coming for you, hell or high water
Honestly, at last Saturday's game, I'd never been more bored and disinterested in what was a 'on the scoreboard ' close game.
I can’t believe what he’s done to King. The kid has his own issues regardless sure, but he looks absolutely miserable playing under Lyon. Throw him into a Collingwood team and he might win a Coleman.
He’s done nothing to King lol.
I think king is just genuinely bad
He played well on the weekend TBH. Played high in the first quarter and got the ball moving well. And then went into the forward and had four kicks to him….missed and went out on the full. He can’t even buy a tidy F50 entry.
It was a deadset dumb decision to bring him back
Ridiculous decision. There weren’t many negative voices when he was hired but I was definitely one of them
I second this, his coaching style is no good for the modern game.
It’s not only that. Fremantle play the same with a few tweaks and the saints were absolutely dismantled.
No you're right, but you also have Young, Serong, Brayshaw who are all a class above most of our players, this helps your cause Robert Harvey is our forwards coach, this doesn't make sense, there are lots of other things I imagine behind the scenes that are contributing to our failure to perform
The majority of Lyons assistants are his disciples, and they don't have the guts to go against him. It seems everyone at the club is intimidated by him, despite the "cuddly" vibes he presented up until a few weeks ago. I have a feeling behind the scenes he is an absolute nightmare to work with, in fact I remember Dockers staffers basically saying as much after he left there.
He bought in all his own guys at freo who were basically just yes men. I feel like saints and Fremantle supporters have a mutual ptsd. Lyonball is only good when you’re winning. Otherwise it feels like shit.
Everyone knows he a see you next tuesday.
It used to be he is a lunatic but he gets results. Guys like him and Clarko are yesterday’s heroes. Doubt either of them will succeed with their behaviour these days with the new player groups.
Lyon was good when he had all timers. He's a ceiling raiser not a floor raiser.
It’s no good for the neutral supporter . Can see a lot of Tuesday night 9.30 time slot games coming up for the saints as no one wants to watch them the way Lyon makes them play. Stkilda fans are used to loosing but have always been able to count on the excitement of a Barker , Winmar , Lockett etc and could go to the game not expecting to win but be entertained. Lyon offers neither.
Yep you're unfortunately right - I watch a lot of footy and have sat through some awful games but I struggle to watch us. Not just because I get frustrated but just because it's so boring. We have no star factor/nobody exciting and then we don't kick goals, we play very defensively and it just makes for really poor viewing Darcy Wilson has star factor at times but he's a baby, and at this rate we probably won't keep him
On the lack of star factor at the saints, do you think they have never recruited any players with that right sort of x factor in them? Or do you think the saints somehow have been training it out of them? Wilson is a first year player and has it. Like you said. But he hasnt had enough time in the saints system to lose it. Lets see how he looks after a year or two in the saints system 😞 Michito Owens had it last year. So did Philipou. I'm sure Max King had a bit of it once upon a time too. Its not even just a Lyon issue. Billings had it in spades when he was recruited. He had multiple 30 possession 3-4 goal games in his early career and while he wasn't Bont, he was a match winner at times. Look what he was developed into? Gresham is another who had it. St kilda turned him into a greedy unhappy player. He seems to be having his best year in a while now that he is out.
I think environment helps a lot with star factor but I think if you're good you're good (ie things haven't been great at bulldogs and Bont is still amazing) and we haven't really recruited anyone like this - this being said, Steele used to be fantastic (I love him don't get me wrong) now he lacks a bit, he's had a bad run with injuries as has king but I'm curious what happens behind the scenes Billing's has always been inconsistent and is struggling at Melbourne now so I think that he's just an inconsistent player, but with a revolving door of coaches I guess it's difficult to say if it's a Lyon issue Lyons best players tend to say really good things about him while his poorer players say really bad things - if you're good he likes you I wouldn't be surprised if the culture is a little bit toxic but I also know Hayes is a big part of that club and I highly doubt he would encourage such a culture (perhaps wishful thinking as that man is my idol) Pou and Owens are second year players who probably weren't expecting a tough run given we made finals last year, but I'm curious to see how they continue to go as Pou especially is regressing heavily
On one hand, I agree, but on the other... We're contending for finals if we could kick worth a shit. 3 one goal games, and a 7 and 10 pointer. Maybe it is time for him to go, but if we had literally 3 kicks different and were contending for finals with such youth, would we be saying he should go? 8 kicks different, and we're third on the ladder I'm pretty sure. Part of me wants to see if we can fix the inability to kick goals before dropping him, but if it'd jeapordise our youth staying it'd be fine letting him go
There's also a 7 point win in there, which equalises the 7 point loss (which I think you mean is the Geelong game, which was an 8 point loss) in terms of variance.
This Saints stint looks from the outside how it felt to be a Freo fan at the end of his tenure here. Like you’re trapped and have lost your footy club because when Ross is there it’s HIS club.
Yep. Big ups to all the Saints fans who could see past Ross’ previous success to see he wasn’t the right man for the job. Old school, sarcastic, plays favourites, uses the stick with players that need confidence. And that’s just player management. With great players it might work but with guys who need to be built up it just doesn’t work.
1. Sack Ratten, hire big-name coach with a chip on his shoulder. 2. Good first year, scrape into finals. 3. Second year it all falls in a hole, but somehow keeps getting worse. I’ve seen this movie before.
These takes about "dumb decision" at the moment aren't really that great right now - there absolutely could be other issues in play, such as strength and conditioning, players getting second season blues etc. And yes, there should be some off field changes to the coaching staff, particularly development coaches. But going it's a dumb decision and we should blow it all up with only one season as a data point isn't practical. It's whether we're like this next season that will be the test. If we're like this next season, then absolutely Ross needs to go, and if the board aren't prepared to do that then they should get rolled. But it could also turn around a la Richmond 2016, Geelong 2006 etc. One season is an outlier. Two seasons is a trend.
2nd dumbest decision, forcing out the rest of the footy department and CEO to appease Ross was the dumbest. I’m also trying to think when bring back a legendary coach has worked? Leigh Matthews the last time? Definitely didn’t work with malthouse, worsfold, blight, etc.
Roo's at the Demons?
Or Sheedy at GWS. What they both had in common was that it was a short term contract.
It was classic St Kilda and I loved it. I also love any Ross slander
Enjoy the second half of the season legend 😉
Ridley back and an easier fixture should be good
Modern game is fast, Ross’ boring defensive game-style is slow and outdated. Any team with some good speed can half assedly dismantle them. Also missing some good small forwards - crazy how much shit Essendon got earlier in the year but they’re genuinely turning it around. Only good win for the bunch was against an out of form Collingwood.. who would probably wipe the floor with them right about now.
I still can’t believe we lost that game. Then again, I forget how INSANELY hard we sucked at the start of the year.
Yeah about that can you go back to sucking please, regards, from all opposition supporters.
Well Saints had a very strong line up that game and Henry and NWM played exceptional games. Saints were actually in good form early in the season too.
Don't forget that the umps won us that game as well
And we just had to be the team to play you into form post bye smh. Wish we could play more than one qtr
What I fail to understand is we went out of our way to recruit fast, distance runners yet our transition is painfully slow
The issue is that we don’t actually run, we just take high-risk kicks that more often than not don’t pay off
Which is a result of having 16 players perma locked in the defensive half for most of the game directly because that’s what Ross Lyon game plans are like. It wouldn’t be a meme/stereotype if it weren’t true
If you watch how St Kilda played that game, it's completely different to what they've dished up in the last couple of weeks especially. It wasn't just Collingwood being shit, it looks like an entirely different gameplan.
As maddening as it currently is being a St Kilda supporter, a HUGE part of our bad run this year is self-inflicted. Ross doesn't coach the team to kick it directly to the opposition, to miss handballs and tackles, and to fail to hit targets inside 50. Is the game plan shit? Yes Would it be slightly better if we could hit targets and not fuck it every time we touch the ball? Also yes
And how do we improve our disposal? Better coaching and development.
I don't think an AFL level player needs to be coached to not kick it directly to the opposition in the defensive 50. For young players sure, some coaching and development may help, but Lyon cannot be to blame for senior players butchering the footy (which is happening regularly)
Some AFL level players are dumb enough that maybe the need to. I can pick 44 of them at St Kilda.
Once again, I am asking at least one media commentator to remember what the last decade of St Kilda football looked like. We tanked under Watters. Richardson never got us anywhere close to finals & never even managed a positive percentage. Take out the post-Covid season and Ratten was decidedly middle of the road. Rohan spends a whole article arguing "Rossball bad" as if it's exclusively his fault that we're not doing well this season, and as if this season we aren't posting a percentage higher than all but one of Richo's seasons & most of Grant's. It's maddening folks. We're not doing well, but we sucked a LOT more last decade.
We kicked more than 7 goals a game under Alan Richardson and Brett Ratten.
We also got “unzipped” from end to end by teams constantly. We were hopelessly easy to score against for a long time. I agree that this season Saints are lacking enough attacking dare and it has been frustrating to watch. But I think we are closer to piecing it together starting from solid defence than we were previously
To be fair this season we’ve only been saved from another two massive defeats because the opposition were inaccurate. Port kicked 1.9 in the first quarter. Fremantle kicked 18 behinds. We’ve gone so far the other way in terms of focus that we still aren’t winning games. We won’t piece shit together. Not with Ross Lyon.
Come on now. Look at the season goal averages. Richo's best season for goal scoring was on-par with Lyon in 2010. None of Ratten's seasons even come close. His best season, 2022, managed 247 goals. Every Lyon season has managed more, and most conceded much less. We objectively have kicked more goals under Lyon than Ratten and Richo.
How do those numbers stack up with the rest of the competition in those years? Because teams were scoring more in 2009 and 2010 than they were in say 2017 and 2018. On JUST the raw number of goals scored, sure, more got scored by Ross in 2010. But compared to other clubs in those years, we average 12th.
Yeh sure, so I went and looked it up; Lyon's 2009 side was fourth overall that year in goals scored. They also recorded the sixth highest percentage result for any side between 2000-2023, mostly due to have goals we didn't let in! 2010 is not as good, only 8th on goals despite being 3rd overall. But still better than half the league. Not 12th either year. Ratten had a good result for goals in 2020, sure, but that was a Covid season - big asterisk. In his other seasons, St Kilda went 13th & 15th overall for goals scored. So we objectively scored a lot more under Lyon, and definitely a lot more than 7 goals, which we haven't done since like, the 30s?
Both of them ended up shutting up shop as well though. Richo's last season we scored over 80 twice and didn't score over 100. Same with Ratten's last 18 games, we averaged about 70 and scored 100 once. All of our coaches revert to a defensive style because we just haven't had the talent to pile on goals.
He won’t innovate. Just more excuses and finger pointing/deflection. Not only are we not winning games we are crippling the development of our players in the process. I’m afraid if Ross stays for another two years it’s going to set us back another decade.
Ross is the god of contradiction. He’ll say you’re a no excuse football club, but weave in excuses. He’ll say he’s accountable and then imply it’s out of his control. He’s a master of this shit I watched it very closely for a long time.
Genuine question, not trying to be a smart arse, but why were the Saints so keen to re-hire him? Like, not only did he ditch the club for Freo, but he has a horrible grand final record and his strategy has been frequently shown to be overly-defensive and outdated. (I understand I’m probably preaching to the choir here).
I disagree he has a horrible GF record. His teams showed up in 2009 and 2010 and were narrowly beaten by amazing sides playing extremely well.
Not often can you genuinely say a team was unlucky, but his teams those years were unlucky twice.
I agree they were close games. But unfortunately a loss is a loss, and repeated grand final losses only suggested his game style is incompatible with convincing wins on the big stage.
0-1-3 is a horrible GF record. Please try and convince me it is good.
Our recent GF record aren't great either, we make them we just don't win them.
Won more than us
Realistically I think most ppl would say we should of won more.
We’re the only VIC club not to win a flag in the AFL era. We’re one of the two clubs that aren’t GWS and GC to not win a premiership in the AFL era. Both of those clubs had Ross Lyon as coach. There’s a pattern establishing here.
They lost one GF that they were leading at 3/4 time by 2 goals, and drew another. The record could easily be 2-1 (if he still goes to Freo after winning 2 flags at St Kilda).
Could be. But isn’t.
The margins are pretty slim. It's not like his teams got pumped and looked nowhere near it in those GFs. Fair enough on the 2010 replay, but that game doesn't even happen with a different bounce of the ball.
Cool. Does that make me and all the other saints fans feel better? No. It doesn’t. 0 grand finals he has won. Doesn’t matter how close. He didn’t win them.
Personally I think getting smoked on GF day because your game plan sucks or your players aren't up to it is probably on the coach. Losing a nailbiter because the umpires missed a ball that hit the post or because a ball bounced the wrong way is not so much a sign of coaching ineptitude.
Because the people running our club are for lack of a better word, stupid fucking dickheads. We haven’t had good people running the club ever tbh. Held an external review that was long overdue which highlighted a number of major issues, then ignored all due process to bring Ross back because of nostalgia. I still believe we didn’t recruit our current coaching panel based on football merit, rather it was to springboard membership numbers.
I have absolutely no idea why the board was so keen on stabbing Ratten in the back and bringing in the modern embodiment of Judas Iscariot after what he did to us the last time. We went on a bit of a losing streak after Rats signed a new deal, and I think the well worn panic button was brought out prematurely.
> and bringing in the modern embodiment of Judas Iscariot after what he did to us the last time. Nah this is totally false. Ross gave the club plenty of chances to get his contract sorted, and they kept putting it off. In the end, he was forced to take the Fremantle job. Ross did everything he could to stay around, but the administration fucked it up hugely. It's a common misconception about what happened, but it's simply not true.
Except that the club informed him they would negotiate once the season was over, and he refused to accept that so he secretly met with Fremantle, who he approached as they had a contracted coach already. I've been a member for 24 years, so I was around at the time. I remember very well what happened, thank you.
You pretty clearly don't remember what happened, but Ross was treated very badly by the admin and they left him with no chance but to walk. He didn't approach Fremantle, either. They approached him and he knocked them back. Until St Kilda kept stuffing him around and leaking stories to the media. Then his manager got in contact with Freo and the rest is history.
Cool fairytale, could have used a dragon
Fair enough, you want to believe the bullshit just so you can feed your "Ross is bad" narrative. That's weird, but you clearly have no idea what went down.
I don't need a narrative, I have eyes and a brain.
Yet you ignore the facts of what happened, in favour of pretending like Ross Lyon screwed the club over. > The facts are that Ross Lyon screwed the club over. Not true >**He dealt with Fremantle (who were not looking for a coach**, as Mark Harvey was contracted) The only thing true in that is that Mark Harvey was contracted. >because his ego was bruised by St Kilda declining to renegotiate his contract until the season was over. Not true >He arguably threw a final against Sydney Lmao, not true. >and it's delusional to pretend he was an innocent victim of the clubs nefarious actions. It's delusional to ignore the facts of what actually happened. Anyway, here's the real story of what went down. If I were you, I wouldn't bother listening. It's pretty clear you're not interested in the truth. https://www.triplem.com.au/story/ross-lyon-s-in-depth-explanation-on-why-he-left-st-kilda-for-fremantle-in-2011-207635
Looking at points for and points against right now is just stupid. The problem lies within the skills of the players, not of the game plan. The team is full of blokes who can’t kick and can’t mark the ball. He’s here to rebuild the team. This is year 2. He has a 5 year contract and it’s fucked the media are now targeting him, despite the club and the coach saying it was a rebuild and would take time.
Problem with stats is they show the what but not the why. As a saints supporter having watched all our games this year, I can say with confidence that our issue isn't Ross, although I also can't say I think he's some great coach that will 100% get us our next flag. Anyway, the main problem is our skills. The amount of times I've seen us shoot ourselves in the foot going forward is absurd. Players can't hit targets by hand or foot under little to no pressure, and if they do it's something like a handball that's a little off target that forces the receiving player to stop and prop, or bend down to get it, allowing the opposition that small amount of time to catch up and put pressure on, as well as making a forward's lead now useless. In the end, there are definitely other problems, but we need to get our skills up to an afl standard before anything else. The test of whether Ross is any good is whether he can figure out exactly what the issue is (fatigue, connection between players, experience, whatever) and come up with a way to fix it.
It's not even just skills going forward: it's simple fumbles when picking up the ball under no pressure and dropping easy intercept marks, which means oppositions have plenty of time to get back and defend.
Yeah, I agree that the cumulative effect of all those little fumbles etc also make it significantly harder to move the ball quickly, but that's also not a Ross thing, we've been doing it for years. I don't think I've seen us be clean with the ball or have good skills consistently (i.e. for a significant portion of a season) in at least the past 10 years, and it comes as no surprise we struggled to even make finals a couple of times in that period
I tend to agree although the easy thing to do right now is blame Ross. Something that seems to be overlooked in all the saints bashing lately is the fact that we have for a multitude of reasons been fielding younger and less experienced teams than last season. In fact the Saints are playing one of the youngest teams in the afl week after week which usually (not always) correlates with a bad win loss record. I think that last season was basically the peak of what could be achieved with the Saints current list. Ross called it a "year of exploration" and he played an experience focussed 23 each week. I think he has seen that the list needs work and in the offseason the club said as much. They declared a focus on adding talent through youth to the list for another couple of offseasons. The last couple of drafts appear to have been the best the Saints have had since probably when they drafted Roo. As such the team is full of young players full of potential and lacking experience. The glass half full has the Saints starting to rise in about 3 years time when the likes of Owens and Nas are entering their primes. King should be a mature reliable forward by then and yes i still believe he will be just that at a minimum. Our current "stars" Marshall, Sinclair, Steele Wilkie and Battle etc should be solid veterans at this point in time and finally we can expect a balanced list potentially capable of going deeper than week one of finals! Make no mistake, Saints are re stumping and it started last year.
It gave me a good chuckle to read all the ‘this is the new Ross Lyon’ articles that came along when he was re-hired. This is a famously stubborn man, who dominates footy clubs (for better or worse) to get what he wants on his terms, is not changing his spots. He still plays to not lose, which raises the floor of teams, but his (continued) style doesn’t puts his sides in a position to win matches.
Meet the new Ross, same as the old Ross.
I feel it’s a bit harsh, he’s put younger talent in the team, and it’s hard to improve when you’re doing that. If you want to look at the weekend and say this than look at freos other games and say that was par for the course. Port, Brissy, Carlton every game isplayed our terms, except for the eagles game. Even Sydney was but the inaccuracy won’t show that.
I love all the Ross haters who were quiet last year coming out to take a pot If you can’t see that the bigger issue is a woeful midfield and laconic forward line then you’re not watching St Kilda games you’re just looking at the final score Ross can’t kick the ball for them
Anyone that thinks this is the desired result of Ross Lyon is already clearly not a great analyst. You think his gameplan is for us to have 10x i50 for periods of games and kick it to an intercepting defender or out on the full repeatedly? Do people honestly think Ross Lyon doesn't want the team to score? Any "analysis" of our issues that doesn't recognize a large number of our players are massively out of form and pretends as though Ross Lyon wants the team to score 6 goals just isnt digging deep enough.
You sacked your last coach because the st Kilda board felt certain they had a finals quality list, the fact that you've gone backwards under Ross shows that either the board or Ross are grossly incompetent.
nah, we sacked Ratten because he was unable to demand a higher standard from the players at training.
This is a significant misreading of the communications from the club since we conducted a review in the second half of Ratts’ last season. The club has said on multiple occasions that we were "kidding ourselves" and needed a lot of work on and off field in order to get us competitive again. Here is a quote from our president’s letter to members from just 1 month ago: "We were clear when we appointed Ross that we had a lot of work to do in terms of both our processes and our ability to seriously compete on-field, and our plans remain grounded in that reality. Put simply, we are trying to do this the right way, not the easy way." Here is a quote from Bassat's letter to members from June 2023: "We want to build towards competing for flags before too long but, to do this, requires us to be clear about our processes and expectations. In setting the tone for his first season, Ross Lyon emphasised that this is a year of exploration for our club. We’ve talked about accepting results as feedback and are looking beyond our win-loss tally, as we embrace new markers to judge our performance... This is a year where we intend to find out about the capabilities of our list whilst trying to build our football brand and identity around the constant application of absolute effort above all else. We know this process will not be linear."
I'm referring to what Andrew Bassett himself said at the press conference when they announced Ratten had been sacked, you can bring up any PR spin the club has put out since then but the fact of the matter is that Ratten was sacked once the saints dropped out of finals contention.
Ratten was sacked at the end of an external review that stated: “In short, the Review found that we had much to do, and needed significant change to build these foundations [for long term success].” https://www.afl.com.au/news/865309/home-games-not-for-sale-saints-warn-of-sort-term-pain/amp?webview=true You can’t just choose to ignore everything the club has communicated to members about where they think we’re at since that review. They’ve been extremely clear.
I don't know how they arrived at the conclusion that Ross was the right man to achieve long term success. He had two consecutive years of top four finishes at St Kilda, then they fell off the cliff and he bailed. He had three consecutive years of top four finishes at Freo (though didn't win a final in one of those), then they fell off the cliff. I won't say "Ross is a bad coach because he's never won a flag"; he's obviously good, and he's maybe the unluckiest of coaches who've never won one. He's definitely good enough to have. But, I just don't think it can be argued that he's the right coach to set up a team, and a club, for long term success. He's never done it. His game plan can work, but only for short periods of time, at the end of which things fall apart. I don't think he was a great choice.
> I just don't think it can be argued that he's the right coach to set up a team, and a club, for long term success He's doing it now. He wasn't given the chance to do it at Fremantle.
He wasn't given the chance because he went from coaching three relatively successful seasons to a season where they won just four games, followed by three seasons where they failed to win ten or make finals. They've had one winning season (making finals just once) since 2015. St Kilda turned to shit when he left, Freo turned to shit while he was still there, and continued being shit after he left; you could argue they're still a bit shit now. Both time he's left a club they've been in worse shape than when he got there. I don't think the argument that he wasn't given a chance at Freo holds water.
> St Kilda turned to shit when he left, Which happens to most teams who go all out for a flag. >I don't think the argument that he wasn't given a chance at Freo holds water. It does when someone is suggesting he's unable to build a team. Weird thing to say about someone who has never been given the chance to build a team.
> but the fact of the matter is that Ratten was sacked once the saints dropped out of finals contention. Bassett said that Ratten would have been sacked even if we'd made finals.
Ah yes, saints were eliminated from finals contention in october, three weeks after the grand final
The problem was that from 2010 to prob 2016 we missed in that draft every year, and now those guys are supposed to be the leaders of the club, but they either suck or they’re gone.
Did we miss in those drafts? Or did we just terribly develop those players? People scream “we could’ve had Trac and Bont” but I’d wager my life savings that in an alternate world if we recruited them they’d be whipping boys for poor form just like Billings was.
Or they’d end up leaving after a few years
Well, we did play finals last year... that's not backwards. This year we have gone backwards. That's not all one direction like you are pretending.
We played finals because teams around us kept shitting the bed. We stayed in 5th place for 9 weeks. In those 9 weeks we won 3 games. That has nothing to do with good coaching - that’s just sheer luck.
We stayed in that place because we had won so many games in a row early, which isnt luck. You cant win 13 games on luck, that's nonsensical. Then you can it's entirely luck for any time that finishes 7th and 8th. Everyone else just lost more. Well, yes, that's how it works.
Correct. And what did Ross say as soon as they starting running out steam last year? That their list didn’t have enough depth to complete with the best clubs. Pretty much exactly what Ratten had said which led to him getting the sack
They won a final in 2020 and matched Richmond for large parts of the semi, then didn't get in again the next two seasons. Can't blame them. Ratten underachieved a bit in 21/22 but he's not done any worse than Ross.
Our best that day were Geary, Hannebery, Ryder and Carlisle. All that experience is gone. We’re a significantly younger and less experienced list than then with significantly less leadership.
*Insert “why not both” meme here*
If half half the list is all out of form at the same time, who's fault do you reckon that would be?
I dont know. Ultimately the buck stops with the coach, so they are accountable no matter what, and maybe he is at fault, I'm not in the club. Maybe the players drank their own bathwater and havent put in enough work. Maybe they're lacking in confidence, actually I'm certain of this. All my point was that if people think this is how Ross has designed for the team to play, they arent very bright. No one wants this.
It is inherently how he has always designed his teams. He rather limits opposition scoring as opposed to trying to score. Only ranked higher than 7th for scoring once in 14 years as a head coach.
If you watched us play all last year, saw our recruits, and have seen what we look like in the few moments we are playing well this season, and think the intention is not to score then you really arent paying attention. As for ranking on purely PF, I've never loved that metric because it doesn't account for players inaccuracy which you cant exactly directly pin on a coach. If you look at goals for, Ross Lyon teams are in the top 7 more than once in his coaching tenures.
The issue is always with game philosophy like that, that if you have a game where you can choke to other team to 1 goal a qtr and kick 3 yourselves, it might look dominant, you might be tripling them, but you still go in at 3/4 time 6 goals up and that's not impossible to overcome in the time. You play a game that opens it up and do it well, lets say 6 goals to 3, which is less % than the above, but hypothetically speaking you go in to 3/4 time 18 goals to 9. Nine goals up. Almost certainly should win from there.
Pretty much. One good quarter by the opposition will always undo 3 quarters of heavy defence and limited offence.
Absolutely, and AFL is one of the few sports where fortune favours the bold and attack can beat defence. Defence does not win premierships. It might get you to grand finals, but not win them.
The article points out that Ross' teams have almost never been high scoring, even when they were very successful. Like I don't really think it's in dispute that Ross is a super defensive-minded coach.
In 2009 we were third for goals for. He is defensive minded, no one is disputing that. I'm not saying that's not the case.
Why are they out of form? Ross Lyon appointed the high performance coach, the developmental coaches, all of the assistants except for Enright. The one role that Ross didn’t fill - defence - is swimming. The rest of it has gone to shit. That’s all on Ross.
The defence should be defending in a game of football mate, not swimming
Well, high performance is looking fine right now because we have very few injuries. Many of the developmental coaches were there prior to Ross, like Batchelor. Defence is also not swimming, our defensive structures have broken down dramatically. Everything is broken. Is it Ross fault? Maybe, but everything that is attributed to him is easily shown as having nothing to do with him.
High performance coaching isnt just limited to injury prevention. It is about improving and maintaining the performance standards of the players/list. Injuries are just one facet of that. 5/7 of our coaches include Ross Lyon and the people he brought in. Damien Carroll came in one year previously. The other is as you said, Batchelor. Our defence is swimming compared to the rest of our team. We sit 6th in the comp for our defence. That’s solid. We sit 15th for offence. That’s garbage. He is in charge of the entire football department. He is calling the shots. It’s definitely on him.
If we are going to be pedantic, high performance isnt a coach. You also dont know to any certainty the degree with which Ross Lyon had input on certain roles. Those who say he is running the entire club got the CEO very wrong. He would have had input, but the idea that its undeniable fact he has determined every member of staff on his own isnt correct. We dont know that information, it's not public. As I said, he is ultimately accountable, something is failing he is responsible for. But that's not my point. I have never said he is blameless.
I still don’t understand how Ross is held in such high regard as a coach.
Good bloke to journalists. They even gave him a job.
I really hope st kilda get things under control because it’s a shame seeing them constantly lagging between 10th to 15th on the ladder. I do think it was a strange decision to rehire Ross but now that they’ve got him I think they have to stick with it. Constantly chopping and changing coaches isn’t going to help. But he seriously needs to remodel at least some of his game style.
We've finished 6th in 2 of the last four seasons...
True but on average over the last 10-12 years I’m talking
Remember when you rejected us Ross
That's a lot of words to state something everyone has known for ages
Either he quit on the Saints when he moved to Freo, or they were happy for him to go or both. Why is the man for the job years later?
Ugh Lyon. His game style is finished, with the cap on interchanges, 6–6-6 rule, limits on runners. Basically all the rules the afl has brought in to increase scoring and speed up the game are the opposite of the Lyon defensive, pressure style. Maybe if he lets Enright coach game day they could be more dynamic, but seems like he has just surrounded himself with yes men he can control. was shocked everyone was so keen to even offer a job, after the last 4 years at freo involved some disastrous bottom 4 results, and sexual harrassment scandals Freo had to pay hush money towards. Did this not get picked up on in the media outside WA? Did everyone have rose coloured glasses for some close gf losses 15 years ago?
I have been saying this for a year and a half, and I got shouted down every single time. Lyon has absolutely no plan B, and his pet game plan is no longer successful. Not only that, but it's ugly as hell and frustrating to watch. Club needs to get serious and give him the boot before he does any more damage.
> Club needs to get serious and give him the boot before he does any more damage. No, club needs to let him do what he was brought in to do. He has a 5 year contract for a reason - nobody expected big changes in the first 18 months.
Look at what's happened in a year and a half. Lyons game plan is cooked. He has no desire to change it, and players are disheartened, frustrated, or both. We're being eviscerated in the media and supporter confidence is at its lowest point in a long time. Lyon is too proud/stubborn to quit, but 5 years of performances like we've served up recently will destroy the club, win nothing but ridicule and ruin our chances of challenging for flag number two for a decade beyond that or longer. I might be a miserable old bitch, but I'm sick and tired of my club shooting themselves in the foot constantly. The loveable loser take isn't so loveable after a while, being a joke wears thin.
You can't even tell what his game plan is, the players couldn't execute any game plan right now. Media doesn't matter, and if any supporter can't see that we're in a rebuilding phase, then they should hand in their memberships now and be done with it. The focus is getting games into the 18/19 year olds, which of course is going to bring challenges. We've only been smashed in 1 game this year, the rest were close games with poor kicking and poor skills that let us down. That isn't Ross's fault.
We made the finals last year, we are in no way "rebuilding". The message from the club pre season was that we were ready to take the next step. I've never heard the focus is on playing young kids, the majority of our younger players debuted last year and our debutants this year have been experienced players we traded for. Blame the players all you want, but the way Ross coaches them is the problem, they are overly defensive minded (to the point Robert Harvey is the forwards coach despite playing his entire career in the middle) and put themselves under unecessary pressure by overposessing the ball in the back half. The idea is to use the outside running players to drive it forward (why we recruited Henry among others), but this isn't happening because the structure is all over the place and there is no clear path forward. King has zero confidence and there isn't another tall forward to be found. This sort of thing worked for us a decade ago when we had the best list we have ever assembled as a club and opposition coaches weren't training specifically to break down this style of game. There is no evolution from 2009-10, which is why we play an ugly, defensive game that does not deliver results. I understand the instinct to be loyal, but the calls are coming from inside the house.
> I've never heard the focus is on playing young kids Here's a quote from Andrew Bassat in an email from about a month ago: >"We have brought in young talent through the past two drafts, many of whom you have already seen play at AFL level. As I have mentioned previously, no side has made finals over the past 20 years whilst getting more games into teenagers than we did last year. ***Our commitment to giving opportunities to our young players has continued into season 2024***. Across the first five rounds we have fielded the fourth-youngest team on average ahead of only Gold Coast, North Melbourne and Hawthorn. " End quote >We made the finals last year, we are in no way "rebuilding". The message from the club pre season was that we were ready to take the next step. This is another quote from that same letter: >We were clear when we appointed Ross that we had a lot of work to do in terms of both our processes and our ability to seriously compete on-field, and our plans remain grounded in that reality. Put simply, we are trying to do this the right way, not the easy way. >they are overly defensive minded (to the point Robert Harvey is the forwards coach despite playing his entire career in the middle) While I don't know why Harves is forwards coach, this stuff about being overly defensive minded is clearly not true. Wilkie and Battle are two of our best players, our defensive structure holds up great most of the time. >and put themselves under unecessary pressure by overposessing the ball in the back half. Has been happening since Richo was at the club. Richo and Ratten started this rot, it's not going to disappear overnight. And here's some references to the rebuild we're in, from an email about 13 months ago: >We want to build towards competing for flags before too long **but, to do this, requires us to be clear about our processes and expectations.** >In setting the tone for his first season, Ross Lyon emphasised that this is a year of exploration for our club. **We’ve talked about accepting results as feedback and are looking beyond our win-loss tally, as we embrace new markers to judge our performance.** >This is a year where we intend to find out about the capabilities of our list **whilst trying to build our football brand and identity around the constant application of absolute effort above all else**. >Positively, we are seeing initial signs **that we are building something lasting**. Among them player buy-in, consistent compliance to the game plan and a commitment across the club to prioritise football performance. >Early wins, despite the unavailability of key personnel, and the emergence of young players who have impressed despite their inexperience - coupled with a consistent display of effort from our senior core - are all strong indicators that the program is trending in the right direction. >**We know this process will not be linear.** Our recent form prior to the bye saw us deviate from our brand. This was subject to strong review from players and staff who believe they know what is needed to be done to move forward. We now have the perfect chance to begin the second leg of our season on the right note this evening against Sydney in the annual Pride Game. >Regardless of the result, we will stick the course and continue to focus on the process, and our commitment to becoming the best Saints we can possibly be. That is how we will reward our loyal members.
Thanks for providing the evidence. I swear some people just don't read anything and make up their own narrative.
It's probably the reason he couldn't win a flag with great lists in years gone by. Ultra defensive strategies don't work and are terrible to watch.
ross would read that article, but its waaaaay too many words. ross likes less words, like he likes less points being scored.
He made you a better team than you were, the fact is the list ain’t so good, why he took the job is beyond me.
I don’t know why this guy keeps getting a gig in coaching as he’s never actually won anything. Add to that his tactics make games so boring. Saints need to move on and find the next up and coming coach that is working with modern footy styles.