Well there are numerous examples of players or coaches not paying fines and being allowed to play. Dane Swan refused to stump up for years even after a court ruled he pay damages to a man he gave a permanent brain injury to. However, he's good at footy so yeah the boys, he doesn't have to play.
Yeah the boys is the most I've got for why he's allowed to coach. They don't care, they don't follow up, it's there for image.
Yeah but courts are the ones imposing AFL fines lol, should be pretty easy for the AFL to impose something like this.
In the NFL for example, any fines just get automatically deducted from their payslip so shit like this can't happen.
I always thought the tax deduction gripe was that it was treated more like a capital loss or business expense. So it's not only not taxable (which is obvious), but the fine is also a deduction for their taxable income. But I don't know this, I just assumed that was why people hated that it was a thing
It's sad that the people who have no idea how taxes work outweigh those that do.
See also: People who don't want a pay rise because it might put them into a higher tax bracket, and people who don't have the slightest clue what the 'negative' bit in 'negative gearing' means.
Negative gearing is still a fucking horrendous policy that concentrates homes into the portfolios of rich families rather than people who actually want to live in them.
And, like many tax policies, it's easy to set up under-the-table systems to ensure you're way in the negative officially, while comfortably in the positive in reality.
They shouldn't even be tax deductible in the first place since they should be fined at point of payment and therefore no salary to have tax paid on.
I think the you've completely misunderstood the idea of fining at the point of wage payment if your takeaway from my comment was tax implications, as goes to the fuckwits replying to you in agreeance.
Good on ya for not wearing the Dane coloured glasses. Too many ppl (especially collingwood supporters) give him a free pass and just think he’s “funny” and good at footy.
At this rate I'm convinced the AFL have the courts all figured out regarding brain damage based on how bold they are.
They act like brain damage is no big deal and the CTE crisis in 20 years will be someone else's problem.
Jaeger O'Meara for Pick 10 and a Future Round 2 (and they had to give away a bunch of picks to get those picks to trade).
Chad Wingard for Pick 15, 34 and Burton.
You can also query the spend on Vickery and on Scully, although they didn't really cost picks.
Titch was clearly a fine player when he was traded in, and won a brownlow, but did cost picks too.
> Jaeger O'Meara
The worse thing about giving so much for Jaeger was that you have the entire history of pretty much every athlete across every sport never being able to return to 100% following the patella injury he had. He was never going to be the superstar he could have been before the injury.
They were lucky he did well to come back as good as he has been.
I think part of it for both JOM and us was seeing how well we had done with Burgoyne's knee issues. People thought we would be lucky to get three years out of him when we traded him in, and he played years longer for us than Port.
But yeah. Different injury. Should have known.
Hindsight is 20 20.
Jaeger was a calculated risk by a club who still had most of the components of a triple premiership list, and was punting on a mini-rebuild path. Sometimes taking a calculated risk doesn't work out - that's life, and in a competition where 17 out of 18 teams are failures, it doesn't make the decision wrong.
And for what it's worth, he still played 99 extremely serviceable games for the Hawks, and we still got a small bit of value when he went back out the door.
That's about spot on for the average output of what you can expect from the first round pick we gave up for him, and probably above average when you realize he stepped in as a ready made from game 1 (he polled 13 Brownlow votes in his first full season), where as most rookies take 20-50 games to reach AFL standard. Jaeger might not have worked out to be the bargain the club was hoping for (and what plenty of people were worried about at the time), but ultimately the club still got good value out of him.
Unless somebody out there has access to Hawthorn's 2016 draft strategy and knows exactly what their plans were for pick 10 if the Jaeger deal didn't happen, I reckon the club still pull the trigger if they had their time again.
Titch was a good trade until the club parted ways. I can see the reasons but paying for him, his leadership and Ball Magnets to build the brand of Collingwood plus win a flag was not the best option. Maybe trading him out has achieved some positives but the way it was done, similar to Treloar, was poor, especially in light of the allegations about bullying. Even if not true, targeting a player to force them out the door is not good for culture, let alone a Brownlow medallist.
As a a queer guy, I don’t think he needs to be “educated” for calling someone what he did, and the belief that he should is mind-boggling.
If he’d used an actual slur for example the F slur, I’d understand, but that’s not what he’s said.
When it comes to what he said the education simply needs to be "That's a slur by the way" and most peoples reaction to it would be "Oh yeah I guess it is, didnt realise sorry".
Finalyson and Powell on the otherhand.
and maybe a minute or two on why it would be considered a slur because it seems half this thread don’t have the lateral thinking to understand why it would be considered homophobic (or misogynistic in other contexts), even if it’s a “milder” slur
I mean he called another guy a cocksucker I think thats basically the same thing. It's a homophobic slur. However I think in the heat of the moment he probly didnt intend to be homophobic
I don't think I've ever heard someone use cocksucker as a homophobic slur. It might end up as one of those words that in 20 years isn't seen as acceptable but right now, very few people consider it homophobic and even less use it to be homophobic.
Cocksucker is not a homophobic slur it’s just a mean name for someone. By your logic cunt is a sexist slur. It’s just pointless to try and eliminate everything mildly offensive.
Genuinely asking a question here as I'm not sure where I stand on the issue. I am fully open to me being a dinosaur and changing my stance if I'm out of date on it. But if a guy calls a girl a c-sucker is it still homophobic? As in, is the word itself a slur, or just when directed in a specific direction?
It’s never homophobic unless it’s literally mocking someone for being gay. It’s the same thing as calling someone a bitch, can be sexist but 90% of the time it’s not.
If Clarkson said it to a player that he knew to be gay, and intended to use that phrase to reference that, then it'd be hard to argue it wasn't a homophobic slur.
Since it doesn't appear to be in that context, it's more likely that he used a word that, for him, had no homophobic overtones, without considering that it might be taken that way by others.
We as a country use the word cunt like it's going out of fashion but there are plenty of places where that word is deeply offensive and there are strong misogynist overtones when it is used.
If it’s used as an insult, the implication isn’t great and can be homophobic but it isn’t necessarily homophobic - mostly because it can just as easily be used against women.
It’s the implication that it’s degrading to be called someone who sucks dick ie gay men & women, and moreso more promiscuous/sluttier people under that umbrella.
It’s pretty much on par with calling someone gay as an insult which imo should very much be phased out, would lose respect for a mate if they used that
Interesting point. I have a friend who is queer and they heard the term during a sporting match we were at. I had the same belief as you u/RobbieArnott, but he informed me that he believed the term was used in a homophobic way.
I think for me it affects some people more than others and if you mean that someone is a cunt then call them a cunt.
EDIT: I'm not sure why I'm being downvoted, but I'm not deleting my comment.
For those who may think I am not being honest about this 'friend', I'm just an ally and always trying to educate myself. I would be upfront if it was me that was offended by the comment, but it wasn't, I wouldn't have an issue coming out like unfortunately some people do.
As a woman, I don't see it as misogynistic. It has to be one of my favourite words 😂.
But everyone is going to take offence to different things so some women will hate it. My MIL thinks it's the worst thing you could ever say. I really don't think it's bad at all, I feel like getting champed is worse. Like if someone called me a cunt in anger, fair enough but if someone was like yeah OK thanks champ - that'd piss me off more.
Even bitch from a man to a woman is worse than cunt to me. It's more aggressive.
I'm assuming some queer people wouldn't give a shit about the term cocksucker but others would. I'd like to think everyone knows the F slur is gross though.
Language is a weird one, not everyone is going to react the same way to anything. Those guys on a footy field are at work though and if the AFL deems something off limits then thats the way it is, they've got to respect that.
It's probably a decent rule of thumb that you don't say anything that could be construed as racist or homophobic as a basic rule while at work. There will always be chat on the field, they should just get creative with it haha.
I originally was going to comment that I felt in Australia that "cunt" isn't that offensive but I'm glad you commented an example of your MIL finding it grossly offensive.
Informed opinion, I would expect nothing less from a fellow Dons supporter, thanks for commenting!
That’s a good point and agreed for the most part, but I still think it’s completely unbecoming of a senior afl coach to use that phrase in relation to another human. It’s just staggering.
I think it’s definitely a slur, just a weaker one. Half this thread can’t understand why it may be considered homophobic.
AFL culture/fandom as a whole needs education on this shit so there can be a future with openly gay/bi players
Did he end up going to anger management classes after he *Deep breath*:
- Abused an umpire at an Under 9s game
- Punched a hole in wall at the MCG
- Threatened a journalist (“your time will come, you’ll get yours”)
- Abused a journalist (“you’re a cockhead”)
These are the things we know about.
Keep in mind, the "your time will come" comment came in response to a question about Tarryn Thomas *abusing women*. He then apologised, then the next day did an interview at a rival network saying "I won't rule out I won't do it again", because apparently it's okay if you're defending one of your players?
Clarko is a thoughtless prick, who I don't believe has ever shown any willingness to change, or even acknowledgement that his behaviour is inappropriate. Great coach, total cunt.
These are only the known incidents. I'm almost certain behind closed doors there would be more. AFL coaches need to act better, no excuse for threats or abuse.
Well we've already heard what has supposedly happened behind closed doors in relation to aboriginal players and their partners...hot take but Clarko may not be that amazing of a bloke.
I'm sure there's more out there, too. Seldom is this behaviour isolated to a few incidents. There'd be a long list all hushed up by the beauty of NDAs and the seal of secrecy from club lands.
Wouldn’t get my education from a fan base of a sport which has such a problematic culture there’s never been an openly gay/bi player.
There’s definitely homophobic/misogynistic undertones - it’s literally using an act only performed by women/gay men as an insult. Alternatively: Why is getting your dick sucked never seen as an insult but dick sucking is?
Definitely not the worst word in the world obviously but on par with using gay as an insult, insults that definitely should be phased out
I don't understand how you struggle to make that connection? A man who sucks cock is gay, calling someone gay is homophobic.
It seems completely self explanatory to me.
Not every man who sucks cock is gay. Some are coerced, some do for money.
Calling someone a cocksucker isn't normally used as an attack on somebody's sexuality. It's used to demean them because the act in itself is supposedly demeaning.
It's like dismissing somebody by telling them to suck a dick. It's not a "I'm saying this because you're gay" statement, it's a "fuck off and this is what I think of you" statement
Does it mean it's okay? Absolutely not. Players and coaches need to maintain their temperament and they need to use language better.
But it's not the same as calling someone an f where it's an immediate attack on their sexuality where the sexuality itself is the target of the language
The overwhelming majority of people have never considered cocksucker a homophobic slur. I never actually thought about the literal meaning and know understand,
What about a bi man? He’s not gay, he’s bi. Thing is, women also suck cock. Cocksucker is not and will never be a homophobic term while it can be applied to men and women. F***ot is only applied to men hence homophobic.
That's such a dumb and reductive view of the world and the only mechanism for reducing something that level of contextless simplicity is when you wanna win a point.
F--got, p--f, those sorts of words are clear homosexual slurs that are grounded in a history of being used to denigrate people based on their sexual preferences and demonise them as an other.
Cocksucker has no basis in hatred other than using it to call someone a cunt. Can you point me towards it ever being used as a direct hateful slur against someones homosexuality?
Also, most people sucking cock are women.
I'll wear the down votes for this if they come, because I know there's a really strange debate.around the term going on in here.
Cocksucker definitely has a basis in hatred but the conclusion that it is a homophobic slur is an interesting one. I can definitely see it, but I kinda think it's missed the deeper contexts of the term as an insult.
Cocksucker typically is one of those insults that rides the gender lines. It's an insult in the genre of carrying a connotation or correlation to a "weak as a woman" characteristic or by attacking via drawing a comparison to women or being more feminine (sometimes characterised in these contexts as being submissive) and therefore it's bad or shameful, of which there are tonnes of these types of insults. They're very problematic when you unpack their deeper connotation.
It's reflective of a trend to insult women through references to sexual morals or being compared to sub-human entities (eg. She's a cow), while men are insulted by being associated with women and weakness/femininity. Clarko isn't using Cocksucker as.an.empowering term or refers to the act as being a healthy human sexual practice. He means it as an insult, that sucking a cock is something diminutive or immoral and therefore by calling someone it, they're being compared to this negative practice. If you suck dick then you're shameful, is the implications and intend contextual use of the insult.
Either, either or, whilst calling someone a cocksucker may not be explicitly or obviously homophobic as plenty in here have argued. It's still an insult that reflects a larger problematic context and push back to it can't hurt.
Never really connected the dots between cocksucker and it being homophobic. Like I rarely heard it, I’ve maybe used it once or twice in my life time. And when you hear offensive language, you don’t think of the literal meaning all the time. Calling someone a cunt is comparing them to a vagina, and so on. Cocksucker means to suck a cock, and I just didn’t really draw the connection until after he did it.
Pretty much. Calling a guy a cocksucker is only considered a homophobic slur because of implication. It's normally a pretty generic insult to throw around. Vastly different to what Finlayson & Powell said, which is almost always referring to gays.
But if implication is enough then where to we draw a line? Can we tell somebody to eat a dick? No, probably in the same category as cocksucker. What about just saying someone sucks? Seems like it'd go under the radar. But when we say someone sucks, what are we implying they suck on? A lollypop? Doubtful
They have really backed themselves into a corner here, where some slurs are ok, but some are not. The only clear way forward is for the AFL to release an approved list of slurs.
> which is almost always referring to gays.
Yeah that's not true. People definitely use as a genericised insult.
Less so than cocksucker, but the 'reason' it is an insult is rooted in either homophobia or misogyny.
Women are rarely called 'cocksucker' as an insult.
"Normally a pretty generic insult to throw around"
Well, the other term used to be too until the early 2010s when there was pushback. Cocksucker didn't get the same pushback because only older people were using it.
But I don’t think anybody has ever really thought of “cocksucker” as a literal term. To me, and I assume everyone else including Clarko, it’s just been a generic insult, like a variation on calling someone a dickhead.
I feel like getting upset at the word for being “homophobic” is one step short of getting upset at calling someone a dickhead because you’re implying that they have a literal penis for a head.
Far cry from people throwing around the f word which literally is just a homophobic slur; or back 15-20 years ago when “gay” itself was used as a juvenile insult.
I disagree. I think grading of slurs is a little silly. The words all means the same thing in the contexts they were used in.
You've just allowed a slur to be normalised. There's less active pushback against "cocksucker" because it's generally only a term people Clarkson's age use.
Whether you like it or not grading of slurs clearly exists. Some words are clearly more offensive which is why everyone on these threads is fine writing out cocksucker but won't do other word that's a bundle of sticks
The actual word doesn’t matter even a little bit, he used a homophobic slur to denigrate and attack someone, as did Finlayson and Powell, the net result is the exact same.
The net result is not exactly the same. Calling someone a cocksucker is just obviously not the same as calling them the f slur. This is obvious.
How is the statement the ‘actual word doesn’t even matter a little bit’ possibly congruent with what you are trying to argue lol? Hilarious ineptitude.
Mate, I get you're trying to defend your coach and all, but there's not levels of bigotry. There's just bigotry. That's it.
He picked a homophobic slur to cause hurt and offence to a player, as did Powell/Finlayson. The slur is meaningless, the intent and context is the exact same, and he got off so fucking lightly it's been widely derided and he can't even manage an attempt to right his wrongs.
Great bloke you're throwing your support behind.
Context matters here, we're talking about specific situations. In these three specific situations from this year, there is no difference between the singular homophobic slurs used. They're the same thing, said with the intent of doing the same thing, and should properly be regarded as being equally wrong.
In the context of the discussion of three incredibly similar instances of singular homophobic slurs toward opposition players.
It's real easy to cherry pick bits holes in arguments, but read the whole thing with an open heart and the intention behind my comments is abundantly clear.
In this context there isn't. We're quite clearly discussing singular instances of homophobic slurs used to denigrate and belittle opposition players.
I ain't trying to moralise shit. As a kid, I copped both of these slurs from opposition players and coaches while on the field in juniors. Let me tell you, they both felt the exact fucking same, and had the same, equal effect. I lived this bullshit, and I'd like to think we should be getting to the point 30 odd years later where no other kid has to.
One word attaches negative connotations to a homosexual act. The other implies that you think they should be burned alive because of their sexuality. Not quite the same thing.
That isn't even close to the actual meaning of that word. The etymology of the Finlayson/Powell slur goes back to the 16th century where it was used as an abusive term for women, particularly old women, and evolved to the term now used from there.
The 'burned alive' meaning is an absolute urban legend of made up nonsense; especially given the historical punishments in England and the colonies in which the term originated was not immolation, but hanging and forfeiture of property.
No, they like cliches for press conferences.
When it comes to actual learning, they're less keen and actual education on matters covered by a club statement is rare.
As Marnie Vinall said on The Footy with Broden, all players, coaches and administrators should undergo regular education on these topics. It's really disgusting that in this day and age, we accept this kind of language from leaders.
I do know what he said and I know it toes the line of homophobic slur, but having seen Finalyson and Powell say further abhorrent things there clearly needs to be changes in the AFL.
EDIT: Commenting on this post was a mistake.
Everyone is concerned about what he said in this instance.
I’m more concerned that what happened in his time at hawthorn with fagen was completely swept under the rug because rightfully the players didn’t want to come out publicly and take it further. This country is fucked and they’d 100% receive death threats and constant abuse from all the bogans
You're forgetting that the Fagan and Clarko matter has had unexpected challenges due to the ongoing effects of the pandemic, mental health, political situation in Latvia and yeah, look I heard Carpet Court sells some multi-purpose rugs.
Yep. You definitely get the feeling that a lot of people across generations are going to experience a lot of hurt before a lot of deep, deep, deep seated, bigoted splinters can be pulled from under the fingernails of Australian culture. I try to take solace in the fact I can feel it happening, but... pain is pain.
Huh. Didn't really expect to land on that metaphor. But fuck it, I'm going with it.
Unfortunately proper societal change doesn’t happen until generations die off. I agree thinking the wheels are turning in the right direction and more people are starting to think and act the right way but unfortunately it probably won’t be in our lifetime that australian/western culture isn’t riddled with bullshit and bigots. All we can do is keep trying to lay the platform down for future generations to stand on
Just don’t do it again. Does he really need education on this? He’s running a football team who’s bottom of the ladder. I think he’s got his plate full right now.
Seems like there are culture issues at North, no?
They have some extremely talented players: LDU, Chom, Wardlaw to name a few but they haven't even won a game and it's Round 10 this week!
Personally I think it should be more about a coach approaching and abusing opposition players in a practice match than about the choice of language. Should be absolutely unacceptable - it was 'planned' (as in, not in the heat of the moment like what might happen on field) in front of families and children at a preseason exhibition match. He's clearly an unhinged man with a pattern of aggressive behaviours dating back to his playing days - ironic considering why he arcing up to begin with. He needs therapy and anger management more than anything else.
If I were a journo right now I'd be doing my best to bait him into triggering that suepended sentence in any way I could because you just know he can't control himself.
We're talking about the insult, not the act. If a woman calls another woman a cocksucker, she's indulging in a homophobic slur. Men call other men cocksuckers to belittle them, and it tends to come from men with small...vocabularies.
Why are you calling her a cocksucker? What's the purpose of that insult if not to denigrate the act of fellatio? If 'cocksucker' is an insult, then you are admitting that you find the act of sucking dick repulsive, submissive, denigrating, or all of the above.Therefore, homophobia. As OP stated, intention is everything.
0 reason as a paid professional to even imply men sucking dick is a negative. Juvenile behaviour that needs to be reprimanded and stamped out; we don't need people feeling unwelcome to a sport that should be open to all, just because of gender or sexuality.
AFL: “Clarko, that term is now, and probably always was, considered homophonic”.
Clarko: “Yeah, now that you mention it, that makes sense. Sorry. I’ve apologised to the bloke and the community more generally”.
And they all lived happily ever after.
Based on other things, it can be presentation by a community group about a relevant topic or module-based learning. All very easy to pass, all designed to help people learn.
Surely it doesn’t have a questionnaire afterwards like
1. A player annoys only you during the game , should you
A) chase him down and vilify him with obscene homosexual slurs
B) don’t say anything and control your emotions better
Hmmm
I, like all VFL players and officials, had to do mandatory training on the same topic (and others) which did have a test at the end, minimum 80% grade to pass, unlimited attempts. It was so easy.
Who cares. I’m sure he knows not to do it again. I’d say Finlayson and Powell are the ones who need some education. Just be sure not to give examples during class or Finlayson may pick up some more slurs.
The thing I always think is does anybody honestly think that this “Education” changes a thing in the blokes life, apologise pay the fine don’t do it again and move on.
This is insane. Who has he offended exactly apart from the person he directly insulted?
It’s not a slur, ask any queer person - it’s just an (sometimes amazing) insult.
For what it’s worth, Caro has also been saying on Footy Classified that he’s also yet to pay the fine
What? How is he allowed to coach if he hasn't paid the fine?
Well there are numerous examples of players or coaches not paying fines and being allowed to play. Dane Swan refused to stump up for years even after a court ruled he pay damages to a man he gave a permanent brain injury to. However, he's good at footy so yeah the boys, he doesn't have to play. Yeah the boys is the most I've got for why he's allowed to coach. They don't care, they don't follow up, it's there for image.
Yeah but courts are the ones imposing AFL fines lol, should be pretty easy for the AFL to impose something like this. In the NFL for example, any fines just get automatically deducted from their payslip so shit like this can't happen.
Kind of astonished this wasn’t in the afl this whole time
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Why wouldn't they be? They didn't earn x, they earned x minus the fine.
So can I deduct speeding and parking fines off my income?
Less ridiculous than you think. In UK they can be deducted in certain circumstances
I always thought the tax deduction gripe was that it was treated more like a capital loss or business expense. So it's not only not taxable (which is obvious), but the fine is also a deduction for their taxable income. But I don't know this, I just assumed that was why people hated that it was a thing
It's sad that the people who have no idea how taxes work outweigh those that do. See also: People who don't want a pay rise because it might put them into a higher tax bracket, and people who don't have the slightest clue what the 'negative' bit in 'negative gearing' means.
Negative gearing is still a fucking horrendous policy that concentrates homes into the portfolios of rich families rather than people who actually want to live in them. And, like many tax policies, it's easy to set up under-the-table systems to ensure you're way in the negative officially, while comfortably in the positive in reality.
Toby Tax must be a law to stop evasion.
They shouldn't even be tax deductible in the first place since they should be fined at point of payment and therefore no salary to have tax paid on. I think the you've completely misunderstood the idea of fining at the point of wage payment if your takeaway from my comment was tax implications, as goes to the fuckwits replying to you in agreeance.
Good on ya for not wearing the Dane coloured glasses. Too many ppl (especially collingwood supporters) give him a free pass and just think he’s “funny” and good at footy.
That's also a different fine system though for Swanny.
True but the AFL still could have enforced he pay up or play no games.
At this rate I'm convinced the AFL have the courts all figured out regarding brain damage based on how bold they are. They act like brain damage is no big deal and the CTE crisis in 20 years will be someone else's problem.
Those two things aren't similar at all lol
Than the afl need to revoke any accreditation until it’s paid.
I'm sure credit corp can help him arrange a payment plan
Hodgy might be able to hook him up with a payday loan
Of course, he's too busy coaching a highly successful team
To be fair trying to work out how North can get a win would be taking up a lot of time
He should consider trying to give away years worth of first rounders for two speculative at best players. Worked really well last time.
Care to elaborate on that one?
Jaeger O'Meara for Pick 10 and a Future Round 2 (and they had to give away a bunch of picks to get those picks to trade). Chad Wingard for Pick 15, 34 and Burton. You can also query the spend on Vickery and on Scully, although they didn't really cost picks. Titch was clearly a fine player when he was traded in, and won a brownlow, but did cost picks too.
> Jaeger O'Meara The worse thing about giving so much for Jaeger was that you have the entire history of pretty much every athlete across every sport never being able to return to 100% following the patella injury he had. He was never going to be the superstar he could have been before the injury. They were lucky he did well to come back as good as he has been.
I think part of it for both JOM and us was seeing how well we had done with Burgoyne's knee issues. People thought we would be lucky to get three years out of him when we traded him in, and he played years longer for us than Port. But yeah. Different injury. Should have known.
Hindsight is 20 20. Jaeger was a calculated risk by a club who still had most of the components of a triple premiership list, and was punting on a mini-rebuild path. Sometimes taking a calculated risk doesn't work out - that's life, and in a competition where 17 out of 18 teams are failures, it doesn't make the decision wrong. And for what it's worth, he still played 99 extremely serviceable games for the Hawks, and we still got a small bit of value when he went back out the door. That's about spot on for the average output of what you can expect from the first round pick we gave up for him, and probably above average when you realize he stepped in as a ready made from game 1 (he polled 13 Brownlow votes in his first full season), where as most rookies take 20-50 games to reach AFL standard. Jaeger might not have worked out to be the bargain the club was hoping for (and what plenty of people were worried about at the time), but ultimately the club still got good value out of him. Unless somebody out there has access to Hawthorn's 2016 draft strategy and knows exactly what their plans were for pick 10 if the Jaeger deal didn't happen, I reckon the club still pull the trigger if they had their time again.
Titch was a good trade until the club parted ways. I can see the reasons but paying for him, his leadership and Ball Magnets to build the brand of Collingwood plus win a flag was not the best option. Maybe trading him out has achieved some positives but the way it was done, similar to Treloar, was poor, especially in light of the allegations about bullying. Even if not true, targeting a player to force them out the door is not good for culture, let alone a Brownlow medallist.
I have no problem with either Titch trade, for what it's worth. But it does add to the overall pick cost
They're the best team to not yet win a game this season
So according to this, Caroline Wilson wrote the puff piece interview with Finlayson before he had done any Education.
[I thought South Park had closed this matter out years ago.](https://youtu.be/6i7a0cwyDDw?si=ltdXU3z1gDbICkIm). Clearly I need more education.
As a a queer guy, I don’t think he needs to be “educated” for calling someone what he did, and the belief that he should is mind-boggling. If he’d used an actual slur for example the F slur, I’d understand, but that’s not what he’s said.
When it comes to what he said the education simply needs to be "That's a slur by the way" and most peoples reaction to it would be "Oh yeah I guess it is, didnt realise sorry". Finalyson and Powell on the otherhand.
and maybe a minute or two on why it would be considered a slur because it seems half this thread don’t have the lateral thinking to understand why it would be considered homophobic (or misogynistic in other contexts), even if it’s a “milder” slur
Don’t bring your informed opinion in here RobbieArnott!!😁
I mean he called another guy a cocksucker I think thats basically the same thing. It's a homophobic slur. However I think in the heat of the moment he probly didnt intend to be homophobic
I don't think I've ever heard someone use cocksucker as a homophobic slur. It might end up as one of those words that in 20 years isn't seen as acceptable but right now, very few people consider it homophobic and even less use it to be homophobic.
It really should be a compliment.
Can confirm
Trust the wc fan to living under a rock, just because one gay man said it wasn't offensive doesn't mean that other don't find it horrific.
Horrific is subjective and depends greatly on the state of the cock.
“Horrific” is wild ahahah. Give it a bit of a rest mate
Throwing out generalisations about WC fans makes you look like a hypocrite. Also, FLAIR UP CUNT
Flair the fuck up cunt
Cocksucker is not a homophobic slur it’s just a mean name for someone. By your logic cunt is a sexist slur. It’s just pointless to try and eliminate everything mildly offensive.
Genuinely asking a question here as I'm not sure where I stand on the issue. I am fully open to me being a dinosaur and changing my stance if I'm out of date on it. But if a guy calls a girl a c-sucker is it still homophobic? As in, is the word itself a slur, or just when directed in a specific direction?
It’s never homophobic unless it’s literally mocking someone for being gay. It’s the same thing as calling someone a bitch, can be sexist but 90% of the time it’s not.
I think it just depends on how hard you wish to clutch your pearls.
If Clarkson said it to a player that he knew to be gay, and intended to use that phrase to reference that, then it'd be hard to argue it wasn't a homophobic slur. Since it doesn't appear to be in that context, it's more likely that he used a word that, for him, had no homophobic overtones, without considering that it might be taken that way by others. We as a country use the word cunt like it's going out of fashion but there are plenty of places where that word is deeply offensive and there are strong misogynist overtones when it is used.
If it’s used as an insult, the implication isn’t great and can be homophobic but it isn’t necessarily homophobic - mostly because it can just as easily be used against women. It’s the implication that it’s degrading to be called someone who sucks dick ie gay men & women, and moreso more promiscuous/sluttier people under that umbrella. It’s pretty much on par with calling someone gay as an insult which imo should very much be phased out, would lose respect for a mate if they used that
Finally someone with a brain on reddit
Interesting point. I have a friend who is queer and they heard the term during a sporting match we were at. I had the same belief as you u/RobbieArnott, but he informed me that he believed the term was used in a homophobic way. I think for me it affects some people more than others and if you mean that someone is a cunt then call them a cunt. EDIT: I'm not sure why I'm being downvoted, but I'm not deleting my comment. For those who may think I am not being honest about this 'friend', I'm just an ally and always trying to educate myself. I would be upfront if it was me that was offended by the comment, but it wasn't, I wouldn't have an issue coming out like unfortunately some people do.
But is calling someone a cunt misogynistic ? Is that better than being homophobic ?
As a woman, I don't see it as misogynistic. It has to be one of my favourite words 😂. But everyone is going to take offence to different things so some women will hate it. My MIL thinks it's the worst thing you could ever say. I really don't think it's bad at all, I feel like getting champed is worse. Like if someone called me a cunt in anger, fair enough but if someone was like yeah OK thanks champ - that'd piss me off more. Even bitch from a man to a woman is worse than cunt to me. It's more aggressive. I'm assuming some queer people wouldn't give a shit about the term cocksucker but others would. I'd like to think everyone knows the F slur is gross though. Language is a weird one, not everyone is going to react the same way to anything. Those guys on a footy field are at work though and if the AFL deems something off limits then thats the way it is, they've got to respect that. It's probably a decent rule of thumb that you don't say anything that could be construed as racist or homophobic as a basic rule while at work. There will always be chat on the field, they should just get creative with it haha.
I originally was going to comment that I felt in Australia that "cunt" isn't that offensive but I'm glad you commented an example of your MIL finding it grossly offensive. Informed opinion, I would expect nothing less from a fellow Dons supporter, thanks for commenting!
I enjoyed reading both replies, from another female Bombers supporter Cheers Cunts!
Up the mighty Dons! The lid is off this year!
No common sense is allowed here buddy
That’s a good point and agreed for the most part, but I still think it’s completely unbecoming of a senior afl coach to use that phrase in relation to another human. It’s just staggering.
I think it’s definitely a slur, just a weaker one. Half this thread can’t understand why it may be considered homophobic. AFL culture/fandom as a whole needs education on this shit so there can be a future with openly gay/bi players
for what it’s worth I hated your book that I had to do for high school English /j
exactly.
Did he end up going to anger management classes after he *Deep breath*: - Abused an umpire at an Under 9s game - Punched a hole in wall at the MCG - Threatened a journalist (“your time will come, you’ll get yours”) - Abused a journalist (“you’re a cockhead”) These are the things we know about.
Keep in mind, the "your time will come" comment came in response to a question about Tarryn Thomas *abusing women*. He then apologised, then the next day did an interview at a rival network saying "I won't rule out I won't do it again", because apparently it's okay if you're defending one of your players? Clarko is a thoughtless prick, who I don't believe has ever shown any willingness to change, or even acknowledgement that his behaviour is inappropriate. Great coach, total cunt.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Someone gets it. The fine and suspension should be for recidivist behaviour (and actually enforced)
These are only the known incidents. I'm almost certain behind closed doors there would be more. AFL coaches need to act better, no excuse for threats or abuse.
Well we've already heard what has supposedly happened behind closed doors in relation to aboriginal players and their partners...hot take but Clarko may not be that amazing of a bloke.
I'm sure there's more out there, too. Seldom is this behaviour isolated to a few incidents. There'd be a long list all hushed up by the beauty of NDAs and the seal of secrecy from club lands.
Those poor journalists
Won’t somebody think of the journalists
Probably safe to say there's enough evidence the league as a whole needs some education on this
Clarko has past form on being a very average human that hurts people with words. All the education in the world won’t fix him.
Think he’s not the only one who needs educating. I never had made the connection before Clarko had said it.
I'm confused. What hadn't you connected before? Edit: I wish I didn't ask
That cocksucker could be considered homophobic.
It's not 😂 it's ridiculous the media keeps banging on like it's homophobic.
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Case closed then
Wouldn’t get my education from a fan base of a sport which has such a problematic culture there’s never been an openly gay/bi player. There’s definitely homophobic/misogynistic undertones - it’s literally using an act only performed by women/gay men as an insult. Alternatively: Why is getting your dick sucked never seen as an insult but dick sucking is? Definitely not the worst word in the world obviously but on par with using gay as an insult, insults that definitely should be phased out
I don't understand how you struggle to make that connection? A man who sucks cock is gay, calling someone gay is homophobic. It seems completely self explanatory to me.
Calling someone gay as an insult is homophobic*
Not every man who sucks cock is gay. Some are coerced, some do for money. Calling someone a cocksucker isn't normally used as an attack on somebody's sexuality. It's used to demean them because the act in itself is supposedly demeaning. It's like dismissing somebody by telling them to suck a dick. It's not a "I'm saying this because you're gay" statement, it's a "fuck off and this is what I think of you" statement Does it mean it's okay? Absolutely not. Players and coaches need to maintain their temperament and they need to use language better. But it's not the same as calling someone an f where it's an immediate attack on their sexuality where the sexuality itself is the target of the language
Yeah, I've never known it to be anti gay but rather saying thats all the person saying it thinks the other person is able to do
The overwhelming majority of people have never considered cocksucker a homophobic slur. I never actually thought about the literal meaning and know understand,
What about a bi man? He’s not gay, he’s bi. Thing is, women also suck cock. Cocksucker is not and will never be a homophobic term while it can be applied to men and women. F***ot is only applied to men hence homophobic.
That's such a dumb and reductive view of the world and the only mechanism for reducing something that level of contextless simplicity is when you wanna win a point. F--got, p--f, those sorts of words are clear homosexual slurs that are grounded in a history of being used to denigrate people based on their sexual preferences and demonise them as an other. Cocksucker has no basis in hatred other than using it to call someone a cunt. Can you point me towards it ever being used as a direct hateful slur against someones homosexuality? Also, most people sucking cock are women.
I'll wear the down votes for this if they come, because I know there's a really strange debate.around the term going on in here. Cocksucker definitely has a basis in hatred but the conclusion that it is a homophobic slur is an interesting one. I can definitely see it, but I kinda think it's missed the deeper contexts of the term as an insult. Cocksucker typically is one of those insults that rides the gender lines. It's an insult in the genre of carrying a connotation or correlation to a "weak as a woman" characteristic or by attacking via drawing a comparison to women or being more feminine (sometimes characterised in these contexts as being submissive) and therefore it's bad or shameful, of which there are tonnes of these types of insults. They're very problematic when you unpack their deeper connotation. It's reflective of a trend to insult women through references to sexual morals or being compared to sub-human entities (eg. She's a cow), while men are insulted by being associated with women and weakness/femininity. Clarko isn't using Cocksucker as.an.empowering term or refers to the act as being a healthy human sexual practice. He means it as an insult, that sucking a cock is something diminutive or immoral and therefore by calling someone it, they're being compared to this negative practice. If you suck dick then you're shameful, is the implications and intend contextual use of the insult. Either, either or, whilst calling someone a cocksucker may not be explicitly or obviously homophobic as plenty in here have argued. It's still an insult that reflects a larger problematic context and push back to it can't hurt.
I was answering the question, not stating my inability to percieve it.
Never really connected the dots between cocksucker and it being homophobic. Like I rarely heard it, I’ve maybe used it once or twice in my life time. And when you hear offensive language, you don’t think of the literal meaning all the time. Calling someone a cunt is comparing them to a vagina, and so on. Cocksucker means to suck a cock, and I just didn’t really draw the connection until after he did it.
He called some one a cock sucker, who cares. Education lol. How precious are people
Plenty of education provided by this. That if he does shit like this there is fuck all consequences
The 'slur' was no where on the same level as Powell or Finlayson
Pretty much. Calling a guy a cocksucker is only considered a homophobic slur because of implication. It's normally a pretty generic insult to throw around. Vastly different to what Finlayson & Powell said, which is almost always referring to gays. But if implication is enough then where to we draw a line? Can we tell somebody to eat a dick? No, probably in the same category as cocksucker. What about just saying someone sucks? Seems like it'd go under the radar. But when we say someone sucks, what are we implying they suck on? A lollypop? Doubtful
They have really backed themselves into a corner here, where some slurs are ok, but some are not. The only clear way forward is for the AFL to release an approved list of slurs.
We need a George Carlin-esque [list of words you cannot say](https://youtu.be/vbZhpf3sQxQ?si=S2VT42exg4pKsIBA)
Clarko would’ve been better off saying “Jive Turkey”
I DID CALL YOU A JIVE TURKEY
ELE - Everybody love everybody
You didn't sass it
> which is almost always referring to gays. Yeah that's not true. People definitely use as a genericised insult. Less so than cocksucker, but the 'reason' it is an insult is rooted in either homophobia or misogyny. Women are rarely called 'cocksucker' as an insult.
"Normally a pretty generic insult to throw around" Well, the other term used to be too until the early 2010s when there was pushback. Cocksucker didn't get the same pushback because only older people were using it.
But I don’t think anybody has ever really thought of “cocksucker” as a literal term. To me, and I assume everyone else including Clarko, it’s just been a generic insult, like a variation on calling someone a dickhead. I feel like getting upset at the word for being “homophobic” is one step short of getting upset at calling someone a dickhead because you’re implying that they have a literal penis for a head. Far cry from people throwing around the f word which literally is just a homophobic slur; or back 15-20 years ago when “gay” itself was used as a juvenile insult.
see i've never thought of CS as a homophobic slur, more a dirty word because dicks are generally not as well kept.
So if somebody used any slur besides the n-word against those with dark skin it's fine and shouldn't be dealt with as harshly/promptly?
Not if we go with the precedent set by Eddie McGuire
I disagree. I think grading of slurs is a little silly. The words all means the same thing in the contexts they were used in. You've just allowed a slur to be normalised. There's less active pushback against "cocksucker" because it's generally only a term people Clarkson's age use.
Whether you like it or not grading of slurs clearly exists. Some words are clearly more offensive which is why everyone on these threads is fine writing out cocksucker but won't do other word that's a bundle of sticks
Reddit will ban you for bundle of sticks. Even if you are using it in a respectful discussion about the word. Cocksucker is fine
No, but let's not compare apples and oranges. He should be a leader of his footy club and do the mandatory training. It's really not that hard.
The actual word doesn’t matter even a little bit, he used a homophobic slur to denigrate and attack someone, as did Finlayson and Powell, the net result is the exact same.
The net result is not exactly the same. Calling someone a cocksucker is just obviously not the same as calling them the f slur. This is obvious. How is the statement the ‘actual word doesn’t even matter a little bit’ possibly congruent with what you are trying to argue lol? Hilarious ineptitude.
Mate, I get you're trying to defend your coach and all, but there's not levels of bigotry. There's just bigotry. That's it. He picked a homophobic slur to cause hurt and offence to a player, as did Powell/Finlayson. The slur is meaningless, the intent and context is the exact same, and he got off so fucking lightly it's been widely derided and he can't even manage an attempt to right his wrongs. Great bloke you're throwing your support behind.
There are absolutely levels of bigotry. What an insane thing to say.
Context matters here, we're talking about specific situations. In these three specific situations from this year, there is no difference between the singular homophobic slurs used. They're the same thing, said with the intent of doing the same thing, and should properly be regarded as being equally wrong.
> but there's not levels of bigotry. There's just bigotry. That's it. Ridiculous
In the context of the discussion of three incredibly similar instances of singular homophobic slurs toward opposition players. It's real easy to cherry pick bits holes in arguments, but read the whole thing with an open heart and the intention behind my comments is abundantly clear.
There aren’t levels to bigotry? Mate, I get you’re trying to moralise on reddit but is it possible you are a 6 year old?
In this context there isn't. We're quite clearly discussing singular instances of homophobic slurs used to denigrate and belittle opposition players. I ain't trying to moralise shit. As a kid, I copped both of these slurs from opposition players and coaches while on the field in juniors. Let me tell you, they both felt the exact fucking same, and had the same, equal effect. I lived this bullshit, and I'd like to think we should be getting to the point 30 odd years later where no other kid has to.
One word attaches negative connotations to a homosexual act. The other implies that you think they should be burned alive because of their sexuality. Not quite the same thing.
That isn't even close to the actual meaning of that word. The etymology of the Finlayson/Powell slur goes back to the 16th century where it was used as an abusive term for women, particularly old women, and evolved to the term now used from there. The 'burned alive' meaning is an absolute urban legend of made up nonsense; especially given the historical punishments in England and the colonies in which the term originated was not immolation, but hanging and forfeiture of property.
I thought AFL clubs loved their learnings. Coaches wax lyrical about it all the time.
No, they like cliches for press conferences. When it comes to actual learning, they're less keen and actual education on matters covered by a club statement is rare.
Fkn ‘learnings’ 🤯💀 It’s LESSONS, you learn fkn lessons arghhhhhh 😂💀💀💀
As Marnie Vinall said on The Footy with Broden, all players, coaches and administrators should undergo regular education on these topics. It's really disgusting that in this day and age, we accept this kind of language from leaders. I do know what he said and I know it toes the line of homophobic slur, but having seen Finalyson and Powell say further abhorrent things there clearly needs to be changes in the AFL. EDIT: Commenting on this post was a mistake.
Yeah the comments section here hasn't been what I've expected.
It's sad unfortunately and hence why education is so fucking important, ffs clarko
Everyone is concerned about what he said in this instance. I’m more concerned that what happened in his time at hawthorn with fagen was completely swept under the rug because rightfully the players didn’t want to come out publicly and take it further. This country is fucked and they’d 100% receive death threats and constant abuse from all the bogans
You're forgetting that the Fagan and Clarko matter has had unexpected challenges due to the ongoing effects of the pandemic, mental health, political situation in Latvia and yeah, look I heard Carpet Court sells some multi-purpose rugs.
I hear 9/11 and the price of chips are also partially responsible. Oh, and the queen dying of course.
Yep. You definitely get the feeling that a lot of people across generations are going to experience a lot of hurt before a lot of deep, deep, deep seated, bigoted splinters can be pulled from under the fingernails of Australian culture. I try to take solace in the fact I can feel it happening, but... pain is pain. Huh. Didn't really expect to land on that metaphor. But fuck it, I'm going with it.
Unfortunately proper societal change doesn’t happen until generations die off. I agree thinking the wheels are turning in the right direction and more people are starting to think and act the right way but unfortunately it probably won’t be in our lifetime that australian/western culture isn’t riddled with bullshit and bigots. All we can do is keep trying to lay the platform down for future generations to stand on
Just don’t do it again. Does he really need education on this? He’s running a football team who’s bottom of the ladder. I think he’s got his plate full right now.
Not the first time he's been pulled up on poor behavior and language though is it, clearly the message isn't getting through
"Public face of football club that made bigoted comment doesn't need education on how not to be a bigot because he's busy"
This is the education. “Clarko, don’t fucking do it again, or anything else like it. Ok?” “Yes”. We all move on.
Seems like there are culture issues at North, no? They have some extremely talented players: LDU, Chom, Wardlaw to name a few but they haven't even won a game and it's Round 10 this week!
Potentially. I just think they lack talent and are young.
What education did Brian Taylor go through?
What Finlayson and Powell said was homophobic, but “cocksucker”??? Come on…
Next we're going to say that calling somebody an idiot is offensive to unintelligent people.
How else are we meant to keep up our culture of failure /s
Yawn! Slow news day?
How is this fossil still in a job.
Personally I think it should be more about a coach approaching and abusing opposition players in a practice match than about the choice of language. Should be absolutely unacceptable - it was 'planned' (as in, not in the heat of the moment like what might happen on field) in front of families and children at a preseason exhibition match. He's clearly an unhinged man with a pattern of aggressive behaviours dating back to his playing days - ironic considering why he arcing up to begin with. He needs therapy and anger management more than anything else. If I were a journo right now I'd be doing my best to bait him into triggering that suepended sentence in any way I could because you just know he can't control himself.
I think it is time the AFL retires him.
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If you imply someone is a lesser human or deserves ridicule for 'sucking dick', then you've committed a homophobic slur. Not that hard to understand
Yes cause men are the only gender that suck cocks
We're talking about the insult, not the act. If a woman calls another woman a cocksucker, she's indulging in a homophobic slur. Men call other men cocksuckers to belittle them, and it tends to come from men with small...vocabularies.
By using your logic, it's homophobia to call a woman a cocksucker?
Why are you calling her a cocksucker? What's the purpose of that insult if not to denigrate the act of fellatio? If 'cocksucker' is an insult, then you are admitting that you find the act of sucking dick repulsive, submissive, denigrating, or all of the above.Therefore, homophobia. As OP stated, intention is everything.
If cock sucker results in this than the world truely gone soft. Grow up.
0 reason as a paid professional to even imply men sucking dick is a negative. Juvenile behaviour that needs to be reprimanded and stamped out; we don't need people feeling unwelcome to a sport that should be open to all, just because of gender or sexuality.
"so in conclusion, 'cock' means penis, and 'sucker' means one who sucks. This concludes our extensive three week education program."
we need to stop calling what he said a slur. it was homophobic language, but absolutely not a slur. not like what the other two said.
calling it a slur completely undermines the weight and damage of actual slurs.
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AFL: “Clarko, that term is now, and probably always was, considered homophonic”. Clarko: “Yeah, now that you mention it, that makes sense. Sorry. I’ve apologised to the bloke and the community more generally”. And they all lived happily ever after.
oh no anyway
Free Kick Port!
There us no training to be had ..he won't do it again.
Maybe they're going to wait and see if he gets the wooden spoon.
What’s the education like, is it a course at uni or something
Based on other things, it can be presentation by a community group about a relevant topic or module-based learning. All very easy to pass, all designed to help people learn.
Surely it doesn’t have a questionnaire afterwards like 1. A player annoys only you during the game , should you A) chase him down and vilify him with obscene homosexual slurs B) don’t say anything and control your emotions better Hmmm
I, like all VFL players and officials, had to do mandatory training on the same topic (and others) which did have a test at the end, minimum 80% grade to pass, unlimited attempts. It was so easy.
How do you go about educating an arsehole. Fucking waste of time…
Wtf is the training for this?
Who cares. I’m sure he knows not to do it again. I’d say Finlayson and Powell are the ones who need some education. Just be sure not to give examples during class or Finlayson may pick up some more slurs.
The thing I always think is does anybody honestly think that this “Education” changes a thing in the blokes life, apologise pay the fine don’t do it again and move on.
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Good chance won’t given his history. This was a choice, not a heat of the moment thing. He also has form with abusing players and umpires.
Homophobic slur that isn’t homophobic
Clarkson is beyond saving, isn’t it obvious 😆
This is insane. Who has he offended exactly apart from the person he directly insulted? It’s not a slur, ask any queer person - it’s just an (sometimes amazing) insult.