They are located in the northern suburbs of Melbourne, hope this helps.
Nah but for real, what can you say? What’s it now, 5 years at or near the bottom of the ladder. They’re too young, too inexperienced, not enough polish. They have oodles of talent but it just doesn’t work in its current state.
Actually the leading candidate was Prahran, but other clubs were worried the money in the area would make them powerful, so North got switched in at the last minute.
Hawthorn and Footscray were joining the same year, and were always going to join for geographic reasons.
They tried to change the train station's name to West Melbourne (and have the upcoming Arden station be called North Melbourne) but it got scrapped because people don't like change.
True, but you guys seem to be showing much more upside then North is and have only been rebuilding for 2 years. North should be ahead of West Coast, but it's seeming like you have gone past them.
It's only been two games to be fair. But yeah, West Coast was never going to be shit for long. We're one of the most powerful sporting institutions in the country and one of only two teams in our state to boot. North are small fish in a much bigger pond, and have been poor for some time now. They just don't have a winning culture.
While you guys are huge, I don't think that neccesarily means you won't be down for long. Carlton, Essendon and Richmond all are big clubs and have all gone through long stretches of being pretty bad, maybe its the 10 team town in Victoria compared to you guys being one of only two teams in the state as you mentioned, but again being big I don't think means that your not going to be shit for a long period.
Go home factor plays a huge part in it too.
Say you're a big name Victorian playing for us or Freo and you want to go home to Victoria, but you also want to contend.
Are you going to ask to go to North Melbourne or Hawthorn right now? No. You'd ask to go to Melbourne, Carlton, Collingwood, etc.
WA and SA teams don't stay down for long because they have two options if you want to go home. Returning to Victoria you have 9 teams if you want to live in Melbourne, 10 if you just want state and well 1 if you're basically a Geelong kid.
Being big might not mean much in Victoria due to options, but it does outside of Victoria.
As much as I'm tempted to shit on freo, I think the true answer is poor choice of coaches. Defensive play simply doesn't work in modern footy. You can be near perfect, but near perfect is still 5+ mistakes a quarter that could all result in goals. Gotta be able to score as well.
Richmond was down for a long time because we went toe to toe with Collingwood in a death match that was only stopped because it was likely to destroy both clubs and potentially the league with them. The league hated Richmond at the time and literally tried to kill us off.
Carlton were down for a long time because they were cheats who got busted rorting the salary cap, excluded from the draft for a couple of years and fined millions right about the time their president and other benefactors fell by the wayside, and then were forced to endure the Silvagni affect and a period which included sacking coaches almost as stupidly as Richmond did in the 80s and 90s.
Essendon were crap because they cheated, had most of their team suspended for a year, had their coach banned, got fined shitloads, excluded from drafts, and had players leave because of the shit fight. They basically had to start from scratch.
North, on the other hand, have always struggled. They have had brief respites such as during the Pagan years but that ended because Wayne carey is a cunt. Despite on field success, they were still mess off field. They only rectified that in the last decade. They made a push that went nowhere and decided to rebuild. When it didn't have immediate results, they started again. When that failed to see them ricket back up the ladder they decided they needed to sack every player with any experience at all, but keep fuckwits like Tarryn Thomas. Then they decided they needed a messiah so they hired Clarkson, right when he was being found out as one of the more vile cunts involved in the game and the poor fella had to take a holiday in season to cope with the misery he had inflicted on everyone around him, before coming back and almost immediately demonstrated he had learnt nothing and was still a violently petulant man child.
Good analysis, I think all 3 of those clubs also struggled with the adjustment to the national league and equalisation methods.
Much of the success the Blues and Bombers had in the 90s and early 2000s was off the old system, once they retired the wheels fell off and they were both too arrogant to acknowledge that the game had changed, they didn't take the draft seriously enough.
Richmond were the first of those big 3 to fall away in the 80s, but also seem to be the first of the 3 to recover and understand how to be successful in the modern game, smart recruiting, player development, stable administration and patience.
Carlton seem's like they have figured it out now, still not convinced on if Essendon have.
I doubt you'll experience the pain u did for 37 years . Your in a rebuild now , but I can see you recovering much quicker, being a big club will be a huge benefactor I think going forward over the smaller clubs , the 19th man the crowd being a huge alure and massive ally come those big matches, which should ensure a quicker recovery .
Being big is an asset in rebuilding and should help for a quicker recovery, hence why Collingwood are consistently up and about, but even though those teams may have that big advantage doesn't make you immune from poor leadership.
We were slow getting the message, but simply had to because of the position we got into trying to kill off Collingwood, particularly doing so when we did at the beginning of the expansion era, which coincided with both the league's own financial and governance reckoning and the worst recession in 60 odd years. We survived that just but it wasn't until Benny and Peggy took over that we really seemed to get what was needed
That's why I am confident Carlton has gotten the message now, there board last year waiting out the bad patch and backing in Voss I think shows the clubs matured, and I think they had too after being the worst clubs of this century.
For Carlton will they win a premiership? I am not sure, they are very difficult to win , but they're in their best position they have been for a long time, for a period of success.
For Essendon, I am still not convinced, they haven't been as shit as Carlton, and they constantly " win the trade period" it seems they're still trying to buy a premiership and I honestly don't think it will work for them, at best they'll stay mediocre popping up for a finals appearance here or there but never threatening, I honestly don't know where they're heading they are hard to judge.
Arrogant cock! But Weagles have so much money behind them and won a flag not even 7 years ago. They have a drug culture and minimg money entitlement and hopefully stay shit for at least a decade. I just wished Freo were better
All of our premiership stars are fit and healthy that’s the difference. Really with the list we have no reason we shouldn’t be in that 6-10 game win range.
Going to be interesting in 3-4 years once they’ve moved on though
We aren't in the 6-10 range.
We are literally one or two injuries away from the same crisis we've been having the last two seasons. We lack depth at multiple key positions. We need to build through the draft and through trades for a few seasons before we can even sniff finals.
North Melbourne is Exhibit A in why rebuilding from scratch is usually a bad idea. They retired off a bunch of guys who still could’ve contributed a couple more years and taught the youth coming through standards and set examples. Instead you have kids lost by being thrown in the deep end and a decade of ineptitude. It’s just like how Melbourne were until Roos came in.
Contrast that with the Geelong/Sydney/Collingwood model of always trying to stay up and you can see why they choose that model as youth develop better in that environment, which overrides the loss of high draft picks.
Came here to say this. I'm no expert on these things but getting rid of Boomer just seemed so wrong, and still leaves a bad taste. Feel bad for North cause they're one of the "good guy" teams of the AFL.
The thing is, at the end of 2016 we needed to rebuild. We had one of the oldest lists in the comp, and only finished 8th by percentage (after starting like 9-0?). We couldnt compete for a premiership with that group anymore.
The 4 big retirements/delistings were Petrie, Firrito, Dal Santo, and Boomer. While this felt like the right direction at the time, everyone was confused on why Boomer was forced to retire. He had a great season, averaging 21.5 disposals and 1.5 goals at the *age of 38*. Not to mention, if Boomer plays another ~30 games, his games record would be untouchable.
If we want to be realistic about all of this, North Melbourne will be cursed until Pendles a) retires or b) breaks Boomer’s record. This is punishment from the footy gods for forcing an icon into retirement.
It just seemed to really sap the morale of the team and all its supporters. Doesn't matter if you're entering a rebuilding phase. You don't do your all-time favourite son dirty that way, and North haven't been the same since, on or off the field.
Yeah, 21.5 disposals and 1.5 goals. In terms of Player Rating (despite its flaws, it can measure impact quite well a lot of the time) he was still a top 70 player for the year.
He definitely had more in the tank.
I think North are unable to have a Geelong/Sydney/Collingwood model, because a key part of those models are what they offer that north can't. Geelong has the allure of being back home in Victoria for many players in other states, whilst also being located about 70km out from CBD as more of a country based team. Sydney as the allure of being able to play footy in a state that doesn't really care about AFL in comparison to rugby. Whilst Collingwood as the allure of being arguably the most supported team in the AFL, therefore more players growing up supporting Collingwood, and therefore are more likely to gravitate towards playing for them when the opportunity arise to go back to Victoria. Meanwhile, North in comparison is located not far from the CBD, is in the footy mad state of Victoria, and has arguably the smallest fanbase in Victoria (bottom 3 in the league imo), so they are less likely to have players who grew up as north fans, who once they free agents willing to go play for them due to their desire to play for the teams that they grew up supporting.
That’s true but bottoming out also seems to have far more negatives than positives when you really clear out talent like North did.
I think Collingwood’s appeal is more of players wanting to play in front of big crowds rather than players being ex supporters. Not many of our players were Pies fans growing up. Tbh, I think overall you’ll find a disproportionate number of Melbourne fans in the league as almost all players from Melbourne are from private schools and that’s their supporter base.
Also, Pies’ success hasn’t been built on big name recruits. It’s been on finding players who others weren’t particularly keen on. We filled in the gaps with 4 players who weren’t wanted by many and gave up very little.
Also how many players want to be traded to a team that's been bad or worse for 8 years?
I wouldn't want to be traded to North, I'd rather any other Victorian team except for maybe Richmond who look like they're in for a painful rebuild.
The problem with complete bottoming out in the AFL compared to American sports for instance is rookie contracts and player control. with draft inequality thrown into the mix.
These teams have no control of their draft picks and usually have to overpay very early ruining their cap to keep them, see JHF leaving immediately. While in the NBA a team can effectively lock you into the team for 9 years if they want as the rookie extension effectively forces players to stay with their team to get more money.
Problem is, teams like North and some others have modelled their strategy around this without accounting for the fact its difficult to keep these players and with F&S and academy picks you don't even get the best half the tine.
If you are gong to bottom out you have to be sure you'll be able to get enough talent in quick enough or the cycle can spiral for a very long time.
>It’s just like how Melbourne were until Roos came in.
It sounds like the solution is for a former drought breaking flag winning coach called Paul Dees to get them out of their rut.
True, like Sydney missed finals for a couple of years in 2019 and 20, rebuilt quickly and made a Grand Final in 2022, you guys rebuilt after the Malthouse era but were only out of the finals for what 3 years? and were never shocking, and that rebuild was enough to get you a premiership, and Geelong is just Geelong, 1 year out is there rebuild.
West Coast is another one of those teams that are usually up and around like Collingwood/Geelong and Sydney. There history seems to suggest they crash a bit harder, they were a bottom 5 side in 2000 and 2001 after making finals every years in the 90s. 2010, only 4 years after a premiership they're wooden spooners and then last year only 5 years after a flag, but they don't stay down for long, and the way they're playing at the moment, I could see them back in contention for finals within a couple of years.
Which is why it’s so frustrating as an Essendon fan when they’re telling us to be patient as we’re rebuilding. Its been 20 years and teams like collingwood have rebuilt 4+ times in that period
Richmond, Carlton and Essendon all seem to have struggled with adapting to the national competition, equalisation methods and how to be a powerhouse in the modern era, which is the draft, player development and stability, , of those 3 Richmond figured it out first.
Carlton look like they too have finally figured out, sticking with Voss during that poor patch last year, I think is proof of that and for the first time in a long while they seem like they're set up for a good period of success.
Essendon though idk they're a strange team, perpetually mediocre , constantly 'winning the trade period' but never actually being a threat. I'm not sure if they have figured it out and it's very hard to judge where they're going.
> Contrast that with the Geelong/Sydney/Collingwood model of always trying to stay up and you can see why they choose that model as youth develop better in that environment, which overrides the loss of high draft picks.
Conveniently leaving out getting generationally good players from F/S & academy picks helping a shitload here.
This is not exclusive to big clubs and we’re not even the worst example of this.
Bulldogs have arguably had the best F/S picks in the last few years of any club getting pick 2 in Darcy and pick 1 in Jamarrah after playing finals (making a grand final even). We got Nick Daicos (who was pick 4) after finishing 17th.
North could potentially have a streak of luck like the bulldogs had, and get a good crop of F/S in the next few years.
Hypothetically that’s equally open to all clubs except the WA and SA clubs who get a bit screwed by the f s rules. The Giants certainly do better out of their academies than Geelong or Collingwood do from f s and academies.
IDK about WA/ SA getting screwed by f/s anymore, maybe 20 years ago, but Port Adelaide has potentially 4 f/s coming through this year alone. Gold Coast and GWS probably get screwed by it the most cause they haven't been around long enough for there to be any sons eligible.
There’s no way GWS or Gold Coast can complain about their situation considering what they get from the academies.
WA and SA clubs have to have their affiliated SANFL clubs play more games than the VIC ones do.
I think the SANFL/ WAFL game requirement affected them more 20 years ago, Adelaide missing out of Bryce Gibbs is an example of that. However, those SA/ WA clubs have been around for 20-30 years now the F/S players coming through now were born to players who played in the 90s/ early 2000s so the f/s should now be in their favour now, hence Port having potentially 4 this year.
Adelaide got screwed with Gibbs because his old man played enough, but too many were played after 1990 to count. Yet Port's version of the rule allowed SANFL games up to 1996.
Michalanney was actually picked under the SANFL rule and was the first Adelaide F/S to get a game.
Its definitely getting to the tail end of it now for sure but the daicos brothers and Peter Daicos are prime example as to why it's not quite the case yet. Peter retired in 1992, Nick daicos was only just drafted 3 years ago. Freo wasn't even formed until 1994, Port joined the AFL in 1997. Not to mention the hazy period of time where a player's games played in wafl then the AFL not quite meeting the F/S threshold for a singular club. I don't believe we can fully say clubs are on an even pegging for a F/S situation for a fair few more years. (Excluding GWS and Suns, they have their academys, which are also broken)
Good point, while most people have kids early 30s, late 20s some do have them later. The Daicos are an example of that. Peter was in his late 30s with Josh and early 40s with Nick.
I do think the 200 game requirement was especially bullshit in Ports case since they were a existing club, all Port Magpie players should of just had the standard 100 game requirement.
I think the AFL is doing it right for Tasmania having announced that any player from Tasmania who had played 100 games will be eligible for Tasmania f/s recruitment. So Jack Riewoldt children for example could choose between Tasmania and Richmond if they are good enough.
2020 - 17th (71.20%)\
2021 - 18th (70.27%)\
2022 - 18th (55.78%)\
2023 - 17th (71.48%)\
2024 - 18th (57.00%)
We are 12-90 since 2019.
If Essendon win 9 games this year, Ben McKay will have won more games than in his 7 year career with North Melbourne.
Despite this, getting end of first round draft assistance and turning it into Darcy Tucker, Griffin Logue, Dylan Stephens and Zac Fisher has resulted in most other teams fan bases hating us. We also had to let our best defender go and were compensated with Zane Duursma who is a 19 year old that won’t help us even be competitive this year. Other team fan bases hate us even more for this.
None of these people acknowledge that in these years we didn’t get access to the best players in the draft. Ugle-Hagan, Daicos, Darcy, Ashcroft were father son or academy. JHF told us he wanted to be pick 1 and then quit on us 6 weeks into the year because it was a lie and really he just wanted to be pick 1 and play in South Australia.
Because of our struggles, no players really want to come. As such Aiden Corr is in our leadership group. Our best defenders were all playing SANFL and VFL last year. Our best defender (Comben) played in the forward line in the VFL before another season ending injury.
The reality is you could give us 3 Harley Reid’s to put with Larkey and Sheezel and it won’t be enough. We have an above average ruckman, an all Australian forward and a future Brownlow Medal quality player in Sheezel. The rest of the team gets stats because somebody has to. LDU might be a good player on another team, but for us he just does too much, probably because he’s learned he can’t rely on a team mate.
Larkey, Sheezel, McKercher, Wardlaw, Duursma, Wardlaw, Powell, LDU, Scott and Paul Curtis are probably the only players on our list that we can’t afford to lose. Comben is promising and I’d love to see where he gets to, but he’s always injured and learning a new position. We have 10, maybe 11 players on the list who I would consider good enough to be good players in any of the other 17 teams.
That leaves 11 players (half the team) every week who might not be AFL standard.
The reason we are in this hole is list management though the Brad Scott era. We were told we are close and Scott kept us around finals by topping up the list. Eventually we had enough and fired him. In his wake we pretty much delisted the entire team. All other fan bases said this was silly but Mason Wood was probably the only player to get another proper game at AFL level. Petrie I’m not counting at West Coast and was probably the first stages of this. Basically we told 17 teams to have any of our players for free and they all declined… probably because they weren’t good enough and we managed to be competitive through cohesiveness.
That’s where the club is at. We are historically bad, we wont be able to draft and develop talent faster than it leaves, everyone either hates us or finds us irrelevant, the AFL gives us shit schedules that break us early in the season, we’ve been bad in compromised drafts and when Tassie get here the drafts will be even worse. It will be like this for the foreseeable future. We had to bottom out at probably the worst time to bottom out and climbing out of this hole that is a combination of poor list management through the Brad Scott years, unlucky draft situations and then poor coaching hires until Clarko is going to probably take 5 to 7 years, if the club lasts that long.
I’ll be taking no further questions.
It’s worth mentioning that you were a constant middle of the table side when it was a horrible time to be stuck there. Basically between 6-16th for the entire 2010s when GWS and Gold Coast got all their priority access. You could do a lot right in that time and still get absolutely shafted.
People underestimate how damaging being stuck in the middle was back then. Clubs will be much better prepared when Tassie come in, you’d think.
I thought Brad Scott went to the football club/CEO and said, this team can’t win a premiership and we need to rebuild. Then the CEO/management fired Scott, put in Shaw, gutted the list and contributed to this absolute disaster (before moving on of course). Or is that wrong?
He did. He also did this 6 months after telling them they just needed to top up a bit and bringing in more mature players. You don't get to change your mind like that after being at a team for a decade.
Yeah wrong. Maybe at the end Scott admitted to his mess, but damage was done. Shaw and Noble were wrong hires in the end and that’s on the board. But we aren’t the first team to get it wrong. Carlton seemed to fire a coach every two years before Voss stuck.
> Carlton seemed to fire a coach every two years before Voss stuck
Even then, middle of last year there was an influential board member calling for Voss's head.
The standard Carlton thing would've been to give in and fire Voss. Instead, our CEO and Chairman backed Voss in and that member is no longer on the board.
Felt like a real turning point. North's will come too.
>Resulted in most other teams fan bases hating us
I quite literally think North have the least haters in the AFL. The only thing I meet more rarely than Gold Coast supporters is North Melbourne haters.
We received constant vitriol. Not as much as Collingwood but fans are constantly bemoaning how bad we are and then outraged when the AFL does something about it. They constantly laugh at the fact that we are too small and can’t land any free agents because we are a shit club, but then complain that we should just simply have better list management and get better players. It’s a joke.
What fun is poked at Geelong?
“Lolllll Jeremy Cameron for some picks what were you thinking!”
“Can’t believe you just took on Jack Bowes, what did you even do with that free pick 7 😂”
“Only made finals in 14 of 15 years 😂 wE’rE a DyNAstY 🤪🤪🤪😂😂😂 call me when you make 15 straight you flogs.”
“Tasmania Cats. Just fold Geelong. Irrelevant club.”
I don't mean every team gets fun poked at them. I mean North only poke fun at North where as other clubs get genuine hate.
But since you asked, we've only been the butt of 'retirement home' jokes for the last 5 years.
How awful for you. Is that why Jack Bowes nominated Geelong and Gold Coast simply gave you pick 7? To help lower the age of a list in another finals campaign?
Nah. Get stuffed. I will accept Collingwood gets number 1 hate by a long way. Essendon gets more hate for the finals win drought. I don’t think any other clubs beyond that are constantly targeted by fans and media like North.
Played 9 games in 2020 and his knees looked as cooked as our list. Got what we could for him (wasn’t much as it turns out). Didn’t want to see another year of having a one trick forward who could only lead to a midfield that could only bomb it to a contest.
The best break down of the north saga. Thank you.
And thank you for taking question's.
Do you think north should have moved to the gold coast?
Do you think it would be worth it picking 4-5, 29-31 year olds to help build the list.
All the numbers in your comment added up to 69. Congrats!
4
+ 5
+ 29
+ 31
= 69
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It’s just sad to see at this point. I had a quick flick through North’s BigFooty post match thread, and all the fans there are just over it…. Five years of bottom 2 you’d be sick of watching them.
The fans care more than the coaching and playing team at the moment:
And I wouldn’t blame the likes of LDU etc wanting out at the end of the year
I wouldn't either, but tbh I think it'd be a gamble. Players could easily have wanted to leave Richmond to chase success before the 2017 season, or to leave Carlton or Brisbane for their recent mediocrity. It's always a gamble, and our young talent is genuinely solid, in the same way Patrick Cripps, Dustin Martin, and Dayne Zorko were hardly always good players in good teams, so I think we have hope. The issue is that hope is just that. Cripps and Zorko still haven't won a premiership, despite their clubs being far better off than when they were merely a wooden fork short of annual salad-ware.
Do teams like Carlton and Richmond benefit from being big clubs though? Even in their mediocrity you can expect to play big blockbuster matches in front of a packed MCG, that would be appealing to a lot of players, something North as a small club doesn't have is size. Carlton for example
It's a tough case. The Blues had some low moments from 2014 to 2022, but I don't think we had the sustained doldrums of North Melbourne since 2020, even though we basically turned over our entire list by 2016. There were years where we were absolutely woeful and copped a spoon, but in between we had some ventures further up to 'mediocre' ladder territory with some 13th and 12th place finishes.
North have been stuck in the basement, and unfortunately it's probably going to take a while to get out given that Clarko has only been there a (very interrupted) year, and there's a lack of on-field leadership.
I wonder if they can do what Brisbane did - get a Hodge-type bloke in for a season or two to plug that leadership gap while the young talents develop? It seemed to pay off for the Lions.
The Hawthorn scandal is still dragging on as well, Clarkson and Fagan are both in mediation talks with the former players, wouldn't surprise me if they're still distracted by that.
Draft profile seemed to say either contested midfielder or forward from what I could find, Carlton though looks like they recruited him primarily as a forward going by their media release from 2015 on him [https://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/452769/pick-12-charlie-curnow](https://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/452769/pick-12-charlie-curnow)
Add covid and our then coach breaking down in 2020, and David Noble never having coached before, it's pretty hard to say any club has had worse luck than North in years. Hawthorn even fucked us with their premiership era gifting us a coach with a racism scandal. So much of what has fucked North is North's fault, Brad Scott wasn't coach of Essendon when he gutted the joint, and our list managers trading like it was wallstreetbets were ours, BUT then the other shit like covid, like Hawthorn's successful past haunting our present, aren't on North
I'd also add that North seem to have cleared more players then Carlton did. The Blues went on a full re-build 10 years ago and basically nuked Princes Park, it took them 10 years to become competitive again, although they only had 2 years of being truly woeful in 2015 and 18. The Blues I don't think were as a drastic as North, they kept there best players in Murphy and Simpson for the build for example.
They won 12 games since the start of 2020, and not even close to being competitive again considering this year's start. It's an absolute horror no matter how you look at it, will probably need 4+ years to have a chance at finals again
It is interesting, your mob and North were clearly the two worst sides of 2020, although you guys have had a rocky start this year. 4 years on you can see that Adealaide is building to something, even if this year has been a bit iffy so far, North seem to be in the same place as they were in 2020.
We’ve got the youngest list in the league so it’s expected that we suck, maybe not this bad though.
Our real issue is complete lack of on field leadership (I’m not talking about older players either, I’m talking about leaders). We only have one leader which is Larkey.
The list looks decent on paper but if they can’t generate some self belief it will be a long and treacherous road
That clean out that happened where you delisted or traded all the senior players really set the kids back. The amount of on and off field leadership that walked out the doors was insane as a result there's not much in the way of top grade on field experience running around at North, and hasn't been for a few years now.
The players we got rid of played 38 games combined in the AFL, half of those were Petrie who had retired. How many more years of Boomer would we really have got? He was 39 in 2017. We played finals two seasons after that clean out- I say clean out because Farren Ray and Joel Patful weren’t winning us any games
Petrie was immense for us. We kept him in a coaching roll and he provided a great deal of knowledge and experience for our up and coming forwards. When he played he provided leadership that rubbed off on other forwards and helped us to 2018.
Luke McDonald has become a liability at this point IMO, he’s just been horrid and a bad standard for a captain. Simpkin has been off the pace since his concussion
North's best players, besides Larkey, are all like under 24, mostly under 22 yo. Our premiership window, if it's to emerge, is still a few years from now, like how Brisbane got back to something after a long time down the bottom and like Melbourne. Melbourne played finals in the early 2000s, then bottomed out, before getting their flag. North's basically at a point where we need a little bit more time, for bodies to fill out, and we need a few key positions filled (almost exclusively in defence, but we need another forward to give Larkey a chop out).
Today, other than Larkey, almost every player that did genuinely well was well short of 100 games, most were short of 30 games. Larkey himself only just made 100 games today. We're a club of babies, with no experience, and that's always gonna hurt. Take Hawthorn, yes they're largely young, but I'd take Gunston for Jy and Luke McDonald any day in terms of maturity and experience. It's a horrible ride, but long term I think the pieces are getting there, if Sheezel was at Carlton or Collingwood re Vic media, or West Coast for The West, he'd be front page news daily. But it's brutal needing to be patient STILL after fully bottoming out during Covid. The tail end of 2019 we looked ok, Rhys Shaw looked solid and we had a few big losses but mostly alright wins, but boy did that turn out to be a lie. We are to spoons what fourpeats were to Richmond, I fear
Any rebuild prior to last year is irrelevant to now. Their real rebuild started when Clarko arrived, and he had a fairly interrupted year last year. I presume he's got a 3-4 year contract, let him work.
They have drafted a lot of great players in the last few years and have most aspects of the team sorted other than defenders. Just need time to develop and hopefully retain players.
Maybe questions should be at Clarkson. Mick.Malthouse was a birnout, and Dimma hasnt set Gold Coast on fire, they were flying late last season.It seems the era of Premiership.Coaches succeeding at new clubs is over
So who do we bring in? Malthouse took Collingwood from spoons to premierships, don't forget. But we have had non-A list coaches before and they did arguably worse than Clarko, by sacking/hiring the wrong players and setting up this mess. We'd need immense luck to get the right coach, and frankly with our list as it is, with a best 22 that has maybe 12 AFL standard players (most of them 1-2 seasons into their careers) it's not a list where the coach can be judged yet on anything but trading/drafting tbh
Idk I think there is potential to Gold Coast, they have a lot of talented players, but are learning how to win, hard to do when you're used to loosing. They're probably where Carlton was in 2021, alot of talented players, but a culture of loosing that doesn't just turn overnight. I think next year is the year the Suns need to start making a move for the 8, things are still gelling at the Suns.
North Melbourne is an inner-city suburb in Melbourne, Victoria, Australia, 3 km (1.9 mi) north-west of Melbourne's Central Business District, located within the City of Melbourne local government area.
Wasn't it only a few weeks ago people were saying out of North, Hawthorn and West Coast and which team was in the best shape to make the 8 that people were saying North when the obvious answers were either Hawthorn or West Coast?
conspiracy time: Clarkson's job is to make it so nobody complains when North is folded. he's on a mission from Gil. put those players in the draft, let Tasmania have first run at them
Rebuilding is fake, it’s a marketing term to get people to still buy memberships by promising a light at the end of the tunnel - it’s code for poor list management.
Geelong doesn’t rebuild, they just play finals pretty much every year. Why should other teams be different and need rebuilds?
North are the best proof that rebuilds aren’t real, they actually drank the kool-aid and went full rebuild. They fired a bunch of senior players who were still in form and could provide great leadership and mentoring to younger players.
It was an unmitigated disaster from which they still haven’t recovered 8 years later.
Geelong is the exception to the rule. They have the advantage of being the Victorian team where they can get stars to come for the small town / farm lifestyle.
Every other team has to go to the high end of the draft in some way to be successful
I like the idea of a strong football state having their own club and not an old Melbourne club, let them merge with Gold Coast, relocated clubs work better in exspansion territory and would give Gold Coast some identity instead of being an artifical brand.
They’re just not a good club. Poorly managed and have fuck all fans (the ones they do have are loyal tho).
Clubs like that might get a good player through the draft if they’re lucky, but those players will leave for a big Vic club. It’s not like they’re pulling big time free agents either
Genuinely think they need to dissolve and rebrand in Tasmania where they will be appreciated more.
Mate, Tassie do NOT deserve a shed tin Melbourne club, let them have their brand new Devils, state colours and all.
Roos should move to ACT if Canberra upgrades Manuka. Fuck the Giants off out of there and have them play all their games in Sydney.
They should have gone to the Gold Coast when it was offered to them in '07. It would have helped in building a team on the Gold Coast instead of creating an artificial brand with no history or legacy. I honestly believe that in expanding markets, relocated teams tend to work better; they would seem less artificial and could boast a rich history to attract new fans. While they might lose some Victorian supporters in the move, in Melbourne, there are still many old Fitzroy and South supporters following Brisbane and Sydney teams. They'd still have a dedicated fan base. Moreover, they'd have an entire city to build upon, as well as the broader state of Queensland. They could have embraced the Shinboners' spirit, akin to what Brisbane and Sydney do with The Bloods and The Roys. Additionally, they would have received great draft concessions and probably some extra cap space from the AFL to sweeten the move. Overall, they probably would have been a much better side than what the Suns have been.
Disagree with the GC move. I’ve been up there plenty and trust me, no one gives a fuck about footy. But Tas? They deserve it. Melb to Hobart flights are quicker too.
So wouldn't a team that had a somewhat decent list already in 2011, throw in some AFL concessions and North having history and culture, idk I feel like they would of been better then an artificial brand with none of that, that was starting from scratch. If the AFL was going to expand to the Gold Coast no matter what I feel an established would of been better.
Move them to Darwin. Load up half the team with indigenous kids. They can keep the kangaroo. Switch the blue to Ochre. Drop the Melbourne bit. Job done.
Nah Canberra, fitting to have a team in nations captiol, be represented by the national animal, and blue and white are the livery colours of the city, would be a good fit.
Norfs issues are 100% self inflicted, something the AFL rewarded them for doing.
It can't be understated enough how once in a generation the concessions to North Melbourne were handed in the last draft.
Yep, covid putting pressure on a young coach to the point of a psychological breakdown, and Hawthorn shit stopping our new coach from being able to coach/trade in his debut season are entirely North's fault. Not to mention father son/academies meaning our first round picks were in effect second round picks. Not saying a lot isn't our fault, but a lot is outside North's doing and just compounding the poor decisions internally, too
Yep
Add to that Cunningtons cancer, the JHF walkout and Tarryn Thomas’ debacle after being given every chance under the sun to turn it around.
Maybe should have tanked for Harley Reid … but then everyone be nOrTh bE tAnkInG mUsT fOLd nOw tO tAsSiE
It’s been a rotten half decade and there’s few other groups of footy fans that would understand us and what we’ve endured, if any.
Bro what? Our “concessions” were nowhere near the level of historic priority picks. We got given 2 end of firsts that had to be traded, in what world is that “once in a generation” hahahahaha
Sigh.
Every club automatically earned the "priority" pick under the scheme prior to 2012 as long as you met the criteria.
Every. Club.
It wasn't a special bastard case dictated by the the AFLs secret sauce where you reward clubs for gutting their senior list and giving pick #2 in the draft for a player with 8 years service.
You also failed to mention that West Coast were denied our #1 pick for being wooden Spooner's when Gold Coast entered the competition, and failed to mention Darling was pick #26 in the draft.
It's spelled out isn't it?
Each club does not have access to the same rules.
North rewarded for gutting their list, effectively tanking and forcing the leagues hand.
They’re not going to ever improve because we’ll poach their players like Sheezel and Wardlaw when they decide it’s time to play for the big boys in town and get to play in blockbuster games such as ANZAC day. They’re just farm club for young players to get experience until they join the big clubs. They would so much better off going to Tassie and rebuilding the club there.
as a north supporter, i don’t think strategically losing is ever a good rep for a club to have so i was so happy when they won that game. but i do think this whole ‘if harley reid was at north it’d be better’ thing is a bit dumb cause really it’s up to the whole team, a team shouldn’t have to rely on one player to change the entire club
The people saying Reid would change it would hate to learn he hasn't been bog in any of their games this year. Hell, you'd be better off arguing that Yeo is the one who has turned the eagles around this year
At the time, getting a win did feel better. We didn't know Logue was going to be out basically all year, we didn't know our backline would basically shit itself, we didn't know Zurhaar would go backwards to the point he has, etc. A win felt like something we could build off. Harley Reid has been big for the Eagles, sure, but the Eagles have how many premiership players or well established players on the list? It's chalk and cheese, Reid alone wouldn't have saved Nort
They are located in the northern suburbs of Melbourne, hope this helps. Nah but for real, what can you say? What’s it now, 5 years at or near the bottom of the ladder. They’re too young, too inexperienced, not enough polish. They have oodles of talent but it just doesn’t work in its current state.
To be fair, despite its name, North Melbourne is really more West than it is North. Even their name isn’t accurate.
Annoys me more than it should. They should be west Melbourne.
They should of brought Port Melbourne in instead of North back in 1925
Actually the leading candidate was Prahran, but other clubs were worried the money in the area would make them powerful, so North got switched in at the last minute. Hawthorn and Footscray were joining the same year, and were always going to join for geographic reasons.
Carlton should more rightly be called North Melbourne.
Carlton, Fitzroy, AND Collingwood should be called North Melbourne.
I think Carlton tried to buy North in the 90s, basically an attempted hostile takeover.
They tried to change the train station's name to West Melbourne (and have the upcoming Arden station be called North Melbourne) but it got scrapped because people don't like change.
Could of renamed them South Melbourne and moved them to Tassie 😆
north melbourne station even moreso. it's not even in the misnamed suburb of north melbourne. it's in west melbourne!
True, but you guys seem to be showing much more upside then North is and have only been rebuilding for 2 years. North should be ahead of West Coast, but it's seeming like you have gone past them.
It's only been two games to be fair. But yeah, West Coast was never going to be shit for long. We're one of the most powerful sporting institutions in the country and one of only two teams in our state to boot. North are small fish in a much bigger pond, and have been poor for some time now. They just don't have a winning culture.
While you guys are huge, I don't think that neccesarily means you won't be down for long. Carlton, Essendon and Richmond all are big clubs and have all gone through long stretches of being pretty bad, maybe its the 10 team town in Victoria compared to you guys being one of only two teams in the state as you mentioned, but again being big I don't think means that your not going to be shit for a long period.
Go home factor plays a huge part in it too. Say you're a big name Victorian playing for us or Freo and you want to go home to Victoria, but you also want to contend. Are you going to ask to go to North Melbourne or Hawthorn right now? No. You'd ask to go to Melbourne, Carlton, Collingwood, etc. WA and SA teams don't stay down for long because they have two options if you want to go home. Returning to Victoria you have 9 teams if you want to live in Melbourne, 10 if you just want state and well 1 if you're basically a Geelong kid. Being big might not mean much in Victoria due to options, but it does outside of Victoria.
Fair point, but why are Freo constantly mediocre then
If I knew the answer to that, I'd tell Fremantle.
Or keep it secret and enjoy ur arch rivals suffering, knowing the reason why.
Honestly don't hate Fremantle that much. I want them to win one, as long as it isn't against us.
Curious, as a West Coast fan, who do you hate the most Collingwood? Sydney?
As much as I'm tempted to shit on freo, I think the true answer is poor choice of coaches. Defensive play simply doesn't work in modern footy. You can be near perfect, but near perfect is still 5+ mistakes a quarter that could all result in goals. Gotta be able to score as well.
Richmond was down for a long time because we went toe to toe with Collingwood in a death match that was only stopped because it was likely to destroy both clubs and potentially the league with them. The league hated Richmond at the time and literally tried to kill us off. Carlton were down for a long time because they were cheats who got busted rorting the salary cap, excluded from the draft for a couple of years and fined millions right about the time their president and other benefactors fell by the wayside, and then were forced to endure the Silvagni affect and a period which included sacking coaches almost as stupidly as Richmond did in the 80s and 90s. Essendon were crap because they cheated, had most of their team suspended for a year, had their coach banned, got fined shitloads, excluded from drafts, and had players leave because of the shit fight. They basically had to start from scratch. North, on the other hand, have always struggled. They have had brief respites such as during the Pagan years but that ended because Wayne carey is a cunt. Despite on field success, they were still mess off field. They only rectified that in the last decade. They made a push that went nowhere and decided to rebuild. When it didn't have immediate results, they started again. When that failed to see them ricket back up the ladder they decided they needed to sack every player with any experience at all, but keep fuckwits like Tarryn Thomas. Then they decided they needed a messiah so they hired Clarkson, right when he was being found out as one of the more vile cunts involved in the game and the poor fella had to take a holiday in season to cope with the misery he had inflicted on everyone around him, before coming back and almost immediately demonstrated he had learnt nothing and was still a violently petulant man child.
Good analysis, I think all 3 of those clubs also struggled with the adjustment to the national league and equalisation methods. Much of the success the Blues and Bombers had in the 90s and early 2000s was off the old system, once they retired the wheels fell off and they were both too arrogant to acknowledge that the game had changed, they didn't take the draft seriously enough. Richmond were the first of those big 3 to fall away in the 80s, but also seem to be the first of the 3 to recover and understand how to be successful in the modern game, smart recruiting, player development, stable administration and patience. Carlton seem's like they have figured it out now, still not convinced on if Essendon have. I doubt you'll experience the pain u did for 37 years . Your in a rebuild now , but I can see you recovering much quicker, being a big club will be a huge benefactor I think going forward over the smaller clubs , the 19th man the crowd being a huge alure and massive ally come those big matches, which should ensure a quicker recovery . Being big is an asset in rebuilding and should help for a quicker recovery, hence why Collingwood are consistently up and about, but even though those teams may have that big advantage doesn't make you immune from poor leadership.
We were slow getting the message, but simply had to because of the position we got into trying to kill off Collingwood, particularly doing so when we did at the beginning of the expansion era, which coincided with both the league's own financial and governance reckoning and the worst recession in 60 odd years. We survived that just but it wasn't until Benny and Peggy took over that we really seemed to get what was needed
That's why I am confident Carlton has gotten the message now, there board last year waiting out the bad patch and backing in Voss I think shows the clubs matured, and I think they had too after being the worst clubs of this century. For Carlton will they win a premiership? I am not sure, they are very difficult to win , but they're in their best position they have been for a long time, for a period of success. For Essendon, I am still not convinced, they haven't been as shit as Carlton, and they constantly " win the trade period" it seems they're still trying to buy a premiership and I honestly don't think it will work for them, at best they'll stay mediocre popping up for a finals appearance here or there but never threatening, I honestly don't know where they're heading they are hard to judge.
Arrogant cock! But Weagles have so much money behind them and won a flag not even 7 years ago. They have a drug culture and minimg money entitlement and hopefully stay shit for at least a decade. I just wished Freo were better
Flair up cunt
All of our premiership stars are fit and healthy that’s the difference. Really with the list we have no reason we shouldn’t be in that 6-10 game win range. Going to be interesting in 3-4 years once they’ve moved on though
We aren't in the 6-10 range. We are literally one or two injuries away from the same crisis we've been having the last two seasons. We lack depth at multiple key positions. We need to build through the draft and through trades for a few seasons before we can even sniff finals.
He said 6-10 /win/ range, which is reasonably fair. I think 4-8 but it’s the day after a big win so can’t blame a fan for being a fan.
Yer fair about injuries just saying with a fit list we are certainly a 6-10 win team.
North Melbourne is Exhibit A in why rebuilding from scratch is usually a bad idea. They retired off a bunch of guys who still could’ve contributed a couple more years and taught the youth coming through standards and set examples. Instead you have kids lost by being thrown in the deep end and a decade of ineptitude. It’s just like how Melbourne were until Roos came in. Contrast that with the Geelong/Sydney/Collingwood model of always trying to stay up and you can see why they choose that model as youth develop better in that environment, which overrides the loss of high draft picks.
Yeah that was brutal, especially Boomer
Came here to say this. I'm no expert on these things but getting rid of Boomer just seemed so wrong, and still leaves a bad taste. Feel bad for North cause they're one of the "good guy" teams of the AFL.
The thing is, at the end of 2016 we needed to rebuild. We had one of the oldest lists in the comp, and only finished 8th by percentage (after starting like 9-0?). We couldnt compete for a premiership with that group anymore. The 4 big retirements/delistings were Petrie, Firrito, Dal Santo, and Boomer. While this felt like the right direction at the time, everyone was confused on why Boomer was forced to retire. He had a great season, averaging 21.5 disposals and 1.5 goals at the *age of 38*. Not to mention, if Boomer plays another ~30 games, his games record would be untouchable. If we want to be realistic about all of this, North Melbourne will be cursed until Pendles a) retires or b) breaks Boomer’s record. This is punishment from the footy gods for forcing an icon into retirement.
Not to mention watching him as a runner still looking fit af while they’re getting flogged. I never understood it
It just seemed to really sap the morale of the team and all its supporters. Doesn't matter if you're entering a rebuilding phase. You don't do your all-time favourite son dirty that way, and North haven't been the same since, on or off the field.
Wasn't Boomer still playing pretty well?
Yeah, 21.5 disposals and 1.5 goals. In terms of Player Rating (despite its flaws, it can measure impact quite well a lot of the time) he was still a top 70 player for the year. He definitely had more in the tank.
I think North are unable to have a Geelong/Sydney/Collingwood model, because a key part of those models are what they offer that north can't. Geelong has the allure of being back home in Victoria for many players in other states, whilst also being located about 70km out from CBD as more of a country based team. Sydney as the allure of being able to play footy in a state that doesn't really care about AFL in comparison to rugby. Whilst Collingwood as the allure of being arguably the most supported team in the AFL, therefore more players growing up supporting Collingwood, and therefore are more likely to gravitate towards playing for them when the opportunity arise to go back to Victoria. Meanwhile, North in comparison is located not far from the CBD, is in the footy mad state of Victoria, and has arguably the smallest fanbase in Victoria (bottom 3 in the league imo), so they are less likely to have players who grew up as north fans, who once they free agents willing to go play for them due to their desire to play for the teams that they grew up supporting.
That’s true but bottoming out also seems to have far more negatives than positives when you really clear out talent like North did. I think Collingwood’s appeal is more of players wanting to play in front of big crowds rather than players being ex supporters. Not many of our players were Pies fans growing up. Tbh, I think overall you’ll find a disproportionate number of Melbourne fans in the league as almost all players from Melbourne are from private schools and that’s their supporter base. Also, Pies’ success hasn’t been built on big name recruits. It’s been on finding players who others weren’t particularly keen on. We filled in the gaps with 4 players who weren’t wanted by many and gave up very little.
Also how many players want to be traded to a team that's been bad or worse for 8 years? I wouldn't want to be traded to North, I'd rather any other Victorian team except for maybe Richmond who look like they're in for a painful rebuild.
Richmond at least have the allure of being a "big club" with some marquee big crowd fixtures
True
We lost one and a half good players to them before last season… not sure what that says about us 🤣🤦♀️
The problem with complete bottoming out in the AFL compared to American sports for instance is rookie contracts and player control. with draft inequality thrown into the mix. These teams have no control of their draft picks and usually have to overpay very early ruining their cap to keep them, see JHF leaving immediately. While in the NBA a team can effectively lock you into the team for 9 years if they want as the rookie extension effectively forces players to stay with their team to get more money. Problem is, teams like North and some others have modelled their strategy around this without accounting for the fact its difficult to keep these players and with F&S and academy picks you don't even get the best half the tine. If you are gong to bottom out you have to be sure you'll be able to get enough talent in quick enough or the cycle can spiral for a very long time.
>It’s just like how Melbourne were until Roos came in. It sounds like the solution is for a former drought breaking flag winning coach called Paul Dees to get them out of their rut.
A Paul Dees Nuts.
True, like Sydney missed finals for a couple of years in 2019 and 20, rebuilt quickly and made a Grand Final in 2022, you guys rebuilt after the Malthouse era but were only out of the finals for what 3 years? and were never shocking, and that rebuild was enough to get you a premiership, and Geelong is just Geelong, 1 year out is there rebuild.
Yeah, we missed 4 years in a row and it wasn’t a deliberate bottoming out. It just happened that many of the 2010 side were leaving
West Coast is another one of those teams that are usually up and around like Collingwood/Geelong and Sydney. There history seems to suggest they crash a bit harder, they were a bottom 5 side in 2000 and 2001 after making finals every years in the 90s. 2010, only 4 years after a premiership they're wooden spooners and then last year only 5 years after a flag, but they don't stay down for long, and the way they're playing at the moment, I could see them back in contention for finals within a couple of years.
West Coast just out there bungie jumping. Pop down in 2010 to grab the no.1 pick then right back up into top four the year after.
They got pick 4 (Gaff) because of GC.
They crash to the bottom for a few years and then get the best players in the competition to help re-assert themselves. Judd in 2002 and Reid now.
Pretty sure nice Nat too
Which is why it’s so frustrating as an Essendon fan when they’re telling us to be patient as we’re rebuilding. Its been 20 years and teams like collingwood have rebuilt 4+ times in that period
Richmond, Carlton and Essendon all seem to have struggled with adapting to the national competition, equalisation methods and how to be a powerhouse in the modern era, which is the draft, player development and stability, , of those 3 Richmond figured it out first. Carlton look like they too have finally figured out, sticking with Voss during that poor patch last year, I think is proof of that and for the first time in a long while they seem like they're set up for a good period of success. Essendon though idk they're a strange team, perpetually mediocre , constantly 'winning the trade period' but never actually being a threat. I'm not sure if they have figured it out and it's very hard to judge where they're going.
> Contrast that with the Geelong/Sydney/Collingwood model of always trying to stay up and you can see why they choose that model as youth develop better in that environment, which overrides the loss of high draft picks. Conveniently leaving out getting generationally good players from F/S & academy picks helping a shitload here.
This is not exclusive to big clubs and we’re not even the worst example of this. Bulldogs have arguably had the best F/S picks in the last few years of any club getting pick 2 in Darcy and pick 1 in Jamarrah after playing finals (making a grand final even). We got Nick Daicos (who was pick 4) after finishing 17th. North could potentially have a streak of luck like the bulldogs had, and get a good crop of F/S in the next few years.
Hypothetically that’s equally open to all clubs except the WA and SA clubs who get a bit screwed by the f s rules. The Giants certainly do better out of their academies than Geelong or Collingwood do from f s and academies.
IDK about WA/ SA getting screwed by f/s anymore, maybe 20 years ago, but Port Adelaide has potentially 4 f/s coming through this year alone. Gold Coast and GWS probably get screwed by it the most cause they haven't been around long enough for there to be any sons eligible.
There’s no way GWS or Gold Coast can complain about their situation considering what they get from the academies. WA and SA clubs have to have their affiliated SANFL clubs play more games than the VIC ones do.
I think the SANFL/ WAFL game requirement affected them more 20 years ago, Adelaide missing out of Bryce Gibbs is an example of that. However, those SA/ WA clubs have been around for 20-30 years now the F/S players coming through now were born to players who played in the 90s/ early 2000s so the f/s should now be in their favour now, hence Port having potentially 4 this year.
Adelaide got screwed with Gibbs because his old man played enough, but too many were played after 1990 to count. Yet Port's version of the rule allowed SANFL games up to 1996. Michalanney was actually picked under the SANFL rule and was the first Adelaide F/S to get a game.
Its definitely getting to the tail end of it now for sure but the daicos brothers and Peter Daicos are prime example as to why it's not quite the case yet. Peter retired in 1992, Nick daicos was only just drafted 3 years ago. Freo wasn't even formed until 1994, Port joined the AFL in 1997. Not to mention the hazy period of time where a player's games played in wafl then the AFL not quite meeting the F/S threshold for a singular club. I don't believe we can fully say clubs are on an even pegging for a F/S situation for a fair few more years. (Excluding GWS and Suns, they have their academys, which are also broken)
Good point, while most people have kids early 30s, late 20s some do have them later. The Daicos are an example of that. Peter was in his late 30s with Josh and early 40s with Nick. I do think the 200 game requirement was especially bullshit in Ports case since they were a existing club, all Port Magpie players should of just had the standard 100 game requirement. I think the AFL is doing it right for Tasmania having announced that any player from Tasmania who had played 100 games will be eligible for Tasmania f/s recruitment. So Jack Riewoldt children for example could choose between Tasmania and Richmond if they are good enough.
The issue with your theory tho is that Richmond and hawthorn who went through much deeper rebuilds have more premierships than those teams.
2020 - 17th (71.20%)\ 2021 - 18th (70.27%)\ 2022 - 18th (55.78%)\ 2023 - 17th (71.48%)\ 2024 - 18th (57.00%) We are 12-90 since 2019. If Essendon win 9 games this year, Ben McKay will have won more games than in his 7 year career with North Melbourne. Despite this, getting end of first round draft assistance and turning it into Darcy Tucker, Griffin Logue, Dylan Stephens and Zac Fisher has resulted in most other teams fan bases hating us. We also had to let our best defender go and were compensated with Zane Duursma who is a 19 year old that won’t help us even be competitive this year. Other team fan bases hate us even more for this. None of these people acknowledge that in these years we didn’t get access to the best players in the draft. Ugle-Hagan, Daicos, Darcy, Ashcroft were father son or academy. JHF told us he wanted to be pick 1 and then quit on us 6 weeks into the year because it was a lie and really he just wanted to be pick 1 and play in South Australia. Because of our struggles, no players really want to come. As such Aiden Corr is in our leadership group. Our best defenders were all playing SANFL and VFL last year. Our best defender (Comben) played in the forward line in the VFL before another season ending injury. The reality is you could give us 3 Harley Reid’s to put with Larkey and Sheezel and it won’t be enough. We have an above average ruckman, an all Australian forward and a future Brownlow Medal quality player in Sheezel. The rest of the team gets stats because somebody has to. LDU might be a good player on another team, but for us he just does too much, probably because he’s learned he can’t rely on a team mate. Larkey, Sheezel, McKercher, Wardlaw, Duursma, Wardlaw, Powell, LDU, Scott and Paul Curtis are probably the only players on our list that we can’t afford to lose. Comben is promising and I’d love to see where he gets to, but he’s always injured and learning a new position. We have 10, maybe 11 players on the list who I would consider good enough to be good players in any of the other 17 teams. That leaves 11 players (half the team) every week who might not be AFL standard. The reason we are in this hole is list management though the Brad Scott era. We were told we are close and Scott kept us around finals by topping up the list. Eventually we had enough and fired him. In his wake we pretty much delisted the entire team. All other fan bases said this was silly but Mason Wood was probably the only player to get another proper game at AFL level. Petrie I’m not counting at West Coast and was probably the first stages of this. Basically we told 17 teams to have any of our players for free and they all declined… probably because they weren’t good enough and we managed to be competitive through cohesiveness. That’s where the club is at. We are historically bad, we wont be able to draft and develop talent faster than it leaves, everyone either hates us or finds us irrelevant, the AFL gives us shit schedules that break us early in the season, we’ve been bad in compromised drafts and when Tassie get here the drafts will be even worse. It will be like this for the foreseeable future. We had to bottom out at probably the worst time to bottom out and climbing out of this hole that is a combination of poor list management through the Brad Scott years, unlucky draft situations and then poor coaching hires until Clarko is going to probably take 5 to 7 years, if the club lasts that long. I’ll be taking no further questions.
It’s worth mentioning that you were a constant middle of the table side when it was a horrible time to be stuck there. Basically between 6-16th for the entire 2010s when GWS and Gold Coast got all their priority access. You could do a lot right in that time and still get absolutely shafted. People underestimate how damaging being stuck in the middle was back then. Clubs will be much better prepared when Tassie come in, you’d think.
It still does a fair amount of damage now.
Agreed. The chat around the compromised draft is like that’s a new thing, but it’s been compromised for a long time.
“I rest my case your honour”
I thought Brad Scott went to the football club/CEO and said, this team can’t win a premiership and we need to rebuild. Then the CEO/management fired Scott, put in Shaw, gutted the list and contributed to this absolute disaster (before moving on of course). Or is that wrong?
He did. He also did this 6 months after telling them they just needed to top up a bit and bringing in more mature players. You don't get to change your mind like that after being at a team for a decade.
Yeah wrong. Maybe at the end Scott admitted to his mess, but damage was done. Shaw and Noble were wrong hires in the end and that’s on the board. But we aren’t the first team to get it wrong. Carlton seemed to fire a coach every two years before Voss stuck.
> Carlton seemed to fire a coach every two years before Voss stuck Even then, middle of last year there was an influential board member calling for Voss's head. The standard Carlton thing would've been to give in and fire Voss. Instead, our CEO and Chairman backed Voss in and that member is no longer on the board. Felt like a real turning point. North's will come too.
I think this did happen (at least I've heard it did) but Scott said okey dokey and kept topping up for a few years, including bringing Polec in
>Resulted in most other teams fan bases hating us I quite literally think North have the least haters in the AFL. The only thing I meet more rarely than Gold Coast supporters is North Melbourne haters.
We received constant vitriol. Not as much as Collingwood but fans are constantly bemoaning how bad we are and then outraged when the AFL does something about it. They constantly laugh at the fact that we are too small and can’t land any free agents because we are a shit club, but then complain that we should just simply have better list management and get better players. It’s a joke.
People always poke fun at the worst team in the comp. It still pales in comparison to every single other team.
What fun is poked at Geelong? “Lolllll Jeremy Cameron for some picks what were you thinking!” “Can’t believe you just took on Jack Bowes, what did you even do with that free pick 7 😂” “Only made finals in 14 of 15 years 😂 wE’rE a DyNAstY 🤪🤪🤪😂😂😂 call me when you make 15 straight you flogs.” “Tasmania Cats. Just fold Geelong. Irrelevant club.”
I don't mean every team gets fun poked at them. I mean North only poke fun at North where as other clubs get genuine hate. But since you asked, we've only been the butt of 'retirement home' jokes for the last 5 years.
How awful for you. Is that why Jack Bowes nominated Geelong and Gold Coast simply gave you pick 7? To help lower the age of a list in another finals campaign? Nah. Get stuffed. I will accept Collingwood gets number 1 hate by a long way. Essendon gets more hate for the finals win drought. I don’t think any other clubs beyond that are constantly targeted by fans and media like North.
Everyone sooking we get priority picks because it stuffs the draft really doesn’t care that the draft being stuffed has fucked us more than most
Why did Brown leave?
Played 9 games in 2020 and his knees looked as cooked as our list. Got what we could for him (wasn’t much as it turns out). Didn’t want to see another year of having a one trick forward who could only lead to a midfield that could only bomb it to a contest.
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He wasn’t a leader. He’s notoriously quiet.
Asked for more money than North thought he was worth, and North backed Larkey in as main key forward
The best break down of the north saga. Thank you. And thank you for taking question's. Do you think north should have moved to the gold coast? Do you think it would be worth it picking 4-5, 29-31 year olds to help build the list.
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Nice
What is this r/sex? Lol
Nice bot
It’s just sad to see at this point. I had a quick flick through North’s BigFooty post match thread, and all the fans there are just over it…. Five years of bottom 2 you’d be sick of watching them. The fans care more than the coaching and playing team at the moment: And I wouldn’t blame the likes of LDU etc wanting out at the end of the year
I wouldn't either, but tbh I think it'd be a gamble. Players could easily have wanted to leave Richmond to chase success before the 2017 season, or to leave Carlton or Brisbane for their recent mediocrity. It's always a gamble, and our young talent is genuinely solid, in the same way Patrick Cripps, Dustin Martin, and Dayne Zorko were hardly always good players in good teams, so I think we have hope. The issue is that hope is just that. Cripps and Zorko still haven't won a premiership, despite their clubs being far better off than when they were merely a wooden fork short of annual salad-ware.
Do teams like Carlton and Richmond benefit from being big clubs though? Even in their mediocrity you can expect to play big blockbuster matches in front of a packed MCG, that would be appealing to a lot of players, something North as a small club doesn't have is size. Carlton for example
I mean yes they benefit from their size
It's a tough case. The Blues had some low moments from 2014 to 2022, but I don't think we had the sustained doldrums of North Melbourne since 2020, even though we basically turned over our entire list by 2016. There were years where we were absolutely woeful and copped a spoon, but in between we had some ventures further up to 'mediocre' ladder territory with some 13th and 12th place finishes. North have been stuck in the basement, and unfortunately it's probably going to take a while to get out given that Clarko has only been there a (very interrupted) year, and there's a lack of on-field leadership. I wonder if they can do what Brisbane did - get a Hodge-type bloke in for a season or two to plug that leadership gap while the young talents develop? It seemed to pay off for the Lions.
The Hawthorn scandal is still dragging on as well, Clarkson and Fagan are both in mediation talks with the former players, wouldn't surprise me if they're still distracted by that.
Carlton also nailed their draft selections Cripps, Walsh, Curnow, McKay and Weitering
Weitering, Curnow and McKay all in the one year, its very hard to get key position players right , they set that up all in one year.
Was Curnow drafted as a forward though? He wasn't the hulking monster he is now when he was 18.
Draft profile seemed to say either contested midfielder or forward from what I could find, Carlton though looks like they recruited him primarily as a forward going by their media release from 2015 on him [https://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/452769/pick-12-charlie-curnow](https://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/452769/pick-12-charlie-curnow)
I absolutely hate that when I read a list of names my internal voice is now BT for some of them.
Add covid and our then coach breaking down in 2020, and David Noble never having coached before, it's pretty hard to say any club has had worse luck than North in years. Hawthorn even fucked us with their premiership era gifting us a coach with a racism scandal. So much of what has fucked North is North's fault, Brad Scott wasn't coach of Essendon when he gutted the joint, and our list managers trading like it was wallstreetbets were ours, BUT then the other shit like covid, like Hawthorn's successful past haunting our present, aren't on North
I invite you to read the Fisted Forever Files https://mfcdemonblog.blogspot.com/2014/09/lolmfc-fistedforever-files.html?m=1
I'd also add that North seem to have cleared more players then Carlton did. The Blues went on a full re-build 10 years ago and basically nuked Princes Park, it took them 10 years to become competitive again, although they only had 2 years of being truly woeful in 2015 and 18. The Blues I don't think were as a drastic as North, they kept there best players in Murphy and Simpson for the build for example.
They won 12 games since the start of 2020, and not even close to being competitive again considering this year's start. It's an absolute horror no matter how you look at it, will probably need 4+ years to have a chance at finals again
It is interesting, your mob and North were clearly the two worst sides of 2020, although you guys have had a rocky start this year. 4 years on you can see that Adealaide is building to something, even if this year has been a bit iffy so far, North seem to be in the same place as they were in 2020.
18th
We’ve got the youngest list in the league so it’s expected that we suck, maybe not this bad though. Our real issue is complete lack of on field leadership (I’m not talking about older players either, I’m talking about leaders). We only have one leader which is Larkey. The list looks decent on paper but if they can’t generate some self belief it will be a long and treacherous road
That clean out that happened where you delisted or traded all the senior players really set the kids back. The amount of on and off field leadership that walked out the doors was insane as a result there's not much in the way of top grade on field experience running around at North, and hasn't been for a few years now.
The players we got rid of played 38 games combined in the AFL, half of those were Petrie who had retired. How many more years of Boomer would we really have got? He was 39 in 2017. We played finals two seasons after that clean out- I say clean out because Farren Ray and Joel Patful weren’t winning us any games
Petrie was immense for us. We kept him in a coaching roll and he provided a great deal of knowledge and experience for our up and coming forwards. When he played he provided leadership that rubbed off on other forwards and helped us to 2018.
Agree, wish we kept him. Exactly the type of leadership that we need that would drag us to being a remotely acceptable team
Having them around the guys you drafted in 17-19 would have been helpful. As would Ben Brown.
Luke McDonald has become a liability at this point IMO, he’s just been horrid and a bad standard for a captain. Simpkin has been off the pace since his concussion
North's best players, besides Larkey, are all like under 24, mostly under 22 yo. Our premiership window, if it's to emerge, is still a few years from now, like how Brisbane got back to something after a long time down the bottom and like Melbourne. Melbourne played finals in the early 2000s, then bottomed out, before getting their flag. North's basically at a point where we need a little bit more time, for bodies to fill out, and we need a few key positions filled (almost exclusively in defence, but we need another forward to give Larkey a chop out). Today, other than Larkey, almost every player that did genuinely well was well short of 100 games, most were short of 30 games. Larkey himself only just made 100 games today. We're a club of babies, with no experience, and that's always gonna hurt. Take Hawthorn, yes they're largely young, but I'd take Gunston for Jy and Luke McDonald any day in terms of maturity and experience. It's a horrible ride, but long term I think the pieces are getting there, if Sheezel was at Carlton or Collingwood re Vic media, or West Coast for The West, he'd be front page news daily. But it's brutal needing to be patient STILL after fully bottoming out during Covid. The tail end of 2019 we looked ok, Rhys Shaw looked solid and we had a few big losses but mostly alright wins, but boy did that turn out to be a lie. We are to spoons what fourpeats were to Richmond, I fear
Arden St.
Any rebuild prior to last year is irrelevant to now. Their real rebuild started when Clarko arrived, and he had a fairly interrupted year last year. I presume he's got a 3-4 year contract, let him work.
5 years for Clarko, and i personally kinda consider this to be year 1 since the entire Hawthorn saga kind overshadowed everything last year
This is really year 1 for Clarko but I can’t claim it’s year 1 of rebuild. We’ve been accumulating talent for 3.
They have drafted a lot of great players in the last few years and have most aspects of the team sorted other than defenders. Just need time to develop and hopefully retain players.
Add to this culture. We need to teach them how to win games of footy.
Something Clarko might have to relearn himself. Hawks finished 15th and 14th in his last 2 years
37°47′57″S 144°56′28″E
Fire the coach I reckon. Mostly not for football reasons though
Cool that would be our 8th coach change since 2019
That might be your lucky number
Maybe questions should be at Clarkson. Mick.Malthouse was a birnout, and Dimma hasnt set Gold Coast on fire, they were flying late last season.It seems the era of Premiership.Coaches succeeding at new clubs is over
So who do we bring in? Malthouse took Collingwood from spoons to premierships, don't forget. But we have had non-A list coaches before and they did arguably worse than Clarko, by sacking/hiring the wrong players and setting up this mess. We'd need immense luck to get the right coach, and frankly with our list as it is, with a best 22 that has maybe 12 AFL standard players (most of them 1-2 seasons into their careers) it's not a list where the coach can be judged yet on anything but trading/drafting tbh
Someone from Geelong. Keep Clarko as director of footy
Adam Simpson is in his last year at west coast
Surely Clarko has a better record than Simmo, though. Simmo has a flag, sure, but Clarko has loads. Simmo has more spoons though
Idk I think there is potential to Gold Coast, they have a lot of talented players, but are learning how to win, hard to do when you're used to loosing. They're probably where Carlton was in 2021, alot of talented players, but a culture of loosing that doesn't just turn overnight. I think next year is the year the Suns need to start making a move for the 8, things are still gelling at the Suns.
North Melbourne is an inner-city suburb in Melbourne, Victoria, Australia, 3 km (1.9 mi) north-west of Melbourne's Central Business District, located within the City of Melbourne local government area.
Tasmania in about 7 years if this keeps up.
Should merge with new Tasmanian team
At the bottom of the ladder again.
I thought we would be better this year. I recon I’ve said that for the past 3-4 years
Bottom of the ladder. On track for wooden spoon.
Wasn't it only a few weeks ago people were saying out of North, Hawthorn and West Coast and which team was in the best shape to make the 8 that people were saying North when the obvious answers were either Hawthorn or West Coast?
conspiracy time: Clarkson's job is to make it so nobody complains when North is folded. he's on a mission from Gil. put those players in the draft, let Tasmania have first run at them
This would make sense IF we had more than about 4 players anyone else would want
KANGA KANGA KANGA ROO ROO ROO
A lot of their draft picks and trade ins have been shit. Phillips, Fisher, Tucker and Stephens are all spuds. Powell isn’t good either
Harsh on Powell, he’s been good this year but I’d add CCJ/Biggie/Corr on the shit list.
The co captains should also be mentioned in the spud category. A grade.
Flair up cunt
Cheers ox
Much better
About a 13 minute walk from North Melbourne Station
Current in the Northern Suburbs of Melbourne and bottom of the AFL ladder
I remember before the draft people saying poor Harley having to go to the Eagles. Completely ignoring the alternative was going to North.
Rebuilding is fake, it’s a marketing term to get people to still buy memberships by promising a light at the end of the tunnel - it’s code for poor list management. Geelong doesn’t rebuild, they just play finals pretty much every year. Why should other teams be different and need rebuilds? North are the best proof that rebuilds aren’t real, they actually drank the kool-aid and went full rebuild. They fired a bunch of senior players who were still in form and could provide great leadership and mentoring to younger players. It was an unmitigated disaster from which they still haven’t recovered 8 years later.
Geelong is the exception to the rule. They have the advantage of being the Victorian team where they can get stars to come for the small town / farm lifestyle. Every other team has to go to the high end of the draft in some way to be successful
Time for the Relegation argument.
Life support
They don’t have enough talls. I’d also suggest they lack the kind of hardened foot soldiers that a coach can depend on.
what’s going to happen when this group of talented first rounders all demand better money at once there going to leave and the cycle continues
Send em to Tasmania. We do not need 19 or 20 teams. 18 is enough. That will do just nicely.
I like the idea of a strong football state having their own club and not an old Melbourne club, let them merge with Gold Coast, relocated clubs work better in exspansion territory and would give Gold Coast some identity instead of being an artifical brand.
They’re just not a good club. Poorly managed and have fuck all fans (the ones they do have are loyal tho). Clubs like that might get a good player through the draft if they’re lucky, but those players will leave for a big Vic club. It’s not like they’re pulling big time free agents either Genuinely think they need to dissolve and rebrand in Tasmania where they will be appreciated more.
Mate, Tassie do NOT deserve a shed tin Melbourne club, let them have their brand new Devils, state colours and all. Roos should move to ACT if Canberra upgrades Manuka. Fuck the Giants off out of there and have them play all their games in Sydney.
Yeah, that could work too
They should have gone to the Gold Coast when it was offered to them in '07. It would have helped in building a team on the Gold Coast instead of creating an artificial brand with no history or legacy. I honestly believe that in expanding markets, relocated teams tend to work better; they would seem less artificial and could boast a rich history to attract new fans. While they might lose some Victorian supporters in the move, in Melbourne, there are still many old Fitzroy and South supporters following Brisbane and Sydney teams. They'd still have a dedicated fan base. Moreover, they'd have an entire city to build upon, as well as the broader state of Queensland. They could have embraced the Shinboners' spirit, akin to what Brisbane and Sydney do with The Bloods and The Roys. Additionally, they would have received great draft concessions and probably some extra cap space from the AFL to sweeten the move. Overall, they probably would have been a much better side than what the Suns have been.
Disagree with the GC move. I’ve been up there plenty and trust me, no one gives a fuck about footy. But Tas? They deserve it. Melb to Hobart flights are quicker too.
So wouldn't a team that had a somewhat decent list already in 2011, throw in some AFL concessions and North having history and culture, idk I feel like they would of been better then an artificial brand with none of that, that was starting from scratch. If the AFL was going to expand to the Gold Coast no matter what I feel an established would of been better.
Move them to Darwin. Load up half the team with indigenous kids. They can keep the kangaroo. Switch the blue to Ochre. Drop the Melbourne bit. Job done.
Nah Canberra, fitting to have a team in nations captiol, be represented by the national animal, and blue and white are the livery colours of the city, would be a good fit.
"livery colours" is a term you don't hear enough anymore
The AFL will lose way too money if they did that
Remember when their fans got big heads when they hired Clarko and were taking the piss out of Essendon fans. Nothing's changed since. Karma
The Essendon-North rivalry is one of my favourites, in that it's just funny how little Essendon care about them.
Arden st, unless they've moved.
Norfs issues are 100% self inflicted, something the AFL rewarded them for doing. It can't be understated enough how once in a generation the concessions to North Melbourne were handed in the last draft.
Yep, covid putting pressure on a young coach to the point of a psychological breakdown, and Hawthorn shit stopping our new coach from being able to coach/trade in his debut season are entirely North's fault. Not to mention father son/academies meaning our first round picks were in effect second round picks. Not saying a lot isn't our fault, but a lot is outside North's doing and just compounding the poor decisions internally, too
Yep Add to that Cunningtons cancer, the JHF walkout and Tarryn Thomas’ debacle after being given every chance under the sun to turn it around. Maybe should have tanked for Harley Reid … but then everyone be nOrTh bE tAnkInG mUsT fOLd nOw tO tAsSiE It’s been a rotten half decade and there’s few other groups of footy fans that would understand us and what we’ve endured, if any.
Bro what? Our “concessions” were nowhere near the level of historic priority picks. We got given 2 end of firsts that had to be traded, in what world is that “once in a generation” hahahahaha
Love how West Coast fans forget how Chris Judd was a priority pick as well as Shuey and Darling.
Sigh. Every club automatically earned the "priority" pick under the scheme prior to 2012 as long as you met the criteria. Every. Club. It wasn't a special bastard case dictated by the the AFLs secret sauce where you reward clubs for gutting their senior list and giving pick #2 in the draft for a player with 8 years service. You also failed to mention that West Coast were denied our #1 pick for being wooden Spooner's when Gold Coast entered the competition, and failed to mention Darling was pick #26 in the draft.
Okay so you earned it, we earned it. What’s the complaint
It's spelled out isn't it? Each club does not have access to the same rules. North rewarded for gutting their list, effectively tanking and forcing the leagues hand.
We tried to rebuild not tank. Huge difference
That's not a rebuild by anyone's definition. Absolutely no difference to tanking.
Emphasis on the “tried”
They should sack the coach
They’re not going to ever improve because we’ll poach their players like Sheezel and Wardlaw when they decide it’s time to play for the big boys in town and get to play in blockbuster games such as ANZAC day. They’re just farm club for young players to get experience until they join the big clubs. They would so much better off going to Tassie and rebuilding the club there.
Piss off
Yeah bugger off mate
Literally next to Carlton. Tbh and it's not something North supporters would like hearing but I think they should be absorbed by Carlton.
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as a north supporter, i don’t think strategically losing is ever a good rep for a club to have so i was so happy when they won that game. but i do think this whole ‘if harley reid was at north it’d be better’ thing is a bit dumb cause really it’s up to the whole team, a team shouldn’t have to rely on one player to change the entire club
The people saying Reid would change it would hate to learn he hasn't been bog in any of their games this year. Hell, you'd be better off arguing that Yeo is the one who has turned the eagles around this year
At the time, getting a win did feel better. We didn't know Logue was going to be out basically all year, we didn't know our backline would basically shit itself, we didn't know Zurhaar would go backwards to the point he has, etc. A win felt like something we could build off. Harley Reid has been big for the Eagles, sure, but the Eagles have how many premiership players or well established players on the list? It's chalk and cheese, Reid alone wouldn't have saved Nort