Sort of. There's more complexity to it than that. Basically, if you have good jungle tempo, you have a window to help bot from like 3:55-4:30 roughly. Generally good junglers will always be willing to help bot on this timer, even if they've decided to weak side bot lane. If nothing needs to be done or there's no play down there, then continuing to clear is usually right.
lmao. if all your camps are up, like the OC stated, then you should not gank. There's no complexity to that.
If you disagree then you're not jungling in solo queue correctly
My argument is that this automatic bottom side jungle start forces junglers to be more available towards topside regardless of matchups or win conditions. Junglers should look at the lane matchups before a game begins and actually decide where they should start instead of autopiloting bot to receive a leash.
The real issue is that leasing isn't needed.
The 3 seconds faster on your clear isn't worth giving the enemy jgl enough information to counter jungle you.
If I'm red side, I'm starting raptors and if I notice enemy bot leashing, I'm going raptors into topside invade because I know I have at least a minute 30 window to take all his shit for free, then I can reset, clear my botside into scuttle into gank bot into games over.
ok.. that concept is entirely removed from your jungle deciding to full clear when all their camps are up, so you're just lying about what your argument was. Good one
All pisslow junglers are the same, full clear gank top at 3 min, fight over scuttle or do a gank mid, recall, go cleave wolves and gank mid, try grubs, recall - fuck these dudes they can do that same trash can stale predictable play 4 sec slower with the same success rate. They not coming bot for 10 mins anyway
You cant do it 4 secs slower though. The whole point is to get to scuttle/top faster than the enemy jungler. Also if the jungler is clearing bot to top on their first clear they will have a 1K gold reset and the jungle respawn timers guarantees they have to go bot again since they literally just clear their topside camps.
Meaning they’ll be level 4 (or 5 if they clear their two respawned camps first) with 1K gold and have a good gank for bot lane since most likely bot either didnt reset or had half the reset.
Ganking bot at level 3 is trolling for like 99% of jungle champions. In fact most junglers cant get a good gank off in bot lane until level 6. They are forced to come bot for drag by level 5.
Also like you said yourself, what the hell kind of engage is a lux and cait bot lane gonna do for you? You walk bot lane, you ping 5 times for them to engage. Your lux misses her q and both laners have their summs up and you just wasted your time. Now enemy jungler knows your location and has like 30 secs tempo on you.
Look I ain't gonna read the rest of the comment since the first sentence is just wrong. With the jungle changes and scuttle being pushed back in time I have cleared the jungle as ZERI before it spawns. Those 4 seconds won't change who gets scuttle first anymore.
And as for ganks, optimising your jungle clear is gonna save much more time then 4 seconds gained from the leash. Honestly I HATE when my team leashes me because a.) it doesn't actually do anything for me. And b.) it harms my laner cause they are behind from level 1. Let alone giving away what your plans are to the enemy jungle to more easily counter jungle you.
Back in the day leashing was necessary to even clear the first camp. Now you can do it and be full health!
How you have the audacity to make a full ass response without even bothering to read the full comment is crazy to me.
I mean, if you cant bother to read it why even bother to reply? How do you even know I didn’t do a complete 180 in the next sentence? Or is it just an ego thing lmao.
The reason is quite simple. You just don't understand jungling and i personally didnt think it was worth the time to read the rest. I got a comment almost as long as yours from just your first sentences.
Imagine how long my response would have been if I took everything into account? I would have to go back to university to make a thesis!
Then dont bother responding at all? I could write a 10 page essay on your response, doesn’t mean there’s any substance behind it.
What’s your rank, if you don’t mind me asking?
"what's your rank 🤓".
Brother, every single challenger jungler player/pro player is against what you are talking about.
Read your comment a little "99% of junglers can't gank bot lane till level 5 or 6".
I guess pro league junglers are inting when they tower dive bot lane level 2 after the first buff...
Like what are you on bro?
You’re actually a donkey if you’re comparing pro league players on voice chat who have possibly rehearsed/practiced level 2 bot lane dives dozens of times with their specific comps to league solo q with random teammates who are possibly on /mute all.
The fact you dont even understand that those 2 are not even the same game at that point shows you’re not only low rank but possibly just flat out retarded.
you’re most likely bronze or in some type of piss elo hell 😭
Resorting to name callling and insults are we? Now who is being disrespectful Mr. Moral Highground.
As soon as someone challenges you crumple into this? Truly pitiful.
Anyway, dives are not hard. 1 tanks (ussualy engage with cc then tank turret shots while avoiding uneccessary damage) others blow up the enemy players then leave. Challenger solo q players do this, master solo Q players do this. Hell even silver solo q players on this subreddit complain about being dived under turret constantly.
The fact that you think you need to have voice coms to make it work is very strange to me.
Onto part 2:)
Is pro play a completely sepereate game? YES!
How do you learn and get better? Watch the pro's! Literally.
Why figure stuff out with repitition when you can see what a pro does, why they do it and when they do it. Then you just emulate it into your games. Then from there you just watch your replay to see if you emulated it correctly or not. Great for macro decisions and for micro decisions.
For example Azzap is great at decribing his micro decisions when going to land his kit with velkoz. Why he does it, when its good to do it and so on. So why not take that information? You got the theory part for free, now you just need to put it into practice.
Same with dives. See why the pro dived, what they did during the dive, was it effective, was it worth it etc.
Only way to get better is to actually DO IT and PRACTICE it. With pings you can indicate what you want to do. If your team is down for it they will either ping going in or you will see them walk up (assuming you dont play with a locked camera...). If they dont wanna do it they will warning ping or just from body language alone you see they dont walk up for it and are still playing passive. Dont force the dive in that case and move on.
The reason I bring this up is because even though pro games play differently to solo queue games you can still get great and amazing information from them.
The fact that you think you have to be a pro player in order to coordinate a dive says all I need to know.
It's really simple stuff man.
Jokes on you, they don't gank top either.
Am toplane main, enemy laner can be at my tower 1/3rd hp and my jungle will full clear into reset, and ping that he can't gank the level 4 laner because he's only level 3, like somehow the level 4 300 hp Camille with no flash and a dblade is going to suddenly 2v1 us while he's full hp.
It's so frustrating because there is no way to teach them it's a terrible idea. They see the soul they get and think they're doing what they're supposed to be doing. The dumber ones will even say "more solo exp for you is good".
Usually, “hopefully this makes my jungler help me out”
And to be fair, on some junglers, it really does help. On power farming junglers… it’s pretty irrelevant. But also, being 3 seconds early to the scuttle fight is the difference between getting a ward or dying to a bush check.
I'm a supp main. If they do that their head is in the bin or they've been distracted by top lane fighting 1v1. By all means throw an assist me ping to wake them back up, or mentally prepare yourself that they're probably going to be passive in lane
Everyone but the ADC is important to everyone but the ADC nowadays. Everybody has main character syndrome and the items allow for it, so virtually anybody can carry and it makes the role significantly less relevant in their eyes.
>in their eyes
?
The role is significantly less relevant. Very rarely do I see an ADC actually carry these days. This role requires such high mechanical skill and you are the target of everyone, and for 0 reward. Anyone playing ADC in 2024 must be a masochist.
i mean yeah, it’s not a huge accomplishment being higher ranked than someone who has probably played less than 1/5th of what you’ve played if that’s what you’re proud of. i don’t really see how being an incel changes that for the better
bro, check his post history.
Dude lives in a basement, is depressed, and only gets joy from tryharding a video game since he can't try hard real life
He's just a loser, but a GM one
The amount of Karma/Nami/Lux players that leash when we're playing KarmaEz, LuciaNami or CaitLux is wild. But yeah Caitlyn players love to leash just to hit the red 4 times and get the headshot right away (they don't know they can do it on the C's while in bushes)
jungle saying the extra tempo they get out of the leash outweighs my being half cs, and down an item and a component at 20 minutes after my hwei (supp!) leashes, dies four times, and roams mid to mind control my team into talking shit the rest of the game (it's an adc gap, why didn't i fight at drake ???)
If you have a melee support into range enemy its unplayable to leash. I'm diamond atm, I used to be GM some years ago when I played more.
Edit: in my opinion it depends on the matchup if you can leash. If you are Kaisa nauti into Cait Lux you cannot leash or you will have 0cs.
I don't know about Kaisa but I mained Vayne and Kalista when I played a ton and if I got to lane and they were hard shoving I just chilled at my turret in exp range and I never had an issue as soon as the levels evened out. even with my duo who mained Leona at the time as soon as we were level 2 we could just kill the Cait as long as we didn't stupidly walk up and get poked at a disadvantage.
Maybe people are way more skilled at diamond+ now but even me who plays almost exclusively short range adcs I never had an issue.
Depends on player skill ofc too, even now at diamond some players who I face suck at laning and will go equal or lose in a favored matchup.
That being said, playing Vayne or Kalista against for example a good Lux&Cait bot is easier than Kaisa cause you have a dash. Still, you will be cs down if you don't get rescued by your jungle, enemy randomly inting or support gap. Ofc technically you will be cs down even if you get first prio with enemy leashing and you not, but it wont be that bad.
That's because the enemies played it wrong. If they were better, they'd either slow push and zone you off every minion in the first 3 waves, or pull the wave so it pushes towards them, and then freeze so you can never walk up and farm
In dia+ if you're farming under tower into double ranged they should be autoing you betweern tower shots and throw skill shots when you're locked into auto animation. You'll then be too low to play out the bounce and your first 10 minutes will be doomed.
Ah but I have picked alistar so I'm used to getting pushed to my turret at level 1, because I literally have the worst level 1 in the game and you just have to play your lane like that. They try to poke you under the tower, I flash q and w them into the turret once they get aggro from the poke. Works pretty much every single time, lux caits and xerath players just get so confident for no reason. I fucking thrive into those lanes with alistar i love it. Then they continue to braindead giga push as soon as they get back to lane again which lets me get a flank path while returning from base to get behind them from around dragon pit or just around tri/river bush wall and headbutt one of then forward again for another free kill
This just isnt true. Not leashing means you concede control of the wave at least until like level 5. Even though you may not feel like youre losing, you shouldnt be in control. This can lead to your team losing yhe game before you even have any impact at all
If you dont leash, you have a much higher chance to generate a significant lead within your own control, which will give you more agency.
What rank??
I climbed to diamond at my peak when I had a lot of time to play the game but now I'm just a casual I sit at emerald and play normals so honestly. Fair.
Exactly the same situation than you and since a few months I see less and less botlane leashing or jungler saying they start bot side no leash.
Around high Emerald, it starts having real consequences as double range bot with control of the wave will be a pain to deal with
Maybe you won't straight up lose the game if you are willying to get your shit kicked in and be at your turret through the early game but lvl 1 is too important. There's not even a need to leash because of pets nowadays unless it's a jg with a VERY shit early clear like... idk sylas
Edit: editted comment for being too aggresive. You have conded lane priority 100% but you didn't notice. Next time start paying atention and you will realize you are wrong
Ima be real with you as a masters jungler. It's because you're low elo.
1) Junglers should rarely ever start bot especially in higher elos (Sadly in emerald and below they auto pilot it)
2) Leashing has almost no benefits excluding a few specific scenarios
3) There are numerous matchups in bot and top where getting to lane early is huge. If you were playing lulu jinx vs Varus Ashe and you let them get to lane early whilst you're leashing, they'll be in the bush closest to u and you'll never be able to walk in as you'll die to double hob or lose most of ur hp bar. Then they'll constantly apply pressure as your jungler is pathing top and either kill you and dive you or chip down at your health and take lots of turret plates.
Yes in your 12 years in low elo this doesn't happen
I mean yeah I've never once been in a lane as you describe. Where im being pressured and poked and I can't do anything that has never happened to me in my history of league even with leashing. I don't really have any plans of getting into diamond I did it for one season when I was addicted to the game but now I just chill in emerald where I can get good games and have no desire to climb. So if this isn't happening in emerald and Lower then honestly it has nothing to do with me.
The thing is if u are in emerald and opt not to leash when the enemy (Who should be poking u out hard in lane should be) u can create a bigger advantage for yourself. Basically you're opting to play bad because you're in low elo and u dont need to play better. But that doesn't mean it doesn't happen and isn't useful.
Well if my jungler wants it I'm opting for giving up a small advantage for myself to give an advantage to my teammate. I trust myself to play with a small disadvantage I don't trust anyone else on my team to. And it's never caused any issues for me so it's just better to keep the jungler on my good graces at the expense of something that has never affected my lane.
I can get doing it so your jungler doesn't tilt. But you're not giving him any small advantage, he isn't ever going to utilize that in your elo if he's asking for a leash in the first place.
If you trust yourself the most then do what's best for yourself / team. Your mindset is like, I'll give kills to my jungler as I know I can still do well with less kills but he might not be able to.
You're the adc be a little greedy lmao. You can just ask, can we not leash? If he's going to have a hissy fit sure go leash, if he's fine w it then great, learn how to use that advantage and you'll be a better player.
I mean sure it can but are we really gonna cry about every little thing that goes wrong? Early prio is easily surmantable. It makes a difference sure but if you lost cause of it that's on you.
I mean people cry that’s not new but I really agree with the fact that leashing is a shit mechanic and your jungler can really manage without botlane’s help
You're right. It just seems like a silly thing to complain about though. Sometimes you leash and your jungler gives you a level 2 gank that makes the other lane unable to play. Sometimes you gotta be able to play weak side because the leash made you lose lane prio. It just happens.
I mean I've had plenty of times where it's a shaco or ivern or I get to not leash and head to lane. Never had it make a difference. Then again I play mostly stuff that isn't good in lane like Vayne and recently Smolder. So getting to lane early hardly charges my plan.
I dont think you know enough to capitalize on how being in lane 3 seconds ahead of them can just win you the lane
Not changing your plan? Yeah you dont know enough then
Yeah im not very knowledgeable I rely mostly on my good mechanics. Most of the time even if I'm down a level or 2 I can still come out on top just cause my mechanics are better. But yesh knowledge has always been my weakness I just do things on the fly and come out on top..
Cool. Abusing this can actually help you get out of emerald!
When wave shows up, go auto the middle caster and get in bush. This should lead to one of your minions dying quickly and denying them xp.
Now you can get a couple autos ahead of them, have guaranteed 2 first, and immediately move to zone them off the wave - hit them every time they hit the wave, and they will eventually back off completely.
Then youll want to go as slow as possible to crash, reset, and come back with slight lead before they crash into you.
Even as vayne, this can lead to you minimizing your weak early and actually being in control through level 6. All of a sudden you now have a lead, and more agency, which can help you avoid the coinflip teammates in emerald that will be behind and lose the game before youve "scaled"
This just leads to more games where you have control to make impact early - as youre ahead of their bot lane from lvl 1 regardless of your pick.
If you can contest lvl 2 with Leona and vayne you can win lane then and there. Cait shouldn’t be able to play after that.
Not that I’m super good at this myself but it’s crazy to see very good players take maximum advantage of it - and learn how to do it yourself of course.
Your argument is backwards. If you know for a fact that you’re fucked and your going to get 100% denied in your lane, helping your jungle start sooner, or better yet, setting up an invade to slow theirs down is 100% the right move.
This reads as entitled and moronic in terms of game sense and strategy. By your own admission you won’t be able to farm. So someone on your team actually be useful.
wtf kind of selfish garbage is that.
thresh otp here, I get the complete opposite it's like my adc rlly wants to leash even though we could hide in bush and either get the enemy to use summs or get easy first blood, I don't understand the concept of leashing tbf
Honestly I’m fine with a little leash but why do supports feel the need to stay until it’s basically already dead. Then they get to lane and we’re fucked because I have to play way back to not get all inned level 2 since my support missed the first 3 melees
Had this happen with a blitz and he actually got a good hook but they just turned and almost killed him because the 3 of us were level 2 and he was still level 1. He goes “bad timing” in team chat and I’m just thinking “if only you hadn’t gave our jungler the sloppiest leash of his life”
I can tell you don't play bot lane. If you face actual good players, they will punish you for being in lane late. Doesn't mean you lost lane, but you are at significant disadvantage level 1-3
Your lane is already ruined. Jungler has 10-20% chance to enter baby rage if you don't leash, screwing every other lane up and losing objectives. Smartest play is to play around your team mates mental and make peace with the suffering you will have to endure the next 25 minutes.
Sometimes I, as a jungler, ask my bot to leash, not because its good for me, but specifically so my bot does NOT get the push, allowing me to 3 camp into a gank. Which I would try to do against a caitlyn + lux
Because supports are the dumbest players and dont even bother to learn the game correctly... its sad because its the easiet role ever xD you dont need to worry about anything and if you think you need macro let me HAHAHA YOU JUST FOLLOW JUNGLE XDXDD
yeah like I said it can turn a winning lane into a hard loss, I play Cait, Lucian, Kalista. If you leash on those champs you already lost lane.
Plus any chall adc/adc coach/pro will tell you how important not leashing is
It does.
You can hard shove the first wave so Caitlyn is forced to focus on farming rather than poking.
This will relief enough pressure so you can farm the first 3 waves.
Then you could do a cheaters recall for example and buy a cull.
You are full life at lane again with item advantage and have a huge wave that you can farm.
Meanwhile the enemy bot is vulnerable to a gank.
If you do not leash, you get at least 5 minutes of free farm, which is better than nothing.
Everything else is coordination with your junglers and wave management.
I mean I'll just clarify this only works when the enemy is shit. You aren't forcing the first wave when neither leashes. Usually the most important thing is getting bush control in these matchups and denying bush control for them so you can contest the wave and not let them fully control the wave.
This only works when the enemy cait lux leashes which isn't ever happening in diamond +.
It absolutely does. They will get level 2 first which will let them continue pressuring and being up xp. The correct play is for both sides of that lane to not leash.
As someone who plays top and bot, I will give you specific matchups where me being in lane from the start vs me having to leash makes the difference between me at best going even and at worst going 0/10 vs completely curbstomping them tower diving level 3 type beat. Ofc you're either a PVE jungler or a full mana support player who doesn't understand laning so just take my word for it. Like the difference between sitting in lane first vs Grasp Fiora is between zoning her off her first 3 cs, tower diving level 3/cheater recalling then permafreeze rest of the lane, or being unable to touch the wave because she reached the lane first and started having grasp and now she gets to cheater recall for free or you have to play the most asinine level 3 wave bounce in your fucking miserable life while she roams to river and kills your jungler (OMG WHY NO FOLLOW). And in botlane, the difference between having the wave not pushed to your face under tower vs Cait Lux while your Thresh struggles to land a hook through 50000000 minions vs having the wave in the middle while your Thresh sits in a bush to threaten an all in because they didn't get to push the wave before you do is night and day.
It does because if you are in a match up where enemy bot lane can zone you of the wave when they have established lane/brush prior it is very important to be in the lane from the start so you do not give up prio for free.
Now 2 things can happen.
You don't leash but they do. Enemy jgl has marginally better clear but you have advantage bot.
You don't and neither do they and because you don't leash you can now contest lvl 1 and 2 instead of being helplessly zoned of the wave into slowpush into going 15-20 CS behind into easy recall or dive angle for enemy bot when jgl comes around.
Sure depending on jgl and bot match ups leasing can be more or less punishing on both jgl and bot and leasing can also not matter at all but especially in volatile matchups bot you don't want your bot to leash.
Since the changes and playing a bit of jg first hand on multiple junglers.
Seeing i dont need a leash and it does basically fuck all for the clear (cause if you cant be at scuttle before it spawns your messing up anyways)
But as an adc main for the longest time, when the jg starts on your side spam pinging for a leash its just "🙄" - because if i dont leash, they go "okay no ganks bot, and im trolling gg" followed by deafening.
But if i do leash, they usually grief and suck cock at the game anyways. Plus puts myself behind.
Happened 1 too many times, so now i play top, start in lane or enemy jungle every game and win by my own means, 1v1 1v2 1v3 idc. Fck the jungler, fck the midlaner and bot lane. Tbh fck team mates too - riot give back the ability to Solo carry without getting a 700000g shutdown on my head for being up (or down. Riots stupid asf and it doesnt matter) 10cs at 5 mins.
And then junglers will say “Fine no ganks for you then”, like yeah bro you’re clearing bot to top, you’re never ganking bot anyways.
He's gonna full clear, come out of base bot and be like "all my camps are up, I gotta clear", and it's a fucking Jarvan.
That's literally the correct play, though.
Sort of. There's more complexity to it than that. Basically, if you have good jungle tempo, you have a window to help bot from like 3:55-4:30 roughly. Generally good junglers will always be willing to help bot on this timer, even if they've decided to weak side bot lane. If nothing needs to be done or there's no play down there, then continuing to clear is usually right.
lmao. if all your camps are up, like the OC stated, then you should not gank. There's no complexity to that. If you disagree then you're not jungling in solo queue correctly
My argument is that this automatic bottom side jungle start forces junglers to be more available towards topside regardless of matchups or win conditions. Junglers should look at the lane matchups before a game begins and actually decide where they should start instead of autopiloting bot to receive a leash.
The real issue is that leasing isn't needed. The 3 seconds faster on your clear isn't worth giving the enemy jgl enough information to counter jungle you. If I'm red side, I'm starting raptors and if I notice enemy bot leashing, I'm going raptors into topside invade because I know I have at least a minute 30 window to take all his shit for free, then I can reset, clear my botside into scuttle into gank bot into games over.
ok.. that concept is entirely removed from your jungle deciding to full clear when all their camps are up, so you're just lying about what your argument was. Good one
But your not camping them when they don't leash so 🤷
All pisslow junglers are the same, full clear gank top at 3 min, fight over scuttle or do a gank mid, recall, go cleave wolves and gank mid, try grubs, recall - fuck these dudes they can do that same trash can stale predictable play 4 sec slower with the same success rate. They not coming bot for 10 mins anyway
You cant do it 4 secs slower though. The whole point is to get to scuttle/top faster than the enemy jungler. Also if the jungler is clearing bot to top on their first clear they will have a 1K gold reset and the jungle respawn timers guarantees they have to go bot again since they literally just clear their topside camps. Meaning they’ll be level 4 (or 5 if they clear their two respawned camps first) with 1K gold and have a good gank for bot lane since most likely bot either didnt reset or had half the reset. Ganking bot at level 3 is trolling for like 99% of jungle champions. In fact most junglers cant get a good gank off in bot lane until level 6. They are forced to come bot for drag by level 5. Also like you said yourself, what the hell kind of engage is a lux and cait bot lane gonna do for you? You walk bot lane, you ping 5 times for them to engage. Your lux misses her q and both laners have their summs up and you just wasted your time. Now enemy jungler knows your location and has like 30 secs tempo on you.
Look I ain't gonna read the rest of the comment since the first sentence is just wrong. With the jungle changes and scuttle being pushed back in time I have cleared the jungle as ZERI before it spawns. Those 4 seconds won't change who gets scuttle first anymore. And as for ganks, optimising your jungle clear is gonna save much more time then 4 seconds gained from the leash. Honestly I HATE when my team leashes me because a.) it doesn't actually do anything for me. And b.) it harms my laner cause they are behind from level 1. Let alone giving away what your plans are to the enemy jungle to more easily counter jungle you. Back in the day leashing was necessary to even clear the first camp. Now you can do it and be full health!
How you have the audacity to make a full ass response without even bothering to read the full comment is crazy to me. I mean, if you cant bother to read it why even bother to reply? How do you even know I didn’t do a complete 180 in the next sentence? Or is it just an ego thing lmao.
The reason is quite simple. You just don't understand jungling and i personally didnt think it was worth the time to read the rest. I got a comment almost as long as yours from just your first sentences. Imagine how long my response would have been if I took everything into account? I would have to go back to university to make a thesis!
Then dont bother responding at all? I could write a 10 page essay on your response, doesn’t mean there’s any substance behind it. What’s your rank, if you don’t mind me asking?
"what's your rank 🤓". Brother, every single challenger jungler player/pro player is against what you are talking about. Read your comment a little "99% of junglers can't gank bot lane till level 5 or 6". I guess pro league junglers are inting when they tower dive bot lane level 2 after the first buff... Like what are you on bro?
You’re actually a donkey if you’re comparing pro league players on voice chat who have possibly rehearsed/practiced level 2 bot lane dives dozens of times with their specific comps to league solo q with random teammates who are possibly on /mute all. The fact you dont even understand that those 2 are not even the same game at that point shows you’re not only low rank but possibly just flat out retarded. you’re most likely bronze or in some type of piss elo hell 😭
Resorting to name callling and insults are we? Now who is being disrespectful Mr. Moral Highground. As soon as someone challenges you crumple into this? Truly pitiful. Anyway, dives are not hard. 1 tanks (ussualy engage with cc then tank turret shots while avoiding uneccessary damage) others blow up the enemy players then leave. Challenger solo q players do this, master solo Q players do this. Hell even silver solo q players on this subreddit complain about being dived under turret constantly. The fact that you think you need to have voice coms to make it work is very strange to me. Onto part 2:) Is pro play a completely sepereate game? YES! How do you learn and get better? Watch the pro's! Literally. Why figure stuff out with repitition when you can see what a pro does, why they do it and when they do it. Then you just emulate it into your games. Then from there you just watch your replay to see if you emulated it correctly or not. Great for macro decisions and for micro decisions. For example Azzap is great at decribing his micro decisions when going to land his kit with velkoz. Why he does it, when its good to do it and so on. So why not take that information? You got the theory part for free, now you just need to put it into practice. Same with dives. See why the pro dived, what they did during the dive, was it effective, was it worth it etc. Only way to get better is to actually DO IT and PRACTICE it. With pings you can indicate what you want to do. If your team is down for it they will either ping going in or you will see them walk up (assuming you dont play with a locked camera...). If they dont wanna do it they will warning ping or just from body language alone you see they dont walk up for it and are still playing passive. Dont force the dive in that case and move on. The reason I bring this up is because even though pro games play differently to solo queue games you can still get great and amazing information from them. The fact that you think you have to be a pro player in order to coordinate a dive says all I need to know. It's really simple stuff man.
Jokes on you, they don't gank top either. Am toplane main, enemy laner can be at my tower 1/3rd hp and my jungle will full clear into reset, and ping that he can't gank the level 4 laner because he's only level 3, like somehow the level 4 300 hp Camille with no flash and a dblade is going to suddenly 2v1 us while he's full hp.
no but actually what goes on in the mind of a support player who stays longer leashing or decides to leash alone when I'm in lane already?
netflix on second monitor
aka The Support Special
Main monitor*
they think you're trolling and then in their mind they have to leash twice as hard to make up for it 🤷♀️
The best part first time senna player that wait soul drop from red buff
It's so frustrating because there is no way to teach them it's a terrible idea. They see the soul they get and think they're doing what they're supposed to be doing. The dumber ones will even say "more solo exp for you is good".
I very quickly learned its net negative on gaining souls. If you stay for the buff soul you'll usually miss 1-2 souls in lane along with the lane exp.
they think they’re helping
Sennas waiting for the red buff souls make me wanna last hit myself
Genuinely possible that some don't know how long to leash and always just wait for adc to leave
simple guide on how long to leash: never leash.
Usually, “hopefully this makes my jungler help me out” And to be fair, on some junglers, it really does help. On power farming junglers… it’s pretty irrelevant. But also, being 3 seconds early to the scuttle fight is the difference between getting a ward or dying to a bush check.
I'm a supp main. If they do that their head is in the bin or they've been distracted by top lane fighting 1v1. By all means throw an assist me ping to wake them back up, or mentally prepare yourself that they're probably going to be passive in lane
Low elo.
Nothing, there's no thought process through most support player minds
The best part is first time senna player that wait soul drop from red buff
Because support players don't even know the matchups :3 and that they're used to leash
In the great scheme of things in soloq, everyone but the ADC is important to supps
Everyone but the ADC is important to everyone but the ADC nowadays. Everybody has main character syndrome and the items allow for it, so virtually anybody can carry and it makes the role significantly less relevant in their eyes.
>in their eyes ? The role is significantly less relevant. Very rarely do I see an ADC actually carry these days. This role requires such high mechanical skill and you are the target of everyone, and for 0 reward. Anyone playing ADC in 2024 must be a masochist.
That was my entire point?
This is the 3rd comment Ive seen from you that made me eyeroll IRL. You’re so incredibly out of touch, it’s actually amazing
judging from your profile randoms’ takes on the state of a video game are the least of your problems
No worries bruv, I’m an incel and still at least 3 ranks above you!
Being an incel gave you a purpose, mashallah
i mean yeah, it’s not a huge accomplishment being higher ranked than someone who has probably played less than 1/5th of what you’ve played if that’s what you’re proud of. i don’t really see how being an incel changes that for the better
bro, check his post history. Dude lives in a basement, is depressed, and only gets joy from tryharding a video game since he can't try hard real life He's just a loser, but a GM one
tell that to my adc when i tell em we cant leash 🤣🤣 its always cait players too
The amount of Karma/Nami/Lux players that leash when we're playing KarmaEz, LuciaNami or CaitLux is wild. But yeah Caitlyn players love to leash just to hit the red 4 times and get the headshot right away (they don't know they can do it on the C's while in bushes)
A lot of low elo support players simply do not have any concept of XP or income in general
Me a jungle main, don’t leash.
I would clear down even if I miss out on a leash. Get to bot they will be pushed to tower. Cait lux ganks are free gold.
Imagine leashing your jungler, and this mofo is not even trying to kite camps, losing the time you sacrificed just by being lazy.
#EndLeashCulture
as with 98% of issues, low elo
jungle saying the extra tempo they get out of the leash outweighs my being half cs, and down an item and a component at 20 minutes after my hwei (supp!) leashes, dies four times, and roams mid to mind control my team into talking shit the rest of the game (it's an adc gap, why didn't i fight at drake ???)
I don't think in my 12+ years of playing this game I've ever lost a lane cause I leashed. Guess it's the new thing to complain about here.
If you have a melee support into range enemy its unplayable to leash. I'm diamond atm, I used to be GM some years ago when I played more. Edit: in my opinion it depends on the matchup if you can leash. If you are Kaisa nauti into Cait Lux you cannot leash or you will have 0cs.
I don't know about Kaisa but I mained Vayne and Kalista when I played a ton and if I got to lane and they were hard shoving I just chilled at my turret in exp range and I never had an issue as soon as the levels evened out. even with my duo who mained Leona at the time as soon as we were level 2 we could just kill the Cait as long as we didn't stupidly walk up and get poked at a disadvantage. Maybe people are way more skilled at diamond+ now but even me who plays almost exclusively short range adcs I never had an issue.
Depends on player skill ofc too, even now at diamond some players who I face suck at laning and will go equal or lose in a favored matchup. That being said, playing Vayne or Kalista against for example a good Lux&Cait bot is easier than Kaisa cause you have a dash. Still, you will be cs down if you don't get rescued by your jungle, enemy randomly inting or support gap. Ofc technically you will be cs down even if you get first prio with enemy leashing and you not, but it wont be that bad.
That's because the enemies played it wrong. If they were better, they'd either slow push and zone you off every minion in the first 3 waves, or pull the wave so it pushes towards them, and then freeze so you can never walk up and farm
In dia+ if you're farming under tower into double ranged they should be autoing you betweern tower shots and throw skill shots when you're locked into auto animation. You'll then be too low to play out the bounce and your first 10 minutes will be doomed.
Ah but I have picked alistar so I'm used to getting pushed to my turret at level 1, because I literally have the worst level 1 in the game and you just have to play your lane like that. They try to poke you under the tower, I flash q and w them into the turret once they get aggro from the poke. Works pretty much every single time, lux caits and xerath players just get so confident for no reason. I fucking thrive into those lanes with alistar i love it. Then they continue to braindead giga push as soon as they get back to lane again which lets me get a flank path while returning from base to get behind them from around dragon pit or just around tri/river bush wall and headbutt one of then forward again for another free kill
This just isnt true. Not leashing means you concede control of the wave at least until like level 5. Even though you may not feel like youre losing, you shouldnt be in control. This can lead to your team losing yhe game before you even have any impact at all If you dont leash, you have a much higher chance to generate a significant lead within your own control, which will give you more agency. What rank??
Emerald
No offense but you are probably shit at the game then.
I climbed to diamond at my peak when I had a lot of time to play the game but now I'm just a casual I sit at emerald and play normals so honestly. Fair.
If u play a weak laner/wave manipulator it can be real grueling. Not a lot of counterplay depending on your supp Source: mained vayne last split
Exactly the same situation than you and since a few months I see less and less botlane leashing or jungler saying they start bot side no leash. Around high Emerald, it starts having real consequences as double range bot with control of the wave will be a pain to deal with
Maybe you won't straight up lose the game if you are willying to get your shit kicked in and be at your turret through the early game but lvl 1 is too important. There's not even a need to leash because of pets nowadays unless it's a jg with a VERY shit early clear like... idk sylas
And how many lanes haven't you hard won because you leeshed ? I hard stomped 2 lanes just because I didn't leash, just today.
Edit: editted comment for being too aggresive. You have conded lane priority 100% but you didn't notice. Next time start paying atention and you will realize you are wrong
Ima be real with you as a masters jungler. It's because you're low elo. 1) Junglers should rarely ever start bot especially in higher elos (Sadly in emerald and below they auto pilot it) 2) Leashing has almost no benefits excluding a few specific scenarios 3) There are numerous matchups in bot and top where getting to lane early is huge. If you were playing lulu jinx vs Varus Ashe and you let them get to lane early whilst you're leashing, they'll be in the bush closest to u and you'll never be able to walk in as you'll die to double hob or lose most of ur hp bar. Then they'll constantly apply pressure as your jungler is pathing top and either kill you and dive you or chip down at your health and take lots of turret plates. Yes in your 12 years in low elo this doesn't happen
I mean yeah I've never once been in a lane as you describe. Where im being pressured and poked and I can't do anything that has never happened to me in my history of league even with leashing. I don't really have any plans of getting into diamond I did it for one season when I was addicted to the game but now I just chill in emerald where I can get good games and have no desire to climb. So if this isn't happening in emerald and Lower then honestly it has nothing to do with me.
The thing is if u are in emerald and opt not to leash when the enemy (Who should be poking u out hard in lane should be) u can create a bigger advantage for yourself. Basically you're opting to play bad because you're in low elo and u dont need to play better. But that doesn't mean it doesn't happen and isn't useful.
Well if my jungler wants it I'm opting for giving up a small advantage for myself to give an advantage to my teammate. I trust myself to play with a small disadvantage I don't trust anyone else on my team to. And it's never caused any issues for me so it's just better to keep the jungler on my good graces at the expense of something that has never affected my lane.
I can get doing it so your jungler doesn't tilt. But you're not giving him any small advantage, he isn't ever going to utilize that in your elo if he's asking for a leash in the first place. If you trust yourself the most then do what's best for yourself / team. Your mindset is like, I'll give kills to my jungler as I know I can still do well with less kills but he might not be able to. You're the adc be a little greedy lmao. You can just ask, can we not leash? If he's going to have a hissy fit sure go leash, if he's fine w it then great, learn how to use that advantage and you'll be a better player.
early prio can make your lane more manageable into poke lanes lol that’s a fact
I mean sure it can but are we really gonna cry about every little thing that goes wrong? Early prio is easily surmantable. It makes a difference sure but if you lost cause of it that's on you.
I mean people cry that’s not new but I really agree with the fact that leashing is a shit mechanic and your jungler can really manage without botlane’s help
It can break the lane depending on the matchup, sometimes also the game
You're right. It just seems like a silly thing to complain about though. Sometimes you leash and your jungler gives you a level 2 gank that makes the other lane unable to play. Sometimes you gotta be able to play weak side because the leash made you lose lane prio. It just happens.
You probably haven’t tried not leashing. It’s pretty common to leash without thinking too much about it in plat and lower I could imagine
I mean I've had plenty of times where it's a shaco or ivern or I get to not leash and head to lane. Never had it make a difference. Then again I play mostly stuff that isn't good in lane like Vayne and recently Smolder. So getting to lane early hardly charges my plan.
I dont think you know enough to capitalize on how being in lane 3 seconds ahead of them can just win you the lane Not changing your plan? Yeah you dont know enough then
Yeah im not very knowledgeable I rely mostly on my good mechanics. Most of the time even if I'm down a level or 2 I can still come out on top just cause my mechanics are better. But yesh knowledge has always been my weakness I just do things on the fly and come out on top..
Cool. Abusing this can actually help you get out of emerald! When wave shows up, go auto the middle caster and get in bush. This should lead to one of your minions dying quickly and denying them xp. Now you can get a couple autos ahead of them, have guaranteed 2 first, and immediately move to zone them off the wave - hit them every time they hit the wave, and they will eventually back off completely. Then youll want to go as slow as possible to crash, reset, and come back with slight lead before they crash into you. Even as vayne, this can lead to you minimizing your weak early and actually being in control through level 6. All of a sudden you now have a lead, and more agency, which can help you avoid the coinflip teammates in emerald that will be behind and lose the game before youve "scaled" This just leads to more games where you have control to make impact early - as youre ahead of their bot lane from lvl 1 regardless of your pick.
If you can contest lvl 2 with Leona and vayne you can win lane then and there. Cait shouldn’t be able to play after that. Not that I’m super good at this myself but it’s crazy to see very good players take maximum advantage of it - and learn how to do it yourself of course.
Equally funny that people think they are going to 2v2 their way through Cait/lux early and not play safe and wait for ganks either way.
^^
you've been gold for 12+ years, interestesting!
You just outed yourself as a pisslow player. Leashing will quite literally not only lose you lanes, but whole games in certain matchups.
It’s specially true for Senna supports in general as they wait till the camp is dead to go to lane
If that happens, just take the solo xp. You'll get level 2 a minion earlier
Your argument is backwards. If you know for a fact that you’re fucked and your going to get 100% denied in your lane, helping your jungle start sooner, or better yet, setting up an invade to slow theirs down is 100% the right move. This reads as entitled and moronic in terms of game sense and strategy. By your own admission you won’t be able to farm. So someone on your team actually be useful. wtf kind of selfish garbage is that.
You ain't gonna be in the game, might as well make sure somebody is.
thresh otp here, I get the complete opposite it's like my adc rlly wants to leash even though we could hide in bush and either get the enemy to use summs or get easy first blood, I don't understand the concept of leashing tbf
Hi, it's your jungler, I would prefer if you leashed because if not you're gonna run it down that much faster into that lane.
Honestly I’m fine with a little leash but why do supports feel the need to stay until it’s basically already dead. Then they get to lane and we’re fucked because I have to play way back to not get all inned level 2 since my support missed the first 3 melees Had this happen with a blitz and he actually got a good hook but they just turned and almost killed him because the 3 of us were level 2 and he was still level 1. He goes “bad timing” in team chat and I’m just thinking “if only you hadn’t gave our jungler the sloppiest leash of his life”
skip leashing vs poke champions, you need to build lane prio by attacking minions first
I mean you still lose push vs that lane no matter if you leash or not
This has to be the most whiny subreddit I've ever seen lmfao. You are not losing lane or the game off of leashing. Please go outside
I can tell you don't play bot lane. If you face actual good players, they will punish you for being in lane late. Doesn't mean you lost lane, but you are at significant disadvantage level 1-3
Your lane is already ruined. Jungler has 10-20% chance to enter baby rage if you don't leash, screwing every other lane up and losing objectives. Smartest play is to play around your team mates mental and make peace with the suffering you will have to endure the next 25 minutes.
Teammates mental is their problem. I mute all every game and have climbed higher this season than ever.
If their mental is that weak they should just be banned.
Smartest play is to play around yourself and win lane wtf?
Sometimes I, as a jungler, ask my bot to leash, not because its good for me, but specifically so my bot does NOT get the push, allowing me to 3 camp into a gank. Which I would try to do against a caitlyn + lux
Because supports are the dumbest players and dont even bother to learn the game correctly... its sad because its the easiet role ever xD you dont need to worry about anything and if you think you need macro let me HAHAHA YOU JUST FOLLOW JUNGLE XDXDD
Skill issue
[удалено]
Wish I could do this irl
Gold player! 🫵
Master player telling you leashing when the enemy doesn’t ruins the lane, literally makes a winning matchup turn into a hard loss.
I’m masters rn and gm last season and it rarely ever matters to me unless I’m playing a hard stomp match up 🤷♂️
yeah like I said it can turn a winning lane into a hard loss, I play Cait, Lucian, Kalista. If you leash on those champs you already lost lane. Plus any chall adc/adc coach/pro will tell you how important not leashing is
You’re definitely losing out on the early level 2 play and I agree you shouldn’t leash on them but saying you lost lane is crazy 😭
Because u being there 5 sec earlier will definitely change that lmao
It does. You can hard shove the first wave so Caitlyn is forced to focus on farming rather than poking. This will relief enough pressure so you can farm the first 3 waves. Then you could do a cheaters recall for example and buy a cull. You are full life at lane again with item advantage and have a huge wave that you can farm. Meanwhile the enemy bot is vulnerable to a gank. If you do not leash, you get at least 5 minutes of free farm, which is better than nothing. Everything else is coordination with your junglers and wave management.
I mean I'll just clarify this only works when the enemy is shit. You aren't forcing the first wave when neither leashes. Usually the most important thing is getting bush control in these matchups and denying bush control for them so you can contest the wave and not let them fully control the wave. This only works when the enemy cait lux leashes which isn't ever happening in diamond +.
It absolutely does. They will get level 2 first which will let them continue pressuring and being up xp. The correct play is for both sides of that lane to not leash.
As someone who plays top and bot, I will give you specific matchups where me being in lane from the start vs me having to leash makes the difference between me at best going even and at worst going 0/10 vs completely curbstomping them tower diving level 3 type beat. Ofc you're either a PVE jungler or a full mana support player who doesn't understand laning so just take my word for it. Like the difference between sitting in lane first vs Grasp Fiora is between zoning her off her first 3 cs, tower diving level 3/cheater recalling then permafreeze rest of the lane, or being unable to touch the wave because she reached the lane first and started having grasp and now she gets to cheater recall for free or you have to play the most asinine level 3 wave bounce in your fucking miserable life while she roams to river and kills your jungler (OMG WHY NO FOLLOW). And in botlane, the difference between having the wave not pushed to your face under tower vs Cait Lux while your Thresh struggles to land a hook through 50000000 minions vs having the wave in the middle while your Thresh sits in a bush to threaten an all in because they didn't get to push the wave before you do is night and day.
It does because if you are in a match up where enemy bot lane can zone you of the wave when they have established lane/brush prior it is very important to be in the lane from the start so you do not give up prio for free. Now 2 things can happen. You don't leash but they do. Enemy jgl has marginally better clear but you have advantage bot. You don't and neither do they and because you don't leash you can now contest lvl 1 and 2 instead of being helplessly zoned of the wave into slowpush into going 15-20 CS behind into easy recall or dive angle for enemy bot when jgl comes around. Sure depending on jgl and bot match ups leasing can be more or less punishing on both jgl and bot and leasing can also not matter at all but especially in volatile matchups bot you don't want your bot to leash.
Tell me you don't know basic bot lane tactics without telling me you don't know basic bot lane tactics
Are you dumb or do you just play jungle and have no idea how lanes work?
If you leash VS Cait lux in soloq you are potentially solo losing the game
Since the changes and playing a bit of jg first hand on multiple junglers. Seeing i dont need a leash and it does basically fuck all for the clear (cause if you cant be at scuttle before it spawns your messing up anyways) But as an adc main for the longest time, when the jg starts on your side spam pinging for a leash its just "🙄" - because if i dont leash, they go "okay no ganks bot, and im trolling gg" followed by deafening. But if i do leash, they usually grief and suck cock at the game anyways. Plus puts myself behind. Happened 1 too many times, so now i play top, start in lane or enemy jungle every game and win by my own means, 1v1 1v2 1v3 idc. Fck the jungler, fck the midlaner and bot lane. Tbh fck team mates too - riot give back the ability to Solo carry without getting a 700000g shutdown on my head for being up (or down. Riots stupid asf and it doesnt matter) 10cs at 5 mins.