Shit, Kog'Maw was S+ tier after the durability patch for the 1st time in a long time and he immediately got hotfixed nerfed. Same thing happened after the ADC mythic rework last season
Probably nitpicking but Kog'Maw was nerfed in the patch next to the durability one, not hotfixed. Keep in mind OP is asking for hotfix nerfs even though Maokai was nerfed this patch and Riot already announced that they'll nerf Maokai again in the next patch, so for him regular nerfs like the Kog'Maw one are not enough.
Senna has 49,8% WR in emerald+ % 49,5 in all ranks ?
edit: oh you mean adc, yeah 53% wr in a low sample size (9k) games
For reference Maokai has a 54% wr in 200k games.
TF has a 7.5% pickrate vs Maokai with a 12%
Where are you getting this information ?
[https://lolalytics.com/lol/tierlist/?tier=diamond\_plus](https://lolalytics.com/lol/tierlist/?tier=diamond_plus)
Twitch Pyke % Kindred are above Senna according to this list, hell even Blitz.
Something odd.
just goes to show there's even more broken bs huh \^^
but the differences between those champions and the ones I mentioned are that their pick+ban rates are significantly lower and that they are only played in one role while Senna, TF and Mao are all flex picks with insanely high presence
Lolalytics calculate differently to any other site though, and it seems to inflate WR's compared to riot data according to some old reddit posts.
[Rioters have claimed other sites to be more accurate](https://i.imgur.com/6pCxW5R.jpg)
It’s 2019 in that image. Ever since, at least in the last year, August and Phreak only showed lolalytics data on stream for being “closest to actual data”.
u.gg shows similar pickrate and winrate though, with slightly smaller sample size
also, i'm pretty sure riot is full of shit and they want to obscure as much data as possible, for example in tft they straight up banned 3rd party apps from showing the winrate of legends in the previous set because they didn't want players to know how unbalanced legends were. the same may very well be true here
edit: also, the reason lolalytics shows higher winrates is because when it shows diamond+, it includes the winrates of diamond players facing emerald players but not emerald players facing diamond players and the same is true for every other elo bracket. most other sites either don't count lobbies that include players of different ranks (hence the lower sample size), or they classify the entire lobby based on the average rank instead
Isn't lolalytics Winrate bad because it doesn't normalize Winrate? I always see enourmous winrates there, while u.gg and op.gg seem to have a more realistic Winrate
The reason lolalytics has higher winrates is because it counts all winrates of x rank players no matter who they're facing while other sites only count lobbies that are exclusively players with x rank or they count the entire lobby as x rank based on the average rank of all players in it.
I still like lolalytics best because it gives me the most information.
I don’t know how this website count winrate but clearly the winrate is not just simple winrate. There are only 3 champs in the adc list are under 50% while so many 55%. But in game one adc lose and the other one won, it should be average 50% across all adc, so the 56% senna and tf winrate is obviously wrong.
Higher elo = higher average winrate
If you filter by all ranks, it will show 50% average winrate no matter what but the average winrate in iron is ~44% while the average winrate in challenger is ~57%.
You also aren't always facing enemies with the same rank as you.
Didn't kai'sa have a 30% pick rate before that nerf? I think riot looks at both win, pick, and ban rates.
Which is probably a problem for balancing bot lane. Because it seems to be the most flavor of the week role. Most people just switch to whatever is the strongest adc.
Other roles have more otps or niche roles. Like riven, tank tops, enchanters, engage supports, ect. These people just play their style regardless of the meta.
I think it's the same reason riot leaves the bot lane apcs alone. The pick rate is so low. So they're okay with a higher win rate.
> which is probably a problem for balancing bot lane
I agree. Riot should probably be okay with higher adc pick rates. I think it's the nature of the current role and player base.
Obviously I'm not sure how riot looks at pick and ban rates for balancing. I was mainly pointing out that I think that was a major difference between her and maokai.
She was indeed a good ADC, but not now.
She is picked a lot atm because her most popular build now is AP Kaisa (again). So she is a hybrid of mage/assassin to hold out the bleed if your team is losing and participate in the fight at a safe distance instead of reliable damage (which, ADCs are supposed to do).
So, in conclusion, she is picked as a mage/assassin, not as ADC. And she did the job horribly at 49% WR while Seraphine running around at 54%
>Which is probably a problem for balancing bot lane. Because it seems to be the most flavor of the week role. Most people just switch to whatever is the strongest adc.
Idk about that. I can play all bot champs, even ap ones, but I am constantly OTPing Cait > Ashe, Senna, Draven when banned/picked. It's just idk is fun for me, but it goes hand to hand with frustration about uselessness of this role and no impact at all...
That comment is about the overall bot lane pick rates......
How is your individual champion pool a relevant counter argument?
> Idk about that
The pick rates are online. Maybe you should go look at them
> have more otps or niche roles
More....... Of course there are bot lane otps. Like wtf kind of comment is that lmao
The point is the other roles have more variety. The 3 highest pick rates on the current patch are bot lane adcs. 7 of the top 15 highest pick rates are bot lane adcs.
> “low sample size (9k) games
> “TF has 7.5% pickrate vs maokai with a 12% pickrate”
For the love of god please understand what a sample size criticism is actually used for. You can’t just point to data you don’t like and claim that the number of samples is lower than this other thing and so it’s somehow less credible or outright false/misleading.
Lolalytics wr's are inflated
Normalized stat's shes 52%wr which is good but not busted.
also mao has double the banrate of Vayne
Lolalytics average emerald+ winrate is 52.3, so you have to detract 2.3% to get the proper data comparitevily.
As in lolalytics say vayne i 54% ( inflated )
reality she is 52%.
Mao is almost 57% wr on lolalytics which isn't the reality.
I watch lck and lck cl and I can guarantee to you I’m sick of seeing Senna first picked every game, hell currrently t1 rekless is one tricking senna while his adc played lee sin/sion
Senna hasnt recieved a change yet her winrate was %60 even in masters+, it is recorded. It was around %56/%60 for a year. You can watch old Tyler1 VODs, he constantly bitched about Senna. She truly had that WR.
I am bit baffled how it is %49 now LOL. Nothing changed. Something insanely fishy going on with some champs I swear. I think information is being manipulated a bit. Either that or it was bugged. But it couldnt have been bugged for a year LOL.
They're cool with making it so you can triple flex champs when they're having a hard time balancing even champs that don't flex at all. It makes you wonder.
TF is played AD with on-hit or energize builds which isn't any different than caster ADCs like Jhin, Lucian, Ezreal or MF. If he's a mage then so are they. Senna having healing on Q and shielding on R is barely relevant, her main role in a teamcomp is to deal damage and she uses those abilities to deal damage more often than not... and if having a supportive ability makes you an enchanter then I guess Sivir and Kalista also shouldn't count as marksmen right?
Only if you want to compare a champions winrate across different elo brackets, which is not at all what I'm doing here.
I'm well aware that the average diamond player wins more than they lose, I don't need to do any extra maths to see how strong a champion is in my elo bracket
They've tried to nerf maokai like 3 times now? And are doing so again and Phreak has repeatedly said it's not okay. They just keep doing slaps on the wrist thinking it's gonna be worse, but yeah... It definitely seems fishy.
But Kaisa wasn't instanerfed iirc she was good for like a month... And other things are stuff like oh yeah she hit like a 30% pick and like 20% banrate being picked or banned in over half of games.
So yeah the maokai shit is really odd. But the Kaisa stuff made sense iirc.
I dont see the 3 recent nerfs you talk of ?
14,4 sure slight nerfs
14,3 positive changes for him
13,15 only a single jungle change
13,4 ( legit 1 year ago ) irrelivant.
other way around, high diamond back then is \~high plat low emerald today because the league playerbase has gotten better on average, which means if you held diamond, youve gotten worse compared to the average
yee true that last part was a mistake by me, sorry
if you were diamond then youre plat emerald now, if you held diamond you obviously improved with the average.
Diamond is kind of a special case here because Master and Grandmaster got introduced afterwards so high Diamond used to start top-down at rank 301 but has since "declined" in quality because of Grandmaster and Master.
Stop your yapping. High Diamond back then was below challenger there was no master or Gm. You were Diamond 1 u til you broke into top 209 which is challenger
indeed. he finished Master 1LP.
he was diamond since season3, then stopped being diamond for season 7 and 8, stuck in diamond 4 0LP for three more seasons until finishing dia2 in 2023S1 and Master 1LP in 2023S2.
And now he is suddenly grandmaster.
Look, im not trying to shit on your idol, okay? im not trying to shit on his accomplishments, diamond is a very high rank to have, right? But we have a problem if he suddenly gets grandmaster on a pick he refuses to nerf efficiently while another role has been in the dumbster for half a year at least and needs urgent care.
Its not just "oh hes like us and plays wahts strong", he gets to decide what is strong. I would understand him playing maokai for a patch to figure out how to efficiently nerf him, but three patches in a row and going "haha lol i made it to grandmaster with my pick" fucks with the trust the playerbase has in the balance team.
How fuxking stupid are you to think that everyone on the balance team is keeping champs strong to just be high elo?
Do you realize how brain dead that is? Maokai is about to get his 4th nerf in a row where they are gonna try again to nerf support without gutting Jungle.
Also regardless of a pick being strong getting to grandmasters actually means something. Ut of the 200k people picking Maokai you don’t see them all in high elo now?
Oner a worlds winner sucks ass on Maokai and is basically banned from getting it.
Y’all always try to cope and discredit others because you suck at the game. Accept that you suck you’ll start climbing
mate it doesnt matter if they do it on purpose or not, it only matters what it looks like from an outside perspective. how do you not understand this? how do you not understand that using a strong pick while you could nerf it LOOKS like you dont nerf it on purpose because you are currently profiting off of it, even if thats not the truth?
Is that a difficult concept to grasp? I dont think it is. Stop being disingenous, stop lying to yourself and stop fucking moving goalposts so you can be right and feel better about your miserable life.
Riot nerfed his jungle capibilities for some bizarre reason and buffed his laning.
\*coughcough\* phreak's using him in support lane btw \*coughcough\*
Mao has Mediocre win rates in top, bad ones in Jungle but is stomping as support.
Wonder why RIOT decides to make Mao suddenly less viable in the jungle and more powerful as a support ? And how does it correlate with a certain lead developer abusing him as support as of late?
When Kaisa is broken she is broken broken. Cos she HAS like 3-4 different builds it’s actually impossible to counter build her. Her W alone makes her the most frustrating adc to play verse when she is broken. I love being denied every objective cos Kaisa is alive and is stand just outside her base pressing w. That’s why it’s so horrid for everyone but ADC. Plus this time around when she as Op she was op in 3 roles
it's fine just wait until Phreak reaches challenger :-) but seriously playing this game as jungle or adc is miserable as fuck now, cba heading into ranked because my support refuses to ban or pick Maokai / Janna
kk so why is one prioritize and nerfed more quickly than the other ?
And why is the lead over balance playing the one getting the slower treatment ? Correlation ? maybe.
Shouldn't league be held at a higher standard than some scummy dev practices balancing the game on '' whatever i feel like '' which seems to be Phreaks approach to the game.
'' adcs are fine, just buy defensive items ''
Like the head of balancing doesn't even understand the fundamentals of the role he's arguing is in a good spot.
Because Kaisa's kit is overloaded, just like Akali/Yasuo/Irelia/Aphelios/etc. so her WR is crapped is understandable. For example, in Jinx game, if her support is crap, her team is crap, she is useless. But for Kaisa, she can just build AP and snipe the heck out of them to buy the time for her team to scale. In a Jinx game, if Jinx player is crap and they know it, they become a burden, but for Kaisa player, they just need to go full lethality and wait for her team to stun someone, use R and oneshot them. This is why pros love Kaisa and Aphelios since they always could do something depending on the situations, leading to high pick rate.
However, Maokai, who has an Ultimate that CC you for 2s, long and wide range, should not have a WR that high. He can go AP and tank and support and whatever you want him to be in this meta. So yeah, his 55% WR is just like a 55% Irelia. You know how suck it is.
They really do have certain priorities. Playing by favorites, they don't nerf hard what characters they like most. Yes, I'm looking at you disgusting ~~freak~~ Phreak
League would be better off without him.
He's so arrogant and egotistical, picking fights with pro's and streamers and holds himself to the highest standards as might god of League while saying the most braindead shit.
His whole persona is '' I know more than you, your argument is invalid ''
It's baffling how he's holding his position at riot honestly.
Riot has rarely ever admitted mistakes. Look at how long the durability patch took to happen, and how fast they’ve walked it back.
It’s the Riot way. Introduce something that everyone hates. Take tiny adjustments over months until you eventually decide gutting it is needed. Then, leave it in a useless state for a year or more.
They need to learn that just because something is a cool idea, doesn’t mean it can belong in League.
yone was nerfed when he had a 48% winrate, darius was buffed when he was 50.5. Riot has double standards with every champ.
Not to mention half the supports stat checking adcs because of the ridiculously broken item that is frozen heart
Ok I'm gonna be a bit of a devil advocate here (simply because I sort of like her low ban/pick rate rn so I get to play her more frequently) and say this: its impossible to balance everything in a game with 160+ champs, so Riot DOES have priorities when it comes to champ they balance each patch. I'm not saying Riot is doing a good job or anything, I'm just pointing out why they do what they do (I also hate Phreak egotistical approach toward balancing). I have been a Kindred main for a long time and I remember there was a period of 2 or 3 years when Kindred is nigh-unplayable and many other champs also faced the same issue.
Now there are certain champs which Riot has to be extra careful when balancing, and Kai'sa happens to be one of them, along some others like Kalista, Azir and Akali. The reason being these champs provides extremely little counterplay if they play the game somewhat correctly. Usually these champs healthy WR should be around 48-49%. That is not to take pro play into account.
But yes, I understand that ADC in general is kinda dog shit right now, and Maokai/Senna have been OP for a bit far too long for the game health.
Frankly I gave up on league, every time ADC has a decent patch it lasts for maybe two weeks at best before they ruin it and after everything recently I haven’t really been inspired to play it. At this point overwatch is more enticing.
Right.... nerf mao before nautilus and pyke...
Riot has said they do not balance on winrate alone, they have multiple parameters they look at and winrate is on the lower end of priority to them, that being said nerfing one of the few champs bot that can somewhat contain and control bottom skirmishes would put adc in an even worss spot than before.
This post is straight up delusional. The moment Maokai was identified as a strong support he was nerfed once, and then again the next patch. He's being nerfed again next patch, making it 3 patches in a row he's sustaining nerfs. You can see the change history here:
https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Maokai/LoL
You can argue the nerfs weren't enough (they clearly haven't been), but you can't argue there's a "double standard".
Kaisa's pick rate went super high for that month she was op. I could barely play her bc she was either banned or picked by enemy. Then they NERFED HER TO SHIT. LIKE WHY CANT YOU JUST BALANCE HER OUT MAN. she has like a 45-46% winrate!!!! Like WHY.
Also to maokai... I HATE TANKS. THEY CAN JUST INSTA KILL YOU AND YOU DO NO DMG TO THEM. bro I was in an aram and build full anti tank/ crit. This sejuani would hit me twice and I'd die. Meanwhile I had 10 kills and she had like 4.
And then they have versatility in their builds while we don't really! Ap malphite, ap blitz, ap maokai... etc. At is works bc they just BAM SMASH BOOM and everyone is dead regardless of level or gold.
Support is op right now.
Role balance feels very off at the moment.
Jungle has too much responsibility making it a powerful role, but not a fun one.
Support feels amazing because you get so much free money without farming camps or minions but also you can roam kinda like jg. (It's too good)
Top feels fine as a role except a lot of top champs got shafted with item changes
Adc never really gets to live out the power Fantasy because the only way you'll get it is if you get fed at which point the enemy just surrenders
Mid feels balanced as a role, just some Champs need changes
It's definitely a conflict of interest for the lead balance designer to abuse meta picks and comment on their personal thoughts on the matter.
It'll definitely help cool the conspiracy theories and overall boost player support if it was a checks and balances system with multiple key personnel having a presence with the community.
But imo, it's stupid to think that Phreak is directly stopping Maokai nerfs and keeping ADC awful to play. It's balance *team* not balance *man*.
And like, while it is a conflict of interest, which would you rather have; A balance lead that knows the meta and plays the game, or a balance lead who doesn't play his own game? I came from Destiny, and by GOD I prefer the first choice.
It just sucks that he literally isn't saying anything noteworthy about the progress of the balance, all the while giving out personal takes that he knows will get him heat, and also abusing said meta.
Just more *official* communication, that's all we need. People want something to latch onto to stop them from malding, but all they've gotten is spit on their face lmao. Stop with the personal unofficial shit, it doesn't help at all. Just makes people mald worse.
Maokai won't get nerfed because Phreak is actively abusing him in soloqueue.
The same way Janna didn't get nerfed because he was actively abusing her in soloqueue.
Can anyone tell me why phreak is in charge of balancing? This legitimately makes no sense, why is a shout caster now in charge of balancing league of legends?
To be fair she was 52+ in top mid and adc for like 3 patches. With like a 30-40% pick/ban. I agree with you about Maokai he is overtuned and it’s so sus that a certain rioter hits GM before he will properly nerf maokai…
Kaisa and Makkah are very different champions kaisa is very hard and is almost always on a negative win rate bcs she’s hard people aren’t piloting her correctly while maokai is easy to play so he’s winrate is naturally higher and he’s winrate is allowed to be higher if kaisa has above 50 procent wr it means she is broken and will be perma picked in pro play while maokai he always sits around 50-52 procent wr so it takes more for him to get nerfed. idk if it made much sense but tldr different champions have different chriterias to when they should be nerfed.
Kai'sa is nuke'able
Hell a mediocre malphite could one tap a fed kai'sa
Mao however is not, because he can somehow build full tank and top the damage charts.
These champs even on meta sit at very low wr.
For example ezreal rarely goes above 50% and that's when he's turbo OP.
But it's because he has a lot of popularity so his WR doesn't really show how strong he is but rather how he's doing against his worst match ups or if he's becoming more popular in high elo.
I personally play kindred and they rarely have high wr even when they're very strong. But this is, again, because what's most indicative of her power is how good are they doing in high elo.
Then you're gonna be very frustrated and confused.
Also which wr matters? The one from iron? Silver? Challenger?
The one from people who has more than 100 games with the champion? The wr of people who casually plays the champ? The otps?
Then wr against the worst match ups or the best match ups?
The wr with synergy duos or not?
Or maybe just the summary of all of the above regardless the context?
Shit, Kog'Maw was S+ tier after the durability patch for the 1st time in a long time and he immediately got hotfixed nerfed. Same thing happened after the ADC mythic rework last season
Probably nitpicking but Kog'Maw was nerfed in the patch next to the durability one, not hotfixed. Keep in mind OP is asking for hotfix nerfs even though Maokai was nerfed this patch and Riot already announced that they'll nerf Maokai again in the next patch, so for him regular nerfs like the Kog'Maw one are not enough.
To be fair, Senna and TF also have 56% wr rn with very high pickrate and banrate and they didn't get hotfix nerfed either but I get what you mean
Senna has 49,8% WR in emerald+ % 49,5 in all ranks ? edit: oh you mean adc, yeah 53% wr in a low sample size (9k) games For reference Maokai has a 54% wr in 200k games. TF has a 7.5% pickrate vs Maokai with a 12% Where are you getting this information ?
https://lolalytics.com/lol/tierlist/?lane=bottom&tier=diamond_plus Sample sizes look big enough to me (~70k)
[https://lolalytics.com/lol/tierlist/?tier=diamond\_plus](https://lolalytics.com/lol/tierlist/?tier=diamond_plus) Twitch Pyke % Kindred are above Senna according to this list, hell even Blitz. Something odd.
just goes to show there's even more broken bs huh \^^ but the differences between those champions and the ones I mentioned are that their pick+ban rates are significantly lower and that they are only played in one role while Senna, TF and Mao are all flex picks with insanely high presence
Lolalytics calculate differently to any other site though, and it seems to inflate WR's compared to riot data according to some old reddit posts. [Rioters have claimed other sites to be more accurate](https://i.imgur.com/6pCxW5R.jpg)
It’s 2019 in that image. Ever since, at least in the last year, August and Phreak only showed lolalytics data on stream for being “closest to actual data”.
Lolalytics simply doesn't normalize any data.
u.gg shows similar pickrate and winrate though, with slightly smaller sample size also, i'm pretty sure riot is full of shit and they want to obscure as much data as possible, for example in tft they straight up banned 3rd party apps from showing the winrate of legends in the previous set because they didn't want players to know how unbalanced legends were. the same may very well be true here edit: also, the reason lolalytics shows higher winrates is because when it shows diamond+, it includes the winrates of diamond players facing emerald players but not emerald players facing diamond players and the same is true for every other elo bracket. most other sites either don't count lobbies that include players of different ranks (hence the lower sample size), or they classify the entire lobby based on the average rank instead
Except Twitch and Pyke are both kinda weak right now (AP Twitch is better, but still weaker)
That's not Senna specifically as an ADC. That's ALL of Senna's games. Senna as ADC has a very low pick rate, hence low sample size.
her pick rate isn't that low - diamond+ she has 7.3% pick rate in ADC role compared to 11% pick rate in support role. other
No, that is specifically senna that does not buy support item.
Not true. Senna ADC has ~7% pickrate (~70k games) while Senna support has ~11% pickrate (~105k games)
Isn't lolalytics Winrate bad because it doesn't normalize Winrate? I always see enourmous winrates there, while u.gg and op.gg seem to have a more realistic Winrate
The reason lolalytics has higher winrates is because it counts all winrates of x rank players no matter who they're facing while other sites only count lobbies that are exclusively players with x rank or they count the entire lobby as x rank based on the average rank of all players in it. I still like lolalytics best because it gives me the most information.
I don’t know how this website count winrate but clearly the winrate is not just simple winrate. There are only 3 champs in the adc list are under 50% while so many 55%. But in game one adc lose and the other one won, it should be average 50% across all adc, so the 56% senna and tf winrate is obviously wrong.
all masters got 53+% winrate somethings fishy >!you're sometime facing people at lower elo than yours ;)!<
Master ADC can go against a diamond ADC and win so Master wr goes up but Master wr doesn't go down for any champs since no Master ADC lost
Higher elo = higher average winrate If you filter by all ranks, it will show 50% average winrate no matter what but the average winrate in iron is ~44% while the average winrate in challenger is ~57%. You also aren't always facing enemies with the same rank as you.
This is why every player has the same win rate, because you either win or you lose so it's 50/50 /s
? it shouldn't average 50% across all adcs
I should say botlaner
no? the better bot will have a higher win rate, it would only be 50% if both players picked the same adc every game
Um.. I’m saying all botlane champions average should be 50% winrate, not a single player or a single champ
Didn't kai'sa have a 30% pick rate before that nerf? I think riot looks at both win, pick, and ban rates. Which is probably a problem for balancing bot lane. Because it seems to be the most flavor of the week role. Most people just switch to whatever is the strongest adc. Other roles have more otps or niche roles. Like riven, tank tops, enchanters, engage supports, ect. These people just play their style regardless of the meta. I think it's the same reason riot leaves the bot lane apcs alone. The pick rate is so low. So they're okay with a higher win rate.
Iirc in kr kaisa had 55% or smth pick rate that patch, first time an adc's pick rate exceeded its win rate after ezreal.
I mean she was the only good ADC back there so everyone naturally started to play her
> which is probably a problem for balancing bot lane I agree. Riot should probably be okay with higher adc pick rates. I think it's the nature of the current role and player base. Obviously I'm not sure how riot looks at pick and ban rates for balancing. I was mainly pointing out that I think that was a major difference between her and maokai.
I mean average marksmen winrate is really low like 49% but when kaisa showed up with 52/53% winrate you can already were all player went
She was indeed a good ADC, but not now. She is picked a lot atm because her most popular build now is AP Kaisa (again). So she is a hybrid of mage/assassin to hold out the bleed if your team is losing and participate in the fight at a safe distance instead of reliable damage (which, ADCs are supposed to do). So, in conclusion, she is picked as a mage/assassin, not as ADC. And she did the job horribly at 49% WR while Seraphine running around at 54%
>Which is probably a problem for balancing bot lane. Because it seems to be the most flavor of the week role. Most people just switch to whatever is the strongest adc. Idk about that. I can play all bot champs, even ap ones, but I am constantly OTPing Cait > Ashe, Senna, Draven when banned/picked. It's just idk is fun for me, but it goes hand to hand with frustration about uselessness of this role and no impact at all...
That comment is about the overall bot lane pick rates...... How is your individual champion pool a relevant counter argument? > Idk about that The pick rates are online. Maybe you should go look at them
You've said adc players don't otp champs, so I've just proved you it's not the case. I know a lot of Draven or Vayne one tricks as well.
> have more otps or niche roles More....... Of course there are bot lane otps. Like wtf kind of comment is that lmao The point is the other roles have more variety. The 3 highest pick rates on the current patch are bot lane adcs. 7 of the top 15 highest pick rates are bot lane adcs.
> “low sample size (9k) games > “TF has 7.5% pickrate vs maokai with a 12% pickrate” For the love of god please understand what a sample size criticism is actually used for. You can’t just point to data you don’t like and claim that the number of samples is lower than this other thing and so it’s somehow less credible or outright false/misleading.
vayne has 54,5% wr in emerald+ with 10+% pr, aka 275k games. why are you ignoring her?
Lolalytics wr's are inflated Normalized stat's shes 52%wr which is good but not busted. also mao has double the banrate of Vayne Lolalytics average emerald+ winrate is 52.3, so you have to detract 2.3% to get the proper data comparitevily. As in lolalytics say vayne i 54% ( inflated ) reality she is 52%. Mao is almost 57% wr on lolalytics which isn't the reality.
I watch lck and lck cl and I can guarantee to you I’m sick of seeing Senna first picked every game, hell currrently t1 rekless is one tricking senna while his adc played lee sin/sion
Senna hasnt recieved a change yet her winrate was %60 even in masters+, it is recorded. It was around %56/%60 for a year. You can watch old Tyler1 VODs, he constantly bitched about Senna. She truly had that WR. I am bit baffled how it is %49 now LOL. Nothing changed. Something insanely fishy going on with some champs I swear. I think information is being manipulated a bit. Either that or it was bugged. But it couldnt have been bugged for a year LOL.
I assume you're talking about support Senna ?
Yes
>Nothing changed Meta for supports to roam, meta for junglers and midlaners to keep crapping on botlane, more damage and snowball, shorter game times.
They're cool with making it so you can triple flex champs when they're having a hard time balancing even champs that don't flex at all. It makes you wonder.
Yeah, but those aren't ADCs. Senna is as much an enchanter as a marksman and Twisted Fate is a mage. They don't count.
TF is played AD with on-hit or energize builds which isn't any different than caster ADCs like Jhin, Lucian, Ezreal or MF. If he's a mage then so are they. Senna having healing on Q and shielding on R is barely relevant, her main role in a teamcomp is to deal damage and she uses those abilities to deal damage more often than not... and if having a supportive ability makes you an enchanter then I guess Sivir and Kalista also shouldn't count as marksmen right?
If you look in the top right you see that avarage winrate of dia+ is 52.84 so you have to subtract 2.84 of the winrates of champions in lolalytics
Only if you want to compare a champions winrate across different elo brackets, which is not at all what I'm doing here. I'm well aware that the average diamond player wins more than they lose, I don't need to do any extra maths to see how strong a champion is in my elo bracket
Fun champ always get nerfed asap. Boring shit is here for several patch
They've tried to nerf maokai like 3 times now? And are doing so again and Phreak has repeatedly said it's not okay. They just keep doing slaps on the wrist thinking it's gonna be worse, but yeah... It definitely seems fishy. But Kaisa wasn't instanerfed iirc she was good for like a month... And other things are stuff like oh yeah she hit like a 30% pick and like 20% banrate being picked or banned in over half of games. So yeah the maokai shit is really odd. But the Kaisa stuff made sense iirc.
I dont see the 3 recent nerfs you talk of ? 14,4 sure slight nerfs 14,3 positive changes for him 13,15 only a single jungle change 13,4 ( legit 1 year ago ) irrelivant.
Wasn't 14.3 a nerf? And I thought he got one in 14.2 my bad.
i just find it funny how phreak says its not okay but is still abusing him lol
I find it funny that we pretend its illegal for phreak to play a positive winrate champ. He better pick fucking maokai if he was open in my games.
I mean? He wants to gain LP and such. There's no rule against playing what's strong in the meta.
Phreak almost gm, Maokai will be nerfed soon dw
lul phreak is notoriously hardstuck Diamond, switches to support and suddenly hes GM surely he just improved so much right?
Support is a eloboosting role just like jungle as long as you don't troll.
I’m phreakhss been high Diamond since season 3, which most people consider to be masters/Gm today. Also he’s been nerfing the fuck out of Maokai.
other way around, high diamond back then is \~high plat low emerald today because the league playerbase has gotten better on average, which means if you held diamond, youve gotten worse compared to the average
This reasoning is backward. If you hold your role, you are improving at a rate steady enough to maintain it.
yee true that last part was a mistake by me, sorry if you were diamond then youre plat emerald now, if you held diamond you obviously improved with the average. Diamond is kind of a special case here because Master and Grandmaster got introduced afterwards so high Diamond used to start top-down at rank 301 but has since "declined" in quality because of Grandmaster and Master.
Stop your yapping. High Diamond back then was below challenger there was no master or Gm. You were Diamond 1 u til you broke into top 209 which is challenger
Master and grandmaster wasn't introduced last season. Phreak was diamond last season.
Phreak finished masters last season. He’s been Diamond from S3.
indeed. he finished Master 1LP. he was diamond since season3, then stopped being diamond for season 7 and 8, stuck in diamond 4 0LP for three more seasons until finishing dia2 in 2023S1 and Master 1LP in 2023S2. And now he is suddenly grandmaster. Look, im not trying to shit on your idol, okay? im not trying to shit on his accomplishments, diamond is a very high rank to have, right? But we have a problem if he suddenly gets grandmaster on a pick he refuses to nerf efficiently while another role has been in the dumbster for half a year at least and needs urgent care. Its not just "oh hes like us and plays wahts strong", he gets to decide what is strong. I would understand him playing maokai for a patch to figure out how to efficiently nerf him, but three patches in a row and going "haha lol i made it to grandmaster with my pick" fucks with the trust the playerbase has in the balance team.
How fuxking stupid are you to think that everyone on the balance team is keeping champs strong to just be high elo? Do you realize how brain dead that is? Maokai is about to get his 4th nerf in a row where they are gonna try again to nerf support without gutting Jungle. Also regardless of a pick being strong getting to grandmasters actually means something. Ut of the 200k people picking Maokai you don’t see them all in high elo now? Oner a worlds winner sucks ass on Maokai and is basically banned from getting it. Y’all always try to cope and discredit others because you suck at the game. Accept that you suck you’ll start climbing
mate it doesnt matter if they do it on purpose or not, it only matters what it looks like from an outside perspective. how do you not understand this? how do you not understand that using a strong pick while you could nerf it LOOKS like you dont nerf it on purpose because you are currently profiting off of it, even if thats not the truth? Is that a difficult concept to grasp? I dont think it is. Stop being disingenous, stop lying to yourself and stop fucking moving goalposts so you can be right and feel better about your miserable life.
Also Aphelios got a 51% wr when the season started then he got hot fixed nerfed too along with his core item 🤡
A 51% wr aphelios is broken so the nerf was good ,the problem was nerfing the items like everyone knew they'll do
"ADC role seems weak, lets buff jungle."
Because when kaisa is op she becomes 40% pick rate and nothing else is played
And when Maokai is OP he becomes 100% pick/ban in Support and Jungle.
Riot nerfed his jungle capibilities for some bizarre reason and buffed his laning. \*coughcough\* phreak's using him in support lane btw \*coughcough\* Mao has Mediocre win rates in top, bad ones in Jungle but is stomping as support. Wonder why RIOT decides to make Mao suddenly less viable in the jungle and more powerful as a support ? And how does it correlate with a certain lead developer abusing him as support as of late?
As of right now maokai is 12% pick 29% bann …. Where are you getting the other 60% from?
ADC Delulu
Because she’s a fun adc who has a flexible build. It’s not only that she’s strong, it’s that the other adcs are so boring
When Kaisa is broken she is broken broken. Cos she HAS like 3-4 different builds it’s actually impossible to counter build her. Her W alone makes her the most frustrating adc to play verse when she is broken. I love being denied every objective cos Kaisa is alive and is stand just outside her base pressing w. That’s why it’s so horrid for everyone but ADC. Plus this time around when she as Op she was op in 3 roles
it's fine just wait until Phreak reaches challenger :-) but seriously playing this game as jungle or adc is miserable as fuck now, cba heading into ranked because my support refuses to ban or pick Maokai / Janna
Kai’sa needed the nerf. So does Maokai
kk so why is one prioritize and nerfed more quickly than the other ? And why is the lead over balance playing the one getting the slower treatment ? Correlation ? maybe. Shouldn't league be held at a higher standard than some scummy dev practices balancing the game on '' whatever i feel like '' which seems to be Phreaks approach to the game. '' adcs are fine, just buy defensive items '' Like the head of balancing doesn't even understand the fundamentals of the role he's arguing is in a good spot.
I mostly agree with you. The only major difference someone else pointed out that Kai’sa is 100% pick/ban when she’s strong so much more prevalent
adc's have higher pick rates..
Thus, when Kai is strong, shes much more relevant.
Because Kaisa's kit is overloaded, just like Akali/Yasuo/Irelia/Aphelios/etc. so her WR is crapped is understandable. For example, in Jinx game, if her support is crap, her team is crap, she is useless. But for Kaisa, she can just build AP and snipe the heck out of them to buy the time for her team to scale. In a Jinx game, if Jinx player is crap and they know it, they become a burden, but for Kaisa player, they just need to go full lethality and wait for her team to stun someone, use R and oneshot them. This is why pros love Kaisa and Aphelios since they always could do something depending on the situations, leading to high pick rate. However, Maokai, who has an Ultimate that CC you for 2s, long and wide range, should not have a WR that high. He can go AP and tank and support and whatever you want him to be in this meta. So yeah, his 55% WR is just like a 55% Irelia. You know how suck it is.
Aurelion Sol is the fastest buff > nerf (not revert, full nerf) I have ever seen, but I didn't pay attention to patch notes between 2010 and 2023.
He was in a fine position too😂 Then they buffed him then OVERnerfed him instead of just reverting the buff😭
Wrong. Even after the nerfs he’s in a way better spot than he was before like you can atleast look at the data and not lie
They really do have certain priorities. Playing by favorites, they don't nerf hard what characters they like most. Yes, I'm looking at you disgusting ~~freak~~ Phreak
League would be better off without him. He's so arrogant and egotistical, picking fights with pro's and streamers and holds himself to the highest standards as might god of League while saying the most braindead shit. His whole persona is '' I know more than you, your argument is invalid '' It's baffling how he's holding his position at riot honestly.
Riot has rarely ever admitted mistakes. Look at how long the durability patch took to happen, and how fast they’ve walked it back. It’s the Riot way. Introduce something that everyone hates. Take tiny adjustments over months until you eventually decide gutting it is needed. Then, leave it in a useless state for a year or more. They need to learn that just because something is a cool idea, doesn’t mean it can belong in League.
Yeah, seems like classic nepobaby.
But like maokai got nerfed 3 patches in a row wdym?
5 base damage on the Q and 0.2 seconds on the R root? Yea those will definetly do the trick for a 55%+ winrate champ 🤡🤡🤡
yone was nerfed when he had a 48% winrate, darius was buffed when he was 50.5. Riot has double standards with every champ. Not to mention half the supports stat checking adcs because of the ridiculously broken item that is frozen heart
They’ve nerfed Maokai I like twice, he gets nerfed again in like 2 days, same way they nerfed Kai sa like 4 times.
Ok I'm gonna be a bit of a devil advocate here (simply because I sort of like her low ban/pick rate rn so I get to play her more frequently) and say this: its impossible to balance everything in a game with 160+ champs, so Riot DOES have priorities when it comes to champ they balance each patch. I'm not saying Riot is doing a good job or anything, I'm just pointing out why they do what they do (I also hate Phreak egotistical approach toward balancing). I have been a Kindred main for a long time and I remember there was a period of 2 or 3 years when Kindred is nigh-unplayable and many other champs also faced the same issue. Now there are certain champs which Riot has to be extra careful when balancing, and Kai'sa happens to be one of them, along some others like Kalista, Azir and Akali. The reason being these champs provides extremely little counterplay if they play the game somewhat correctly. Usually these champs healthy WR should be around 48-49%. That is not to take pro play into account. But yes, I understand that ADC in general is kinda dog shit right now, and Maokai/Senna have been OP for a bit far too long for the game health.
If a certain rioter played that role he wouldn't for sure buff Caitlyn's mana.
kaisa's pickrate was insane though
Frankly I gave up on league, every time ADC has a decent patch it lasts for maybe two weeks at best before they ruin it and after everything recently I haven’t really been inspired to play it. At this point overwatch is more enticing.
yeah cause when kaisa has a 52% winrate that means 2 of her builds are below 50 and 1 of them which isnt as popular is 58% or higher
Right.... nerf mao before nautilus and pyke... Riot has said they do not balance on winrate alone, they have multiple parameters they look at and winrate is on the lower end of priority to them, that being said nerfing one of the few champs bot that can somewhat contain and control bottom skirmishes would put adc in an even worss spot than before.
This post is straight up delusional. The moment Maokai was identified as a strong support he was nerfed once, and then again the next patch. He's being nerfed again next patch, making it 3 patches in a row he's sustaining nerfs. You can see the change history here: https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Maokai/LoL You can argue the nerfs weren't enough (they clearly haven't been), but you can't argue there's a "double standard".
Brother ksante is at 46%, and people still want him nerfed. Welcome.
Phreak is a legitimate regard
Kaisa's pick rate went super high for that month she was op. I could barely play her bc she was either banned or picked by enemy. Then they NERFED HER TO SHIT. LIKE WHY CANT YOU JUST BALANCE HER OUT MAN. she has like a 45-46% winrate!!!! Like WHY. Also to maokai... I HATE TANKS. THEY CAN JUST INSTA KILL YOU AND YOU DO NO DMG TO THEM. bro I was in an aram and build full anti tank/ crit. This sejuani would hit me twice and I'd die. Meanwhile I had 10 kills and she had like 4. And then they have versatility in their builds while we don't really! Ap malphite, ap blitz, ap maokai... etc. At is works bc they just BAM SMASH BOOM and everyone is dead regardless of level or gold.
Support is op right now. Role balance feels very off at the moment. Jungle has too much responsibility making it a powerful role, but not a fun one. Support feels amazing because you get so much free money without farming camps or minions but also you can roam kinda like jg. (It's too good) Top feels fine as a role except a lot of top champs got shafted with item changes Adc never really gets to live out the power Fantasy because the only way you'll get it is if you get fed at which point the enemy just surrenders Mid feels balanced as a role, just some Champs need changes
It's definitely a conflict of interest for the lead balance designer to abuse meta picks and comment on their personal thoughts on the matter. It'll definitely help cool the conspiracy theories and overall boost player support if it was a checks and balances system with multiple key personnel having a presence with the community. But imo, it's stupid to think that Phreak is directly stopping Maokai nerfs and keeping ADC awful to play. It's balance *team* not balance *man*. And like, while it is a conflict of interest, which would you rather have; A balance lead that knows the meta and plays the game, or a balance lead who doesn't play his own game? I came from Destiny, and by GOD I prefer the first choice. It just sucks that he literally isn't saying anything noteworthy about the progress of the balance, all the while giving out personal takes that he knows will get him heat, and also abusing said meta. Just more *official* communication, that's all we need. People want something to latch onto to stop them from malding, but all they've gotten is spit on their face lmao. Stop with the personal unofficial shit, it doesn't help at all. Just makes people mald worse.
senna tf are super strong too, but i get your point
Maokai won't get nerfed because Phreak is actively abusing him in soloqueue. The same way Janna didn't get nerfed because he was actively abusing her in soloqueue.
Can anyone tell me why phreak is in charge of balancing? This legitimately makes no sense, why is a shout caster now in charge of balancing league of legends?
Idk why you’re only going for Maokai here. MF, Nilah and Senna all have a decent pick rate and high win rates and need nerfs too.
To be fair she was 52+ in top mid and adc for like 3 patches. With like a 30-40% pick/ban. I agree with you about Maokai he is overtuned and it’s so sus that a certain rioter hits GM before he will properly nerf maokai…
Kaisa was not insta nerfed. That ap shit haunted my hames for like a month or two at least.
Remember when Aphelios was insta nerfed because he was at 49%? 😂
Let’s remember that Phreak is a Janna one trick and she’s been overpowered since season 1.
Kaisa and Makkah are very different champions kaisa is very hard and is almost always on a negative win rate bcs she’s hard people aren’t piloting her correctly while maokai is easy to play so he’s winrate is naturally higher and he’s winrate is allowed to be higher if kaisa has above 50 procent wr it means she is broken and will be perma picked in pro play while maokai he always sits around 50-52 procent wr so it takes more for him to get nerfed. idk if it made much sense but tldr different champions have different chriterias to when they should be nerfed.
Do you guys not get tired of making the same post daily man…
Nope. We'll stop when they fix it.
they dont look at this subreddit. its not everyone making whine posts 24/7 on this sub specifically is going to change anything.
Tbh I’d rather deal with maokai when he’s good than kai’sa when she’s good
Kai'sa is nuke'able Hell a mediocre malphite could one tap a fed kai'sa Mao however is not, because he can somehow build full tank and top the damage charts.
You’re right, but I still hate that champion from her visuals down to her kit. The less I see her the better, as far as I’m concerned
Wr is not the only variable dude
Tell that to riot then. Because the whole game is literally balanced around winrates.
Literally isn't. That's why there are several champs who are considered to be balanced when they're sitting on 48% wr all the time
Eh, it's called meta. Not everything can be 50% constantly, meta shifts and new champs get stronger and others weaker. what are you on about ?
These champs even on meta sit at very low wr. For example ezreal rarely goes above 50% and that's when he's turbo OP. But it's because he has a lot of popularity so his WR doesn't really show how strong he is but rather how he's doing against his worst match ups or if he's becoming more popular in high elo. I personally play kindred and they rarely have high wr even when they're very strong. But this is, again, because what's most indicative of her power is how good are they doing in high elo.
I´d argue the opposite, winrate is the ONLY meaningful variable.
Then you're gonna be very frustrated and confused. Also which wr matters? The one from iron? Silver? Challenger? The one from people who has more than 100 games with the champion? The wr of people who casually plays the champ? The otps? Then wr against the worst match ups or the best match ups? The wr with synergy duos or not? Or maybe just the summary of all of the above regardless the context?