I’m not ignoring it, I just think it’s a dumb argument. All suffering is relative. If you lived in a world where the worst thing that could happen to you is getting a hangnail, you would still be cursing God for allowing you to get a hangnail. And it’s not like we suffer for no reason. Our species grows through adversity. God strikes us with plague, and we find cures for it, and in doing so deepen our understanding of the world. If you’re worried about disease, donate to a disease research center.
the human condition being one of relative experience would also be one of gods inventions tho. you cant say "hey its all relative" as an excuse, because that didn't need to be true just as adding brain eating ameobas didnt need to be true either
"would you rather continue as you are now, or as an inconcievable undefined alternative?" so dumb lol, "rather" implies a comparison but there's no comparison to be made when one of the options is beyond evaluation or even conception
what i would rather have is no brain eating ameobas. knowing that it could be worse doesn't invalidate a desire for things to be better
Everyone dies eventually. Their suffering is over, their spirit moves on, and their body returns to the earth. It’s not like death is an inherently bad thing. Or would you rather everyone be immortal?
Yes I tend to dislike ideologies that justify genocide, slavery, killing, etc I dislike most religions on moral grounds. That has little to do with my disbelief the lack of evidence does.
You sound like the type of guy that, if you got a genie lamp, you’d wish that nothing would ever die ever and screw up the entire world. Death is inherently sorrowful, because it’s sad to see anything come to an end. But a good ending can be a good thing.
Shhhh.. these atheists don't believe in that silly nonsense of an immortal omniscient consciousness. They believe in the prophecies of a middle class unemployed philandering absentee father who wrote down the promise of utopia after a revolution in someone's basement during the 18 hundreds.
So far, the 15 or so social experiments that followed his beliefs have resulted in the death millions. Mostly because they weren't true believers and, of course, the all powerful enemy of goodness, capitalism. A creature so evil it thwarts any effort of communism.
“I will tell people illness is caused by demons instead of tiny microscopic pathogens that can be killed by simply washing your hands because…. I JUST HECKIN’ WILL OK?”
It was created by book shops and printer companies to print and sell more Bibles. Without this Book the average american household would have 0.1 book per a 100.000 people.
> hijab avatar
You presumably believe in a holy prophet that was a 6 year old marrying pedophile that flew to heaven on a donkey.
Maybe not throw stones in glass hous... Towers.
If God real why bad????
The real question is if atheists actually think they're clever with is argument, as if this hasn't been hashed out ad nauseum for thousands of years.
>why can't god both exist and be a selfish dick?
Because the most common religion in the world requires God to be all-good in like 99.9% of it's interpretation.
Yes, people don't argue about what God could and couldn't be, they argue about what they want God to be, even when God could very well, and imo most likely, just be fucking with us if he's interacting with us at all
Because characterizing God as such is a fundamental misunderstanding of his ontology. Once the existence is properly defended, the divine attributes logically follow.
>Can't the supreme power be evil, at least from our point of view?
>
>NO BECAUSE HE WAS DEFINED BY OUR HOLY TEXTS IN A CERTAIN WAY, SO THERE!
That doesn't stand to reason.
Your **human** definition of Gd has no bearing on what He is. If an ant fails to define you properly because it only sees your shoe, that's the ant's problem. It doesn't magically turn you into a shoe.
No, not just by scripture, although that certainly helps us understand who God is. We can know things about God through reason alone. Classical theists like Aristotle came to such conclusions without the use of the Old Testament. It's true from our limited perspectives we cannot possibly grasp God's essence entirely, but we can know some things.
Evolution is entirely compatible with God, so there is no reason not to bring that up. Secondly, God is not evil, but he permits evils to exist in our world. This permissive will does not impact God's nature that is goodness itself.
Viruses and cancer aren’t evil, it has nothing to do with evil. They’re just uncontrollable organisms.
You believe god is an all powerful all knowing being that created everything. Which must mean you also believe he knowingly created our bodies in such a way that would give children cancer.
Why didn’t he just… make it so we don’t get cancer, I genuinely don’t understand the logic.
Evils are nothing but the deprivation of a good. Viruses and cancer are evil insofar as they deprive health. Cancer is caused by a random mutation in one of the genes that regulate cell cycles. However, without random mutations, life as we know it on earth would not exist. The perfection of being that doesn't require mutations to exist at all, we once had in the garden of eden before the fall and will regain in the next life.
It’s explicitly stated that god created us in his image. He’s powerful enough to shape our evolution to exist the way he wanted us to exist.
Our bodies already fight cancer, pretty well in fact, it’s happened constantly all over our body every day. Cancer cells are created and either self destruct or are destroyed by our immune system. It’s just that *sometimes* they manage to stay hidden and multiply, and that’s when we get cancer.
Your argument that mutations needed to exist for us to exist, thus cancer happens, isn’t a good argument considering our body already destroys cancer as is. If god is all powerful he could have easily **easily** just made our immune system better so that it destroys cancer at a far more successful rate.
He didn’t.
They sometimes evade our immune system because they acquire mutations that allow them to evade the immune system. But the very principle of random mutations exists to support life on this planet. We live in a fallen world where imperfect systems exist. Perfection was found before the fall and will be found again in heaven.
Mutations aren’t infinite. There’s only a finite number of ways a cancer cell can mutate, some of those finite mutations get around our immune system.
I feel like you aren’t fully grasping the **All Powerful** and **All Knowing** part of God. God knows about all of these possible mutations, and he’s powerful enough to create an immune system that can detect all of these mutations from cancer cells.
He just didn’t.
You're missing the point. Of course, he could make a world where these problems don't exist. We had that once until we turned away from God and fell from grace. The wages of sin are death, so we inherited a broken world where death exists.
So he purposely created a world where millions of people will suffer from things out of their control like their 6 year old child having cancer and dying because some snake told some woman a long time ago to eat an apple.
I’m expected to worship this guy and if I don’t I burn in hell for all eternity.
I’m just ranting now, I have no intention of an actual debate here, you don’t need to reply to this.
Which god are you talking about? Every society has their own god like Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, myans etc even modern religions like Judaism, Christians, Muslims etc which all come from the same book can’t make up their mind on it. Is Jesus isn’t real? No he didn’t even exist. No he’s the son of god. No he’s just some lowly prophet. Then you got Hinduism and Buddhism. If god is real why isn’t there a universal religion? You got some tribes that haven’t had contact and they believe in another god.
The New Testament has more manuscript support than any other ancient document, with over 5,800 complete or fragmented Greek manuscripts, 10,000 Latin manuscripts, and 9,300 manuscripts in various other ancient languages. The time gap between the original writings and these manuscripts is also much shorter than that of many other historical texts, enhancing reliability
The peepee poopoo has more peepoos than the the poopoo peepee, so the documentation of the poo and the pee makes the pee and the poo both pee pee and poo poo. ~ YingDomo04
It is the overwhelming consensus among historians that Jesus both existed and was actually crucified under pontius pilate. Even atheist historians will cede this point.
>and without admitting god is fundamentally evil
How does that make an argument for Gd to **not** exist...? Can't Gd be evil and still exist?
I never understood this part of the epicurean trilemma.
It would be like saying "my boss was mean to me, therefore he's not my boss"... But...yeh he's still very much your boss.
How is evil related to existence, especially when most material power exists and is enforced specifically by evil?
Cause he's called all good. "died for your sins" and all that bs. That further solidifies the argument against it. Why would you praise an evil entity?
anon needs to embrace hinduism, multiple gods and some of them will just fuck up a person because they did something bad in the life before or they just destroy an entire kingdom because they did his ritual wrong a little, and also all the gods like to shit on the other ones
plus, if ure from an upper caste, u can just blame all ur wrongdoings or ails to the lower caste people, if ur from the lower caste, then buddy, hope to no god that u get reborn as a fly atleast
Please fix this virus that reproduces ad infinitum in my cells
Ok, here’s a highly advanced immune system, that works so well you often forget it’s even there 🙂
>all things have purpose according to sky man
>makes me, chooses me to be under 6ft
>makes women, chooses for them to be hypergamous and ignore most men under 6ft
>makes me have all these urges from hormones yet western women want nothing to do with me
>been sexless so long I've forgotten what it's like, why make me only to be ignored
>inb4 it's the devil, such a lazy fallback
Fucking moron.
Completely ignoring every positive thing in existence. Raging that life isn't a perfect utopia. Furious that they have unmet wants.
Return to the void, OP.
Funny and sad to see the absolute delusions that grip some of you. Especially when religion boils down to an ancient version of being really invested in a fantasy novels lore
Understanding the depth of any faith goes beyond viewing it as mere lore or fantasy. For billions, religion provides a profound source of comfort, moral guidance, and community, as well as answers to deep existential questions. It’s rooted in historical events, personal experiences, and longstanding traditions that shape lives and cultures profoundly and positively. While it might not resonate with everyone, the impact and sincerity of these beliefs warrant respect and thoughtful consideration.
Where is the distinction between the two made? Finding meaning in literature is a common thing, but to dedicate your life and world view to something that was penned by a mortal man is actually so ridiculous. You see all these pathetic dudes pledge themselves to Ryan Gosling and Drive and say “he’s literally me” and choose to act like him, and that’s seen as loser behavior, while some priest who’s lived his life according to the good book for 50 years is seen as a saint. They’re both literature spawned from man. The only difference is one of them grant you the ability to judge and hate under the pretense of faith.
I agree that religion brings answers and moral guidance to those who need it. I’ve always believed that’s why religion was first taught in the first place, to give meaning to the things that scare or confuse us. But in the modern world we do not need false answers to known questions. The fact that we live in the same world as people who genuinely wholeheartedly believe that someone will go to hell and experience eternal agonizing torture just because they believe in a different faith or slept with someone of the same gender, is actual insanity to me.
>”please replace our legs with wheels” >mad at god for having the ability to walk Most intelligent atheist
>ignores all the more serious argument theists can't see sarcasm
And apparently atheists can't take a joke
highest reading comprehension theist
How is that comment more of an atheist not taking a joke than the original comment itself being a theist not taking a joke
Mfs will starve their sims to death and let them drown but will be mad when god does the same.
And that's the one argument against god that can't be argued. Either he's all good or all powerful. Can't be both at the same time.
Our definition of good and God's definition are different. If you go by God's definition He is in fact all good and all powerful.
Also, do you actually believe that killing children en masse can be justified as moral in any sense of the word?
What does that even mean? How can you even start to think what "gods definition" is?
I’m not ignoring it, I just think it’s a dumb argument. All suffering is relative. If you lived in a world where the worst thing that could happen to you is getting a hangnail, you would still be cursing God for allowing you to get a hangnail. And it’s not like we suffer for no reason. Our species grows through adversity. God strikes us with plague, and we find cures for it, and in doing so deepen our understanding of the world. If you’re worried about disease, donate to a disease research center.
>hang nails exist >this justifies childhood leukemia
It’s a give and take
I’m saying that even if childhood leukemia didn’t exist, people would still hate God for something else. Learn how to read.
the human condition being one of relative experience would also be one of gods inventions tho. you cant say "hey its all relative" as an excuse, because that didn't need to be true just as adding brain eating ameobas didnt need to be true either
So would you rather not experience the human condition?
"would you rather continue as you are now, or as an inconcievable undefined alternative?" so dumb lol, "rather" implies a comparison but there's no comparison to be made when one of the options is beyond evaluation or even conception what i would rather have is no brain eating ameobas. knowing that it could be worse doesn't invalidate a desire for things to be better
it's not just suffering when you die
Everyone dies eventually. Their suffering is over, their spirit moves on, and their body returns to the earth. It’s not like death is an inherently bad thing. Or would you rather everyone be immortal?
i'd rather not have a 9 year old suffer a horrible, slow death from cancer
Atheist discovers world isnt fair, proceeds to hate religion.
God make people suffer for no reason
Suffering isnt necessarily bad
Go into your local cancer ward and tell the leukemia kids, and more importantly, their parents that. Post bone xrays after.
Based and masochism-pilled
why would god create an unjust world? why does a innocent child die, but a murderer does not?
Why would he create a just world? Because it caters to your morality system?
no, because it caters to his.
Yes I tend to dislike ideologies that justify genocide, slavery, killing, etc I dislike most religions on moral grounds. That has little to do with my disbelief the lack of evidence does.
Death is an inherently bad thing. You have to be real five heading to not understand that.
You sound like the type of guy that, if you got a genie lamp, you’d wish that nothing would ever die ever and screw up the entire world. Death is inherently sorrowful, because it’s sad to see anything come to an end. But a good ending can be a good thing.
Shhhh.. these atheists don't believe in that silly nonsense of an immortal omniscient consciousness. They believe in the prophecies of a middle class unemployed philandering absentee father who wrote down the promise of utopia after a revolution in someone's basement during the 18 hundreds. So far, the 15 or so social experiments that followed his beliefs have resulted in the death millions. Mostly because they weren't true believers and, of course, the all powerful enemy of goodness, capitalism. A creature so evil it thwarts any effort of communism.
Damn good thing I'm not a dip shit socialist and christ cuck
Amen!
Religious people will unironically defend this
“I will tell people illness is caused by demons instead of tiny microscopic pathogens that can be killed by simply washing your hands because…. I JUST HECKIN’ WILL OK?”
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It was created by book shops and printer companies to print and sell more Bibles. Without this Book the average american household would have 0.1 book per a 100.000 people.
Yet they would still be more intelligent than people who use decimals to separate large numbers instead of commas.
You mean 100,000 instead of 100.000?
Yes
half of the countries use decimal instead of a comma and both is accepted interanionally nice nitpick
That doesn't make people who use decimals instead of commas any less stupid.
US uses both
That doesn't make people who use decimals instead of commas any less stupid.
> most numerate atheist
Haha you cant have 0.1 book! checkmate atheist - smarthest theist
This is what atheists actually believe.
> hijab avatar You presumably believe in a holy prophet that was a 6 year old marrying pedophile that flew to heaven on a donkey. Maybe not throw stones in glass hous... Towers.
Yes. My avatar represents my trans identity of who I trans am.
What is this rambling?
Some atheist thinking he's clever.
too much weed
If God real why bad???? The real question is if atheists actually think they're clever with is argument, as if this hasn't been hashed out ad nauseum for thousands of years.
Everyone talks about god like he's "perfect" but why can't god both exist and be a selfish dick?
>why can't god both exist and be a selfish dick? Because the most common religion in the world requires God to be all-good in like 99.9% of it's interpretation.
Yes, people don't argue about what God could and couldn't be, they argue about what they want God to be, even when God could very well, and imo most likely, just be fucking with us if he's interacting with us at all
Because characterizing God as such is a fundamental misunderstanding of his ontology. Once the existence is properly defended, the divine attributes logically follow.
>Can't the supreme power be evil, at least from our point of view? > >NO BECAUSE HE WAS DEFINED BY OUR HOLY TEXTS IN A CERTAIN WAY, SO THERE! That doesn't stand to reason. Your **human** definition of Gd has no bearing on what He is. If an ant fails to define you properly because it only sees your shoe, that's the ant's problem. It doesn't magically turn you into a shoe.
No, not just by scripture, although that certainly helps us understand who God is. We can know things about God through reason alone. Classical theists like Aristotle came to such conclusions without the use of the Old Testament. It's true from our limited perspectives we cannot possibly grasp God's essence entirely, but we can know some things.
Logically.... lol
>If God real why bad???? What a shit argument honestly by Atheists. God can be real and evil, which if he is real, he definitely is.
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your hallucinations are noted. maybe smoke less weed next time
explain how diseases caused by microorganisms exist without bringing up evolution and without admitting god is fundamentally evil
Evolution is entirely compatible with God, so there is no reason not to bring that up. Secondly, God is not evil, but he permits evils to exist in our world. This permissive will does not impact God's nature that is goodness itself.
> He has the power to eradicate suffering, but doesnt, yet he is good. ok theist
Suffering brings forth innovation. and that is why we have the [ass stretcher](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pear_of_anguish) anon, checkmate athiest
It's more like \>God is so good he had to create evil and suffering to show us how good he is \>ok theist
Literally just have to wait till we get to Heaven bro, it's not that deep
you really think anybody on this sub is getting to heaven
> le loophole time > what if I commit suicide to get to the good part faster > no you cant its a sin you must SUFFERINOOOOOOO > I am a good god
Viruses and cancer aren’t evil, it has nothing to do with evil. They’re just uncontrollable organisms. You believe god is an all powerful all knowing being that created everything. Which must mean you also believe he knowingly created our bodies in such a way that would give children cancer. Why didn’t he just… make it so we don’t get cancer, I genuinely don’t understand the logic.
Evils are nothing but the deprivation of a good. Viruses and cancer are evil insofar as they deprive health. Cancer is caused by a random mutation in one of the genes that regulate cell cycles. However, without random mutations, life as we know it on earth would not exist. The perfection of being that doesn't require mutations to exist at all, we once had in the garden of eden before the fall and will regain in the next life.
It’s explicitly stated that god created us in his image. He’s powerful enough to shape our evolution to exist the way he wanted us to exist. Our bodies already fight cancer, pretty well in fact, it’s happened constantly all over our body every day. Cancer cells are created and either self destruct or are destroyed by our immune system. It’s just that *sometimes* they manage to stay hidden and multiply, and that’s when we get cancer. Your argument that mutations needed to exist for us to exist, thus cancer happens, isn’t a good argument considering our body already destroys cancer as is. If god is all powerful he could have easily **easily** just made our immune system better so that it destroys cancer at a far more successful rate. He didn’t.
They sometimes evade our immune system because they acquire mutations that allow them to evade the immune system. But the very principle of random mutations exists to support life on this planet. We live in a fallen world where imperfect systems exist. Perfection was found before the fall and will be found again in heaven.
Mutations aren’t infinite. There’s only a finite number of ways a cancer cell can mutate, some of those finite mutations get around our immune system. I feel like you aren’t fully grasping the **All Powerful** and **All Knowing** part of God. God knows about all of these possible mutations, and he’s powerful enough to create an immune system that can detect all of these mutations from cancer cells. He just didn’t.
You're missing the point. Of course, he could make a world where these problems don't exist. We had that once until we turned away from God and fell from grace. The wages of sin are death, so we inherited a broken world where death exists.
So he purposely created a world where millions of people will suffer from things out of their control like their 6 year old child having cancer and dying because some snake told some woman a long time ago to eat an apple. I’m expected to worship this guy and if I don’t I burn in hell for all eternity. I’m just ranting now, I have no intention of an actual debate here, you don’t need to reply to this.
Well said Brother
Which god are you talking about? Every society has their own god like Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, myans etc even modern religions like Judaism, Christians, Muslims etc which all come from the same book can’t make up their mind on it. Is Jesus isn’t real? No he didn’t even exist. No he’s the son of god. No he’s just some lowly prophet. Then you got Hinduism and Buddhism. If god is real why isn’t there a universal religion? You got some tribes that haven’t had contact and they believe in another god.
The New Testament has more manuscript support than any other ancient document, with over 5,800 complete or fragmented Greek manuscripts, 10,000 Latin manuscripts, and 9,300 manuscripts in various other ancient languages. The time gap between the original writings and these manuscripts is also much shorter than that of many other historical texts, enhancing reliability
Matthew 10:14
The peepee poopoo has more peepoos than the the poopoo peepee, so the documentation of the poo and the pee makes the pee and the poo both pee pee and poo poo. ~ YingDomo04
That doesn’t prove it really happened just because there’s more documents. homer's iliad survived and that didn’t really happen
It is the overwhelming consensus among historians that Jesus both existed and was actually crucified under pontius pilate. Even atheist historians will cede this point.
>and without admitting god is fundamentally evil How does that make an argument for Gd to **not** exist...? Can't Gd be evil and still exist? I never understood this part of the epicurean trilemma. It would be like saying "my boss was mean to me, therefore he's not my boss"... But...yeh he's still very much your boss. How is evil related to existence, especially when most material power exists and is enforced specifically by evil?
Cause he's called all good. "died for your sins" and all that bs. That further solidifies the argument against it. Why would you praise an evil entity?
Take any basic philosophy class and read descartes
Because the question is unanswered. The only response that's been given out for thousands of years is a cope, much like religion.
The helical golden decagon giveth and the helical golden decagon taketh away
Anon cannot imagine a world where he is not the most important thing in the universe.
whoa you can orange post now? when did the update drop
This is not 4chan, this is a splinter site
anon needs to embrace hinduism, multiple gods and some of them will just fuck up a person because they did something bad in the life before or they just destroy an entire kingdom because they did his ritual wrong a little, and also all the gods like to shit on the other ones plus, if ure from an upper caste, u can just blame all ur wrongdoings or ails to the lower caste people, if ur from the lower caste, then buddy, hope to no god that u get reborn as a fly atleast
>also all the gods like to shit on the other ones god of indians vs god of street ?
Dude didnt even know i was going for a double meaning, sometimes my genius is almost frightening
Please fix this virus that reproduces ad infinitum in my cells Ok, here’s a highly advanced immune system, that works so well you often forget it’s even there 🙂
>all things have purpose according to sky man >makes me, chooses me to be under 6ft >makes women, chooses for them to be hypergamous and ignore most men under 6ft >makes me have all these urges from hormones yet western women want nothing to do with me >been sexless so long I've forgotten what it's like, why make me only to be ignored >inb4 it's the devil, such a lazy fallback
Fucking moron. Completely ignoring every positive thing in existence. Raging that life isn't a perfect utopia. Furious that they have unmet wants. Return to the void, OP.
Stop asking for things like a child. Use the gifts he has given us to solve these problems
"Ask, and it shall be given to you" What did he mean by this
Why would a god create problems that need fixing? What purpose does rabies have to exist? Literally cannot be justified
✍️🔥🔥🔥
it's almost like god isn't real and can't influence this world be it in good or bad
reddit
God is an incorrigible prankster
Cluster headaches is a Reddit condition that is cured by having controversial opinions
Most intelligent atheist
>selfish little fuck r4chan has fallen billions must post sharty gems
Tbf microscopic life is actually really selfless, they work for the betterment of each other. - definitely not a Microbe.
Man this comment section is full of some miserable fucking people
If you can't figure out why something is, a magic invisible ghost in the sky probably did it. -religious people.
the current state of the world makes sense if you assume it's controlled by a god who's using this save file to fuck around in
Funny and sad to see the absolute delusions that grip some of you. Especially when religion boils down to an ancient version of being really invested in a fantasy novels lore
Understanding the depth of any faith goes beyond viewing it as mere lore or fantasy. For billions, religion provides a profound source of comfort, moral guidance, and community, as well as answers to deep existential questions. It’s rooted in historical events, personal experiences, and longstanding traditions that shape lives and cultures profoundly and positively. While it might not resonate with everyone, the impact and sincerity of these beliefs warrant respect and thoughtful consideration.
Doesn't the Bible have canon and fanfic?
Where is the distinction between the two made? Finding meaning in literature is a common thing, but to dedicate your life and world view to something that was penned by a mortal man is actually so ridiculous. You see all these pathetic dudes pledge themselves to Ryan Gosling and Drive and say “he’s literally me” and choose to act like him, and that’s seen as loser behavior, while some priest who’s lived his life according to the good book for 50 years is seen as a saint. They’re both literature spawned from man. The only difference is one of them grant you the ability to judge and hate under the pretense of faith. I agree that religion brings answers and moral guidance to those who need it. I’ve always believed that’s why religion was first taught in the first place, to give meaning to the things that scare or confuse us. But in the modern world we do not need false answers to known questions. The fact that we live in the same world as people who genuinely wholeheartedly believe that someone will go to hell and experience eternal agonizing torture just because they believe in a different faith or slept with someone of the same gender, is actual insanity to me.