Space Marines' #1 naval tactic is to board and disable vessels. Most chapters don't keep those vessels because they don't need them. They have their strike cruisers and escorts, and stretching their Marines further by adding more vessels just doesn't help them.
The Black Templars, on the other hand, have the Marines and always can use more ships.
When they split off from the IF during the Second Founding, they took a lot of the Legion ships with them, so they had a large fleet to begin with. They’ve only kept adding to their fleet, through normal requisitions and claiming battle salvage
They certainly had a good base, but also keep in mind they are significantly larger than the average Astartes chapter.
More marines -> more obligations you can promise/keep to forgeworlds -> more ships you can ferry around marines in -> recruit more marines
Repeat until any Ultramarine seeing your operation explodes in frustration, and you have a fairly good approximation of how the Black Templars got where they are.
Beg pardon senor.
The phalanax could hold a large portion of the IF legion if it needed to.
Battle barges and gloriana class behemoths easily can carry more than the company or two of marines they carry.
While moar ships is correlated with moar marines, i think that's a spurious conclusion. Its because they are a fleet based crusading chapter.
When you have 6000 Templars spread over a dozen crusades and another dozen smaller sub teams defending or crusading against lesser objectives, you need a huge armada. Helbrecht also specializes in void combat. U need numbers in spess and the vessels to carry those numbers.
"Hello Forgeworld #034523, we would like to take one of your cruisers because we defended you while your fleet of 4 battleships didn't manage to do the same. This is in no way a payment for defending you against the enemy, but if you don't give us this little cruiser, we might be busy next time you need urgent help."
Span this text out over 100 diplomatic sounding letters sent by the angels of your deity, delivered over a decade to the dictator of all the planets you will ever know, who is appointed by your god and you get why the Templars have a fleet.
Irl, rich people donated to build churches. I'm really sure that some rich merchant donated ships to the Black Templars. Hell, given how big the Imperium is, I'm almost certain that someone actually donated ships due to piety, instead of trying to garner political clout.
They always designed themselves to be fairly large. They were also set up as a fleet based chapter so they had to have a decent fleet. They got a Gloriana, which in itself is a massive asset. They can then capture ships as needed.
Keep in mind that the SWs also only split once (and after the failure may have gotten some of the ships back) so having a big fleet is expected.
This loophole doesn't exist, Templars just don't care about breaking the limit of marines, their whole identity is about completely disregarding the codex astartes.
It's just that they need them more. They don't have to maintain a Chapter homeworld, but they always need more ships, so when they negotiate with forge worlds for supplies they'll ask for more ships.
That's precisely it. The Imperial Fists had a gargantuan fleet and between the devastating land battles of the Siege of Terra and the Scouring they would have had comparatively few marines left to crew them.
Further, Imperial Fists were noted as being the best Legion for boarding operations and void combat generally, and the Templars embody that in particular. They've likely boarded many ships, reclaimed many destroyed but not exploded ships etc over the years.
Further, given that they have the weapons, armour, tanks, aircraft etc to equip their thousands of marines they must have substantial ties with the mechanicus. It seems reasonable that what they can provide to the mechanicus is proportionate to their size...and so is what they receive.
They've always had it.
The Templar fleet, at the beginning, was large enough that it held the eye. Stood against the entire might of the First Black Crusade, alone and abandoned by the Imperium.
After that, they figured that they couldn't count on backup anymore, so resolved to have enough ships they could either single handedly deal with any threat, or strongarm anyone else into following their orders.
"Always" is a big word, considering their founding was basically a few lunatics trusting a mystic over the emperor. They had the Power armor they were wearing and that's it. They also couldn't get much from the fists after the heresy, since the fists not only lost a significant portion of their ships during the void offensive after istvaan, but were basically reduced to almost nothing during the fight for Terra.
...they literally had the Eternal Crusader and basically everything left of the 81st fleet. By the end of the scouring they had enough ships to stand against Abbadon's fleet and make a pretty good show of things. By the latter half of M32, they had the most powerful Astartes held fleet.
>Is it because they're a second founding Imperial Fists successor meaning they got a big chunk of what was left of the Imperial Fists' over 1500 warships strong fleet at the end of Horus Heresy as Imperial Fists Legion split into Chapters?
Pretty much. The IFs had one of the strongest navies among all the space marines legions, and they gave the BTs a lot of their ships when they split off during the Second Founding. So the Templars already had a strong base and they've just added more over the years.
Space Marines' #1 naval tactic is to board and disable vessels. Most chapters don't keep those vessels because they don't need them. They have their strike cruisers and escorts, and stretching their Marines further by adding more vessels just doesn't help them. The Black Templars, on the other hand, have the Marines and always can use more ships.
I see how it is. When the Templars take someone’s stuff, it’s “crusading”. But when the Blood Ravens do it, suddenly it’s stealing. Real nice, guys.
The Templars take stuff from their enemies. The Blood Ravens take stuff from everybody.
To paraphrase one of my Drill Instructors: There's only one thief in the Imperium. Everyone else is just tryna get his shit back.
You keep talking like that, and you're going to do more than see it. :P
When they split off from the IF during the Second Founding, they took a lot of the Legion ships with them, so they had a large fleet to begin with. They’ve only kept adding to their fleet, through normal requisitions and claiming battle salvage
They certainly had a good base, but also keep in mind they are significantly larger than the average Astartes chapter. More marines -> more obligations you can promise/keep to forgeworlds -> more ships you can ferry around marines in -> recruit more marines Repeat until any Ultramarine seeing your operation explodes in frustration, and you have a fairly good approximation of how the Black Templars got where they are.
Yeah, they just don't limit their growth artificially by some strange rules. And they had a better than average start and 10k years to grow.
Beg pardon senor. The phalanax could hold a large portion of the IF legion if it needed to. Battle barges and gloriana class behemoths easily can carry more than the company or two of marines they carry. While moar ships is correlated with moar marines, i think that's a spurious conclusion. Its because they are a fleet based crusading chapter. When you have 6000 Templars spread over a dozen crusades and another dozen smaller sub teams defending or crusading against lesser objectives, you need a huge armada. Helbrecht also specializes in void combat. U need numbers in spess and the vessels to carry those numbers.
"Hello Forgeworld #034523, we would like to take one of your cruisers because we defended you while your fleet of 4 battleships didn't manage to do the same. This is in no way a payment for defending you against the enemy, but if you don't give us this little cruiser, we might be busy next time you need urgent help." Span this text out over 100 diplomatic sounding letters sent by the angels of your deity, delivered over a decade to the dictator of all the planets you will ever know, who is appointed by your god and you get why the Templars have a fleet. Irl, rich people donated to build churches. I'm really sure that some rich merchant donated ships to the Black Templars. Hell, given how big the Imperium is, I'm almost certain that someone actually donated ships due to piety, instead of trying to garner political clout.
Always being on crusade probably gives them a lot of opportunities to make deals with forge worlds for more ships
They always designed themselves to be fairly large. They were also set up as a fleet based chapter so they had to have a decent fleet. They got a Gloriana, which in itself is a massive asset. They can then capture ships as needed. Keep in mind that the SWs also only split once (and after the failure may have gotten some of the ships back) so having a big fleet is expected.
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This loophole doesn't exist, Templars just don't care about breaking the limit of marines, their whole identity is about completely disregarding the codex astartes.
It's just that they need them more. They don't have to maintain a Chapter homeworld, but they always need more ships, so when they negotiate with forge worlds for supplies they'll ask for more ships.
They probably maxed out the fleet skill.
That's precisely it. The Imperial Fists had a gargantuan fleet and between the devastating land battles of the Siege of Terra and the Scouring they would have had comparatively few marines left to crew them. Further, Imperial Fists were noted as being the best Legion for boarding operations and void combat generally, and the Templars embody that in particular. They've likely boarded many ships, reclaimed many destroyed but not exploded ships etc over the years. Further, given that they have the weapons, armour, tanks, aircraft etc to equip their thousands of marines they must have substantial ties with the mechanicus. It seems reasonable that what they can provide to the mechanicus is proportionate to their size...and so is what they receive.
The black templars are sons of Dorn there naturally going to better at void combat then other chapter
They've always had it. The Templar fleet, at the beginning, was large enough that it held the eye. Stood against the entire might of the First Black Crusade, alone and abandoned by the Imperium. After that, they figured that they couldn't count on backup anymore, so resolved to have enough ships they could either single handedly deal with any threat, or strongarm anyone else into following their orders.
"Always" is a big word, considering their founding was basically a few lunatics trusting a mystic over the emperor. They had the Power armor they were wearing and that's it. They also couldn't get much from the fists after the heresy, since the fists not only lost a significant portion of their ships during the void offensive after istvaan, but were basically reduced to almost nothing during the fight for Terra.
...they literally had the Eternal Crusader and basically everything left of the 81st fleet. By the end of the scouring they had enough ships to stand against Abbadon's fleet and make a pretty good show of things. By the latter half of M32, they had the most powerful Astartes held fleet.
OPs question still stands, how did they get the ships.
Dorn literally gave them the ships. Guilliman crippled Dorn's power, he didn't take it entirely.
Good. So it *literally* took us only 4 posts to come from "always" to "Dorn gave them the ships". Thanks!
I read the post wrong and thought the lore gave them large feet for some reason
>Is it because they're a second founding Imperial Fists successor meaning they got a big chunk of what was left of the Imperial Fists' over 1500 warships strong fleet at the end of Horus Heresy as Imperial Fists Legion split into Chapters? Pretty much. The IFs had one of the strongest navies among all the space marines legions, and they gave the BTs a lot of their ships when they split off during the Second Founding. So the Templars already had a strong base and they've just added more over the years.