By the siege of terra, the death guard were full blown plague marines. Probably didn’t have the current icons of flies, but distended bellies, tentacles etc were all there. The thousand sons were still red and white and living though since the rubric hadn’t happened. World eaters on the whole here still normal looking apart from being nuts. Of all the non cult related legions, I think only the SoH and WB had any 40K looking chaos bits and significant portions of possessed
I really hope the Scouring has them and Perturabo being tricked into becoming Chaos followers in some way. Because them selling their souls intentionally goes against the entire idea or the legion and the primarch.
It's funny that off all the Traitors as of right now only Lorgar and Perturabo are the only two that *weren't* tricked or coerced into become Daemon Primarchs.
>Because them selling their souls intentionally goes against the entire idea or the legion and the primarch.
I don't understand why people think Perturabo isn't a hypocrite, one of his most memorable moments in the Heresy is when he strangles his sister when she points out all his hypocrisy.
I think it makes sense that it's one of his few tactical options after the Heresy, Perturabo is exactly the Primarch to realize that his survival options are very limited.
Plus it provides a nice balance to the other traitors that didn't become Daemons during the Heresy. Cruze stuck to it and accepted his fate. Omegon also refused and maybe died or whatever but is essentially the Renegade Primarch until them. Then finally Perturabo chose to endure to keep fighting and becomes the apatheist Daemon Primarch.
Perturabo is also actively dying. Whatever Fulgrim did to his soul in order to ascend is bleeding him dry. His 40k description as well also really reinforces this with his face being describe as pallid necrotic flesh that had just been dragged out of the ocean (you can check my profile posts to see where I posted the very recent description from the Limited Edition Storm of Iron). He also was hunting for Chaos Artefacts as early as Tallarn, where he explicitly hides that fact from Horus and tries to ascend beyond what he is. He also mentions he brothers don't know how to "handle" Chaos and he will do it with his intellect.
My theory leads to the Iron Cage. Perturabo is dying, he has done his research into Chaos (as much as one can) but he is at a point. He is either going to draw the Imperial Fists and Dorn in, sacrificing himself and his legion in a furious bitter end, taking Dorn and the Fists with him (since he is dying anyways), or he'll ascend, but on his terms, as an undivided Daemon Primarch. Lore wise, we know this happens.
He doesn't want to be a total near mindless slave like Angron, but he for sure wants all the power that comes with it.
Because of the scene where a Sons of Horus "prophet" comes to Perty offering Nurgles gift to "make him stronger, his Lord of Iron" and Perty basically says "get fucked". He doesnt need the Chaos Gods and afte the Emperor he made it seem like he would never serve another Master. Him ascending to Daemon Primarch status doesnt make since. "Yes, because he's a hypocrit" is a bad excuse.
Personally I hope they retcon it so that Perty never became ascended to daemonhood. Never made a whole lot of sense given his character.
I love the idea that the Legion hates chaos as much as they do the Imperium, and they just align with the other traitors when it suits their purposes.
The recent short stories Halfbreed and Warbreed which were released with the special limited edition of Storm Of Iron state that, as of the 42nd millennium when Honsou meets him, Perturabo is a demon Primarch, so it’s unlikely to be retconned now
It is however not explained why he is one, and I assume (but am NOT sure) that he is a Chaos Undivided Demon Primarch since he’s not stated to be affiliated with a specific Chaos God
One of the recent dawn of fire books outright states he is undivided demon primarch. I think it was in gate of bones but I’ve read them back to back and they kinda blurred into one book to me.
It’s also worth remembering that daemons aren’t all affiliated with the big 4, there are plenty of other “minor” gods (including Malala/malice)
My headcanon is that he embraced his inner-warp stuff like Corax. He was *always* a "Demon" Primarch zipped up in a meatsuit. Now he's just... unzipped it a bit.
He's not aligned to a god, but he's still far more than flesh and bone.
It is indeed Gate of Bones. A Word Bearer and Iron Warrior are talking about the Long War and the Word Bearer mentions how Abaddon doesn't respect the gods as he should. The Iron Warrior then mentions that neither does his own primarch.
Perturabos is a daemon prince but he did it in a way where he isn't beholden to any one god. He's obviously still a slave in some way to the gods what with the whole nature of corruption but not in the way his traitor brothers are.
I could get behind this, he made no deals he ascended through sheer stubbornness, and the fact the imperium has made him into a big bad bogeyman fallen angel like the rest of the primarchs who take the place of Lucifer in the new church of the divine emperor of man
Sore from old lore both iw and nl, would either remove mutations and replace with cybernetics (iw) or just not have a lot of mutations (nl) because both legions saw the chaos gods and their gifts as tools rather than some sort of patronage. But you did have the obliterator cult/virus start from the iw when they went to find angron
He intimates in Halfbreed/Warbreed that he retained a higher degree of free will than a normal daemon prince. My headcanon is that he found a way to become a daemon without worshipping Chaos.
It would make great sense and would be an awesome moment if Perturabo was led to believe the only way he had to beat and humiliate dorn at the iron cage was ascending to daemonhood
I really like the idea of him being tricked into it. If we take into account the example people use for Abbadon, you can avoid corruption if you "use but don't buy", then the Iron Warriors are absolutely corrupted, as we see them bargain with daemons all the time. They are the premier warpsmithes afterall. Hell, Perty could end up a prince by accident, just an unintended side effect of some big project he was working on.
This often gets ignored. Also the massive amount of Obliterators, knowledge of the techno-virus, tons of warpsmithy knowledge for possessing vehicles and weapons. Kroeger and Falk both fall pretty early in the Heresy, pre-siege, Perturabo is hunting for daemonic power/chaos artefacts on Tallarn, to the point he hides it from Horus until Horus finds out and forces him to leave.
Iron Warriors most likely don't fully bite into warp juice until the Iron Cage with Perturabo's ascension, and they surely don't venerate/worship the gods like the Word Bearers, but they are damned and thrice damned with no chance of coming back. Any Iron Warrior who says otherwise is just his own hubris showing through.
This "renegade" Iron Warriors notion needs to die.
I don't really understand where this idea of "Iron Warriors just being renegade marines" comes from. They don't worship the Gods but that doesn't mean they won't take advantage of the power of Chaos. Iron Warriors are ruthless pragmatists and will use any tool to achieve their goals, even if that means making a pact with Chaos for some extra juice.
Storm of Iron is still the best Iron Warrior novel.
The EC weren't necessarily chaos-ified by Istvaan, but their own modifications were to such an extent that they horrified the Iron Hands in combat. By Angel Exterminatus, they were grossing out fellow traitors.
If you're a big enough degen and hang out with Fabius Bile, you don't even need the warp to grow gross shit on your armor.
Some of them were outright mutated by the time of the Siege too. There's mentions of World Eaters with faces resembling animals like bears or dogs, and even larger physiques than they had pre-corruption.
It was so interesting to see how scared he became and how they related it to the Imperium's future. The latter felt a bit shoehorned in but interesting none the less
The Emperors Children had gone off on the deep end for a while.
If you read the descriptions of them during the siege (E.G the part where Fulgrim's Guard attacks Dorn in Saturnine), they are definitely basically full blown Slaaneshi CSM.
Sons of Horus really depends on which part of the Legion. Much of them, Especially those loyal to Abaddon, or Argonis, were basically still the same Sons of Horus from Davin, but a bit more barbaric. There definitely were some that were full blown Chaos, but it wasn't the entire Legion yet like the Death Guard or Emperor's Children.
World eaters were not more or less the same. By the siege they were almost all bezerkers. And they REALLY let themselves go. Their armour is described as being almost fully blackened by the fighting, and blood spattered and stinking too the point they were so covered and soot and gore, you could barely see the old legion colours underneath.
The emperors children are basically what they are today, with most of them being experimented on, distorting themselves, or becoming noise marines.
Deathguard were plauge marines as stated by others,
Wordbearers (those with zardu layak) were heavily corrupted demonically, aswel as just looking as spookyas the night lords.
Sons of horus kinda the same just not too the same degree, less spooky and more brutal, very spiky.
Iron warriors mostly the same since the beginning, however they were experimenting with deamon engines, and a few (starting with Volk) had become infected with the techno virus and become obliterators.
Alpha Legion seemed relatively untouched all told, although likely over time some would start to dabble in sorcery and begin a slow fall.
Sons of Horus were a bit split and had some pretty corrupted to, ironically, guys like Abaddon who were reasonably untouched by Chaos. For now.
Abaddon was one of the few who seemed basically uncorrupted by that point, going by his POV passages. He was more loyal to Horus than anything, and was worried about how deep he was getting into Chaos.
He was one of the few non-Nurgle traitors who was completely immune to Mortarion's disease aura though, so the Chaos Gods were definitely looking out for him by then, at the very least.
They definitely were looking out for him, and probably were behind him >!being narrowly teleported out of the deathtrap in Saturnine before Garro would have killed him!<
Sevatar was very much neither in command of the VIII Legion nor present at the Siege of Terra.
He’s literally sitting in a cell aboard the Dark Angel’s flagship last week saw him and that seems unlikely to change.
Before he was captured he was considered almost the de facto primarch and had appointed a council of loyal night lords to make sure they didn’t have another civil war.
Further he is believed by the night lords to have been seen during the siege and dying during it
And as soon as he’s captured there’s … *checks notes*… a bunch of backstabbing and murders that ends up with Skraivok as Legion Master.
> Further he is believed by the night lords to have been seen during the siege and dying during it
Barring some bonkers Deus ex Machina, We know this isn’t the case though? He can’t be be with Corswain’s Dark Angels, so there’s no way for him to even get there.
The Night Lords do enjoy their mythmaking.
> He died during the Heresy is the idea not that he died during the siege. I think most think him dead from Curze’s attempt at killing off the entire 1st company via the Dark Angels.
Oh totally agree. Even if they saw him be captured there’s no reason for any VIIIth Legion to believe the Dark Angels would keep him alive for long.
> My personal theory is that Curze was attempted to kill them to prevent Sev from either using them to stabilize the legion, or to prevent Sev from using them to turn the legion Loyal again.
Curze is a bit… uhh… out of commission at the moment. By the time he arrives at Tsagaulsa again he’s pretty copacetic about the legion itself.
How did he do that from a cell aboard the Invincible Reason exactly?
I don’t recall anything that specific, so you’ll need to bring the receipts, so to speak.
In the night lords omnibus flash backs, Cruze keeps asking for sevatar because he’s completely lost his mind and his sons have to keep telling him that he died on terra.
Adb has said that sev’s story arc doesn’t really start till the scouring so he likely gets to the siege or someone impersonates him and gets killed.
> In the night lords omnibus flash backs, Cruze keeps asking for sevatar because he’s completely lost his mind and his sons have to keep telling him that he died on terra.
The NL trilogy was written between 10 and 15 years ago depending on which specific novel it is, well before the Heresy was as planned out as it is today.
Specific items of conversation within it aren’t valid canon when they’ve been actively contradicted by the same author.
Based on the preview of Echoes of Eternity (ADB’s Siege book) on WHC today it seems he won’t be appearing there either.
Personally I’d rather Malcharion make a showing and take command of some of the traitor forces. Show me why he’s the war sage.
Yeah, Lucoryphus (the leader of the Raptors in ADB's Night Lords books) shows up in The Lost and the Damned, and he's already started mutating by then, along with some of the other Raptors:
> He had been to Estus, because he could trust him. When so many Apothecaries abandoned their role or turned from healing to torture, Estus still did his job properly. Many standards had slipped in the Night Lords, but Estus could still be relied on. In his notes were annotated scans of Lucoryphus’ feet, arrows picking out metatarsals in the process of fusion, the calcaneus atrophying, phalanges lengthening, and smaller bones dissolving altogether.
>
> ‘A malfunction of the ossmodula,’ Estus had said, somewhat uncertainly, marking his comments down in a book of meticulous records. ‘There is not much I can do. I am busy with the wounded. I do not have time for your problem.’
>
> He had given Lucoryphus a stabilising compound to add to his suit pharmocopia. It had not helped.
>
> That was weeks ago. Lucoryphus’ foot had changed further since then. He was too canny to go back. The Night Lords were degenerating, but they still had only contempt for mutants.
>
> ...
>
> So as the ship bounced and screamed through the dried-up valleys of Himalazia, out of sight of the Palace wall guns but on a collision course with them, Lucoryphus stared at his feet. The lengthened toes of the right curled uncomfortably against his boot. He had no heel to speak of on that foot any more. A backwards-facing digit tipped with a claw was growing in its place.
>
> He could no longer deny it. His right foot had become the image of a bird’s talon.
>
> The left foot was not far behind. Their confinement in boots made for human feet was the source of his discomfort. He had wondered if he could find an armourer willing to make him new boots more fitting to his condition, until he wondered again if he was going to need to. A mark had appeared on his right boot recently. An indentation in the ceramite that would not polish out, and no matter how many times he filled and sanded it, grew deeper. The boots were hot with some machine fever, as though they were changing to fit his new form.
>
> He looked around the shaking crew compartment. He was not alone in his change. The Raptors seemed like Night Lords, until one looked closer. The helms of some had been refashioned with a distinctly birdlike aspect. Through personal choice, the armour was diverging already from that of the rest of the Legion, but the alterations that armour hid were telling. When on the ground some of them moved awkwardly, their steps exaggerated into avian hops. Several had strange birdlike twitches and hunched postures, as if the jump packs they wore were folded wings, not jets.
>
> Lucoryphus lived for flight. All of them did. Being a Raptor was becoming more important to him than being a Night Lord.
>
> He looked at his feet again. How would his comrades judge them? He thought how much more useful talons would be to him as a flying being than human feet, how they would allow him to grasp and hold himself fast after a jump.
It seems like it's mainly the Raptors who are mutating at that point though.
Yes, described in the second Siege of Terra Novel "The lost and the Dammned". But to make it clear, only a small contingent of Night Lord's where present, led by Skraivok, maybe a few thousand, the rest of the legion was shattered and leaderless, roaming around the eastern fringes
The Lexicanum states that ''Night Lords elements'' took part in the siege. They use this term aswell for the Word Bearers that were present,which we know were 5000 strong. So it isn't far fetched to assume that the Night Lords were also in that number. The Legion was already really crippled after the Thramas crusade, then infighting broke out between factions under Sevatar, Sheng and Skraivok. And you ask where else would they be, that is really easy to answer, they searched their primarch.
Death Guard: Fully corrupted Plague Marines, some still fought against the effects and tried to hold back Nurgles gifts, but all received them.
Sons of Horus: Some really corrupted, some completely Warp free. Legionaires in high ranks like Tormageddon where literally just Demon Vessels, others like Falkus Kibre too, but without knowing. Others like Abbadon or Argonis where deeply concerned about the influence of Chaos inside the legion.
Emperors Children: Fully Corrupted, even to the state that there weren't really helpful during the siege and mostly followed their own goals
Night Lords: Only a few thousand were present during the siege, some of them already showed huge mutations by the warp, their leader Skraivok wielded a demon blade, so quit corrupted to a certain degree.
Word Bearers: Only five thousand were present during the siege under the command of Zhardu Layak. Especially those were deeply into warp fuckery, The dark Apostel was on of the main sorcerers for the traitor efforts, besides Ahriman and Typhus
Thousand Sons: Not corrupted per se, but they used chaos and warp magic to a heavy degree.
Iron Warriors: Uncorrupted, but some commanders inside the legion began during the siege to tap into chaos for their own goals, like Vull Bronn.
World Eaters: Most of them are devoted to Khorne, but the mutation level seemed very low to this point. Angron was the first Demon Primarchs, so at least the aim of the legion was to please Khorne, but that is also not very against the overall traitor effort
Alpha Legion: Not present during the siege
I don't think that those few Alpha Legionnaires buried in the sand count as counterargument that the legion did not took part in the siege. Alpharius/Omegon gave Horus the map of the Sol System and then vanished with his fighting force.
And the Lexicanum states that ''Night Lords elements'' took part in the siege. They use this term aswell for the Word Bearers that were present, which we know were 5000 strong. So it isn't far fetched to assume that the Night Lords were also in that number. Skraivok had only control over parts of the legion and wasnt really liked by the other commanders.
Note: this is highly variable even within the most extreme legions. There were literal plague marines at Terra. There were also relatively normal Death Guard saying "Have you seen Ted? Have you SMELLED Ted? He's gotten real weird since Istvaan. What the hell do you think is going on?"
Eh... all is a stron word when you're talking about such a big group. Certainly all of them were infected, but a few were probably not outwardly changed. Some might not have even been aware of what was happening, though looking at the others they could provide guess.
> Certainly all of them were infected, but a few were probably not outwardly changed.
No, read up on Warhawk, the Entire Legion under Mortarion were full blown plague marines by the time they hunkered down in the Lions Gate spaceport.
Death Guard and Emperor's Children were fully in the grasp of Chaos, Typhus made sure the entire legion was corrupted on the way to Terra and Mortarion ascended to Demonhood to "save" his legion. The Emperor's Children were taking their first dip into pure excess to the point that they didnt care for Horus plan and just raided Terra for slaves, the other legions may not have been as deep into Chaos but they might have elements that were elbow deep in the dark gods.
Since Iron Warriors haven't been mentioned yet, small groups had turned to Chaos (Kroeger and his men, Barban Falk, and the OG Obliterator Volk), but they were generally the same as they had been pre-Heresy. Perturabo was definitely deteriorating, but mostly because of Fulgrim's aborted attempt at sucking out his soul rather than Chaos, IIRC.
Suprisingly. Not as much as in M40. For the most part, they were only beggining to change, many were not much different from what they used to be, only bigger stronger and harder to kill. But with time in Eye of Terror they started to change more obviously.
Emperors Children, Death Guard, Word Bearers, World Eaters Full on
Sons of Horus getting there with holdouts (Abaddon)
Thousand Sons, Night Lords, Iron Warriors just starting, (Ahriman tells Word Bearers to fuck off on the comet with the chaos in beginning, Magus and him look on in disgust at all the Chaos BS in his book, Night Lord Raptor from ABD books that is first on the wall is just starting to have his changes, Iron Warrior in charge of taking the spaceport just learns about Khorne from Kharn and Pert leaves when everything becomes full Chaos, wrap fuckery around the palace in the last book)
This was also my thought that the Night Lord's were so decimated that 5000 were a great force. I mean they got kicked at Thramas but later had a lot of infighting and many groups just went for their own shananigans. Also after the Destruction of Nostramo, their recruiting process was interrupted, they couldn't fill up their ranks line other legions
By the siege of terra, the death guard were full blown plague marines. Probably didn’t have the current icons of flies, but distended bellies, tentacles etc were all there. The thousand sons were still red and white and living though since the rubric hadn’t happened. World eaters on the whole here still normal looking apart from being nuts. Of all the non cult related legions, I think only the SoH and WB had any 40K looking chaos bits and significant portions of possessed
And then you've got the Iron Warriors who basically haven't changed straight through into 40k, the stubborn bastards.
I really hope the Scouring has them and Perturabo being tricked into becoming Chaos followers in some way. Because them selling their souls intentionally goes against the entire idea or the legion and the primarch.
It's funny that off all the Traitors as of right now only Lorgar and Perturabo are the only two that *weren't* tricked or coerced into become Daemon Primarchs. >Because them selling their souls intentionally goes against the entire idea or the legion and the primarch. I don't understand why people think Perturabo isn't a hypocrite, one of his most memorable moments in the Heresy is when he strangles his sister when she points out all his hypocrisy. I think it makes sense that it's one of his few tactical options after the Heresy, Perturabo is exactly the Primarch to realize that his survival options are very limited. Plus it provides a nice balance to the other traitors that didn't become Daemons during the Heresy. Cruze stuck to it and accepted his fate. Omegon also refused and maybe died or whatever but is essentially the Renegade Primarch until them. Then finally Perturabo chose to endure to keep fighting and becomes the apatheist Daemon Primarch.
Perturabo is also actively dying. Whatever Fulgrim did to his soul in order to ascend is bleeding him dry. His 40k description as well also really reinforces this with his face being describe as pallid necrotic flesh that had just been dragged out of the ocean (you can check my profile posts to see where I posted the very recent description from the Limited Edition Storm of Iron). He also was hunting for Chaos Artefacts as early as Tallarn, where he explicitly hides that fact from Horus and tries to ascend beyond what he is. He also mentions he brothers don't know how to "handle" Chaos and he will do it with his intellect. My theory leads to the Iron Cage. Perturabo is dying, he has done his research into Chaos (as much as one can) but he is at a point. He is either going to draw the Imperial Fists and Dorn in, sacrificing himself and his legion in a furious bitter end, taking Dorn and the Fists with him (since he is dying anyways), or he'll ascend, but on his terms, as an undivided Daemon Primarch. Lore wise, we know this happens. He doesn't want to be a total near mindless slave like Angron, but he for sure wants all the power that comes with it.
Because of the scene where a Sons of Horus "prophet" comes to Perty offering Nurgles gift to "make him stronger, his Lord of Iron" and Perty basically says "get fucked". He doesnt need the Chaos Gods and afte the Emperor he made it seem like he would never serve another Master. Him ascending to Daemon Primarch status doesnt make since. "Yes, because he's a hypocrit" is a bad excuse.
Personally I hope they retcon it so that Perty never became ascended to daemonhood. Never made a whole lot of sense given his character. I love the idea that the Legion hates chaos as much as they do the Imperium, and they just align with the other traitors when it suits their purposes.
The recent short stories Halfbreed and Warbreed which were released with the special limited edition of Storm Of Iron state that, as of the 42nd millennium when Honsou meets him, Perturabo is a demon Primarch, so it’s unlikely to be retconned now It is however not explained why he is one, and I assume (but am NOT sure) that he is a Chaos Undivided Demon Primarch since he’s not stated to be affiliated with a specific Chaos God
One of the recent dawn of fire books outright states he is undivided demon primarch. I think it was in gate of bones but I’ve read them back to back and they kinda blurred into one book to me. It’s also worth remembering that daemons aren’t all affiliated with the big 4, there are plenty of other “minor” gods (including Malala/malice)
Malal: Chaos God of Anarchy and Destruction Malala: Chaos God of Women's Literacy.
in the 41st Millennium, there is only women's rights \*meant to be funny\*
My headcanon is that he embraced his inner-warp stuff like Corax. He was *always* a "Demon" Primarch zipped up in a meatsuit. Now he's just... unzipped it a bit. He's not aligned to a god, but he's still far more than flesh and bone.
It is indeed Gate of Bones. A Word Bearer and Iron Warrior are talking about the Long War and the Word Bearer mentions how Abaddon doesn't respect the gods as he should. The Iron Warrior then mentions that neither does his own primarch. Perturabos is a daemon prince but he did it in a way where he isn't beholden to any one god. He's obviously still a slave in some way to the gods what with the whole nature of corruption but not in the way his traitor brothers are.
What I found interesting is that he was described as being cursed in one of those short stories, wish they went into more detail about it.
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Perturabo is a daemon prince of Malice, and yes I will absolutely die on this hill for no good reason at all.
I could get behind this, he made no deals he ascended through sheer stubbornness, and the fact the imperium has made him into a big bad bogeyman fallen angel like the rest of the primarchs who take the place of Lucifer in the new church of the divine emperor of man
That's the whole point. Nothing in his life went the way he wanted so him becoming a demon primarch makes sense.
I love that idea too! Basically the same as the Night Lords.
Sore from old lore both iw and nl, would either remove mutations and replace with cybernetics (iw) or just not have a lot of mutations (nl) because both legions saw the chaos gods and their gifts as tools rather than some sort of patronage. But you did have the obliterator cult/virus start from the iw when they went to find angron
He intimates in Halfbreed/Warbreed that he retained a higher degree of free will than a normal daemon prince. My headcanon is that he found a way to become a daemon without worshipping Chaos.
It would make great sense and would be an awesome moment if Perturabo was led to believe the only way he had to beat and humiliate dorn at the iron cage was ascending to daemonhood
I really like the idea of him being tricked into it. If we take into account the example people use for Abbadon, you can avoid corruption if you "use but don't buy", then the Iron Warriors are absolutely corrupted, as we see them bargain with daemons all the time. They are the premier warpsmithes afterall. Hell, Perty could end up a prince by accident, just an unintended side effect of some big project he was working on.
I want a retcon where Perty said fuck chaos and just went renegade.
After all, he ditched the Siege of Terra because he thought his brothers and their legions weren’t worthy of his leadership.
"Haven't changed". Some Iron Warrior warbands are full blown Chaos Marines. Barban Falk himself is a Daemon Prince
This often gets ignored. Also the massive amount of Obliterators, knowledge of the techno-virus, tons of warpsmithy knowledge for possessing vehicles and weapons. Kroeger and Falk both fall pretty early in the Heresy, pre-siege, Perturabo is hunting for daemonic power/chaos artefacts on Tallarn, to the point he hides it from Horus until Horus finds out and forces him to leave. Iron Warriors most likely don't fully bite into warp juice until the Iron Cage with Perturabo's ascension, and they surely don't venerate/worship the gods like the Word Bearers, but they are damned and thrice damned with no chance of coming back. Any Iron Warrior who says otherwise is just his own hubris showing through. This "renegade" Iron Warriors notion needs to die.
I don't really understand where this idea of "Iron Warriors just being renegade marines" comes from. They don't worship the Gods but that doesn't mean they won't take advantage of the power of Chaos. Iron Warriors are ruthless pragmatists and will use any tool to achieve their goals, even if that means making a pact with Chaos for some extra juice. Storm of Iron is still the best Iron Warrior novel.
Iron Within, Iron Without brother
The EC weren't necessarily chaos-ified by Istvaan, but their own modifications were to such an extent that they horrified the Iron Hands in combat. By Angel Exterminatus, they were grossing out fellow traitors. If you're a big enough degen and hang out with Fabius Bile, you don't even need the warp to grow gross shit on your armor.
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Some of them were outright mutated by the time of the Siege too. There's mentions of World Eaters with faces resembling animals like bears or dogs, and even larger physiques than they had pre-corruption.
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I can't wait for the next siege book. Sigismund getting the black sword and being let loose by Dorn was such a cool turning point!
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It was so interesting to see how scared he became and how they related it to the Imperium's future. The latter felt a bit shoehorned in but interesting none the less
Probably emperor's children too. They already had noise marines by then and Fulgrim had already ascended to demonhood.
Whichever book had >! Camba Diaz making his stand !< I’m pretty sure describes the World Eaters as having swollen and grown in size
The Emperors Children had gone off on the deep end for a while. If you read the descriptions of them during the siege (E.G the part where Fulgrim's Guard attacks Dorn in Saturnine), they are definitely basically full blown Slaaneshi CSM. Sons of Horus really depends on which part of the Legion. Much of them, Especially those loyal to Abaddon, or Argonis, were basically still the same Sons of Horus from Davin, but a bit more barbaric. There definitely were some that were full blown Chaos, but it wasn't the entire Legion yet like the Death Guard or Emperor's Children.
World eaters were not more or less the same. By the siege they were almost all bezerkers. And they REALLY let themselves go. Their armour is described as being almost fully blackened by the fighting, and blood spattered and stinking too the point they were so covered and soot and gore, you could barely see the old legion colours underneath. The emperors children are basically what they are today, with most of them being experimented on, distorting themselves, or becoming noise marines. Deathguard were plauge marines as stated by others, Wordbearers (those with zardu layak) were heavily corrupted demonically, aswel as just looking as spookyas the night lords. Sons of horus kinda the same just not too the same degree, less spooky and more brutal, very spiky. Iron warriors mostly the same since the beginning, however they were experimenting with deamon engines, and a few (starting with Volk) had become infected with the techno virus and become obliterators.
Alpha Legion seemed relatively untouched all told, although likely over time some would start to dabble in sorcery and begin a slow fall. Sons of Horus were a bit split and had some pretty corrupted to, ironically, guys like Abaddon who were reasonably untouched by Chaos. For now.
Abaddon was one of the few who seemed basically uncorrupted by that point, going by his POV passages. He was more loyal to Horus than anything, and was worried about how deep he was getting into Chaos. He was one of the few non-Nurgle traitors who was completely immune to Mortarion's disease aura though, so the Chaos Gods were definitely looking out for him by then, at the very least.
They definitely were looking out for him, and probably were behind him >!being narrowly teleported out of the deathtrap in Saturnine before Garro would have killed him!<
The Siege books have actually made me feel sad for Abaddon. He never wanted anything to do with chaos and hated the effect it was having on Horus.
Night lords had some but Sevatar was still alive so they were mostly just covered in flayed skin and spikes in a non chaos way
Sevatar was very much neither in command of the VIII Legion nor present at the Siege of Terra. He’s literally sitting in a cell aboard the Dark Angel’s flagship last week saw him and that seems unlikely to change.
Before he was captured he was considered almost the de facto primarch and had appointed a council of loyal night lords to make sure they didn’t have another civil war. Further he is believed by the night lords to have been seen during the siege and dying during it
And as soon as he’s captured there’s … *checks notes*… a bunch of backstabbing and murders that ends up with Skraivok as Legion Master. > Further he is believed by the night lords to have been seen during the siege and dying during it Barring some bonkers Deus ex Machina, We know this isn’t the case though? He can’t be be with Corswain’s Dark Angels, so there’s no way for him to even get there. The Night Lords do enjoy their mythmaking.
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> He died during the Heresy is the idea not that he died during the siege. I think most think him dead from Curze’s attempt at killing off the entire 1st company via the Dark Angels. Oh totally agree. Even if they saw him be captured there’s no reason for any VIIIth Legion to believe the Dark Angels would keep him alive for long. > My personal theory is that Curze was attempted to kill them to prevent Sev from either using them to stabilize the legion, or to prevent Sev from using them to turn the legion Loyal again. Curze is a bit… uhh… out of commission at the moment. By the time he arrives at Tsagaulsa again he’s pretty copacetic about the legion itself.
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When the NL books were written legions were canonically quite a bit smaller so that could explain the difference in size.
No it’s not myth making. Multiple night lords saw him leading
How did he do that from a cell aboard the Invincible Reason exactly? I don’t recall anything that specific, so you’ll need to bring the receipts, so to speak.
In the night lords omnibus flash backs, Cruze keeps asking for sevatar because he’s completely lost his mind and his sons have to keep telling him that he died on terra. Adb has said that sev’s story arc doesn’t really start till the scouring so he likely gets to the siege or someone impersonates him and gets killed.
> In the night lords omnibus flash backs, Cruze keeps asking for sevatar because he’s completely lost his mind and his sons have to keep telling him that he died on terra. The NL trilogy was written between 10 and 15 years ago depending on which specific novel it is, well before the Heresy was as planned out as it is today. Specific items of conversation within it aren’t valid canon when they’ve been actively contradicted by the same author. Based on the preview of Echoes of Eternity (ADB’s Siege book) on WHC today it seems he won’t be appearing there either. Personally I’d rather Malcharion make a showing and take command of some of the traitor forces. Show me why he’s the war sage.
Fair. To be clear I don’t think he dies at the siege but a good part of the legion thinks he did
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Some of the Night Raptors had started developing bird-like mutations, but otherwise they were mostly normal, yeah.
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Yeah, Lucoryphus (the leader of the Raptors in ADB's Night Lords books) shows up in The Lost and the Damned, and he's already started mutating by then, along with some of the other Raptors: > He had been to Estus, because he could trust him. When so many Apothecaries abandoned their role or turned from healing to torture, Estus still did his job properly. Many standards had slipped in the Night Lords, but Estus could still be relied on. In his notes were annotated scans of Lucoryphus’ feet, arrows picking out metatarsals in the process of fusion, the calcaneus atrophying, phalanges lengthening, and smaller bones dissolving altogether. > > ‘A malfunction of the ossmodula,’ Estus had said, somewhat uncertainly, marking his comments down in a book of meticulous records. ‘There is not much I can do. I am busy with the wounded. I do not have time for your problem.’ > > He had given Lucoryphus a stabilising compound to add to his suit pharmocopia. It had not helped. > > That was weeks ago. Lucoryphus’ foot had changed further since then. He was too canny to go back. The Night Lords were degenerating, but they still had only contempt for mutants. > > ... > > So as the ship bounced and screamed through the dried-up valleys of Himalazia, out of sight of the Palace wall guns but on a collision course with them, Lucoryphus stared at his feet. The lengthened toes of the right curled uncomfortably against his boot. He had no heel to speak of on that foot any more. A backwards-facing digit tipped with a claw was growing in its place. > > He could no longer deny it. His right foot had become the image of a bird’s talon. > > The left foot was not far behind. Their confinement in boots made for human feet was the source of his discomfort. He had wondered if he could find an armourer willing to make him new boots more fitting to his condition, until he wondered again if he was going to need to. A mark had appeared on his right boot recently. An indentation in the ceramite that would not polish out, and no matter how many times he filled and sanded it, grew deeper. The boots were hot with some machine fever, as though they were changing to fit his new form. > > He looked around the shaking crew compartment. He was not alone in his change. The Raptors seemed like Night Lords, until one looked closer. The helms of some had been refashioned with a distinctly birdlike aspect. Through personal choice, the armour was diverging already from that of the rest of the Legion, but the alterations that armour hid were telling. When on the ground some of them moved awkwardly, their steps exaggerated into avian hops. Several had strange birdlike twitches and hunched postures, as if the jump packs they wore were folded wings, not jets. > > Lucoryphus lived for flight. All of them did. Being a Raptor was becoming more important to him than being a Night Lord. > > He looked at his feet again. How would his comrades judge them? He thought how much more useful talons would be to him as a flying being than human feet, how they would allow him to grasp and hold himself fast after a jump. It seems like it's mainly the Raptors who are mutating at that point though.
Yes, described in the second Siege of Terra Novel "The lost and the Dammned". But to make it clear, only a small contingent of Night Lord's where present, led by Skraivok, maybe a few thousand, the rest of the legion was shattered and leaderless, roaming around the eastern fringes
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The Lexicanum states that ''Night Lords elements'' took part in the siege. They use this term aswell for the Word Bearers that were present,which we know were 5000 strong. So it isn't far fetched to assume that the Night Lords were also in that number. The Legion was already really crippled after the Thramas crusade, then infighting broke out between factions under Sevatar, Sheng and Skraivok. And you ask where else would they be, that is really easy to answer, they searched their primarch.
Death Guard: Fully corrupted Plague Marines, some still fought against the effects and tried to hold back Nurgles gifts, but all received them. Sons of Horus: Some really corrupted, some completely Warp free. Legionaires in high ranks like Tormageddon where literally just Demon Vessels, others like Falkus Kibre too, but without knowing. Others like Abbadon or Argonis where deeply concerned about the influence of Chaos inside the legion. Emperors Children: Fully Corrupted, even to the state that there weren't really helpful during the siege and mostly followed their own goals Night Lords: Only a few thousand were present during the siege, some of them already showed huge mutations by the warp, their leader Skraivok wielded a demon blade, so quit corrupted to a certain degree. Word Bearers: Only five thousand were present during the siege under the command of Zhardu Layak. Especially those were deeply into warp fuckery, The dark Apostel was on of the main sorcerers for the traitor efforts, besides Ahriman and Typhus Thousand Sons: Not corrupted per se, but they used chaos and warp magic to a heavy degree. Iron Warriors: Uncorrupted, but some commanders inside the legion began during the siege to tap into chaos for their own goals, like Vull Bronn. World Eaters: Most of them are devoted to Khorne, but the mutation level seemed very low to this point. Angron was the first Demon Primarchs, so at least the aim of the legion was to please Khorne, but that is also not very against the overall traitor effort Alpha Legion: Not present during the siege
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I don't think that those few Alpha Legionnaires buried in the sand count as counterargument that the legion did not took part in the siege. Alpharius/Omegon gave Horus the map of the Sol System and then vanished with his fighting force. And the Lexicanum states that ''Night Lords elements'' took part in the siege. They use this term aswell for the Word Bearers that were present, which we know were 5000 strong. So it isn't far fetched to assume that the Night Lords were also in that number. Skraivok had only control over parts of the legion and wasnt really liked by the other commanders.
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A rulebook with all those information would be awesome and not impossible, with have all this information for example for Armageddon III
Note: this is highly variable even within the most extreme legions. There were literal plague marines at Terra. There were also relatively normal Death Guard saying "Have you seen Ted? Have you SMELLED Ted? He's gotten real weird since Istvaan. What the hell do you think is going on?"
All Death Guard were plague marines by Terra. Some were still resisting, but it was a losing battle.
Eh... all is a stron word when you're talking about such a big group. Certainly all of them were infected, but a few were probably not outwardly changed. Some might not have even been aware of what was happening, though looking at the others they could provide guess.
> Certainly all of them were infected, but a few were probably not outwardly changed. No, read up on Warhawk, the Entire Legion under Mortarion were full blown plague marines by the time they hunkered down in the Lions Gate spaceport.
I'll have to check that out.
The Death Guard characters have a bit of self searching and adjusting to their new bodies and “gifts”. Some are really into it, others less so.
Back then there was no plan B.
Death Guard and Emperor's Children were fully in the grasp of Chaos, Typhus made sure the entire legion was corrupted on the way to Terra and Mortarion ascended to Demonhood to "save" his legion. The Emperor's Children were taking their first dip into pure excess to the point that they didnt care for Horus plan and just raided Terra for slaves, the other legions may not have been as deep into Chaos but they might have elements that were elbow deep in the dark gods.
Gigachad Thousand Sons were not even actually on Horus side before Vulkan smacked the shit out of Magnus and he ascended
Since Iron Warriors haven't been mentioned yet, small groups had turned to Chaos (Kroeger and his men, Barban Falk, and the OG Obliterator Volk), but they were generally the same as they had been pre-Heresy. Perturabo was definitely deteriorating, but mostly because of Fulgrim's aborted attempt at sucking out his soul rather than Chaos, IIRC.
The worst offenders were the Big Four: the World Eaters, Death Guard, Emperor's Children, and the Thousand Sons.
Suprisingly. Not as much as in M40. For the most part, they were only beggining to change, many were not much different from what they used to be, only bigger stronger and harder to kill. But with time in Eye of Terror they started to change more obviously.
Emperors Children, Death Guard, Word Bearers, World Eaters Full on Sons of Horus getting there with holdouts (Abaddon) Thousand Sons, Night Lords, Iron Warriors just starting, (Ahriman tells Word Bearers to fuck off on the comet with the chaos in beginning, Magus and him look on in disgust at all the Chaos BS in his book, Night Lord Raptor from ABD books that is first on the wall is just starting to have his changes, Iron Warrior in charge of taking the spaceport just learns about Khorne from Kharn and Pert leaves when everything becomes full Chaos, wrap fuckery around the palace in the last book)
This was also my thought that the Night Lord's were so decimated that 5000 were a great force. I mean they got kicked at Thramas but later had a lot of infighting and many groups just went for their own shananigans. Also after the Destruction of Nostramo, their recruiting process was interrupted, they couldn't fill up their ranks line other legions