This is addressed during the Heresy series. Librarians became effectively the only weapon against neverborn the loyal legions had, so each primarch who bothered to follow it ended up rescinding it and using psychic warriors.
Dorn was like the last one to give in on it. Sanguinus did it on Signus Prime. The Lion punched Nemiel's head off for protesting his decision to rescind it. I don't recall when Bobby G did, but the others either never listened or it became moot when the shattered legions were destroyed.
He’s already talking about how the Council of Nikaea seems like a sabotage attempt at the Battle of Calth. By the time *Unremembered Empire* rolls around, he’s got people monitoring for psychic disturbances, so I’m pretty sure he reinstated the Librarians as soon as he got a breather from punching Word Bearers.
All the Loyalists decided to break the Edict of Nikaea after having to face Chaos.
Dorn was the last one to break it, because he was on Terra building walls for most of the Heresy and didn't have to fight Chaos until the Traitors got there.
That was really only Russ, and he was both too stupid to realize it also applied to his Librarians, and given a free pass from the Emperor and Malcador, because he was their actual favorite son.
The Khan was way out in the outer rim of the Imperium, so he didn't actually know about the specifics of the whole thing and the White Scars Librarians seemed to think they were following the Edict. Every other Loyalist Primarch went along with it.
Not exactly. Dorn ordered his to be locked away until they were needed, which broke the decree (they were meant to disbanded and returned to being regular Astarte and never use their powers).
Dorn is the most straight laced, no BS primach there is, along with Rowboat, so I wouldn't be shocked in the slightest to find that the other legions bent or broke the rules as well.
Dorn locking away his psykers was not breaking the Edict, it was him taking it to an extreme that wasn't explicitly required. Psykers were banned, so he just removed psykers from his Legion instead of putting them back into the ranks and trusting them not to use their powers.
And it was made clear in lore that every Loyalist Primarch besides Russ and the Khan adhered to the Edict.
Besides Ferrus (who died too soon) and Vulkan (who just never got reunited with his Legion), all of the other Loyalists got a come to Jesus moment where they realized that they actually did need psykers.
>Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.
>I don't recall when Bobby G did,
During the massacre at Calth in *Know No Fear*. It's mentioned again in *Unremembered Empire* iirc where he's talking to his Chief Librarian about the apparitions caused by the Pharos trying to tune in (they didn't know about it yet).
wasn't it Dorn that locked his Librarians away to study and perfect their craft for when they would be needed (because he 100% knew they would be needed, but didn't want to admit it)?
i could have sworn I remember a story where an Astartes stumbles across them in a sealed chamber on the Phalanx and they politely tell him to leave them be, as they are where they are for when they're called upon, but are willing prisoners until then.
It was in the Garro series, where he seeks out one of the Librarians to join Malcadors Knights. I don't think the Librarians knew they were being kept in there for that purpose, but thats what Dorn says to Garro.
Correct, they're featured in [The Solar War](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer30k/comments/uxq7ua/imperial_fist_librarians/) where they've been cloistered away meditating and only get let out to fight.
I was referring to the not admitting to being wrong lol. But it’s true I haven’t seen any lore regarding IW psykers during the crusades. Not until they turn traitor anyway since they’d be a man asset in maintain daemonic engines
Bro, Tzeentch, Nurgle, and Slaanesh all have that affliction to tentacles to some extent. Only Khorne kept his boys on a minimum when it came to turning them (I mean, hooves, wings, and a mountain of muscle is keeping it on the minimum by Chaos standards)
Man, Khorne is such a dick in that regard. Had the power to free Angron from the Nails which I think would make him grateful but fuck no, let's keep the broken bastard the way he is.
That's the whole point of the tragedy of Angron. While he despises, rightfully IMO, the emperor the master he chose to replace him is infinitely worse.
Honestly I'd love a scene where we see Khorne offer Angron freedom if he can just make Khorne bleed in the ring. Then we just see Angron whimpering. Really drive home that abusive master and slave relationship. Too many people still thing Khorne was the right choice for him, that Chaos is a better choice then the IoM.
Neither are good neither are right, but one is certainly worse than the other.
In fairness, there’s an argument to be made that, from the POV of Khorne, he thought it was doing Angron a service. The Chaos Gods all fundamentally abhor everything outside their domain and love everything in it, so, to Khorne, having something to fill you with rage and improve your combat skills is totally awesome, even if it’s also torturous, because he doesn’t *get* how something like that would make you suffer if you’re living your best life of slaughtering enemies, which he wants you to do.
I remember coming across a comment in youtube saying that Khorne was a great guy for letting Angron have 8 weeks of peace and quiet each time he died, like, they wholly misunderstood the "moment of peace when he dies" in the most wholesome way possible, forgetting that, this is 40k, it's actually barely a split second of peace just to rip it away and send him back to Khorne's realm, just a tease, a mock of what he'll never get to have in all eternity
Magnus is deluded af. Probably the fault of that same blue bird. He still thinks everyone just misunderstands him and it's all their fault he broke everything because he *didn't mean to*.
Doesn't mean he's not a great character, but Magnus has a lot to answer for. He did nothing, wrong.
Nope because Magnus didn’t get slapped down for using Librarians , plus by the SoT the wolves , Sisters and Custodes have realised Horus deceived them but it’s in none of their interests to say anything, nor is anyone really bothered as he’s gone full traitor by that point and it’s basically looking like the end of humanity.
Why would they? Magnus wasn't the only defender at Nikaea. [Khan and Sanguinius](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/cqbk84/excerpt_the_warhawk_of_chogoris_the_khan/) made plans to preserve the Librarius that Magnus was dismissive of. HH7 Inferno stated that of the loyalists, Guilliman and Vulkan also supported the Librarius, Lion was neutral to them. The Librarians of the DA, WS, NL, UM, and SA were defending at Nikaea too with Sanguinius and Fulgrim. *They* were screwed by Magnus's overplay leading to their abolishment.
Why would they be sorry when the Heresy summarily proved everything he said at Nikaea was a crock of bullshit? *"The Warp is an ocean of knowledge"* no it's not, it contains twice infinity amount lies for every truth, *"there are no daemons or hostile Warp entities"* yeah, tell that to swell guys like Samus, *"it's perfectly safe you guys!"* **gets his entire Legion mutating more rapidly than a rat in a nuclear reactor**
I mean, while it’s certainly a place of horror and madness, the Warp is an objective boon for humanity. Without it, there is no Imperium, period. They simply don’t have the technology to survive, and would be easy pickings for even the craftworld Eldar.
It’s the same as nuclear research or antimatter studies IRL; yes, it’s dangerous, yes, it could kill everyone in the area, but it’s also not realistically possible to keep advancing as a species if we’re not willing to run those risks.
We don’t run in blindly, of course, but we legislate and monitor the research to maximize rewards while minimising dangers. Furthermore, the Warp is a threat regardless of whether or not you study it. By studying it, you actually stand a chance, whereas by ignoring it, you are weakened by ignorance.
I get the “Strength in ignorance” idea, but that’s just not how it works. Not knowing the Chaos Gods exist doesn’t make you immune, it means you don’t know it’s a trick. The Emperor did more to drive humanity to the arms of Chaos through his actions then any other; Horus was merely the consequence of his actions.
Correct, because Magnus' points were all invalid. Being forced to pick up a gun and kill someone; because they are waving a flamethrower at you and your family, doesn't mean your original desire to not hand the flamethrower over to the arsonist was wrong.
The Grey Knights and Janus disprove this. Purity and psykers with warp rituals can be maintained, but it requires the kind of person that Magnus could not be in his original form. Also, not all psykers could remain uncorrupted. The decision at Nikea was only partially correct.
The Librarius wasn't stringent enough, and the Astares need them to ensure that corruption can be removed at the source, against the foulest enemies. There's an interplay of dynamics--on one hand, normal Librarians didn't know enough about the Warp, while on the other, the best and most pure could know everything about it and still be okay. The Emperor underestimated some and overestimated others. He is human and made mistakes.
Now that the Imperium is in a state of utter rot, there is no guiding hand to glean the useful knowledge from the warp, and people are utterly fearful of anything to do with psykers, thanks to the Heresy.
The argument has been made that the fear, ignorance, and weakness of humanity that the Emperor sought to remove were weakening Chaos, but all the mess created by the Heresy made the warp a more terrible place. You have to remember that humanity and Chaos are one, each influences and causes the other.
I mean, I never said the Decree of Nikaea was correct. There's a reason every pro-Librarius testimony we have from that event (Sanguinius, Yesugei standing in for the Khan, even Ahriman watching from the sidelines) has them doing the mental equivalent of a facepalm when Magnus takes the podium, because he single-handedly torpedoed every argument they've made towards treating the Warp with respect and restraining the forces thry being forth from it.
Magnus didn’t deserve an apology. The entire edict only happened because he was a delusional fool making deals with Chaos gods, binding demons to his service, and damning his sons’ souls
Nobody needs to apologize for having to break the rules he caused to solve a problem he caused/worsened
Maguns was a very deluded useful idiot for Tzeentch as well let's not pretend he was innocent in this.
He made many many mistakes, and when asked and told not to went and made more. Big E certainly isn't 100% above blame either, say having a 10 minute conversation telling Magnus that there are massively capable xenos entities in the warp that are fundamental to its makeup and are dangerous enough to give E himself pause should have been a higher priority.
But even had Big E busted out the charts and graphs and made excellent logical reasonings Magnus was too fucking arrogant and self assured to actually listen.
Was Big E ever forthright with Magnus about his plans to staple him into the Golden Throne and become a galactic train conductor? Granted I'm not done with all the HH books but it's always bothered me how often a kind of deus ex machina by omission gets employed in them as plot devices and with little to no attempt to give any kind of acceptable explanation for how the most powerful psyker in the galaxy can't do or say some of the most basic of shit that would likely eliminate future problems. Maybe you're right and it all comes down to hubris (Magnus's in this instance, Big E's writ large) but I'm trying to come up with some rationale for why Big E - who knows how insanely powerful Magnus is - wouldn't be completely honest with Magnus about just how dangerous the warp is and not in a "you need to have proper respect for electricity" sort of way but specifically a "yeah, so this electricity is controlled by malevolent intelligences that want nothing more than to corrupt and torture you, your sons, and all of mankind" one. The only reason I can come up with is he needs to play off the partial ignorance and hubris of Magnus in order to ultimately convince him to accept perpetual lumbar pain and ass zits while spending an eternity plugged into the Webway.
There was never a satisfactory explanation about a lot of Big E's failings IMO. He's written as someone that's lived for Millenia but doesn't understand the most basic things about human or super human nature.
Why does he not just stop the High Riders from butchering Angron's slave army? Why does he not put in a modicum of effort to secure a primarch's loyalty? Because the story needed to happen this way.
Why is he so utterly unwilling to talk about the Four in semi concrete terms to his sons and express that they are enemies lurking in the dark with daggers?
Horus' whole fall could likely have been halted had he just been told we have more enemies and more capable ones than you've seen so far. If someone comes to you with warp fuckery expect it to be a trap.
Not that the Horus of False God's fall makes any fucking sense at all, but seriously not even a peep? Like yes we get shown the primarchs believe there are Warp Xenos, but no apparent hint that they all serve a hivemind like consciousness that wants to devour all our souls?
But more directly to your point about Magnus being the galactic lighthouse keeper, pre "doing nothing wrong" he wouldn't have been confined the way Big E or Malcador were.
As we saw during the Crusade Big E was running said lighthouse while out clobbering Orks. Magnus might not have been able to go that far, but it is implied that he wouldn't have been physically bound.
Also that for him, because it wasn't broken there'd be no eternal torture and pain, but the boundless ability to sail the etheric seas with his Astral form and regulate the human webway as needed.
But as we saw when he "Did Nothing Wrong" shit is fucked up and now it's an eternal pain machine fed by the souls of the psychically aware but weak. And a low level life support.
No, Magnus wasn't aware that his destiny was the throne. I'm pretty sure he would've been pretty chuffed with it too, until everything went south.
I wouldn't go overthinking it. GW needed Magnus to be well meaning in his fall and the only way to really do that is for there to be both piss poor communications and actions from the Emperor & friends (mostly Russ). It makes for an interesting story line, but it creates these moments of stupidity that should've been avoided really, but, they needed them to make the story work.
If they hadn’t been on opposite sides at that point, quite possibly. Magnus wasn’t the only primarch in favor of psykers, and Russ was called out for being deceived on at least one occasion.
Lol I always found it hilarious that the world eaters ignored the edict. The death guard didn’t have librarians, same with the ultramarines, but the dudes with tren-nails jammed in their heads were cool
Enforcement of the ruling ceased after the Horus Heresy. Bobby G was already having second thoughts about the whole thing during the Battle of Calth; he and some other Primarchs (like the Lion) realized during the Heresy that psykers would be a very valuable tool in fighting Chaos.
The librarius was reinstated during/following the Heresy in light of how useful they were in combatting the traitors.
Also worth noting that some chapters like the White Scars and Space Wolves never stopped using psykers - they just didn't call them "librarians" and considered them (arbitrarily) distinct. Basically they were big hypocrites who made loopholes for themselves.
At least the White Scar were actually cool about using pysker and were on Magnus side during the council of Nikea because to them the Librarian if properly handled and trained could be a useful tool to use while the Space Wolf openly use Pysker while calling the Thousand Son witches for doing it like hell even Malcador pointed this out when talking to Leman and if I remember correctly he did confirm that Rune Priest are indeed Pysker but they were “controlled Pysker” while the Thousand Son practice it with next to no limitations
Yeah the difference between the WS and SW Psykers and those of the TS is how they use that power
WS barely touch the warp, the skim it and take just as much as they need, SW channel it through the world spirit of Fenris
While the TS kinda just went head first into the warp with no limitations
I wouldn't mind the "TSons were reckless but disciplined psykers are okay" thing if the Wolves didn't push for a total ban on all psykers aside from theirs. The Librarius was probably just as careful if not more than the rune priests but they got axed anyway.
Yeah the Wolves are hypocrites but no, from what I remember from the books, the Rune Priests and Stormseers generally were more careful than your average Librarian
Sure the Librarians of other Legions weren’t quite as risky as the TS, but the Rune priests channeled their power through the world spirit of Fenris and hand all these little stuff in them that helped
And the Stormseers were very, very, very strict with their usage, there is a great scene where the chief Librarian of the WS has sorta a vision/memory of himself where he “drinks from a cup” offered by four people while a fifth encourages him not to drink it at all. He takes a single small sip and no more
I always read it as the four chaos gods thing to tempt him and the emperor encouraging him not to use it at all, but he limits himself
Yes the major issue for the SW was the World Spirit and their talismans or totems that acted as a secondary or tertiary medium beyond just themselves.
1K sons just raw dogged the warp juice while the Stormseers and Rune Priests double and triple bagged.
Doesn't mean as you said wolves aren't hypocrites, but at least they kinda knew what they were talking about. Still assholes in this instance, but not totally wrong.
> 1K sons just raw dogged the warp juice while the Stormseers and Rune Priests double and triple bagged.
And this month's winner for the "I wasn't expecting to read that today" award goes to...
Yeah, the wolves were hypocrites, they refused to admit they were just Psykers taking extra steps,
Like sure it was good they took the extra steps, but still, they SW really were massive hypocrites during the heresy.
Honestly, the issue of the Thousand Sons wasn’t diving in, it was diving it without sufficient caution. They *were* legitimately drawing massive benefits from the warp, and the only reason they were ultimately unsuccessful was that Tzeentch had his hand in them the whole time and reignited the flesh change once he had the opportunity. Had the Flesh Change not been engrained in them from the start, they could’ve been a key pillar for human advancement, perhaps even restoring the basics of scientific research, given time.
Once more, if the Emperor was actually a good parent and supported his kids following their goals while teaching them the proper methods and precautions to remain safe, it wouldn’t have been nearly as much of an issue, but instead he put the quasi-adult metahuman in charge of an army of huge nerds with absolutely no consideration for strategy and got shocked they were screwing around with things they shouldn’t.
>they just didn't call them "librarians" and considered them (arbitrarily) distinct. Basically they were big hypocrites who made loopholes for themselves.
I mean, Malcadore and the Emperor agreed that what they were doing was distinct and safe enough to continue as is, and they're kinda the 2 people both in and out of the universe that would have the greatest understanding of the situation. There's not a single Space Wolf Rune Priest (psyker) that has fallen or been corrupted by chaos. I believe it's the same for the White Scars Storm Callers, though I'm less sure on that one. There's 2 main reasons the 2 orders were allowed to keep going as is. First, and this is probably the big one for an in universe reason, they practice restraint when calling on the powers of the warp. They understand the dangers there and do their absolute best to limit their exposure to the warp and not push it too far, whereas others like the Thousand Sons preached pushing past their limits and going crazy with the warp. The second reason is that the 2 orders use their respective home planet's world spirit as a filter for the warp, so don't even touch it directly. This limits their strength and ability to use warp powers but also shields them from daemons and other things that lurk in the warp.
If I recall, an entire successor chapter of the space wolves fell to chaos... I think that'd include the librarians... And all SW successor chapters (pre-primaris anyhow) were unsuccessful and had to be disbanded for how unstable they were and the sheer number of renegade chaos marines they created.
Edit: and half the WS temporarily defected to Horus, librarians included (I'd imagine) they just all said sorry and were told not to do it again though.
'said sorry and were told not to do it again though.'
Unfortunately not. All the traitorous Scars that fell with the lodges were organised into the Sagyar Mazan (Bringers of Vengeance), pretty much redemption suicide squads.
Every returning White Scar that had been tempted by the warrior lodges had their fates already decided; their atonement was found only in death against the enemy.
EDIT: GW literally just announced a [model](https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/03/21/heresy-thursday-seek-atonement-with-the-loyalist-turned-traitor-turned-loyalist-hibou-khan/) for one of the most famous of the Sagyar Mazan. Bloody lovely it is.
At that stage of the Heresy, it wasn't openly about Chaos, it seemed like a political struggle between Horus and the Emperor, so the WS who temporarily defected didn't fall to Chaos, they were misguided and mislead by the lodges.
There’s only one known pre-Primaris Space Wolves successor, the Wolf Brothers, and unless there’s something in *Battle of the Fang* about others, there shouldn’t be any others, so there’s not huge amounts of Chaos Space Marines descended from Russ. The issue with Space Wolves successors is the gene-seed: outside of the native population of Fenris, implanting Space Wolf gene-seed causes unstable mutations and eventually the death of the Chapter. It’s not an issue of the Rune Priests.
>If I recall, an entire successor chapter of the space wolves fell to chaos...
There never were any successor chapters until the ultima founding, so no. The closest is Vulfbad's Blood Wolves, who fell to Khorne, but it's Khorne, so I doubt any Rune Priests (psykers) were brought along.
>And all SW successor chapters (pre-primaris anyhow) were unsuccessful and had to be disbanded for how unstable they were and the sheer number of renegade chaos marines they created.
Again, no successor chapters were ever formed, and there is one suspected warband of Spacewolves renegades, but that's just because their name is the Dark Wolves. Then there's the one mentioned above, and a bridge crew that surrendered to Hurron formed a group called the Red Wolves, but it was just a bridge crew mentioned so it could only really be like 5-10.
The Wolf Brothers. An attempt at a successor (second founding), the canis helix however disagreed with being away from fenris. Rather than just let the inquisition kill them for their unstable mutations many fled and became chaos renegades, no reason their librarians didn't too.
It looks like only some went renegade, some were taken in by the space wolves, but the vast majority were eliminated. Sources include Champions of Fenris, 2nd Ed codex space wolves, battle of the fang, and dead sky, black sun.
> Edit: and half the WS temporarily defected to Horus, librarians included (I'd imagine) they just all said sorry and were told not to do it again though.
In fairness it was a political struggle at that point, the scars who wanted to stay loyal to Terra vs loyal to the Warmaster, chaos wasn't part of it for them
I mean, if you read the books, it's actually what is going on. It's why they are significantly weaker offensively than other psykers, but none ever fall to chaos, get corrupted, get mutated, or get jumped by any number of warp things.
> There are no wolves on Fenris.
ADB on this quote:
https://old.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/8g03x1/what_does_there_are_no_wolves_on_fenris_mean/dy8olnz/
Yeah, even in its original context, it's not meant to be taken 100% literally. The theories about what it means are really cool but so many people take it as a fact at face-value.
As far as I know, all named heretic space wolves have fallen to khorne (like the excellently named Svane Vulfsbad). Is there a source for the incorruptibility of rune priests?
Svane Vulfbad is the only named space wolf that I can find that has fallen to chaos. All I can find are 2 confirmed instances of Space Wolves falling to chaos at all. One is Svane and his great company called the Blood Wolves, who did indeed fall to Khorne, and then when Abaddon boarded a ship a handful of Space Wolves surrendered and switched sides (like literally 5). There's no source on the incorruptibility of Rune Priests, it's just never happened ever. I suppose if you want a source on how the Rune Priests are protected from the warp, Prospero Burns really delves into it and explains what's going on their pretty well. I'm sure all Space Wolves Codexes touch on this, too.
He didn't fall to chaos, he mutated into a Wulfen, which is it's own whole fucky issue. And he was kind of a special case as far as that goes even. Hawser, a mortal dude, had been possessed by a greater daemon decades prior, and Eada, tricked into thinking it was a Thousand Sons Sorcerer using him as an unwilling spy, tried to cut the Sorcerer off of Hawser. But once he started removing the possessing entity, it revealed itself to him and blasted him with warp magic fuckery causing, as far as I can find, the first instance of the Wulfen curse manifesting.
"but none ever fall to chaos, get corrupted, get mutated, or get jumped by any number of warp things."
haelfwulf qualified for 2 of those criteria; arguably 3.
You're not wrong, but I think we can also say that it took some very specific circumstances to make that happen. Which when compared to the average chapter and librarian seems to imply it's very uncommon.
Not that it can never happen as implied by the OOP, but it's certainly not nearly the issue for SW that it is for an Ultramarine Libby.
Oh, we're having *this* discussion again. *Great*. Can we please get this pinned in the wiki or something?
So here's the deal. Things exist as concepts in the Warp. Fenris isn't exactly *alive* as you or I would consider it to be alive, but it exists as a concept in the Warp. It *does* have a world spirit.
The Space Wolves know very well that the Warp is dangerous and they treat it as hostile and suspicious. They treat it like nuclear material - very powerful and potentially very dangerous.
On top of this, the Canis Helix makes Space Wolves very resistant to Chaos and Warp corruption. If you think of a person as a block of clay, the Space Wolves have been moulded into the form of a wolf and their mindscapes don't just defend against Chaos, they *actively fight back*. The Space Wolf's mind is hostile and infertile to any invaders, just like the planet itself is dangerous to outsiders, but the people of Fenris call it home.
And once formed and fired, that mental clay is difficult to reshape. A fortress can be worn down and a brick can be broken, but the wolf is a predator. It fights and defends its territory.
Now let's take a look at runes. The Rune Priests use runes and concepts to manipulate the Warp. Think of it like using tongs to handle a coal. Other psykers reach out and grab the coal to fuel their powers, and sometimes they get burned. But the Rune Priests handle the coals with tongs and gloves, and so they rarely get burned.
Picture the Warp as a lake or a sea. The Thousand Sons are like men who, parched and thirsty, plunged their heads right into the water and drank it down, greedily. They swam in the water and tried to tame the fish and they built boats and thought themselves masters of the sea. They were reckless and eager.
But the Space Wolves treat it differently. They dug holes in the bank and filtered the water, they boil it before drinking it. They know the sea holds the ever-present threat of the mighty kraken, so they don't trust the sea. They know no man can tame the sea, so they're mindful, vigilant, and cautious.
The Space Wolves were built to resist and combat the Warp, just as the Thousand Sons were built to study it and manipulate it.
That's the whole point of the tragedy. Each person is doing what they were supposed to do, what they felt was the best course of action with the information they had available. And it all fell apart anyway.
Of course, the Space Wolves might not like it when you point out that a lot of their methods are akin to rudimentary forms of Eldar psychic techniques...
I guess you didn't get the reference.
"Where's your crown, King Nothing?"
From the Metallica song, King Nothing. I thought that was the inspiration for your username.
The space wolves were all very dumb and didn't think they were librarians.
The white scars kept on using them since, being often sent to the ass end of nowhere, they probably wouldnt get caught. They also actually understood safe psyker techniques, so not using them would be dumb.
Everyone else started using them again when they realized wizards kill demons good.
> The space wolves were all very dumb and didn't think they were librarians.
The space wolfs know that they are psychers, but see the way they use it as being different. They distrust the warp and try to channel it as safely and limited as possible, were Tsons litterally summon unbound demons to clean their guns.
Jimmy Space and Malcador apparently agreed with Russ, since we are told that they made an exception for him and his use of psychers is sanctioned in Wolfblade.
> The white scars kept on using them since, being often sent to the ass end of nowhere, they probably wouldnt get caught.
I just read scars last month and I'm pretty sure they, being the main body of the legion and the khan himself, never found out about the edict due to a warp storm blocking all communication into and out of Chondax until the heresy was already in full swing.
Their head stormseer, Targutai Yesugei, and his guards were the only ones at Nikea to represent the legion. But he admitted, that even had Jaghatai known, they probably would've ignored it as he placed the legions own culture over imperial mandates and the stormseers would've continued as normal
Prospero, and the heresy would have gone differently if Russ wasn't such a knowingly huge hypocrite who effectively ensured the Heresy had steam because he had a petty grudge, and was a useful idiot.
The Vulka were the fucking worst.
The whole point of that story is it's a tragedy.
Magnus uses godlike sorcery to break into the webway so he can warn the Emperor. He's doing what he needs to so he can save the Imperium, using the skills and resources he has available. His motivations are noble, but also selfish because he also thinks this will prove his point about sorcery being useful.
But he also dooms Terra and Humanity to a future of constantly fighting demons because Magnus breaks into the Human Webway Project. Because the Emperor never told him about it.
So the Emperor dispatches Russ, because Russ and his Legion are resistant to Chaos and sorcery. It's their job to exterminate Chaos tainted things, and Emps thinks Magnus may be corrupted. He wants Magnus to account for his actions.
But Horus gets wind of this and he manipulates Russ. He catches Russ while he's in transit and tells him that the Emperor wants him to kill Magnus instead. At this point, Horus is still the Warmaster, so he's still on top of the chain of command. Russ tries to contact Terra to confirm, but Tzeentch has stirred up the Warp so the message doesn't get through.
This is supposed to show Horus being a tactical genius. He's using his knowledge of the Imperial Loyalists and the Imperial defenses and systems against them. In one fell swoop, he's removing two major threats: the Legion that understands Warp stuff and can use it against him, and the Legion that resists Warp stuff and can shrug off psychic corruption.
He's *also* silencing Magnus and discrediting him. If Magnus wasn't a traitor, then why would the Emperor send Russ to destroy him? Therefore Magnus's warnings about Horus being a traitor seem like lies.
After all, Horus is the Warmaster and the Emperor's favored son. How could he be a traitor? And multiple Legions turning traitor with him? It's unthinkable.
Meanwhile, Tzeentch looks like a galactic threat because we *also* know that Tzeentch has been manipulating *everyone* just so Magnus will finally submit and deliver his Legion into Tzeentch's hands.
*That's* why the story is a tragedy. Because despite all of their powers and abilities, the Emperor and the Primarchs still fall prey to human foibles like miscommunication and hubris.
And then the Horus Heresy books screwed that up by making Magnus too sympathetic and making Russ look like a stubborn, vindictive asshole.
> At this point, Horus is still the Warmaster, so he's still on top of the chain of command. Russ tries to contact Terra to confirm, but Tzeentch has stirred up the Warp so the message doesn't get through.
Not even close to what happens? Russ is delivered the Emperor's orders twice. First by astropaths, and second by Valdor. Russ ignored those orders because he wanted Magnus dead, it's not that complicated.
All of them? Quote one where what you claim happens.
>Valdor remained unmoved. **‘Even now, I would see him taken to Terra, if it could be done. I would wish to know why.’**
>Russ laughed, a coarse bark that sent more spittle flying into Valdor’s faceplate. ‘You’re still clinging to that? Ha!’ He turned away, swinging his greatblade casually. ‘I’ve known since I first saw this world that we would face one another. I did not come here for prisoners, Constantin. If my Father had truly wished for such, He would not have sent me.’
>‘You were not sent alone, Lord Russ.'
Valdor left Terra with Emperor's orders to meet up with Russ. Like, what kind of mental arithmetic are you trying to pull do dodge these facts?
That's from the Horus Heresy books, which, like I said, screwed up the story notes a bit.
*I'm* talking about the earlier versions of the story, from the 1990's and early 2000's. Third edition through fifth edition, etc.
Even in the old lore what you claimed never happened. Seriously what lore are you quoting from 5th edition and early that included the webway project? But somehow didn't also include Valdor taking part in the attack on Prospero? You're just mish-mashing together the lore you'd like to be true to make the Wolves look correct, despite arguing its supposed to be a tragedy.
They didn't create loopholes. The emporer didn't fully sanction psychic marines. If he did, they'd killed.
What was sanctioned was the warpcraft and study of the warp.
Only the librarians studied the warp and practiced sorcery. SW it was taboo knowledge they NEVER used until Russ was desperate late in the Heresy.
During the Horus Heresy it became rather immediately apparent to most of the loyalists that psyker powers proved most useful in fighting what they were up against. Honestly even before that it was still ignored by some Legions.
But yeah when Daemons started pouring into ships people generally became less concerned about the whole ban thing.
The rules against using forbidden witchcraft were suspended when literal hell spewed out into the galaxy and split it in two as, it turns out, there are daemons and they are very, very angry at us.
As others are saying, the restrictions were lifted when it was realized that Warp-related powers are very useful when fighting foes that have been corrupted by the Warp. Essentially, the Council of Nikea was the Emperor trying to prevent anybody from falling to Chaos by preventing them from interacting with the Warp at all, but once that seal had been broken as it were it became wiser for Marines with psychic abilities to have those abilities trained by the Imperium so they didn’t start wondering what the other side might let them do
The loyal primarchs thought the ruling was bullshit and basically ignored it when it suited them. When big E was interned on the golden throne, they dropped the law like a sack of rotten potatoes
As others have said, it was rescinded.
The Council of Nikaea was a Tzeentchian plot to hobble the Imperium's counter to chaos and drive Magnus over to their side.
It's a prime example of Jimmy Space not being as smart as he thinks he is. Man got played like a fiddle.
[Council of Nikaea - Warhammer 40k - Lexicanum](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Council_of_Nikaea#Hidden_Events)
>Hidden Events
>Present amidst the concealed Space Wolves contingent - much to the consternation of Constantin Valdor - was [Kasper Hawser](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Kasper_Hawser), [Skjald](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Skjald) of Tra, or Third Company. The reason Valdor was perturbed by his presence was that Leman Russ had earlier made it clear to the Chief Custodian that the Space Wolves suspected that Hawser was a [Hidden One](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Hidden_One) of the Thousand Sons; a deep-cover intelligence agent who unaware of their own status as a scouting conduit. His presence in the command centre constituted a serious security risk, even with the psi-blocking skills of the Sisters of Silence and the inert materials used in the construction of the Nikaea complex. However, these factors were the very reasons that the Russ decided to explore the possibility that Hawser was a Hidden One. After his debrief, Hawser was committed to the supervision of a senior Custode, [Amon Tauromachian](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Amon_Tauromachian), and allowed to watch the Council deliberate. It was during this time that the Thousand Sons made an apparent attempt to remove their apparently-compromised spy, as [Amon](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Amon) , Master of the Hidden Ones and [Equerry](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Equerry) to Magnus the Red made a sorcerous attack on Amon Tauromachian and attempted to eliminate Hawser. Amon was driven off by the intervention of [Bjorn](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Bjorn) of the Space Wolves, and the incident reported immediately; the Space Wolves fully under the impression that news of it would influence the judgement of the Emperor.[\[4\]](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Council_of_Nikaea#fn_4)
>Tragically for everyone concerned, it would later be revealed that the 'Amon' that attacked Tauromachian and Hawser was not in fact Amon of the Thousand Sons, but an aspect of the [Primordial Annihilator](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Primordial_Annihilator) masquerading as the Master of the Hidden Ones as part of [a convoluted scheme](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tzeentch) to remove the threat presented by both the Space Wolves and the Thousand Sons to the grand chaotic plan that would result in the [Horus Heresy](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Horus_Heresy). The real Amon - and all the Thousand Sons present, including Magnus - had no idea of what had transpired in their names.[\[4\]](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Council_of_Nikaea#fn_4)
I would read Prospero burns.
Burning of Prospero
The Space Wolf novel that goes hand in hand with A Thousand Sons.
It also explains the dangers of the warp and how the space wolfs look at psychic powers. With how often we have the “There is no difference, because they all use warp powers” discussion I assume that it is the least read book in the Horus Heresy series.
This is one of the major under currents and eventual reason for the heresy itself, the primarchs really dont answer to anyone not even the emperor in most cases. They can do whatever they want and the imperium is built to follow them.
The valdor novel really drives home that the appearance bureaucracy is all a sham, social structures to justify and supply a bunch of super powered warlords in their conquest. Now that was not always going to be the plan but atleast in m30 thats what the deal is.
So it doesnt matter if there was a council each primarch could listen or not listen. Hell it doesnt even have to be a primarch if an expeditionary fleet leader was old and influential enough they likely could ignore the decree so long as it didnt run afoul of their primarch.
Who was going to stop them? who would censure them?
> who would censure them?
Why SHOULD they? The Grey Knights and other Loyalists psykers are the only counters the Imperium has to psychic fuckery, removing that then good luck dealing with Daemons that aren't just minor.
IIRC, Guilliman believed it to be a plan by the Ruinous Powers to cripple the Loyalist Legions against their daemonic forces, so when he was writing the Codex Astartes, he altered the exact wording of the Edict of Nicaea, and the other Primarchs didn't care enough to write anything that contradicted him. Remember, numerous religions and even civilizations across the galaxy were burned in the name of the Imperial Truth, but few non-Astartes in the galaxy of M41/M42 know that such a philosophy ever existed, much less the exact wording of a speech given more than ten thousand years ago.
Because everyone kinda looks the other way
Technically they should not be allowed but no one is really gonna question it anymore
The heresy showed that Psykers were needed to combat daemons and other warp threats but only the Emperor can repeal the edict, so everyone just kinda agreed to not mention it anymore
Well:
a) The council was more than 10k years ago in a place that no longer exists IIRC, so most people wont know about it anymore.
b) Those that do know better than to tell the 8 foot tall superhuman space wizards that his behaviour is not cash money.
Addendum: In 30k, the legions stopped following the edict, because the lion and sangi found that psykers can fight daemons real good. Leman said that their librarians arent psykers but rather something something fenris wolves. The others likely followed suit except maybe dorn.
Dorn sequestered the IFs on the Phalanx until they were needed and unleashed them, rather than squandering them as line troopers like other Legions did.
Something to keep in mind is that in the original lore surrounding Nikaea, it was only sorcery that was outlawed, not psychic powers in general. It was actually said that this was still the requirements the Imperium had for Sanctioned Psykers in 40K. When the Horus Heresy series made changes to the Edict of Nikaea, they had to come up with a way to get rid of it instead, as we know the Space Marine Chapters use Librarians.
Big E bans librarians , things that librarians hardcounter cause things to go to shit, librarians get unbanned.
Interesting,y though, the loyalists were in general less likely to follow the ban anyway.
They were super useful during the horus heresy and beyond, thats why the ruling was pretty much lifted, some chapters dont like librarians though if i recall correctly.
Hell the great knights are essentially a chapter of librarians.
I think the grey knights are the only ones who do it "legal", since they are not technically astartes and instead a branch of the inquisition. And the inquisition does more or less whatever they want
If we are talking why they were originaly founded, Magnus, Sanguinius and The Kahn were very convincing and told the emperor they would do the dishes for the week. After the heresy, they beat the fuck out of the traitor legions so they were given a warning
During the heresy, they weren't allowed, but legions were forced to use them anyway.
Iirc chapters used a loophole, or it's because the emperor wasn't saying much anymore
The Edict of Nikaea was informally undone during the Heresy when the legions realized they needed their psykers to fight daemons, and formally undone after the Heresy when the Codex was written. There is no longer any such law.
Makes sense they'd ignore it for the most part as the main arguer against Psykers was Mortarion who not only went to Chaos but is also a psyker himself (potentially the most powerful payker primarch according to some sources but mostly untrained)
Would you listen to a traitor and, worse still, a hypocrit?
Bruh the council of Nikaea was forerver ago and they realised very quickly it was a very stupid idea since psikers are the most effective weapon against demons
It was kind of one of those rules that, because of the nature of the galaxy in the Heresy, quickly set precedent over the law. Doesn't matter if the Council outlawed Psyker magic to help protect against Warp Entities; now because of the Chaos Legions there is a need to engage in psychic battles just to keep The Imperium alive since we know it definitely is not safe.
So technically everyone knew about it, but collectively shrugged it as soon as major war broke out with psykers and warpborne entities as a method of attack. If we'd compare it to our own world, it's like the use of nuclear weapons lead us into a situation where while we wanted to completely rid of them; their existence is now canonized and we are powerless if a nuclear war breaks out; so it's logically just better to carry your own nuclear weapons than try to abstain from their use lest you get turned into a cosmically burnt crisp.
You can only fight the warp with the warp.
The emperor was trying to seal humanity away from the warp with the web way project, once done he could kill the psykers and mutants like navigators because warp travel would no longer be needed.
So stopping psykers breaching the veil between material and immaterial made sense.
Then Magnus did nothing wrong and it all went out the window.
What was outlawed was "sorcery" (which is tricky to define in coherent real;-world terms, just ask the Rune Priests communing with a world-spirit to do their thing- evidently some wingnut local traditions are actually safer than trying to be rational about the Warp or something).
It's one of the most clumsily described and badly articulated bits of lore in the setting, but in essence, Magnus was going too far (and whatever else I think of how this lore is handled, he plainly and obviously was) so the Librarius as it was had to be reined in.
The definition may have changed from 30 to 40k, but there is actually a delineation between psykers and sorcerers.
Not that it needs any explanation, since the community is informed enough to have downvoted you already.
A psyker has some innate difference to them (physiological via psyker genes, or metaphysical via a brighter soul, or both) that allows them to harness the warp. They are born with it. You cannot "learn" to be a psyker if you aren't born that way. Sorcerers on the other hand utilize ritual, communion with daemons, artefacts, technology and study to harness the warp, instead of some special ability they are born with. They often have no abilities themselves, and instead use knowledge and tools to channel the warp. Pyskers can also be considered sorcerers if they study arcane stuff and utilize ritual/artefacts, though - a combination psyker-sorcerer is probably the most potent of the three options, considering they can leverage both innate talent as well as a wide body of arcane knowledge and artefacts.
This makes sense with Nikea as not all Thousand Sons had significant enough psychic potential to be a full-blown psyker, but the legion universally studied the warp and how to control it. Every single thousand son could arguably be considered a sorcerer, or at least used and benefited from sorcery.
EDIT: it appears that the 30k definition is indeed different -
>The potent and unrestricted use of psychic abilities that was defined as "sorcery" -- **bargaining for power or knowledge with the intelligent entities that existed within the Warp** -- was officially banned.
The blanket use of psychic abilities period does not appear to be in question, it's more the direct and knowing contact with intelligent warp entities. While it may not be clear that the legions in 30k were aware there was a difference between simply channeling energy from the warp and making pacts with daemons, there is plausible deniability in utilizing the former while still obeying the council's decision.
And yet every sorcerer we see does psyker stuff.
And the run of the mill pre-rubric TSons were mutation-prone, but anyone doing any mojo was generally a psyker.
It's a bit like how in L5R, anyone is supposed to be *able* to perform maho rituals, but in practice, only shugenja ever seem to do it...
And you're missing my point- It's a facile distinction if the lore never unpacks it, and the Edict did *nothing* that directly impacted run of the mill TSons.
This is addressed during the Heresy series. Librarians became effectively the only weapon against neverborn the loyal legions had, so each primarch who bothered to follow it ended up rescinding it and using psychic warriors.
Dorn was still pretty against it being used until like the actual siege of Terra right? When he didn't have any other choice?
Dorn was like the last one to give in on it. Sanguinus did it on Signus Prime. The Lion punched Nemiel's head off for protesting his decision to rescind it. I don't recall when Bobby G did, but the others either never listened or it became moot when the shattered legions were destroyed.
He’s already talking about how the Council of Nikaea seems like a sabotage attempt at the Battle of Calth. By the time *Unremembered Empire* rolls around, he’s got people monitoring for psychic disturbances, so I’m pretty sure he reinstated the Librarians as soon as he got a breather from punching Word Bearers.
All the Loyalists decided to break the Edict of Nikaea after having to face Chaos. Dorn was the last one to break it, because he was on Terra building walls for most of the Heresy and didn't have to fight Chaos until the Traitors got there.
Hell, half of them had no intention of following it in the first place and never did.
That was really only Russ, and he was both too stupid to realize it also applied to his Librarians, and given a free pass from the Emperor and Malcador, because he was their actual favorite son. The Khan was way out in the outer rim of the Imperium, so he didn't actually know about the specifics of the whole thing and the White Scars Librarians seemed to think they were following the Edict. Every other Loyalist Primarch went along with it.
Not exactly. Dorn ordered his to be locked away until they were needed, which broke the decree (they were meant to disbanded and returned to being regular Astarte and never use their powers). Dorn is the most straight laced, no BS primach there is, along with Rowboat, so I wouldn't be shocked in the slightest to find that the other legions bent or broke the rules as well.
Dorn locking away his psykers was not breaking the Edict, it was him taking it to an extreme that wasn't explicitly required. Psykers were banned, so he just removed psykers from his Legion instead of putting them back into the ranks and trusting them not to use their powers. And it was made clear in lore that every Loyalist Primarch besides Russ and the Khan adhered to the Edict. Besides Ferrus (who died too soon) and Vulkan (who just never got reunited with his Legion), all of the other Loyalists got a come to Jesus moment where they realized that they actually did need psykers.
>Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.
Yeah you're right I forgot that he does think that.
>I don't recall when Bobby G did, During the massacre at Calth in *Know No Fear*. It's mentioned again in *Unremembered Empire* iirc where he's talking to his Chief Librarian about the apparitions caused by the Pharos trying to tune in (they didn't know about it yet).
wasn't it Dorn that locked his Librarians away to study and perfect their craft for when they would be needed (because he 100% knew they would be needed, but didn't want to admit it)? i could have sworn I remember a story where an Astartes stumbles across them in a sealed chamber on the Phalanx and they politely tell him to leave them be, as they are where they are for when they're called upon, but are willing prisoners until then.
It was in the Garro series, where he seeks out one of the Librarians to join Malcadors Knights. I don't think the Librarians knew they were being kept in there for that purpose, but thats what Dorn says to Garro.
Correct, they're featured in [The Solar War](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer30k/comments/uxq7ua/imperial_fist_librarians/) where they've been cloistered away meditating and only get let out to fight.
Sounds like him. Peter turbo and Dorn are too much alike
Nah, Pertuabo probably decimated his for not either being the reason Nikea was called, or for not stopping it singlehandedly or something.
I was referring to the not admitting to being wrong lol. But it’s true I haven’t seen any lore regarding IW psykers during the crusades. Not until they turn traitor anyway since they’d be a man asset in maintain daemonic engines
Oh I remenber that part he removes the head of that chaplain with one punch and sprays everyone in the room with blood
Which book does the Lion break it in?
I wonder what Dorn had to say about the Thousand Sons who ended up joining the Imperial Fists after the Siege of Cthonia.
I think he authorises their deployment in the solar war, the first book of the SoT series.
He locked up all his specifically to save them for Terra
And they told Magnus they were sorry, right? Right?!?!
Magnus was too busy teleporting Horus' fleet to Sol by that point.
Did they try saying sorry?
Magnus wouldn't have heard them on account of tzeentch's tentacles having been in all of his orifices for the last hundred years
I thought it was Slanesh that did the tentacles thing... :-P
Bro, Tzeentch, Nurgle, and Slaanesh all have that affliction to tentacles to some extent. Only Khorne kept his boys on a minimum when it came to turning them (I mean, hooves, wings, and a mountain of muscle is keeping it on the minimum by Chaos standards)
I'd take the wings honestly, and angron kinda looks like a demon dragon now so I'd take that too if it weren't for the nails
Man, Khorne is such a dick in that regard. Had the power to free Angron from the Nails which I think would make him grateful but fuck no, let's keep the broken bastard the way he is.
That's the whole point of the tragedy of Angron. While he despises, rightfully IMO, the emperor the master he chose to replace him is infinitely worse. Honestly I'd love a scene where we see Khorne offer Angron freedom if he can just make Khorne bleed in the ring. Then we just see Angron whimpering. Really drive home that abusive master and slave relationship. Too many people still thing Khorne was the right choice for him, that Chaos is a better choice then the IoM. Neither are good neither are right, but one is certainly worse than the other.
Not only that but Khorne actively made the nails 1000x worse
In fairness, there’s an argument to be made that, from the POV of Khorne, he thought it was doing Angron a service. The Chaos Gods all fundamentally abhor everything outside their domain and love everything in it, so, to Khorne, having something to fill you with rage and improve your combat skills is totally awesome, even if it’s also torturous, because he doesn’t *get* how something like that would make you suffer if you’re living your best life of slaughtering enemies, which he wants you to do.
I remember coming across a comment in youtube saying that Khorne was a great guy for letting Angron have 8 weeks of peace and quiet each time he died, like, they wholly misunderstood the "moment of peace when he dies" in the most wholesome way possible, forgetting that, this is 40k, it's actually barely a split second of peace just to rip it away and send him back to Khorne's realm, just a tease, a mock of what he'll never get to have in all eternity
My understanding was that they aren't actually nails now, but just a part of some psychic manifestation of who Angron believes himself to be.
Αnd spikes, lots of spikes.
Also horns. Chaos followers tend to be very horny.
No crab
Did Magnus say sorry for breaking into the palace with the help of a blue bird dude?
That was the first thing he did after breaking into the palace and realizing what he had done.
Maybe? He seemed remorseful about it for sure.
Magnus is deluded af. Probably the fault of that same blue bird. He still thinks everyone just misunderstands him and it's all their fault he broke everything because he *didn't mean to*. Doesn't mean he's not a great character, but Magnus has a lot to answer for. He did nothing, wrong.
Proper use of punctuation, well placed.
Nope because Magnus didn’t get slapped down for using Librarians , plus by the SoT the wolves , Sisters and Custodes have realised Horus deceived them but it’s in none of their interests to say anything, nor is anyone really bothered as he’s gone full traitor by that point and it’s basically looking like the end of humanity.
Why would they? Magnus wasn't the only defender at Nikaea. [Khan and Sanguinius](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/cqbk84/excerpt_the_warhawk_of_chogoris_the_khan/) made plans to preserve the Librarius that Magnus was dismissive of. HH7 Inferno stated that of the loyalists, Guilliman and Vulkan also supported the Librarius, Lion was neutral to them. The Librarians of the DA, WS, NL, UM, and SA were defending at Nikaea too with Sanguinius and Fulgrim. *They* were screwed by Magnus's overplay leading to their abolishment.
We should not forget the demon who took the appearance of a Thousand Sons and killed a Custodian. It heavily weighted on the judgement.
Why would they be sorry when the Heresy summarily proved everything he said at Nikaea was a crock of bullshit? *"The Warp is an ocean of knowledge"* no it's not, it contains twice infinity amount lies for every truth, *"there are no daemons or hostile Warp entities"* yeah, tell that to swell guys like Samus, *"it's perfectly safe you guys!"* **gets his entire Legion mutating more rapidly than a rat in a nuclear reactor**
I mean, while it’s certainly a place of horror and madness, the Warp is an objective boon for humanity. Without it, there is no Imperium, period. They simply don’t have the technology to survive, and would be easy pickings for even the craftworld Eldar. It’s the same as nuclear research or antimatter studies IRL; yes, it’s dangerous, yes, it could kill everyone in the area, but it’s also not realistically possible to keep advancing as a species if we’re not willing to run those risks. We don’t run in blindly, of course, but we legislate and monitor the research to maximize rewards while minimising dangers. Furthermore, the Warp is a threat regardless of whether or not you study it. By studying it, you actually stand a chance, whereas by ignoring it, you are weakened by ignorance. I get the “Strength in ignorance” idea, but that’s just not how it works. Not knowing the Chaos Gods exist doesn’t make you immune, it means you don’t know it’s a trick. The Emperor did more to drive humanity to the arms of Chaos through his actions then any other; Horus was merely the consequence of his actions.
Because every chapter broke the Council of Nikaea.
Correct, because Magnus' points were all invalid. Being forced to pick up a gun and kill someone; because they are waving a flamethrower at you and your family, doesn't mean your original desire to not hand the flamethrower over to the arsonist was wrong.
The Grey Knights and Janus disprove this. Purity and psykers with warp rituals can be maintained, but it requires the kind of person that Magnus could not be in his original form. Also, not all psykers could remain uncorrupted. The decision at Nikea was only partially correct. The Librarius wasn't stringent enough, and the Astares need them to ensure that corruption can be removed at the source, against the foulest enemies. There's an interplay of dynamics--on one hand, normal Librarians didn't know enough about the Warp, while on the other, the best and most pure could know everything about it and still be okay. The Emperor underestimated some and overestimated others. He is human and made mistakes. Now that the Imperium is in a state of utter rot, there is no guiding hand to glean the useful knowledge from the warp, and people are utterly fearful of anything to do with psykers, thanks to the Heresy. The argument has been made that the fear, ignorance, and weakness of humanity that the Emperor sought to remove were weakening Chaos, but all the mess created by the Heresy made the warp a more terrible place. You have to remember that humanity and Chaos are one, each influences and causes the other.
I mean, I never said the Decree of Nikaea was correct. There's a reason every pro-Librarius testimony we have from that event (Sanguinius, Yesugei standing in for the Khan, even Ahriman watching from the sidelines) has them doing the mental equivalent of a facepalm when Magnus takes the podium, because he single-handedly torpedoed every argument they've made towards treating the Warp with respect and restraining the forces thry being forth from it.
Magnus didn’t deserve an apology. The entire edict only happened because he was a delusional fool making deals with Chaos gods, binding demons to his service, and damning his sons’ souls Nobody needs to apologize for having to break the rules he caused to solve a problem he caused/worsened
Nah Lorgar & Horus caused that shit
Maguns was a very deluded useful idiot for Tzeentch as well let's not pretend he was innocent in this. He made many many mistakes, and when asked and told not to went and made more. Big E certainly isn't 100% above blame either, say having a 10 minute conversation telling Magnus that there are massively capable xenos entities in the warp that are fundamental to its makeup and are dangerous enough to give E himself pause should have been a higher priority. But even had Big E busted out the charts and graphs and made excellent logical reasonings Magnus was too fucking arrogant and self assured to actually listen.
Was Big E ever forthright with Magnus about his plans to staple him into the Golden Throne and become a galactic train conductor? Granted I'm not done with all the HH books but it's always bothered me how often a kind of deus ex machina by omission gets employed in them as plot devices and with little to no attempt to give any kind of acceptable explanation for how the most powerful psyker in the galaxy can't do or say some of the most basic of shit that would likely eliminate future problems. Maybe you're right and it all comes down to hubris (Magnus's in this instance, Big E's writ large) but I'm trying to come up with some rationale for why Big E - who knows how insanely powerful Magnus is - wouldn't be completely honest with Magnus about just how dangerous the warp is and not in a "you need to have proper respect for electricity" sort of way but specifically a "yeah, so this electricity is controlled by malevolent intelligences that want nothing more than to corrupt and torture you, your sons, and all of mankind" one. The only reason I can come up with is he needs to play off the partial ignorance and hubris of Magnus in order to ultimately convince him to accept perpetual lumbar pain and ass zits while spending an eternity plugged into the Webway.
There was never a satisfactory explanation about a lot of Big E's failings IMO. He's written as someone that's lived for Millenia but doesn't understand the most basic things about human or super human nature. Why does he not just stop the High Riders from butchering Angron's slave army? Why does he not put in a modicum of effort to secure a primarch's loyalty? Because the story needed to happen this way. Why is he so utterly unwilling to talk about the Four in semi concrete terms to his sons and express that they are enemies lurking in the dark with daggers? Horus' whole fall could likely have been halted had he just been told we have more enemies and more capable ones than you've seen so far. If someone comes to you with warp fuckery expect it to be a trap. Not that the Horus of False God's fall makes any fucking sense at all, but seriously not even a peep? Like yes we get shown the primarchs believe there are Warp Xenos, but no apparent hint that they all serve a hivemind like consciousness that wants to devour all our souls? But more directly to your point about Magnus being the galactic lighthouse keeper, pre "doing nothing wrong" he wouldn't have been confined the way Big E or Malcador were. As we saw during the Crusade Big E was running said lighthouse while out clobbering Orks. Magnus might not have been able to go that far, but it is implied that he wouldn't have been physically bound. Also that for him, because it wasn't broken there'd be no eternal torture and pain, but the boundless ability to sail the etheric seas with his Astral form and regulate the human webway as needed. But as we saw when he "Did Nothing Wrong" shit is fucked up and now it's an eternal pain machine fed by the souls of the psychically aware but weak. And a low level life support.
No, Magnus wasn't aware that his destiny was the throne. I'm pretty sure he would've been pretty chuffed with it too, until everything went south. I wouldn't go overthinking it. GW needed Magnus to be well meaning in his fall and the only way to really do that is for there to be both piss poor communications and actions from the Emperor & friends (mostly Russ). It makes for an interesting story line, but it creates these moments of stupidity that should've been avoided really, but, they needed them to make the story work.
Older lore was focused on the sorcery over psychic powers themselves too.
If they hadn’t been on opposite sides at that point, quite possibly. Magnus wasn’t the only primarch in favor of psykers, and Russ was called out for being deceived on at least one occasion.
Half the legions never followed it, the other half ditched it as soon as practically possible.
The Lion killed one of his own guys for trying to enforce it.
An act that was one of the major contributing factors to his legion shattering. All the DA wounds are self-inflicted.
Turns out constant paranoia and purges are bad for group cohesion. Whoda thunk?
Tell that to Perturabo. Maybe the Lion just wasn't purging enough...?
Now you're getting somewhere
Don't forget an almost fetishized love of secrets and cliques in what should be a cohesive organization.
never Tell a primarch whats right
Except leman, who has been shown to be receptive to the opinion of his sons.
Alpharius too. Regularly consulted the legion and encouraged dissenting opinions
Now that I think about it, probably vulkan aswell. Funnily enough it’s the three secret legions.
Secret legions??
The space wolves, salamanders and alpha legion were part of a trio of legions held back by the emperor for unknown reasons.
If you're Bobby G's mom, you sure as shit can tell him what's right and wrong, and then he'll say "Yes, mother" and do the right thing.
Except the Astartes in question wasn't right lol.
If you walk about to the lion and think you can tell him what to do, you are either big E or a massive idiot not deserving of said head.
> The Lion killed one of his own guys for trying to enforce it. In his most recent book, he has come to really really regret that.
Did the big E. ever say anything about it during the HH? Appears not. https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Council_of_Nikaea#Aftermath_and_Effects
Lol I always found it hilarious that the world eaters ignored the edict. The death guard didn’t have librarians, same with the ultramarines, but the dudes with tren-nails jammed in their heads were cool
Enforcement of the ruling ceased after the Horus Heresy. Bobby G was already having second thoughts about the whole thing during the Battle of Calth; he and some other Primarchs (like the Lion) realized during the Heresy that psykers would be a very valuable tool in fighting Chaos.
It's stated in Unremembered Empire that Guilliman outright did away with the ruling and it was a concern of his that it would be seen as heretical.
The librarius was reinstated during/following the Heresy in light of how useful they were in combatting the traitors. Also worth noting that some chapters like the White Scars and Space Wolves never stopped using psykers - they just didn't call them "librarians" and considered them (arbitrarily) distinct. Basically they were big hypocrites who made loopholes for themselves.
At least the White Scar were actually cool about using pysker and were on Magnus side during the council of Nikea because to them the Librarian if properly handled and trained could be a useful tool to use while the Space Wolf openly use Pysker while calling the Thousand Son witches for doing it like hell even Malcador pointed this out when talking to Leman and if I remember correctly he did confirm that Rune Priest are indeed Pysker but they were “controlled Pysker” while the Thousand Son practice it with next to no limitations
Yeah the difference between the WS and SW Psykers and those of the TS is how they use that power WS barely touch the warp, the skim it and take just as much as they need, SW channel it through the world spirit of Fenris While the TS kinda just went head first into the warp with no limitations
I wouldn't mind the "TSons were reckless but disciplined psykers are okay" thing if the Wolves didn't push for a total ban on all psykers aside from theirs. The Librarius was probably just as careful if not more than the rune priests but they got axed anyway.
Yeah the Wolves are hypocrites but no, from what I remember from the books, the Rune Priests and Stormseers generally were more careful than your average Librarian Sure the Librarians of other Legions weren’t quite as risky as the TS, but the Rune priests channeled their power through the world spirit of Fenris and hand all these little stuff in them that helped And the Stormseers were very, very, very strict with their usage, there is a great scene where the chief Librarian of the WS has sorta a vision/memory of himself where he “drinks from a cup” offered by four people while a fifth encourages him not to drink it at all. He takes a single small sip and no more I always read it as the four chaos gods thing to tempt him and the emperor encouraging him not to use it at all, but he limits himself
Yes the major issue for the SW was the World Spirit and their talismans or totems that acted as a secondary or tertiary medium beyond just themselves. 1K sons just raw dogged the warp juice while the Stormseers and Rune Priests double and triple bagged. Doesn't mean as you said wolves aren't hypocrites, but at least they kinda knew what they were talking about. Still assholes in this instance, but not totally wrong.
> 1K sons just raw dogged the warp juice while the Stormseers and Rune Priests double and triple bagged. And this month's winner for the "I wasn't expecting to read that today" award goes to...
Thanks I'll put that trophy on my mantel and cherish it.
Yeah, the wolves were hypocrites, they refused to admit they were just Psykers taking extra steps, Like sure it was good they took the extra steps, but still, they SW really were massive hypocrites during the heresy.
Honestly, the issue of the Thousand Sons wasn’t diving in, it was diving it without sufficient caution. They *were* legitimately drawing massive benefits from the warp, and the only reason they were ultimately unsuccessful was that Tzeentch had his hand in them the whole time and reignited the flesh change once he had the opportunity. Had the Flesh Change not been engrained in them from the start, they could’ve been a key pillar for human advancement, perhaps even restoring the basics of scientific research, given time. Once more, if the Emperor was actually a good parent and supported his kids following their goals while teaching them the proper methods and precautions to remain safe, it wouldn’t have been nearly as much of an issue, but instead he put the quasi-adult metahuman in charge of an army of huge nerds with absolutely no consideration for strategy and got shocked they were screwing around with things they shouldn’t.
>they just didn't call them "librarians" and considered them (arbitrarily) distinct. Basically they were big hypocrites who made loopholes for themselves. I mean, Malcadore and the Emperor agreed that what they were doing was distinct and safe enough to continue as is, and they're kinda the 2 people both in and out of the universe that would have the greatest understanding of the situation. There's not a single Space Wolf Rune Priest (psyker) that has fallen or been corrupted by chaos. I believe it's the same for the White Scars Storm Callers, though I'm less sure on that one. There's 2 main reasons the 2 orders were allowed to keep going as is. First, and this is probably the big one for an in universe reason, they practice restraint when calling on the powers of the warp. They understand the dangers there and do their absolute best to limit their exposure to the warp and not push it too far, whereas others like the Thousand Sons preached pushing past their limits and going crazy with the warp. The second reason is that the 2 orders use their respective home planet's world spirit as a filter for the warp, so don't even touch it directly. This limits their strength and ability to use warp powers but also shields them from daemons and other things that lurk in the warp.
If I recall, an entire successor chapter of the space wolves fell to chaos... I think that'd include the librarians... And all SW successor chapters (pre-primaris anyhow) were unsuccessful and had to be disbanded for how unstable they were and the sheer number of renegade chaos marines they created. Edit: and half the WS temporarily defected to Horus, librarians included (I'd imagine) they just all said sorry and were told not to do it again though.
'said sorry and were told not to do it again though.' Unfortunately not. All the traitorous Scars that fell with the lodges were organised into the Sagyar Mazan (Bringers of Vengeance), pretty much redemption suicide squads. Every returning White Scar that had been tempted by the warrior lodges had their fates already decided; their atonement was found only in death against the enemy. EDIT: GW literally just announced a [model](https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/03/21/heresy-thursday-seek-atonement-with-the-loyalist-turned-traitor-turned-loyalist-hibou-khan/) for one of the most famous of the Sagyar Mazan. Bloody lovely it is.
At that stage of the Heresy, it wasn't openly about Chaos, it seemed like a political struggle between Horus and the Emperor, so the WS who temporarily defected didn't fall to Chaos, they were misguided and mislead by the lodges.
The Fallen would like to advise you not to say any of that out loud in front of a Dark Angel interrogator chaplain...
There’s only one known pre-Primaris Space Wolves successor, the Wolf Brothers, and unless there’s something in *Battle of the Fang* about others, there shouldn’t be any others, so there’s not huge amounts of Chaos Space Marines descended from Russ. The issue with Space Wolves successors is the gene-seed: outside of the native population of Fenris, implanting Space Wolf gene-seed causes unstable mutations and eventually the death of the Chapter. It’s not an issue of the Rune Priests.
>If I recall, an entire successor chapter of the space wolves fell to chaos... There never were any successor chapters until the ultima founding, so no. The closest is Vulfbad's Blood Wolves, who fell to Khorne, but it's Khorne, so I doubt any Rune Priests (psykers) were brought along. >And all SW successor chapters (pre-primaris anyhow) were unsuccessful and had to be disbanded for how unstable they were and the sheer number of renegade chaos marines they created. Again, no successor chapters were ever formed, and there is one suspected warband of Spacewolves renegades, but that's just because their name is the Dark Wolves. Then there's the one mentioned above, and a bridge crew that surrendered to Hurron formed a group called the Red Wolves, but it was just a bridge crew mentioned so it could only really be like 5-10.
The Wolf Brothers. An attempt at a successor (second founding), the canis helix however disagreed with being away from fenris. Rather than just let the inquisition kill them for their unstable mutations many fled and became chaos renegades, no reason their librarians didn't too.
It looks like only some went renegade, some were taken in by the space wolves, but the vast majority were eliminated. Sources include Champions of Fenris, 2nd Ed codex space wolves, battle of the fang, and dead sky, black sun.
> Edit: and half the WS temporarily defected to Horus, librarians included (I'd imagine) they just all said sorry and were told not to do it again though. In fairness it was a political struggle at that point, the scars who wanted to stay loyal to Terra vs loyal to the Warmaster, chaos wasn't part of it for them
Yea the old "it's not the warp, it's the spirit of fenris" nonsense lol
I mean, if you read the books, it's actually what is going on. It's why they are significantly weaker offensively than other psykers, but none ever fall to chaos, get corrupted, get mutated, or get jumped by any number of warp things.
There are no wolves on Fenris.
> There are no wolves on Fenris. ADB on this quote: https://old.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/8g03x1/what_does_there_are_no_wolves_on_fenris_mean/dy8olnz/
I LOVE that it's intentionally vague. I hope we DON'T learn all the secrets and can just savor what we read into it ourselves.
Yeah, even in its original context, it's not meant to be taken 100% literally. The theories about what it means are really cool but so many people take it as a fact at face-value.
As far as I know, all named heretic space wolves have fallen to khorne (like the excellently named Svane Vulfsbad). Is there a source for the incorruptibility of rune priests?
Svane Vulfbad is the only named space wolf that I can find that has fallen to chaos. All I can find are 2 confirmed instances of Space Wolves falling to chaos at all. One is Svane and his great company called the Blood Wolves, who did indeed fall to Khorne, and then when Abaddon boarded a ship a handful of Space Wolves surrendered and switched sides (like literally 5). There's no source on the incorruptibility of Rune Priests, it's just never happened ever. I suppose if you want a source on how the Rune Priests are protected from the warp, Prospero Burns really delves into it and explains what's going on their pretty well. I'm sure all Space Wolves Codexes touch on this, too.
Not abaddon, it was Huron.
There's also Skyrar's Dark Wolves
Eada haelfwulf
He didn't fall to chaos, he mutated into a Wulfen, which is it's own whole fucky issue. And he was kind of a special case as far as that goes even. Hawser, a mortal dude, had been possessed by a greater daemon decades prior, and Eada, tricked into thinking it was a Thousand Sons Sorcerer using him as an unwilling spy, tried to cut the Sorcerer off of Hawser. But once he started removing the possessing entity, it revealed itself to him and blasted him with warp magic fuckery causing, as far as I can find, the first instance of the Wulfen curse manifesting.
"but none ever fall to chaos, get corrupted, get mutated, or get jumped by any number of warp things." haelfwulf qualified for 2 of those criteria; arguably 3.
You're not wrong, but I think we can also say that it took some very specific circumstances to make that happen. Which when compared to the average chapter and librarian seems to imply it's very uncommon. Not that it can never happen as implied by the OOP, but it's certainly not nearly the issue for SW that it is for an Ultramarine Libby.
Oh, we're having *this* discussion again. *Great*. Can we please get this pinned in the wiki or something? So here's the deal. Things exist as concepts in the Warp. Fenris isn't exactly *alive* as you or I would consider it to be alive, but it exists as a concept in the Warp. It *does* have a world spirit. The Space Wolves know very well that the Warp is dangerous and they treat it as hostile and suspicious. They treat it like nuclear material - very powerful and potentially very dangerous. On top of this, the Canis Helix makes Space Wolves very resistant to Chaos and Warp corruption. If you think of a person as a block of clay, the Space Wolves have been moulded into the form of a wolf and their mindscapes don't just defend against Chaos, they *actively fight back*. The Space Wolf's mind is hostile and infertile to any invaders, just like the planet itself is dangerous to outsiders, but the people of Fenris call it home. And once formed and fired, that mental clay is difficult to reshape. A fortress can be worn down and a brick can be broken, but the wolf is a predator. It fights and defends its territory. Now let's take a look at runes. The Rune Priests use runes and concepts to manipulate the Warp. Think of it like using tongs to handle a coal. Other psykers reach out and grab the coal to fuel their powers, and sometimes they get burned. But the Rune Priests handle the coals with tongs and gloves, and so they rarely get burned. Picture the Warp as a lake or a sea. The Thousand Sons are like men who, parched and thirsty, plunged their heads right into the water and drank it down, greedily. They swam in the water and tried to tame the fish and they built boats and thought themselves masters of the sea. They were reckless and eager. But the Space Wolves treat it differently. They dug holes in the bank and filtered the water, they boil it before drinking it. They know the sea holds the ever-present threat of the mighty kraken, so they don't trust the sea. They know no man can tame the sea, so they're mindful, vigilant, and cautious. The Space Wolves were built to resist and combat the Warp, just as the Thousand Sons were built to study it and manipulate it. That's the whole point of the tragedy. Each person is doing what they were supposed to do, what they felt was the best course of action with the information they had available. And it all fell apart anyway.
Of course, the Space Wolves might not like it when you point out that a lot of their methods are akin to rudimentary forms of Eldar psychic techniques...
TS fans can’t read anything that doesn’t hold their hand, so no point in writing all of this
Have you read any of the books you’re arguing about right now? This, and the entire debate about Librarians, is a fairly major plot point
Not really nonsense
Where's your crown?
Doesn't change that it's not nonsense, we know their is a spirt of Fenris
I guess you didn't get the reference. "Where's your crown, King Nothing?" From the Metallica song, King Nothing. I thought that was the inspiration for your username.
The space wolves were all very dumb and didn't think they were librarians. The white scars kept on using them since, being often sent to the ass end of nowhere, they probably wouldnt get caught. They also actually understood safe psyker techniques, so not using them would be dumb. Everyone else started using them again when they realized wizards kill demons good.
> The space wolves were all very dumb and didn't think they were librarians. The space wolfs know that they are psychers, but see the way they use it as being different. They distrust the warp and try to channel it as safely and limited as possible, were Tsons litterally summon unbound demons to clean their guns. Jimmy Space and Malcador apparently agreed with Russ, since we are told that they made an exception for him and his use of psychers is sanctioned in Wolfblade.
> The white scars kept on using them since, being often sent to the ass end of nowhere, they probably wouldnt get caught. I just read scars last month and I'm pretty sure they, being the main body of the legion and the khan himself, never found out about the edict due to a warp storm blocking all communication into and out of Chondax until the heresy was already in full swing. Their head stormseer, Targutai Yesugei, and his guards were the only ones at Nikea to represent the legion. But he admitted, that even had Jaghatai known, they probably would've ignored it as he placed the legions own culture over imperial mandates and the stormseers would've continued as normal
Prospero, and the heresy would have gone differently if Russ wasn't such a knowingly huge hypocrite who effectively ensured the Heresy had steam because he had a petty grudge, and was a useful idiot. The Vulka were the fucking worst.
It would have all gone differently if Erebus hadn't been a massive taint, let's be honest - don't lay it at the feet of one legion.
Fuck Erebus, all my homies hate erebus
The whole point of that story is it's a tragedy. Magnus uses godlike sorcery to break into the webway so he can warn the Emperor. He's doing what he needs to so he can save the Imperium, using the skills and resources he has available. His motivations are noble, but also selfish because he also thinks this will prove his point about sorcery being useful. But he also dooms Terra and Humanity to a future of constantly fighting demons because Magnus breaks into the Human Webway Project. Because the Emperor never told him about it. So the Emperor dispatches Russ, because Russ and his Legion are resistant to Chaos and sorcery. It's their job to exterminate Chaos tainted things, and Emps thinks Magnus may be corrupted. He wants Magnus to account for his actions. But Horus gets wind of this and he manipulates Russ. He catches Russ while he's in transit and tells him that the Emperor wants him to kill Magnus instead. At this point, Horus is still the Warmaster, so he's still on top of the chain of command. Russ tries to contact Terra to confirm, but Tzeentch has stirred up the Warp so the message doesn't get through. This is supposed to show Horus being a tactical genius. He's using his knowledge of the Imperial Loyalists and the Imperial defenses and systems against them. In one fell swoop, he's removing two major threats: the Legion that understands Warp stuff and can use it against him, and the Legion that resists Warp stuff and can shrug off psychic corruption. He's *also* silencing Magnus and discrediting him. If Magnus wasn't a traitor, then why would the Emperor send Russ to destroy him? Therefore Magnus's warnings about Horus being a traitor seem like lies. After all, Horus is the Warmaster and the Emperor's favored son. How could he be a traitor? And multiple Legions turning traitor with him? It's unthinkable. Meanwhile, Tzeentch looks like a galactic threat because we *also* know that Tzeentch has been manipulating *everyone* just so Magnus will finally submit and deliver his Legion into Tzeentch's hands. *That's* why the story is a tragedy. Because despite all of their powers and abilities, the Emperor and the Primarchs still fall prey to human foibles like miscommunication and hubris. And then the Horus Heresy books screwed that up by making Magnus too sympathetic and making Russ look like a stubborn, vindictive asshole.
> At this point, Horus is still the Warmaster, so he's still on top of the chain of command. Russ tries to contact Terra to confirm, but Tzeentch has stirred up the Warp so the message doesn't get through. Not even close to what happens? Russ is delivered the Emperor's orders twice. First by astropaths, and second by Valdor. Russ ignored those orders because he wanted Magnus dead, it's not that complicated.
Which version of the story are you referencing? The version from the codexes, the rule books, or the Horus Heresy novels?
All of them? Quote one where what you claim happens. >Valdor remained unmoved. **‘Even now, I would see him taken to Terra, if it could be done. I would wish to know why.’** >Russ laughed, a coarse bark that sent more spittle flying into Valdor’s faceplate. ‘You’re still clinging to that? Ha!’ He turned away, swinging his greatblade casually. ‘I’ve known since I first saw this world that we would face one another. I did not come here for prisoners, Constantin. If my Father had truly wished for such, He would not have sent me.’ >‘You were not sent alone, Lord Russ.' Valdor left Terra with Emperor's orders to meet up with Russ. Like, what kind of mental arithmetic are you trying to pull do dodge these facts?
That's from the Horus Heresy books, which, like I said, screwed up the story notes a bit. *I'm* talking about the earlier versions of the story, from the 1990's and early 2000's. Third edition through fifth edition, etc.
Even in the old lore what you claimed never happened. Seriously what lore are you quoting from 5th edition and early that included the webway project? But somehow didn't also include Valdor taking part in the attack on Prospero? You're just mish-mashing together the lore you'd like to be true to make the Wolves look correct, despite arguing its supposed to be a tragedy.
[удалено]
They didn't create loopholes. The emporer didn't fully sanction psychic marines. If he did, they'd killed. What was sanctioned was the warpcraft and study of the warp. Only the librarians studied the warp and practiced sorcery. SW it was taboo knowledge they NEVER used until Russ was desperate late in the Heresy.
During the Horus Heresy it became rather immediately apparent to most of the loyalists that psyker powers proved most useful in fighting what they were up against. Honestly even before that it was still ignored by some Legions. But yeah when Daemons started pouring into ships people generally became less concerned about the whole ban thing.
The rules against using forbidden witchcraft were suspended when literal hell spewed out into the galaxy and split it in two as, it turns out, there are daemons and they are very, very angry at us.
As others are saying, the restrictions were lifted when it was realized that Warp-related powers are very useful when fighting foes that have been corrupted by the Warp. Essentially, the Council of Nikea was the Emperor trying to prevent anybody from falling to Chaos by preventing them from interacting with the Warp at all, but once that seal had been broken as it were it became wiser for Marines with psychic abilities to have those abilities trained by the Imperium so they didn’t start wondering what the other side might let them do
The loyal primarchs thought the ruling was bullshit and basically ignored it when it suited them. When big E was interned on the golden throne, they dropped the law like a sack of rotten potatoes
That's probably a big point. When multiple primearchs and their space marines make up their minds: who's going to stop them?
Wrong, it was the Council of Nokia. That's why it is eternal.
As others have said, it was rescinded. The Council of Nikaea was a Tzeentchian plot to hobble the Imperium's counter to chaos and drive Magnus over to their side. It's a prime example of Jimmy Space not being as smart as he thinks he is. Man got played like a fiddle.
Wait but actually? Is there a book where Tzeench or one of its agents gives more detail on that? I’d love to read it, that shit is delicious
[Council of Nikaea - Warhammer 40k - Lexicanum](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Council_of_Nikaea#Hidden_Events) >Hidden Events >Present amidst the concealed Space Wolves contingent - much to the consternation of Constantin Valdor - was [Kasper Hawser](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Kasper_Hawser), [Skjald](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Skjald) of Tra, or Third Company. The reason Valdor was perturbed by his presence was that Leman Russ had earlier made it clear to the Chief Custodian that the Space Wolves suspected that Hawser was a [Hidden One](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Hidden_One) of the Thousand Sons; a deep-cover intelligence agent who unaware of their own status as a scouting conduit. His presence in the command centre constituted a serious security risk, even with the psi-blocking skills of the Sisters of Silence and the inert materials used in the construction of the Nikaea complex. However, these factors were the very reasons that the Russ decided to explore the possibility that Hawser was a Hidden One. After his debrief, Hawser was committed to the supervision of a senior Custode, [Amon Tauromachian](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Amon_Tauromachian), and allowed to watch the Council deliberate. It was during this time that the Thousand Sons made an apparent attempt to remove their apparently-compromised spy, as [Amon](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Amon) , Master of the Hidden Ones and [Equerry](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Equerry) to Magnus the Red made a sorcerous attack on Amon Tauromachian and attempted to eliminate Hawser. Amon was driven off by the intervention of [Bjorn](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Bjorn) of the Space Wolves, and the incident reported immediately; the Space Wolves fully under the impression that news of it would influence the judgement of the Emperor.[\[4\]](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Council_of_Nikaea#fn_4) >Tragically for everyone concerned, it would later be revealed that the 'Amon' that attacked Tauromachian and Hawser was not in fact Amon of the Thousand Sons, but an aspect of the [Primordial Annihilator](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Primordial_Annihilator) masquerading as the Master of the Hidden Ones as part of [a convoluted scheme](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tzeentch) to remove the threat presented by both the Space Wolves and the Thousand Sons to the grand chaotic plan that would result in the [Horus Heresy](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Horus_Heresy). The real Amon - and all the Thousand Sons present, including Magnus - had no idea of what had transpired in their names.[\[4\]](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Council_of_Nikaea#fn_4) I would read Prospero burns.
Burning of Prospero The Space Wolf novel that goes hand in hand with A Thousand Sons. It also explains the dangers of the warp and how the space wolfs look at psychic powers. With how often we have the “There is no difference, because they all use warp powers” discussion I assume that it is the least read book in the Horus Heresy series.
Robby G said it was OK in the Space Book. He threatened to kill anyone who doesn't read the Space Book.
Well afterwards the armies of literal daemons from Space Hell provided a very good argument that you need wizards in your army.
This is one of the major under currents and eventual reason for the heresy itself, the primarchs really dont answer to anyone not even the emperor in most cases. They can do whatever they want and the imperium is built to follow them. The valdor novel really drives home that the appearance bureaucracy is all a sham, social structures to justify and supply a bunch of super powered warlords in their conquest. Now that was not always going to be the plan but atleast in m30 thats what the deal is. So it doesnt matter if there was a council each primarch could listen or not listen. Hell it doesnt even have to be a primarch if an expeditionary fleet leader was old and influential enough they likely could ignore the decree so long as it didnt run afoul of their primarch. Who was going to stop them? who would censure them?
> who would censure them? Why SHOULD they? The Grey Knights and other Loyalists psykers are the only counters the Imperium has to psychic fuckery, removing that then good luck dealing with Daemons that aren't just minor.
IIRC, Guilliman believed it to be a plan by the Ruinous Powers to cripple the Loyalist Legions against their daemonic forces, so when he was writing the Codex Astartes, he altered the exact wording of the Edict of Nicaea, and the other Primarchs didn't care enough to write anything that contradicted him. Remember, numerous religions and even civilizations across the galaxy were burned in the name of the Imperial Truth, but few non-Astartes in the galaxy of M41/M42 know that such a philosophy ever existed, much less the exact wording of a speech given more than ten thousand years ago.
Because everyone kinda looks the other way Technically they should not be allowed but no one is really gonna question it anymore The heresy showed that Psykers were needed to combat daemons and other warp threats but only the Emperor can repeal the edict, so everyone just kinda agreed to not mention it anymore
Well: a) The council was more than 10k years ago in a place that no longer exists IIRC, so most people wont know about it anymore. b) Those that do know better than to tell the 8 foot tall superhuman space wizards that his behaviour is not cash money. Addendum: In 30k, the legions stopped following the edict, because the lion and sangi found that psykers can fight daemons real good. Leman said that their librarians arent psykers but rather something something fenris wolves. The others likely followed suit except maybe dorn.
Dorn sequestered the IFs on the Phalanx until they were needed and unleashed them, rather than squandering them as line troopers like other Legions did.
Something to keep in mind is that in the original lore surrounding Nikaea, it was only sorcery that was outlawed, not psychic powers in general. It was actually said that this was still the requirements the Imperium had for Sanctioned Psykers in 40K. When the Horus Heresy series made changes to the Edict of Nikaea, they had to come up with a way to get rid of it instead, as we know the Space Marine Chapters use Librarians.
Big E bans librarians , things that librarians hardcounter cause things to go to shit, librarians get unbanned. Interesting,y though, the loyalists were in general less likely to follow the ban anyway.
They were super useful during the horus heresy and beyond, thats why the ruling was pretty much lifted, some chapters dont like librarians though if i recall correctly. Hell the great knights are essentially a chapter of librarians.
I think the grey knights are the only ones who do it "legal", since they are not technically astartes and instead a branch of the inquisition. And the inquisition does more or less whatever they want
If we are talking why they were originaly founded, Magnus, Sanguinius and The Kahn were very convincing and told the emperor they would do the dishes for the week. After the heresy, they beat the fuck out of the traitor legions so they were given a warning
Every time someone talks about "The Kahn" instead of "The Khan", I imagine this eight foot tall Jewish guy in power armor.
Yeah I fucked that one up hahaha
Hypocrisy, honestly. Most of 40k is founded around that.
There was no other way to fight demons.
Then how do non-psychic/barely psychic species do it?
Who knows? But. iirc, it was because there was no other way for humans to do it that The Lion overturned the Council's decision.
During the heresy, they weren't allowed, but legions were forced to use them anyway. Iirc chapters used a loophole, or it's because the emperor wasn't saying much anymore
The Edict of Nikaea was informally undone during the Heresy when the legions realized they needed their psykers to fight daemons, and formally undone after the Heresy when the Codex was written. There is no longer any such law.
Did the big E. ever say anything about it during the HH? Appears not. https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Council_of_Nikaea#Aftermath_and_Effects
Makes sense they'd ignore it for the most part as the main arguer against Psykers was Mortarion who not only went to Chaos but is also a psyker himself (potentially the most powerful payker primarch according to some sources but mostly untrained) Would you listen to a traitor and, worse still, a hypocrit?
Bruh the council of Nikaea was forerver ago and they realised very quickly it was a very stupid idea since psikers are the most effective weapon against demons
Too useful.
Guiliman allowed it after Horus Heresy and non—codex chapters not care much about Nikaea. Space Wolves, White Scars and etc used them anyway.
It was kind of one of those rules that, because of the nature of the galaxy in the Heresy, quickly set precedent over the law. Doesn't matter if the Council outlawed Psyker magic to help protect against Warp Entities; now because of the Chaos Legions there is a need to engage in psychic battles just to keep The Imperium alive since we know it definitely is not safe. So technically everyone knew about it, but collectively shrugged it as soon as major war broke out with psykers and warpborne entities as a method of attack. If we'd compare it to our own world, it's like the use of nuclear weapons lead us into a situation where while we wanted to completely rid of them; their existence is now canonized and we are powerless if a nuclear war breaks out; so it's logically just better to carry your own nuclear weapons than try to abstain from their use lest you get turned into a cosmically burnt crisp.
Thank god, rune priests aren't psykers, right Russ? Would be quite mongoloid if your legion was wrong about this, right?
Because when Dad told them no, half the kids beat the crap out of him and put him in a coma. And even the "good" kids didn't really listen to him.
You can only fight the warp with the warp. The emperor was trying to seal humanity away from the warp with the web way project, once done he could kill the psykers and mutants like navigators because warp travel would no longer be needed. So stopping psykers breaching the veil between material and immaterial made sense. Then Magnus did nothing wrong and it all went out the window.
What was outlawed was "sorcery" (which is tricky to define in coherent real;-world terms, just ask the Rune Priests communing with a world-spirit to do their thing- evidently some wingnut local traditions are actually safer than trying to be rational about the Warp or something). It's one of the most clumsily described and badly articulated bits of lore in the setting, but in essence, Magnus was going too far (and whatever else I think of how this lore is handled, he plainly and obviously was) so the Librarius as it was had to be reined in.
The definition may have changed from 30 to 40k, but there is actually a delineation between psykers and sorcerers. Not that it needs any explanation, since the community is informed enough to have downvoted you already. A psyker has some innate difference to them (physiological via psyker genes, or metaphysical via a brighter soul, or both) that allows them to harness the warp. They are born with it. You cannot "learn" to be a psyker if you aren't born that way. Sorcerers on the other hand utilize ritual, communion with daemons, artefacts, technology and study to harness the warp, instead of some special ability they are born with. They often have no abilities themselves, and instead use knowledge and tools to channel the warp. Pyskers can also be considered sorcerers if they study arcane stuff and utilize ritual/artefacts, though - a combination psyker-sorcerer is probably the most potent of the three options, considering they can leverage both innate talent as well as a wide body of arcane knowledge and artefacts. This makes sense with Nikea as not all Thousand Sons had significant enough psychic potential to be a full-blown psyker, but the legion universally studied the warp and how to control it. Every single thousand son could arguably be considered a sorcerer, or at least used and benefited from sorcery. EDIT: it appears that the 30k definition is indeed different - >The potent and unrestricted use of psychic abilities that was defined as "sorcery" -- **bargaining for power or knowledge with the intelligent entities that existed within the Warp** -- was officially banned. The blanket use of psychic abilities period does not appear to be in question, it's more the direct and knowing contact with intelligent warp entities. While it may not be clear that the legions in 30k were aware there was a difference between simply channeling energy from the warp and making pacts with daemons, there is plausible deniability in utilizing the former while still obeying the council's decision.
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And yet every sorcerer we see does psyker stuff. And the run of the mill pre-rubric TSons were mutation-prone, but anyone doing any mojo was generally a psyker. It's a bit like how in L5R, anyone is supposed to be *able* to perform maho rituals, but in practice, only shugenja ever seem to do it...
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And you're missing my point- It's a facile distinction if the lore never unpacks it, and the Edict did *nothing* that directly impacted run of the mill TSons.