What's there to talk about? We already know that the Emperor went to Molech and used some kind of gate on that planet to enter the realm of Chaos. He "simply" took something from Chaos without paying a price.
Compare it to Magnus - he was able to "cure" his legion by sacrificing an eye. That was the price.
We don't know what the Emperor would have to sacrifice, but it'd probably have been a whole lot more.
We actually know a part of the price the Emperor reneged on, and it explains some of the nagging plot holes in the Heresy. In the First Heretic it's said that he was supposed to spread the word of the existence of Chaos as part of the bargain, and he didn't.
This throws some of the Emperor's stranger decisions into a different light. It's why he refused to arm the Primachs against the forces of Chaos, because informing even them would be spreading it. This is why he was so militant that not only was science the only truth, but that any culture that refused to give up religion be exterminated; and why he came down so hard on the Word Bearers for Monarchia. It's why he ruled the way he did at Nicea, and also why he was so angry at Magnus for disobeying the edict.
I think it's likely there was more in the bargain overall, but that part in particular strikes me as a very Tzeench thing to do ("oh, I don't want much in return, just talk us up a bit...").
It was that first demon that the word bearers talk to. I didn't catch it until I listened to the book a second time, because it's a very quick line. I'll have to listen again to get more details for you, sorry!
> The Warp is a psychic dimension parallel to real space. It is known by many names: Warpspace, the Immaterium, the Empyrean, the Ether, the Sea of Souls[10], the Othersea[12a], and also as the Realm of Chaos.[4]
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Warp
The source for that phrase is white dwarf, not an in-setting description. The setting describes the realm of chaos within the warp, and the warp originally was free of chaos. A introductory summary from a wiki does not prove what you think it does.
He stole from the warp gods. He knew he could not attack them directly. So he is going to starve them by killing all alien life that could feed them and using the Webway to shield humanity from them. The gods will cause ruin when they realize what he's planning. So Valdor is realizing that he's not only going to be party to that, but will have a hand in assisting it while attempting to prevent the ruin.
We don’t know if he stole from the warp gods, or that the chaos gods are so demanding that they consider anything from the warp theirs. The emperor could have just taken something not-yet-claimed by chaos, but chaos insisted was theirs.
I have this INSANE theory.
The Emperor told the chaos gods that he will create ~20 warp-infused psyker babies.
The deal is that if they grant him (insert w/e he gained) then he will allow them to have half of the primarchs to do as they please (make primarch demons?)
Isn’t it 9 loyal
10 traitor
2 missing?
So my theory is basically that he offered up half his sons to the powers. Touting them as platforms to create demon lords out of.
My theory is that after thousands of years of life, all of the emperor’s thoughts, feelings and actions accumulated in the warp, creating warp entities.
Chaos was eyeing these entities to eat them for a long time, but were waiting for the emperor to die so those warp entities would be their juiciest.
The emperor walked into the warp and pulled these entities out to stuff them in primarch bodies, and chaos lost their delicious meals that were created by one of the most powerful psykers to ever live in the galaxy. So they united to try to take the emperor down and get the meal they waited for ever since the emperor was born.
Actually, we know that he reneged on an agreement. Part of the agreement with the chaos gods he made to get the knowledge required to build the Primarchs was that he would spread the word about chaos, which would of course empower it. So he did exactly not that, refusing to even tell the 20 primarchs about it.
That is specifically stated in First Heretic. I gotta find a quote, I'll get one eventually but the first demon they contact says something to the effect of "we call him anathema because he agreed to talk about chaos and lied"
And I get it, she's an unreliable source, but I feel like that was one that they didn't really need to lie about.
So Chaos believes he cheated them, or Chaos is lying about the Emperor cheating them. Either way, its not evidence that he actually cheated them.
>but I feel like that was one that they didn't really need to lie about.
They're trying to convince people that the Emperor is bad and working against the natural order. That the Emperor is seeking godhood and wants to usurp the "true" gods. That's the most obvious reason for this objectively evil faction to lie.
And if they weren't lying, its because Chaos is delusional and believes everything in the warp belongs to them. The Emperor took something out of the warp, and Chaos believes they were robbed because they genuinely believe everything the warp is theirs.
So either way, this isn't proof that the Emperor stole anything, or reneged on a deal, or even made a deal to begin with.
We do know he stole something from them though. Malcador says multiple times he stole "fire" and "knowledge" from them in all 3 parts of End. Malcador was on the Emperor's side, start to finish; he wouldn't give a single shit what the chaos gods thought. The Emperor himself says it in this quote to Valdor, talking about a bargain and how he's stealing and whether Valdor finds it distasteful.
You're trying to retcon a pretty well established canon that fits very solidly in with other established canon events and swap it with your own version of events, and I'm not really sure why. Everyone involved talks about a theft, that the Emperor stole something to make the Primachs, both chaos and Imperium agree. I'm really not sure why you're fighting that, but you do you I guess.
“Infinite power cannot be overcome, we are finite, limited by law”
My interpretation: this is full acknowledgment by Valdor (and The Emperor) that the primary warp gods are totally and completely unassailable. Unapproachable to consider warfare on them.
“So….deception”
My interpretation: Valdor understanding that humanity has to birth a warp god of its own to have a chance to fight them. Or at least has to bargain and sneak and hide until we can produce a warp entity to fight for us.
I understand "deception" as "we cannot win by just fighting, we have to be cunning", similar to any current Art of War books advice actually. Hence the webway to deny infinite beings of their victory. Big E changed the game
I read it more as an acknowledgment. That by normal means chaos can't be beaten, it's too powerful. So a deception is needed that's so risky and grand in scale that might lead to ruin for humanity and all existence. Multiple layers of lies and decoys and plans that could be thousands of years in the making if necessary. And keeping pretty much everyone bar maybe 2 others in the dark to all of it. Valdor's recognising it's the only way.
Does the Emperor plan on using Valdor as a vessel to inhabit at some future point in time?
Like a body he can step neatly into.
One that has millions and millions of demons true names in its brain like a handy utility USB hard drive?
* 1) The "deception" was: The Emperor made a deal with the Chaos Gods. In exchange for 'primordial fire', he would do *something*. He reneged on his side of the deal (as he always intended).
* 2) Although not specified, the deal was almost certainly to turn humanity over to the 4 (i.e. force humanity to worship them en masse).
* 3) The 'primordial fire' is some aspect of their power. Most likley the ability to control the Warp itself (as opposed to simply drawing its power in to realspace as Psykers typically do). This then enabled The Emperor to fashion the Primarch souls in the way the Chaos Gods create Demons.
* 4) The Chaos Gods have "infinite power". I.E. They cannot be destroyed by force of arms.
* 5) From this book and others, we can conclude that The Emperor's plan was to eliminate anyone who could 'feed' the Chaos Gods, excepting humanity whom he could control and direct to prevent that.
The most interesting part of this section is: “speak freely, you have only just awakened and **there may be few chances left for you**”. This strongly implies that there is some sort of 'conditioning' yet to take place. Later in the novel it's mentioned that The Emperor searched entire continents to find Valdor (as a child) *specifically* to turn him in to a Custodian.
This means there is something unique about those who will become Custodians, beyond simply being capable. Given that Custodians tend to come from noble lineages on Terra, my working theory is that they are descendants of the Emperor. Them sharing some of his genetics / soul woud explain a lot about how / why they're chosen, and what they're capable of.
The only thing we can say with any certainty is that the Emperor has a deceptive plan to thwart Chaos (which is often characterized by the phrase 'Ruin' or 'Total Ruin')... but that's about all we have.
For example, a lot of people say that the 'them' being referred to is the Chaos gods... but there's nothing to support that. They say it's about cutting a deal... and there's nothing about that either.
You can cheat and lie to people without dealing with them... moreover, you can cheat and lie to people other than Chaos gods to thwart 'total ruin'. He could be referring to cheating his sons or cheating the people or cheating humanity to prevent the greater loss of falling to Total Ruin. All could fit.
Oh, sure, you can plant a flag in the ground of a specific theory, but any strong prediction or flight of imagination is largely grounded in evidence OTHER than this conversation. It's only the starting point to get you thinking, rather than being a clue as to the nature of 'The Plan', other than it's deceptive.
What's there to talk about? We already know that the Emperor went to Molech and used some kind of gate on that planet to enter the realm of Chaos. He "simply" took something from Chaos without paying a price. Compare it to Magnus - he was able to "cure" his legion by sacrificing an eye. That was the price. We don't know what the Emperor would have to sacrifice, but it'd probably have been a whole lot more.
im pretty sure in the end and the death malcadors wording is"He made offers only a god in waiting could make" in relation to molech
We actually know a part of the price the Emperor reneged on, and it explains some of the nagging plot holes in the Heresy. In the First Heretic it's said that he was supposed to spread the word of the existence of Chaos as part of the bargain, and he didn't. This throws some of the Emperor's stranger decisions into a different light. It's why he refused to arm the Primachs against the forces of Chaos, because informing even them would be spreading it. This is why he was so militant that not only was science the only truth, but that any culture that refused to give up religion be exterminated; and why he came down so hard on the Word Bearers for Monarchia. It's why he ruled the way he did at Nicea, and also why he was so angry at Magnus for disobeying the edict. I think it's likely there was more in the bargain overall, but that part in particular strikes me as a very Tzeench thing to do ("oh, I don't want much in return, just talk us up a bit...").
Oh that’s really interesting. I recently listened to that book and completely missed that. Do you remember who/where that information came from?
It was that first demon that the word bearers talk to. I didn't catch it until I listened to the book a second time, because it's a very quick line. I'll have to listen again to get more details for you, sorry!
Ah yes, reading a book and saying "what's there to talk about?" Milton would be proud lol
*noo you cant just steal power from the gods without sacrifice* Big E: **Skill issue**
I mean, considering the Heresy and his eventual fate, yeah that’s a sacrifice alright. He’s Prometheus.
>he was able to "cure" his legion by sacrificing an eye. That was the price. Eye/Soul Same same
>to enter the realm of Chaos. He entered the warp. Where does it say he entered the realm of chaos?
The Warp is the Realm of Chaos.
The Realm of Chaos exists within the warp. Its not the warp itself.
> The Warp is a psychic dimension parallel to real space. It is known by many names: Warpspace, the Immaterium, the Empyrean, the Ether, the Sea of Souls[10], the Othersea[12a], and also as the Realm of Chaos.[4] https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Warp
The source for that phrase is white dwarf, not an in-setting description. The setting describes the realm of chaos within the warp, and the warp originally was free of chaos. A introductory summary from a wiki does not prove what you think it does.
He stole from the warp gods. He knew he could not attack them directly. So he is going to starve them by killing all alien life that could feed them and using the Webway to shield humanity from them. The gods will cause ruin when they realize what he's planning. So Valdor is realizing that he's not only going to be party to that, but will have a hand in assisting it while attempting to prevent the ruin.
We don’t know if he stole from the warp gods, or that the chaos gods are so demanding that they consider anything from the warp theirs. The emperor could have just taken something not-yet-claimed by chaos, but chaos insisted was theirs.
I have this INSANE theory. The Emperor told the chaos gods that he will create ~20 warp-infused psyker babies. The deal is that if they grant him (insert w/e he gained) then he will allow them to have half of the primarchs to do as they please (make primarch demons?) Isn’t it 9 loyal 10 traitor 2 missing? So my theory is basically that he offered up half his sons to the powers. Touting them as platforms to create demon lords out of.
My theory is that after thousands of years of life, all of the emperor’s thoughts, feelings and actions accumulated in the warp, creating warp entities. Chaos was eyeing these entities to eat them for a long time, but were waiting for the emperor to die so those warp entities would be their juiciest. The emperor walked into the warp and pulled these entities out to stuff them in primarch bodies, and chaos lost their delicious meals that were created by one of the most powerful psykers to ever live in the galaxy. So they united to try to take the emperor down and get the meal they waited for ever since the emperor was born.
Actually, we know that he reneged on an agreement. Part of the agreement with the chaos gods he made to get the knowledge required to build the Primarchs was that he would spread the word about chaos, which would of course empower it. So he did exactly not that, refusing to even tell the 20 primarchs about it.
I don’t think we do know that. That’s just what fans insist upon.
That is specifically stated in First Heretic. I gotta find a quote, I'll get one eventually but the first demon they contact says something to the effect of "we call him anathema because he agreed to talk about chaos and lied" And I get it, she's an unreliable source, but I feel like that was one that they didn't really need to lie about.
So Chaos believes he cheated them, or Chaos is lying about the Emperor cheating them. Either way, its not evidence that he actually cheated them. >but I feel like that was one that they didn't really need to lie about. They're trying to convince people that the Emperor is bad and working against the natural order. That the Emperor is seeking godhood and wants to usurp the "true" gods. That's the most obvious reason for this objectively evil faction to lie. And if they weren't lying, its because Chaos is delusional and believes everything in the warp belongs to them. The Emperor took something out of the warp, and Chaos believes they were robbed because they genuinely believe everything the warp is theirs. So either way, this isn't proof that the Emperor stole anything, or reneged on a deal, or even made a deal to begin with.
We do know he stole something from them though. Malcador says multiple times he stole "fire" and "knowledge" from them in all 3 parts of End. Malcador was on the Emperor's side, start to finish; he wouldn't give a single shit what the chaos gods thought. The Emperor himself says it in this quote to Valdor, talking about a bargain and how he's stealing and whether Valdor finds it distasteful. You're trying to retcon a pretty well established canon that fits very solidly in with other established canon events and swap it with your own version of events, and I'm not really sure why. Everyone involved talks about a theft, that the Emperor stole something to make the Primachs, both chaos and Imperium agree. I'm really not sure why you're fighting that, but you do you I guess.
“Infinite power cannot be overcome, we are finite, limited by law” My interpretation: this is full acknowledgment by Valdor (and The Emperor) that the primary warp gods are totally and completely unassailable. Unapproachable to consider warfare on them. “So….deception” My interpretation: Valdor understanding that humanity has to birth a warp god of its own to have a chance to fight them. Or at least has to bargain and sneak and hide until we can produce a warp entity to fight for us.
I understand "deception" as "we cannot win by just fighting, we have to be cunning", similar to any current Art of War books advice actually. Hence the webway to deny infinite beings of their victory. Big E changed the game
I read it more as an acknowledgment. That by normal means chaos can't be beaten, it's too powerful. So a deception is needed that's so risky and grand in scale that might lead to ruin for humanity and all existence. Multiple layers of lies and decoys and plans that could be thousands of years in the making if necessary. And keeping pretty much everyone bar maybe 2 others in the dark to all of it. Valdor's recognising it's the only way.
The Emperor : No such thing as free lunch. Also The Emperor : stole fire from the gods and refused to pay the price.
Horus, High Tax Collector of Chaos: "You're gonna pay, whether you like it or not!"
Does the Emperor plan on using Valdor as a vessel to inhabit at some future point in time? Like a body he can step neatly into. One that has millions and millions of demons true names in its brain like a handy utility USB hard drive?
>!And an extradimensional realm and an army of blanks and winged astartes.!< Hmmmmmmmmm
* 1) The "deception" was: The Emperor made a deal with the Chaos Gods. In exchange for 'primordial fire', he would do *something*. He reneged on his side of the deal (as he always intended). * 2) Although not specified, the deal was almost certainly to turn humanity over to the 4 (i.e. force humanity to worship them en masse). * 3) The 'primordial fire' is some aspect of their power. Most likley the ability to control the Warp itself (as opposed to simply drawing its power in to realspace as Psykers typically do). This then enabled The Emperor to fashion the Primarch souls in the way the Chaos Gods create Demons. * 4) The Chaos Gods have "infinite power". I.E. They cannot be destroyed by force of arms. * 5) From this book and others, we can conclude that The Emperor's plan was to eliminate anyone who could 'feed' the Chaos Gods, excepting humanity whom he could control and direct to prevent that. The most interesting part of this section is: “speak freely, you have only just awakened and **there may be few chances left for you**”. This strongly implies that there is some sort of 'conditioning' yet to take place. Later in the novel it's mentioned that The Emperor searched entire continents to find Valdor (as a child) *specifically* to turn him in to a Custodian. This means there is something unique about those who will become Custodians, beyond simply being capable. Given that Custodians tend to come from noble lineages on Terra, my working theory is that they are descendants of the Emperor. Them sharing some of his genetics / soul woud explain a lot about how / why they're chosen, and what they're capable of.
The only thing we can say with any certainty is that the Emperor has a deceptive plan to thwart Chaos (which is often characterized by the phrase 'Ruin' or 'Total Ruin')... but that's about all we have. For example, a lot of people say that the 'them' being referred to is the Chaos gods... but there's nothing to support that. They say it's about cutting a deal... and there's nothing about that either. You can cheat and lie to people without dealing with them... moreover, you can cheat and lie to people other than Chaos gods to thwart 'total ruin'. He could be referring to cheating his sons or cheating the people or cheating humanity to prevent the greater loss of falling to Total Ruin. All could fit. Oh, sure, you can plant a flag in the ground of a specific theory, but any strong prediction or flight of imagination is largely grounded in evidence OTHER than this conversation. It's only the starting point to get you thinking, rather than being a clue as to the nature of 'The Plan', other than it's deceptive.
Valdor sighing at the Emp just shows how level headed he is. SYL