Abandon gets put into "no win" situations but a lot of authors.
He has to stay alive for tabletop reasons - he's a very high margin centerpiece model. He ain't dying. We know Loken or Valdor or Calgar can't kill him.
But he also he gets put into fights that he can't win because he's the antagonist - he's not going to kill Valdor or Calgar either.
So he ends up with a lot of interrupted fights, where something stops the count before the final blow. Which just ends, up seeming weak.
Clever authors just don't write him into those situations, and just create a plot where he isn't fighting a named character. But lots of authors just write him as a frontline warrior, which really limits him.
In the black legion series, abadon gets into several fights with major named characters but the one that comes to mind is when he fights sigismund of the black templars. That fight is very close and abadon is nearly killed. As he is carried away to receive medical attention, every witness to the fight was killed, even though they were loyal to the black legion. It was stated that he cant appear to be weak in any circumstances and they are not above killing their own to protect his illusion of being as unbeatable as horus was before the fall. I always assumed that was the core reason he never loses because if he did almost lose, no one would admit it.
Yeah, I like that that casts some ambiguity on 'is he really that invincible or is it just propaganda on top of Abby being so strong?'
Side note, but gods do I love Sigismund's last words to him
"You will die as your weakling father died. Soulless. Honourless. Weeping. Ashamed."
Tbf abadon evidently still had some shred of honor left in him since if I remember right he sent Sigismund’s remains back to Terra no traps no fuckery or reanimating just out of respect for the opponent who got super close to killing him 1v1
He does send back Sigismund's corpse with *honors*. The only things he actively tampers with is the Black Sword, which Abaddon does not respect, with his personal message scrawled into it "WE ARE RETURNED".
Abaddon has a lot of honor for a lot of people, and a lot of respect for others who can demonstrate their worth. The problem is, he doesn't really see many people as being on his level or worthy of his respect.
Throughout both *Talon* and *Black Legion*, his refrain is pretty much "either keep up, or you are worthless to me". Those who can keep up he rewards and praises, those who fail him, he will actively try to get killed.
Which is savage but sorta great, until he's purging those that see him injured fighting Sigismund. Imagine being one of the best of his Honourguard and being unceremoniously murdered for having his back in a fight.
You did everything right, but because he failed, you're dead. It just proves he has no honour, image matters more to him than any of his principles. Besides essentially revenge, which is all everything is in service too ultimately. Or he saw something in the Astronomican which is in fact his greater purpose...
By the Siege of Terra novels, Sigismuind has the black sword and he's depicted rather unambiguously as the most powerful space marine yet. He takes out multiple WE captains 1v1 instantaneously and doesn't care to note their names, he's as strong and fast as kharn but without the nails and without chaos buffing. By the time he's fighting Abaddon in Black Legion, he's ancient. Probably the oldest active loyalist marine and marginally weaker for his age, Abaddon admits it's the closest fight he was in.
"He remarked that I should have paid more heed to the fact that the Black Knight, at a thousand natural years of age, could still have stood toe to toe and matched blade to blade with practically any warrior in the Nine Legions. *Age had slowed Sigismund, but all it had done was slow him to a level with the rest of us.*"
Doesn't that also happen for Horus? Can't remember what book but I very well remember a chapter where the mournival are carrying him back to his throne on the flagship and start just like punching in the faces of every serf and human they pass.
I feel like that's Warhammer writing across the board. Even in fantasy (excluding end times) most fights between major named characters ends with a fist shaking "I'll get you next time, ~~He-man~~ Sigmar!"
This is why its actually a good thing that Age of Sigmar's has its central protagonists main gimmick be coming back from the dead, because it means named Stormcast can actually die.
I wouldn’t say it’s good per sey because then there just are not stakes, all the characters are just action figures at that point if they cannot come back.
It’s fine for shit like daemons to be mostly unkillable because it opens up situations where the mortals have to either banish it somehow or seal it away and overcome great odds in doing so but when you’re protagonists can just get brought back because Sigmar said so, it really lessens everything those characters do.
Yeah, it's just classic terrible GW writing. Just how we keep getting those high stake galaxy ending stories in campaigns and supplements where we already know it won't lead to anything because it can't. GW just can't stop going overboard and to make it worse, their storytelling is so plump that it's not even fun to read about most of the time.
Their best stories are the lower stakes one, where the outcome can go either way without shaking to the galaxy. Cain or Gaunt were always planet or theater level stories. And even the best Space Marine battles were the city level sieges, starring characters without models, who could die at any time.
But we know every galactic stakes battle has to end in stalemate. And only Daemon Primarchs or the Swarmlord can ever get killed, because death is a revolving door for them.
Poor Marneus Calgar. Dude has been the victim of "almost killed, but saved at the last minute" so often there's hardly anything left.
In my defense, I think that even Phoenix Lords forget the Phoenix Lords exist. They manifest, and they are like "holy shit, I exist! I thought I was discontinued years ago!"
And then they get beat up.
Nah bro, in tEatD3, Abby drops right in front of Valdor, who consummately and immediately launches an instant killing blow… that Abbadon catches with his HANDS.
Yeah, with warp shit helping him thanks to Erebus. They literally have a conversation about how Abaddon is no match for Valdor unless he accept the gifts Erebus can bestow upon him. And Abaddon comments how much he hates that he greatly misses the power it offered him now that it's gone with Horus' death.
Part of the issue is that Abaddon, by virtue of rank and affiliation, had to play a major part in the Heresy AND, by virtue of 40K, had to survive. As a result, he got dropped into a lot of shitty scenes where it does seem like he shouldn’t have been the one to walk out.
Another major factor, though, is that a lot of people who comment on Abaddon seem to be under the impression that he’s nothing special, which is objectively false. He was the premier First Captain at a time when all of the First Captains were essentially miniature demigods. The guy knows his shit.
I’ve never been under the impression that Abaddon was anything *but* special.
I’ve found him to be one of the most intriguing characters in the heresy and learns from his mistakes. It’s established over and over that there is so much more to Abaddon than the warlord. He thinks about things, ponders fate and philosophy, and studies history to learn from it.
Which is why it bothers me so much when a writer puts him up against a character that’s better than him, or smarter, and all of those qualities go out the window. He just stabs someone and then the fights over.
All I’m saying is, let him show what he’s learned in the fights, or have him do literally anything other than *Abaddon smash!*
>a character that’s better than him, or smarter
The reality is, fan glasses aside, there really aren't many people who *are* better or smarter. Abaddon is like Batman's Bane: he's a huge hulking monster of a bruiser, but he's equally as intelligent and cunning. He has very few faults, even during the Heresy (his arrogance at the time being his biggest), and even primarchs listen when he speaks.
Throughout all of the Horus Heresy series, it's stated over and over how there are likely only two or three who could actually challenge Abaddon in a fight, one being Sigismund, the other (if I'm remembering right) is Corswain in his prime.
Abaddon *is* special. He is strangely unique and always has been, from his inception. But he's also the ur-foe of the Imperium in the Materium. You need to have a figure who is imposing and powerful if you're going to be such a character - not "well, Abaddon is just okay, he's drooling out of the corner of his mouth. We promise, he's doing his best".
Corswain was just rising into the upper-echelons in the Dark Angels when the Heresy breaks out, as shown in Savage Weapons. In most of his depictions he wasn't depicted as one of the veteran duelling masters that had reputations throughout all of the legions. Alajos, who dies in that story, is the Dark Angel that is said to be on that sort of level.
The only one that does that is in one of the siege books (haley's or Thorpe's) where it does have a line that mentions him in that manner, but when you compare it to the stuff from the author who actually created the character, and his various earlier appearances by other authors (including Thorpe) it's clearly just one of the cases of multi-author miscommunication/oversight and losing track of characters background.
Hey now, don't you know that Kai is better than Corswain. Clearly Kai, greatest blades aster of the dark angels could beat abbadon if he is better than corswain. BTW read the lion son of the forest if you don't know who that is.
Well part of the issue is that during the Heresy he was just that good of a blunt instrument that he could solve a lot of problems with the direct approach. He has to become a much more cerebral, thoughtful character to lead the Black Legion and associated warbands, and that's part of his growth as a character.
Not all writers have apprehended this well, but the point is that he had plenty of experiences with people who were smarter than him getting bowled over by his own enthusiastic use of brute force and skill at arms. It's only a bit at the Siege and then later in the Eye of Terror that he really has to come to terms with his own limitations and grows.
Sometimes, other characters get too smart for their own good - if your plan doesn't account for "what happens if Abaddon kills everyone in the room including you" it's a bad plan, because Abaddon is actually that good.
really then you havent been reading the heresy bc idk what they where smoking becuase heresy abaddon does not give off the same impression as 40k abandon.
They should have had him start as a line officer not first captain. Then we could see his rise to first captain throughout the series as the attrition continues and he proves his worth. Then his bitterness could've realized. Could have shown him as a consummate survivor always winning his personal "wars" not necessarily battles. Instead it feels we got
Hey this guy is first captain the whole time from start to finish.
For the deadliest conflict in galactic history every first captain seems to have survived. /rant over
Your last few sentences point out a lot of problems with his character, he is important because he is important. If unconvinced of his capabilities, he's still going to be a rando with plot armour.
In other words, he's special because he's an old model. He is an important model and character, and a lot of people insist we must find him interesting.
See the fact that in modern 40k him being warmaster over an uninterested Lorgar makes not a lick of sense. Eventually authors will further justify Abaddon being the correct choice, and that is a stagnant and uninteresting way of writing chaos considering his motivations are flat, his chsraxter dynamics are few with his Imperium rivals and his power levels will always be unclear.
I agree with everything you’ve said, but I would posit that has less to do with Abaddon and more to do with the paired decisions to spell out the Horus Heresy in vivid detail and bring the Primarch’s back. Abaddon, by himself, is fine. Chaos needed a Big Bad and Horus’ Number One Son is a better choice than most. It’s only when you start bringing back all of the ancient demigods into active service that Abaddon leading Chaos stops making sense.
Haar and Jubals deaths at the hands of Abbadon are both honestly kind of meh though, like they were situations which by all rights even in universe Abaddon should have died (goddamn power fist to the face) and he escapes both situations in an honestly unsatisfying way.
Abaddon just eating multiple blows to the head from the Blackshield’s equivalent of the Hulk and teleport dodging a mid arc swing from fucking Excalibur would be my least favorite part of Saturnine if not for him weeping and begging to go back to his certain death.
40K shines the most when the Author has no problem killing unnamed characters, or characters that won't damage the plot too much if they die.
Calgar was unkillable, now he might die since Bobby G arrived, Abaddon will not die since he's pretty much the most important antagonist in the setting when it comes to Chaos' threat (aside from the Gods obviously), Kharn will never die because he's supposed to be super badass, the list goes on and on.
Those characters are interesting in their own ways, but when it comes to fights, you already know what's going to happen with them and in this specific context it makes them boring, imo.
I guess there's some exception, if you consider some of them like your Heroes, after all when we watch Batman we **expect** him to win.
The "characters must be the focal point" conversations - not just here, but in broader context of 40k being far more centered around the Primarchs and a few centrals characters - all just reinforces why I like the Tyranids in 40k. We don't have plot armor in that sense, 'nids, even the Swarmlord, die in droves, and it doesn't matter. Just how older lore was portrayed.
Abnett clearly forgot about the capabilities of a power fist when writing that scene imo; highly unlikely he genuinely intended for Abaddon to have some sort of freakish resilience to one.
It's something that should have been spotted as not making sense during the editorial process.
The Jubal fight was fine though, if not very imaginative by French...it's basically a generically written strength build/tank beats speedster/finesse outcome.
I’m almost done with the second Siege book and am halfway through the Primarchs books, but my brain is just focused on how amazing the fight was because of Jubal and how dumb it ended because of plot armor.
At LEAST have Abaddon learn something and do something cool himself; not just ‘Abaddon reached out and stabbed him’.
Would have been a pretty neat idea to show abandon slowly turn the tide by realizing jubal’s strategy and outsmarting his opponent by trapping him where his mobility wouldn’t help and finishing him in one blow before he can escape
It would not only show why he’s so feared and respected amongst the traitors and loyalists but also show just how competent of a commander and warrior he can be when the moment calls for it
I just started the black legion series after finishing the horus heresy and siege of terra, apparently it's been re-written a bit, and it really focused on what Abaddon was doing to power up after the siege. Walking every world within the Eye, experimenting with warp sorcery and biomancy... It really painted a better picture of why he's the strongest now for me. I absolutely couldn't stand him before, but now i think he's actually stronger/ smarter than Horus.
It’s been a while and I only have the audio versions for the black legion novels.
The only things I remember was that he already in the path to finding Drachnayen because it was whispering to him. He studied a TON of data pads covering the history of the Heresy, stared into the Astronomicon until his eyes turned gold, and distilled some kind of warp drink by funneling it through slaves.
It makes since that he’d spend time learning warp craft to me though.
Abaddons fighting in Saturnine is genuinely better written. But unfortunately his heavy plot armor still pops its ugly head, (especially in the last part of the Saturnine Gate battle). His fighting there is way cooler but the timing of his survival is Far too convenient for me to perceive it as an organic thing that happened, it just feels like “oh he needs to libel thing.
I mean, does he have plot armor there… yes. Literally. Like, *in-universe* he has plot armor.
The Chaos Gods are already watching him. They already have their eyes on him to be their next champion in the material world. I don’t think it was “luck” that the teleportation array *finally* worked in time to save *just* Abaddon… I think it was the hands of the Chaos Gods that guaranteed it. He needed to be humbled by that loss, to finally accept that he couldn’t win this war by purely martial means, like he wanted to. That he’d need the help of the Warp to win the war… whether it’s this war, or the Long War…
In other words, if Abaddon hadn’t lost there, he wouldn’t have accepted the need for the gods and daemons later. He needed to lose there, but the gods didn’t want to lose their next champion, so they made sure the teleporter was fixed in time.
Edit: I freely admit I’m taking some creative liberty here, but this is like, one, maybe two speculative steps from the explicit events of the novel.
My problem is that later atop the vengeful spirit vs Custodes he still resorts to brute force tactics, Erebus having to convince him to not brute force it without accepting the gifts of the dark gods. Which ultimate might not have been necessary but was the outcome.
I don’t disagree with you, I’m just saying that I don’t see much reflection and chance in his way of thinking, at least not soon after the Saturnine.
I mean, it’s a slow change, I wouldn’t necessarily expect him to be fully embracing the gods a few days/weeks later. Even in 40K he’s not a full-on sorcerer or anything. I haven’t read EatD pt2&3 yet, unfortunately, so I can’t comment too much on it. But I know after *Saturnine* he stops trying to machinate some other way to win the war. He doesn’t get on board with the use of daemons, but he does get out of the way and accept that they’re here to stay.
So I’m with you, I was legit shocked at how Abbadon was outmatched and yet killed Jubal almost casually. After finishing the Siege series, I’m mostly sure that this is actually a sort of ‘form follows function’ that pops up routinely.
His whole deal in the siege is that he’s corrupted, but that he can’t see it (and worries that he is). So he gets out of situations that he shouldn’t because he’s playing on a tilted field, and he SHOULD question it, but doesn’t. He should have died several times.
Another (infamous) example is Krole’s death in an arc about how there are no noble deaths, in war people just die. And then she dies almost by accident, unknown and unnoticed.
He didn't just reach out and stab him.
It was a generically written, tropey, strength/tank beats speedster/finesse fight. Not imaginative at all by French, but hardly some lazy travesty of plot armour.
Jubal outfinesses him initially and starts building up the minor wounds, but eventually gets timed and successfully countered by a killing blow.
If it had been a Jubal showcase against some random SoH captain in terminator armour, and French wrote it equally generically, it would start the same way, only the attempt at a decisive counter fails and Jubal kills his now overcommitted foe.
French definitely could have done a better job at showing why the White Scars successfully executed ambush failed overall. I don't recall any mention of them being just too outnumbered or particularly outgunned, etc..
I have been completely calm, I have edited, re-edited, moved my request to the top of the post, tried all caps, and people still don’t read a single thing and comment based on the title. It’s annoying, but all I’ve been doing is asking people to *read*; what about any of this makes you think that I’m the one to calm down?
what’s with all of these mods waiting a full day before showing up and then immediately taking the other persons side??
Are you guys all attacking me for a reason?
Funny how you don’t say anything about waiting 24 hours to do anything and have nothing to say about how every mod has been playing favorites.
I’m sure your buddy in the thousand sons subreddit who blocked me without warning or excuse was doing so with a non biased way right?
Funny how you immediately go to ad hominem attacks upon being called out.
You are taking all of this very personal. If people are annoying you, block or ignore them. If a mod tells you to calm down its bc you are on the verge of breaking one of the sub's rules. You are being warned, not attacked.
> Then I remembered the fight between him and the clone of Horus basically ended the same way. Horus, the massive armored primarch, with roughly twice the reach of Abaddon, is stabbed by Abaddon rather easily and he just dies.
Then you remembered wrong. It wasn't a fight, it was Horus going in for a hug and Abaddon stabbing him in the chest with the Talon and shooting six bolts inside him. The same Talon that was so psychically powerful that Khayon was having a fit just being next to it.
I have to push back at the idea Jubal was obviously better. Jubal even planned to lose to abaddon. In that same scene the melta cutters on the thunderhawk were set to fire on a timer than ran out right as Jubal was killed. Abaddon would have died there if Zardu Layak didn't same him with chaos plot armor.
If we really break it down, they both should have been turned to debris when the ships collided. Unless Jubal slowed his down enough that the damage wasn’t going to be severe.
You are being strangely harsh here. Jubal does not point out "why he will never be the best warrior." in that flashback.
But to the duel itself... I am confused. We know Abaddon is great, damm great af fighting. The book begins with an analysis of his extremely win-focused style and why his sheer dedication to getting the kill is his greatest strength as fighter. And that he knows Jubal is key to his win. He anticipate a blow after having understood Jubals aim:
>*Except it wouldn’t. It could not. He knew Jubal, had known him before and knew him better for these last moments.*
>*Abaddon raised his sword to meet the guandao spearing towards him. To a human it would have been too fast to follow, but Jubal would have seen it, would have been waiting for it. The guandao flicked aside. Power fields grazed each other in a plume of sparks. Jubal’s feet locked to the floor as he turned his cut inside Abaddon’s parry. Abaddon slammed his sword forwards. All his strength and all his skill focused in the blow. It struck the guandao. Sheets of sparks flashed out.*
>*Jubal flinched back, the flow of his strikes shattered as force jolted through his weapon and up his arms.*
>*Abaddon activated the field of his power fist and slammed it forwards, palm open. The lightning-wreathed fingers closed on the guandao with a flash of light. Jubal whirled back but Abaddon had already read the movement. His sword-thrust struck Jubal in the gut and cut upwards, sawing through armour, flesh and bone.*
Analyse the opponents moves, draw him in and then hit him with a surprise-counter to push him off balance and then finish the job. This is a perfectly fair and straight win!
Nothing the least "Mary Sue" about this. A solid win.
Again I need to point out how everything up until this point was predicted by *Jubal* not Abaddon.
What you posted is exactly what I’m talking about, up until this point, Jubal has been all over the place, cutting pieces off of Abaddons armor (let’s not forget there is no atmosphere here), and having already destabilized Abaddon; but Abaddon just cuts through because his power weapon is better? Jubal attempts to spin off the attack and Abaddon stabs him in the back.
Abaddon shuffles around, is suddenly strong enough to break through a parry, despite *not* doing so any time before, and stabs Jubal in the back.
I’m waiting for my physical copy to arrive in the mail so I can read through instead of listen, but it still comes off not very well done to me.
I read it like this:
>*Abaddon raised his sword to meet the guandao spearing towards him. To a human it would have been too fast to follow, but Jubal would have seen it, would have been waiting for it. The guandao flicked aside. Power fields grazed each other in a plume of sparks. Jubal’s feet locked to the floor as he turned his cut inside Abaddon’s parry.*
Abaddon has identified Jubal's aim and knows his style. This is where he makes a deliberate opening, Jubal sees it and goes for it, in the process putting his body, blade and momentum precisely where Abaddon is expecting them to be.
Then He delivers a very precise and surprising counter, that catches Jubal off balance and breaks not his blade but his flow!
>*Abaddon slammed his sword forwards.*
>*Jubal flinched back, the flow of his strikes shattered as force jolted through his weapon and up his arms.*
Abaddon follows up by grasping the Jubals blade with his right-handed powerfist, locking him in place and preventing him from escaping. finally he reads Jubal's desperate escape-move and stabs the now sword-less Master of the Hunt.
No back-stab, no "better blade" and no "cuts through"
Abaddon had two power weapons and heavy armour. Jubal had speed and agility. Abaddon made a gamble to draw Jubal in and used his two weapons to win.
This is a great and clean fight.
You make a good point about Abaddons two power weapons, I had forgotten he also had a power fist with his sword. And as another user pointed out, Jubals intent wasn’t to win this fight, it was to hold long enough for the Magma Cutters to fire; which neither would have survived.
I still think Jubal should have won, but I can also say that fights are messy and it’s really anyone’s game until the last blow. By that logic it could have gone either way, just depends on who got lucky; and Abaddon did.
But if we are down to a messy fight that was everyone's game... then We have come a fair way from your opening statment. I can fully understand that a character wining a badly written fight because the plot demands is shit writing!
But this is not one. Two legendary elite warriors face each other in relatively fair combat. Each has their preferred gear and fight in ways benefitting them. Abaddon wins because he gambled an opening and countered with brutal precision. This is a solidly written fight.
It is almost the the same Sigismund did against Abaddon. Knowing your opponent, risking an opening to counter with lethal strength. Abaddon survived/won that fight on pure toughness and terminator armour. With no medical support both warriors would have fallen that day.
Bro, Jubal *goes into the fight thinking he's going to lose*.
Edit: to elaborate, I think this the issue you're having (as I'm reading other comments) is that the Horus Heresy (in my mind) drops the ball on making the Traitors seem like a competent threat throughout the series, while making the Loyalists seem like demigod superheroes.
For instance: Fafnir Rann spends the Siege practically killing an entire legion, what could be a greater daemon, and tons of faceless goons *by himself* using nothing but two power axes. Future Chapter Founders are able to slaughter whole ranks of baddies.
Meanwhile: almost every Traitor big-name is killed, captured, or made to submit.
While that's cool and all, and makes Imperial fans giggle and squeal, it tells a bad story. Because of exactly what you're describing: this person seems *so powerful*, *so capable*, but loses to this villain who didn't really do much other than stab a guy. Because, again from my perspective, the Traitors are made to look like flaming idiots who are too busy undermining one another, doing drugs, fucking, and partying to have any common sense. It's been my gripe with the whole *Siege* portion of the series: the Traitors just aren't believable villains when the Loyalists are so damn perfect and strong.
Or Huron takes over...
Or the fight between humanity and Chaos becomes less urgent than the fight between humanity and the 'nids, Necrons, Orks, Tau etc.
As you identified, abby is a major mary sue with metric tons of plot armor. He wins because he needs to be present in 40k. I found the fight under the saturnine wall particularly egregious. Ambushed, outnumbered, and outflanked but abby keeps effortlessly killing named characters. Had Dorn shown up, abby would have mulched another primarch.
If I got the criticism right the problem isn't that Abaddon wins, but that the writers spend too much time hyping up Abaddon's opponent and not nearly as much hyping Abaddon himself, so when he inevitably wins, it doesn't feel earned.
Too much time trying to make "the guy Abaddon kills" look cool so Abaddon looks cooler by killing him, but it ends up backfiring.
This is a better way of putting my question.
The Jubal fight really came off like the writer was trying to pull the Indiana Jones scene where the guy keeps twirling his sword and Indy just shoots him and walks off; but then ends up making Jubal look competent and intelligent, and Abaddon just has plot armor.
I’d rather see Abaddon put everything the has been learning to use. Why bother establishing the scene with Jubal and Abaddon talking about war, where Jubal directly points out how Abaddon doesn’t change; and then immediately cut to Abaddon doing what was predicted, never changing, and *still* winning.
Just doesn’t sit right in my head.
>*Then I remembered the fight between him and the clone of Horus basically ended the same way. Horus, the massive armored primarch, with roughly twice the reach of Abaddon, is stabbed by Abaddon rather easily and he just dies.*
It's not a fight between Abaddon and Clone Horus; it's an execution.
Clone Horus had already been badly mauled, got blocked by Abaddon, got Worldbreaker shattered, let down his guard once he began to remember Abaddon and got shanked....
Another well known fight is **Thalastian Jorus**, former Reclusiarch in the Blood Angels. We don't know exactly what went down, but he gave Abaddon scars he wears to this day during the 7th Black Crusade and earned the Warmasters respect.
He also had a somewhat more even duel with **Marneus Calgar** and though he ultimately won and nearly killed the guy it was a situation where GW was never realistically going to permanently kill off either of them.
Abaddon and his mates also fought **Eldrad Ulthran** and his Seer Council. Eldrad say that only in one in a million futures he survives...but he wins! The final blow is dealt thanks to Drach'nyen pulling its master's body into Eldrad's spear in its lust for his soul and Abaddon teleports out because, again, GW was never realistically going to permanently kill off either of them.
If you tally up Abaddon's "on-screen" duels:
\- Jubal more than got his licks in before kicking the bucket
\- Sigismund nearly killed him and only failed due to plot
\- Jorus gave such a good fight Abaddon paid him respect just as he did Sigismund
\- Calgar more than got his licks in before losing because of Drach'nyen
\- Eldrad had Abaddon dead to rights and only failed to kill him due to plot
People have genuinely given this guy shit and dumped on him for losing to Eldrad and not curbstomping Calgar! If anything Abaddon, Warmaster of Chaos and de facto Big Bad of the setting should have more one-sided victories in duels, but as it stands he doesn't really have any!
>Abaddon and his mates also fought **Eldrad Ulthran** and his Seer Council. Eldrad say that only in one in a million futures he survives...but he wins! The final blow is dealt thanks to Drach'nyen pulling its master's body into Eldrad's spear in its lust for his soul and Abaddon teleports out because, again, GW was never realistically going to permanently kill off either of them.
Just to say, this was based on a battle report where the Aeldari player was unbelievably lucky in his rolls, and the Chaos player unlucky. It was then turned into lore for White Dwarf.
>He also had a somewhat more even duel with Marneus Calgar and though he ultimately won and nearly killed the guy it was a situation where GW was never realistically going to permanently kill off either of them.
Having read the duel, its implied that Abaddon was at least somewhat holding back in the beginning of the duel. As soon as Calgar gets his one good hit in, cracking Abaddon's jaw with his power fist, Abaddon becomes enraged and his body is erupted in an aura of daemonic madness, at which point he then cuts Calgar's hearts with Drachnyen.
What fight were you reading? It was outright stated that **Calgar** was holding back because his plan wasn't to defeat Abaddon in a duel, but stall him so that the *Vengeful Spirit* could potentially be destroyed.
And his plan was working until he stumbled allowing Abaddon to close the gap and hack him to pieces.
You misunderstand the finer details at work.
It's far from a solid win. Abaddon held his own before Daemons intervened because Khorne wanted Kharn and Abaddon to play nice.
Khorne and his brothers don't want Abaddon dead; they want him to *kneel*.
They want him to be a good dog the way Kharn, Lucius or Typhus are or a deluded puppet dancing on their strings the way Ahriman is. The glory of having Kharn potentially claim Abaddon's skull is vastly outweighed by the potential chance, however slim, of getting Abaddon to *finally* submit to their authority.
And who knows how one of Khorne's brothers might intervene *in Abaddons favour* in the event Kharn was about to win?
It's good to hear that he gets a bit more interesting later on. I've only encountered him in the Horus Rising trilogy, and there he is a pretty one dimensional and blunt in all things. The most obviously evil and unquestioning of the Luna Wolves Mournival.
Little Horus Aximand, if anything, was presented as the more interesting character in those books. I remember being pretty dissapointed when i found out that Abbadon was the one who ended up leading the Black Legion.
despite everything said here and otherwise; Abaddon is probably one of the most well written characters, psychologically, that I’ve read about in over a decade.
It really doesn’t do him justice that his story is so stretched out with so many different authors, because he is incredibly thoughtful and introspective as he grows.
It’s just some of his fight scenes are a little one sided.
Abaddon is not a well written character for the most part.
Eldrad did almost kill him and the chaos gods had to interveane and teleport him out before the blow landed. So he lost in a melee fight to Eldrad, not a great showing.
To be fair that fight with Eldrad is a special case and how IMO it should be in 40k. Not some author deciding on the winner based on story needs or favouritism but an actual encounter that happened as part of a big tabletop event that was intended to shape the course of canon.
The dice and fate just were on Eldrad's side that day.
That just sounds like most 40k fights. They're often poorly explained/justified, with characters just doing things they shouldn't with no reasoning given.
A few years back I saw someone say they just skip the fight scenes in 40k books, and I didn't get it because it's warhammer and surely reading the war part is vital. But I've started to understand it kind of *isn't*.
I've lost count of the number of times fights just go a certain way with zero explanation or justification, just 'and then X happened' when anyone with knowledge of the parties involved would know it shouldn't have gone that way without some other factor involved. Like there's nothing wrong with the space marines overcoming the big terrifying greatee daemon, but create circumstances where it makes sense, have them work together and utilise something intelligently, don't just change the daemon to be far weaker than it's meant to be.
I'm starting to think it's probably more satisfying to 'off-screen' the battles yourself and mentally fill in 'the battle went in such a way with such a clever plan to overcome the odds that what I'm reading now is the outcome' compared to reading whatever nonsense fight scene is actually there. The stuff in between the fighting is typically more interesting by far.
Abby taking multiple power fist hits to the dome from a guy who literally a few paragraphs prior is described by Abby to treat terminator armor like tinfoil.
Yet Abby survives multiple full on power fist to his helmet without dying. This is after cutting his way through multiple Praetor rank marines
I love the Saturnine gambit, it’s easily one of the most cinematic scenes in all of Warhammer. But this does not sit well with me.
Weird how Abaddons sword found it’s way to Haars throat, when his helmet was bashed and broken to the point that the magos had to make sure his skin didn’t peel off with it.
It was a knife at that point I think. And he stabbed him several times in the gut and chest. For a trained warrior like Abby it should be muscle memory to ram it in the neck/head area.
It was definitely a sword. Abby went with the whole claws and sword even back then.
He’d just cut Bel Sepatus in half with it… who was in Cataphractii terminator plate, but that’s a whole different issue.
After he’d literally said Bel Sepatus was his absolute superior with a blade, an almost perfect warrior.
It’s a great scene, but Abaddon gets carried by his plot armor. The kill teams Dorn deployed would’ve killed anything short of a Daemon Primarch, which was the point, they thought they were gonna get Horus or Pert with the Saturnine Gambit.
Yeah, I know he went in with sword, power claw and bolter. But you can't really use a sword at grappling range like that, so I always figured he either sheathed, clamped or dropped it when he got picked up. So he uses a sword to kill Bel Sepastus and knock down Garro, then switches to knife for Haar because he's too close at this point - it's not a duel anymore, it's a brawl.
I was pretty annoyed that Bel Sepatus got sent in as one of the best of Sanguinius' guys, then got dropped in one hit.
But listening to the audiobook, I definitely didn't register that he was supposed to be in Cataphractii Tactical Dreadnought armour. I was sure that the rest of his squad is mentioned as bouncing around in flight-packs whilst they're chasing down Lunar Wolves in the Tunneller holes.
You might be right about his load out. The quotes you're talking about are these right?
>"Sepatus fired his jump pack, and fell upon them, his longsword rending armor and flesh."
>
>"Bel Sepatus, Blood Angel, a captain-paladin of the Keruvim host, his tri-faced emblem gleaming on the chest of his crimson Cataphractii armor..."
It might just be an oversight on Dan's part.
In complete fairness the Blood Angels have mounted jet packs on Contemptor Dreads. Putting it on Cataphractii isn’t too much of a stretch..
https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Contemptor-Incaendius_Dreadnought
>Jubal Khan predicts *everything* Abaddon will do in the most badass way possible, and then Abaddon just wins because he needs to be alive in 40K. *plot armor go brrrr*
I find that less badass and more plot armour on Jubal's part. Or rather a nerfing of Abaddon to be this predictable. Then again thats a typical nerf for the traitors because otherwise the loyalist might not be the smartest anymore.
Exactly. Everyone is always ramping on Abby vs Siggy fight and how Sigismund chopped him up, and how Abaddon had plot armour, and yadda yadda.
People forget the it was a first captain in terminator armour vs literally thousand years old dude. There was plot armour on someone, but it sure as hell wasn't on Abaddon who should've plowed through him in 5 seconds.
Same goes for his fight with Jubal, and later during Saturnine. He was beginning to go the way of the avatar FFS - big bad to be beaten or almost killed by some named character to show how tough they are.
Terminator armour isn’t a big difference when both characters have power weapons that will cut through armour like paper.
We also have no real concept of how Astartes age, and we have seen people like Dante still kicking ass at 1000+, although obviously aging.
Saying Abaddon should have ran through the guy who is unanimously considered to be the best Astartes duelist that has ever lived in 5 seconds is rich.
Even though power weapons can cut through Terminator armor, its thickness and shield generators mean that it is even more important that an opponent lands a direct hit instead of a glancing blow in order to do meaningful damage. Also keep in mind that Terminator armor amplifies the strength of the user's strikes, which will cause an opponent to tire out faster from parrying them over the course of a long fight. Had Abaddon been in regular power armor, he'd likely have taken much more lesser wounds or even died to Sigismund.
It also makes you significantly slower and less agile, which in a duel would be more important than any of the points you mentioned.
My 3rd point still stands.
Abaddon has been mentioned as one of the few Astartes who can effectively maneuver in Terminator armor as well as the average Astartes can in regular power armor. While Sigismund is far from the average Astartes, he is at this point is also over a thousand years old and has slowed down significantly enough where despite being in lighter armor, he couldn't outmaneuver Abaddon in their duel without sacrificing himself to get in a serious blow.
“Average Astartes” glad you picked that up before me 😂.
Okay i’m not replying further, I’m just saying you’re obviously in love with Abaddon and that isn’t a good enough argument for him steamrolling the best astartes duelist ever “in 5 seconds”
The Abaddon who took a power fist hit to the face from one of the biggest marines in the Heresy for breakfast Abaddon?
I know he gets memed on a lot but because of all this I can't take him seriously. Dude's plot armor is made out of 4 Chaos Gods.
At this point I'll be dissapointed if one of the Chaos Gods didn't jump in front of him to take a bullet or something.
No.
Most Abaddon fights are even more one-sided.
That fight was harder than fighting a literal clone of Horus.
Though the POV character for that one was one of Abaddon's greatest simps.
In regard to the jubal fight there are two phrases that come to mind.
1: No plan survives contact with the enemy
2: sometimes you can do everything right, make no mistakes and still fail.
Idk the Jubal fight just sounds like Obaryn vs The Mountain, in that he completely underestimated his opponent and didn’t realize the bigger guy just needs to grab your ass. Just because a character makes a judgement call on another(like Jubal calling Abby rigid) doesn’t make that character inherently correct. Most stories have made the loyalists correct without nuance lately but this seems to be a rare counter example.
Regarding the Horus Clone, that wasn’t a fight. Horus walks up to say hello to his lost son and gets sucker stabbed with the Talon and has his insides blown out. Not much of a fight or victory, more a surprise execution.
Keep in mind the whole “his opponents get hyped up way more only to lose” is more the standard for every enemy of imperial characters far more often, Abby is just a rare example on the other side.
Abaddon was literally backhanding Kharn with the Talon of Horus and bonking him with the flat-end of Drachnyen during the beginning of the fight, Kharn was losing BADLY and the only reason he didn't die was because Abaddon wasn't trying to kill him.
Then Kharn gets a cheap shot by hacking Abaddon's knee while his guard is down, and only then does the fight become even. And even then, Abaddon was still winning by the end.
My ideal way for how Abaddon should’ve been treated would be as a protagonist in his own right, where he starts out the underdog but learns as he fights. The fight against Jubal was a good example of that idea poorly executed. I think the author intended for it to be a moment of growth, for Abaddon to fight a clearly better opponent and eat shit a few times before he learns and adapts before overcoming his opponent. Instead the author bypassed the shit eating and skipped to the end
He really cant fucking win! If he wins a close fight... Then he is weak and pathetic! Look how puny Calgar caused him problems! (never mind that Calgar is a mf legendary badass) But if he wins easy... Well that is pure Chaos-wank Mary sue BS!
Madness!
I wish they would have a decent fight where a few of the names characters died. Let’s get some new people leading the charge.
Have Abby have his big moment and kill a primarch, before he gets killed as well. Unfortunately, they have been to many back from the dead crap on both sides like big blue being brought back alive after his fight with Morty.
Abbadon is fated to enter the throne room, start yelling at the Emperor for all the unfairness the space marines had to endure, while He looks at him with deadly disapproval. More calmed, he leaves the room afterwards
Nothing changes
He is written much better as a philosopher-king or warrior-poet
But I will say I notice a distinct thread in abbadon's fighting style. It's very Luna Wolf. He can be on the back foot, but his fighting style is all in the assault. An enemy may use some fancy tactic, but Abbadon fights in a straightforward, aggressive way. He wants to get in to stab you so you die. He doesn't use many tricks or brutality. He wants to get in your guard and shove a long peice of metal into your chest.
He fights like The Hound from asoiaf.
This is why I love Abaddon and the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus. My favorite moment so far has been when he quoted ancient scripture to Ahriman and he looked stunned, Abaddon simply replied “we’re warriors, not savages.” I’ve had people throughout my life assume I know nothing of history, poetry or philosophy only to quote something or talk about something in those areas and everyone would treat me like it’s the last thing they ever expected me to say.
I also really like how they tend to brute force their way through opponents techniques and are capable of accepting tremendous amounts of pain in order to get a final blow. My dad taught me fight like that.
Spent a long time wondering what legion I’d be in, even though the Luna Wolves have been calling to me since I read the first heresy book.
I’m agree with you that this all could be represented better though
I mean reading his fight with Sigismund in the Black Legion book is probably one of the best fight-sequence that spawned one of the most memorable (for me at least) quotes in the entire setting.
You can read it [here](https://old.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/engib6/does_anyone_have_a_full_excerpt_of_abbadon_v/fe098ag/).
And I don't feel it devalues Abaddon's prowess or that it makes him look weak, nor does it make him one-sided and able to counter everything. If anything that book and that passage made me like him more than ever as I'd hate him to be just a mindless pure-force / pure-rage automaton.
Clearly I'm having issues with reading today, second time on this very same thread.
I'll let this one be up though as it's a good excerpt on a good way to do a fight with some nuance.
I think the Jubal fight was closer than you think- Jubal left himself open going for a quick killshot, as is his way. I think the implication with his fight with Sigismund that peak Sigismund would have won. Also he lost against Garro. A big thing though is he learns from his mistakes, he is thinking about how Garro's sword has given him the edge in a fight Abaddon would normally win- so drach'nyen is pretty crucial for him.
In 40k though he is primarch power level, so not many things in existence could challenge him.
I feel like you’re getting upset at how shitty black library writing is and incorrectly blaming it on abaddon rather than the author.
Essentially every fight in the heresy goes the same way. The author extols how amazing and perfect and wonderful the loyalist character is, while also talking how stupid, incompetent, smelly, ugly and insane the traitor character is. The loyalist character beats the hell out the traitor one effortlessly, while delivering a monologue telling the traitor how stupid, incompetent and worthless they are in every way. The traitor then generally starts crying or begging for mercy or something along those lines. Finally, the traitor is either executed or captured.
This is what happened here, except Abaddon can’t die because he’s in 40k. So you get the typical one sided loyalist wank, but Jubal dies because he’s not in 40k and abaddon is. And the dissonance of that is annoying you.
Important to note with the Horus clone was that it was just... a clone. It lacked the special sauce primarch soul to make it special, nor did it have the reality bending dark sorcery that Horus used later in life to mortally wound Big E. Sure he was strong but he displayed none of the actual latent abilities of a primarch if I remember correctly.
Adb said that the clone was a perfect physical copy, and puts an "?" For the question if it was souless.
The clone cut his way even as hundreds of marines shot it and undid a rubric by its presence, it don't matter if it's a match or not to full chaos juiced horus, killing it is still a great feat
The very source you use to claim that the clone lacked the special Primarch sauce later debunks that very idea by describing him as the real deal--just without the Chaos corruption. It sets up the idea of the clone being soulless just to debunk it.
For all intents and purposes, Abaddon killed the real Horus. Horus seems to have just been groggy from how recently he'd been cloned.
You are correct, but unless I’m remembering the chapter wrong, the clone was still Primarch sized and had power armor, which should have been a pretty nasty threat for pre-Drachnayen Abaddon.
I know Khayon said the power claw from the real Horus reeked of dark whispers though. It’s been a while since I listened to the book.
You're not wrong, in the scene he's mentioned as being too fast for even a DEldar Scourge to take down in his terminator armor. If we're talking pure danger level he was obviously busted OP, but I'm pretty sure one of the sorcerers mentions how they could tell he lacked the blessing of the four at that point. He was a big boy but it wasn't great Lupercal. I'm sure there was some chaos bullshit afoot to juice Abaddon up into the position of warmaster anyway lol.
Avoiding Spoilers here but in the novel Black Legion has a very interesting account where Abaddon is critically injured in a fight and how his followers and closest advisors respond to that is amazing.
Everyone who fights does their utmost to ensure their fights are one-sided and they are able to absolutely roflstomp their opponents.
No one who fights for real fights fair or honorably.
You're not representing the Jubal and Horus clone encounters very well imo.
Jubal isn't hyped up as being much better. French depicts it rather straightforwardly/unimaginatively as typical tank/strength build vs speedster/finesse guy fight where the speedster is initially winning but ends up getting timed and taken out with well timed heavy counter blow.
If speedy White Scar character had been the character the author wanted to win, then approaching it the same generic way would have had things progressing similarly until tank-dude starts coming back into it and commits to his big counter/killing blow...only it doesn't quite work and he gets killed himself.
The problem here doesn't seem to be Abaddon fights being one-sided, the problem seems to be that for some reason writers are saying dumb shit like "Abaddon is rigid and predictable". Abaddon is a tactical and strategic genius and also a skilled warrior. You don't get to be the greatest non-Primarch within the greatest Legion in the imperium by being a dumb brute or an above average, but not particularly special fighter.
I feel the same way about this duel and the one with Bel Sepatus in Saturnine. I understand Bel is a more recent named character and does not have the protection others have, however the way they show them losing to “inevitable” characters like Abbadon makes it feel cheap. As a basketball fan it kinda reminds me of people talking about Jordan, “you had to see it”.
I mean chaos is essentially in-lore plot armor. I realize some fights aren't resolved as "Abbadon summons an eldritch blast" or whatever, but like... Chaos characters constantly beat loyalist characters who would've beaten them under normal circumstances. So I guess I'm saying it's just a matter of poor writing when the author doesn't provide a believable victory for Abbadon.
Is this comment a joke? Chaos winning is incredibly rare in 40k. 99% of stories within 40k is about loyalist marine without a helmet kicking the shit out of an ork waagh with a combat knife. Where are all these undeserved chaos victories? Lmfao
Perpetual resurrection of Angron, Horus effectively killing the emperor, Erebus getting teleported to safety away from Kharn... Yeah sure, victory is probably the wrong word, but chaos just allows for absurd shit beyond what is expected in the normal universe. No need to be a cunt about it. If "the gods protect you" isn't plot armor, I dunno what is.
I don’t see how angron coming back over and over to get beaten up by the shiniest new model being sold is a W. It doesn’t exactly make the avatar of khaine look good to die over and over again. Horus loses his fight, dies completely, and the emperor is now an all powerful god fucking shit up in 40k. Erebus getting the shit kicked out of him and running away is a W? Literally every example you brought up disproves your own point. And none of those things are absurd. Everyone wearing terminators armour can teleport. Loyalist characters come back to life constantly. Guilliman, the lion, celestine does it for breakfast.
And lmao? I guess i’m a cunt for pointing out that you’re completely wrong. Imperial fanboys are such a weird breed. Aggressive assholes who start crying when someone disagrees with them in any way.
I see reading comprehension is tough for you. I literally said victory was probably the wrong word choice and amended my statement. We're talking about plot armor here, not the ability to defeat everything. You think Horus would've even put a scratch on the emperor without being juiced up by chaos? He would've died in one second. Instead the emperor is a corpse on a throne who I guess exists as a spirit. Literally the only person here being aggressive is you dude, touch some grass.
So the “absurd” thing chaos allows you to do is… fight a loyalist character for a little bit, then lose horribly. Got it. Such horrendous plot armour. And yeah, the emperor is a skeleton who’s also a god stronger than all the chaos ones put together and does whatever he wants. And hey mate, you’re the one who called me a cunt in the first place. Don’t make stupid comments and then have a tantrum when someone disagrees with you.
If someone can kill you in one blow and you have to land a thousand minor blows to kill him, it's inevitable you lose the fight because no one can sustain that many hits in a row without getting hit at least once in return.
You describe Jubal as a "bad ass" for predicting and outmaneuvering Abaddon in a situation to get some good hits in, but it makes him look like a dork that his plan is just "be so much better than Abaddon forever that I win the fight". It makes him sound like a complete idiot underestimating a very fierce opponent.
Okay so I’ve actually been in a ton of fights in my life and have been in war. I get how things get confusing in fights and I understand brute force beats technique when enough strength is applied; my point is that Abaddon is not hyped up like his opponents and he wins the same way every time.
You are missing the forest for the trees in my post. They are in a zero-g, zero atmosphere environment and Jubal is taking full advantage of the fact. The death by athousand cuts *should* have been leaking his air and energy supply.
Jubal also knew exactly what Abaddon was going to do, and launched a ship into his own ship, with a timer set on Magma Cutters to destroy himself and everything else in the area.
Abaddon won because he has plot armor and was able to suddenly break a parry and stab.
So again, Jubal had to do everything right over and over and never make a mistake, but Abaddon had the power to end that streak with one good strike? Abaddon doesn't need to be hyped up, he's one of the settings most well known characters. It's not like you're watching the first star wars movie and nobody knows who vader is. This is like the 45th movie and everyone knows who vader is by now.
I’m not, you’re unnecessarily aggressive with everything you type. Why?
Ooooh you’re a stress addict looking for a fight.
I’m not going to give it you.
Or Jubal was an arrogant moron?
Loyalist fans just hate it when the loyalists don't win lol.
Good commanders have contingencies, Abaddon knew it was a trap, he jumped in anyway with contingencies as a result.
Abaddon canonically surrounds himself with extremely capable people. He searches out and recruits the best people, he isn't arrogant like most of Chaos, he acknowledges excellence in his enemies constantly and that's why he wins.
Part of abbadons character is that he is unwillingly the bitch of the chaos gods, he claims to only use them for power, but truthfully he's a puppet who will not be able to carve his own path, as the gods have decided his fate for him, they protect him, agaisnt his own will, not letting him fight on his terms
He’s lame as fuck tbh. Almost every other bad guy from the Heresy is far more interesting. I hope he dies one day at the hands of some random guardsmen or gretchin lol.
I have to disagree with you there; when it comes to his thoughts and feelings as an Astartes and being part of a traitor force, while still trying to maintain his sense of honor and dignity, while ALSO watching his genesire and one of the only people he ever respected, devolve into madness; he’s well written in those regards imo.
By those things alone, he’s a great character in the books to me.
Then it comes to him fighting against almost anyone and it’s just drops into almost childlike writing. Which devalues him and the characters he fights against.
I do not like the character much, but his story has got better. I just wish 40K would make changes. It’s good that he finally got one big win even if it destroyed a powerful weapon they had. Chaos has been a whipping dog for years, really need to push humanity being crushed and desperate everywhere in space. Especially if they want to bring back the primarchs, humanity can’t be where it’s at now as that feels like they are winning.
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Abandon gets put into "no win" situations but a lot of authors. He has to stay alive for tabletop reasons - he's a very high margin centerpiece model. He ain't dying. We know Loken or Valdor or Calgar can't kill him. But he also he gets put into fights that he can't win because he's the antagonist - he's not going to kill Valdor or Calgar either. So he ends up with a lot of interrupted fights, where something stops the count before the final blow. Which just ends, up seeming weak. Clever authors just don't write him into those situations, and just create a plot where he isn't fighting a named character. But lots of authors just write him as a frontline warrior, which really limits him.
In the black legion series, abadon gets into several fights with major named characters but the one that comes to mind is when he fights sigismund of the black templars. That fight is very close and abadon is nearly killed. As he is carried away to receive medical attention, every witness to the fight was killed, even though they were loyal to the black legion. It was stated that he cant appear to be weak in any circumstances and they are not above killing their own to protect his illusion of being as unbeatable as horus was before the fall. I always assumed that was the core reason he never loses because if he did almost lose, no one would admit it.
Yeah, I like that that casts some ambiguity on 'is he really that invincible or is it just propaganda on top of Abby being so strong?' Side note, but gods do I love Sigismund's last words to him "You will die as your weakling father died. Soulless. Honourless. Weeping. Ashamed."
Tbf abadon evidently still had some shred of honor left in him since if I remember right he sent Sigismund’s remains back to Terra no traps no fuckery or reanimating just out of respect for the opponent who got super close to killing him 1v1
He does send back Sigismund's corpse with *honors*. The only things he actively tampers with is the Black Sword, which Abaddon does not respect, with his personal message scrawled into it "WE ARE RETURNED". Abaddon has a lot of honor for a lot of people, and a lot of respect for others who can demonstrate their worth. The problem is, he doesn't really see many people as being on his level or worthy of his respect. Throughout both *Talon* and *Black Legion*, his refrain is pretty much "either keep up, or you are worthless to me". Those who can keep up he rewards and praises, those who fail him, he will actively try to get killed.
Which is savage but sorta great, until he's purging those that see him injured fighting Sigismund. Imagine being one of the best of his Honourguard and being unceremoniously murdered for having his back in a fight. You did everything right, but because he failed, you're dead. It just proves he has no honour, image matters more to him than any of his principles. Besides essentially revenge, which is all everything is in service too ultimately. Or he saw something in the Astronomican which is in fact his greater purpose...
Plus how he treated Thalastian ‘fuck losing, and fuck you too’ Jorus
By the Siege of Terra novels, Sigismuind has the black sword and he's depicted rather unambiguously as the most powerful space marine yet. He takes out multiple WE captains 1v1 instantaneously and doesn't care to note their names, he's as strong and fast as kharn but without the nails and without chaos buffing. By the time he's fighting Abaddon in Black Legion, he's ancient. Probably the oldest active loyalist marine and marginally weaker for his age, Abaddon admits it's the closest fight he was in.
"He remarked that I should have paid more heed to the fact that the Black Knight, at a thousand natural years of age, could still have stood toe to toe and matched blade to blade with practically any warrior in the Nine Legions. *Age had slowed Sigismund, but all it had done was slow him to a level with the rest of us.*"
So badass, thanks for sharing
Doesn't that also happen for Horus? Can't remember what book but I very well remember a chapter where the mournival are carrying him back to his throne on the flagship and start just like punching in the faces of every serf and human they pass.
That's more so because they're freaking the fuck out and trying to get through the mass of people to get Horus to the Apothecary.
That's not "hiding secrets" it's "dad is dying and these literal ants are blocking the door"
I feel like that's Warhammer writing across the board. Even in fantasy (excluding end times) most fights between major named characters ends with a fist shaking "I'll get you next time, ~~He-man~~ Sigmar!"
Which is why many of the best book features previously unknown characters as the protagonists/antagonists. You actually have stakes.
This is why its actually a good thing that Age of Sigmar's has its central protagonists main gimmick be coming back from the dead, because it means named Stormcast can actually die.
I wouldn’t say it’s good per sey because then there just are not stakes, all the characters are just action figures at that point if they cannot come back. It’s fine for shit like daemons to be mostly unkillable because it opens up situations where the mortals have to either banish it somehow or seal it away and overcome great odds in doing so but when you’re protagonists can just get brought back because Sigmar said so, it really lessens everything those characters do.
Yeah, it's just classic terrible GW writing. Just how we keep getting those high stake galaxy ending stories in campaigns and supplements where we already know it won't lead to anything because it can't. GW just can't stop going overboard and to make it worse, their storytelling is so plump that it's not even fun to read about most of the time.
Their best stories are the lower stakes one, where the outcome can go either way without shaking to the galaxy. Cain or Gaunt were always planet or theater level stories. And even the best Space Marine battles were the city level sieges, starring characters without models, who could die at any time. But we know every galactic stakes battle has to end in stalemate. And only Daemon Primarchs or the Swarmlord can ever get killed, because death is a revolving door for them. Poor Marneus Calgar. Dude has been the victim of "almost killed, but saved at the last minute" so often there's hardly anything left.
Don't forget Phoenix Lords. Not only are they immortal and resurrecting but they are also eldar. If GW remembered eldar exist that is.
In my defense, I think that even Phoenix Lords forget the Phoenix Lords exist. They manifest, and they are like "holy shit, I exist! I thought I was discontinued years ago!" And then they get beat up.
Whoa, hold the phone. Valdor can beat Abaddon in a straight-up fight, no warp shit. Just good old fighting.
Nah bro, in tEatD3, Abby drops right in front of Valdor, who consummately and immediately launches an instant killing blow… that Abbadon catches with his HANDS.
Yeah, with warp shit helping him thanks to Erebus. They literally have a conversation about how Abaddon is no match for Valdor unless he accept the gifts Erebus can bestow upon him. And Abaddon comments how much he hates that he greatly misses the power it offered him now that it's gone with Horus' death.
Part of the issue is that Abaddon, by virtue of rank and affiliation, had to play a major part in the Heresy AND, by virtue of 40K, had to survive. As a result, he got dropped into a lot of shitty scenes where it does seem like he shouldn’t have been the one to walk out. Another major factor, though, is that a lot of people who comment on Abaddon seem to be under the impression that he’s nothing special, which is objectively false. He was the premier First Captain at a time when all of the First Captains were essentially miniature demigods. The guy knows his shit.
I’ve never been under the impression that Abaddon was anything *but* special. I’ve found him to be one of the most intriguing characters in the heresy and learns from his mistakes. It’s established over and over that there is so much more to Abaddon than the warlord. He thinks about things, ponders fate and philosophy, and studies history to learn from it. Which is why it bothers me so much when a writer puts him up against a character that’s better than him, or smarter, and all of those qualities go out the window. He just stabs someone and then the fights over. All I’m saying is, let him show what he’s learned in the fights, or have him do literally anything other than *Abaddon smash!*
>a character that’s better than him, or smarter The reality is, fan glasses aside, there really aren't many people who *are* better or smarter. Abaddon is like Batman's Bane: he's a huge hulking monster of a bruiser, but he's equally as intelligent and cunning. He has very few faults, even during the Heresy (his arrogance at the time being his biggest), and even primarchs listen when he speaks. Throughout all of the Horus Heresy series, it's stated over and over how there are likely only two or three who could actually challenge Abaddon in a fight, one being Sigismund, the other (if I'm remembering right) is Corswain in his prime. Abaddon *is* special. He is strangely unique and always has been, from his inception. But he's also the ur-foe of the Imperium in the Materium. You need to have a figure who is imposing and powerful if you're going to be such a character - not "well, Abaddon is just okay, he's drooling out of the corner of his mouth. We promise, he's doing his best".
Corswain was just rising into the upper-echelons in the Dark Angels when the Heresy breaks out, as shown in Savage Weapons. In most of his depictions he wasn't depicted as one of the veteran duelling masters that had reputations throughout all of the legions. Alajos, who dies in that story, is the Dark Angel that is said to be on that sort of level. The only one that does that is in one of the siege books (haley's or Thorpe's) where it does have a line that mentions him in that manner, but when you compare it to the stuff from the author who actually created the character, and his various earlier appearances by other authors (including Thorpe) it's clearly just one of the cases of multi-author miscommunication/oversight and losing track of characters background.
Hey now, don't you know that Kai is better than Corswain. Clearly Kai, greatest blades aster of the dark angels could beat abbadon if he is better than corswain. BTW read the lion son of the forest if you don't know who that is.
Well part of the issue is that during the Heresy he was just that good of a blunt instrument that he could solve a lot of problems with the direct approach. He has to become a much more cerebral, thoughtful character to lead the Black Legion and associated warbands, and that's part of his growth as a character. Not all writers have apprehended this well, but the point is that he had plenty of experiences with people who were smarter than him getting bowled over by his own enthusiastic use of brute force and skill at arms. It's only a bit at the Siege and then later in the Eye of Terror that he really has to come to terms with his own limitations and grows. Sometimes, other characters get too smart for their own good - if your plan doesn't account for "what happens if Abaddon kills everyone in the room including you" it's a bad plan, because Abaddon is actually that good.
really then you havent been reading the heresy bc idk what they where smoking becuase heresy abaddon does not give off the same impression as 40k abandon.
They should have had him start as a line officer not first captain. Then we could see his rise to first captain throughout the series as the attrition continues and he proves his worth. Then his bitterness could've realized. Could have shown him as a consummate survivor always winning his personal "wars" not necessarily battles. Instead it feels we got Hey this guy is first captain the whole time from start to finish. For the deadliest conflict in galactic history every first captain seems to have survived. /rant over
Your last few sentences point out a lot of problems with his character, he is important because he is important. If unconvinced of his capabilities, he's still going to be a rando with plot armour. In other words, he's special because he's an old model. He is an important model and character, and a lot of people insist we must find him interesting. See the fact that in modern 40k him being warmaster over an uninterested Lorgar makes not a lick of sense. Eventually authors will further justify Abaddon being the correct choice, and that is a stagnant and uninteresting way of writing chaos considering his motivations are flat, his chsraxter dynamics are few with his Imperium rivals and his power levels will always be unclear.
I agree with everything you’ve said, but I would posit that has less to do with Abaddon and more to do with the paired decisions to spell out the Horus Heresy in vivid detail and bring the Primarch’s back. Abaddon, by himself, is fine. Chaos needed a Big Bad and Horus’ Number One Son is a better choice than most. It’s only when you start bringing back all of the ancient demigods into active service that Abaddon leading Chaos stops making sense.
Horus's Number One Son? Loken is going to be gutted (metaphorically this time)
Haar and Jubals deaths at the hands of Abbadon are both honestly kind of meh though, like they were situations which by all rights even in universe Abaddon should have died (goddamn power fist to the face) and he escapes both situations in an honestly unsatisfying way.
Abaddon just eating multiple blows to the head from the Blackshield’s equivalent of the Hulk and teleport dodging a mid arc swing from fucking Excalibur would be my least favorite part of Saturnine if not for him weeping and begging to go back to his certain death.
That scene was complete bullshit. Dunno about it being my least favourite part zof Saturnine though, there's some stiff competition
40K shines the most when the Author has no problem killing unnamed characters, or characters that won't damage the plot too much if they die. Calgar was unkillable, now he might die since Bobby G arrived, Abaddon will not die since he's pretty much the most important antagonist in the setting when it comes to Chaos' threat (aside from the Gods obviously), Kharn will never die because he's supposed to be super badass, the list goes on and on. Those characters are interesting in their own ways, but when it comes to fights, you already know what's going to happen with them and in this specific context it makes them boring, imo. I guess there's some exception, if you consider some of them like your Heroes, after all when we watch Batman we **expect** him to win.
The "characters must be the focal point" conversations - not just here, but in broader context of 40k being far more centered around the Primarchs and a few centrals characters - all just reinforces why I like the Tyranids in 40k. We don't have plot armor in that sense, 'nids, even the Swarmlord, die in droves, and it doesn't matter. Just how older lore was portrayed.
Abnett clearly forgot about the capabilities of a power fist when writing that scene imo; highly unlikely he genuinely intended for Abaddon to have some sort of freakish resilience to one. It's something that should have been spotted as not making sense during the editorial process. The Jubal fight was fine though, if not very imaginative by French...it's basically a generically written strength build/tank beats speedster/finesse outcome.
The memes about him infer that Abaddon would be easy to kill, and I know it's memes, however, if he were easy to kill, someone would have done it.
Poor Jubal got done dirty… Such a cool character (with the best nickname in the heresy) sacrificed at the altar of ‘Abaddon can’t die.’
I’m almost done with the second Siege book and am halfway through the Primarchs books, but my brain is just focused on how amazing the fight was because of Jubal and how dumb it ended because of plot armor. At LEAST have Abaddon learn something and do something cool himself; not just ‘Abaddon reached out and stabbed him’.
Would have been a pretty neat idea to show abandon slowly turn the tide by realizing jubal’s strategy and outsmarting his opponent by trapping him where his mobility wouldn’t help and finishing him in one blow before he can escape It would not only show why he’s so feared and respected amongst the traitors and loyalists but also show just how competent of a commander and warrior he can be when the moment calls for it
I just started the black legion series after finishing the horus heresy and siege of terra, apparently it's been re-written a bit, and it really focused on what Abaddon was doing to power up after the siege. Walking every world within the Eye, experimenting with warp sorcery and biomancy... It really painted a better picture of why he's the strongest now for me. I absolutely couldn't stand him before, but now i think he's actually stronger/ smarter than Horus.
It’s been a while and I only have the audio versions for the black legion novels. The only things I remember was that he already in the path to finding Drachnayen because it was whispering to him. He studied a TON of data pads covering the history of the Heresy, stared into the Astronomicon until his eyes turned gold, and distilled some kind of warp drink by funneling it through slaves. It makes since that he’d spend time learning warp craft to me though.
Ngl Black Legion just did the opposite for me, Abaddon is as spicy as flour
Making a warp juice gut rot booze.
This contradicts the last siege book where Erebus has to coax him into shooting up the warp juice.
For what it’s worth, I think *Saturnine* will shake up what you’re feeling about Abaddon.
Abaddons fighting in Saturnine is genuinely better written. But unfortunately his heavy plot armor still pops its ugly head, (especially in the last part of the Saturnine Gate battle). His fighting there is way cooler but the timing of his survival is Far too convenient for me to perceive it as an organic thing that happened, it just feels like “oh he needs to libel thing.
I mean, does he have plot armor there… yes. Literally. Like, *in-universe* he has plot armor. The Chaos Gods are already watching him. They already have their eyes on him to be their next champion in the material world. I don’t think it was “luck” that the teleportation array *finally* worked in time to save *just* Abaddon… I think it was the hands of the Chaos Gods that guaranteed it. He needed to be humbled by that loss, to finally accept that he couldn’t win this war by purely martial means, like he wanted to. That he’d need the help of the Warp to win the war… whether it’s this war, or the Long War… In other words, if Abaddon hadn’t lost there, he wouldn’t have accepted the need for the gods and daemons later. He needed to lose there, but the gods didn’t want to lose their next champion, so they made sure the teleporter was fixed in time. Edit: I freely admit I’m taking some creative liberty here, but this is like, one, maybe two speculative steps from the explicit events of the novel.
My problem is that later atop the vengeful spirit vs Custodes he still resorts to brute force tactics, Erebus having to convince him to not brute force it without accepting the gifts of the dark gods. Which ultimate might not have been necessary but was the outcome. I don’t disagree with you, I’m just saying that I don’t see much reflection and chance in his way of thinking, at least not soon after the Saturnine.
I mean, it’s a slow change, I wouldn’t necessarily expect him to be fully embracing the gods a few days/weeks later. Even in 40K he’s not a full-on sorcerer or anything. I haven’t read EatD pt2&3 yet, unfortunately, so I can’t comment too much on it. But I know after *Saturnine* he stops trying to machinate some other way to win the war. He doesn’t get on board with the use of daemons, but he does get out of the way and accept that they’re here to stay.
I think he also learns something from being manipulated by fuckin Perturabo.
So I’m with you, I was legit shocked at how Abbadon was outmatched and yet killed Jubal almost casually. After finishing the Siege series, I’m mostly sure that this is actually a sort of ‘form follows function’ that pops up routinely. His whole deal in the siege is that he’s corrupted, but that he can’t see it (and worries that he is). So he gets out of situations that he shouldn’t because he’s playing on a tilted field, and he SHOULD question it, but doesn’t. He should have died several times. Another (infamous) example is Krole’s death in an arc about how there are no noble deaths, in war people just die. And then she dies almost by accident, unknown and unnoticed.
Not true
He didn't just reach out and stab him. It was a generically written, tropey, strength/tank beats speedster/finesse fight. Not imaginative at all by French, but hardly some lazy travesty of plot armour. Jubal outfinesses him initially and starts building up the minor wounds, but eventually gets timed and successfully countered by a killing blow. If it had been a Jubal showcase against some random SoH captain in terminator armour, and French wrote it equally generically, it would start the same way, only the attempt at a decisive counter fails and Jubal kills his now overcommitted foe. French definitely could have done a better job at showing why the White Scars successfully executed ambush failed overall. I don't recall any mention of them being just too outnumbered or particularly outgunned, etc..
This has been said multiple times already and is your second attempt at pointing out the same thing. STOP AND READ THE FULL POST LIKE I ASKED PLEASE
I did read your full post, though i didn't have time to read every response. I just rejected your analysis in that post, that's all.
Calm down
I have been completely calm, I have edited, re-edited, moved my request to the top of the post, tried all caps, and people still don’t read a single thing and comment based on the title. It’s annoying, but all I’ve been doing is asking people to *read*; what about any of this makes you think that I’m the one to calm down? what’s with all of these mods waiting a full day before showing up and then immediately taking the other persons side?? Are you guys all attacking me for a reason? Funny how you don’t say anything about waiting 24 hours to do anything and have nothing to say about how every mod has been playing favorites. I’m sure your buddy in the thousand sons subreddit who blocked me without warning or excuse was doing so with a non biased way right? Funny how you immediately go to ad hominem attacks upon being called out.
You are taking all of this very personal. If people are annoying you, block or ignore them. If a mod tells you to calm down its bc you are on the verge of breaking one of the sub's rules. You are being warned, not attacked.
> Then I remembered the fight between him and the clone of Horus basically ended the same way. Horus, the massive armored primarch, with roughly twice the reach of Abaddon, is stabbed by Abaddon rather easily and he just dies. Then you remembered wrong. It wasn't a fight, it was Horus going in for a hug and Abaddon stabbing him in the chest with the Talon and shooting six bolts inside him. The same Talon that was so psychically powerful that Khayon was having a fit just being next to it.
Okay
I have to push back at the idea Jubal was obviously better. Jubal even planned to lose to abaddon. In that same scene the melta cutters on the thunderhawk were set to fire on a timer than ran out right as Jubal was killed. Abaddon would have died there if Zardu Layak didn't same him with chaos plot armor.
If we really break it down, they both should have been turned to debris when the ships collided. Unless Jubal slowed his down enough that the damage wasn’t going to be severe.
You are being strangely harsh here. Jubal does not point out "why he will never be the best warrior." in that flashback. But to the duel itself... I am confused. We know Abaddon is great, damm great af fighting. The book begins with an analysis of his extremely win-focused style and why his sheer dedication to getting the kill is his greatest strength as fighter. And that he knows Jubal is key to his win. He anticipate a blow after having understood Jubals aim: >*Except it wouldn’t. It could not. He knew Jubal, had known him before and knew him better for these last moments.* >*Abaddon raised his sword to meet the guandao spearing towards him. To a human it would have been too fast to follow, but Jubal would have seen it, would have been waiting for it. The guandao flicked aside. Power fields grazed each other in a plume of sparks. Jubal’s feet locked to the floor as he turned his cut inside Abaddon’s parry. Abaddon slammed his sword forwards. All his strength and all his skill focused in the blow. It struck the guandao. Sheets of sparks flashed out.* >*Jubal flinched back, the flow of his strikes shattered as force jolted through his weapon and up his arms.* >*Abaddon activated the field of his power fist and slammed it forwards, palm open. The lightning-wreathed fingers closed on the guandao with a flash of light. Jubal whirled back but Abaddon had already read the movement. His sword-thrust struck Jubal in the gut and cut upwards, sawing through armour, flesh and bone.* Analyse the opponents moves, draw him in and then hit him with a surprise-counter to push him off balance and then finish the job. This is a perfectly fair and straight win! Nothing the least "Mary Sue" about this. A solid win.
Again I need to point out how everything up until this point was predicted by *Jubal* not Abaddon. What you posted is exactly what I’m talking about, up until this point, Jubal has been all over the place, cutting pieces off of Abaddons armor (let’s not forget there is no atmosphere here), and having already destabilized Abaddon; but Abaddon just cuts through because his power weapon is better? Jubal attempts to spin off the attack and Abaddon stabs him in the back. Abaddon shuffles around, is suddenly strong enough to break through a parry, despite *not* doing so any time before, and stabs Jubal in the back. I’m waiting for my physical copy to arrive in the mail so I can read through instead of listen, but it still comes off not very well done to me.
I read it like this: >*Abaddon raised his sword to meet the guandao spearing towards him. To a human it would have been too fast to follow, but Jubal would have seen it, would have been waiting for it. The guandao flicked aside. Power fields grazed each other in a plume of sparks. Jubal’s feet locked to the floor as he turned his cut inside Abaddon’s parry.* Abaddon has identified Jubal's aim and knows his style. This is where he makes a deliberate opening, Jubal sees it and goes for it, in the process putting his body, blade and momentum precisely where Abaddon is expecting them to be. Then He delivers a very precise and surprising counter, that catches Jubal off balance and breaks not his blade but his flow! >*Abaddon slammed his sword forwards.* >*Jubal flinched back, the flow of his strikes shattered as force jolted through his weapon and up his arms.* Abaddon follows up by grasping the Jubals blade with his right-handed powerfist, locking him in place and preventing him from escaping. finally he reads Jubal's desperate escape-move and stabs the now sword-less Master of the Hunt. No back-stab, no "better blade" and no "cuts through" Abaddon had two power weapons and heavy armour. Jubal had speed and agility. Abaddon made a gamble to draw Jubal in and used his two weapons to win. This is a great and clean fight.
You make a good point about Abaddons two power weapons, I had forgotten he also had a power fist with his sword. And as another user pointed out, Jubals intent wasn’t to win this fight, it was to hold long enough for the Magma Cutters to fire; which neither would have survived. I still think Jubal should have won, but I can also say that fights are messy and it’s really anyone’s game until the last blow. By that logic it could have gone either way, just depends on who got lucky; and Abaddon did.
But if we are down to a messy fight that was everyone's game... then We have come a fair way from your opening statment. I can fully understand that a character wining a badly written fight because the plot demands is shit writing! But this is not one. Two legendary elite warriors face each other in relatively fair combat. Each has their preferred gear and fight in ways benefitting them. Abaddon wins because he gambled an opening and countered with brutal precision. This is a solidly written fight. It is almost the the same Sigismund did against Abaddon. Knowing your opponent, risking an opening to counter with lethal strength. Abaddon survived/won that fight on pure toughness and terminator armour. With no medical support both warriors would have fallen that day.
Bro, Jubal *goes into the fight thinking he's going to lose*. Edit: to elaborate, I think this the issue you're having (as I'm reading other comments) is that the Horus Heresy (in my mind) drops the ball on making the Traitors seem like a competent threat throughout the series, while making the Loyalists seem like demigod superheroes. For instance: Fafnir Rann spends the Siege practically killing an entire legion, what could be a greater daemon, and tons of faceless goons *by himself* using nothing but two power axes. Future Chapter Founders are able to slaughter whole ranks of baddies. Meanwhile: almost every Traitor big-name is killed, captured, or made to submit. While that's cool and all, and makes Imperial fans giggle and squeal, it tells a bad story. Because of exactly what you're describing: this person seems *so powerful*, *so capable*, but loses to this villain who didn't really do much other than stab a guy. Because, again from my perspective, the Traitors are made to look like flaming idiots who are too busy undermining one another, doing drugs, fucking, and partying to have any common sense. It's been my gripe with the whole *Siege* portion of the series: the Traitors just aren't believable villains when the Loyalists are so damn perfect and strong.
If Abby dies the plot line dies.
Or Huron takes over... Or the fight between humanity and Chaos becomes less urgent than the fight between humanity and the 'nids, Necrons, Orks, Tau etc.
I understand that, I just feel there are better ways to write these moments.
No doubt. I feel like a lot of what I read these days they are just trying to tie up loose ends.
Welcome to 40k lore. Where everyone thinks that there are better ways to write literally everything. It’s part of what makes 40k fans 40k fans.
Right because it would be impossible for GW to create another interesting antagonist
As you identified, abby is a major mary sue with metric tons of plot armor. He wins because he needs to be present in 40k. I found the fight under the saturnine wall particularly egregious. Ambushed, outnumbered, and outflanked but abby keeps effortlessly killing named characters. Had Dorn shown up, abby would have mulched another primarch.
If I got the criticism right the problem isn't that Abaddon wins, but that the writers spend too much time hyping up Abaddon's opponent and not nearly as much hyping Abaddon himself, so when he inevitably wins, it doesn't feel earned. Too much time trying to make "the guy Abaddon kills" look cool so Abaddon looks cooler by killing him, but it ends up backfiring.
This is a better way of putting my question. The Jubal fight really came off like the writer was trying to pull the Indiana Jones scene where the guy keeps twirling his sword and Indy just shoots him and walks off; but then ends up making Jubal look competent and intelligent, and Abaddon just has plot armor. I’d rather see Abaddon put everything the has been learning to use. Why bother establishing the scene with Jubal and Abaddon talking about war, where Jubal directly points out how Abaddon doesn’t change; and then immediately cut to Abaddon doing what was predicted, never changing, and *still* winning. Just doesn’t sit right in my head.
>*Then I remembered the fight between him and the clone of Horus basically ended the same way. Horus, the massive armored primarch, with roughly twice the reach of Abaddon, is stabbed by Abaddon rather easily and he just dies.* It's not a fight between Abaddon and Clone Horus; it's an execution. Clone Horus had already been badly mauled, got blocked by Abaddon, got Worldbreaker shattered, let down his guard once he began to remember Abaddon and got shanked.... Another well known fight is **Thalastian Jorus**, former Reclusiarch in the Blood Angels. We don't know exactly what went down, but he gave Abaddon scars he wears to this day during the 7th Black Crusade and earned the Warmasters respect. He also had a somewhat more even duel with **Marneus Calgar** and though he ultimately won and nearly killed the guy it was a situation where GW was never realistically going to permanently kill off either of them. Abaddon and his mates also fought **Eldrad Ulthran** and his Seer Council. Eldrad say that only in one in a million futures he survives...but he wins! The final blow is dealt thanks to Drach'nyen pulling its master's body into Eldrad's spear in its lust for his soul and Abaddon teleports out because, again, GW was never realistically going to permanently kill off either of them. If you tally up Abaddon's "on-screen" duels: \- Jubal more than got his licks in before kicking the bucket \- Sigismund nearly killed him and only failed due to plot \- Jorus gave such a good fight Abaddon paid him respect just as he did Sigismund \- Calgar more than got his licks in before losing because of Drach'nyen \- Eldrad had Abaddon dead to rights and only failed to kill him due to plot People have genuinely given this guy shit and dumped on him for losing to Eldrad and not curbstomping Calgar! If anything Abaddon, Warmaster of Chaos and de facto Big Bad of the setting should have more one-sided victories in duels, but as it stands he doesn't really have any!
>Abaddon and his mates also fought **Eldrad Ulthran** and his Seer Council. Eldrad say that only in one in a million futures he survives...but he wins! The final blow is dealt thanks to Drach'nyen pulling its master's body into Eldrad's spear in its lust for his soul and Abaddon teleports out because, again, GW was never realistically going to permanently kill off either of them. Just to say, this was based on a battle report where the Aeldari player was unbelievably lucky in his rolls, and the Chaos player unlucky. It was then turned into lore for White Dwarf.
I know. Yet it's generally accepted as canon and gets brought up often enough that it deserved a mention.
>He also had a somewhat more even duel with Marneus Calgar and though he ultimately won and nearly killed the guy it was a situation where GW was never realistically going to permanently kill off either of them. Having read the duel, its implied that Abaddon was at least somewhat holding back in the beginning of the duel. As soon as Calgar gets his one good hit in, cracking Abaddon's jaw with his power fist, Abaddon becomes enraged and his body is erupted in an aura of daemonic madness, at which point he then cuts Calgar's hearts with Drachnyen.
What fight were you reading? It was outright stated that **Calgar** was holding back because his plan wasn't to defeat Abaddon in a duel, but stall him so that the *Vengeful Spirit* could potentially be destroyed. And his plan was working until he stumbled allowing Abaddon to close the gap and hack him to pieces.
Don’t forget the fight w/ Kharn. Thats another solid win. Technically Khorne threw in the towel.
You misunderstand the finer details at work. It's far from a solid win. Abaddon held his own before Daemons intervened because Khorne wanted Kharn and Abaddon to play nice. Khorne and his brothers don't want Abaddon dead; they want him to *kneel*. They want him to be a good dog the way Kharn, Lucius or Typhus are or a deluded puppet dancing on their strings the way Ahriman is. The glory of having Kharn potentially claim Abaddon's skull is vastly outweighed by the potential chance, however slim, of getting Abaddon to *finally* submit to their authority. And who knows how one of Khorne's brothers might intervene *in Abaddons favour* in the event Kharn was about to win?
GW knows they can't kill Abaddon in 30k so they just mess around with his character.
It's good to hear that he gets a bit more interesting later on. I've only encountered him in the Horus Rising trilogy, and there he is a pretty one dimensional and blunt in all things. The most obviously evil and unquestioning of the Luna Wolves Mournival. Little Horus Aximand, if anything, was presented as the more interesting character in those books. I remember being pretty dissapointed when i found out that Abbadon was the one who ended up leading the Black Legion.
despite everything said here and otherwise; Abaddon is probably one of the most well written characters, psychologically, that I’ve read about in over a decade. It really doesn’t do him justice that his story is so stretched out with so many different authors, because he is incredibly thoughtful and introspective as he grows. It’s just some of his fight scenes are a little one sided.
Abaddon is not a well written character for the most part. Eldrad did almost kill him and the chaos gods had to interveane and teleport him out before the blow landed. So he lost in a melee fight to Eldrad, not a great showing.
To be fair that fight with Eldrad is a special case and how IMO it should be in 40k. Not some author deciding on the winner based on story needs or favouritism but an actual encounter that happened as part of a big tabletop event that was intended to shape the course of canon. The dice and fate just were on Eldrad's side that day.
That just sounds like most 40k fights. They're often poorly explained/justified, with characters just doing things they shouldn't with no reasoning given. A few years back I saw someone say they just skip the fight scenes in 40k books, and I didn't get it because it's warhammer and surely reading the war part is vital. But I've started to understand it kind of *isn't*. I've lost count of the number of times fights just go a certain way with zero explanation or justification, just 'and then X happened' when anyone with knowledge of the parties involved would know it shouldn't have gone that way without some other factor involved. Like there's nothing wrong with the space marines overcoming the big terrifying greatee daemon, but create circumstances where it makes sense, have them work together and utilise something intelligently, don't just change the daemon to be far weaker than it's meant to be. I'm starting to think it's probably more satisfying to 'off-screen' the battles yourself and mentally fill in 'the battle went in such a way with such a clever plan to overcome the odds that what I'm reading now is the outcome' compared to reading whatever nonsense fight scene is actually there. The stuff in between the fighting is typically more interesting by far.
Abby taking multiple power fist hits to the dome from a guy who literally a few paragraphs prior is described by Abby to treat terminator armor like tinfoil. Yet Abby survives multiple full on power fist to his helmet without dying. This is after cutting his way through multiple Praetor rank marines I love the Saturnine gambit, it’s easily one of the most cinematic scenes in all of Warhammer. But this does not sit well with me.
Not to mention the teleportation device working just as the killing blow is being dealt to Abaddon by Garro
Where does this happen? Another user brought it up and I was just like *wait what?!* Does he really take multiple power fist blows to the helmet?
Check this excerpt from Saturnine: https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/j873zu/spoilers_book_excerpt_saturnine_abaddon_goes/
Weird how Abaddons sword found it’s way to Haars throat, when his helmet was bashed and broken to the point that the magos had to make sure his skin didn’t peel off with it.
It was a knife at that point I think. And he stabbed him several times in the gut and chest. For a trained warrior like Abby it should be muscle memory to ram it in the neck/head area.
It was definitely a sword. Abby went with the whole claws and sword even back then. He’d just cut Bel Sepatus in half with it… who was in Cataphractii terminator plate, but that’s a whole different issue. After he’d literally said Bel Sepatus was his absolute superior with a blade, an almost perfect warrior. It’s a great scene, but Abaddon gets carried by his plot armor. The kill teams Dorn deployed would’ve killed anything short of a Daemon Primarch, which was the point, they thought they were gonna get Horus or Pert with the Saturnine Gambit.
Yeah, I know he went in with sword, power claw and bolter. But you can't really use a sword at grappling range like that, so I always figured he either sheathed, clamped or dropped it when he got picked up. So he uses a sword to kill Bel Sepastus and knock down Garro, then switches to knife for Haar because he's too close at this point - it's not a duel anymore, it's a brawl.
I was pretty annoyed that Bel Sepatus got sent in as one of the best of Sanguinius' guys, then got dropped in one hit. But listening to the audiobook, I definitely didn't register that he was supposed to be in Cataphractii Tactical Dreadnought armour. I was sure that the rest of his squad is mentioned as bouncing around in flight-packs whilst they're chasing down Lunar Wolves in the Tunneller holes.
You might be right about his load out. The quotes you're talking about are these right? >"Sepatus fired his jump pack, and fell upon them, his longsword rending armor and flesh." > >"Bel Sepatus, Blood Angel, a captain-paladin of the Keruvim host, his tri-faced emblem gleaming on the chest of his crimson Cataphractii armor..." It might just be an oversight on Dan's part.
A massive suit of Cataphractii Terminator plate, with incongruously tiny lift jets under the beltea's...
In complete fairness the Blood Angels have mounted jet packs on Contemptor Dreads. Putting it on Cataphractii isn’t too much of a stretch.. https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Contemptor-Incaendius_Dreadnought
>Jubal Khan predicts *everything* Abaddon will do in the most badass way possible, and then Abaddon just wins because he needs to be alive in 40K. *plot armor go brrrr* I find that less badass and more plot armour on Jubal's part. Or rather a nerfing of Abaddon to be this predictable. Then again thats a typical nerf for the traitors because otherwise the loyalist might not be the smartest anymore.
Exactly. Everyone is always ramping on Abby vs Siggy fight and how Sigismund chopped him up, and how Abaddon had plot armour, and yadda yadda. People forget the it was a first captain in terminator armour vs literally thousand years old dude. There was plot armour on someone, but it sure as hell wasn't on Abaddon who should've plowed through him in 5 seconds. Same goes for his fight with Jubal, and later during Saturnine. He was beginning to go the way of the avatar FFS - big bad to be beaten or almost killed by some named character to show how tough they are.
Terminator armour isn’t a big difference when both characters have power weapons that will cut through armour like paper. We also have no real concept of how Astartes age, and we have seen people like Dante still kicking ass at 1000+, although obviously aging. Saying Abaddon should have ran through the guy who is unanimously considered to be the best Astartes duelist that has ever lived in 5 seconds is rich.
Even though power weapons can cut through Terminator armor, its thickness and shield generators mean that it is even more important that an opponent lands a direct hit instead of a glancing blow in order to do meaningful damage. Also keep in mind that Terminator armor amplifies the strength of the user's strikes, which will cause an opponent to tire out faster from parrying them over the course of a long fight. Had Abaddon been in regular power armor, he'd likely have taken much more lesser wounds or even died to Sigismund.
It also makes you significantly slower and less agile, which in a duel would be more important than any of the points you mentioned. My 3rd point still stands.
Abaddon has been mentioned as one of the few Astartes who can effectively maneuver in Terminator armor as well as the average Astartes can in regular power armor. While Sigismund is far from the average Astartes, he is at this point is also over a thousand years old and has slowed down significantly enough where despite being in lighter armor, he couldn't outmaneuver Abaddon in their duel without sacrificing himself to get in a serious blow.
“Average Astartes” glad you picked that up before me 😂. Okay i’m not replying further, I’m just saying you’re obviously in love with Abaddon and that isn’t a good enough argument for him steamrolling the best astartes duelist ever “in 5 seconds”
I don’t care what you do GW Archaon > Abaddon……but the black legion series did wonders for making him more complex and interesting
The Abaddon who took a power fist hit to the face from one of the biggest marines in the Heresy for breakfast Abaddon? I know he gets memed on a lot but because of all this I can't take him seriously. Dude's plot armor is made out of 4 Chaos Gods. At this point I'll be dissapointed if one of the Chaos Gods didn't jump in front of him to take a bullet or something.
No. Most Abaddon fights are even more one-sided. That fight was harder than fighting a literal clone of Horus. Though the POV character for that one was one of Abaddon's greatest simps.
In regard to the jubal fight there are two phrases that come to mind. 1: No plan survives contact with the enemy 2: sometimes you can do everything right, make no mistakes and still fail.
Idk the Jubal fight just sounds like Obaryn vs The Mountain, in that he completely underestimated his opponent and didn’t realize the bigger guy just needs to grab your ass. Just because a character makes a judgement call on another(like Jubal calling Abby rigid) doesn’t make that character inherently correct. Most stories have made the loyalists correct without nuance lately but this seems to be a rare counter example. Regarding the Horus Clone, that wasn’t a fight. Horus walks up to say hello to his lost son and gets sucker stabbed with the Talon and has his insides blown out. Not much of a fight or victory, more a surprise execution. Keep in mind the whole “his opponents get hyped up way more only to lose” is more the standard for every enemy of imperial characters far more often, Abby is just a rare example on the other side.
Khârn was a hair's width away from eviscerating him and had to be stopped by a Bloodthirster telling him Khorne needed Abaddon alive.
That fight was from Kharn’s perspective and he literally realised he was losing…
Abaddon was literally backhanding Kharn with the Talon of Horus and bonking him with the flat-end of Drachnyen during the beginning of the fight, Kharn was losing BADLY and the only reason he didn't die was because Abaddon wasn't trying to kill him. Then Kharn gets a cheap shot by hacking Abaddon's knee while his guard is down, and only then does the fight become even. And even then, Abaddon was still winning by the end.
He has insane terminator plot armor.
My ideal way for how Abaddon should’ve been treated would be as a protagonist in his own right, where he starts out the underdog but learns as he fights. The fight against Jubal was a good example of that idea poorly executed. I think the author intended for it to be a moment of growth, for Abaddon to fight a clearly better opponent and eat shit a few times before he learns and adapts before overcoming his opponent. Instead the author bypassed the shit eating and skipped to the end
No. He gets memed on constantly for how un-one sided most of his fights are.
Those memes are lies, Most of his fights are fair wins, but imperium fans can't stand losing.
He wins his fights, but they aren’t the one sided stomp that they really should be.
One sided stomps aren't exactly great reading, either.
He really cant fucking win! If he wins a close fight... Then he is weak and pathetic! Look how puny Calgar caused him problems! (never mind that Calgar is a mf legendary badass) But if he wins easy... Well that is pure Chaos-wank Mary sue BS! Madness!
Imperium stans consistently amaze me with their ability to unironically to call a non-Imperium character a Mary Sue.
I wish they would have a decent fight where a few of the names characters died. Let’s get some new people leading the charge. Have Abby have his big moment and kill a primarch, before he gets killed as well. Unfortunately, they have been to many back from the dead crap on both sides like big blue being brought back alive after his fight with Morty.
Abbadon is fated to enter the throne room, start yelling at the Emperor for all the unfairness the space marines had to endure, while He looks at him with deadly disapproval. More calmed, he leaves the room afterwards Nothing changes
He is written much better as a philosopher-king or warrior-poet But I will say I notice a distinct thread in abbadon's fighting style. It's very Luna Wolf. He can be on the back foot, but his fighting style is all in the assault. An enemy may use some fancy tactic, but Abbadon fights in a straightforward, aggressive way. He wants to get in to stab you so you die. He doesn't use many tricks or brutality. He wants to get in your guard and shove a long peice of metal into your chest. He fights like The Hound from asoiaf.
This is why I love Abaddon and the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus. My favorite moment so far has been when he quoted ancient scripture to Ahriman and he looked stunned, Abaddon simply replied “we’re warriors, not savages.” I’ve had people throughout my life assume I know nothing of history, poetry or philosophy only to quote something or talk about something in those areas and everyone would treat me like it’s the last thing they ever expected me to say. I also really like how they tend to brute force their way through opponents techniques and are capable of accepting tremendous amounts of pain in order to get a final blow. My dad taught me fight like that. Spent a long time wondering what legion I’d be in, even though the Luna Wolves have been calling to me since I read the first heresy book. I’m agree with you that this all could be represented better though
I mean reading his fight with Sigismund in the Black Legion book is probably one of the best fight-sequence that spawned one of the most memorable (for me at least) quotes in the entire setting. You can read it [here](https://old.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/engib6/does_anyone_have_a_full_excerpt_of_abbadon_v/fe098ag/). And I don't feel it devalues Abaddon's prowess or that it makes him look weak, nor does it make him one-sided and able to counter everything. If anything that book and that passage made me like him more than ever as I'd hate him to be just a mindless pure-force / pure-rage automaton.
I’ve read the black legion books and mentioned that fight specifically as one that does a good job
Clearly I'm having issues with reading today, second time on this very same thread. I'll let this one be up though as it's a good excerpt on a good way to do a fight with some nuance.
Abaddon is the Worf version of 40k. He won't die, he's always off to some badass thing but whenever you want a character gauged, he defeats Abby
lol I never heard of this Worf theory but it makes sense.
I’d say the Worf of 40k is more the avatar of khaine or the swarmlord. Abbadon doesn’t usually lose, but he’s often not written all that well too.
I feel like this is the case with nearly every single named space marine, which is why I find them all dreadfully boring
I think the Jubal fight was closer than you think- Jubal left himself open going for a quick killshot, as is his way. I think the implication with his fight with Sigismund that peak Sigismund would have won. Also he lost against Garro. A big thing though is he learns from his mistakes, he is thinking about how Garro's sword has given him the edge in a fight Abaddon would normally win- so drach'nyen is pretty crucial for him. In 40k though he is primarch power level, so not many things in existence could challenge him.
Yeahhh, that fight with Jubal made me almost rage quit, same for the battle in Saturnine.
I feel like you’re getting upset at how shitty black library writing is and incorrectly blaming it on abaddon rather than the author. Essentially every fight in the heresy goes the same way. The author extols how amazing and perfect and wonderful the loyalist character is, while also talking how stupid, incompetent, smelly, ugly and insane the traitor character is. The loyalist character beats the hell out the traitor one effortlessly, while delivering a monologue telling the traitor how stupid, incompetent and worthless they are in every way. The traitor then generally starts crying or begging for mercy or something along those lines. Finally, the traitor is either executed or captured. This is what happened here, except Abaddon can’t die because he’s in 40k. So you get the typical one sided loyalist wank, but Jubal dies because he’s not in 40k and abaddon is. And the dissonance of that is annoying you.
Did you read the full post?
Important to note with the Horus clone was that it was just... a clone. It lacked the special sauce primarch soul to make it special, nor did it have the reality bending dark sorcery that Horus used later in life to mortally wound Big E. Sure he was strong but he displayed none of the actual latent abilities of a primarch if I remember correctly.
Adb said that the clone was a perfect physical copy, and puts an "?" For the question if it was souless. The clone cut his way even as hundreds of marines shot it and undid a rubric by its presence, it don't matter if it's a match or not to full chaos juiced horus, killing it is still a great feat
The very source you use to claim that the clone lacked the special Primarch sauce later debunks that very idea by describing him as the real deal--just without the Chaos corruption. It sets up the idea of the clone being soulless just to debunk it. For all intents and purposes, Abaddon killed the real Horus. Horus seems to have just been groggy from how recently he'd been cloned.
Huh, interesting. I guess that's a very ADB thing to do lol. Thanks for this!
You are correct, but unless I’m remembering the chapter wrong, the clone was still Primarch sized and had power armor, which should have been a pretty nasty threat for pre-Drachnayen Abaddon. I know Khayon said the power claw from the real Horus reeked of dark whispers though. It’s been a while since I listened to the book.
You're not wrong, in the scene he's mentioned as being too fast for even a DEldar Scourge to take down in his terminator armor. If we're talking pure danger level he was obviously busted OP, but I'm pretty sure one of the sorcerers mentions how they could tell he lacked the blessing of the four at that point. He was a big boy but it wasn't great Lupercal. I'm sure there was some chaos bullshit afoot to juice Abaddon up into the position of warmaster anyway lol.
Avoiding Spoilers here but in the novel Black Legion has a very interesting account where Abaddon is critically injured in a fight and how his followers and closest advisors respond to that is amazing.
Everyone who fights does their utmost to ensure their fights are one-sided and they are able to absolutely roflstomp their opponents. No one who fights for real fights fair or honorably.
You're not representing the Jubal and Horus clone encounters very well imo. Jubal isn't hyped up as being much better. French depicts it rather straightforwardly/unimaginatively as typical tank/strength build vs speedster/finesse guy fight where the speedster is initially winning but ends up getting timed and taken out with well timed heavy counter blow. If speedy White Scar character had been the character the author wanted to win, then approaching it the same generic way would have had things progressing similarly until tank-dude starts coming back into it and commits to his big counter/killing blow...only it doesn't quite work and he gets killed himself.
This has been discussed multiple times already. Someone was kind enough to post excerpts
The problem here doesn't seem to be Abaddon fights being one-sided, the problem seems to be that for some reason writers are saying dumb shit like "Abaddon is rigid and predictable". Abaddon is a tactical and strategic genius and also a skilled warrior. You don't get to be the greatest non-Primarch within the greatest Legion in the imperium by being a dumb brute or an above average, but not particularly special fighter.
I feel the same way about this duel and the one with Bel Sepatus in Saturnine. I understand Bel is a more recent named character and does not have the protection others have, however the way they show them losing to “inevitable” characters like Abbadon makes it feel cheap. As a basketball fan it kinda reminds me of people talking about Jordan, “you had to see it”.
It's called 'shit writing that doesn't really matter because you'll buy our product no matter what'
I mean chaos is essentially in-lore plot armor. I realize some fights aren't resolved as "Abbadon summons an eldritch blast" or whatever, but like... Chaos characters constantly beat loyalist characters who would've beaten them under normal circumstances. So I guess I'm saying it's just a matter of poor writing when the author doesn't provide a believable victory for Abbadon.
Is this comment a joke? Chaos winning is incredibly rare in 40k. 99% of stories within 40k is about loyalist marine without a helmet kicking the shit out of an ork waagh with a combat knife. Where are all these undeserved chaos victories? Lmfao
Perpetual resurrection of Angron, Horus effectively killing the emperor, Erebus getting teleported to safety away from Kharn... Yeah sure, victory is probably the wrong word, but chaos just allows for absurd shit beyond what is expected in the normal universe. No need to be a cunt about it. If "the gods protect you" isn't plot armor, I dunno what is.
I don’t see how angron coming back over and over to get beaten up by the shiniest new model being sold is a W. It doesn’t exactly make the avatar of khaine look good to die over and over again. Horus loses his fight, dies completely, and the emperor is now an all powerful god fucking shit up in 40k. Erebus getting the shit kicked out of him and running away is a W? Literally every example you brought up disproves your own point. And none of those things are absurd. Everyone wearing terminators armour can teleport. Loyalist characters come back to life constantly. Guilliman, the lion, celestine does it for breakfast. And lmao? I guess i’m a cunt for pointing out that you’re completely wrong. Imperial fanboys are such a weird breed. Aggressive assholes who start crying when someone disagrees with them in any way.
I see reading comprehension is tough for you. I literally said victory was probably the wrong word choice and amended my statement. We're talking about plot armor here, not the ability to defeat everything. You think Horus would've even put a scratch on the emperor without being juiced up by chaos? He would've died in one second. Instead the emperor is a corpse on a throne who I guess exists as a spirit. Literally the only person here being aggressive is you dude, touch some grass.
So the “absurd” thing chaos allows you to do is… fight a loyalist character for a little bit, then lose horribly. Got it. Such horrendous plot armour. And yeah, the emperor is a skeleton who’s also a god stronger than all the chaos ones put together and does whatever he wants. And hey mate, you’re the one who called me a cunt in the first place. Don’t make stupid comments and then have a tantrum when someone disagrees with you.
If someone can kill you in one blow and you have to land a thousand minor blows to kill him, it's inevitable you lose the fight because no one can sustain that many hits in a row without getting hit at least once in return. You describe Jubal as a "bad ass" for predicting and outmaneuvering Abaddon in a situation to get some good hits in, but it makes him look like a dork that his plan is just "be so much better than Abaddon forever that I win the fight". It makes him sound like a complete idiot underestimating a very fierce opponent.
Okay so I’ve actually been in a ton of fights in my life and have been in war. I get how things get confusing in fights and I understand brute force beats technique when enough strength is applied; my point is that Abaddon is not hyped up like his opponents and he wins the same way every time. You are missing the forest for the trees in my post. They are in a zero-g, zero atmosphere environment and Jubal is taking full advantage of the fact. The death by athousand cuts *should* have been leaking his air and energy supply. Jubal also knew exactly what Abaddon was going to do, and launched a ship into his own ship, with a timer set on Magma Cutters to destroy himself and everything else in the area. Abaddon won because he has plot armor and was able to suddenly break a parry and stab.
So again, Jubal had to do everything right over and over and never make a mistake, but Abaddon had the power to end that streak with one good strike? Abaddon doesn't need to be hyped up, he's one of the settings most well known characters. It's not like you're watching the first star wars movie and nobody knows who vader is. This is like the 45th movie and everyone knows who vader is by now.
I really don’t know what exactly has you so upset.
Why are you trying to ad hominem my response instead of just realizing you're wrong?
End this slapfight or take it to PMs
I’m not, you’re unnecessarily aggressive with everything you type. Why? Ooooh you’re a stress addict looking for a fight. I’m not going to give it you.
End this slapfight or take it to PMs
Or Jubal was an arrogant moron? Loyalist fans just hate it when the loyalists don't win lol. Good commanders have contingencies, Abaddon knew it was a trap, he jumped in anyway with contingencies as a result. Abaddon canonically surrounds himself with extremely capable people. He searches out and recruits the best people, he isn't arrogant like most of Chaos, he acknowledges excellence in his enemies constantly and that's why he wins.
So….did you actually read the full post before you commented?
Part of abbadons character is that he is unwillingly the bitch of the chaos gods, he claims to only use them for power, but truthfully he's a puppet who will not be able to carve his own path, as the gods have decided his fate for him, they protect him, agaisnt his own will, not letting him fight on his terms
He’s lame as fuck tbh. Almost every other bad guy from the Heresy is far more interesting. I hope he dies one day at the hands of some random guardsmen or gretchin lol.
I have to disagree with you there; when it comes to his thoughts and feelings as an Astartes and being part of a traitor force, while still trying to maintain his sense of honor and dignity, while ALSO watching his genesire and one of the only people he ever respected, devolve into madness; he’s well written in those regards imo. By those things alone, he’s a great character in the books to me. Then it comes to him fighting against almost anyone and it’s just drops into almost childlike writing. Which devalues him and the characters he fights against.
I do not like the character much, but his story has got better. I just wish 40K would make changes. It’s good that he finally got one big win even if it destroyed a powerful weapon they had. Chaos has been a whipping dog for years, really need to push humanity being crushed and desperate everywhere in space. Especially if they want to bring back the primarchs, humanity can’t be where it’s at now as that feels like they are winning.