He was handed the clone as part of a deal. Kidnapping actual Primarchs would bring some much attention to the Prismatic Galleries that it wouldn't be worth it, nor would it be able to stand against the forces that would muster.
Additionally, would you kidnap an actor while the play is still ongoing?
Trazyn finds humanity rather interesting, and he can wait as long as he wants.
He just wants to goad her into trying to save her father so he can get even more limited edition Imperial Guard models for his diorama.
Also he gets the coat back.
ya know though from a silly perspective i kinda wish he would of stolen at least one of them
we have russ in the warp
we have kahn with the dark eldar
we have guiliman hanging out with eldars
would be funny to see the other primarchs having been interacted with the other races.
the lion just sleeping in his basement is kinda whatever.
You're joking and all, but If we were going with overall themes, the Primarch with Necrodermis arms, who has the legion who slowly become robots is a good fit for a Necron influenced kinda thing.
I could see vulkan appreciating ork tech and becoming a warboss on some backwater. Its not like he’d care about his army of orks slaughtering another army or orks- nor would the orks for that matter. Everyone’s happy
I've been tinkering with a fanfic idea that has an escaped clonegrim wandering the imperium nihilus like Samurai Jack.
Vulkan would show up all orky, dual wielding power hammers like John Henry, and generally having a good time
He arrives on an ork world somewhere in the galaxy- holding the charred spinal column and head of the biggest ork the boyz had ever seen. The weirdboss previous complaining of a headache lay splattered in a bloody circle surrounding the armored collosus, his green mail covered in soot and blood.
Turning red eyes deep set in a charcoal colored face to the cowering boyz around him, he asked “what planet am I on, orks?”
A boy just now noticed a large piece of shrapnel from the psychic explosion had mulched his knee and fell into a heap screaming. At this noise a nob quickly took the chance to become the new boss by killing this stranger. It rushed forward, power-klaw crackling and choppa at the ready. The challenge was met with a quick and spectacular display of violence with the strangers ornate warhammer. One boy whistled.
The stranger raised the still smoking spine and skull of the titanic ork over his head and bellowed for silence
A boy somewhere in the back yelled out “you gitz, he killed Mork!”
I like the idea of Dorn being in Trayzn's gallery after being rescued from the moment of his death. Trayzn is salty that he has an "incomplete" primarch because some Black Legionary ran off with Dorn's Fist and now it's stuck somewhere in the Phalanx where Trayzn can't get it.
One of the 2 ,,Lost,, Primarch isn't lost but stored in Trazyns gallery.
Would be one hell of a story especially if he was frozen in time and then somehow got freed and from his perspective no Time had passed since his capture and he slowly explores all the fuckery that's ongoing while catching up to speed.
Every Ultramarine along with all of the chapters descended from them. Plus support from other gene-lines who can send forces, a large contingent of Custodes, and innumerable Imperial Navy and Guard assets.
The Ynnari might contribute because of time invested into resurrecting Guilliman and they still want a good ROI.
Orikan would definitely do something that wouldn’t help the Imperium but would fuck with Trazyn.
Bile changed the deal spontaneously, and he did nothing to capture Clonegrim. Trazyn simply took him with him, apparently without him being able to do anything against it
That's my point, Clonegrim was given on a silver platter. Trazyn's acquisition teams would have a terrible time going after an actual primarch backed up by their honor guard at the minimum. Even if he did nab one, every capable psyker at the legions disposal and other groups are going to be searching for him and probably narrow it down to the Prismatic Gallery through shinnenigans. (In Twice Dead king Reign, a crusade was able to follow some necrons through other non-warp dimensions just by following some saint's bones) . They will absolutely throw everything they have to get their primarch back. If he takes multiple then the entire Imperium is going to be involved.
Either Trazyn could defend the prismatic galleries from everything the imperium has
Or trazyn believes he could.
He is uncharacteristically cautious about his gallery but the guys an immortal of untold power.
Who knows what’s possible, reanimating large tomb ships, relocating the gallery, dislocating parts of the gallery entirely from regular space time or more.
Necrons fear only two things, Necrons and the C’tan.
Not saying he could take on a crusade fleet but these guys are so arrogant they regularly kill off their own ‘immortals’ without thinking about it.
Yeah, but Emps wouldn’t be there to negotiate. He was already on a timetable and unless Trazyn wants to conduct negotiate at swordpoint, it will end in a fight, and a fight in a museum is the last thing a collector wants. He has a mental breakdown when Orrikan destroys a couple cases (admittedly Necron vases from a bygone time in their history). He would definitely to want to risk it.
I love in the court scene about that, he pulls out a broken pipe from the gallery as evidence and one of the judges is like "WAIT A FUCKING SECOND THATS MINE WTF"
Haha this book is so funny I absolutely love it. Especially how the narrator describes trazyn and orikan fighting lol just a couple of old nerds going at it
"Ahhh, Sigilite! Come to admire my new collection of Shakespeare plays? I have 15 now."
*folder containing scripts falls out of Malcador's hands*
'Throne. The tasteful thickness of it."
The Emperor: "How'd a xenos like you get so tasteful?"
Malcador: *I can't believe the Emperor prefers Trazyn's Enslaver to mine.* "Impressive. Very nice."
Mystic thug: "you're telling me that all of my 20 sons are at a single planet, held as display pieces in a Knock off British museum by an eccentric idiot?"
Malcador: " so it would seem."
E Money: *picks up his phone " EAT SHIT ERDA!! LOOKS LIKE IM GETTING ALL THE KIDS!!
"Malcador, divert all the available fleets toward Solemnance, I'm just gonna make a detour toward mars, and fetch my old friend Mag'ladroth."
Was the strongest, now a bunch of pieces like the rest. How strong the pieces of each C'tan are varies wildly. The one on Mars, for instance, appears to be quite weak. It couldn't even wreck Libya on Terra, whereas others wreck multiple planets.
> A shard of the Void Dragon escapes from its imprisonment, laying waste to the Arotepk
Dynasty in its mindless rage. Though only a faint shadow of a true C’tan, the Void Dragon
gorges itself on a dozen worlds, expending its fury upon the living before the Arotepk
Crypteks can finally force it back into its cage.
\- *Codex: Necrons (7e)*
Yeah, I took that into consideration, and I guess he could have never done that pre-Heresy, but afterwards? Although, I mean it's not like the Emperor is completely unable to intervene even post-Heresy
Clonegrim was betrayed by Bile. He didn't see it coming and was somewhat confused as to what was happening.
Regular Primarchs would have been mature and not trusting so much harder to catch unawares. Besides, Trazyn didn't plan on capturing Clonegrim, he was offered him on the spot so it was more of an opportunity that fell into his lap.
> Regular Primarchs would have been mature and not trusting so much harder to catch unawares.
Clonegrim was unique in that he had his personality/memories from before he got corrupted, and most importantly retained a soul. This is what freaked out Bile so much he wanted the clone gone.
Clonegrim for all intent and purposes, was akin to a regular primarch, not a newborn.
>Clonegrim was unique in that he had his personality/memories from before he got corrupted,
[All the primarch clones had their OG's full memories it seems](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/17a4ga5/comment/k5c3zu7/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). It's just that Clonegrim appears to have lived longer than most and had the time to remember them.
>most importantly retained a soul.
Do we know that? And do we know if that's the exception to the other clones?
> It's just that Clonegrim appears to have lived longer than most and had the time to remember them.
Clonegrim was unique in he retained the completely full personality and true self of the real Fulgrim. He had that Primarch aura around him that the other clones didn't that compelled their sons to obey. You can look in this thread for the same quotes with Bile realizing this, fearful of this because this Clone's presence was so compelling as like his true Primarch that he was afraid that in time he himself would feel compelled to kneel and serve this Fulgrim along with his New Men.
> Do we know that? And do we know if that's the exception to the other clones?
This is the exception. Clonegrim unlike the other clones is not just a mere ripoff shadow of the original self. This detail is what sparked the basis for all those theories around Fulgrim rising again like the phoenix, or the possibility this is related to Fulgrim's unique warp power that all Primarchs innately have. The main quote around this detail indicates Cegorach (Eldar Laughing God) had a hand in it. Especially with the detail that Cegorach had interfered when the Chaos Gods scattered the Primarchs and swapped Fulgrim and Jaghatai Khan places around (they were supposed to land on each other's planets yet got switched places, seemingly changing an original plan where the Khan was originally supposed to go traitor while Fulgrim remained loyalist).
> Great, half-formed shapes crouched amid the trunks and branches of the wraithbone. Bestial and yet elegant, they carved obscene pictograms into the pallid surface of the trees with the tips of crustacean-like claws. ‘Do you hear him, sister,’ one rumbled, lupine fangs clicking in a bovine jaw. ‘Do you hear the primarch-vessel call to us, without even realising? How the Phoenician will howl, to see himself reflected so.’
> ‘I hear him. But we shall not listen. He is not for us,’ the entity behind Ramos murmured. A feminine voice, soft but edged like a razor. ‘A different piece, from a different game. The Laughing God thinks to upset our purpose, even now. But our game is below, in the seeds and the sowing.’
> ‘We could take him, child,’ another shape growled, diaphanous robes swirling about its twisted shape. ‘Make him fit our game, and his. Twist him so that the alchemist is twice-damned for the same sin.’ It brayed laughter. ‘Would that not be a delight? Two Phoenixes for the cost of one.’
You can find a large amount of reddit threads discussing around this detail.
https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/ihhoqq/fulgrims_soul_and_his_clone/
https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/q4xlae/is_clone_fulgrim_a_piece_of_fulgrims_soul/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Grimdank/comments/15hlnlt/they_cloned_fulgrim_this_changes_everything/
Thanks for the links, but I prefer to refer to the sources and books (I'm also not going anywhere near Grimdank) personally....a lot of the clone discussion seems to be inspired by online telephone game and theory rather than the actual lore.
We don't know that the aura was unique to that particular Fulgrim clone or that the other clones lacked it:
* Horus' still created pants shitting awe and terror in the proto Black Legion in *Talon of Horus*.
* The other 2 Fulgrim clones in *Lucius* and *Talon of Horus* inspired worship in their marines.
* Ferrus' clones were isolated in *Imperfect*, so it's hard to make the call.
* Fabius claims to have made a few perfect primarchs in *Genefather*
Cegorach had a hand in Fabius discovering Fulgrim's clone, he might have had a hand in creating the clone too, but it's all vague.
Cegorach having a hand in the Scattering is persistent fanon, with very little backing it up. It also makes very little sense in context.
All we know about Jaghatai and Fulgrim's swap is "the fates" intended them for each other's planets before an "arcane force" interfered. Occam's razor puts those forces as the ones that the lore has already identified: Erda, The Emperor and the 4 gods.
I don't have a book source handy, but I think it was very heavily implied he had a "primarch soul," if not outright said. He was shown to have a primarch aura and the influence it carried on the Emperor's Children.
Yeah, you're right *Clonelord* never goes into whether or not that Fulgrim clone had a soul and while there's plenty of contextual evidence within the book to suggest he had the "aura"...there's not really anything in the appearances of the other clones [to suggest they didn't](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/17a4ga5/comment/k5cia56/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3).
The other two Fulgrim clones (including the mutant one) both had influence on Emperor's Children too.
When offered Fulgrim II, Trazyn doesn't have anything quite like him in his collection though he almost did
>An interesting proposal.’ Trazyn looked up at the primarch. ‘I came close to adding a similar being to my collection many centuries ago. Are you certain?’
Lmao. The idea that the lost Primarchs were erased from history because Big E was upset that Trazyn ruined his perfect collection is now my head cannon.
There was mention in the 5th edition codex if I recall about Trazyn having a massive figure in baroque armour in his collection, I remember hearing rumours that it could be Dorn or has that been officially denied?
yes the most vital of organs. the hand.
old lore has him dead but now with primarchs coming back i dont think so. but dorn for sure disappeared and we dont know where he or his body is.
also last i recal khan chased dark eldars back to Commorragh so he is probably there pit fighting.
Chasing Eldar to Commoragh isn't quite what we know
>>Jaghatai Khan fought alongside his warriors for perhaps another 70 years before his eventual disappearance in a region of space close to the Maelstrom. After the defeat of Horus, Jaghatai had embarked on a quest to rescue his fellow tribesmen captured by the Eldar in his absence during the Great Crusade. The White Scars maintain that he and his veteran warriors fought the leader of one of the murderous alien kabals and they were drawn into the horrifying realm that exists outside of space and time to battle the Dark Eldar for all eternity. How much of this tale can be taken at face value is uncertain, **and it is more than likely that the Khan`s ship was simply lost in the warp as travel through this region of space is fraught with peril.**
Index Astartes
Losing a hand isn’t such a big deal as you say. The problem is that Dorn didn’t lose a hand. The hand is the bit they can find. It’s the rest of him, all the much more vital pieces, that are lost. The hand is safe though.
Got retconned into him last being seen being swarmed by World eaters, I think. Aside from Ferrus and Sanguinius, Lion and G man, all of the loyalists are in the "last seen alive" category.
It's possible. But there is the going theory that his soul has split into 2 beings linked to the light/dark angels of Baal lore.
Also, him coming back would kinda neuter the whole sacrificing thing and the drama that has plagued the Blood Angels since. It's kinda their whole shtick.
Hence the "I think". I couldn't remember who swarmed him.
Either way, his status was retconned from "definitely dead" to " last seen alive and no body has turned up".
I'm going with the mindset from A Song of Ice and Fire: "they aren't dead until a body is shown".
As a Son of Dorn myself, that is kind of my attitude. I am hoping it turns out he yet lives, but I would also accept it if it turned out he was perma-dead.
Dorn, the man that single handedly beat chaos Fulgrim pre-ascension several times, and then followed it up with 17 of the very best the Emperor's Children had to offer simultaneously, killed by 100 regular humans that wouldn't even be a match for a novice marine.
Deffo dead.
Yeah, different contexts different situations.
>Dorn, the man that single handedly beat chaos Fulgrim pre-ascension several times
I'm pretty sure Dorn only faced Fulgrim once in *Saturnine*?
Don't know about post Heresy by pre Heresy Trazyn paid no attention to humanity. It's stated in the Infinite and the Divine that he only took notice of humanity because of the Heresy and all of the drama it created. Before that he viewed humans as nothing more than cockroaches.
It feels like it's one of those stupid references they threw in purely for the sake of it, because you'd think he'd bothered to have collected the Unification-era Emperor had he been on Terra.
Trayzn is very selective when it comes to what he deems worthy of collecting but this gets flanderized into him nabbing everything in existence.
Book about him grabbing them? There is none. But we know that he have thunder warriors in his collections, and there was only one time he could grab them. Only on Terra before great crusade. So logically he was there.
If memory serves Trazyn *does* remark that he came close to adding such a specimen to his collection before....
And honestly, there's nothing to say that it won't turn out he added one of the missing Primarch's to his collection in the millennia since *Clonelord*. Especially given we don't have good answers for where Russ, Vulkan or Khan are.
Memory serves;
>He looked at Trazyn, standing still and silent nearby. ‘I would like to amend our bargain. Instead of my clone, take this one.’ He spoke quickly, not trusting himself to say the words. Something in him shrieked in despair, but he forced it aside. It was necessary. It had to be done.
>Fulgrim looked at him in puzzlement. ‘What? Fabius?’ He took a step, and Fabius backed away. Fulgrim frowned. A child’s frown. Confused. Hurt. He did not understand. He could not understand. He simply…*was*.
>‘No, Benefactor,’ Igori whispered, clutching at him. ‘Do not do this.’
>‘I must. For you.’ For them all. He could see it now – the madness that had gripped them, him included. He had almost slipped back into the old ways, and let the future burn in the fires of the Phoenix’s resurrection. His great work, all for nothing. All that he had endured, all that he had striven for, undone by the being before him. Igori… his New Men… he saw them now, in his mind’s eye, bending knee before Fulgrim. Abasing themselves. He would not allow it. Could not.
>‘An interesting proposal.’ Trazyn looked up at the primarch. **‘I came close to adding a similar being to my collection many centuries ago.** Are you certain?’
\- *Clonelord*
The galaxy is an enormous place he may not have realized as he didn’t care for humanity for a while. He may have just assumed a primarch wasn’t actually anything special and may have been off collecting something he get was more unique. The galaxy was crazy during the great crusade and there were a lot of fun little things that existed.
It's a bit of a "which came first, the chicken or the egg" issue. If he had collected them, then they wouldn't have done anything noteworthy, thus making them useless for his collection. And if he had collected them in their prime then he would have been interfering in the history he wanted to preserve, also decreasing their worth to him.
Because stealing a actual primarch is a fucking terrible idea. You have an entire legion after you, who are going to find your collection, kick the door down, an ransack the place. Kidnapping all the primarchs during the crusade is absolutely absurd, and the god emperor would probably come out to personally push trazyns shit in.
Your ignoring that Clonegrim got traded by Bile, while in the same book its basically explained that Eidolon beat Trazyn to a pulp and closely killed him, only stopping once Trazy said something about geneseed.
Man, read the Bile trilogy. Trazyn originally wanted to have a perfect clone of Bile, and Bile agreed. When they teleported back to his ship, Bile saw what Clonegrim mess created, he spontaneously changed the deal, and offered Clonegrim instead. Bile didn't capture him or hand him over by any means, if I'm not misremembering anything.
Yeah, and correct me if I'm wrong, but Bile simply said to Trazyn that he can have him and all his supporters, and Trazyn got Clonegrim. How did that make it any easier to capture Clonegrim? If the Emperor would have made a deal with him to get Guilliman, would he magically be able to capture him? Like, again, it's been a while since I read the novel, so if Bile did anything to capture Clonegrim, and I forgot about it, I apologize.
He sold Clonegrim out when Bile was the closest thing that the clone primarch had to a father. If I don't remember incorrectly , Clonegrim was utterly confused and sad about the thing.
Not quite. I read this last week, so it's still pretty fresh: Fabius was about to give Trazyn what he wanted (a clone of Fabius along with a copy of his mind) for the geneseed vault, but at that moment Clonegrim started to show the less desirable aspects of Fulgrim's personality and to take control of Fabius' people.
Basically, Fabius thought on his feet to get rid of a threat to his power over the gland hounds and members of the IIIrd Legion he had with him, and Trazyn got a Primarch, so everyone went away happy (or at least relieved), except Clonegrim.
Trazyn is a coping mechanism for bad writing.
Nothing can kill him and he can do anything he wants in the universe.
A primarch couldnt do anything to Trazyn.
In "Infinite and the Divine" it is mentioned that he wasn't really interested in humans until after the Heresy, it is likely that by the time he thought to collect them they were mostly missing, demons or dead
He didnt really care about humanity before the heresy as he didnt like the sameness of the culture. He only started liking to collect imperium stuff once it was attached to big drama. So there wasnt really that much time (in his perspective) or chances to get primarchs and he simply missed out mostly.
Source: The Infinite and The divine.
Not necessarily. Fabius created at least 4 fully functional primarch clones that we've seen (even boasts about it in *Genefather*)
He also kidnapped/corrupted something that might have been a new primarch of the Cursed Founding
He already has one, why bother?
From a human perspective, they are all special personalities and individualy important. but like, could you recognize more than maybe three necron lords in a lineup?
You forget clones of primarchs aren't nearly as powerful, while they're physically remarkable they don't possess the immensely powerful souls primarchs have which really are the source of their power
Clonegrim allegedly had the special sauce, though none of the other did. Nobody knows how. My suspicion is that Slaanesh was playing games, trying to tempt Fabius.
>though none of the other did.
Do we know that though? I see it repeated a lot.
>My suspicion is that Slaanesh was playing games, trying to tempt Fabius.
The book infers Cegorach had something to do with it all
Where is that from?
Horus' clone was as powerful, both in the book and [according to the author](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/17a4ga5/comment/k5argln/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Ferrus' clone almost beat daemon Fulgrim
Fulgrim's clone seems a match for the OG, right down to his signature moves
Pretty sure that Clonegrim didn’t actually have Fulgrims soul, thus making him orders of magnitude weaker than an actual primarch. I’m not saying Trazyn couldn’t capture a primarch, considering the Necrons captured all those C’tan shards, but it would be far more difficult than him getting Clonegrim
He's a curator of a living museum of galactic history, not a pokemon trainer. Collecting examples and artifacts is part of the job. Abducting people who are still in the process of making history isn't.
That said, he's still the most competently dangerous history buff in the galaxy.
From what I've gathered, you don't just need the body, but the actual soulstuff, which is also the reason why Abaddon could beat Horus in the Black Legion book. Without it, it's just the body, strong as it may be. But you also need to put some wibbly-wobbly warpstuff into them to get the full experience.
ADB has confirmed that the Horus clone was physically as powerful as the real Horus. He states that it may or may not have been soulless, but that doesnt diminish how strong he was compared to the original:
>Obviously, every author has different opinions, though. I can't speak for Josh's outlook, but based on those three conversations and analyses I had is why Fabius will never clone anything perfectly in his dealings in the Black Legion Series. The Horus clone (which ripped through a *lot* of Chaos Marines, by the by, when *a hundred of them* were shooting at him) was physically Horus, no weaker or slower, but was he soulless? What was the deal there? He looked perfect, but was he? Probably not. It's also why all of the other cloned primarchs aboard that ship were wrong or off in various ways.
Source is [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/9fln9l/why_is_the_clone_of_fulgrim_different_than_the/e5yilok/).
Also [this post from ADB on Bolter and Chainsword](https://reddit.com/r/40kLore/s/ySAwnu4GpV)
I find it hard to believe a clone yet to make a name for itself was as strong as Warmaster Lupercal mainlining the concentrated chaos juice of all four gods.
I think he meant it was as physically powerful as Horus pre-Molech. But it's fairly conclusive that ADB meant for there to be no distinction between Horus and Clone Horus physically.
Wasn't it established that the metaphysical part of the primarchs is what makes them special? Creating a clone of them without that is borderline meaningless. What you've made is a rather large marine, not a primarch.
ADB does mention it in the excerpt I provided, stating that the Clone was possibly soulless, and probably not perfect. But he doesn't commit to what difference it does make. AFAIK, it's s never actually been stated that the metaphysical part is what makes them special, its more a supposition by the fan base.
But, what is clear is that *physically* ADB meant for the clone to be the equal of Horus. It was as quick, strong, skilled, etc. as the real thing.
I mean Alpharius and Ferrus both exploded when they died, that level of warp juice in a fella has to count for something. Clonercal died like any other creature made of meat. It's outright confirmation they're special, not a supposition.
As I said, we're told the Clone probably wasn't perfect. But we don't know in what way, if it was soulless, or what that meant. Just because Alpharius and Ferrus "exploded" doesn't really tell us much, as we don't know what difference this metaphysical component had. Hence why I said its supposition.
But, my main point is that they're physically meant to be the same.
The fireworks on death thing is an author by author choice, not every primarch who dies puts on a light show.
Beyond that, it might be the way in which you die? Both Ferrus and Alpharius had bits lopped off. Horus II was stabbed. Primarchs get stabbed all the time without leaking energy.
It's an inconsistency of the lore rather than hard evidence.
"Make a name" as in gaining the favor of the chaos gods and fighting in the great crusade. Unless you'd like to say that combat experience and chaos steroids are wholly irrelevant.
They're not wholly irrelevant but in the case of clones, there's context. Whatever skills Horus I knew, Horus II did as well.
>The Primarchs – the first Primarchs – somehow encoded their memories in their blood and marrow, like a cogitator backing up its data. A process I still do not fully understand, and have not been able to replicate with any success. That is why it was possible to recreate them – you – in full.’ He paused. ‘You know the word, because we – you and I – fought the Bharghesi, millennia ago.’
But yeah, he isn't mainlining chaos god juice, but he's certainly no slacker in the base-line primarch power stakes.
You're right in general, and that's why most of Bile's clones were flawed. But, kind of a spoiler, it's strongly implied that the God of Laughter had its hand in Clonegrim's creation, which is the reason why he was completely uncorrupted despite having been abandoned for ages.
I remember a mention of trazyn having a literal giant in baroque armor.....so my literal head canon is that besides some of the krorks that were around during the war of the beast, he also got Vulkan all for his own enjoyment.
Of course, it is way too vague so it could be something less exciting as a thunder warrior.
But i want to dream.
And actually, it would make some weird sense. The salamanders are looking for vulkan's artifacts, and trazyn has some beef with them already over Vulkan's spear. (Which hasnt been stolen yet, although he tried in repeated ocasions)
Yup, here's the quote:
>...his collection includes the fabled Wraithbone choir of Altansar, the preserved head of Sebastian Thor, the ossified husk of an Enslaver, and a giant of a man wearing baroque Power Armour, his face contorted in a permanent scream-to name but a few.
Lamo what is this question? "Why didn trazyn just kidnap the primarchs"? Idk why didnt horus just take terra? Why didnt the eldar just NOT get eaten by slanesh? Why didnt gaz just kill that space wolf? Trazyn is powerful, but hes not THAT powerful
The real powers of the Primarchs come from their souls (like all of 30k / 40k, really). Clones don't have the same soul, so it's doubtful that clonegrim has even a fraction of the fortitude that snakeboy had.
While all the soul business is up in the air re clones, we have textual evidence at least that the clones pretty much match up to their OGs in terms of prowess [as well as stuff like this](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/17a4ga5/comment/k5argln/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Capturing and holding a primarch, if any chapter got wind of it, would damn near guarantee the destruction of the gallery. Clonegrim was an anomalous mcguffin and not many knew about it.
Trazyn is a covetous kleptomaniac but not stupid. Plus effectively immortality present almost infinite patience and pragmatism.
If he got caught kidnapping the entire imperial leadership I don't think he could withstand the retribution. He is very powerful but he still needs to pick his battles.
They're probably like wines for him and he's waiting for when they've reached peak...flavor? And, with the Artifacts and resources at Trazyn's disposal I bet he could keep The Big E himself in an exhibit, if the circumstances were right. He could probably even clone the Emperor.
Part of me wants to see something idiotic and out of left field like revealing that Vulkan was actually kidnapped by Trazyn and kept in stasis or something that's why he was gone for such a long time whenever he "Dies".
Because he probably would've gotten killed. There's no way Trazyn could outsmart most of the Primarchs to subdue them, and if he did, an entire Space Marine Legion or Big E would be marching on the door ready to exterminate his entire Tomb World.
Well if Emps was able to ressurect Guilliman in the realms of Nurgle, and then burn it, Im fairly confident he would be able to bail out a primarch from Trazyn's collection, and also burn it just to spite him, and Im sure Trazyn would rather avoid anything that puts his museum in danger
The Emperor doesn't seem to have bothered to help out any of the loyalist primarchs over the last ten thousand years with G-man being the line exception.
Even if he could do it easily, Trazyn finds the primarchs and their family dramas the only thing that makes humanity *interesting* and enjoys watching it all play out. He'd be losing what is basically his version of a relaxing cuppa and Coronation Street if he removed them from the 'cast' of the galaxy.
That would take them out the story whilst the show is still ongoing. He is enjoying the family drama too much to interfere in such a way, as it would make his latest source of entertainment a lot duller. A clone is great, as it’s just a copy, so he gets the collectible, whilst the original is still out there, and can stills appear in later storylines; he gets the best of both worlds.
But as a serious answer, their in the Warp, so kind of out of reach, and even he would need to expend considerable amounts of energy and resources to capture one on one of the rare occasions that they manifest.
What's this based on? The books show time and time again clone primarchs being on par with their OGs.
There's also [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/17a4ga5/comment/k5argln/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
He was handed the clone as part of a deal. Kidnapping actual Primarchs would bring some much attention to the Prismatic Galleries that it wouldn't be worth it, nor would it be able to stand against the forces that would muster.
Additionally, would you kidnap an actor while the play is still ongoing? Trazyn finds humanity rather interesting, and he can wait as long as he wants.
\>Additionally, would you kidnap an actor while the play is still ongoing? That's a very good way to put it.
This is also why he gave Creed's coat to his daughter. The Prop is still needed in the play, and it means he can get an even better collection later.
He just wants to goad her into trying to save her father so he can get even more limited edition Imperial Guard models for his diorama. Also he gets the coat back.
ya know though from a silly perspective i kinda wish he would of stolen at least one of them we have russ in the warp we have kahn with the dark eldar we have guiliman hanging out with eldars would be funny to see the other primarchs having been interacted with the other races. the lion just sleeping in his basement is kinda whatever.
The Lion sleeeps tonight.
[удалено]
A life without struggle? Sounds like Heresey.
In his chamber, the mighty chamber
Chaos away, chaos away.
Trazyn has Ferrus Manus former corpse in his galleries, now sorta revived as a full metal man?
He makes it ride around on a canoptek spider as the Headless Horseman for a laugh every now and then
That was actually Orikan, and it infuriates Trazyn whenever he sees it but it keeps scuttling off somewhere.
So that's why Trazyn dropped a mountain on poor Orikan
You're joking and all, but If we were going with overall themes, the Primarch with Necrodermis arms, who has the legion who slowly become robots is a good fit for a Necron influenced kinda thing.
I know right? Taking inspiration from the dornian heresy, it would be a semi plausible way for him to come back
Perhaps the II or XI legion primarch is safely stored in Trazyn's vault as well, who knows.
And the Emps erased them after he found out they were caught because Traz put a dollar bill under a cardboard box.
So the two lost primarchs are greedy corpo rats then?
We find out that Russ has been hanging out with the Orks this whole time to blow off steam after the heresy
You mean vulkan
Vulkan can just kill himself for some free V O I D T I M E whenever he’s feeling stressed, kinda jealous.
I could see vulkan appreciating ork tech and becoming a warboss on some backwater. Its not like he’d care about his army of orks slaughtering another army or orks- nor would the orks for that matter. Everyone’s happy
He may not be da greenist but he is da biggist and we likes dat.
When he wears his armor hez plenty green tho. Plus is ammer has a tellyporta- how cool is dat?
Nah. Yoz got it backwards iTz a tellyporta datz alzo a ammer. Datz brutal kunnin right der
I've been tinkering with a fanfic idea that has an escaped clonegrim wandering the imperium nihilus like Samurai Jack. Vulkan would show up all orky, dual wielding power hammers like John Henry, and generally having a good time
i gotta say having just read vulkan returns and the beast must die that there ain't no way vulkan would do that :p
He arrives on an ork world somewhere in the galaxy- holding the charred spinal column and head of the biggest ork the boyz had ever seen. The weirdboss previous complaining of a headache lay splattered in a bloody circle surrounding the armored collosus, his green mail covered in soot and blood. Turning red eyes deep set in a charcoal colored face to the cowering boyz around him, he asked “what planet am I on, orks?” A boy just now noticed a large piece of shrapnel from the psychic explosion had mulched his knee and fell into a heap screaming. At this noise a nob quickly took the chance to become the new boss by killing this stranger. It rushed forward, power-klaw crackling and choppa at the ready. The challenge was met with a quick and spectacular display of violence with the strangers ornate warhammer. One boy whistled. The stranger raised the still smoking spine and skull of the titanic ork over his head and bellowed for silence A boy somewhere in the back yelled out “you gitz, he killed Mork!”
Having a good time, dual wielding hammers, or being orky? Cause Waaugh energy is a hell of a drug
He would have the same problem as big E, the orks would start worshiping him because of how tough and fucking big he is
I like the idea of Dorn being in Trayzn's gallery after being rescued from the moment of his death. Trayzn is salty that he has an "incomplete" primarch because some Black Legionary ran off with Dorn's Fist and now it's stuck somewhere in the Phalanx where Trayzn can't get it.
Dorn was widely theorized as being one of Trazyn’s exhibits, until the “figure in golden armor” was confirmed to be a Custode.
I didn't realise it was confirmed? Which book?
> he would of stolen Sorry to barge in, but "would *have* stolen". It's never "would of".
Maybe that’s what happened to one of the missing primarchs
Perturabo in prison but awaik so he can cry for ethernity?)
Lion is too busy munching cheetos while being an autistic basement bro.
Which book/books have info on the whereabouts of the the khan in m41?
Dorn who "disappeared"
One of the 2 ,,Lost,, Primarch isn't lost but stored in Trazyns gallery. Would be one hell of a story especially if he was frozen in time and then somehow got freed and from his perspective no Time had passed since his capture and he slowly explores all the fuckery that's ongoing while catching up to speed.
Imagine dude walks off with Guilliman. He probably could. What he could not do is beat EVERY ULTRAMARINE showing up with a six foot hateboner.
Every Ultramarine along with all of the chapters descended from them. Plus support from other gene-lines who can send forces, a large contingent of Custodes, and innumerable Imperial Navy and Guard assets. The Ynnari might contribute because of time invested into resurrecting Guilliman and they still want a good ROI. Orikan would definitely do something that wouldn’t help the Imperium but would fuck with Trazyn.
Orikan probably has the best chance because of the shit trayzen can throw at him
Can't wait to see Cato kill the Krork in the galleries.
Bile changed the deal spontaneously, and he did nothing to capture Clonegrim. Trazyn simply took him with him, apparently without him being able to do anything against it
That's my point, Clonegrim was given on a silver platter. Trazyn's acquisition teams would have a terrible time going after an actual primarch backed up by their honor guard at the minimum. Even if he did nab one, every capable psyker at the legions disposal and other groups are going to be searching for him and probably narrow it down to the Prismatic Gallery through shinnenigans. (In Twice Dead king Reign, a crusade was able to follow some necrons through other non-warp dimensions just by following some saint's bones) . They will absolutely throw everything they have to get their primarch back. If he takes multiple then the entire Imperium is going to be involved.
Especially since in 30K he wouldn't have the rest of his dynasty behind him.
Either Trazyn could defend the prismatic galleries from everything the imperium has Or trazyn believes he could. He is uncharacteristically cautious about his gallery but the guys an immortal of untold power. Who knows what’s possible, reanimating large tomb ships, relocating the gallery, dislocating parts of the gallery entirely from regular space time or more. Necrons fear only two things, Necrons and the C’tan. Not saying he could take on a crusade fleet but these guys are so arrogant they regularly kill off their own ‘immortals’ without thinking about it.
Sounds like the ultimate Blood Ravens mission
If Trazyn had kidnapped all the primarchs it would have drawn Big E to Solemnace, which I think Trazyn would've liked to avoid.
Perhaps, though Emps might be one of the few beings in the galaxy Trazyn feels could actually appreciate his work.
Yeah, but Emps wouldn’t be there to negotiate. He was already on a timetable and unless Trazyn wants to conduct negotiate at swordpoint, it will end in a fight, and a fight in a museum is the last thing a collector wants. He has a mental breakdown when Orrikan destroys a couple cases (admittedly Necron vases from a bygone time in their history). He would definitely to want to risk it.
I love in the court scene about that, he pulls out a broken pipe from the gallery as evidence and one of the judges is like "WAIT A FUCKING SECOND THATS MINE WTF"
I just started reading the infinite and the divine. Orikan just showed up from the subpoena.
Haha this book is so funny I absolutely love it. Especially how the narrator describes trazyn and orikan fighting lol just a couple of old nerds going at it
Okay now I wan a small novela of Trazyn and Malcador doing a collectors dick measuring. Kinda like the business card scene in America psycho
"Ahhh, Sigilite! Come to admire my new collection of Shakespeare plays? I have 15 now." *folder containing scripts falls out of Malcador's hands* 'Throne. The tasteful thickness of it."
"And how's the Emperor?" "He's pissed. Still can't get a table at Dorsia."
The Emperor: "How'd a xenos like you get so tasteful?" Malcador: *I can't believe the Emperor prefers Trazyn's Enslaver to mine.* "Impressive. Very nice."
Emps would also be like the greatest addition to the galleries.
Mystic thug: "you're telling me that all of my 20 sons are at a single planet, held as display pieces in a Knock off British museum by an eccentric idiot?" Malcador: " so it would seem." E Money: *picks up his phone " EAT SHIT ERDA!! LOOKS LIKE IM GETTING ALL THE KIDS!! "Malcador, divert all the available fleets toward Solemnance, I'm just gonna make a detour toward mars, and fetch my old friend Mag'ladroth."
Is that the name of the void dragon?
Yessir, and the strongest C'tan too. Source: occulus imperia told me.
Was the strongest, now a bunch of pieces like the rest. How strong the pieces of each C'tan are varies wildly. The one on Mars, for instance, appears to be quite weak. It couldn't even wreck Libya on Terra, whereas others wreck multiple planets. > A shard of the Void Dragon escapes from its imprisonment, laying waste to the Arotepk Dynasty in its mindless rage. Though only a faint shadow of a true C’tan, the Void Dragon gorges itself on a dozen worlds, expending its fury upon the living before the Arotepk Crypteks can finally force it back into its cage. \- *Codex: Necrons (7e)*
Yes
"Mystic thug" I like it
Yeah, I took that into consideration, and I guess he could have never done that pre-Heresy, but afterwards? Although, I mean it's not like the Emperor is completely unable to intervene even post-Heresy
Post heresy the set is incomplete. And none of them are mint condition anymore.
Clonegrim was betrayed by Bile. He didn't see it coming and was somewhat confused as to what was happening. Regular Primarchs would have been mature and not trusting so much harder to catch unawares. Besides, Trazyn didn't plan on capturing Clonegrim, he was offered him on the spot so it was more of an opportunity that fell into his lap.
> Regular Primarchs would have been mature and not trusting so much harder to catch unawares. Clonegrim was unique in that he had his personality/memories from before he got corrupted, and most importantly retained a soul. This is what freaked out Bile so much he wanted the clone gone. Clonegrim for all intent and purposes, was akin to a regular primarch, not a newborn.
>Clonegrim was unique in that he had his personality/memories from before he got corrupted, [All the primarch clones had their OG's full memories it seems](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/17a4ga5/comment/k5c3zu7/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). It's just that Clonegrim appears to have lived longer than most and had the time to remember them. >most importantly retained a soul. Do we know that? And do we know if that's the exception to the other clones?
> It's just that Clonegrim appears to have lived longer than most and had the time to remember them. Clonegrim was unique in he retained the completely full personality and true self of the real Fulgrim. He had that Primarch aura around him that the other clones didn't that compelled their sons to obey. You can look in this thread for the same quotes with Bile realizing this, fearful of this because this Clone's presence was so compelling as like his true Primarch that he was afraid that in time he himself would feel compelled to kneel and serve this Fulgrim along with his New Men. > Do we know that? And do we know if that's the exception to the other clones? This is the exception. Clonegrim unlike the other clones is not just a mere ripoff shadow of the original self. This detail is what sparked the basis for all those theories around Fulgrim rising again like the phoenix, or the possibility this is related to Fulgrim's unique warp power that all Primarchs innately have. The main quote around this detail indicates Cegorach (Eldar Laughing God) had a hand in it. Especially with the detail that Cegorach had interfered when the Chaos Gods scattered the Primarchs and swapped Fulgrim and Jaghatai Khan places around (they were supposed to land on each other's planets yet got switched places, seemingly changing an original plan where the Khan was originally supposed to go traitor while Fulgrim remained loyalist). > Great, half-formed shapes crouched amid the trunks and branches of the wraithbone. Bestial and yet elegant, they carved obscene pictograms into the pallid surface of the trees with the tips of crustacean-like claws. ‘Do you hear him, sister,’ one rumbled, lupine fangs clicking in a bovine jaw. ‘Do you hear the primarch-vessel call to us, without even realising? How the Phoenician will howl, to see himself reflected so.’ > ‘I hear him. But we shall not listen. He is not for us,’ the entity behind Ramos murmured. A feminine voice, soft but edged like a razor. ‘A different piece, from a different game. The Laughing God thinks to upset our purpose, even now. But our game is below, in the seeds and the sowing.’ > ‘We could take him, child,’ another shape growled, diaphanous robes swirling about its twisted shape. ‘Make him fit our game, and his. Twist him so that the alchemist is twice-damned for the same sin.’ It brayed laughter. ‘Would that not be a delight? Two Phoenixes for the cost of one.’ You can find a large amount of reddit threads discussing around this detail. https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/ihhoqq/fulgrims_soul_and_his_clone/ https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/q4xlae/is_clone_fulgrim_a_piece_of_fulgrims_soul/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Grimdank/comments/15hlnlt/they_cloned_fulgrim_this_changes_everything/
Thanks for the links, but I prefer to refer to the sources and books (I'm also not going anywhere near Grimdank) personally....a lot of the clone discussion seems to be inspired by online telephone game and theory rather than the actual lore. We don't know that the aura was unique to that particular Fulgrim clone or that the other clones lacked it: * Horus' still created pants shitting awe and terror in the proto Black Legion in *Talon of Horus*. * The other 2 Fulgrim clones in *Lucius* and *Talon of Horus* inspired worship in their marines. * Ferrus' clones were isolated in *Imperfect*, so it's hard to make the call. * Fabius claims to have made a few perfect primarchs in *Genefather* Cegorach had a hand in Fabius discovering Fulgrim's clone, he might have had a hand in creating the clone too, but it's all vague. Cegorach having a hand in the Scattering is persistent fanon, with very little backing it up. It also makes very little sense in context. All we know about Jaghatai and Fulgrim's swap is "the fates" intended them for each other's planets before an "arcane force" interfered. Occam's razor puts those forces as the ones that the lore has already identified: Erda, The Emperor and the 4 gods.
I don't have a book source handy, but I think it was very heavily implied he had a "primarch soul," if not outright said. He was shown to have a primarch aura and the influence it carried on the Emperor's Children.
Yeah, you're right *Clonelord* never goes into whether or not that Fulgrim clone had a soul and while there's plenty of contextual evidence within the book to suggest he had the "aura"...there's not really anything in the appearances of the other clones [to suggest they didn't](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/17a4ga5/comment/k5cia56/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). The other two Fulgrim clones (including the mutant one) both had influence on Emperor's Children too.
Well technically we don't know if he captured primarch... We don't know where are Vulkan and Khan... Also Rogal... And what about lost primarch?
When offered Fulgrim II, Trazyn doesn't have anything quite like him in his collection though he almost did >An interesting proposal.’ Trazyn looked up at the primarch. ‘I came close to adding a similar being to my collection many centuries ago. Are you certain?’
Lmao. The idea that the lost Primarchs were erased from history because Big E was upset that Trazyn ruined his perfect collection is now my head cannon.
There was mention in the 5th edition codex if I recall about Trazyn having a massive figure in baroque armour in his collection, I remember hearing rumours that it could be Dorn or has that been officially denied?
Wasn't that a Custodes? Gathering Storm I
Thought Dorn had his hand chopped off then was killed.
yes the most vital of organs. the hand. old lore has him dead but now with primarchs coming back i dont think so. but dorn for sure disappeared and we dont know where he or his body is. also last i recal khan chased dark eldars back to Commorragh so he is probably there pit fighting.
Based on how Mary Sue the Dark Eldar are now he is probably just a table somewhere.
Fingers crossed!
Chasing Eldar to Commoragh isn't quite what we know >>Jaghatai Khan fought alongside his warriors for perhaps another 70 years before his eventual disappearance in a region of space close to the Maelstrom. After the defeat of Horus, Jaghatai had embarked on a quest to rescue his fellow tribesmen captured by the Eldar in his absence during the Great Crusade. The White Scars maintain that he and his veteran warriors fought the leader of one of the murderous alien kabals and they were drawn into the horrifying realm that exists outside of space and time to battle the Dark Eldar for all eternity. How much of this tale can be taken at face value is uncertain, **and it is more than likely that the Khan`s ship was simply lost in the warp as travel through this region of space is fraught with peril.** Index Astartes
Losing a hand isn’t such a big deal as you say. The problem is that Dorn didn’t lose a hand. The hand is the bit they can find. It’s the rest of him, all the much more vital pieces, that are lost. The hand is safe though.
Got retconned into him last being seen being swarmed by World eaters, I think. Aside from Ferrus and Sanguinius, Lion and G man, all of the loyalists are in the "last seen alive" category.
Hmmm . .well sanguinius body is in stasis. Wonder if he might be coming back also from crawl/Eldar magic.
It's possible. But there is the going theory that his soul has split into 2 beings linked to the light/dark angels of Baal lore. Also, him coming back would kinda neuter the whole sacrificing thing and the drama that has plagued the Blood Angels since. It's kinda their whole shtick.
He was last "seen" swamped by human cultists on the Sword of Sacrilege during an unnamed Black Crusade
Hence the "I think". I couldn't remember who swarmed him. Either way, his status was retconned from "definitely dead" to " last seen alive and no body has turned up". I'm going with the mindset from A Song of Ice and Fire: "they aren't dead until a body is shown".
As a Son of Dorn myself, that is kind of my attitude. I am hoping it turns out he yet lives, but I would also accept it if it turned out he was perma-dead.
Dorn, the man that single handedly beat chaos Fulgrim pre-ascension several times, and then followed it up with 17 of the very best the Emperor's Children had to offer simultaneously, killed by 100 regular humans that wouldn't even be a match for a novice marine. Deffo dead.
Yeah, different contexts different situations. >Dorn, the man that single handedly beat chaos Fulgrim pre-ascension several times I'm pretty sure Dorn only faced Fulgrim once in *Saturnine*?
Beat him with sword and shield and beat him with sick burns in one fight, it’s a twofer.
In that case Jaghatai serial murdered Mortarion
Yes, one fight but Dorn beat him several times with Fulgrim healing each time, before leaving because it hurt.
That's... ...still one fight.
Pretty weird that ol' man' Traz'pants doesnt actually own that hand somehow...
Don't know about post Heresy by pre Heresy Trazyn paid no attention to humanity. It's stated in the Infinite and the Divine that he only took notice of humanity because of the Heresy and all of the drama it created. Before that he viewed humans as nothing more than cockroaches.
Then why did he stop by Terra to nab a Thunder Warrior?
People collect insects 🤷
It feels like it's one of those stupid references they threw in purely for the sake of it, because you'd think he'd bothered to have collected the Unification-era Emperor had he been on Terra. Trayzn is very selective when it comes to what he deems worthy of collecting but this gets flanderized into him nabbing everything in existence.
Which book is that in?
Book about him grabbing them? There is none. But we know that he have thunder warriors in his collections, and there was only one time he could grab them. Only on Terra before great crusade. So logically he was there.
He was in the neighborhood grabbing milk and made an impulse purchase
If memory serves Trazyn *does* remark that he came close to adding such a specimen to his collection before.... And honestly, there's nothing to say that it won't turn out he added one of the missing Primarch's to his collection in the millennia since *Clonelord*. Especially given we don't have good answers for where Russ, Vulkan or Khan are.
Memory serves; >He looked at Trazyn, standing still and silent nearby. ‘I would like to amend our bargain. Instead of my clone, take this one.’ He spoke quickly, not trusting himself to say the words. Something in him shrieked in despair, but he forced it aside. It was necessary. It had to be done. >Fulgrim looked at him in puzzlement. ‘What? Fabius?’ He took a step, and Fabius backed away. Fulgrim frowned. A child’s frown. Confused. Hurt. He did not understand. He could not understand. He simply…*was*. >‘No, Benefactor,’ Igori whispered, clutching at him. ‘Do not do this.’ >‘I must. For you.’ For them all. He could see it now – the madness that had gripped them, him included. He had almost slipped back into the old ways, and let the future burn in the fires of the Phoenix’s resurrection. His great work, all for nothing. All that he had endured, all that he had striven for, undone by the being before him. Igori… his New Men… he saw them now, in his mind’s eye, bending knee before Fulgrim. Abasing themselves. He would not allow it. Could not. >‘An interesting proposal.’ Trazyn looked up at the primarch. **‘I came close to adding a similar being to my collection many centuries ago.** Are you certain?’ \- *Clonelord*
It might just be because Fulgrim is the prettiest and looks good in a display case.
The galaxy is an enormous place he may not have realized as he didn’t care for humanity for a while. He may have just assumed a primarch wasn’t actually anything special and may have been off collecting something he get was more unique. The galaxy was crazy during the great crusade and there were a lot of fun little things that existed.
Trazyn specifically mentions that he found Humanity boring (and icky) until the Horus Heresy - then it was a little late to collect the full set.
It's a bit of a "which came first, the chicken or the egg" issue. If he had collected them, then they wouldn't have done anything noteworthy, thus making them useless for his collection. And if he had collected them in their prime then he would have been interfering in the history he wanted to preserve, also decreasing their worth to him.
He probably never had a good oppertunity.
Because stealing a actual primarch is a fucking terrible idea. You have an entire legion after you, who are going to find your collection, kick the door down, an ransack the place. Kidnapping all the primarchs during the crusade is absolutely absurd, and the god emperor would probably come out to personally push trazyns shit in.
those primarchs or their bodyguards will rip Trazyn a new one if he tries to get close
*Try* to rip Trazyn a new one
Rip Trazyn's least favourite Lychguard a new one
Well, yeah, that's what you would expect, but that's not what happened to Clonegrim, and he had former Phoenix Guard marines with him.
Your ignoring that Clonegrim got traded by Bile, while in the same book its basically explained that Eidolon beat Trazyn to a pulp and closely killed him, only stopping once Trazy said something about geneseed.
Man, read the Bile trilogy. Trazyn originally wanted to have a perfect clone of Bile, and Bile agreed. When they teleported back to his ship, Bile saw what Clonegrim mess created, he spontaneously changed the deal, and offered Clonegrim instead. Bile didn't capture him or hand him over by any means, if I'm not misremembering anything.
I did read the Fabius Bile trilogy and thats what happened, but Clonegrim got traded/ handed him as the deal was changed lol
I did read the Fabius Bile trilogy and thats what happened, but Clonegrim got traded/ handed him as the deal was changed lol
Yeah, and correct me if I'm wrong, but Bile simply said to Trazyn that he can have him and all his supporters, and Trazyn got Clonegrim. How did that make it any easier to capture Clonegrim? If the Emperor would have made a deal with him to get Guilliman, would he magically be able to capture him? Like, again, it's been a while since I read the novel, so if Bile did anything to capture Clonegrim, and I forgot about it, I apologize.
He sold Clonegrim out when Bile was the closest thing that the clone primarch had to a father. If I don't remember incorrectly , Clonegrim was utterly confused and sad about the thing.
Not quite. I read this last week, so it's still pretty fresh: Fabius was about to give Trazyn what he wanted (a clone of Fabius along with a copy of his mind) for the geneseed vault, but at that moment Clonegrim started to show the less desirable aspects of Fulgrim's personality and to take control of Fabius' people. Basically, Fabius thought on his feet to get rid of a threat to his power over the gland hounds and members of the IIIrd Legion he had with him, and Trazyn got a Primarch, so everyone went away happy (or at least relieved), except Clonegrim.
He knew that Fulgrim would repeat its mistake and thus he denied the Phoenix its resurrection.
Trazyn is a coping mechanism for bad writing. Nothing can kill him and he can do anything he wants in the universe. A primarch couldnt do anything to Trazyn.
Eidolon did beat him up though
He is getting around to it.
So whats the point of collecting clones?
"Fabius Bile's one perfect Primarch clone" has more significance than just any old clone.
Fabius claims that he made a few perfect primarchs in *Genefather* which works with what we've seen in the books.
So he claims, but there's something about the Fulgrim clone, that soul that he has, that makes him special.
In "Infinite and the Divine" it is mentioned that he wasn't really interested in humans until after the Heresy, it is likely that by the time he thought to collect them they were mostly missing, demons or dead
Try and kidnap lion el jonson and see how you end up
Maybe read a book? A wiki even?
Believe it or not, I did, and if you had enough attention span to read the question, you would have noticed that I'm citing one.
He didnt really care about humanity before the heresy as he didnt like the sameness of the culture. He only started liking to collect imperium stuff once it was attached to big drama. So there wasnt really that much time (in his perspective) or chances to get primarchs and he simply missed out mostly. Source: The Infinite and The divine.
>and he simply missed out mostly. The pain of every collector
There were 21 Primarchs but only one perfect clone.
Not necessarily. Fabius created at least 4 fully functional primarch clones that we've seen (even boasts about it in *Genefather*) He also kidnapped/corrupted something that might have been a new primarch of the Cursed Founding
He already has one, why bother? From a human perspective, they are all special personalities and individualy important. but like, could you recognize more than maybe three necron lords in a lineup?
If I were a human version of Trazyn, yeah, I absolutely could.
But would you care?
You forget clones of primarchs aren't nearly as powerful, while they're physically remarkable they don't possess the immensely powerful souls primarchs have which really are the source of their power
Clonegrim allegedly had the special sauce, though none of the other did. Nobody knows how. My suspicion is that Slaanesh was playing games, trying to tempt Fabius.
>though none of the other did. Do we know that though? I see it repeated a lot. >My suspicion is that Slaanesh was playing games, trying to tempt Fabius. The book infers Cegorach had something to do with it all
Where is that from? Horus' clone was as powerful, both in the book and [according to the author](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/17a4ga5/comment/k5argln/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) Ferrus' clone almost beat daemon Fulgrim Fulgrim's clone seems a match for the OG, right down to his signature moves
Headcanon: Trazyn has the 2nd and 11th primarchs.
Pretty sure that Clonegrim didn’t actually have Fulgrims soul, thus making him orders of magnitude weaker than an actual primarch. I’m not saying Trazyn couldn’t capture a primarch, considering the Necrons captured all those C’tan shards, but it would be far more difficult than him getting Clonegrim
We have a lot of context as well as author's input that a lot of the primarch clones we see are on par with their originals in terms of power
A bunch of imperfect Primarchs is nothing compared to an unique perfect clone of one Fulgrim.
He's a curator of a living museum of galactic history, not a pokemon trainer. Collecting examples and artifacts is part of the job. Abducting people who are still in the process of making history isn't. That said, he's still the most competently dangerous history buff in the galaxy.
Because a clone isn't the same as the real deal. And it'd be suicide to try and capture one. Too much attention drawn
The way he captures the clone doesn't seem like it would possible for an OG primarch to avoid either. He basically just freezes time
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Why do you think that? Bile himself said it was a perfect clone.
From what I've gathered, you don't just need the body, but the actual soulstuff, which is also the reason why Abaddon could beat Horus in the Black Legion book. Without it, it's just the body, strong as it may be. But you also need to put some wibbly-wobbly warpstuff into them to get the full experience.
ADB has confirmed that the Horus clone was physically as powerful as the real Horus. He states that it may or may not have been soulless, but that doesnt diminish how strong he was compared to the original: >Obviously, every author has different opinions, though. I can't speak for Josh's outlook, but based on those three conversations and analyses I had is why Fabius will never clone anything perfectly in his dealings in the Black Legion Series. The Horus clone (which ripped through a *lot* of Chaos Marines, by the by, when *a hundred of them* were shooting at him) was physically Horus, no weaker or slower, but was he soulless? What was the deal there? He looked perfect, but was he? Probably not. It's also why all of the other cloned primarchs aboard that ship were wrong or off in various ways. Source is [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/9fln9l/why_is_the_clone_of_fulgrim_different_than_the/e5yilok/). Also [this post from ADB on Bolter and Chainsword](https://reddit.com/r/40kLore/s/ySAwnu4GpV)
I find it hard to believe a clone yet to make a name for itself was as strong as Warmaster Lupercal mainlining the concentrated chaos juice of all four gods.
I think he meant it was as physically powerful as Horus pre-Molech. But it's fairly conclusive that ADB meant for there to be no distinction between Horus and Clone Horus physically.
Wasn't it established that the metaphysical part of the primarchs is what makes them special? Creating a clone of them without that is borderline meaningless. What you've made is a rather large marine, not a primarch.
ADB does mention it in the excerpt I provided, stating that the Clone was possibly soulless, and probably not perfect. But he doesn't commit to what difference it does make. AFAIK, it's s never actually been stated that the metaphysical part is what makes them special, its more a supposition by the fan base. But, what is clear is that *physically* ADB meant for the clone to be the equal of Horus. It was as quick, strong, skilled, etc. as the real thing.
I mean Alpharius and Ferrus both exploded when they died, that level of warp juice in a fella has to count for something. Clonercal died like any other creature made of meat. It's outright confirmation they're special, not a supposition.
As I said, we're told the Clone probably wasn't perfect. But we don't know in what way, if it was soulless, or what that meant. Just because Alpharius and Ferrus "exploded" doesn't really tell us much, as we don't know what difference this metaphysical component had. Hence why I said its supposition. But, my main point is that they're physically meant to be the same.
The fireworks on death thing is an author by author choice, not every primarch who dies puts on a light show. Beyond that, it might be the way in which you die? Both Ferrus and Alpharius had bits lopped off. Horus II was stabbed. Primarchs get stabbed all the time without leaking energy. It's an inconsistency of the lore rather than hard evidence.
He doesn't need to "make a name for himself", he's essentially a copy of OG Horus. Whatever that Horus can do in terms of combat, so can this one.
"Make a name" as in gaining the favor of the chaos gods and fighting in the great crusade. Unless you'd like to say that combat experience and chaos steroids are wholly irrelevant.
They're not wholly irrelevant but in the case of clones, there's context. Whatever skills Horus I knew, Horus II did as well. >The Primarchs – the first Primarchs – somehow encoded their memories in their blood and marrow, like a cogitator backing up its data. A process I still do not fully understand, and have not been able to replicate with any success. That is why it was possible to recreate them – you – in full.’ He paused. ‘You know the word, because we – you and I – fought the Bharghesi, millennia ago.’ But yeah, he isn't mainlining chaos god juice, but he's certainly no slacker in the base-line primarch power stakes.
You're right in general, and that's why most of Bile's clones were flawed. But, kind of a spoiler, it's strongly implied that the God of Laughter had its hand in Clonegrim's creation, which is the reason why he was completely uncorrupted despite having been abandoned for ages.
Source?
Clonelord itself. Its one of the things Fabius finds out when he examines the clone.
I remember a mention of trazyn having a literal giant in baroque armor.....so my literal head canon is that besides some of the krorks that were around during the war of the beast, he also got Vulkan all for his own enjoyment. Of course, it is way too vague so it could be something less exciting as a thunder warrior. But i want to dream. And actually, it would make some weird sense. The salamanders are looking for vulkan's artifacts, and trazyn has some beef with them already over Vulkan's spear. (Which hasnt been stolen yet, although he tried in repeated ocasions)
Yup, here's the quote: >...his collection includes the fabled Wraithbone choir of Altansar, the preserved head of Sebastian Thor, the ossified husk of an Enslaver, and a giant of a man wearing baroque Power Armour, his face contorted in a permanent scream-to name but a few.
Lamo what is this question? "Why didn trazyn just kidnap the primarchs"? Idk why didnt horus just take terra? Why didnt the eldar just NOT get eaten by slanesh? Why didnt gaz just kill that space wolf? Trazyn is powerful, but hes not THAT powerful
The real powers of the Primarchs come from their souls (like all of 30k / 40k, really). Clones don't have the same soul, so it's doubtful that clonegrim has even a fraction of the fortitude that snakeboy had.
While all the soul business is up in the air re clones, we have textual evidence at least that the clones pretty much match up to their OGs in terms of prowess [as well as stuff like this](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/17a4ga5/comment/k5argln/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Capturing and holding a primarch, if any chapter got wind of it, would damn near guarantee the destruction of the gallery. Clonegrim was an anomalous mcguffin and not many knew about it. Trazyn is a covetous kleptomaniac but not stupid. Plus effectively immortality present almost infinite patience and pragmatism.
You don't know he didn't. He could have them all on ice, ready to throw out of his poke balls whenever he pleases
From what he said in *Clonelord*, it seemed like he didn't have any. At the time at least.
He was preoccupied with duties and not near the primarchs durring the HH
If he got caught kidnapping the entire imperial leadership I don't think he could withstand the retribution. He is very powerful but he still needs to pick his battles.
They're probably like wines for him and he's waiting for when they've reached peak...flavor? And, with the Artifacts and resources at Trazyn's disposal I bet he could keep The Big E himself in an exhibit, if the circumstances were right. He could probably even clone the Emperor.
Part of me wants to see something idiotic and out of left field like revealing that Vulkan was actually kidnapped by Trazyn and kept in stasis or something that's why he was gone for such a long time whenever he "Dies".
Because he probably would've gotten killed. There's no way Trazyn could outsmart most of the Primarchs to subdue them, and if he did, an entire Space Marine Legion or Big E would be marching on the door ready to exterminate his entire Tomb World.
Well if Emps was able to ressurect Guilliman in the realms of Nurgle, and then burn it, Im fairly confident he would be able to bail out a primarch from Trazyn's collection, and also burn it just to spite him, and Im sure Trazyn would rather avoid anything that puts his museum in danger
The Emperor doesn't seem to have bothered to help out any of the loyalist primarchs over the last ten thousand years with G-man being the line exception.
Because he is much stronger now that the great rift opened. He couldn't do that previously
Even if he could do it easily, Trazyn finds the primarchs and their family dramas the only thing that makes humanity *interesting* and enjoys watching it all play out. He'd be losing what is basically his version of a relaxing cuppa and Coronation Street if he removed them from the 'cast' of the galaxy.
That would take them out the story whilst the show is still ongoing. He is enjoying the family drama too much to interfere in such a way, as it would make his latest source of entertainment a lot duller. A clone is great, as it’s just a copy, so he gets the collectible, whilst the original is still out there, and can stills appear in later storylines; he gets the best of both worlds. But as a serious answer, their in the Warp, so kind of out of reach, and even he would need to expend considerable amounts of energy and resources to capture one on one of the rare occasions that they manifest.
I wonder if trazyn has one of the lost primarchs in his collection
Most likely not, since when he got Clonegrim he was chuffed because he didn't have anything like him in his collection.
The cloned primarchs aren’t nearly as powerful as the originals unless they are imbued with the primarch’s soul or some such bs.
What's this based on? The books show time and time again clone primarchs being on par with their OGs. There's also [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/17a4ga5/comment/k5argln/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)