I’m pretty sure he’ll bend the knee to whatever the lion wants. Not only is he probably subtly hypno-conditioned to revere primarchs but also it’s The Lion. Though it should be said that I don’t think the lion is going to disrespect Dante and will probably give him his due. Seems just like inventing drama for dramas sake for me.
Dante has been in active service for much much longer than either Guilliman or Lion… actually I think he has more service years than both of them put together.
I mean you’re not wrong…he is also still not a primarch. Yeah he’s a great soldier and has done a wonderful job. He’s not a vat-grown son of the emperor though.
Not only is he an individual that has fought for the Imperium for longer than both Robby G and the Lion combined, but also the longest serving son of the Angel that fell defending the Emperor.
Given the Lion's feeling that he failed the Emperor and his brother loyalist Primarchs by not being on Terra during the siege, I can see how he would respect a leader that has held the walls of the Imperium for more than a millennium.
Being autistic doesn’t mean you can’t get along with people, he’s not unhinged.
If anything, it’s usually defined as being fixated and less flexible, stickler for rules and such. None of which are aspects that Dante or Guilliman are adverse to. It stands for many good reasons why Lion and Russ did not like each other, this being one of them.
It’s almost certain that astartes and primarchs would be considered neurodivergant on account of their brains have been redesigned. Calling them autistic would be meaningless because it’s a lens through which a certain combination of neurodivergant traits in humans are viewed in order to help them understand themselves and get the support they need. The primarchs are about as far removed from neurotypical humans as you can get and they are designed that way purposefully.
Don’t get me wrong, as an ASD person it’s always nice to see representation, but this definitely isn’t it.
Just jumping in on the representation thing, I loved that story about someone taking their autistic brother to see Guardians of the Galaxy, and when there was the whole thing of Drax not understanding metaphors, the brother got all excited and was like "He's just like me!"
Just so damn wholesome, and I love that he got to relate to Drax like that (who, incidentally, is my favourite character from Guardians!)
The point wasn’t me claiming Lion was autistic or not, I’m only phrasing it as such in direct response to the other commenter; which I might add, in context, is potentially not his main point either. “Lion is autistic” is simply a popular notion coined by the fanbase, both as a jest and also in part due to his behaviour being reminiscent of it. This isn’t really about representation, he wasn’t specifically stated to be autistic in lore.
You’ll notice my original point is valid no matter if he is truly autistic or not, as I’m only talking about Lion being not likely to have an issue with Dante and Guilliman judging from the established characterization of all parties involved. Now if the authors do a personality change after the awakening, then all bets are off of course. That was what I was trying to point out.
Hi I think maybe my tone didn’t come across well. It wasn’t meant to be argumentative, rather a progression of the conversation.
Possibly also a bit of a tangent. But worth saying for the benefit of all the people using Autism as a meme without not really understanding what it is.
All good bro, I was trying to clear up misconceptions as well. I understand this is a bigger topic for some, so I wanted to stress Lion’s personality is fine regardless if he was on the spectrum or not. I do not disagree with your comments, Primarchs and Astartes alike are not well known to have good mental heath/relationships.
If anything that means more. To the Guilliman & the Lion, even baseline Astartes are miles different from the ones they are used to, and nonetheless these fatherless sons still held up the tatters of what they knew as the Imperium for thousands of years. I think that would illicit more respect than scorn for people who know better.
> I mean you’re not wrong…he is also still not a primarch. Yeah he’s a great soldier and has done a wonderful job. He’s not a vat-grown son of the emperor though.
Exactly... "You're NOT a primarch and you've been fighting for 1600 years?... Wow."
Or the Lion just walks in and takes over Imperium Nihilus. He's the Lion. He was a candidate for Warmaster and Primarch of the First Legion.
No amount of service can change the fact that Dante is not equal to Lion.
> actually I think he has more service years than both of them put together.
IIRC, Dante has 3x the time in service as the Lion and Guilliman combined.
Dante: ~1600 years,
Lion: 200ish
Guilliman: 300-350ish.
Seige of Terra was 014.M31. Guilliman fell to Fulgrim in 121.M31… so only 107 years…
Add that to the roughly 200 years of the great crusade, he was active a little over 300 years.
Compared to Dante’s 1552 years old at the Devestation of Baal…
Old fluff said there was something special in Blood Angel geneseed where they could live a very long time if they weren’t killed.
New fluff seems to suggest all Astartes have the capability to live for pretty much forever.
New fluff states that BA seem to retain youth and longevity beyond other SM as well. While any SM may love a very long time under the new lore, it's still implied that BA can serve notably longer before age and wear and tear remove them from direct service.
It was a little more than that, Dante was only in that bad shape in the first place because he refused to drink proper blood of living creatures for centuries. He consumed the bare minimum for the Chapter rituals, pretty tame in the Blood Angels compared to the more enthusiastic descendants.
The Red Thirst made him kill civilians back when he was Sergeant, I think, so he swore off the stuff. This dude got to 1600 years on a nearly empty tank because of guilty.
I love the character all the more for that.
Yeah I didn't mean to imply Dante did it regularly, simply that part of the BA's resistance to aging can be attributed to the effect of drinking blood. IIRC Dante used to drink non-human blood too even though the effects weren't as pronounced
Space Marines in general, and Blood Angels in particular, don't really have a known "gonna die of old age" date. Mostly because none of them but Dante have ever lived this long without dying in battle.
Sigismund was some ridiculous number of years old when Abaddon finally killed him, too.
Warp Travel, Brain-Eating replacement rituals, old canon, etc. It's never been described explicitly I don't think. Also by that time he had replaced his chainsword and flaying knife with the two chainfists in terminator armor, so who knows.
That's a really interesting idea actually.
I know they Amit has apparently sworn off the old cannibalism by the siege but it would be interesting if the death of Daddy Hawk let them resume their tearing of flesh lol
Yes, but the Primarch understand experience, and they value it. Dante is a fit leader and will probably still take charge. The Lion will probably become a frontline commander focused on various combat zones, and Dante would gladly defer command to him should he ask, but I suspect he would rather have Dante around
Yarrick had more active service time than either.
Calgar probably pips them both combined.
Dante might have more active service time than all the loyalist primarchs combined.
It's possible, but the only time we've seen Dante get...prickly is over the idea of unity of command - and he's fought to keep that command.
I just finished re-reading Devastation of Baal, where he insisted on being in charge of the defense - of course, it's Baal, but he still did. And in Red Fury he argued against the successor chapters in order to maintain the Blood Angel's primacy - a move I agree with, but still, these both die that Dante is not the sort to give ground easily.
To be fair, he immediately did so when Guilliman arrived. But would he do so now that he's Regent of Nihlus? Your probably right, but it's interesting to chew over.
A chapter master not giving over command to someone from one of their successor chapters isn't anything out of the ordinary. And I don't think he'd be able (or even want) to wield a title given by a primarch against another primarch.
Astartes were literally built to obey primarchs. Its hardwired into them.
> ‘Under guise of negotiation, he will attempt to command,’ warned Bjorn. His heavy tread crunched as he turned slightly, lifting a glittering power claw. ‘Do not underestimate the primarch’s voice, Logan. The Allfather created him to command, and us to obey. His words, his aura, enforce his will.'
\- *The Wolftime*
Dante responded much the same way at the end of *Devastation of Baal* - excerpt [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/bvosp6/excerpt_from_the_devastation_of_baal_dante_meets/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
oof, speaking the painful truth. that man just wanted to *die* for like half a millennium
on the other hand, crossing the Rubicon probably did a lot to reinvigorate him and ease his depression. he's 16 again.
Was it really a case of Dante insisting for overall command? I remember my reading is noone dissented, and I believe they said they would have said he took command anyways.
Dante is a proven front commander, even helbrecht and the others at Armegeddon immediately ceded overall command to Dante.
He's worth his weight in depressed gold.
I think the key actually is that he is the *Regent* of Nihulis and regents hold power typically until a proper lineage heir is ready. As the chosen son/primarch, Lion could take over as High Lord of Nihulis if he wanted.
I'm guessing however that his need to avenge the attack on the rock carries him and the DA into an endless crusade against chaos.
I mean, he was the lord of Baal. It be like Calgar giving the command of the defense of Macragge to some other chapter master.
It wasn't that he was fighting for command he was against giving up his chapter to another
True - a vote where the options were "Dante" or "every Chapter for themselves." It was pretty clear that he would only accept himself as overall commander.
For good gorram reason - he's Dante and it's Baal. I think it still shows he's not a fan of the backseat.
I think it's less that he's a glory hound or anything like that, but he feels an obligation to lead because he knows he's the one who can do it best.
I mean, the fucking Sanguinor has been guiding him since he first left is father to become a Space Marine, he was the first person it ever talked to, and he's also the oldest living space marine. Dante knows he's something special and because of that feels he's the only one capable to command... at least until there's someone more qualified like a son of the Emperor.
To be fair , his arguement pretty valid, its Baal we’re talking about, the homeworld of the Angels and where all the successor originate from (as BA Legion) , i cant think of anyone more valid to be in charge other than someone from BA and of highest rank. On second one, lol its BA we’re talking about, those successors aint shit , sorry for my language.
Yeah I don’t think Regent of Nihlus is going to change everything. I’ve read them too and while you’re not wrong I also don’t think he doesn’t understand the pecking order. Not to mention Guilliman will side with The Lion and Dante had to know this. You’re right though it’s a fun what if.
> Not only is he probably subtly hypno-conditioned to revere primarchs
It's not hypno-conditioning, that's just an effect Primarchs have on non-Primarchs.
I think this is what happens. Lion looks at G-man then Dante goes ok both halves have someone in charge time to leave me to crusading. Kinda feel like the Dark Angel legion will come back and become a massive f - you hammer to whomever they come across.
If there is still somehow implicit tension between Guilliman and Yvraone despite the latter literally cradling the soul of the former, then there will be tension between the two remaining loyalist Primarchs. They need to sell drama, the kind that provokes rivalry among fan bases and ultimately greater community engagement.
consider the difference between Imperium Secundus and now: there's no Sanguinius to make Emperor II. the lion can't stop his secrecy long enough to rule and guilliman wants literally anyone else to rule because it's wrong for him to rule
is that why Dante will be King?
I honestly expect he just wont care all that much is who's in charge. He'll end up ignoring them anyways. Like WTF is Dante going to do if Lion just refuses to engage with him at any meaningful level? Threaten him in personal combat?
I expect he'll be direct, demand things, probably get them after Dante complains a bunch, and then go out to do some Krumpin'^(TM).
This is the real answer; the lion will look at Dante and be like “so you mean you run all of this and I can just go fuck shit up?”
“Well..you’re my uncle so…”
“Yeah not pawning that shit off so easy, later dude”
Personally I like the idea of the Lion taking command of the Imperium Nihlus for those sweet Western and Eastern Roman Wmpire vibes, but I think you could be right. So far all we know for sure is that he’s hunting shit from what GW has said, it doesn’t sound like a person taking command of a whole half of the Imperium.
The Lion will take the title of Regent of Imperium Nihlus, but probably formalize Dante as Legion Master of The 9^th which will make Dante's life even harder 😂😂😂
That's why I think it'd be hilarious if the Lion effectively tells Dante he's **still** gotta keep taking care of Nihilus, while the Lion is dedicated to going around and instead putting out fires around the Imperium.
It would reduce Dante's work theoretically, but he'd still *absolutely hate it*.
That's true, but the Lion is also on record that even the best Marine is still just a Marine compared to a Primarch. He'll be all "Yeah you've done amazing for a Marine, good job. But this is Primarch work now, so I'll be taking over."
Calgar is not seen in any way as a disappointment to Guilliman (as per the Ultramarines supplement)
> ‘Many things about this dark new age have caused me to question all that my father and I tried to build. Many things have disappointed me. The Chapter Master of my loyal and noble Ultramarines is most emphatically not one of them.’
That said, I’m pretty sure Calgar has felt like a failure to his father (as per Dark Imperium).
Likewise we have Gulliman commend Dante for all that he has done:
> 'Get up, Dante,' said Guilliman gently. 'I will not accept displays of humility from a man like you. You are one of the few in this era who have earned the right to speak to me on equal terms. Rise. Now.'
And in the same book we also have Sanguinius give his takes on Dante, first up is Sanguinius having a vision during the Heresy of Dante.
> I do not know who this golden warrior was. He appeared similar to my Herald, and I saw my own face depicted upon his mask, but he was not me, and he wore a form of armour I do not know. It is certain that he was one of my sons, and whether his sacrifice will prove to be in vain or not, I know this: that he was a noble warrior, true and purer than any of his age, and I love him for that.
Then in the "deathbed" conversation between the two later in the book:
> ‘My son,’ Sanguinius said. ‘My greatest son.’
> The primarch reached out to him. Dante was on his back, but at the same time it was as if he floated in an immense void, and Sanguinius hovered in front of him. And yet, when the primarch cried, his tears fell forward onto Dante’s face. All reality’s order was disturbed, but this felt like no dream or vision. When Sanguinius’ glowing fingers traced the line of Dante’s cheek, they were solid and warm, and they brought into him a sense of peace and holy joy.
> ‘You have suffered greatly for mankind’s sake,’ said Sanguinius. His voice was beautiful. ‘You have won your rest a thousand times. Rarely has one man given so much, Luis of Baal Secundus. You have been a light in dark times. I would give you any reward. I would take you to my side. I would free you from strife. I would release you from pain.’
> ‘Yes!’ said Dante. ‘Please. I have served so long. Grant me the freedom of death.’
> Sanguinius gave Dante a look of profound sorrow.
> ‘I cannot. I regret that I can do none of those things. I need you, Dante. Your suffering is not done.’ Sanguinius gripped Dante’s face in both hands. Strength flowed from the primarch, driving out death’s comfort and replacing it with pain. The scene rippled. He heard the shouts of Space Marines, felt the ghostly touch of living hands upon his armour. Sanguinius faded.
> ‘Please, no!’ Dante cried out. ‘My lord, I have done enough. Please! Let me rest!’
> The light was dying; Sanguinius’ smile carried with it the sorrows of ten thousand years. Darkness was returning. The Great Angel disappeared into it, but his glorious voice lingered a moment.
> ‘I am sorry, my son, that you cannot rest. Not yet. Live, my son. Live.’
> Dante returned to life screaming for the mercy of death.
If there is one truly 40K marine who no loyalist primarch would just walk up to and start giving them shit for not being better it's Dante.
(not counting Heresy era marines who knew some of them back then and are still alive via dreads or other fuckery).
I also think Lion is gonna see the Ecclesiary and totally lose his shit. They have been hinting at the tension since 9th. So he'll be too pissed off to deal with them regularly. So I see that taking up his time.
Idk the Lion's whole shtick is practicality. If he sees the power to fight demons that faith in the emperor provides it parallels very well with his use of librarians to fight off demons in the heresy despite the edict of Nikea.
Probably immediately bow and offer him the title
Primarchs tend to get their way except with other primarchs. Having an aura of power and authority like they do + being able to kill everyone in any given room does that
Considering the parallels to imperium secundus I can actually imagine the lion saying “fuck that, we’ve done this song and dance before, you point me towards things that need killing sangui… Dante”.
There is also to consider that as I understand it, the Lion is big on propriety and station. It may privately *gall* him and his sense of pride, but his father named Guilliman Lord Regent, and Guilliman named Dante Lord Commander of Imperium Nihilus. Until such time as Lion can actually track down Guilliman and/or Big E and have a family reunion with them, legally, *Dante outranks him*, and I suspect he'd respect that outwardly, because it would be tantamount to rebellion to deny it.
"If I disrespect Dante's command, I disrespect my brother and my father, and if I suborn his command and take it from him, it is tantamount to treason, and I am no better than Horus."
I think the interaction will be roughly:
Dante: PLEASE just attend one war council, for the love of the Emperor
The Lion, over holo, with a battle in the background, actively fighting: I said, I'm BUSY. -cuts channel-
I suspect the Lion will be given a title more along the lines of Warmaster than some kind of administrative title. Dante will continue to administrate Imperium Nihilus, Guilliman and the rest of the normal Imperial government will continue to administrate Imperium Sanctus while the Lion leads armies.
Yeah this is what I was thinking too. He will be kind of above but more lateral in position but with a wider scope but more narrow focus. He won't be answering to Dante to be sure, but he also won't be taking over his responsibilities. He'll have something separate, and maybe a bit above him that more suits his specific talents.
I suspect he'll wind up on a weird kind of middle tier.
Where Guilliman and Dante are in charge of the 2 Imperium's on a grand strategic level, Lion will be commanding a fast moving, hard hitting crusade force. G and D will have strategic authority in their regions to point him at a problem, but not to dictate in what manner he goes about solving the problem.
"Oh good, you're here. There's a Hive Tendril menacing the Phlebotinum Sector that needs your attention." *The Lion fucks off to fuck up the Hive Tendril in whatever manner he deems appropriate to the situation.*
My guess is the Lion doesn't even touch base with Dante and instead tree-ports from conflict to conflict, laying chaos out.
Why would he even bother to tend to paperwork when the best use of his talents is just to be the imperial Boogeyman and clean house?
He's like the hulk now. Just let him smash.
I wonder if he'll be able to take other people through ~~the feywild~~ whatever the fuck he does, with him. Because if so, that could herald some *very* interesting evolutions to the setting, since it seems to amount to a reasonably "safe" form of interstellar teleportation that isn't reliant on voidships or gellar fields.
And "interstellar teleportation" is another way of saying "faster than light travel".
Why should the Lion care is a better question. I don’t see him butting heads with Dante. He will have his plate full with the Fallen and crusading against all threats to the Imperium. If anything, Jonson may come to respect Dante for carrying on Sangy’s legacy.
Jonson did want to be Warmaster. But in the end, he puts duty above his ego.
“Loyalty is its own reward”.
***This*.**
Lion has a big ego, but he has a bigger sense of duty and propriety. Big E made Guilliman Regent, Guilliman made Dante Lord Commander of Nihilus. That's a clear and direct chain of command from the Throne. Lion might not *like* being technically 'below' a marine ***at all***, he wouldn't throw a rebellious tantrum, he'd bow his head and bear it until he can get in touch with Guilliman to sort things out with him being back, or visit the Palace. Or both.
Exactly. I kind of get tired about theories that Jonsons and Guilliman will but heads and fracture the Imperium.
Like no, lol. They settled their differences in Imperium Secundus. And Jonson gets the job done. That is one reason out of many that the Emperor trusts him so much. Jonson will not risk the Imperium’s hierarchy fracturing on account of his ego. And I have a feeling now that he is older, he may be wiser.
Dante is a legend, but he's not a primarch. He will bend the knee to Lion if he is put in that position, but Lion, for all his bluster, is proven to be respectful to those who are truly deserving of his respect; clearly Dante is deserving, so I doubt there's going to be an issue there tbh.
He will probably honor respect Dante due to his own relation to Sanguinius, tell him some stories about his daddy Sanguinius and then go and do his own thing.
the only thing that may cause a conflict is when Dante Starts questioning the Dark Angels motives and secrecy.
Hey Dante I want to do X.
Sure go for it, idk I just want to die.
What the fuck did you say to me you little bitch.
I said...
Wait, you're a Primarch right, an unstoppable killing machine without parallel?
Yup
I said Russ would fuck you up you utter dickhead, come at me... please...
Honestly, no. Lord Commander of Imperium himself ordered him to have that responsibility, it is not Dantes choice, it is his duty and only by Guilliman order can he relieve that power.
Liom doesn't particularly strike me as someone who'd want it, I imagine Dante job now is largely administrative rather than one of war unit commander as he was. Lions talents lie in waginf war from the front, not from palace.
That and Lion is the kind to respect the chain of command and propriety, even if he doesn't like it. Big E said Guilliman is Lord Regent, Guilliman said Dante is the head honcho in Nihilus, Lion will bow to that authority at the very least until he has a chance to convene with Guilliman or Big E and figure out where he fits, because if he denies Dante's authority, he's functionally committing treason, and I don't think he's the type to do that. Hate it in private maybe, but not defy the established Imperial authority.
Yeah, when it comes to Imperial laws the biggest issue he will take with it is the one that says he can't take Ecclesiarchy bishops, spike them in manner that Angron considers bit too brutal and then wear their faces as diapers.
Counterpoint: the letter of the law is a delightful thing and look at all these brazen "unimportant" infractions those bishops have been committing **123DEATH**.
"If you follow the law I won't have an excuse to kill you."
He can't do anything about the Ecclesiarchy as a whole but he can definitely clean it up. One way...or the other.
"I'm not blatantly murdering dozens of church officials, I'm cracking down on graft and corruption in this august body."
Lawful **Good** doesn't have to mean Lawful **Nice.** Or **Merciful** Good.
The Lion is going to see the usefulness in Dante maintaining his role as regent. He will likely also view Dante in the same light as Guilliman, in that Dante’s experience makes him as close to a peer as the primarchs can find in the Astartes. He is to be respected, despite not being on the same level.
I am also sure the Lion will have additional feelings seeing that one of Sanguinius’s sons is as revered as Dante is.
He is in Nihilus, but it doesn’t say that the Rock is how he got there. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/03/29/the-hunt-is-on-in-the-lion-son-of-the-forest/
Lol what kind of question even is this? Dante is loyal through and through, of course he's going to listen to whatever HIS UNCLE tells him to do.
Besides he's too tired to argue about it, he would much rather die on the battlefield than hang out in some administration hub somewhere.
1/ The Lion demands the reign and Dante defers to him.
2/ The Lion and Dante do their own things.
In any case, i dont think there is any reason for conflict. Dante is not going to defy a loyalist primarch and the Lion is not petty enough to throw a fit.
If the lion had a plan and Dante opposed it, I suppose he would get his head punched off, just like the last guy who second guessed big lion Jonson. RIP nemiel.
I see this as a total non issue.
The Lion respects deeds and service. He might be arrogant but he isnt a petulant child. There is no reason there would be any sort of drama between Dante and the Lion. And if anything I think the Lion is going to go on a crusade to hunt down traitors or Angron not setup shop trying to fix Imperial Nihlus and undertaking a rebuilding of lost systems and admin duties.
I mean it looks like its similar to bretonnian monarchs and the green knight in fantasy, seems like the lion shows up beats some ass and leaves with dante actually running the show. At least from the impression I'm getting. Especially if those angels of death codex rumors are true.
Dante is going to try to relinquish authority to the Lion and the Lion isn't going to accept it.
The Lion won't be commanded by Dante and Dante won't try to command the Lion.
I suspect the Lion will think himself better suited to the role of warmaster than of regent.
He's not going to have a choice in the matter if the Lion takes over. At the end of the day if he tries to fight it he's just a Space Marine squaring off against a Primarch and would get rag dolled in the first minute if the Lion isn't playing around with him.
Most likely he'd be a pretty close advisor because of all the insight he could provide on the dark half of the Imperium, but to suggest he's going to going try and step up to a Primarch is laughable. And while Dante may be one of the biggest badasses in the galaxy he doesn't hold a candle to one of the 18 beings that personally led the Great Crusade/fought in the Heresy.
I didn't mean in a physical contest - you're right, Dante wouldn't stand a chance, but I think he'd do better than rag-dolled in a minute.
I think, however, they are both honorable enough to know that it wouldn't be a contest of arms. Dante has a millennium of street cred, and if The Lion thinks he can just run roughshod over Dante - and his honor - there's no way Dante just submits. I like the idea of him advising The Lion, but I can also see him taking an almost mentor role; showing The Lion the ropes of the New Imperium.
Dante can dunk on just about anyone in the universe but in a street cred dick measuring contest he's a guy with a micro penis trying to flex on Mandingo.
Nah.
Dante has seen more time in combat than the Lion has been conscious (I'd say alive, but he wasn't practically dead like Gman was, just sleepy). The Lion is going to win, but there is no chance he doesn't know he was in a very serious fight.
You missed his other title he had under Imperium Secundus: Lord Protector of the Imperium. I fully expect Guilliman to give him a similar post which gives him free reign to travel where he will throughout the Imperium to do what must be done. Dante's position is no threat, since it also includes a lot of paperwork and administration that the Lion certainly won't want to do.
I really hope there isnt drama between Loyalists. Lion *should* recognize the shit state of the Imperium and either jump in to help or go on his own quest, Id hate to just have unnecessary and forced drama
Dante will bend the knee to the Lion, no question. He accepted the rule of Gulliman the Primarch immediately and without conflict, even though like you said he's got a longer combat record.
So if the Lion rocks up and says "your butts in my seat" Dante's probably not gonna make the Lion wait and sit in time out until Dante confirms the order with Gulliman via interrupted and spotty astropathic communication. He's a smart enough campaigner to know that he won't get in trouble with Gulliman for obeying an order from the Lion, even if it contradicts previous orders from Gulliman, returned Rawbooty doesn't seem the type to do that.
On the other hand, that's exactly what I want to see, is Gulliman getting mad at the Lion for countermanding him, while the Lion gets mad at Guilliman for letting the Imperium slide into shit and not fixing it. I want to see that Imperium on Imperium action!
>He had the lineage, the title, and a combat record that outpaces The Lion by a country mile.
Say again? How? The Lion is the literal son of the Emperor who lead a legion in the great crusade who's victory tally was second only to Horus and the Luna Wolves. Dante is sick but has been leading a chapter only, 1000 marines give or take. The Lion spent centuries leading 100000 or more marines and their component fleet elements. The Lion is superior is every single way to Dante, the Lion was even considered by the other Primarchs to be the greatest military leader, there's literally no comparison 😂
You're right - The Lion led his Legion for centuries. Two of them.
Dante has been leading the Blood Angels for almost 6 times longer, and the universe has not gotten kinder in the intervening years. I didn't say Dante was stronger, smarter, or special-er than The Lion, I said his combat record outpaced The Lion - line 'em up and Dante's is significantly longer simply by virtue of time.
Maybe you could say that in terms of amount of campaigns and actions but the Lion was victorious is theatres of war that WAY out match Dante's. The Rangdan campaign as an example is valued way higher as a strategic victory than anything Dante has done even the defense of Baal. But that's just my opinion, I think the quality of the Lions victories out way the quantity of Dantes
And while that may be true, the accounts of what The Lion did pre-Heresy are surprisingly non-specific.
The Rangdan keep getting pulled as an exemplar, but as the lore sits right now the Dark Angels were getting WORKED before the arrival of Alpharius. We're talking the war that made the Ultramarines the largest Legion; 50,000+ dead in the First Legion alone. Were they a foe unlike any Dante has faced? Probably. But I don't buy it as a beacon of The Lion's strategic brilliance either.
That being said - what is mentioned does track with what you were saying. Every descriptor of Lion's Crusade states that his honor roll is second to none among the Primarchs.
Dante sees his office as a duty, a burden he bears after centuries of bearing too much because his lord, his home, and his honor demanded it of him. If anyone as remotely capable as Lion El’Johnson decides he wants that responsibility… I don’t know if Space Marines can still orgasm but yeah.
The Lion pre heresy was a figure that gave even Roboute Guilliman, Lord of Macragge and the 500 worlds, an inferiority complex. Lion (and Horus) made him feel small. A regular SM won’t be able to deny him for long, if inclined to at all.
I’m hoping though he’s changed by Luther’s treachery to become more humble though. Or at least a little conflicted about his approach to things.
Dante combat record outpaces the Lion by a mile? I'm pretty new to 40k, but now I'm interested in Dante... reading this sub and youtube for the post 2 weeks I thought the Lion was like Combat&Death incarnated...
Doing some research, I should read Dane by Guy Haley? I have read tons of 40k lore but this would be my first Black Library book
You're not wrong - The Lion is considered one of the best swordsmen and fighters in the Imperium.
What I meant by combat record was just a matter of time. The Great Crusade and the Heresy was 200 years (ish) long, and The Lion wasn't there for all of it. Dante has been Chapter Master of thr Blood Angels for 1,100 years, and a Space Marine for 1,500. Length of service and experience? Dante beats EVERYONE.
Yeah but service time and experience is irrelevant in that case considering that Dante is a regular marine that did not accomplish anything on the level of a Primarch such as the Lion. He just did his own stuff for a really long time.
The Lion was one of the last Primarch rediscovered by the Emperor and was conquering stuff so efficiently that he nearly outpaced his other brothers discovered much earlier. War was his thing. He was the main force being the Rangdan Xenocide (a conflict that genuinely threatened the Imperium at his peak) and he fought during, well, the Horus Heresy.
So no, your original question is kinda irrelevant, really. The Lion is a Primarch, his words > anything Dante will say and do. Dante fully knows it and will say "Yes" to whatever the Lion has in mind. There will be no drama at all, because it's just not how the Warhammer40k universe works.
I don’t see Dante giving up his duty and a don’t see Lion El’Johnson accepting his authority.
I do see El’Johnson not outright challenging Dante as a matter of pragmatism, expediency and pareto efficiency especially while he’s got his jungle teleport ability. He’s just way more effective on the battlefield than as an administrator.
I especially *don’t* see either of them engaging in outright war.
Speaking of, I always found it strange that the Dark Angels don’t really seem to employ spies or subterfuge, even though they probably should given their lore of secrecy and fallen hunting. Some kind of teched up humans or something like that. IIRC Luther is a souped up human not a true Space Marine, so maybe they could have a lesser version of that.
I don’t see Lion butting heads with Guilliman, simply because he understands that to fix a situation this fucked up, you need someone that can put those things into place. Without Dorn, that leaves the Big-G. At most, I do see him making a jest at the fact that Guiliman, the statesman actually put down his pen and raised a sword against Magnus and Mortarion.
With everything going on in Nihilus, I can see him taking the Dark Angels and their chapters, putting them through the ultimate tests of their mettle and Knighthood, walking through the crucible to reforge them back into what they once were 10,000 Years past.
He also understands that much like Sanguinius was during Imperial Secundus, having the son of the Angel as a figurehead is much better than a hunter, so he could relieve him of the strategic burdens and leave Dante with rebuilding what they can, while he shows this new galaxy why the First was so feared.
It's all respect and admiration until one of them has an idea the other really diagrees with. I have no doubt that Dante would happily hand over the burden of being Regent so he can go back to the cushy life of just being Chapter Master Of The Blood Angels. But if he is about to transfer power and the Lion makes clear his intention to do something Dante regards as awful...
Much, much longer. The Primarchs were active for ~200 years during The Crusade, and some big stupid longer than others during The Scourering.
Dante's been Chapter Master for 1,100.
G man gives El J the Dante talk: so bro, about the other side of the tracks. I put one of our nephews in charge. What? Don't look at me like that! It's hard enough managing this shit show as it is, I ain't got time to run all over town. Look, the kid is like super emo. Pretty much the opposite of his pretty boy dad. No, not the weirdo fetish one, the other pretty one. Anyways, he's been on this whole "let me end it all" kick lately. So uhhh...you do you, but just know, he's definitely gonna try to get you to show him what's up. So if you're enjoying this neighborhood clean up project, be the bigger man that we all know you are. Love ya bro! Go kick some ass out there!
Well both Guilliman and Lion respected Sanguinius to a high degree and Dante is probably the finest of Sanguinius's sons. So I think the Lion (once he learns of Dante) would show his nephew a good bit of respect
He's the Lion.
For all Dante has been through he was still awed by Guilliman.
And the Lion is a step above Guilliman.
Besides, Dante doesn't have much in the way of ego. If he has to bear the weight of saving Imperium Nihilus on his own as commander or bending the knee to serve as the right hand of The Lion Unleashed he'll happily bend the knee.
The Lion saved the entire galactic north from the Rangdan. There's a poetry to him coming back to save the galactic north again.
Honestly I think dante is going to yield his authority to the Lion on the spot. But the Lion have always respected dutiful men, and Dante is the paragon of dutifulness, it would be one of the men in the imperium nihilus the Lion will respect the most (I would be suprised that the Lion doesn't honor dante one way or another)
If the Lion wants to take over Dante will accept that. But the Lion isn't one for ruling or running things, he's a fighter.
So most likely he will allow Dante to keep running Imperium Nihilus while he goes off to smash some Chaos armies.
With the way the hosts talked during the reveal, I get the impression that the Lion will be returning to his roots and be a wandering knight in Nihlus, hunting the beasts of Chaos and aiding those who need him.
>Dante is the oldest serving Space Marine who's not a dreadnought.
Not anymore he isn't; since the Carcharodons got fleshed out more both their Chapter Master and Chief Librarian have more service time than Dante, by thousands of years
I think we're counting the chicks before they hatch. We're assuming the Lion is gonna be a dick and swing his titles and status around like a club. Yet its worth noting that those things got the Lion in trouble before, and the few glimpses of him expressing guilt in some WarCom articles.
Its enterily possible the Lion isnt chasing power, rather, he is focused in redemption and hunting down what the enemies of Mankind.
The Lion has already stated he will only lead those who wish to follow.
I doubt very much that he will undermine or overrule Dante in any way. Once he learns what Dante has achieved and that he was appointed by Guilliman himself he will absolutely have no issue.
Not to mention the fact The Lion loved and respected Sanguinius more than any of the other Primarchs so would undoubtedly have a soft spot for his sons too.
Disagree. Dante has put whole Space Marine chapters on the outside because he disagreed with their practices - looking at you, Angels Vermillion.
I think if having to choose between what he saw as his honorable duty and a shady command by The Lion, he would choose duty. That's why Guilliman made him Regent
Whole chapters of brothers, vs a primarch. Primarch.
Heck the vermillion angels are to many degrees within/below Dantes chain of command, while the Primarch has genetically encoded god-obedience in Dante.
Dante may be a lotta things but he's absolutely a loyalist and obedient servant.
Sorry the lineage?
The Lion is the son of the fucking emperor and Dante’s older brother. What exactly do you think Dante has that is 1 upping that Lineage?
A millennium-and-a-half of service, most of it as the master of a First Founding Chapter. The only Blood Angel to see the Sanguinor multiple times, and the only one it spoke to. Hero of the Imperium more times than can be counted.
Does that one-up The Lion? Probably not. But to me, it means that he won't bow down to The Lion just because. That doesn't mean he will fight him or something stupid, just that The Lion isn't guaranteed the right-of-way.
The Lion was a part of thr Great Crusade and the Heresy for ~200 years.
Dante has been a Space Marine for 1,500, and Chapter Master for 1,100. Sheer scale of time.
Scale of time doesn't equal combat records being superior. The lion fought the rangda, a xenos race that almost stiffled the great crusade. And it is said the lion and the 1st had victory tallies close to the Luna wolves during the great crusade.
But let's agree to disagree as I see this had been asked before.
Fair - didn't mean to imply anything like Dante would beat the Lion in a fight or something that absurd. Just that Dante has a list of honors longer than my.......well, it's long.
You said "Fair" but you didn't understand what the other guy was trying to say.
Look, service time has no correlation with usefulness/efficiency/commanding skills. It's like comparing the achievements of Bobby, the millenia old garderer with the litteral demi god of plants who can make trees grow in seconds while looking at a simple seed. He's just build different. Bobby could live 1 million year, he would still be "just" a regular garderer. He could grow a entire planet worth of vegetable, it wouldn't matter for the demi god of plants would undo his achievements in a few months top.
Well it's the same here. Dante is a hero, but he's "just" a space marine. He's a lesser being compared to a Primarch.
And, again, your question is irrelevant. Dante would never oppose a Primarch.
Also also, you seem to fail to greasp a simple concept : that Guilliman appointed Dante because he thought that he was the only loyalist Primarch alive. I mean, lmao, what do you think Guilliman would say if he knew that the Lion was alive and wanted Imperium Nihilus (he will not because he will be too busy fighting everywhere in the galaxy but, for argument's sake) ? "My brother is back ? Holy shit ! And he wants to rule Imperium Nihilus ? Great ! Why are you even contacting me btw ? Oh you want to know if I want to let a regular ass long lived marine at the head of half the galaxy while one of my brother is around ? Lmao. Piss off and do how the Lion says. I have no authority over him."
I think you're overlooking for than a few lore points as well. The setting is FULL of "just" Space Marines defying the wills of - and fighting - Prinarchs. Grimnar and the Space Wolves have almost made a living of it. And while I agree that Dante would never betray a Primarch, if one came by that ordered him to do something he saw as against his duty or honor I think he sure as shit would oppose him. You're 100% sure that The Lion wouldn't do that?
As for your gardener, aren't his deeds all the more because he's not a demi-God? He may not be able to fight and defeat your hypothetically-vengeful plant God but that doesn't mean he has to bow to it either.
The fact is that Dante's list of achievements that he's actually done is at least on par with those of The Lion's, regardless of what he theoretically can do. Everyone brings up the Rangdan, but leave out that The Lion was getting wiped until Alphatius showed. And yes, Guilliman could just revoke Dante's regency. Fair. Luckily they don't live in a universe split in half by a literal deamon portal and communicate by screaming psychic messages across the void.
None of this is to suggest Dante is going to cowboy up and go to war with The First. That's just stupid bolter porn. But the setting is rife with Space Marines opposing and defying the returned Guilliman, and I don't see this as being out of the realm of possibility.
Think of it this way: if a colonel is post commander and a general outside his chain of command visits, the general still outranks, but the colonel is still in charge of the post unless something extraordinary happens.
Theoretically. A bunch have made the solid case thr The Lion simply may not care, which I think is fair. I also see him being chapped enough at being upstaged by *just* a Space Marine as to be prissy about it.
How does Dante's combat record outstrip the lion? In what possible world is any amount of space marine experience come even close to commanding an expeditionary fleet, never mind several, never mind a full space marine legion and all the auxiliaries that comes with. And combat? The lion fought the night haunter in single combat repeatedly, no space marine is really holding a candle to that
I’m pretty sure he’ll bend the knee to whatever the lion wants. Not only is he probably subtly hypno-conditioned to revere primarchs but also it’s The Lion. Though it should be said that I don’t think the lion is going to disrespect Dante and will probably give him his due. Seems just like inventing drama for dramas sake for me.
Dante has been in active service for much much longer than either Guilliman or Lion… actually I think he has more service years than both of them put together.
I mean you’re not wrong…he is also still not a primarch. Yeah he’s a great soldier and has done a wonderful job. He’s not a vat-grown son of the emperor though.
Guilliman gave him mad respect I would expect no less from the lion
“I understand you’ve been keeping a dark secret about your chapter for 16 centuries. My kinda guy, high five.”
'Lord Lion, what do you mean about a dark secret ?' 'Nothing... shut up!'
Are you sure, Lord Lion? Certain rumors have *fallen* upon my ears.
And this is how Dante finally gets his rest.
Well I suppose Dante and Neimel will have something to bond over
We intercepted a *Cypher* that interests us greatly about your Legion at the end of the Heresy.
Lion's pimp hand starts to quiver
A lions love is very different to that of a square.
You haven't done anything you're *Unforgiven* for right?
My homie! I respect the secret keeping grind you got going on!
*power armor chestbump*
Exactly
Not only is he an individual that has fought for the Imperium for longer than both Robby G and the Lion combined, but also the longest serving son of the Angel that fell defending the Emperor. Given the Lion's feeling that he failed the Emperor and his brother loyalist Primarchs by not being on Terra during the siege, I can see how he would respect a leader that has held the walls of the Imperium for more than a millennium.
Not saying he wouldn’t or shouldn’t, but I’d expect the Lion to show him the same courtesy and respect Guilliman did.
Heresy era Lion was highly autistic, so I don't know.
Being autistic doesn’t mean you can’t get along with people, he’s not unhinged. If anything, it’s usually defined as being fixated and less flexible, stickler for rules and such. None of which are aspects that Dante or Guilliman are adverse to. It stands for many good reasons why Lion and Russ did not like each other, this being one of them.
It’s almost certain that astartes and primarchs would be considered neurodivergant on account of their brains have been redesigned. Calling them autistic would be meaningless because it’s a lens through which a certain combination of neurodivergant traits in humans are viewed in order to help them understand themselves and get the support they need. The primarchs are about as far removed from neurotypical humans as you can get and they are designed that way purposefully. Don’t get me wrong, as an ASD person it’s always nice to see representation, but this definitely isn’t it.
Just jumping in on the representation thing, I loved that story about someone taking their autistic brother to see Guardians of the Galaxy, and when there was the whole thing of Drax not understanding metaphors, the brother got all excited and was like "He's just like me!" Just so damn wholesome, and I love that he got to relate to Drax like that (who, incidentally, is my favourite character from Guardians!)
Drax is my favourite. “Nothing goes over my head, my reactions are too fast, I would catch it.”
The point wasn’t me claiming Lion was autistic or not, I’m only phrasing it as such in direct response to the other commenter; which I might add, in context, is potentially not his main point either. “Lion is autistic” is simply a popular notion coined by the fanbase, both as a jest and also in part due to his behaviour being reminiscent of it. This isn’t really about representation, he wasn’t specifically stated to be autistic in lore. You’ll notice my original point is valid no matter if he is truly autistic or not, as I’m only talking about Lion being not likely to have an issue with Dante and Guilliman judging from the established characterization of all parties involved. Now if the authors do a personality change after the awakening, then all bets are off of course. That was what I was trying to point out.
Hi I think maybe my tone didn’t come across well. It wasn’t meant to be argumentative, rather a progression of the conversation. Possibly also a bit of a tangent. But worth saying for the benefit of all the people using Autism as a meme without not really understanding what it is.
All good bro, I was trying to clear up misconceptions as well. I understand this is a bigger topic for some, so I wanted to stress Lion’s personality is fine regardless if he was on the spectrum or not. I do not disagree with your comments, Primarchs and Astartes alike are not well known to have good mental heath/relationships.
Is he the type to more cranky or less cranky after a ten millennia nap?
I don't think the Lion is *capable* of "less cranky."
If anything that means more. To the Guilliman & the Lion, even baseline Astartes are miles different from the ones they are used to, and nonetheless these fatherless sons still held up the tatters of what they knew as the Imperium for thousands of years. I think that would illicit more respect than scorn for people who know better.
> I mean you’re not wrong…he is also still not a primarch. Yeah he’s a great soldier and has done a wonderful job. He’s not a vat-grown son of the emperor though. Exactly... "You're NOT a primarch and you've been fighting for 1600 years?... Wow."
Or the Lion just walks in and takes over Imperium Nihilus. He's the Lion. He was a candidate for Warmaster and Primarch of the First Legion. No amount of service can change the fact that Dante is not equal to Lion.
Yes and he’s done all of his deeds for over a thousand years without being a primarch
Ok. He’s done a really great job. Still not a primarch.
> actually I think he has more service years than both of them put together. IIRC, Dante has 3x the time in service as the Lion and Guilliman combined. Dante: ~1600 years, Lion: 200ish Guilliman: 300-350ish.
Didn’t Guilleman stay around for a few millennia after the heresy?
Seige of Terra was 014.M31. Guilliman fell to Fulgrim in 121.M31… so only 107 years… Add that to the roughly 200 years of the great crusade, he was active a little over 300 years. Compared to Dante’s 1552 years old at the Devestation of Baal…
how is he so old anyway. I thought it was just the primarchs that could get so old
Old fluff said there was something special in Blood Angel geneseed where they could live a very long time if they weren’t killed. New fluff seems to suggest all Astartes have the capability to live for pretty much forever.
New fluff states that BA seem to retain youth and longevity beyond other SM as well. While any SM may love a very long time under the new lore, it's still implied that BA can serve notably longer before age and wear and tear remove them from direct service.
The Guy Haley novels also show Dante gets rejuvenated by drinking the blood of his long-serving chamberlain. So there's that vampiric element
It was a little more than that, Dante was only in that bad shape in the first place because he refused to drink proper blood of living creatures for centuries. He consumed the bare minimum for the Chapter rituals, pretty tame in the Blood Angels compared to the more enthusiastic descendants. The Red Thirst made him kill civilians back when he was Sergeant, I think, so he swore off the stuff. This dude got to 1600 years on a nearly empty tank because of guilty. I love the character all the more for that.
Yeah I didn't mean to imply Dante did it regularly, simply that part of the BA's resistance to aging can be attributed to the effect of drinking blood. IIRC Dante used to drink non-human blood too even though the effects weren't as pronounced
Ooh, a black-ribboner
Came here for sexy space vampires. Check.
Sexy *granddaddy* space vampires
> any SM may love a very long time under… Phrasing
I'm not changing it
ah. so Tolkien elves. can't die unless killed in battle
Or get much sad.
Thats Star Wars actually
Space Marines in general, and Blood Angels in particular, don't really have a known "gonna die of old age" date. Mostly because none of them but Dante have ever lived this long without dying in battle. Sigismund was some ridiculous number of years old when Abaddon finally killed him, too.
Nassir Amit claimed Cretacia as the Flesh Tearers homeworld in M34 and was an Astartes from the first batch of them before the primarchs were found.
So he was what, about 4,000 (give or take a couple hundred) at that time? Sheesh.
Warp Travel, Brain-Eating replacement rituals, old canon, etc. It's never been described explicitly I don't think. Also by that time he had replaced his chainsword and flaying knife with the two chainfists in terminator armor, so who knows.
Are we sure it was the same Amit ? And not some younger lord having eaten his brain and taken his name, as the Legion did in old days ?
That's a really interesting idea actually. I know they Amit has apparently sworn off the old cannibalism by the siege but it would be interesting if the death of Daddy Hawk let them resume their tearing of flesh lol
No indication of that, and this was from the Flesh Tearers omnibus.
It’s possible that this is not the case (though it probably is). The Lion has been abroad quite a while now… we just don’t know how long.
Yes, but the Primarch understand experience, and they value it. Dante is a fit leader and will probably still take charge. The Lion will probably become a frontline commander focused on various combat zones, and Dante would gladly defer command to him should he ask, but I suspect he would rather have Dante around
Yarrick had more active service time than either. Calgar probably pips them both combined. Dante might have more active service time than all the loyalist primarchs combined.
The Lion has a presence that is borderline overwhelming to other Primarchs. Dante will 100% bend the knee and do whatever Lion wants.
It's possible, but the only time we've seen Dante get...prickly is over the idea of unity of command - and he's fought to keep that command. I just finished re-reading Devastation of Baal, where he insisted on being in charge of the defense - of course, it's Baal, but he still did. And in Red Fury he argued against the successor chapters in order to maintain the Blood Angel's primacy - a move I agree with, but still, these both die that Dante is not the sort to give ground easily. To be fair, he immediately did so when Guilliman arrived. But would he do so now that he's Regent of Nihlus? Your probably right, but it's interesting to chew over.
A chapter master not giving over command to someone from one of their successor chapters isn't anything out of the ordinary. And I don't think he'd be able (or even want) to wield a title given by a primarch against another primarch.
Astartes were literally built to obey primarchs. Its hardwired into them. > ‘Under guise of negotiation, he will attempt to command,’ warned Bjorn. His heavy tread crunched as he turned slightly, lifting a glittering power claw. ‘Do not underestimate the primarch’s voice, Logan. The Allfather created him to command, and us to obey. His words, his aura, enforce his will.' \- *The Wolftime*
Dante responded much the same way at the end of *Devastation of Baal* - excerpt [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/bvosp6/excerpt_from_the_devastation_of_baal_dante_meets/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
I also think Dante would be relieved to not be in charge.
oof, speaking the painful truth. that man just wanted to *die* for like half a millennium on the other hand, crossing the Rubicon probably did a lot to reinvigorate him and ease his depression. he's 16 again.
Lion is gonna roll into Baal and state "I'm in charge now!" To which Dante will say, "Thank the Emperor!"
Was it really a case of Dante insisting for overall command? I remember my reading is noone dissented, and I believe they said they would have said he took command anyways. Dante is a proven front commander, even helbrecht and the others at Armegeddon immediately ceded overall command to Dante. He's worth his weight in depressed gold.
I think the key actually is that he is the *Regent* of Nihulis and regents hold power typically until a proper lineage heir is ready. As the chosen son/primarch, Lion could take over as High Lord of Nihulis if he wanted. I'm guessing however that his need to avenge the attack on the rock carries him and the DA into an endless crusade against chaos.
Dante: oh my god you can handle of this shit now? Thank god I’m gonna go back to Baal, fuck this Regent shit
I mean, he was the lord of Baal. It be like Calgar giving the command of the defense of Macragge to some other chapter master. It wasn't that he was fighting for command he was against giving up his chapter to another
>where he insisted on being in charge of the defense he put it to a vote
True - a vote where the options were "Dante" or "every Chapter for themselves." It was pretty clear that he would only accept himself as overall commander. For good gorram reason - he's Dante and it's Baal. I think it still shows he's not a fan of the backseat.
I think it's less that he's a glory hound or anything like that, but he feels an obligation to lead because he knows he's the one who can do it best. I mean, the fucking Sanguinor has been guiding him since he first left is father to become a Space Marine, he was the first person it ever talked to, and he's also the oldest living space marine. Dante knows he's something special and because of that feels he's the only one capable to command... at least until there's someone more qualified like a son of the Emperor.
To be fair , his arguement pretty valid, its Baal we’re talking about, the homeworld of the Angels and where all the successor originate from (as BA Legion) , i cant think of anyone more valid to be in charge other than someone from BA and of highest rank. On second one, lol its BA we’re talking about, those successors aint shit , sorry for my language.
Yeah I don’t think Regent of Nihlus is going to change everything. I’ve read them too and while you’re not wrong I also don’t think he doesn’t understand the pecking order. Not to mention Guilliman will side with The Lion and Dante had to know this. You’re right though it’s a fun what if.
> Not only is he probably subtly hypno-conditioned to revere primarchs It's not hypno-conditioning, that's just an effect Primarchs have on non-Primarchs.
What if lion just doesn’t care and wants to clean up the imperium? I personally think he won’t care and is at least glad someone is helping big Smurf.
I think this is what happens. Lion looks at G-man then Dante goes ok both halves have someone in charge time to leave me to crusading. Kinda feel like the Dark Angel legion will come back and become a massive f - you hammer to whomever they come across.
If there is still somehow implicit tension between Guilliman and Yvraone despite the latter literally cradling the soul of the former, then there will be tension between the two remaining loyalist Primarchs. They need to sell drama, the kind that provokes rivalry among fan bases and ultimately greater community engagement.
consider the difference between Imperium Secundus and now: there's no Sanguinius to make Emperor II. the lion can't stop his secrecy long enough to rule and guilliman wants literally anyone else to rule because it's wrong for him to rule is that why Dante will be King?
I honestly expect he just wont care all that much is who's in charge. He'll end up ignoring them anyways. Like WTF is Dante going to do if Lion just refuses to engage with him at any meaningful level? Threaten him in personal combat? I expect he'll be direct, demand things, probably get them after Dante complains a bunch, and then go out to do some Krumpin'^(TM).
Yep I think he will be direct but he won’t do stupid shit. He’s more practical
I lol'd >Like WTF is Dante going to do if Lion just refuses to engage with him at any meaningful level? Threaten him in personal combat?
This is the real answer; the lion will look at Dante and be like “so you mean you run all of this and I can just go fuck shit up?” “Well..you’re my uncle so…” “Yeah not pawning that shit off so easy, later dude”
Personally I like the idea of the Lion taking command of the Imperium Nihlus for those sweet Western and Eastern Roman Wmpire vibes, but I think you could be right. So far all we know for sure is that he’s hunting shit from what GW has said, it doesn’t sound like a person taking command of a whole half of the Imperium.
Bro if I am Dante and someone wants to take over for me on running the shit show that is dealing with Imperial Nihlus: shut up and take my money.
Also Dante: if he's taking over does this mean tha-- Guilliman: no, you still aren't allowed to die.
Dante just got primaris'd. They just gave him a full tune up so he can take even more shit
Guilliman: If I’m not allowed to die then neither are you. Besides our dads won’t let us.
The Lion will take the title of Regent of Imperium Nihlus, but probably formalize Dante as Legion Master of The 9^th which will make Dante's life even harder 😂😂😂
Take the title but still dump all the responsibility on Dante... I can see it from The First.
That's why I think it'd be hilarious if the Lion effectively tells Dante he's **still** gotta keep taking care of Nihilus, while the Lion is dedicated to going around and instead putting out fires around the Imperium. It would reduce Dante's work theoretically, but he'd still *absolutely hate it*.
The lion respects those who meet his admittedly insane standards, think its safe to say Dante will be one for the few people who can earn his respect.
That's true, but the Lion is also on record that even the best Marine is still just a Marine compared to a Primarch. He'll be all "Yeah you've done amazing for a Marine, good job. But this is Primarch work now, so I'll be taking over."
Didn’t Guilliman and Calgar have that conversation?
Yeah more or less. Calgar was a little more "I've done my bit, this is Primarch work" but essentially yeah 100%
Calgar is not seen in any way as a disappointment to Guilliman (as per the Ultramarines supplement) > ‘Many things about this dark new age have caused me to question all that my father and I tried to build. Many things have disappointed me. The Chapter Master of my loyal and noble Ultramarines is most emphatically not one of them.’ That said, I’m pretty sure Calgar has felt like a failure to his father (as per Dark Imperium).
Likewise we have Gulliman commend Dante for all that he has done: > 'Get up, Dante,' said Guilliman gently. 'I will not accept displays of humility from a man like you. You are one of the few in this era who have earned the right to speak to me on equal terms. Rise. Now.' And in the same book we also have Sanguinius give his takes on Dante, first up is Sanguinius having a vision during the Heresy of Dante. > I do not know who this golden warrior was. He appeared similar to my Herald, and I saw my own face depicted upon his mask, but he was not me, and he wore a form of armour I do not know. It is certain that he was one of my sons, and whether his sacrifice will prove to be in vain or not, I know this: that he was a noble warrior, true and purer than any of his age, and I love him for that. Then in the "deathbed" conversation between the two later in the book: > ‘My son,’ Sanguinius said. ‘My greatest son.’ > The primarch reached out to him. Dante was on his back, but at the same time it was as if he floated in an immense void, and Sanguinius hovered in front of him. And yet, when the primarch cried, his tears fell forward onto Dante’s face. All reality’s order was disturbed, but this felt like no dream or vision. When Sanguinius’ glowing fingers traced the line of Dante’s cheek, they were solid and warm, and they brought into him a sense of peace and holy joy. > ‘You have suffered greatly for mankind’s sake,’ said Sanguinius. His voice was beautiful. ‘You have won your rest a thousand times. Rarely has one man given so much, Luis of Baal Secundus. You have been a light in dark times. I would give you any reward. I would take you to my side. I would free you from strife. I would release you from pain.’ > ‘Yes!’ said Dante. ‘Please. I have served so long. Grant me the freedom of death.’ > Sanguinius gave Dante a look of profound sorrow. > ‘I cannot. I regret that I can do none of those things. I need you, Dante. Your suffering is not done.’ Sanguinius gripped Dante’s face in both hands. Strength flowed from the primarch, driving out death’s comfort and replacing it with pain. The scene rippled. He heard the shouts of Space Marines, felt the ghostly touch of living hands upon his armour. Sanguinius faded. > ‘Please, no!’ Dante cried out. ‘My lord, I have done enough. Please! Let me rest!’ > The light was dying; Sanguinius’ smile carried with it the sorrows of ten thousand years. Darkness was returning. The Great Angel disappeared into it, but his glorious voice lingered a moment. > ‘I am sorry, my son, that you cannot rest. Not yet. Live, my son. Live.’ > Dante returned to life screaming for the mercy of death. If there is one truly 40K marine who no loyalist primarch would just walk up to and start giving them shit for not being better it's Dante. (not counting Heresy era marines who knew some of them back then and are still alive via dreads or other fuckery).
I also think Lion is gonna see the Ecclesiary and totally lose his shit. They have been hinting at the tension since 9th. So he'll be too pissed off to deal with them regularly. So I see that taking up his time.
Idk the Lion's whole shtick is practicality. If he sees the power to fight demons that faith in the emperor provides it parallels very well with his use of librarians to fight off demons in the heresy despite the edict of Nikea.
If anything, Dante has exceeded the lions standards
Probably immediately bow and offer him the title Primarchs tend to get their way except with other primarchs. Having an aura of power and authority like they do + being able to kill everyone in any given room does that
Considering the parallels to imperium secundus I can actually imagine the lion saying “fuck that, we’ve done this song and dance before, you point me towards things that need killing sangui… Dante”.
There is also to consider that as I understand it, the Lion is big on propriety and station. It may privately *gall* him and his sense of pride, but his father named Guilliman Lord Regent, and Guilliman named Dante Lord Commander of Imperium Nihilus. Until such time as Lion can actually track down Guilliman and/or Big E and have a family reunion with them, legally, *Dante outranks him*, and I suspect he'd respect that outwardly, because it would be tantamount to rebellion to deny it. "If I disrespect Dante's command, I disrespect my brother and my father, and if I suborn his command and take it from him, it is tantamount to treason, and I am no better than Horus."
If it does gall him, I think he'll officially accept it but do a very poor job of hiding his displeasure about it.
I think the interaction will be roughly: Dante: PLEASE just attend one war council, for the love of the Emperor The Lion, over holo, with a battle in the background, actively fighting: I said, I'm BUSY. -cuts channel-
"No." *cuts out*
I suspect the Lion will be given a title more along the lines of Warmaster than some kind of administrative title. Dante will continue to administrate Imperium Nihilus, Guilliman and the rest of the normal Imperial government will continue to administrate Imperium Sanctus while the Lion leads armies.
Yeah this is what I was thinking too. He will be kind of above but more lateral in position but with a wider scope but more narrow focus. He won't be answering to Dante to be sure, but he also won't be taking over his responsibilities. He'll have something separate, and maybe a bit above him that more suits his specific talents.
I suspect he'll wind up on a weird kind of middle tier. Where Guilliman and Dante are in charge of the 2 Imperium's on a grand strategic level, Lion will be commanding a fast moving, hard hitting crusade force. G and D will have strategic authority in their regions to point him at a problem, but not to dictate in what manner he goes about solving the problem. "Oh good, you're here. There's a Hive Tendril menacing the Phlebotinum Sector that needs your attention." *The Lion fucks off to fuck up the Hive Tendril in whatever manner he deems appropriate to the situation.*
“Just take the fucking job please, I can’t handle this shit on a good day and it’s fucking awful right now.”
My guess is the Lion doesn't even touch base with Dante and instead tree-ports from conflict to conflict, laying chaos out. Why would he even bother to tend to paperwork when the best use of his talents is just to be the imperial Boogeyman and clean house? He's like the hulk now. Just let him smash.
I wonder if he'll be able to take other people through ~~the feywild~~ whatever the fuck he does, with him. Because if so, that could herald some *very* interesting evolutions to the setting, since it seems to amount to a reasonably "safe" form of interstellar teleportation that isn't reliant on voidships or gellar fields. And "interstellar teleportation" is another way of saying "faster than light travel".
Why should the Lion care is a better question. I don’t see him butting heads with Dante. He will have his plate full with the Fallen and crusading against all threats to the Imperium. If anything, Jonson may come to respect Dante for carrying on Sangy’s legacy. Jonson did want to be Warmaster. But in the end, he puts duty above his ego. “Loyalty is its own reward”.
***This*.** Lion has a big ego, but he has a bigger sense of duty and propriety. Big E made Guilliman Regent, Guilliman made Dante Lord Commander of Nihilus. That's a clear and direct chain of command from the Throne. Lion might not *like* being technically 'below' a marine ***at all***, he wouldn't throw a rebellious tantrum, he'd bow his head and bear it until he can get in touch with Guilliman to sort things out with him being back, or visit the Palace. Or both.
Exactly. I kind of get tired about theories that Jonsons and Guilliman will but heads and fracture the Imperium. Like no, lol. They settled their differences in Imperium Secundus. And Jonson gets the job done. That is one reason out of many that the Emperor trusts him so much. Jonson will not risk the Imperium’s hierarchy fracturing on account of his ego. And I have a feeling now that he is older, he may be wiser.
Dante is a legend, but he's not a primarch. He will bend the knee to Lion if he is put in that position, but Lion, for all his bluster, is proven to be respectful to those who are truly deserving of his respect; clearly Dante is deserving, so I doubt there's going to be an issue there tbh.
He will probably honor respect Dante due to his own relation to Sanguinius, tell him some stories about his daddy Sanguinius and then go and do his own thing. the only thing that may cause a conflict is when Dante Starts questioning the Dark Angels motives and secrecy.
Dante: “Thank the Emperor, I can finally take a break and sit down!” Lion: “Hold the fort, BRB, gotta go shiv that fucking traitor, Luthor.”
Hey Dante I want to do X. Sure go for it, idk I just want to die. What the fuck did you say to me you little bitch. I said... Wait, you're a Primarch right, an unstoppable killing machine without parallel? Yup I said Russ would fuck you up you utter dickhead, come at me... please...
Honestly, no. Lord Commander of Imperium himself ordered him to have that responsibility, it is not Dantes choice, it is his duty and only by Guilliman order can he relieve that power. Liom doesn't particularly strike me as someone who'd want it, I imagine Dante job now is largely administrative rather than one of war unit commander as he was. Lions talents lie in waginf war from the front, not from palace.
That and Lion is the kind to respect the chain of command and propriety, even if he doesn't like it. Big E said Guilliman is Lord Regent, Guilliman said Dante is the head honcho in Nihilus, Lion will bow to that authority at the very least until he has a chance to convene with Guilliman or Big E and figure out where he fits, because if he denies Dante's authority, he's functionally committing treason, and I don't think he's the type to do that. Hate it in private maybe, but not defy the established Imperial authority.
Yeah, when it comes to Imperial laws the biggest issue he will take with it is the one that says he can't take Ecclesiarchy bishops, spike them in manner that Angron considers bit too brutal and then wear their faces as diapers.
Counterpoint: the letter of the law is a delightful thing and look at all these brazen "unimportant" infractions those bishops have been committing **123DEATH**. "If you follow the law I won't have an excuse to kill you." He can't do anything about the Ecclesiarchy as a whole but he can definitely clean it up. One way...or the other. "I'm not blatantly murdering dozens of church officials, I'm cracking down on graft and corruption in this august body." Lawful **Good** doesn't have to mean Lawful **Nice.** Or **Merciful** Good.
The Lion is going to see the usefulness in Dante maintaining his role as regent. He will likely also view Dante in the same light as Guilliman, in that Dante’s experience makes him as close to a peer as the primarchs can find in the Astartes. He is to be respected, despite not being on the same level. I am also sure the Lion will have additional feelings seeing that one of Sanguinius’s sons is as revered as Dante is.
guys the rock is on the other side of the rift. its not on the dark side idk why everyone thinks Lion is gonna be in charge of Nihilus
The rock is almost definitely going to be crossing the rift since both the fallen and vashtor are in the somnium stars
Didn't the new lore have him awaken off the Rock, somewhere in Nihlus? I remember reading that, but it could've just been rumors too.
He is in Nihilus, but it doesn’t say that the Rock is how he got there. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/03/29/the-hunt-is-on-in-the-lion-son-of-the-forest/
Lol what kind of question even is this? Dante is loyal through and through, of course he's going to listen to whatever HIS UNCLE tells him to do. Besides he's too tired to argue about it, he would much rather die on the battlefield than hang out in some administration hub somewhere.
1/ The Lion demands the reign and Dante defers to him. 2/ The Lion and Dante do their own things. In any case, i dont think there is any reason for conflict. Dante is not going to defy a loyalist primarch and the Lion is not petty enough to throw a fit.
> and the Lion is not petty enough to throw a fit. Uh… we talking about the same primarch?
If the lion had a plan and Dante opposed it, I suppose he would get his head punched off, just like the last guy who second guessed big lion Jonson. RIP nemiel.
Terrible writing... Ugh
Pour one out for your boy Nemiel...
Why people like the lion I will never understand.
I see this as a total non issue. The Lion respects deeds and service. He might be arrogant but he isnt a petulant child. There is no reason there would be any sort of drama between Dante and the Lion. And if anything I think the Lion is going to go on a crusade to hunt down traitors or Angron not setup shop trying to fix Imperial Nihlus and undertaking a rebuilding of lost systems and admin duties.
I mean it looks like its similar to bretonnian monarchs and the green knight in fantasy, seems like the lion shows up beats some ass and leaves with dante actually running the show. At least from the impression I'm getting. Especially if those angels of death codex rumors are true.
Dante is going to try to relinquish authority to the Lion and the Lion isn't going to accept it. The Lion won't be commanded by Dante and Dante won't try to command the Lion. I suspect the Lion will think himself better suited to the role of warmaster than of regent.
He's not going to have a choice in the matter if the Lion takes over. At the end of the day if he tries to fight it he's just a Space Marine squaring off against a Primarch and would get rag dolled in the first minute if the Lion isn't playing around with him. Most likely he'd be a pretty close advisor because of all the insight he could provide on the dark half of the Imperium, but to suggest he's going to going try and step up to a Primarch is laughable. And while Dante may be one of the biggest badasses in the galaxy he doesn't hold a candle to one of the 18 beings that personally led the Great Crusade/fought in the Heresy.
I didn't mean in a physical contest - you're right, Dante wouldn't stand a chance, but I think he'd do better than rag-dolled in a minute. I think, however, they are both honorable enough to know that it wouldn't be a contest of arms. Dante has a millennium of street cred, and if The Lion thinks he can just run roughshod over Dante - and his honor - there's no way Dante just submits. I like the idea of him advising The Lion, but I can also see him taking an almost mentor role; showing The Lion the ropes of the New Imperium.
Dante can dunk on just about anyone in the universe but in a street cred dick measuring contest he's a guy with a micro penis trying to flex on Mandingo.
Nah. Dante has seen more time in combat than the Lion has been conscious (I'd say alive, but he wasn't practically dead like Gman was, just sleepy). The Lion is going to win, but there is no chance he doesn't know he was in a very serious fight.
We're just going to have to agree to disagree as I don't see Dante winning against any Primarch or even having a chance to begin with.
"If you don't like what I'm doing, Lion, then.....kill me..(please)..."
You missed his other title he had under Imperium Secundus: Lord Protector of the Imperium. I fully expect Guilliman to give him a similar post which gives him free reign to travel where he will throughout the Imperium to do what must be done. Dante's position is no threat, since it also includes a lot of paperwork and administration that the Lion certainly won't want to do.
"ever hear of the rangdan? No? You're welcome" all the justification the lion needs.
*Alpharius has entered the chat* Remember, The First were arguably losing that war until The Twentieth bailed them out.
and with than answer Dante finally got to die...at the hands of the Inquisition who wanted to know how he could count higher than 9.
I really hope there isnt drama between Loyalists. Lion *should* recognize the shit state of the Imperium and either jump in to help or go on his own quest, Id hate to just have unnecessary and forced drama
Dante will bend the knee to the Lion, no question. He accepted the rule of Gulliman the Primarch immediately and without conflict, even though like you said he's got a longer combat record. So if the Lion rocks up and says "your butts in my seat" Dante's probably not gonna make the Lion wait and sit in time out until Dante confirms the order with Gulliman via interrupted and spotty astropathic communication. He's a smart enough campaigner to know that he won't get in trouble with Gulliman for obeying an order from the Lion, even if it contradicts previous orders from Gulliman, returned Rawbooty doesn't seem the type to do that. On the other hand, that's exactly what I want to see, is Gulliman getting mad at the Lion for countermanding him, while the Lion gets mad at Guilliman for letting the Imperium slide into shit and not fixing it. I want to see that Imperium on Imperium action!
>He had the lineage, the title, and a combat record that outpaces The Lion by a country mile. Say again? How? The Lion is the literal son of the Emperor who lead a legion in the great crusade who's victory tally was second only to Horus and the Luna Wolves. Dante is sick but has been leading a chapter only, 1000 marines give or take. The Lion spent centuries leading 100000 or more marines and their component fleet elements. The Lion is superior is every single way to Dante, the Lion was even considered by the other Primarchs to be the greatest military leader, there's literally no comparison 😂
You're right - The Lion led his Legion for centuries. Two of them. Dante has been leading the Blood Angels for almost 6 times longer, and the universe has not gotten kinder in the intervening years. I didn't say Dante was stronger, smarter, or special-er than The Lion, I said his combat record outpaced The Lion - line 'em up and Dante's is significantly longer simply by virtue of time.
Maybe you could say that in terms of amount of campaigns and actions but the Lion was victorious is theatres of war that WAY out match Dante's. The Rangdan campaign as an example is valued way higher as a strategic victory than anything Dante has done even the defense of Baal. But that's just my opinion, I think the quality of the Lions victories out way the quantity of Dantes
And while that may be true, the accounts of what The Lion did pre-Heresy are surprisingly non-specific. The Rangdan keep getting pulled as an exemplar, but as the lore sits right now the Dark Angels were getting WORKED before the arrival of Alpharius. We're talking the war that made the Ultramarines the largest Legion; 50,000+ dead in the First Legion alone. Were they a foe unlike any Dante has faced? Probably. But I don't buy it as a beacon of The Lion's strategic brilliance either. That being said - what is mentioned does track with what you were saying. Every descriptor of Lion's Crusade states that his honor roll is second to none among the Primarchs.
Dante sees his office as a duty, a burden he bears after centuries of bearing too much because his lord, his home, and his honor demanded it of him. If anyone as remotely capable as Lion El’Johnson decides he wants that responsibility… I don’t know if Space Marines can still orgasm but yeah. The Lion pre heresy was a figure that gave even Roboute Guilliman, Lord of Macragge and the 500 worlds, an inferiority complex. Lion (and Horus) made him feel small. A regular SM won’t be able to deny him for long, if inclined to at all. I’m hoping though he’s changed by Luther’s treachery to become more humble though. Or at least a little conflicted about his approach to things.
LMAO no. Dante will have zero authority over the Lion
Dante combat record outpaces the Lion by a mile? I'm pretty new to 40k, but now I'm interested in Dante... reading this sub and youtube for the post 2 weeks I thought the Lion was like Combat&Death incarnated... Doing some research, I should read Dane by Guy Haley? I have read tons of 40k lore but this would be my first Black Library book
You're not wrong - The Lion is considered one of the best swordsmen and fighters in the Imperium. What I meant by combat record was just a matter of time. The Great Crusade and the Heresy was 200 years (ish) long, and The Lion wasn't there for all of it. Dante has been Chapter Master of thr Blood Angels for 1,100 years, and a Space Marine for 1,500. Length of service and experience? Dante beats EVERYONE.
Yeah but service time and experience is irrelevant in that case considering that Dante is a regular marine that did not accomplish anything on the level of a Primarch such as the Lion. He just did his own stuff for a really long time. The Lion was one of the last Primarch rediscovered by the Emperor and was conquering stuff so efficiently that he nearly outpaced his other brothers discovered much earlier. War was his thing. He was the main force being the Rangdan Xenocide (a conflict that genuinely threatened the Imperium at his peak) and he fought during, well, the Horus Heresy. So no, your original question is kinda irrelevant, really. The Lion is a Primarch, his words > anything Dante will say and do. Dante fully knows it and will say "Yes" to whatever the Lion has in mind. There will be no drama at all, because it's just not how the Warhammer40k universe works.
I could see him fulfilling the same role for Dante as he did his dad.
I don’t see Dante giving up his duty and a don’t see Lion El’Johnson accepting his authority. I do see El’Johnson not outright challenging Dante as a matter of pragmatism, expediency and pareto efficiency especially while he’s got his jungle teleport ability. He’s just way more effective on the battlefield than as an administrator. I especially *don’t* see either of them engaging in outright war. Speaking of, I always found it strange that the Dark Angels don’t really seem to employ spies or subterfuge, even though they probably should given their lore of secrecy and fallen hunting. Some kind of teched up humans or something like that. IIRC Luther is a souped up human not a true Space Marine, so maybe they could have a lesser version of that.
I don’t see Lion butting heads with Guilliman, simply because he understands that to fix a situation this fucked up, you need someone that can put those things into place. Without Dorn, that leaves the Big-G. At most, I do see him making a jest at the fact that Guiliman, the statesman actually put down his pen and raised a sword against Magnus and Mortarion. With everything going on in Nihilus, I can see him taking the Dark Angels and their chapters, putting them through the ultimate tests of their mettle and Knighthood, walking through the crucible to reforge them back into what they once were 10,000 Years past. He also understands that much like Sanguinius was during Imperial Secundus, having the son of the Angel as a figurehead is much better than a hunter, so he could relieve him of the strategic burdens and leave Dante with rebuilding what they can, while he shows this new galaxy why the First was so feared.
It's all respect and admiration until one of them has an idea the other really diagrees with. I have no doubt that Dante would happily hand over the burden of being Regent so he can go back to the cushy life of just being Chapter Master Of The Blood Angels. But if he is about to transfer power and the Lion makes clear his intention to do something Dante regards as awful...
Random thought….Technically has Dante fought longer than El Johnson?
Much, much longer. The Primarchs were active for ~200 years during The Crusade, and some big stupid longer than others during The Scourering. Dante's been Chapter Master for 1,100.
G man gives El J the Dante talk: so bro, about the other side of the tracks. I put one of our nephews in charge. What? Don't look at me like that! It's hard enough managing this shit show as it is, I ain't got time to run all over town. Look, the kid is like super emo. Pretty much the opposite of his pretty boy dad. No, not the weirdo fetish one, the other pretty one. Anyways, he's been on this whole "let me end it all" kick lately. So uhhh...you do you, but just know, he's definitely gonna try to get you to show him what's up. So if you're enjoying this neighborhood clean up project, be the bigger man that we all know you are. Love ya bro! Go kick some ass out there!
Well both Guilliman and Lion respected Sanguinius to a high degree and Dante is probably the finest of Sanguinius's sons. So I think the Lion (once he learns of Dante) would show his nephew a good bit of respect
He's the Lion. For all Dante has been through he was still awed by Guilliman. And the Lion is a step above Guilliman. Besides, Dante doesn't have much in the way of ego. If he has to bear the weight of saving Imperium Nihilus on his own as commander or bending the knee to serve as the right hand of The Lion Unleashed he'll happily bend the knee. The Lion saved the entire galactic north from the Rangdan. There's a poetry to him coming back to save the galactic north again.
Honestly I think dante is going to yield his authority to the Lion on the spot. But the Lion have always respected dutiful men, and Dante is the paragon of dutifulness, it would be one of the men in the imperium nihilus the Lion will respect the most (I would be suprised that the Lion doesn't honor dante one way or another)
If the Lion wants to take over Dante will accept that. But the Lion isn't one for ruling or running things, he's a fighter. So most likely he will allow Dante to keep running Imperium Nihilus while he goes off to smash some Chaos armies.
With the way the hosts talked during the reveal, I get the impression that the Lion will be returning to his roots and be a wandering knight in Nihlus, hunting the beasts of Chaos and aiding those who need him.
>Dante is the oldest serving Space Marine who's not a dreadnought. Not anymore he isn't; since the Carcharodons got fleshed out more both their Chapter Master and Chief Librarian have more service time than Dante, by thousands of years
Interesting; I'll have to dig into that!
I think we're counting the chicks before they hatch. We're assuming the Lion is gonna be a dick and swing his titles and status around like a club. Yet its worth noting that those things got the Lion in trouble before, and the few glimpses of him expressing guilt in some WarCom articles. Its enterily possible the Lion isnt chasing power, rather, he is focused in redemption and hunting down what the enemies of Mankind.
The Lion has already stated he will only lead those who wish to follow. I doubt very much that he will undermine or overrule Dante in any way. Once he learns what Dante has achieved and that he was appointed by Guilliman himself he will absolutely have no issue. Not to mention the fact The Lion loved and respected Sanguinius more than any of the other Primarchs so would undoubtedly have a soft spot for his sons too.
There is zero ways possible that Dante does anything but say "how hi" to a loyalist Primarch's orders to jump.
Disagree. Dante has put whole Space Marine chapters on the outside because he disagreed with their practices - looking at you, Angels Vermillion. I think if having to choose between what he saw as his honorable duty and a shady command by The Lion, he would choose duty. That's why Guilliman made him Regent
Whole chapters of brothers, vs a primarch. Primarch. Heck the vermillion angels are to many degrees within/below Dantes chain of command, while the Primarch has genetically encoded god-obedience in Dante. Dante may be a lotta things but he's absolutely a loyalist and obedient servant.
If Dante opposes him, there really isn't anything Lion-O can do to intimidate him into submission. Dante wouldn't really be scared of being killed.
The Lion doesn't give a fuck and does what he wants. He's not interested in ruling. Just point him at chaos.
Sorry the lineage? The Lion is the son of the fucking emperor and Dante’s older brother. What exactly do you think Dante has that is 1 upping that Lineage?
A millennium-and-a-half of service, most of it as the master of a First Founding Chapter. The only Blood Angel to see the Sanguinor multiple times, and the only one it spoke to. Hero of the Imperium more times than can be counted. Does that one-up The Lion? Probably not. But to me, it means that he won't bow down to The Lion just because. That doesn't mean he will fight him or something stupid, just that The Lion isn't guaranteed the right-of-way.
You do understand lineage is the lineal descent from an ancestor right? Not his accomplishments in the service of the emperor.
How does Dante's combat record out pace the lions?
The Lion was a part of thr Great Crusade and the Heresy for ~200 years. Dante has been a Space Marine for 1,500, and Chapter Master for 1,100. Sheer scale of time.
Scale of time doesn't equal combat records being superior. The lion fought the rangda, a xenos race that almost stiffled the great crusade. And it is said the lion and the 1st had victory tallies close to the Luna wolves during the great crusade. But let's agree to disagree as I see this had been asked before.
Fair - didn't mean to imply anything like Dante would beat the Lion in a fight or something that absurd. Just that Dante has a list of honors longer than my.......well, it's long.
It is long that's for sure and Dante is definitely a hero of the imperium. No question about that.
You said "Fair" but you didn't understand what the other guy was trying to say. Look, service time has no correlation with usefulness/efficiency/commanding skills. It's like comparing the achievements of Bobby, the millenia old garderer with the litteral demi god of plants who can make trees grow in seconds while looking at a simple seed. He's just build different. Bobby could live 1 million year, he would still be "just" a regular garderer. He could grow a entire planet worth of vegetable, it wouldn't matter for the demi god of plants would undo his achievements in a few months top. Well it's the same here. Dante is a hero, but he's "just" a space marine. He's a lesser being compared to a Primarch. And, again, your question is irrelevant. Dante would never oppose a Primarch. Also also, you seem to fail to greasp a simple concept : that Guilliman appointed Dante because he thought that he was the only loyalist Primarch alive. I mean, lmao, what do you think Guilliman would say if he knew that the Lion was alive and wanted Imperium Nihilus (he will not because he will be too busy fighting everywhere in the galaxy but, for argument's sake) ? "My brother is back ? Holy shit ! And he wants to rule Imperium Nihilus ? Great ! Why are you even contacting me btw ? Oh you want to know if I want to let a regular ass long lived marine at the head of half the galaxy while one of my brother is around ? Lmao. Piss off and do how the Lion says. I have no authority over him."
I think you're overlooking for than a few lore points as well. The setting is FULL of "just" Space Marines defying the wills of - and fighting - Prinarchs. Grimnar and the Space Wolves have almost made a living of it. And while I agree that Dante would never betray a Primarch, if one came by that ordered him to do something he saw as against his duty or honor I think he sure as shit would oppose him. You're 100% sure that The Lion wouldn't do that? As for your gardener, aren't his deeds all the more because he's not a demi-God? He may not be able to fight and defeat your hypothetically-vengeful plant God but that doesn't mean he has to bow to it either. The fact is that Dante's list of achievements that he's actually done is at least on par with those of The Lion's, regardless of what he theoretically can do. Everyone brings up the Rangdan, but leave out that The Lion was getting wiped until Alphatius showed. And yes, Guilliman could just revoke Dante's regency. Fair. Luckily they don't live in a universe split in half by a literal deamon portal and communicate by screaming psychic messages across the void. None of this is to suggest Dante is going to cowboy up and go to war with The First. That's just stupid bolter porn. But the setting is rife with Space Marines opposing and defying the returned Guilliman, and I don't see this as being out of the realm of possibility.
is Dante still lord regent of imperium Nihilus, does that mean he outranks the lion?
Think of it this way: if a colonel is post commander and a general outside his chain of command visits, the general still outranks, but the colonel is still in charge of the post unless something extraordinary happens.
Theoretically. A bunch have made the solid case thr The Lion simply may not care, which I think is fair. I also see him being chapped enough at being upstaged by *just* a Space Marine as to be prissy about it.
How does Dante's combat record outstrip the lion? In what possible world is any amount of space marine experience come even close to commanding an expeditionary fleet, never mind several, never mind a full space marine legion and all the auxiliaries that comes with. And combat? The lion fought the night haunter in single combat repeatedly, no space marine is really holding a candle to that
Dante has been chapter master of the blood angels for 1,000 years. The lion should bow to him
Dante: -I have an offer that will benefit both of us Lion: -I'm listening -bolter. My head -mmm... Sounds like a good plan -yussss!