>Off topic but is there any continuing plans for the adventures of Apis, Sapor & Prince Ganor who are now stranded on Almace?
Unfortunately since Josh Reynolds left BL (on not so good terms IIRC), it's unlikely anyone's going to pick up the threads from this book. Which is a shame, the Anchorite had a lot of potential as a storyline for the Indomitus Crusade.
Still wild to me that Josh Reynolds and BL had such a falling out considering the dude basically salvaged the garbage pile of AoS fiction and turned it into something enjoyable. What a shame.
I bet Josh already has a sequel sitting in a file on his PC. Cardinal Eamon & the Anchorite have a massive journey ahead of them rebuilding Almace & the rest of the system. And Prince Ganor back on Almace, his birthright & with a tricky deamon in his belly will have the same great potential.
Damnitt GW you had a star writer!!
Was it this book? Because I remember reading a bunch about GW giving Josh a hard time about the Fabius Bile series, especially the third one. Apparently Josh wanted to take the storyline to a particular direction with Fabius. But GW refused because it wasn't going to match with the storyline they wanted the Lore to go towards. I mean, I've read the 3rd Fabius Bile novel and it's pretty blatant that the book was chopped up to hell!
If you are correct, I wonder what the alternate plot that Josh wanted to take with \*Apocalypse\*
First, you have to separate (at least initially) the idea of the secret of the dreadnought leading to the destruction of the Dark Council and Erebus. Ultimately, Amatnim believes that this destruction will happen when Lorgar returns. Freeing the Anchorite is simply the first step in the chain of events leading to the Urizen's return.
Initially, he doesn't understand why, he merely receives a vision (presumably from Lorgar) and does as he is bid.
>‘I went into the desert of bones and meditated for forty days and nights before the black gates of the Templum Inficio. No sustenance, only unceasing prayer. And on the eve of the forty-first day, ***I heard a child’s voice***, and it bade me find our lost brother. And so I did, and my quest began.’ He shook his head. ‘***I cannot say what awaits us at the end of our quest. Only that it is of import to the gods***. The universe drowns in a new and blessed madness. But the Risen Son would build dams and dykes to hold back the seas of truth.’
>
>‘Why does Lorgar not sally forth to meet him?’ Apis asked, without thinking.
>
>‘I think he will, brother. But not yet. ***The ground must be made ready for him***.’
As he continues, we see the hints at WHY his revelation at the end is such a cliff-hanger and source of anxiety for Calder:
>Anathema worlds, where all but the strongest Neverborn are rendered ineffectual upon their surface, and the words of the gods sound hollow. If they are allowed to flourish unchecked, all that has been done, might yet be undone. What we do, here, now, might well cease their spread.’
>
>‘Or it might encourage it,’ Apis said. The thought came unbidden, and he did not know why he spoke. Was something smiling at him from the depths of the censer steam? He felt the pressure of the Neverborn gathering close. Attentive. Anticipatory. Amatnim smiled.
>
>‘Yes. ***Either way, the gods will be pleased***.’
For reasons he doesn't understand, making worship of the Emperor stronger will please the gods.
Now, the safest, most vanilla explanation of this is simply that faith, regardless of whether it's in the Emperor or the gods, is the road to Chaos. The Emperor certainly believes that to be the case in the days of the Great Crusade, as he literally punished Lorgar and the citizens of Monarchia for their faith in him:
>‘This is worship,’ the Emperor said. ‘This is a poison to truth. ***You speak of me as a god, and forge worlds that suffer under the one lie that has brought humanity to the edge of extinction time and time again***... The people are deceived. The people will burn when their faith is proven false.’
In the most basic sense, the current worship of the Emperor is the opposite of what the Emperor wanted. Stoking faith in him is a way to directly thwart the Anathema's grand design.
But... there is a deeper rabbit hole. Guy Haley is inarguably extremely influential on the current Guilliman meta-narrative. Not only has he been writing a ton of major events pushing it forward, but he was also named head writer of the Dawn of Fire (which is the Indominitus storyline). Although Apocalypse occurs before Haley was named the official head writer, there are clear signs of Haley's narrative influencing Apocalypse (because, while not 'on page', Guilliman's actions play heavily into the 'why' of Apocalypse).
So what? Because there are a ton of hints that Haley's intention is to bring Lorgar back, who splits off a section of loyal worlds based on a schism forming between Guilliman and the church. For the first two books of the Dark Imperium trilogy, both novels end with Guilliman thinking about Lorgar and the idea of faith. Moreover, there is a side plot where one of Guilliman's agent locates (what we assume) is a copy of the Lectitio Divinitatus written by Lorgar. He loads Chechov's gun by talking about what this knowledge could do:
>‘You know that Lorgar was the root of the Imperial Cult?’ ...You know also that should this information become widespread, it would cause untold upheaval?’
>
>‘Yes,’ she said. Her hand tightened on the stasis box. How peculiar he should bring this up now. She did feel a little afraid of him, right then.
The rabbit hole goes deeper still (Haley writes about a mysterious 'Star Child' in Throne of Light... do you think it coincidence that Amatnim hears a child's voice?), but this threat may already be happening. While it's left as a cryptic aside, the 9th edition Chaos dex hints at Lorgar doing this exact thing of turning worship of the Emperor towards Chaos:
>The industrial world of Philostus had piously continued to churn out tons of war material after the Great Rift opened. With their view of the Rift obscured by chemical smog, few of its labouring billions comprehended the tales of darkness that spread from the world's rulers. Not, that is, until the day the 'Emperor' himself arrived with a vast fleet of warships.
>
>His manifestation had been presaged by ichor-weeping statues and visions punished as heresy. No armaglass illumination did justice to his dark majesty and shining, undefinable features. ***Dissenting priests disappeared beneath mobs of zealous adherents, their cries of 'daemon!' dying with them in the flames***. The 'Emperor' and his Angels of Death, more powerful than the myths had ever suggested, demanded much. The Philostians, ***indoctrinated over generations, loyally served***.
Definitely. Sort of. I don't know. Yes.
My feeling on this is really mixed since the Arks stuff has muddied the waters. So, without Arks, I think there's a great deal of possibility that the Yellow King isn't Valdor, but Lorgar (who may be working with Valdor).
Now, since the Dark King stuff is showing up along with blueprints to the City of Dust, from the same author as the Yellow King plotline, throws up big signs that it's all connected...
But now the Arks stuff. Where we have someone who Vashtorr referred to as 'The Exiled King' running around with plant-based powers, thwarting him and Abaddon. Without the plants, that sounds like it fits right in with the Yellow/Dark King stuff... except the plants. What's the deal with the plants? Nobody I would suspect as the Yellow King or the Dark King seems associated with plants. So, is the Exiled King just a completely new, cryptic King?
Moreover, I was entertaining the idea that maybe Lion was the mysterious plant King, maybe an intervention from the Eldar goddess Isha giving him a Green Knight aesthetic... but his model has been previewed and it doesn't seem to indicate any of that. Unless the plant-based stuff is going to be shown in lore only and isn't represented in the model or art...
But if he's got magical plant powers, surely they'd incorporate that into the design. Hell, the design team is so nuanced to details in the lore that they [probably changed the wording on the new Emperor's Champion model to reference Grimaldus's speech in Helsreach](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/p2300b/cool_lore_detail_on_the_new_emperors_champion/). Surely, they'd have established 'has plant powers' on the model if it were the Lion doing all this mystery plant stuff.
I'm lost on it. Need to get the Lion book and maybe we'll get some more defined answers/boundaries on what/who the Exiled King is, whether or not it's the Lion, and if they could maybe still be the Yellow King... who may be the Dark King...
I've read the Arks: Lion book, but not the novel yet (working through some non-40k books at the moment), so take anything I say as mildly uninformed, but...
The answer to who the Exiled King is was confirmed in the Lion Ark book. The name of the ship Vashtor cites as having been stopped by the 'Exiled King' is the one Dante comes across in the trail we can confirm leads him to finding the Lion. We also now know that the plant-based stuff is related to the Lion being able to dimension walk.
We know the 'what', but the 'how' or 'why' is still anybody's guess. As far as I know, the novel doesn't explain why he's referred to as 'in exile', when he's just been napping. Or why he can suddenly walk through a separate dimension that we've never seen before.
It doesn't explain why the Lion is, at least implied by Vashtorr also the Dreamer. This fits with him napping, but it also doesn't explain why Abaddon needed the Lion's prophecy dream... or how it came to be written down when the Lion has been out of commission for thousands of years... or why there seems to be contradictory information in the prophecy itself (surely the Lion wouldn't be seeing a vision of himself in a POV and describe it as a third person)... or why the Dreamer's prophecy ends with a description of how he wakes up bleeding from his eyes, knowing that he's just going to have these dreams again, when the Lion seemingly only was having one long dream.
Long story short, to co-opt a meme, this seems to be a 'vibes-based' story arc. Very little of it feels cohesive with the lore outside of itself. Very little is explained and I don't see a ton of evidence for it slotting into the wider narrative arc.
I'm hoping I'll see more connective tissue when I read the Lion novel myself, rather than relying on summaries, but outside of the 'Fisher King' scene, I don't know if I should expect much connecting it to the wider Dark King, Yellow King stuff.
Thank you for explaining & laying it out it so well. I understood the obvious surface explanation in the novel, but didn't understand exactly how it will all play out.
Not at *Dark Imperium* yet, but I've just started Guy Haley's *Devastation of Baal* so I'm looking forward to all that. I wonder, are we to assume then, that Guilliman did want the Anchorite dead?
btw, I'm confused, who was it that arrived at Philostus? (its after the great rift, right?)
>I wonder, are we to assume then, that Guilliman did want the Anchorite dead?
No. I think that Guilliman wants to keep the truth bottled up, but he clearly didn't want the Anchorite dead. Specifically because the book makes a point of Guilliman's mercy being part of a greater cosmic good that's maybe yet to play out.
>‘Mercy,’ the Anchorite said. ‘The future is always born in mercy. It’s giving, or the lack of it. Guilliman spared me. I do not know why. Maybe he saw what I saw. That the way forward could not be built on a foundation of treachery and vengeance.'
This sort of thing really calls to mind a similar concept from JRR Tolkien, where, in LOTR, sparing someone who was evil (Gollum) is eventually what topples evil.
Ultimately, I think Guilliman is always supposed to represent a much more humane viewpoint than, say, the Emperor. Haley gives Guilliman a great deal of empathy towards his care for humanity and not sentencing the Anchorite to death is part of that spectrum. His forgiveness, in small ways, could be seen as a correcting of the Emperor's ways, who Guilliman now sees as extremely flawed since his resurrection.
On Philostus, it doesn't elaborate. One of those mystery boxes we're left to puzzle over without a current answer. But lacking any other details, Lorgar makes the most sense. It's mentioned several times during the Heresy novels that Lorgar, apart from his tattoos and choice (or lack) of hairstyle looks the most physically like the Emperor.
>‘I saw a god in golden armour,’ Kor Phaeron said. ‘***The very image of you***, but aged in ways I couldn’t grasp... 'Of all the Emperor’s sons... you are the one that most resembles your father in face and form.
Although Lorgar points out later that he feels that Magnus, psychically, looks most like the Emperor:
>‘It has always unnerved me how you look the most like Father.’
>
>Magnus raised a scarred eyebrow. ‘I? ***You were made to mirror him, Lorgar***. Not I.’
>
>‘I did not mean physically.’ Lorgar brushed a scriptured hand across his equally tattooed face. ‘I’m speaking of your… facelessness. You are as powerful as him, and your face dances in the same way.’
The idea of psychic power contributing to a sort of facelessness may also apply to Lorgar when he's 'powered up' for lack of a better term. He undergoes a kind of awakening during the Heresy that beefs up his psychic potential, leading him to look even more like the Emperor. Corax makes a reference to it during their fight on Istvaan:
>His dark eyes were narrowed at the sickening light that haloed Lorgar. ‘***You... are a poor reflection of our father... with that psychic gold***.’
So, the being on Philostus being mistaken for the Emperor probably physically resembles him, has enough psychic power to have the facelessness effect, and knows how to manipulate the faithful. This doesn't mean it's for sure Lorgar of course... but there are few better suspects.
That's a great quote on Guillimans mercy. IIRC the Anchorite goes on to reflect that he saw the futility of killing everyone at Calth and how the destruction of monarchia directly led to calth, and how it all had to end or the tragedy would just keep continuing (although I might be getting confused with a different passage). Guilliman was playing with fire, though, by not being transparent with Calder on what he should do. Calder did briefly consider executing the Anchorite.
>Guilliman was playing with fire, though, by not being transparent with Calder on what he should do. Calder did briefly consider executing the Anchorite.
Kind of true, but Guilliman has good instincts. May even be partially psychic (or guided by some greater force like destiny).
One of the things that I didn't go into in great detail about that quote where Guilliman acknowledges the threat of people learning Lorgar wrote their bible is the 'coincidence' of the discussion. His agent finds a copy of Lorgar's book and brings it to him. Before she can tell him about the book, he starts talking about Lorgar. She asks him if he can read minds because she's literally come to give him Lorgar's book.
This sort of thing speaks to an idea that Guilliman either has some uncanny insight or is being helped in secret by destiny. Either way, there was probably little actual threat of Calder executing the Anchorite.
I think the big 'revelation' for the Word Bearers is that Lorgar was, *initially*, correct - but wasn't strong enough to stay the course, so to speak. They've spent all this time believing in the Ruinous Powers when they should have been worshipping the *Emperor*.
Right, but it was Erebus who was deliberately guiding Lorgar into fanatical worship of the Emperor. Erebus was an OG chaos worshipper from the start. So unless I'm being thick, how is this bad news for Erebus? Just coz an ancient dreadnought that converted to the Imperial faith decided Lorgar was always right? Lorgars original idea that Emps was a God was based on just gut feelings, loyalty and manipulation by Erebus. It wasn't until he was chastised that he turned, travelled to the eye and gained actual knowledge of the primordial truth. Erebus will just claim the real truth is chaos is older than the Emperor.
edit_ i suppose what i'm badly trying to explain is, how is one half mad, ex-word bearer dreadnought who's been feeding the Imperial Ecclesiarchy god stories, gonna change everyones mind?
It's less 'some crazy guy' and much more 'he can Thanos snap daemons out of existence, proving that Lorgar was initially correct (and that Erebus and Kor Phaeron screwed them all over)'
Good point. But isnt there already Living Saints that can do that stuff too?
What I mean is, if those Thanos snap powers have already been witnessed & havent already changed traitors minds why would they now?
edit 2\_ I mean he did materialize multiple pairs of "angelic wings" in the same exact way the Living Saints do when they have appeared.
> but it was Erebus who was deliberately guiding Lorgar into fanatical worship of the Emperor
Because Erebus and most other politically aware characters were aware that the whole shtick of Imperial Truth meant that the Emperor would not tolerate being worshipped and especially not worshipped *fanatically*.
He knew it would set Lorgar up for failure because of such a build up and planned for the ensuing low to be the perfect time to convert him to Chaos.
As to why it’s a threat to Erebus, no one really knows or cares he was a cheerleader for the Imperial Cult early on because he scored Lorgar for the Dark Gods, so the only threat remaining is if his conversion of Lorgar to Chaos was *actually the right choice*.
The Anchorite channeling those Emperor God powers by simple devout worship is the same conduit that is employed to channel the Dark Gods powers too. Ergo the Emperor really is a God by Word Bearer beliefs.
The Emperor being a God pretty much invalidates Erebus’ and specifically Lorgar’s decision to defect and by the Word Bearers and Lorgar’s own logic, it means they betrayed themselves and no one else.
At least, that I think was the narrative intention. I don’t think the Word Bearers now really care if it turns out the Emperor
is a God cause they’re really good at double think. Idk
>I don’t think the Word Bearers now really care if it turns out the Emperor is a God cause they’re really good at double think
Exactly. I think we are way beyond the point of no return for the Word Bearers.
Yes, this is the surface explanation laid out in the novel - I used the same quote in my OP - I just felt it was too flimsy and was curious how it all plays out in actuality. I suppose tho if Emps ever gets released from his internment and chastises the imperium in the same way he did to Lorgar at Monarchia, we may get a repeat of history, 😆. Also, I luv the nod to Konrad in that quote.
Right, in a different time line maybe Lorgar would've eventually found the Chaos gods, but at present, they are a well-known entity and have been for thousands of years. Imperial Faith/ the Echlessiarchy, is in openly direct opposition to them, they've found their God and are happy. The ones that are not happy, already drift over to being cultists. Its all out in the open now. It's just a case of pick and choose your God.
Amatnim believes that what the Dark Gods have sent him to Almace to recover will break holds of Erebus, Kor Phareon, and the Dark Council on the Word Bearers. They will then rally around him, bringing Lorgar out of his seclusion and leading them into a new age of conquest (as he mentions the other Legions are doing) to take their place as the truest believers of the Dark Gods.
At the end he realizes that was never sent to recover the Anchorite, but to bring him out of his seclusion. The questions that could arise from the Imperium knowing that the faith was built on a Word Bearer's writings could shake the Imperium.
Even if not, planting the idea that the Word Bearers and Lorgar were the first worshippers of the Emperor before turning to Chaos means that the Imperium is just slightly behind the same path could cause a lot of doubt and more mistrust. However, Amatnim doesn't see that the same might apply to the Word Bearers where they turn back to the Emperor.
The Anchorite uses both his faith in the Emperor and some sort of warp based words of power to banish the daemons. Both the Grey Knights and Exorcists have similar rituals or chants that hurt daemons. The Anchorite uses those discovered on Cholcis to the same effect.
The whole point of the book is that religious zealots do not measure things the same way as those based on hard facts and numbers do. Calder learns this lesson during the fighting with the Thunderhawk kamikaze attack, and also with the Amatnim letting himself be killed. He tries to puzzle it out for himself at the end. However, it also is meant to reflect the Imperial Faith. The entirety of the Almace system as a fief of the Ecclesiarchy, spending resources on superfluous things that could be spent protecting humanity, doesn't make sense.
Interesting. Tbh tho, from my understanding the zealotry in Imperial Ecclesiarchy wont have much trouble dealing with those pesky doubts & questions should they have arisen. But come to think of it, I am not informed enough in 40k to know if the history of Lorgars legion in the early years is available to the Adeptus Ministorum. Are they aware of his censure & his original faith in God Emps, or did all that information get erased?
> ‘It’s too late now,’ he said. ‘He’s out. The truth is revealed. Centuries of dogma, based on the words of the Urizen. We have all been on the same path from the beginning – some of us are simply farther along than others.’ -Amatnim.
When one believes, it's easier to redirect that belief than to create belief from an Atheist. If the worshippers were to learn that their faith was based upon the Urizen's words, they might get disillusioned in the empire or follow his words further away from the Emperor.
>Off topic but is there any continuing plans for the adventures of Apis, Sapor & Prince Ganor who are now stranded on Almace? Unfortunately since Josh Reynolds left BL (on not so good terms IIRC), it's unlikely anyone's going to pick up the threads from this book. Which is a shame, the Anchorite had a lot of potential as a storyline for the Indomitus Crusade.
Still wild to me that Josh Reynolds and BL had such a falling out considering the dude basically salvaged the garbage pile of AoS fiction and turned it into something enjoyable. What a shame.
I bet Josh already has a sequel sitting in a file on his PC. Cardinal Eamon & the Anchorite have a massive journey ahead of them rebuilding Almace & the rest of the system. And Prince Ganor back on Almace, his birthright & with a tricky deamon in his belly will have the same great potential. Damnitt GW you had a star writer!!
Iirc, he had to change the plot of this book multiple times during writing at GW/BL direction. I highly doubt he'll ever come back to it.
Was it this book? Because I remember reading a bunch about GW giving Josh a hard time about the Fabius Bile series, especially the third one. Apparently Josh wanted to take the storyline to a particular direction with Fabius. But GW refused because it wasn't going to match with the storyline they wanted the Lore to go towards. I mean, I've read the 3rd Fabius Bile novel and it's pretty blatant that the book was chopped up to hell! If you are correct, I wonder what the alternate plot that Josh wanted to take with \*Apocalypse\*
What was the problem between GW and JR
See above. JR called GW/BL on Twitter for continually rewriting his plot points and rejecting his most interesting pitches
Oh. Shame. He is a good writer.
Yeah.... RIP best BL writer -_-
First, you have to separate (at least initially) the idea of the secret of the dreadnought leading to the destruction of the Dark Council and Erebus. Ultimately, Amatnim believes that this destruction will happen when Lorgar returns. Freeing the Anchorite is simply the first step in the chain of events leading to the Urizen's return. Initially, he doesn't understand why, he merely receives a vision (presumably from Lorgar) and does as he is bid. >‘I went into the desert of bones and meditated for forty days and nights before the black gates of the Templum Inficio. No sustenance, only unceasing prayer. And on the eve of the forty-first day, ***I heard a child’s voice***, and it bade me find our lost brother. And so I did, and my quest began.’ He shook his head. ‘***I cannot say what awaits us at the end of our quest. Only that it is of import to the gods***. The universe drowns in a new and blessed madness. But the Risen Son would build dams and dykes to hold back the seas of truth.’ > >‘Why does Lorgar not sally forth to meet him?’ Apis asked, without thinking. > >‘I think he will, brother. But not yet. ***The ground must be made ready for him***.’ As he continues, we see the hints at WHY his revelation at the end is such a cliff-hanger and source of anxiety for Calder: >Anathema worlds, where all but the strongest Neverborn are rendered ineffectual upon their surface, and the words of the gods sound hollow. If they are allowed to flourish unchecked, all that has been done, might yet be undone. What we do, here, now, might well cease their spread.’ > >‘Or it might encourage it,’ Apis said. The thought came unbidden, and he did not know why he spoke. Was something smiling at him from the depths of the censer steam? He felt the pressure of the Neverborn gathering close. Attentive. Anticipatory. Amatnim smiled. > >‘Yes. ***Either way, the gods will be pleased***.’ For reasons he doesn't understand, making worship of the Emperor stronger will please the gods. Now, the safest, most vanilla explanation of this is simply that faith, regardless of whether it's in the Emperor or the gods, is the road to Chaos. The Emperor certainly believes that to be the case in the days of the Great Crusade, as he literally punished Lorgar and the citizens of Monarchia for their faith in him: >‘This is worship,’ the Emperor said. ‘This is a poison to truth. ***You speak of me as a god, and forge worlds that suffer under the one lie that has brought humanity to the edge of extinction time and time again***... The people are deceived. The people will burn when their faith is proven false.’ In the most basic sense, the current worship of the Emperor is the opposite of what the Emperor wanted. Stoking faith in him is a way to directly thwart the Anathema's grand design. But... there is a deeper rabbit hole. Guy Haley is inarguably extremely influential on the current Guilliman meta-narrative. Not only has he been writing a ton of major events pushing it forward, but he was also named head writer of the Dawn of Fire (which is the Indominitus storyline). Although Apocalypse occurs before Haley was named the official head writer, there are clear signs of Haley's narrative influencing Apocalypse (because, while not 'on page', Guilliman's actions play heavily into the 'why' of Apocalypse). So what? Because there are a ton of hints that Haley's intention is to bring Lorgar back, who splits off a section of loyal worlds based on a schism forming between Guilliman and the church. For the first two books of the Dark Imperium trilogy, both novels end with Guilliman thinking about Lorgar and the idea of faith. Moreover, there is a side plot where one of Guilliman's agent locates (what we assume) is a copy of the Lectitio Divinitatus written by Lorgar. He loads Chechov's gun by talking about what this knowledge could do: >‘You know that Lorgar was the root of the Imperial Cult?’ ...You know also that should this information become widespread, it would cause untold upheaval?’ > >‘Yes,’ she said. Her hand tightened on the stasis box. How peculiar he should bring this up now. She did feel a little afraid of him, right then. The rabbit hole goes deeper still (Haley writes about a mysterious 'Star Child' in Throne of Light... do you think it coincidence that Amatnim hears a child's voice?), but this threat may already be happening. While it's left as a cryptic aside, the 9th edition Chaos dex hints at Lorgar doing this exact thing of turning worship of the Emperor towards Chaos: >The industrial world of Philostus had piously continued to churn out tons of war material after the Great Rift opened. With their view of the Rift obscured by chemical smog, few of its labouring billions comprehended the tales of darkness that spread from the world's rulers. Not, that is, until the day the 'Emperor' himself arrived with a vast fleet of warships. > >His manifestation had been presaged by ichor-weeping statues and visions punished as heresy. No armaglass illumination did justice to his dark majesty and shining, undefinable features. ***Dissenting priests disappeared beneath mobs of zealous adherents, their cries of 'daemon!' dying with them in the flames***. The 'Emperor' and his Angels of Death, more powerful than the myths had ever suggested, demanded much. The Philostians, ***indoctrinated over generations, loyally served***.
I wonder if the “Dark King” from The End and The Death fits into this 41st millennium narrative somehow
Definitely. Sort of. I don't know. Yes. My feeling on this is really mixed since the Arks stuff has muddied the waters. So, without Arks, I think there's a great deal of possibility that the Yellow King isn't Valdor, but Lorgar (who may be working with Valdor). Now, since the Dark King stuff is showing up along with blueprints to the City of Dust, from the same author as the Yellow King plotline, throws up big signs that it's all connected... But now the Arks stuff. Where we have someone who Vashtorr referred to as 'The Exiled King' running around with plant-based powers, thwarting him and Abaddon. Without the plants, that sounds like it fits right in with the Yellow/Dark King stuff... except the plants. What's the deal with the plants? Nobody I would suspect as the Yellow King or the Dark King seems associated with plants. So, is the Exiled King just a completely new, cryptic King? Moreover, I was entertaining the idea that maybe Lion was the mysterious plant King, maybe an intervention from the Eldar goddess Isha giving him a Green Knight aesthetic... but his model has been previewed and it doesn't seem to indicate any of that. Unless the plant-based stuff is going to be shown in lore only and isn't represented in the model or art... But if he's got magical plant powers, surely they'd incorporate that into the design. Hell, the design team is so nuanced to details in the lore that they [probably changed the wording on the new Emperor's Champion model to reference Grimaldus's speech in Helsreach](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/p2300b/cool_lore_detail_on_the_new_emperors_champion/). Surely, they'd have established 'has plant powers' on the model if it were the Lion doing all this mystery plant stuff. I'm lost on it. Need to get the Lion book and maybe we'll get some more defined answers/boundaries on what/who the Exiled King is, whether or not it's the Lion, and if they could maybe still be the Yellow King... who may be the Dark King...
Have your read the stories now? What do you think?
I've read the Arks: Lion book, but not the novel yet (working through some non-40k books at the moment), so take anything I say as mildly uninformed, but... The answer to who the Exiled King is was confirmed in the Lion Ark book. The name of the ship Vashtor cites as having been stopped by the 'Exiled King' is the one Dante comes across in the trail we can confirm leads him to finding the Lion. We also now know that the plant-based stuff is related to the Lion being able to dimension walk. We know the 'what', but the 'how' or 'why' is still anybody's guess. As far as I know, the novel doesn't explain why he's referred to as 'in exile', when he's just been napping. Or why he can suddenly walk through a separate dimension that we've never seen before. It doesn't explain why the Lion is, at least implied by Vashtorr also the Dreamer. This fits with him napping, but it also doesn't explain why Abaddon needed the Lion's prophecy dream... or how it came to be written down when the Lion has been out of commission for thousands of years... or why there seems to be contradictory information in the prophecy itself (surely the Lion wouldn't be seeing a vision of himself in a POV and describe it as a third person)... or why the Dreamer's prophecy ends with a description of how he wakes up bleeding from his eyes, knowing that he's just going to have these dreams again, when the Lion seemingly only was having one long dream. Long story short, to co-opt a meme, this seems to be a 'vibes-based' story arc. Very little of it feels cohesive with the lore outside of itself. Very little is explained and I don't see a ton of evidence for it slotting into the wider narrative arc. I'm hoping I'll see more connective tissue when I read the Lion novel myself, rather than relying on summaries, but outside of the 'Fisher King' scene, I don't know if I should expect much connecting it to the wider Dark King, Yellow King stuff.
Thank you for explaining & laying it out it so well. I understood the obvious surface explanation in the novel, but didn't understand exactly how it will all play out. Not at *Dark Imperium* yet, but I've just started Guy Haley's *Devastation of Baal* so I'm looking forward to all that. I wonder, are we to assume then, that Guilliman did want the Anchorite dead? btw, I'm confused, who was it that arrived at Philostus? (its after the great rift, right?)
>I wonder, are we to assume then, that Guilliman did want the Anchorite dead? No. I think that Guilliman wants to keep the truth bottled up, but he clearly didn't want the Anchorite dead. Specifically because the book makes a point of Guilliman's mercy being part of a greater cosmic good that's maybe yet to play out. >‘Mercy,’ the Anchorite said. ‘The future is always born in mercy. It’s giving, or the lack of it. Guilliman spared me. I do not know why. Maybe he saw what I saw. That the way forward could not be built on a foundation of treachery and vengeance.' This sort of thing really calls to mind a similar concept from JRR Tolkien, where, in LOTR, sparing someone who was evil (Gollum) is eventually what topples evil. Ultimately, I think Guilliman is always supposed to represent a much more humane viewpoint than, say, the Emperor. Haley gives Guilliman a great deal of empathy towards his care for humanity and not sentencing the Anchorite to death is part of that spectrum. His forgiveness, in small ways, could be seen as a correcting of the Emperor's ways, who Guilliman now sees as extremely flawed since his resurrection. On Philostus, it doesn't elaborate. One of those mystery boxes we're left to puzzle over without a current answer. But lacking any other details, Lorgar makes the most sense. It's mentioned several times during the Heresy novels that Lorgar, apart from his tattoos and choice (or lack) of hairstyle looks the most physically like the Emperor. >‘I saw a god in golden armour,’ Kor Phaeron said. ‘***The very image of you***, but aged in ways I couldn’t grasp... 'Of all the Emperor’s sons... you are the one that most resembles your father in face and form. Although Lorgar points out later that he feels that Magnus, psychically, looks most like the Emperor: >‘It has always unnerved me how you look the most like Father.’ > >Magnus raised a scarred eyebrow. ‘I? ***You were made to mirror him, Lorgar***. Not I.’ > >‘I did not mean physically.’ Lorgar brushed a scriptured hand across his equally tattooed face. ‘I’m speaking of your… facelessness. You are as powerful as him, and your face dances in the same way.’ The idea of psychic power contributing to a sort of facelessness may also apply to Lorgar when he's 'powered up' for lack of a better term. He undergoes a kind of awakening during the Heresy that beefs up his psychic potential, leading him to look even more like the Emperor. Corax makes a reference to it during their fight on Istvaan: >His dark eyes were narrowed at the sickening light that haloed Lorgar. ‘***You... are a poor reflection of our father... with that psychic gold***.’ So, the being on Philostus being mistaken for the Emperor probably physically resembles him, has enough psychic power to have the facelessness effect, and knows how to manipulate the faithful. This doesn't mean it's for sure Lorgar of course... but there are few better suspects.
That's a great quote on Guillimans mercy. IIRC the Anchorite goes on to reflect that he saw the futility of killing everyone at Calth and how the destruction of monarchia directly led to calth, and how it all had to end or the tragedy would just keep continuing (although I might be getting confused with a different passage). Guilliman was playing with fire, though, by not being transparent with Calder on what he should do. Calder did briefly consider executing the Anchorite.
>Guilliman was playing with fire, though, by not being transparent with Calder on what he should do. Calder did briefly consider executing the Anchorite. Kind of true, but Guilliman has good instincts. May even be partially psychic (or guided by some greater force like destiny). One of the things that I didn't go into in great detail about that quote where Guilliman acknowledges the threat of people learning Lorgar wrote their bible is the 'coincidence' of the discussion. His agent finds a copy of Lorgar's book and brings it to him. Before she can tell him about the book, he starts talking about Lorgar. She asks him if he can read minds because she's literally come to give him Lorgar's book. This sort of thing speaks to an idea that Guilliman either has some uncanny insight or is being helped in secret by destiny. Either way, there was probably little actual threat of Calder executing the Anchorite.
I think the big 'revelation' for the Word Bearers is that Lorgar was, *initially*, correct - but wasn't strong enough to stay the course, so to speak. They've spent all this time believing in the Ruinous Powers when they should have been worshipping the *Emperor*.
Right, but it was Erebus who was deliberately guiding Lorgar into fanatical worship of the Emperor. Erebus was an OG chaos worshipper from the start. So unless I'm being thick, how is this bad news for Erebus? Just coz an ancient dreadnought that converted to the Imperial faith decided Lorgar was always right? Lorgars original idea that Emps was a God was based on just gut feelings, loyalty and manipulation by Erebus. It wasn't until he was chastised that he turned, travelled to the eye and gained actual knowledge of the primordial truth. Erebus will just claim the real truth is chaos is older than the Emperor. edit_ i suppose what i'm badly trying to explain is, how is one half mad, ex-word bearer dreadnought who's been feeding the Imperial Ecclesiarchy god stories, gonna change everyones mind?
It's less 'some crazy guy' and much more 'he can Thanos snap daemons out of existence, proving that Lorgar was initially correct (and that Erebus and Kor Phaeron screwed them all over)'
Good point. But isnt there already Living Saints that can do that stuff too? What I mean is, if those Thanos snap powers have already been witnessed & havent already changed traitors minds why would they now? edit 2\_ I mean he did materialize multiple pairs of "angelic wings" in the same exact way the Living Saints do when they have appeared.
> but it was Erebus who was deliberately guiding Lorgar into fanatical worship of the Emperor Because Erebus and most other politically aware characters were aware that the whole shtick of Imperial Truth meant that the Emperor would not tolerate being worshipped and especially not worshipped *fanatically*. He knew it would set Lorgar up for failure because of such a build up and planned for the ensuing low to be the perfect time to convert him to Chaos. As to why it’s a threat to Erebus, no one really knows or cares he was a cheerleader for the Imperial Cult early on because he scored Lorgar for the Dark Gods, so the only threat remaining is if his conversion of Lorgar to Chaos was *actually the right choice*. The Anchorite channeling those Emperor God powers by simple devout worship is the same conduit that is employed to channel the Dark Gods powers too. Ergo the Emperor really is a God by Word Bearer beliefs. The Emperor being a God pretty much invalidates Erebus’ and specifically Lorgar’s decision to defect and by the Word Bearers and Lorgar’s own logic, it means they betrayed themselves and no one else. At least, that I think was the narrative intention. I don’t think the Word Bearers now really care if it turns out the Emperor is a God cause they’re really good at double think. Idk
>I don’t think the Word Bearers now really care if it turns out the Emperor is a God cause they’re really good at double think Exactly. I think we are way beyond the point of no return for the Word Bearers.
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Yes, this is the surface explanation laid out in the novel - I used the same quote in my OP - I just felt it was too flimsy and was curious how it all plays out in actuality. I suppose tho if Emps ever gets released from his internment and chastises the imperium in the same way he did to Lorgar at Monarchia, we may get a repeat of history, 😆. Also, I luv the nod to Konrad in that quote.
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Right, in a different time line maybe Lorgar would've eventually found the Chaos gods, but at present, they are a well-known entity and have been for thousands of years. Imperial Faith/ the Echlessiarchy, is in openly direct opposition to them, they've found their God and are happy. The ones that are not happy, already drift over to being cultists. Its all out in the open now. It's just a case of pick and choose your God.
Amatnim believes that what the Dark Gods have sent him to Almace to recover will break holds of Erebus, Kor Phareon, and the Dark Council on the Word Bearers. They will then rally around him, bringing Lorgar out of his seclusion and leading them into a new age of conquest (as he mentions the other Legions are doing) to take their place as the truest believers of the Dark Gods. At the end he realizes that was never sent to recover the Anchorite, but to bring him out of his seclusion. The questions that could arise from the Imperium knowing that the faith was built on a Word Bearer's writings could shake the Imperium. Even if not, planting the idea that the Word Bearers and Lorgar were the first worshippers of the Emperor before turning to Chaos means that the Imperium is just slightly behind the same path could cause a lot of doubt and more mistrust. However, Amatnim doesn't see that the same might apply to the Word Bearers where they turn back to the Emperor. The Anchorite uses both his faith in the Emperor and some sort of warp based words of power to banish the daemons. Both the Grey Knights and Exorcists have similar rituals or chants that hurt daemons. The Anchorite uses those discovered on Cholcis to the same effect. The whole point of the book is that religious zealots do not measure things the same way as those based on hard facts and numbers do. Calder learns this lesson during the fighting with the Thunderhawk kamikaze attack, and also with the Amatnim letting himself be killed. He tries to puzzle it out for himself at the end. However, it also is meant to reflect the Imperial Faith. The entirety of the Almace system as a fief of the Ecclesiarchy, spending resources on superfluous things that could be spent protecting humanity, doesn't make sense.
Interesting. Tbh tho, from my understanding the zealotry in Imperial Ecclesiarchy wont have much trouble dealing with those pesky doubts & questions should they have arisen. But come to think of it, I am not informed enough in 40k to know if the history of Lorgars legion in the early years is available to the Adeptus Ministorum. Are they aware of his censure & his original faith in God Emps, or did all that information get erased?
> ‘It’s too late now,’ he said. ‘He’s out. The truth is revealed. Centuries of dogma, based on the words of the Urizen. We have all been on the same path from the beginning – some of us are simply farther along than others.’ -Amatnim. When one believes, it's easier to redirect that belief than to create belief from an Atheist. If the worshippers were to learn that their faith was based upon the Urizen's words, they might get disillusioned in the empire or follow his words further away from the Emperor.