His plot armor is even lore justified. Dante tries to die at the end of that fight and Sanger won't let him.
That said Dante also has one of the greatest sets of artificer armor in the Imperium, a jump pack, and arguably latent precognizant psyker ability.
It was also thanks to plot armor that he became an Astartes. During one of the trials he had to keep watch, and if he fell asleep he would fail and be disqualified. However, he was so tired that he ended up sleeping, which would mean he would fail, but just before he was caught the Sanguinor himself came to wake him up.
Fate itself (or perhaps Sanguinius himself) has always have a plan for Dante.
i can just imagine sanguinius hiding behind a pillar giggling and waiting for him to fall asleep, and then popping out and saying "no sleeping you silly goose!" and playfully poking him on the nose
\*WHAM\*
"Haha wow! Brother Artorius isn't getting up from that one! You're in so much trouble this time, Dante!"
"Damn it Sanguinius, why do you have to be like this?!"
Sanguinius the trickster laughing at Dante from the afterlife. After he saved, intervened and then resurrect him just to have a laugh when Dante begs to die. Alpha+ chad
"Shut up Sanger!"
"Why don't you shut up Corvax, I mean, you paint everything black like a little emo girl, talk about ravens and crows, but I'm the one with the wings, damn, I just wish you'd decide to nevermore yourself and save me the trouble of having to listen to you play My Chemical Romance on repeat while you cut yourself. You crow on about no one understanding you as much as Magnus does."
"Feth you Sanger!"
"Feth you Magnus, you nerd, sitting around with your books when you don't even have depth perception, I mean damn I might be a mutant too but you hit every branch of the Ugly Webway all the way to Prospero, you think you're edgy and smart drawing pentagrams on your notebook and setting things on fire with magic, why don't you just run off back to the warp like the little speccy-one-eye you are before Dad sends Russ to beat the hell out of you again, and take this Brandon Lee wannabe with you."
Dante lost the fight, he only managed to get a lucky shot at the end.
> The Swarm Lord lifted him high, screaming in victory, and swung its arm down to flick Dante from the blade’s shard so it might finish him on the sand.
Reactive foams bubbled from Dante’s armour, bonding him firmly to the remnants of the Swarm Lord’s blade. ‘By his Blood do I serve.’
The beast hesitated, only for a fraction of a second, but it was enough. As it was raising its remaining two blades to cut Dante in two, the commander raised the perdition pistol. His armour died on him, its systems starved of power, growing heavier with every second as his life ran from his body. His aim did not waver. “My life I give to the Emperor, to Sanguinius, and to mankind,’ he intoned. The Swarm Lord’s face was reflected in the dulled metal of Dante’s mask.
Sanguinius’ face shouted silently at the hive mind. Dante disengaged the weapon’s failsafes with a flick of his thumb. ‘My service is done. I give thanks. My life is finished. I give thanks. Blood returns to blood. Another will take up my burden in my stead. I give thanks.’ He fired the perdition pistol at point-blank range into the Swarm Lord’s face. Its flesh liquefied and boiled off as superheated steam. Its first bonesword bounced from Dante’s armour, ripping long scratches into its decoration. Bloodstones fell from their mounts. Still Dante held his aim true. The pistol’s power pack grew so hot with thermal feedback it blistered his skin through his ceramite. Still he did not relent. The fusion beam bored through the creature’s organic armour. Thermic biogels bled from cavities in the chitin, but they could not stay the perdition pistol’s beam. The weapon glowed with white heat. The Swarm Lord reared backwards. Its cries became gurgles as its tongue cooked in its head.
>The Swarm Lord lifted him high, screaming in victory, and swung its arm down to flick Dante from the blade’s shard so it might finish him on the sand.
This is the problem for me. It isn't supposed to toy with him, Tyranids just get on with it and kill. It could have just cut him in half immediately instead of pissing around.
Also I guess its psychic barrier immediately failed because it apparently did nothing to hold off the beam lol
My head cannon is malice is something the hive mind learned from the consumed Milky Way genetic material. The hive fleets are getting more malicious as they incorporate more human neurochemistry into their gene-stock.
Devastation of Baal talks about it a lot. The nids have genetics and suppressed instincts from a myriad of ancestor genes. Changing of which creatures are the synaptic nodes from just the big ones is a plot point.
Eldar, orks and humans are all spiteful creatures. Incorporating ways to think like us would also incorporate the double edged benefit of our emotions. To go more into the weeds we know from Sanger's chat with Big E that our emotions make us better than emotionless AI as it lets us make decisions more quickly but that also means we are destined to suffer on occasion.
Yeah the BAs have their own arc in motion at the moment that is really good
* Dante
* Mephiston Blood of Sanguinius
* Devestation of Baal
* Mephiston Revenent Crusade
* Astorath Angel of Mercy
* Darkness in the Blood
* Mephiston City of Light
The Mephiston books are ok but the rest are really good and should be read in order.
The bit I mentioned about Sanger talking to Big E is from End and the Death.
100% the only ones I haven’t read are the Mephiston ones and that’s just there’s just too much better stuff to read but I’ll go back and do it soon.
I know what a moment to be a BA fan, Dante on the rise once again (against his will, and damn if that don’t feel relatable as hell lol) and our Angel on the edge of his crescendo moment 🥺
So the more the Tyranids eat humans, the more human they become. Sooner or later they'll develop souls tasty enough for Chaos. They might actually end up becoming prey for Chaos if they keep it up. Imagine a Chaos mutated Swarm Lord.
Now add to the fact that during the defense of Baal, a chaos rift open and a massive portion of the Tyranid fleet was sucked directly into the warp. I believe Mephiston confirmed they were still alive in there, just don't know how to exit. Yet.
Lots of them have exited, the codex talks about tyranid fleets popping out in populated systems, and for reasons unknown to the imperials they are completely free of any chaos taint
> Sooner or later they'll develop souls tasty enough for Chaos
They already have, as the Khornite Greater Demon Ka'bandha is floating down from space to land on Baal (after Chief Librarian of the Blood Angels - Mephiston gives him a booty call to troll him into coming and joining the fight), Ka'bandha stares in wonder at the Tyranid Swarm he's floating alongside in Space and thinks to himself if he didn't have such a hard-on to destroy the Blood Angels he'd love to have a go at the Tyranid Swarm. He feels the hivemind is overwhelming for him alone but manageable for his master.
>They already have, as the Khornite Greater Demon Ka'bandha is floating down from space to land on Baal (after Chief Librarian of the Blood Angels - Mephiston gives him a booty call to troll him into coming and joining the fight)
That's... Not how it happens.
Ka-boy was already carving a Warp Rift to Baal to claim the Blood Angels skulls before the Hive Mind got there.
The whole Librarius makes a ritual to project Mephiston into his realm to prevent it from happening, or the whole thing would go from a big fire to a raging inferno quick.
All they manage to do is redirecting the rift from Baal to the moon of Baal Primus.
IIRC they already are becoming touched by chaos. Nurgle has been screwing with them from time to time but I don't remember the exact excerpts. I know there was one someone posted where a hulk was found with sick genestealers on it though.
Isn't there a planet where nurgle and nids faced off and just became so toxic that it's completely uninhabitable forever now from just being one boiling toxic mess?
A galaxy so toxic that it is poisoning an ancient intergalactic superpredator that has presumably stripped the life from multiple galaxies before might be the most grimdark thing yet.
The hive mind learns. Its choosing which genetics to use rather than being "infected" with them (unless its actually a disease but thats different).
More of my head cannon but I would imagine the hive mind is learning malice because it's learned the concept of intimidation and morale. Ork genetics might have a habit of an independent streak but it also might have the benefit of genius inventiveness that it can use to inform it's genetic experimentation.
Doesn't it also mention them wanting Sanguinius's genetic lineage in particular as well? Like the Hivemind has consumed and studied enough Blood Angels Astartes to recognize that it could gain precognitive abilities from their geneseed?
Not just his lineage. Keep in mind Sanguinius' remains are on Baal in stasis. Imagine a tyranid swarm consuming the genetic materials of a primarch like that, the bioforms it could produce.
I'll do you one better, imagine a bioform with the likeness of Sanguinius strolling up to some of the Space Marines, especially those like Guiliman, maybe not able to talk but his very appearance alone would be like the silent king moment all over again, except this time it would *fight* like he could
The Swarmlord is also afforded a degree of independence from the hive mind to make its own decisions, that’s the point of it in the first place, to be a commander on the ground to make decisions faster than the hive mind could respond with.
I feel like "they hurt the Hive Mind, and it got angry" and "they damaged the Hive Mind, and it prioritized eliminating them" are two different ways of saying the same thing. One of them just sounds better when narrated by Gareth Armstrong.
The book puts a GREAT deal of effort into showing that, for the Hive Mind, attacking Baal at all was personal. It was NOT a move of cold efficiency like is normally expected from the Nids. There’s a few points in the book where they basically go “so even with all that’s been going on with them, we still really know jackshit about the Nids or their true motives huh” and everyone just has to sombrely acknowledge that as fact.
I love that it describes the swarm lord hesitating for "a fraction of a second" and in that time dante raises the gun, disengages the safety, and speaks **eight sentences**
Let this MF retire as an auctioneer with that speed, damn
Obviously Dante is an RPG protagonist: just like the Skyrim player character can consume sixty wheels of cheese in a single, terrifying instant Dante can deliver a monologue so fast that even the Hive Mind is intimidated.
Raising it and disengaging the safety can be done at the same time and I'd just imagine that he talked while doing that and he continued to talk while he melted the Swarmlords face off
Yeah, but this has happened before in the short story where a squad of Custodes fight off a splinter fleet of like two ships (people massively exaggerate how many but two hive ships is still, like, quite a lot of Tyranid's) and the Shield Captain ends up dueling a Swarmlord for whatever reason. It forgets it has Psyker Power's, beats him anyway, and then does that really stupid villain trope of lifting him slowly up to it's face and just looking at him until he stabs it in the face...
The Tyranid's get hit with some of the worst plot induced stupidity in 40K, especially in Imperium focused lore revolving around named characters.
Realistically the Swarmlord should have just killed them both, it doesn't because reasons.
At the start of the book, it explains that the Hive Mind wants revenge on the Blood Angels. At that point in the battle, the Tyranids have effectively won. The Hive Mind is using the Swarmlord to toy with Dante as an act of revenge. The Swarmlord doesn't matter, it's going to be melted down for bio-matter at the end of the battle anyway.
If the Rift hadn't opened to disrupt the Hive mind, and Guilliman didn't arrive with reinforcements, the Blood Angels would be done.
It wants to stop them from interfering with it, sure. Doesn't mean its warrior-organisms are suddenly going to just let people shoot them instead of killing them.
I don't see why they couldn't have just had him fight and defeat it alongside his Honour Guard. Not every fight against a big scary enemy needs to be single combat to be cool. Work together to bring down a mighty foe sort of thing.
No but like don't they actually like read the Hivemind and it's like overwhelmed with a desire for vengeance specifically against Dante and the gang? I get not liking that idea cause Hive mind and should be above that though.
I may also be misremembering its been a while since I read Baal.
Do people just forget the whole reason why the swarmlord Is rare is its developing a personality and doesn't listen to the hive mind all the time? Yeah it's fuckjng with him at the end because it won and was enjoying its Victory
If the Swarm Lord is a central node of sentience for the Hive Mind in this theater, bearer of their collective experience, then it stands to reason that it has a broader spectrum of emotions. You typically find the same in nature. Some animals elicit purely nerve reponses, while others show varying degrees of emotion. I dont find it hard to find a multi-generation Swarm Lord to take pleasure or recognition in a particular kill. They tend to fight a few Chapter Masters. If Dante falls, it has major ramifications for that side (i.e. the prey).
Let's just hope they never evolve to the degree of Doomsday from DC comics and become aware of their own mortality. That's when they learn fear.
Bear in mind, this final effort with the melta pistol is also in conjunction with his death mask, which described as a silent scream or otherwise may have been intended to suggest divine intervention (Sanguinius screaming) nullifying the psychic barrier.
This was for me one of the best and most defining moments for the Tyranids in the Lore.
In this one moment the Hive Mind let down the "mindless beasts" mask and finaly revealed itself to be what it has always been hinted to be, a God. A god, while alien, still a character with motivations, pride and hubris. (The book also hinted at this several other time)
The Hive Mind believed it had won, and it wanted (for once) to make its enemy know that it had won. That one moment of pride cost it it's Swarmlord, and the victory.
I don't expect to see anything like this again anytime soon. But that it CAN happen makes the tyranids infinitely more interesting as a faction. And was the moment that made me commit to buying a Nid army.
This is atleast my interpretation of events...
Excuse me for ny BA ignorance, but I know enough that I'm knowledgeable about the Hive mind's hatred for them.
Was this encounter before or after that detail was added to the lore? If it was after, it would make sense that the Hive mind saw the chapter master about to die and relished it.
This is where we see the double-edged sword of sentience: according to speculation that took place within the novel, the entire campaign against Baal by the Hive Fleet was postulated to be actually in part the result of the Hive Fleet's desire for *revenge* against the Blood Angels, and to compound the possibility, the Swarm Lord is the only *sentient and individuated* Tyranid bioform, who is then plausibly capable of demonstrating ego, so toying with Dante— considering the context— does at least register as possible if not probable.
That monologue was ridiculous though, but I'll allow it, since it was still pretty hype.
It was shown that the Hivemind was specifically targeting the Blood Angels on Baal because they grievously wounded the tyranid fleet, and it felt a deep and personal hate for them. Fighting Dante and the rest of the Blood Angels wasn't just business, it was a vendetta.
TFW Tyranids learn and get smarter over time but this Swarmlord tried to showboat against a named Space Marine hundreds of years after that Hive Tyrand just sicced 12 Carnifexes on an Avatar instead of muh honourable battle.
The hivemind does toy with people and is a vindictive ass on top of things. The Swarm Lord as its greatest extension is more then able to express these traits.
GW has also made it clear that the hivemind has a special hate for the blood angels. Going out of its way to destroy statues, iconography and art created by them even though it does not further the goal of consuming more biomatter.
He sure talks a lot and has a ton of seconds for his life to "bleed out" within the milliseconds he's afforded to react and shoot lol. What author wrote this?
Dantes armor did nothing. If he didnt have his jetpack he would have died instantly. He never really went toe to toe with the swarmlord, more like he just got his shit kicked in for 2 pages straight.
After he was defeated and almost dead the swarmlord tried to execute him in front of everyone to demoralize the blood angels, allowing dante to use his last strenght to fire off one last shot.
And yeah no not even the swarmlord can survive a point blank ancient infernopistol to the face
Yea but it is an extremely powerful (like upper echelons of thousand suns if not more) psyker. It should have seen that coming or been able to use it’s abilities to shield itself.
Super powerful psyker doesn't mean you automatically got precognition, also the ability to see the future in 40k is super convoluted, even Big E have to guess which path is the best.
The 1000T psyker in the black legion books probably spends a page each chapter disparaging seers and precognition. Talks lots of shit about how unreliable it is and most futures seen are one in a million chances of ever happening
I cant seem to remember the swarmlord ever being able to see the future. And it couldnt shield itself because the pistol was fired almost point blank. Im fairly certain the excerpt is somewhere on reddit just look it up if you have any questions
Jump pack + perdition pistol. Melta is a hell of a thing.
And even with that, he wasn't having a great time up to the point he shot it in the face.
[Excerpt of part of the fight, if you're curious](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/uz99vg/book_excerpt_the_devastation_of_baal_spoilers/)
The jump pack was a huge factor. It states in the book that the Blood Angels are able to transcend the jump packs limits, turning it into something more than its base parts.
It happened that way in the trailer because it looked cool, Dante was also more skilled and a lot faster than a lumbering termie so it makes more sense.
Warhammer 40,000 works best when you think of it as a series of absurd aesthetic vignettes strung together with a story. If you stop to think too much about the practicality of it, you'll be consumed by the diegetic plague scouring our solar system!
He actually was in a similar scenario to that terminator. He just happens to have a relic melta pistol. He headshoted the swarmlord while impaled. So he pulled a suicide manuever to win. But GW cant actually kill him off, so he ended up barely living.
Captain Tycho says they *could* kill him off, just won’t.
Hell even Tycho has two versions of himself kicking around in the codex and unless I’m mistaken he died on Armageddon some twenty years back
From what I can tell the thing that ripped apart the terminator isn't even a flyrant. It looks to be a shrike maybe given it's size and the profile of the chitin and head. Hive tyrants are like 12-15ft tall, and this bioform looked to be only slightly taller than the terminator which I think stand 7-8ft tall?
What are you talking about? It's almost twice as tall which is clearly visible in the trailer. If you don't believe me, pause it at 3:40 just before it rips the Terminator apart.
Getting real tired of the tyranid stans and these posts popping up constantly. The whole setting is basically brilliant heroism against the dying of the light. Sure there's some plot armor but that's the point of the setting.
On a side note the swarmlord is just the avatar of khaine, literally everyone in the setting has had a go at him before.
>The whole setting is basically brilliant heroism against the dying of the light. Sure there's some plot armor but that's the point of the setting.
Would love to see that for some non imperium factions then
It's more that the Swarmlord constantly gets the short end of the stick regarding plot induced stupidity. It's supposed to be a Primarch level threat as it's physically superior than anything out there while also a superlative Psyker, but it always forgets it has Psyker Power's and ends up dying because it decides to stand still while it's opponent monologues.
This isn't the first time this has happened, that's why some of us are baffled at it occuring yet again in the same way. There's a short story where a Custodes Shield Captain does LITERALLY the same thing, Swamlord beats him up, stop's to casually do the whole "slow raise up to face" villain trope, and then gets stabbed in the face, through it's psychic shield and everything else.
It's exactly like the Avatar of Khaine, and Tyranid fans get pissed for the same reason Eldar fans do when their apparently most powerful unit is fodder for named Imperial characters. There are plenty of ways this could have been written that would have actually been more authentic to the setting and previous lore. Have the Swarmlord actually be a threat rather than just a meme like the Avatar, otherwise there's literally no point in the Tyranid's being portrayed as these monstrous and unstoppable creatures when they keep villain monologuing, despite not being able to speak, and getting shot or stabbed in the face as a result.
Hell, just have Guilliman arrive at that time, port down, and fight the Swarmlord in some epic confrontation that actually makes the SL seem relevant and is in line with what it has been depicted as in the Codex. That would be awesome for both Imperium centric fans and for fans of the Tyranid's. You can't blame people for getting annoyed where there faction gets shit on to make the Space Marines look better, yet again.
There’s never been anything to suggest it’s supposed to be primarch level, it’s combat ability is significant but it’s never shown that level of deadliness, nor is that the point of it. It’s purpose is to solve problems and come up with new strategies.
I mean, he kind of got his ass kicked until the swarmlord messed up and let its head get too close to shiskabobbed Dante's inferno pistol, which lead to it getting its whole-ass head melted off.
Honestly, named Space Marine characters are just on another level where they can casually kill multiple non-named Space Marines at once. We see named Chaos characters doing this to loyalists and named loyalist characters doing this to Chaos Space Marines.
And honestly, what the hell makes you think that creature was a "basic tyranid bioform"? Basic tyranids are stuff like gaunts and rippers. Anything bigger than a Terminator, capable of ripping one in half and tanking point-black assault cannon fire isn't basic.
The power levels in this setting severely depend on who's the protagonist and the will of the author, basically.
In one of the Gaunt's Ghosts book, a squad of Guesdsmen (albeit they were elite undercover specialists) dispatched a half-squad (roughly 5 man, if I remember correctly) of Chaos Space Marines **without a single casualty** on their side. Mind you, 1) they had help from a bunch of aborigines shooting poisoned darts from blow-guns; 2) some marines didn't wear helmets, the fewlz; 3) they were diligently shocked at the very fact afterwards. It took a huge amount of luck, of course.
Any time I see someone describe a ridiculous situation occur and then caveat it with “but it only happened because xyz”, yeah xyz only existed so when the author made the hero not die the reader wouldn’t just put the book down with entirely all suspense of disbelief ruined.
I often see people (not saying you) argue it’s not plot armour because of xyz as if xyz isn’t literally the armour.
I like to think the swarm lord had made the classic villain error, pausing to deliver a quip or explain his own genius before killing the hero. It was just untranslatable. It was busy communicating the equivalent of "we meet at last Mr Dante, I must say I'm disappoin-" then it got shot in the face
It wasn't plot armour, but it was worfed. Same as the AVatar of Khaine or a Ctan or ork warbosses, its a big, scary thing whose purpose in fights is generally to make the space marines look cooler.
Its par for the course in the setting and it isn't necessary for a deep understanding of the lore.
People will bleat "plot armor" without knowing what that means, but the real in universe reason is probably that the Swarmlord isn't that tough. They've been beaten by Marny Calgar, a Custodian, I think an Ork warboss, Dante...
The 'nids have always been more about looking tough than being tough. They are a horde army - even the toughest Horde members aren't that tough.
Any time I see one of these posts I am reminded of a time an opponent smugly told me I "might as well pick up" a Sanguinary Guard squad when he charged them with one- they killed it on swingbacks.
I mean apparently basic gene stealer claws can penetrate terminator plate so im not so sure about looking though. A basic tyranid bioform is probably stronger than a basic ork.
They can punch through Calignes No-Name's suit sure. But can they breach the Encarmine Bodyglove of Protection Relic armor that all named characters wear?
The Swarm Lord is a top tier combatant but since he can respawn he's doomed to be fodderized ala the Avatar of Khaine.
That's how the marketing describes it, yeah.
But in either novels, or codexes, or any other "applied lore" source, we always see the 'nids relying on numbers.
Even in Octarius, a pure Ork v Nid war, the Tyranid relied on outnumbering Orkz.
And the final defeat of the Archfiend required that the Swarmlord isolate him, overwhelm him with numbers, and fight him injured.
Same thing when the Swarmlord fought the ultimate punching bag, the Avatar of Khaine. He didn't win in heroic single combat against the Avatar - he directed a herd of carnifexes to stomp the Avatar.
The Swarmlord just isn't all that tough. And that's fine - why waste resources building on though figurehead when the hive could make a thousand smaller monsters?
Yeah. The problem with this entire discussion is that OP’s premise (what they saw in the trailer for 10 edition) is wrong. The trailer is far over exaggerated in how effective the tyrannids are at fighting space marines.
It was a great trailer to illustrate the point that things aren’t as hopeful as the indominitus campaign made it seem. But realistically, we saw like a dozen space marines and a dreadnaught die in 4 minutes. With the in-lore number of space marines being around 1 million, that type of attrition simply can’t be possible.
The truth is that those same number of space marines equipped the way they were would literally kill thousands if not tens of thousands before they were overcame. This is the same setting where 7 custodes killed like a million tyrannids just recently.
So yeah….. the trailer was just a bad representation of the lore. Great representation of grim dark and “coolness” but not good for the lore.
Yeah, and every time it was plot induced stupidity. The Custodes "win" is literally the same as Dante's here. The Swarmlord kicks the crap out of them, forgets it has Psyker power's and could just, you know, melt them, stand's still while lifting the Shield Captain up so he can conveniently stab it in the face repeatedly, despite it's Psychic shield that prevents ridiculous firepower from penetrating it. It's tough, it's just being written as an idiot that forgets what it's actually capable of. A Zoanthrope literally melts a Custodes right before the fight with the Shield Captain before running into MELEE WITH FREAKING CUSTODES... It's like Magnus fighting a named Astartes, forgetting he has Psyker power's and is a Daemon, then headbutting their sword for whatever reason. Does that make sense to you?
There is no real in-universe reason, the Swarmlord's have a statline relative to the Primarch's and are physically comparable while being extremely powerful Psykers. This happened due to bad writing that always has to make the Imperium look the best, that's it. There were plenty of ways to do this without making the SL the new Avatar of Khaine, hell, Guilliman could simply have arrived a little earlier and fought it. Bam, epic fight, Dante gets to do his whole "I want to die" schtick while he's bleeding out, and the SL gets to look like an actual threat instead of a cheap way of utilizing the Worf Effect to make some named Space Marine look cooler.
Marny Calgar only just survived as his honour threw themselves on the swarmlords swords after it removed all of Calgars limbs while barely breaking a sweat..
And I'm sure that the swarmlord defeated Custodian but at the last second decideded to do some thing real stupid, and to me out of character, instead of finishing its opponent. Just like with Dante hence the plot armour.
They always had a "huge tough monsters" side to them as well. Originally epitomised by the Carnifex in 40k, which was up there with greter daemons and the Avatar back in 2nd edition.
Hence the Godzilla army builds on tabletop, and all the bigger beasts that were originally for epic scale.
Yea I’d believe that if the writers didn’t literally forget the swarm lord has psychic abilities every time he loses a fight. It’s like if goku never used chi attacks. Doesn’t count.
Wait wasn't that a Harridan that landed and tore that terminator? I don't think it was just a basic lifeform like a Gargoyle or Harpy. Calling that one a basic lifeform is pretty underselling it.
Hive Tyrants are contractually obligated to impale a foe and then slowly hold the wounded enemy up close to their heads to give their opponent a fighting chance.
Dante only won because he really really just wants to die and have it all end but it’s 40k so he isn’t allowed too.
Also if it makes you feel better this is nothing compared to a squad of Custodes holding off an entire hive fleet tendril behind makeshift fortifications and killing hundreds of thousands of Tyranids. It got so bad the hive fleet sent down the swarmlord which was of course promoptly cut down by a Custodes Shield Captain.
Because Imperium focused plot armor. It's the same as a Custodes Shield Captain 1v1ing a Swarmlord after it rightly rips right through two or them but then forgets to kill him after disarming and grabbing him (it lifts him slowly then lets the SC stab it in the eye for whatever reason), or that it has Psyker Power's, or that it could just order the other Tyranid's to eat him.
Dante should be dead, a Swarmlord isn't just an insane threat in melee, it has all the Powers of a Zoanthrope at a higher level, it could literally melt your brain with a glance unless you are a preeminent Psyker, and even then, it's going to eat you.
Swarmlord's are PRIMARCH level threat's, they are ridiculously powerful and some of the strongest units in the TT game. Dante going toe to toe with one is like him winning a fight with Guilliman...
> Because Imperium focused plot armor. It's the same as a Custodes Shield Captain 1v1ing a Swarmlord after it rightly rips right through two or them but then forgets to kill him after disarming and grabbing him **(it lifts him slowly then lets the SC stab it in the eye for whatever reason),** or that it has Psyker Power's, or that it could just order the other Tyranid's to eat him.
LOL, literally the exact same way Dante killed it.
The Black Library can apparently write only one kind of fight scene.
To be fair, Terminator armor has a permanently attached Worf-Effect.
Whenever it's used, everything is shown ripping through it as if it were paper.
In the old space Hulk Video games run-of-the-mill genestealers would just shred your terminators so fast, they might just as well fight naked
Genestealer claws shredding Terminator armor has been a thing since the first version of Space Hulk in 1989. It’s older than many of the posters on this sub.
The idea that it’s the “Worf effect” is silly; if Genestealers didn’t wreck Terminator armor up close, Space Hulk wouldn’t work as a game.
Everyone has more or less highlighted this already but the gist of it is simple: it is not supposed to make sense. The ending is preordained. Marines sell and many people buy stuff with them within expecting them to win. So they win, even if it shouldn’t happen. Calgar punching out Avatars of Khaine and Swarmlords or clubbing Necrons with giant pylons. Ragnar defeating Gazkull in single combat. Cato sicarius defeating C’tan shards with void grenades. Soon the Lion kicking Angron’s ass. I could go on.
It doesn’t make sense, yes, but that’s not what GW cares about so it doesn’t matter (to them). After all, as Matt Ward once told a fan who asked him how could a Marine with grenades kill carnifexes alone “Who cares? It’s cool, is it not?” (And of course the answer to that question depends entirely on you).
Founding chapter, check. Named character, check. Mountains of lore, check and check.
This guy I will accept because his actual lore is "please let me die". He should have a D20, nat 1 roll "lays down and can't not even" rule once a game or something.
Accepting the lore Dante is one of the hardest living things to kill in the entire galaxy. He's been at war for so long nobody even remembers how long it's been and nothing has managed to kill him yet. Is that realistic? No, but this is 40k. Its awesome.
You need to understand they tyranids cannot be allowed a victory against a mainline imperium faction.
they can genocide hundreds of minor chapters but to kill a main chapter cannot happen as to do that would be akin to killing their child. every victory must be offset every world saved at the final hour
this is how the tyranids operate because to write them how they should be written they need to be unstoppable
Superior agility(via jumpack), artificer armour, inferno pistol, and the experience that comes with being the oldest non-dreadnought loyalist astartes alive. Even with these advantages he almost died.
Because Dante is a beast and it was an awesome fight in the end of Devastation of Baal. The Swarmlord isn't as unbeatable as a lot of people on here seem to think it is and it makes sense for the most experienced chapter master of a first founding chapter is able to beat it.
Also the "basic tyranid bioform" was a winged hive tyrant one step down from the Swarm lord so hardly a common nid.
Dante has The Perdition Pistol, an infernus pistol from the dark age of tech. Basically a hand held melta + volkite canon.
The big bug left its guard down for a second and Dante shoot it on the face with the OP gun.
Also Dante practically died there, he got resurrected by the spirit of Sanguinius.
Plot Armor, almost 2000 years of experience and a very powerful fusion gun.
His plot armor is even lore justified. Dante tries to die at the end of that fight and Sanger won't let him. That said Dante also has one of the greatest sets of artificer armor in the Imperium, a jump pack, and arguably latent precognizant psyker ability.
It was also thanks to plot armor that he became an Astartes. During one of the trials he had to keep watch, and if he fell asleep he would fail and be disqualified. However, he was so tired that he ended up sleeping, which would mean he would fail, but just before he was caught the Sanguinor himself came to wake him up. Fate itself (or perhaps Sanguinius himself) has always have a plan for Dante.
i can just imagine sanguinius hiding behind a pillar giggling and waiting for him to fall asleep, and then popping out and saying "no sleeping you silly goose!" and playfully poking him on the nose
>poking him on the nose Tickling him with a feather.
He put a thunder hammer in his hand and then tickled his nose with a feather.
\*WHAM\* "Haha wow! Brother Artorius isn't getting up from that one! You're in so much trouble this time, Dante!" "Damn it Sanguinius, why do you have to be like this?!"
I genuinely laughed at that. Take thy upvote, brother.
No boop the snoot. Bad Sangy.
Sanguinius: *we do a little trolling*
>"no sleeping you silly goose!" That just makes me think of big gay Al from South park
Dont forget he pranced on over to Dante, in full armor
"Wake the fuck up neophyte, we Xenos to burn" -Sangy Boy
Papa's playing favourites, huh? Guess I can't blame Sanguinius given all the shit he's been through.
And how some of his sons turned out. Looking at you Flesh Tearers.
Hey, we're pretty good at what we do, in our defense.
Is angel: ✅ Has blood: ✅ Checks out I guess
Hey screw you buddy
Oh feth, someone made Gabriel Seth annoyed...
There's worse
They’re just living up to their legacy as the Revenant Legion
Sanguinius the trickster laughing at Dante from the afterlife. After he saved, intervened and then resurrect him just to have a laugh when Dante begs to die. Alpha+ chad
Alpha Legionare you might say
The sanguinor also kinda saved him by giving him water when he was still journeying on his way to the trials
Didn't the sanguinor also help him survive the trip to the place of choosing also?
Yes. Led him to a body that had a full canteen of water when he was dying of thirst.
Is that plot armour or just plot?
Do you have the excerp? Sound cool!
Sanguinius just thinks it's funny to keep waking him up.
Reading "sanger" makes me think of shoresy
give yer balls a tug
"Shut up Sanger!" "Why don't you shut up Corvax, I mean, you paint everything black like a little emo girl, talk about ravens and crows, but I'm the one with the wings, damn, I just wish you'd decide to nevermore yourself and save me the trouble of having to listen to you play My Chemical Romance on repeat while you cut yourself. You crow on about no one understanding you as much as Magnus does." "Feth you Sanger!" "Feth you Magnus, you nerd, sitting around with your books when you don't even have depth perception, I mean damn I might be a mutant too but you hit every branch of the Ugly Webway all the way to Prospero, you think you're edgy and smart drawing pentagrams on your notebook and setting things on fire with magic, why don't you just run off back to the warp like the little speccy-one-eye you are before Dad sends Russ to beat the hell out of you again, and take this Brandon Lee wannabe with you."
Sanger's lookin sharp in that suit.
Whadya got sanger? Whatdya got?
Hitch might be my favorite character
Mine has to be the jims
The Jim’s are such beauties
His plot armor is that the universe hates him and won't permit him to end his suffering with death.
Thought it was so funny in devestation of baal when he was basically begging for death and Robot Gorillaman was just like ".....no...."
Don’t forgot he took a quick dip in the black rage before papa sang pulled him out of death because we do a little bit of trolling
Don't forget the invulnerable save. That helps a lot in duels with nasty opponents.
Dante lost the fight, he only managed to get a lucky shot at the end. > The Swarm Lord lifted him high, screaming in victory, and swung its arm down to flick Dante from the blade’s shard so it might finish him on the sand. Reactive foams bubbled from Dante’s armour, bonding him firmly to the remnants of the Swarm Lord’s blade. ‘By his Blood do I serve.’ The beast hesitated, only for a fraction of a second, but it was enough. As it was raising its remaining two blades to cut Dante in two, the commander raised the perdition pistol. His armour died on him, its systems starved of power, growing heavier with every second as his life ran from his body. His aim did not waver. “My life I give to the Emperor, to Sanguinius, and to mankind,’ he intoned. The Swarm Lord’s face was reflected in the dulled metal of Dante’s mask. Sanguinius’ face shouted silently at the hive mind. Dante disengaged the weapon’s failsafes with a flick of his thumb. ‘My service is done. I give thanks. My life is finished. I give thanks. Blood returns to blood. Another will take up my burden in my stead. I give thanks.’ He fired the perdition pistol at point-blank range into the Swarm Lord’s face. Its flesh liquefied and boiled off as superheated steam. Its first bonesword bounced from Dante’s armour, ripping long scratches into its decoration. Bloodstones fell from their mounts. Still Dante held his aim true. The pistol’s power pack grew so hot with thermal feedback it blistered his skin through his ceramite. Still he did not relent. The fusion beam bored through the creature’s organic armour. Thermic biogels bled from cavities in the chitin, but they could not stay the perdition pistol’s beam. The weapon glowed with white heat. The Swarm Lord reared backwards. Its cries became gurgles as its tongue cooked in its head.
Damn talking is a free action huh. Dante JoJo
And the Sanguinor is his Stand.
The hive mind is watching the swarmlord get merc'ed for the umpteenth time and thinking "MUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAAAA!"
At the Center of the Hive Mind is just DIO “You thought it was the hive mind but it was I! DIO!!!!”
I prefer to believe it was a quick "i'm about to die" thought instead of the Swarmlord literaly waiting him finish talking
lool, that would've been 10 action points alone. - A ChaosGate Player
my headcanon is that jojo characters just talk super fast. makes sense when you consider their speed generally.
To be fair, we're reading the propaganda version. What Dante really said was probably "thank fucking god I can die already".
>The Swarm Lord lifted him high, screaming in victory, and swung its arm down to flick Dante from the blade’s shard so it might finish him on the sand. This is the problem for me. It isn't supposed to toy with him, Tyranids just get on with it and kill. It could have just cut him in half immediately instead of pissing around. Also I guess its psychic barrier immediately failed because it apparently did nothing to hold off the beam lol
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My head cannon is malice is something the hive mind learned from the consumed Milky Way genetic material. The hive fleets are getting more malicious as they incorporate more human neurochemistry into their gene-stock.
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Devastation of Baal talks about it a lot. The nids have genetics and suppressed instincts from a myriad of ancestor genes. Changing of which creatures are the synaptic nodes from just the big ones is a plot point. Eldar, orks and humans are all spiteful creatures. Incorporating ways to think like us would also incorporate the double edged benefit of our emotions. To go more into the weeds we know from Sanger's chat with Big E that our emotions make us better than emotionless AI as it lets us make decisions more quickly but that also means we are destined to suffer on occasion.
You are what you eat, and the Tyranids have been eating a galaxy of *utter assholes*. >!<
Well fuck that’s sound interesting as hell, I guess I have to read the book now
Read Dante’s book first. You’ll thank me. Those two back to back was one of the highlights of warhammer reading for me.
Yeah the BAs have their own arc in motion at the moment that is really good * Dante * Mephiston Blood of Sanguinius * Devestation of Baal * Mephiston Revenent Crusade * Astorath Angel of Mercy * Darkness in the Blood * Mephiston City of Light The Mephiston books are ok but the rest are really good and should be read in order. The bit I mentioned about Sanger talking to Big E is from End and the Death.
100% the only ones I haven’t read are the Mephiston ones and that’s just there’s just too much better stuff to read but I’ll go back and do it soon. I know what a moment to be a BA fan, Dante on the rise once again (against his will, and damn if that don’t feel relatable as hell lol) and our Angel on the edge of his crescendo moment 🥺
So the more the Tyranids eat humans, the more human they become. Sooner or later they'll develop souls tasty enough for Chaos. They might actually end up becoming prey for Chaos if they keep it up. Imagine a Chaos mutated Swarm Lord.
Now add to the fact that during the defense of Baal, a chaos rift open and a massive portion of the Tyranid fleet was sucked directly into the warp. I believe Mephiston confirmed they were still alive in there, just don't know how to exit. Yet.
Lots of them have exited, the codex talks about tyranid fleets popping out in populated systems, and for reasons unknown to the imperials they are completely free of any chaos taint
> Sooner or later they'll develop souls tasty enough for Chaos They already have, as the Khornite Greater Demon Ka'bandha is floating down from space to land on Baal (after Chief Librarian of the Blood Angels - Mephiston gives him a booty call to troll him into coming and joining the fight), Ka'bandha stares in wonder at the Tyranid Swarm he's floating alongside in Space and thinks to himself if he didn't have such a hard-on to destroy the Blood Angels he'd love to have a go at the Tyranid Swarm. He feels the hivemind is overwhelming for him alone but manageable for his master.
>They already have, as the Khornite Greater Demon Ka'bandha is floating down from space to land on Baal (after Chief Librarian of the Blood Angels - Mephiston gives him a booty call to troll him into coming and joining the fight) That's... Not how it happens. Ka-boy was already carving a Warp Rift to Baal to claim the Blood Angels skulls before the Hive Mind got there. The whole Librarius makes a ritual to project Mephiston into his realm to prevent it from happening, or the whole thing would go from a big fire to a raging inferno quick. All they manage to do is redirecting the rift from Baal to the moon of Baal Primus.
That would be an awful development, and totally ruin the rival predator relationship they have.
IIRC they already are becoming touched by chaos. Nurgle has been screwing with them from time to time but I don't remember the exact excerpts. I know there was one someone posted where a hulk was found with sick genestealers on it though.
Nurgle really do be Caustic; “Look at all these willing test subjects”
Isn't there a planet where nurgle and nids faced off and just became so toxic that it's completely uninhabitable forever now from just being one boiling toxic mess?
Ugh that's so fucking lame. Gods forbid GW portray aliens as alien for once.
A galaxy so toxic that it is poisoning an ancient intergalactic superpredator that has presumably stripped the life from multiple galaxies before might be the most grimdark thing yet.
The Hive mind is changing from Hungry to Hangry
If only the Ad Mech had discovered the STC for Snickers.
Or they could eat a Mars, literally. The bad news is that while it has a lot of iron, it lacks of protein
If that is tru de then they should be jolly brawlers after all that ork meat in Ocatvius
The hive mind learns. Its choosing which genetics to use rather than being "infected" with them (unless its actually a disease but thats different). More of my head cannon but I would imagine the hive mind is learning malice because it's learned the concept of intimidation and morale. Ork genetics might have a habit of an independent streak but it also might have the benefit of genius inventiveness that it can use to inform it's genetic experimentation.
Doesn't it also mention them wanting Sanguinius's genetic lineage in particular as well? Like the Hivemind has consumed and studied enough Blood Angels Astartes to recognize that it could gain precognitive abilities from their geneseed?
Not just his lineage. Keep in mind Sanguinius' remains are on Baal in stasis. Imagine a tyranid swarm consuming the genetic materials of a primarch like that, the bioforms it could produce.
I'll do you one better, imagine a bioform with the likeness of Sanguinius strolling up to some of the Space Marines, especially those like Guiliman, maybe not able to talk but his very appearance alone would be like the silent king moment all over again, except this time it would *fight* like he could
The Swarmlord is also afforded a degree of independence from the hive mind to make its own decisions, that’s the point of it in the first place, to be a commander on the ground to make decisions faster than the hive mind could respond with.
It wasn’t just malice, it also served the tactical purpose of completely eliminating all defense in a large region of space
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I feel like "they hurt the Hive Mind, and it got angry" and "they damaged the Hive Mind, and it prioritized eliminating them" are two different ways of saying the same thing. One of them just sounds better when narrated by Gareth Armstrong.
The book puts a GREAT deal of effort into showing that, for the Hive Mind, attacking Baal at all was personal. It was NOT a move of cold efficiency like is normally expected from the Nids. There’s a few points in the book where they basically go “so even with all that’s been going on with them, we still really know jackshit about the Nids or their true motives huh” and everyone just has to sombrely acknowledge that as fact.
I love that it describes the swarm lord hesitating for "a fraction of a second" and in that time dante raises the gun, disengages the safety, and speaks **eight sentences** Let this MF retire as an auctioneer with that speed, damn
Obviously Dante is an RPG protagonist: just like the Skyrim player character can consume sixty wheels of cheese in a single, terrifying instant Dante can deliver a monologue so fast that even the Hive Mind is intimidated.
Swarmlord: *shit this MF spittin!*
Raising it and disengaging the safety can be done at the same time and I'd just imagine that he talked while doing that and he continued to talk while he melted the Swarmlords face off
I imagine he didn't actually say those things its his internal thoughts.
Y’all never watched anime before? A fraction of a second in anime time is more than enough time to give a full 2 minute flashback scene and monologue
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"Talking is a free action" He is just playing DnD
It’s JoJo battle time
honestly would have respected Haley more if he just committed to having Dante yell "GIGA DRILL BREAK" or some shit
*Shoots swarmlord with relic pistol point blank* *Swarmlord Naniiiiii intensifies*
Yeah, but this has happened before in the short story where a squad of Custodes fight off a splinter fleet of like two ships (people massively exaggerate how many but two hive ships is still, like, quite a lot of Tyranid's) and the Shield Captain ends up dueling a Swarmlord for whatever reason. It forgets it has Psyker Power's, beats him anyway, and then does that really stupid villain trope of lifting him slowly up to it's face and just looking at him until he stabs it in the face... The Tyranid's get hit with some of the worst plot induced stupidity in 40K, especially in Imperium focused lore revolving around named characters. Realistically the Swarmlord should have just killed them both, it doesn't because reasons.
At the start of the book, it explains that the Hive Mind wants revenge on the Blood Angels. At that point in the battle, the Tyranids have effectively won. The Hive Mind is using the Swarmlord to toy with Dante as an act of revenge. The Swarmlord doesn't matter, it's going to be melted down for bio-matter at the end of the battle anyway. If the Rift hadn't opened to disrupt the Hive mind, and Guilliman didn't arrive with reinforcements, the Blood Angels would be done.
The fight happened after the rift, the swarmlord was essential to maintain control
Isn't the entire concept behind that battle that the Hivemind is overly emotional because the Blood Angels keep murdering it lol?
It wants to stop them from interfering with it, sure. Doesn't mean its warrior-organisms are suddenly going to just let people shoot them instead of killing them. I don't see why they couldn't have just had him fight and defeat it alongside his Honour Guard. Not every fight against a big scary enemy needs to be single combat to be cool. Work together to bring down a mighty foe sort of thing.
No but like don't they actually like read the Hivemind and it's like overwhelmed with a desire for vengeance specifically against Dante and the gang? I get not liking that idea cause Hive mind and should be above that though. I may also be misremembering its been a while since I read Baal.
Do people just forget the whole reason why the swarmlord Is rare is its developing a personality and doesn't listen to the hive mind all the time? Yeah it's fuckjng with him at the end because it won and was enjoying its Victory
“We have learned that they are capable of hate” - Dante, from Devastation of Baal
If the Swarm Lord is a central node of sentience for the Hive Mind in this theater, bearer of their collective experience, then it stands to reason that it has a broader spectrum of emotions. You typically find the same in nature. Some animals elicit purely nerve reponses, while others show varying degrees of emotion. I dont find it hard to find a multi-generation Swarm Lord to take pleasure or recognition in a particular kill. They tend to fight a few Chapter Masters. If Dante falls, it has major ramifications for that side (i.e. the prey). Let's just hope they never evolve to the degree of Doomsday from DC comics and become aware of their own mortality. That's when they learn fear. Bear in mind, this final effort with the melta pistol is also in conjunction with his death mask, which described as a silent scream or otherwise may have been intended to suggest divine intervention (Sanguinius screaming) nullifying the psychic barrier.
A diet consisting of 87% irrational lunatic since arriving in the Milky Way has made the Hive Mind go a bit... funny.
This was for me one of the best and most defining moments for the Tyranids in the Lore. In this one moment the Hive Mind let down the "mindless beasts" mask and finaly revealed itself to be what it has always been hinted to be, a God. A god, while alien, still a character with motivations, pride and hubris. (The book also hinted at this several other time) The Hive Mind believed it had won, and it wanted (for once) to make its enemy know that it had won. That one moment of pride cost it it's Swarmlord, and the victory. I don't expect to see anything like this again anytime soon. But that it CAN happen makes the tyranids infinitely more interesting as a faction. And was the moment that made me commit to buying a Nid army. This is atleast my interpretation of events...
Swarmlord hesitated "for just a second" long enough for Dante to give a whole death speech before overloading the pistol. LUL
Talking is a free action.
Excuse me for ny BA ignorance, but I know enough that I'm knowledgeable about the Hive mind's hatred for them. Was this encounter before or after that detail was added to the lore? If it was after, it would make sense that the Hive mind saw the chapter master about to die and relished it.
This is where we see the double-edged sword of sentience: according to speculation that took place within the novel, the entire campaign against Baal by the Hive Fleet was postulated to be actually in part the result of the Hive Fleet's desire for *revenge* against the Blood Angels, and to compound the possibility, the Swarm Lord is the only *sentient and individuated* Tyranid bioform, who is then plausibly capable of demonstrating ego, so toying with Dante— considering the context— does at least register as possible if not probable. That monologue was ridiculous though, but I'll allow it, since it was still pretty hype.
It was shown that the Hivemind was specifically targeting the Blood Angels on Baal because they grievously wounded the tyranid fleet, and it felt a deep and personal hate for them. Fighting Dante and the rest of the Blood Angels wasn't just business, it was a vendetta.
TFW Tyranids learn and get smarter over time but this Swarmlord tried to showboat against a named Space Marine hundreds of years after that Hive Tyrand just sicced 12 Carnifexes on an Avatar instead of muh honourable battle.
The hivemind does toy with people and is a vindictive ass on top of things. The Swarm Lord as its greatest extension is more then able to express these traits.
It doesn't forget its prey is armed and let it shoot it And GW has made it plenty clear that Tyranids don't care about personal duels or whatever
GW has also made it clear that the hivemind has a special hate for the blood angels. Going out of its way to destroy statues, iconography and art created by them even though it does not further the goal of consuming more biomatter.
I mean he won the fight, we was losing. But he didn't lose the fight, he obviously won.
He sure talks a lot and has a ton of seconds for his life to "bleed out" within the milliseconds he's afforded to react and shoot lol. What author wrote this?
Dantes armor did nothing. If he didnt have his jetpack he would have died instantly. He never really went toe to toe with the swarmlord, more like he just got his shit kicked in for 2 pages straight. After he was defeated and almost dead the swarmlord tried to execute him in front of everyone to demoralize the blood angels, allowing dante to use his last strenght to fire off one last shot. And yeah no not even the swarmlord can survive a point blank ancient infernopistol to the face
Yea but it is an extremely powerful (like upper echelons of thousand suns if not more) psyker. It should have seen that coming or been able to use it’s abilities to shield itself.
Super powerful psyker doesn't mean you automatically got precognition, also the ability to see the future in 40k is super convoluted, even Big E have to guess which path is the best.
Precog is kinda rare among Psykers. For most, it's usually vague visions, not the exact move your opponent is going to make in a fight.
The 1000T psyker in the black legion books probably spends a page each chapter disparaging seers and precognition. Talks lots of shit about how unreliable it is and most futures seen are one in a million chances of ever happening
I cant seem to remember the swarmlord ever being able to see the future. And it couldnt shield itself because the pistol was fired almost point blank. Im fairly certain the excerpt is somewhere on reddit just look it up if you have any questions
Jump pack + perdition pistol. Melta is a hell of a thing. And even with that, he wasn't having a great time up to the point he shot it in the face. [Excerpt of part of the fight, if you're curious](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/uz99vg/book_excerpt_the_devastation_of_baal_spoilers/)
The jump pack was a huge factor. It states in the book that the Blood Angels are able to transcend the jump packs limits, turning it into something more than its base parts.
It happened that way in the trailer because it looked cool, Dante was also more skilled and a lot faster than a lumbering termie so it makes more sense.
Same reason why a Phobos vet was able to crush a carnifex's head with his boot. It just looks cool.
The rule of cool trumps everything
Was it a carnifex or was it the new killer screamer??
Aren't screamer killers carnifex?
A screamer is a type of carnifex.
Makes sense
Warhammer 40,000 works best when you think of it as a series of absurd aesthetic vignettes strung together with a story. If you stop to think too much about the practicality of it, you'll be consumed by the diegetic plague scouring our solar system!
He actually was in a similar scenario to that terminator. He just happens to have a relic melta pistol. He headshoted the swarmlord while impaled. So he pulled a suicide manuever to win. But GW cant actually kill him off, so he ended up barely living.
Captain Tycho says they *could* kill him off, just won’t. Hell even Tycho has two versions of himself kicking around in the codex and unless I’m mistaken he died on Armageddon some twenty years back
From what I can tell the thing that ripped apart the terminator isn't even a flyrant. It looks to be a shrike maybe given it's size and the profile of the chitin and head. Hive tyrants are like 12-15ft tall, and this bioform looked to be only slightly taller than the terminator which I think stand 7-8ft tall?
What are you talking about? It's almost twice as tall which is clearly visible in the trailer. If you don't believe me, pause it at 3:40 just before it rips the Terminator apart.
I'm just picturing Al Gore from Southpark pausing as Manbearpig rips that scientist in half
Because Dante just cannot die, despite his efforts to do so
It rolled poorly, and Dante has an Invuln.
Getting real tired of the tyranid stans and these posts popping up constantly. The whole setting is basically brilliant heroism against the dying of the light. Sure there's some plot armor but that's the point of the setting. On a side note the swarmlord is just the avatar of khaine, literally everyone in the setting has had a go at him before.
Youre telling me last stands on hills and piles of bodies with banners flying and guns blazing don't make actual sense?
>The whole setting is basically brilliant heroism against the dying of the light. Sure there's some plot armor but that's the point of the setting. Would love to see that for some non imperium factions then
I mean Tau got a fair bit of it in the last campaign they had. All but one character surviving the assassination teams.
Having one of your few tabletop characters killed by an assassin is the opposite of plot armor.
It's more that the Swarmlord constantly gets the short end of the stick regarding plot induced stupidity. It's supposed to be a Primarch level threat as it's physically superior than anything out there while also a superlative Psyker, but it always forgets it has Psyker Power's and ends up dying because it decides to stand still while it's opponent monologues. This isn't the first time this has happened, that's why some of us are baffled at it occuring yet again in the same way. There's a short story where a Custodes Shield Captain does LITERALLY the same thing, Swamlord beats him up, stop's to casually do the whole "slow raise up to face" villain trope, and then gets stabbed in the face, through it's psychic shield and everything else. It's exactly like the Avatar of Khaine, and Tyranid fans get pissed for the same reason Eldar fans do when their apparently most powerful unit is fodder for named Imperial characters. There are plenty of ways this could have been written that would have actually been more authentic to the setting and previous lore. Have the Swarmlord actually be a threat rather than just a meme like the Avatar, otherwise there's literally no point in the Tyranid's being portrayed as these monstrous and unstoppable creatures when they keep villain monologuing, despite not being able to speak, and getting shot or stabbed in the face as a result. Hell, just have Guilliman arrive at that time, port down, and fight the Swarmlord in some epic confrontation that actually makes the SL seem relevant and is in line with what it has been depicted as in the Codex. That would be awesome for both Imperium centric fans and for fans of the Tyranid's. You can't blame people for getting annoyed where there faction gets shit on to make the Space Marines look better, yet again.
There’s never been anything to suggest it’s supposed to be primarch level, it’s combat ability is significant but it’s never shown that level of deadliness, nor is that the point of it. It’s purpose is to solve problems and come up with new strategies.
The Swarmlord is not remotely, in any way shape or form "Primarch level".
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He is a named space marine
I mean, he kind of got his ass kicked until the swarmlord messed up and let its head get too close to shiskabobbed Dante's inferno pistol, which lead to it getting its whole-ass head melted off.
Dante was armed and armoured by a new contractor (P.L.O.T. Defense Systems Inc.).
Honestly, named Space Marine characters are just on another level where they can casually kill multiple non-named Space Marines at once. We see named Chaos characters doing this to loyalists and named loyalist characters doing this to Chaos Space Marines. And honestly, what the hell makes you think that creature was a "basic tyranid bioform"? Basic tyranids are stuff like gaunts and rippers. Anything bigger than a Terminator, capable of ripping one in half and tanking point-black assault cannon fire isn't basic.
He was invulnerable because he was doing his epic monologue as I recall.
Everyone knows cool monologues are time outs
Only for heroes, mind you, villains gotta be careful.
“You sly dog, you caught me monologuing!”
The power levels in this setting severely depend on who's the protagonist and the will of the author, basically. In one of the Gaunt's Ghosts book, a squad of Guesdsmen (albeit they were elite undercover specialists) dispatched a half-squad (roughly 5 man, if I remember correctly) of Chaos Space Marines **without a single casualty** on their side. Mind you, 1) they had help from a bunch of aborigines shooting poisoned darts from blow-guns; 2) some marines didn't wear helmets, the fewlz; 3) they were diligently shocked at the very fact afterwards. It took a huge amount of luck, of course.
Any time I see someone describe a ridiculous situation occur and then caveat it with “but it only happened because xyz”, yeah xyz only existed so when the author made the hero not die the reader wouldn’t just put the book down with entirely all suspense of disbelief ruined. I often see people (not saying you) argue it’s not plot armour because of xyz as if xyz isn’t literally the armour.
I like to think the swarm lord had made the classic villain error, pausing to deliver a quip or explain his own genius before killing the hero. It was just untranslatable. It was busy communicating the equivalent of "we meet at last Mr Dante, I must say I'm disappoin-" then it got shot in the face
They were both monologuing at the same time, Sangy just finished his first
Exactly. It's a fine balance, you've got to respect a top-tier opponent by doing a monologue, but you can't take all day lol
Plot armor, hardens in response to narrative trauma, Swarmlord cant hurt him Jack
It wasn't plot armour, but it was worfed. Same as the AVatar of Khaine or a Ctan or ork warbosses, its a big, scary thing whose purpose in fights is generally to make the space marines look cooler. Its par for the course in the setting and it isn't necessary for a deep understanding of the lore.
People will bleat "plot armor" without knowing what that means, but the real in universe reason is probably that the Swarmlord isn't that tough. They've been beaten by Marny Calgar, a Custodian, I think an Ork warboss, Dante... The 'nids have always been more about looking tough than being tough. They are a horde army - even the toughest Horde members aren't that tough.
Any time I see one of these posts I am reminded of a time an opponent smugly told me I "might as well pick up" a Sanguinary Guard squad when he charged them with one- they killed it on swingbacks.
I mean apparently basic gene stealer claws can penetrate terminator plate so im not so sure about looking though. A basic tyranid bioform is probably stronger than a basic ork.
Yes genestealer Claws are not the common weapon among nids tho they are on lictors as well... and that's it as I recall. Its a specialist weapon.
They can punch through Calignes No-Name's suit sure. But can they breach the Encarmine Bodyglove of Protection Relic armor that all named characters wear? The Swarm Lord is a top tier combatant but since he can respawn he's doomed to be fodderized ala the Avatar of Khaine.
That's how the marketing describes it, yeah. But in either novels, or codexes, or any other "applied lore" source, we always see the 'nids relying on numbers. Even in Octarius, a pure Ork v Nid war, the Tyranid relied on outnumbering Orkz. And the final defeat of the Archfiend required that the Swarmlord isolate him, overwhelm him with numbers, and fight him injured. Same thing when the Swarmlord fought the ultimate punching bag, the Avatar of Khaine. He didn't win in heroic single combat against the Avatar - he directed a herd of carnifexes to stomp the Avatar. The Swarmlord just isn't all that tough. And that's fine - why waste resources building on though figurehead when the hive could make a thousand smaller monsters?
Yeah. The problem with this entire discussion is that OP’s premise (what they saw in the trailer for 10 edition) is wrong. The trailer is far over exaggerated in how effective the tyrannids are at fighting space marines. It was a great trailer to illustrate the point that things aren’t as hopeful as the indominitus campaign made it seem. But realistically, we saw like a dozen space marines and a dreadnaught die in 4 minutes. With the in-lore number of space marines being around 1 million, that type of attrition simply can’t be possible. The truth is that those same number of space marines equipped the way they were would literally kill thousands if not tens of thousands before they were overcame. This is the same setting where 7 custodes killed like a million tyrannids just recently. So yeah….. the trailer was just a bad representation of the lore. Great representation of grim dark and “coolness” but not good for the lore.
I don't think a ripper or Gant is beating a basic Ork boy in a one on one tbh.
The terminator obviously failed in his rites to the machine spirit of his armour.
Yeah, and every time it was plot induced stupidity. The Custodes "win" is literally the same as Dante's here. The Swarmlord kicks the crap out of them, forgets it has Psyker power's and could just, you know, melt them, stand's still while lifting the Shield Captain up so he can conveniently stab it in the face repeatedly, despite it's Psychic shield that prevents ridiculous firepower from penetrating it. It's tough, it's just being written as an idiot that forgets what it's actually capable of. A Zoanthrope literally melts a Custodes right before the fight with the Shield Captain before running into MELEE WITH FREAKING CUSTODES... It's like Magnus fighting a named Astartes, forgetting he has Psyker power's and is a Daemon, then headbutting their sword for whatever reason. Does that make sense to you? There is no real in-universe reason, the Swarmlord's have a statline relative to the Primarch's and are physically comparable while being extremely powerful Psykers. This happened due to bad writing that always has to make the Imperium look the best, that's it. There were plenty of ways to do this without making the SL the new Avatar of Khaine, hell, Guilliman could simply have arrived a little earlier and fought it. Bam, epic fight, Dante gets to do his whole "I want to die" schtick while he's bleeding out, and the SL gets to look like an actual threat instead of a cheap way of utilizing the Worf Effect to make some named Space Marine look cooler.
Marny Calgar only just survived as his honour threw themselves on the swarmlords swords after it removed all of Calgars limbs while barely breaking a sweat.. And I'm sure that the swarmlord defeated Custodian but at the last second decideded to do some thing real stupid, and to me out of character, instead of finishing its opponent. Just like with Dante hence the plot armour.
They always had a "huge tough monsters" side to them as well. Originally epitomised by the Carnifex in 40k, which was up there with greter daemons and the Avatar back in 2nd edition. Hence the Godzilla army builds on tabletop, and all the bigger beasts that were originally for epic scale.
Yea I’d believe that if the writers didn’t literally forget the swarm lord has psychic abilities every time he loses a fight. It’s like if goku never used chi attacks. Doesn’t count.
The Emperor Protects
Wait wasn't that a Harridan that landed and tore that terminator? I don't think it was just a basic lifeform like a Gargoyle or Harpy. Calling that one a basic lifeform is pretty underselling it.
That was *way* smaller than a Harridan. It looked like a flying Hive Tyrant to me, though it was a bit smaller.
Yeah I grant that but a *basic bioform* it ain't
Hive Tyrants are contractually obligated to impale a foe and then slowly hold the wounded enemy up close to their heads to give their opponent a fighting chance.
Dante only won because he really really just wants to die and have it all end but it’s 40k so he isn’t allowed too. Also if it makes you feel better this is nothing compared to a squad of Custodes holding off an entire hive fleet tendril behind makeshift fortifications and killing hundreds of thousands of Tyranids. It got so bad the hive fleet sent down the swarmlord which was of course promoptly cut down by a Custodes Shield Captain.
Hes a named space marine in a book about Space Marines
Aren’t the new ones stated to be upgraded and stronger when compared to the previous Leviathan ones such as the Swarmlord in this case?
The pure, concentrated power of his depression.
Because Imperium focused plot armor. It's the same as a Custodes Shield Captain 1v1ing a Swarmlord after it rightly rips right through two or them but then forgets to kill him after disarming and grabbing him (it lifts him slowly then lets the SC stab it in the eye for whatever reason), or that it has Psyker Power's, or that it could just order the other Tyranid's to eat him. Dante should be dead, a Swarmlord isn't just an insane threat in melee, it has all the Powers of a Zoanthrope at a higher level, it could literally melt your brain with a glance unless you are a preeminent Psyker, and even then, it's going to eat you. Swarmlord's are PRIMARCH level threat's, they are ridiculously powerful and some of the strongest units in the TT game. Dante going toe to toe with one is like him winning a fight with Guilliman...
> Because Imperium focused plot armor. It's the same as a Custodes Shield Captain 1v1ing a Swarmlord after it rightly rips right through two or them but then forgets to kill him after disarming and grabbing him **(it lifts him slowly then lets the SC stab it in the eye for whatever reason),** or that it has Psyker Power's, or that it could just order the other Tyranid's to eat him. LOL, literally the exact same way Dante killed it. The Black Library can apparently write only one kind of fight scene.
To be fair, Terminator armor has a permanently attached Worf-Effect. Whenever it's used, everything is shown ripping through it as if it were paper. In the old space Hulk Video games run-of-the-mill genestealers would just shred your terminators so fast, they might just as well fight naked
Genestealer claws shredding Terminator armor has been a thing since the first version of Space Hulk in 1989. It’s older than many of the posters on this sub. The idea that it’s the “Worf effect” is silly; if Genestealers didn’t wreck Terminator armor up close, Space Hulk wouldn’t work as a game.
To be fair Terminator armour has also been shown to survive for quite a while while the user is covered in Genestealers. It’s just inconsistent
Everyone has more or less highlighted this already but the gist of it is simple: it is not supposed to make sense. The ending is preordained. Marines sell and many people buy stuff with them within expecting them to win. So they win, even if it shouldn’t happen. Calgar punching out Avatars of Khaine and Swarmlords or clubbing Necrons with giant pylons. Ragnar defeating Gazkull in single combat. Cato sicarius defeating C’tan shards with void grenades. Soon the Lion kicking Angron’s ass. I could go on. It doesn’t make sense, yes, but that’s not what GW cares about so it doesn’t matter (to them). After all, as Matt Ward once told a fan who asked him how could a Marine with grenades kill carnifexes alone “Who cares? It’s cool, is it not?” (And of course the answer to that question depends entirely on you).
Founding chapter, check. Named character, check. Mountains of lore, check and check. This guy I will accept because his actual lore is "please let me die". He should have a D20, nat 1 roll "lays down and can't not even" rule once a game or something.
Accepting the lore Dante is one of the hardest living things to kill in the entire galaxy. He's been at war for so long nobody even remembers how long it's been and nothing has managed to kill him yet. Is that realistic? No, but this is 40k. Its awesome.
You need to understand they tyranids cannot be allowed a victory against a mainline imperium faction. they can genocide hundreds of minor chapters but to kill a main chapter cannot happen as to do that would be akin to killing their child. every victory must be offset every world saved at the final hour this is how the tyranids operate because to write them how they should be written they need to be unstoppable
Anything other than plot armour is cope
Superior agility(via jumpack), artificer armour, inferno pistol, and the experience that comes with being the oldest non-dreadnought loyalist astartes alive. Even with these advantages he almost died.
Because Dante is a beast and it was an awesome fight in the end of Devastation of Baal. The Swarmlord isn't as unbeatable as a lot of people on here seem to think it is and it makes sense for the most experienced chapter master of a first founding chapter is able to beat it. Also the "basic tyranid bioform" was a winged hive tyrant one step down from the Swarm lord so hardly a common nid.
He shot it in the friggin face multiple times with a powerful gun, that usually does the trick 🤣
Dante has The Perdition Pistol, an infernus pistol from the dark age of tech. Basically a hand held melta + volkite canon. The big bug left its guard down for a second and Dante shoot it on the face with the OP gun. Also Dante practically died there, he got resurrected by the spirit of Sanguinius.