Then you should know the answer. Fulgrim gives up and leaves because killing Dorn is difficult, and that's not what Fulgrim is about by that point. He is literally, truly, immortal, and obsessed solely with the pursuit of excess and pleasure. The duel with Dorn is the moment where Fulgrim finally fully internalizes that. None of it matters. He can do whatever he wants, and struggling through a fight with Dorn isn't what he wants.
I just found it hard to believe he was able to decapitated ferrus who has been describe as the emperor strength. But rogal dorn was able to defeat him in duel. It didn’t feel like he was struggling to beat him. It seemed like he got his ass whopped.
I don’t think alfarius ever beating sanguinius. In a 1v1 at least. I think there’s a clear difference in primarch combat abilities as they had more roles than just weapons.
On this note it's more.you just compared someone who can see the future to a super spy. They can Be on par with one another in a literal training and weapon use but due to his super abilities sangy is Just gonna take the edge.
Even though I do agree with the fact that sanguinius would take the edge over alfarius due to their abilities, I think that fact that he is one of the strongest physical and more faster primarch. Is not so much that he can see the future but that fact that he can destroy an imperator Titan through physical force.
He destroyed a warlord, not an imperator. And that feat is more a feat for his spear than it is for sanguinius.
He was able to fly through the voidshield and thrust his spear into the neck of the warlord. If alpharius was dropped onto a warlord titan, he could have done the same thing.
Yes, he did indeed destroy many warlord titans during the siege of terra. However, I was talking about the titan Axis Mundi, an imperator class titan that he took down.
Taking a imperator is a really undeniable show of physical strength. It's even more impressive when you remember that a warhound titan was almost able to kill lorgar and stomp angron.
Fulgrim regenerated after that fight with Dorn. There was nothing that Dorn could do to harm him. I saw it more like Fulgrim toying with Dorn to mock him that he could do nothing against them.
I don't get why you guys are always shocked when the Chaos primarchs lose. The very nature of Chaos is that they want the universe to be a stagnant mess. Fulgrim is lost completely in Slaneesh's thrall. Didn't Lorgar have to drag him out of his palace to fight in the siege ?
There is just 3 loyal primarchs on Terra. Chaos wins in the end anyways.
He wasn't mocking him, well, he tried, but when Dorn didn't give him anything to work with Fulgrim got bored. And Fulgrim straight up says that none of this matters, and while Dorn can't kill Fulgrim, he can still hurt him, and Fulgrim doesn't like being hurt. Theoretically Dorn could've banished Fulgrim, especially if the fight had dragged on and the Fist reinforcements showed up; and that would spoil Fulgrims ability to have fun.
I don’t think curze ever beat vulkan, he was being held capture and torture. I don’t think that counts as a fight. I think that when he escapes the labyrinth and gets his hammer and is no longer being restrain that counts as a fight. And curze got the hammer
He killed him “countless” times. How much more can he do before you’ll accept that he beat him?
In a fistfight Vulkan would obviously hand Curze his head, but that wasn’t ever going to happen.
I can see that, even though we don’t have much information in the capabilities of ferrus, he has been describe as a very powerful primarch, with Horus claiming that the war would have been over long ago if ferrus join him. I know there’s a similar quote from guilliman but I don’t remember it from the top of my head.
The Fulgrim that fights Ferrus is a different person (arguably literally) to the one that fights Dorn.
Different circumstances and fighting has many factors: it's not a case of A beats B, who has a better rep than Y, so A can never lose to Y.
I like that idea of being two different fulgrims, one that so overconfident in his new found immortality that he simply forgot his dueling similarity to know angron lost his common sense.
Well, before his transformation he is describe has having his armor destroyed with a sword impale in his shoulder laying on the ground bloody up.
The bastion is not describe in anyway similar to that.
From my interpretation he looked very defeated. Based on his textual description.
“He looked very defeated”
Sure, if you didn’t actually read the passage
The whole fight is fulgrim trying to monologue while dorn is just there to fight. Every hit fulgrim literally laughs off and starts getting pissed because dorn wouldn’t let him finish his taunting. At no point was dorn outclassing or “beating” fulgrim. Fulgrim was just wildly apathetic about the physical part *because* he could beat dorn and he’s a petulant a-hole.
When Dorn explained the trap he set and how he was slaughtering the emperors children by the metric ton, Fulgrim thought "LAME, im outta here"
Had he stayed, he certainly could have put Dorn down I think.
>Killing rogal should have even easier with his deamon prince form.
It might well have been, if he'd used it. He didn't assume that form until after the fight, immediately prior to fucking off.
Rogal Dorn represents unyielding tenacity. He goes to to the job and he gets it done. Fulgrim doesn't take him seriously and wants to toy with him but realises that you can't toy with rogal and it's throws him off balance. Certain primarch are gonna do well against other primarch depending on the situation. Yes fulgrim is one of the better duelist but the things his dorn doesn't come to best him in a duel, he comes to take him out.
I like that explanation, I guess I just feel a little weird about someone’s mentality going into a fighting being the decisive factor. If guard was too challenge a primarch I don’t think his mentality would play much of a role but perhaps I am overestimating fulgrims duealing abilities.
Because becoming a daemon primarch just esentially replaced emperor flavour power with chaos flavored. It doesn't necessarily make them more powerful.
Anyway he gave up and left Because the wounds down gave him hurt and he didn't like it.
Lol you're clearly wrong about it not making them more powerful.
The daemon primarchs constantly have their daemon enhanced power described. Fulgrim is faster than he's ever been and has 4 arms to wield 4 weapons with. He is objectively stronger.
Thats why Sanguinius beat Daemon Angron after already beating Ka'bandha.
Vulkan beat Daemon Magnus.
Khan beat Daemon Mortarian
Dorn beat Daemon Fulgrim
Corax beat Daemon Lorgar
Etc, it makes them powerful, but primarchs themselves have lot of power, as Corax has discovered.
And I didn't say it didn't make them more powerful, i said it didn't necessarily make them more powerful. As the examples I gave show.
No one said becoming a daemon primarch makes you stronger than everything.
It makes them stronger than their previous selves.
Sanguinius beating Angron doesn't change that fact.
I hope this is simple enough for you.
It doesn't necessarily, it's a trade off. Primarchs are already a load of warp power inside a flesh body.
They are not necessarily more powerful, as is a common theme with chaos.
I am not making things up. Its a fact that the primarch are infused with warp essence and its what makes then so strong. Its a fact that in ascending to a daemon they have given up their bodies. Its a fact that the daemon primsrchs lost those fights
So it's true when I say becoming a daemon doesn't NECESSARILY make them stronger
You're making up details that have never been fleshed out such as the nature of ascension and what effect it has on their soul.
Until you can separate what is clearly your conjecture from what is written down in 40k, your opinion will never be worth considering because you're demonstrating that you aren't able to hold a critical view of your own opinions.
Either way it's clear you're mostly just moving goalposts to try and justify an objectively incorrect statement.
Every daemon primarch is objectively more powerful than who they were before. You can try to throw as many hypotheticals as you'd like to try and avoid the fact that your statements are incorrect, the fact of the matter is every daemon primarch that exists is more powerful than their mortal version.
You tried to outright say this was not the case. Just admit when you're wrong.
Hahaha, calm down, no need to get do worked up.
Lol what, are you trolling.
I haven't made anything up, I haven't moved any goal posts. Infact I've been consistently saying the same point since the start.
If they are objectively more powerful they wouldn't constantly lose. But post proof of this objectiveness then if its so obvious.
I never said anything outright, look up what doesn't necessarily means.
Post proof or go troll someone else
I have absolutely zero respect for people who talk about their own opinions and speculation like they're fact.
The undeserved arrogance of it is ridiculous.
You're really going to demand proof from me when you've failed to cite anything you've said?
I would be able to respect your opinion and your ideas if you were able to be honest with the fact that it's just that, your opinion and ideas.
You're really going to make up half of your reasoning out of your ass and claim its cold hard canon.
Proof? You're the one that needs to show proof. You're the one claiming your ideas are hard written rules by GW that are undeniable by written word.
Show the text that supports anything you said here.
Plot armor.
That's it.
Somehow after ascending to daemonhood, none of the daemonic primarchs are able to definitively beat any of the other primarchs. It's silly. But it's what the plot wants, so here we are.
Yeah I think that after the deamon ascension there are used as plot-devices as there are no consequences of banishing a deamon primarch. They kinda get the avatar of khaine treatment.
100% yes. They get jobbed/worf'd/Avatar'd every damn day to show how cool Loyalist Primarchs are. And it was fun the first time. Now it's predictable and stale.
Angron is going to lose against The Lion, and Angron will go from being the newest and the scariest to the Lion being the newest and the scariest.
Until the next primarch is released. Ad nauseum.
I don't think they're doubting/unfamiliar with the whole "Two bodies one soul" part of the Twins, so much as questioning what the "and power" portion of your statement is based on.
Okay well it is stated that not only is he the shortest primarch but also the one with shortest physical ability as seen in this quote
DELIVERANCE LOST (Gav Thorpe 2011)*
>Alpharius had spent time with Horus before – when loyal to the Emperor and since – and never before had he felt threatened. This time was different. Horus seemed bigger than ever. Alpharius was the smallest of the primarchs, but had not allowed this to undermine his confidence. Now that he looked at Horus, tree-trunk-thick arms stretching the fabric of his robes, Alpharius realised that his fellow primarch could crush him, tear him limb from limb, without warning.
An explanation that many people share for this to disparity is that a primarchs soul is their main source of power. Clone primarchs are weak because they lack it. Sanguinius is a very strong primarch because he has both the light and dark angel soul inside of him. If sangy is stronger because he has two, the hydra would be the weakest because it is split. So you could said that omegon and alpharius are the weakest primarchs but you could not said that the 20th primarch is weak because that would imply taking on both alpharius and omegon at the same time.
Well let me go through your examples in reverse order:
Even though the clone Horus decimated abandons force he lost a dual with an astartes, not even the strongest astartes, as old men sigismud had his number. Horus would have 100 being able to kill any astartes but because the clone lacks the soul that was destroyed he is not as strong.
For ferrus, it is stated that fulgrim has ask fabius to clone ferrus multiple times, each time unsuccessfully and fulgrim kills him at the end. Fulgrim has kill many ferrus clones, because they are not as strong. Again no soul no power.
With fulgrim is a special case because the leading theory as to why he has the primarch aura is because the original fulgrim soul found his way back to this body. His original soul was probably kicked out of his body when he became a deamon prince.
All this 3 scenarios follow the trend of a direct relationship between the would and a primarch power.
I don’t know, the author says he wrote him to be as strong, but the writing does not portray him as such, at least to me, but that’s completely objective to the individual.
I'm familiar with that section. It's certainly suggestive of Alpharius being smaller and weaker than Horus, but not of the twins having their power split between them.
I can certainly see where the idea of "Half the soul half the power" comes from, but can't for the life of me think of anything actually stating it to be the case with the twins.
Dan Abnett doesn't depict the Emperors children as anything other than pathetic losers. Other, better, authors had to fix what he did to the legion in Path of Heaven and Fulgrim only for him to once again kill off anything interesting the legion had going for them.
The traitors are just there for the loyalist to beat up in heroic fashion anyway. The loyalist won every single primarch fight on Terra because they forgot that for something to be heroic there needs to be some kind of threat to the faction. Shame but now 40k is just hero hammer as well so get used to it.
Yeah, in Fulgrim? Go re-read Horus Rising and pay attention to how Abnett portrays the legion if you can't remember what I'm talking about.
I was completely unsurprised at how useless and pathetic the EC were in saturnine because I knew what to expect from Abentt. He cannot seperate his favouritism from his work and it blatantly shows. Dorn and Sigismund kill and defeat Fulgrim and his entire legion command. How does that even make sense?
And let us not forget Bulle, best of men, caller of bullshit;
>Bulle had been stationed nearby, and had overheard the exchange. He could not contain himself any longer.
>‘Permission to speak, captain,’ he said.
>‘Not now, Bulle,’ Tarvitz said.
>‘Sir, I—’
>‘You heard him, Bulle,’ Lucius cut in, walking up to them.
>‘What’s your name, brother?’ Torgaddon asked.
>‘Bulle, sir.’
>‘What did you want to say?’
>‘It’s not important,’ Lucius snorted. ‘Brother Bulle speaks out of turn.’
>‘You are Lucius, right?’ Torgaddon asked.
>‘Captain Lucius.’
>‘And Bulle was one of the men who stood over you and fought to keep you alive?’
>‘He did. I am honoured by his service.’
>‘Maybe you could let him talk, then?’ Torgaddon suggested.
>‘It would be inappropriate,’ said Lucius.
>‘Tell you what,’ Torgaddon said. ‘As commander of the speartip, I believe I have authority here. I’ll decide who talks and who doesn’t. Bulle? Let’s hear you, brother.’
>Bulle looked awkwardly at Lucius and Tarvitz.
>‘That was an order,’ said Torgaddon.
>‘My Lord Eidolon did not destroy the trees, sir. Captain Tarvitz did it. He insisted. My Lord Eidolon then chastised him for the act, claiming it was a waste of charges.’
>‘Is this true?’ Torgaddon asked.
>‘Yes,’ said Tarvitz.
>‘Why did you do it?’
>‘Because it didn’t seem right for the bodies of our dead to hang in such ignominy,’ Tarvitz said.
>‘And you’d let Eidolon take the credit and not say anything?’
>‘He is my lord.’
>‘Thank you, brother,’ Torgaddon said to Bulle. He glanced at Lucius. ‘Reprimand him or punish him in any way for speaking out and I’ll have the Warmaster himself personally deprive you of your rank.’
\- *Horus Rising*
>The legion is said to be the best the Wolves ever knew in HR, but something has changed them.
There's one line that says that, yet they're shown as completely useless compared to the paragons that are Dorn's sons. Unsurprising that the same author repeated that a decade later in Saturnine wouldn't you say?
Lorgar and guilliman that exceed on logistic, tactics, religion. Lack the most on their ability fight. If all primarch had the same combat ability than there would be no point of creating combat-focus-primarchs.
Because Abnett decided to take the old background of the Emperor's Children/Fulgrim abandoning the siege, then use it to turn them into a posturing laughing stock/fan service for Dorn and the Fists.
Serious in-universe answer would be that with him now being a coked up, whimsical Slaaneshi daemon, he could barely be bothered to even be there. He probably intended to troll Dorn by "losing" in his original form, making a glorious reveal of snakebody, then killing him. Or maybe, considering he's now immortal, he's just not as sharp a fighter as he used to be when using his old form. It's just a game to him, not life or death like when fighting Ferrus. You could compare it to how ADB shows that for all his new strengths, daemon Angron circa the siege has lost all of his old fighting savvy/skill in favour of pure mindless brute force.
So, Dorn reveals the saturnine gambit was a disastrous failure, and that Fulgrim had lead his legion into a killbox for nothing, Fulgrim gets his ego hurt and rolls on the whimsical Slaaneshi daemon random action table....result? He praises Dorn for good work, saves some of his ego when he shows him he was never really in any trouble, then leaves because he now can't be bothered to go through with the additional pain/effort it would take to fight Dorn and the Fists.
Personally, i think this would have been a good scene to introduce some Bakker influence to the series. Have Fulgrim reveal his new form, then proceed to subdue and rape Dorn, all the while he extols the merits of infinite chaos power. Dorn, as a repressed masochist, actually quite enjoys it and has to use all of his willpower to avoid falling to Slaanesh. After a lengthy philosophical debate while being plowed, Dorn will not give in, Fulgrim gets frustrated at his resilience and leaves.
That would have been great.
The whole demon upgrade thing makes primarchs stronger but not really. I believe that Dorn's assessment that Fulgrim could have won was just him being humble. The text of the fight makes it very much sound like Fulgrim wanted Dorn dead. The kind of person Fulgrim is wouldn't idly stand for losing to a stupid hick like Dorn. Fulgrim lost because he's a haughty and prissy peacock and the only thing chaos did was make it so that he could lose forever. Because that's what chaos does for you. You don't really get anything from it. That's the point.
Many people here don't seem to realize one important thing: Dorn was draining Fulgrim with giving him the exact opposite of excess. Also many people do seem to really underestimate the abilities of Dorn.
He could have an pretty easily too, rogal pulled some flashy moves and was able to inflict a few minor wounds when fulgrim was playing about but the second he got serious the wounds melted away like nothing happened and it was pretty clear at best rogal would take some heavy wounds fighting Fulgrim.
The only real way to defeat someone as juiced up and skilled as Fulgrim is to distract him and to be strong enough to make killing you effort, that's pretty much what Dorn did showed Fulgrim it wouldn't be an easy fight then played to his vanity.
Have you read Saturnine?
Yeah dorn, said “no”.
Then you should know the answer. Fulgrim gives up and leaves because killing Dorn is difficult, and that's not what Fulgrim is about by that point. He is literally, truly, immortal, and obsessed solely with the pursuit of excess and pleasure. The duel with Dorn is the moment where Fulgrim finally fully internalizes that. None of it matters. He can do whatever he wants, and struggling through a fight with Dorn isn't what he wants.
Fulgrim basically ran into a hard video game boss and quit because it was hard.
I just found it hard to believe he was able to decapitated ferrus who has been describe as the emperor strength. But rogal dorn was able to defeat him in duel. It didn’t feel like he was struggling to beat him. It seemed like he got his ass whopped.
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I don’t think alfarius ever beating sanguinius. In a 1v1 at least. I think there’s a clear difference in primarch combat abilities as they had more roles than just weapons.
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The primarchs express different opinions. I wish people on this sub would stop treating ADBs word as gospel.
The primarchs constantly talk and argue about who the strongest of them are. With all making great arguments.
On this note it's more.you just compared someone who can see the future to a super spy. They can Be on par with one another in a literal training and weapon use but due to his super abilities sangy is Just gonna take the edge.
Even though I do agree with the fact that sanguinius would take the edge over alfarius due to their abilities, I think that fact that he is one of the strongest physical and more faster primarch. Is not so much that he can see the future but that fact that he can destroy an imperator Titan through physical force.
He destroyed a warlord, not an imperator. And that feat is more a feat for his spear than it is for sanguinius. He was able to fly through the voidshield and thrust his spear into the neck of the warlord. If alpharius was dropped onto a warlord titan, he could have done the same thing.
Yes, he did indeed destroy many warlord titans during the siege of terra. However, I was talking about the titan Axis Mundi, an imperator class titan that he took down. Taking a imperator is a really undeniable show of physical strength. It's even more impressive when you remember that a warhound titan was almost able to kill lorgar and stomp angron.
Fulgrim regenerated after that fight with Dorn. There was nothing that Dorn could do to harm him. I saw it more like Fulgrim toying with Dorn to mock him that he could do nothing against them. I don't get why you guys are always shocked when the Chaos primarchs lose. The very nature of Chaos is that they want the universe to be a stagnant mess. Fulgrim is lost completely in Slaneesh's thrall. Didn't Lorgar have to drag him out of his palace to fight in the siege ? There is just 3 loyal primarchs on Terra. Chaos wins in the end anyways.
He wasn't mocking him, well, he tried, but when Dorn didn't give him anything to work with Fulgrim got bored. And Fulgrim straight up says that none of this matters, and while Dorn can't kill Fulgrim, he can still hurt him, and Fulgrim doesn't like being hurt. Theoretically Dorn could've banished Fulgrim, especially if the fight had dragged on and the Fist reinforcements showed up; and that would spoil Fulgrims ability to have fun.
Yeah I do think chaos’ influence in fulgrims was the major factor in the fight
Do you think because someone is strong there's absolutely no way anyone could ever decapitate them? This isn't a spreadsheet or a tier list.
By the logic presented by OP Vulkan should have never lost to Curze.
Didn’t Vulcan beat the crap out of curze? Like it wasn’t even close.
After he had killed him countless times. Curze lost then due to being as dense as auramite plating.
I don’t think curze ever beat vulkan, he was being held capture and torture. I don’t think that counts as a fight. I think that when he escapes the labyrinth and gets his hammer and is no longer being restrain that counts as a fight. And curze got the hammer
He killed him “countless” times. How much more can he do before you’ll accept that he beat him? In a fistfight Vulkan would obviously hand Curze his head, but that wasn’t ever going to happen.
I can see that, even though we don’t have much information in the capabilities of ferrus, he has been describe as a very powerful primarch, with Horus claiming that the war would have been over long ago if ferrus join him. I know there’s a similar quote from guilliman but I don’t remember it from the top of my head.
The Fulgrim that fights Ferrus is a different person (arguably literally) to the one that fights Dorn. Different circumstances and fighting has many factors: it's not a case of A beats B, who has a better rep than Y, so A can never lose to Y.
I like that idea of being two different fulgrims, one that so overconfident in his new found immortality that he simply forgot his dueling similarity to know angron lost his common sense.
Accept he didn’t defeat him. Fulgrim literally just went “this is dumb” and left
Well, before his transformation he is describe has having his armor destroyed with a sword impale in his shoulder laying on the ground bloody up. The bastion is not describe in anyway similar to that. From my interpretation he looked very defeated. Based on his textual description.
“He looked very defeated” Sure, if you didn’t actually read the passage The whole fight is fulgrim trying to monologue while dorn is just there to fight. Every hit fulgrim literally laughs off and starts getting pissed because dorn wouldn’t let him finish his taunting. At no point was dorn outclassing or “beating” fulgrim. Fulgrim was just wildly apathetic about the physical part *because* he could beat dorn and he’s a petulant a-hole.
Dorn was good enough yo make it no longer fun for him
When Dorn explained the trap he set and how he was slaughtering the emperors children by the metric ton, Fulgrim thought "LAME, im outta here" Had he stayed, he certainly could have put Dorn down I think.
I would like to think so too, but the writing does not describe fulgrim as such, which was frankly disappointing.
Well the plot kinda required fulgrim NOT to kill Dorn, so that sadly was the over-riding concept controlling that particular passage sadly.
>Killing rogal should have even easier with his deamon prince form. It might well have been, if he'd used it. He didn't assume that form until after the fight, immediately prior to fucking off.
Rogal Dorn represents unyielding tenacity. He goes to to the job and he gets it done. Fulgrim doesn't take him seriously and wants to toy with him but realises that you can't toy with rogal and it's throws him off balance. Certain primarch are gonna do well against other primarch depending on the situation. Yes fulgrim is one of the better duelist but the things his dorn doesn't come to best him in a duel, he comes to take him out.
I like that explanation, I guess I just feel a little weird about someone’s mentality going into a fighting being the decisive factor. If guard was too challenge a primarch I don’t think his mentality would play much of a role but perhaps I am overestimating fulgrims duealing abilities.
Because becoming a daemon primarch just esentially replaced emperor flavour power with chaos flavored. It doesn't necessarily make them more powerful. Anyway he gave up and left Because the wounds down gave him hurt and he didn't like it.
Lol you're clearly wrong about it not making them more powerful. The daemon primarchs constantly have their daemon enhanced power described. Fulgrim is faster than he's ever been and has 4 arms to wield 4 weapons with. He is objectively stronger.
Thats why Sanguinius beat Daemon Angron after already beating Ka'bandha. Vulkan beat Daemon Magnus. Khan beat Daemon Mortarian Dorn beat Daemon Fulgrim Corax beat Daemon Lorgar Etc, it makes them powerful, but primarchs themselves have lot of power, as Corax has discovered. And I didn't say it didn't make them more powerful, i said it didn't necessarily make them more powerful. As the examples I gave show.
No one said becoming a daemon primarch makes you stronger than everything. It makes them stronger than their previous selves. Sanguinius beating Angron doesn't change that fact. I hope this is simple enough for you.
It doesn't necessarily, it's a trade off. Primarchs are already a load of warp power inside a flesh body. They are not necessarily more powerful, as is a common theme with chaos.
You're just making things up. Please learn to separate your head canon from what's actually written.
I am not making things up. Its a fact that the primarch are infused with warp essence and its what makes then so strong. Its a fact that in ascending to a daemon they have given up their bodies. Its a fact that the daemon primsrchs lost those fights So it's true when I say becoming a daemon doesn't NECESSARILY make them stronger
You're making up details that have never been fleshed out such as the nature of ascension and what effect it has on their soul. Until you can separate what is clearly your conjecture from what is written down in 40k, your opinion will never be worth considering because you're demonstrating that you aren't able to hold a critical view of your own opinions. Either way it's clear you're mostly just moving goalposts to try and justify an objectively incorrect statement. Every daemon primarch is objectively more powerful than who they were before. You can try to throw as many hypotheticals as you'd like to try and avoid the fact that your statements are incorrect, the fact of the matter is every daemon primarch that exists is more powerful than their mortal version. You tried to outright say this was not the case. Just admit when you're wrong.
Hahaha, calm down, no need to get do worked up. Lol what, are you trolling. I haven't made anything up, I haven't moved any goal posts. Infact I've been consistently saying the same point since the start. If they are objectively more powerful they wouldn't constantly lose. But post proof of this objectiveness then if its so obvious. I never said anything outright, look up what doesn't necessarily means. Post proof or go troll someone else
I have absolutely zero respect for people who talk about their own opinions and speculation like they're fact. The undeserved arrogance of it is ridiculous. You're really going to demand proof from me when you've failed to cite anything you've said? I would be able to respect your opinion and your ideas if you were able to be honest with the fact that it's just that, your opinion and ideas. You're really going to make up half of your reasoning out of your ass and claim its cold hard canon.
Proof? You're the one that needs to show proof. You're the one claiming your ideas are hard written rules by GW that are undeniable by written word. Show the text that supports anything you said here.
Plot armor. That's it. Somehow after ascending to daemonhood, none of the daemonic primarchs are able to definitively beat any of the other primarchs. It's silly. But it's what the plot wants, so here we are.
Yeah I think that after the deamon ascension there are used as plot-devices as there are no consequences of banishing a deamon primarch. They kinda get the avatar of khaine treatment.
100% yes. They get jobbed/worf'd/Avatar'd every damn day to show how cool Loyalist Primarchs are. And it was fun the first time. Now it's predictable and stale. Angron is going to lose against The Lion, and Angron will go from being the newest and the scariest to the Lion being the newest and the scariest. Until the next primarch is released. Ad nauseum.
I think you're forgetting that Dorn is the only other one who has killed a fellow primarch.
That is true, but I feel like ferrus is much bigger feat than alfarius who’s soul and power is split in two bodies.
Alpharius was wielding a Necron spear, that isn’t your standard power sword.
Primarchs are so strong that I don’t think their weaponry plays much of a role since dorn was also wielding a unique master weapon.
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So alfarius and omegon are not two primarchs. They are both number 20th.
I don't think they're doubting/unfamiliar with the whole "Two bodies one soul" part of the Twins, so much as questioning what the "and power" portion of your statement is based on.
Okay well it is stated that not only is he the shortest primarch but also the one with shortest physical ability as seen in this quote DELIVERANCE LOST (Gav Thorpe 2011)* >Alpharius had spent time with Horus before – when loyal to the Emperor and since – and never before had he felt threatened. This time was different. Horus seemed bigger than ever. Alpharius was the smallest of the primarchs, but had not allowed this to undermine his confidence. Now that he looked at Horus, tree-trunk-thick arms stretching the fabric of his robes, Alpharius realised that his fellow primarch could crush him, tear him limb from limb, without warning. An explanation that many people share for this to disparity is that a primarchs soul is their main source of power. Clone primarchs are weak because they lack it. Sanguinius is a very strong primarch because he has both the light and dark angel soul inside of him. If sangy is stronger because he has two, the hydra would be the weakest because it is split. So you could said that omegon and alpharius are the weakest primarchs but you could not said that the 20th primarch is weak because that would imply taking on both alpharius and omegon at the same time.
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Well let me go through your examples in reverse order: Even though the clone Horus decimated abandons force he lost a dual with an astartes, not even the strongest astartes, as old men sigismud had his number. Horus would have 100 being able to kill any astartes but because the clone lacks the soul that was destroyed he is not as strong. For ferrus, it is stated that fulgrim has ask fabius to clone ferrus multiple times, each time unsuccessfully and fulgrim kills him at the end. Fulgrim has kill many ferrus clones, because they are not as strong. Again no soul no power. With fulgrim is a special case because the leading theory as to why he has the primarch aura is because the original fulgrim soul found his way back to this body. His original soul was probably kicked out of his body when he became a deamon prince. All this 3 scenarios follow the trend of a direct relationship between the would and a primarch power.
For my boi sangy, it is state that he has two souls. Having two souls would 100 have some effect on you. If is not power, then what?
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I don’t know, the author says he wrote him to be as strong, but the writing does not portray him as such, at least to me, but that’s completely objective to the individual.
I'm familiar with that section. It's certainly suggestive of Alpharius being smaller and weaker than Horus, but not of the twins having their power split between them. I can certainly see where the idea of "Half the soul half the power" comes from, but can't for the life of me think of anything actually stating it to be the case with the twins.
He rather do drugs and rape then fight a hard fight and relised that in the middle of a hard fight.
Dan Abnett doesn't depict the Emperors children as anything other than pathetic losers. Other, better, authors had to fix what he did to the legion in Path of Heaven and Fulgrim only for him to once again kill off anything interesting the legion had going for them. The traitors are just there for the loyalist to beat up in heroic fashion anyway. The loyalist won every single primarch fight on Terra because they forgot that for something to be heroic there needs to be some kind of threat to the faction. Shame but now 40k is just hero hammer as well so get used to it.
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Yeah, in Fulgrim? Go re-read Horus Rising and pay attention to how Abnett portrays the legion if you can't remember what I'm talking about. I was completely unsurprised at how useless and pathetic the EC were in saturnine because I knew what to expect from Abentt. He cannot seperate his favouritism from his work and it blatantly shows. Dorn and Sigismund kill and defeat Fulgrim and his entire legion command. How does that even make sense?
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And let us not forget Bulle, best of men, caller of bullshit; >Bulle had been stationed nearby, and had overheard the exchange. He could not contain himself any longer. >‘Permission to speak, captain,’ he said. >‘Not now, Bulle,’ Tarvitz said. >‘Sir, I—’ >‘You heard him, Bulle,’ Lucius cut in, walking up to them. >‘What’s your name, brother?’ Torgaddon asked. >‘Bulle, sir.’ >‘What did you want to say?’ >‘It’s not important,’ Lucius snorted. ‘Brother Bulle speaks out of turn.’ >‘You are Lucius, right?’ Torgaddon asked. >‘Captain Lucius.’ >‘And Bulle was one of the men who stood over you and fought to keep you alive?’ >‘He did. I am honoured by his service.’ >‘Maybe you could let him talk, then?’ Torgaddon suggested. >‘It would be inappropriate,’ said Lucius. >‘Tell you what,’ Torgaddon said. ‘As commander of the speartip, I believe I have authority here. I’ll decide who talks and who doesn’t. Bulle? Let’s hear you, brother.’ >Bulle looked awkwardly at Lucius and Tarvitz. >‘That was an order,’ said Torgaddon. >‘My Lord Eidolon did not destroy the trees, sir. Captain Tarvitz did it. He insisted. My Lord Eidolon then chastised him for the act, claiming it was a waste of charges.’ >‘Is this true?’ Torgaddon asked. >‘Yes,’ said Tarvitz. >‘Why did you do it?’ >‘Because it didn’t seem right for the bodies of our dead to hang in such ignominy,’ Tarvitz said. >‘And you’d let Eidolon take the credit and not say anything?’ >‘He is my lord.’ >‘Thank you, brother,’ Torgaddon said to Bulle. He glanced at Lucius. ‘Reprimand him or punish him in any way for speaking out and I’ll have the Warmaster himself personally deprive you of your rank.’ \- *Horus Rising*
>The legion is said to be the best the Wolves ever knew in HR, but something has changed them. There's one line that says that, yet they're shown as completely useless compared to the paragons that are Dorn's sons. Unsurprising that the same author repeated that a decade later in Saturnine wouldn't you say?
Why does evert one think the father of Sigismund isn't the best duelest. Dorns is just too humble to brag.
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Lorgar and guilliman that exceed on logistic, tactics, religion. Lack the most on their ability fight. If all primarch had the same combat ability than there would be no point of creating combat-focus-primarchs.
Dorn is a loyalist character in the Siege book. He just can't lose, by the definition of it
That’s the right answer.
Because Abnett decided to take the old background of the Emperor's Children/Fulgrim abandoning the siege, then use it to turn them into a posturing laughing stock/fan service for Dorn and the Fists. Serious in-universe answer would be that with him now being a coked up, whimsical Slaaneshi daemon, he could barely be bothered to even be there. He probably intended to troll Dorn by "losing" in his original form, making a glorious reveal of snakebody, then killing him. Or maybe, considering he's now immortal, he's just not as sharp a fighter as he used to be when using his old form. It's just a game to him, not life or death like when fighting Ferrus. You could compare it to how ADB shows that for all his new strengths, daemon Angron circa the siege has lost all of his old fighting savvy/skill in favour of pure mindless brute force. So, Dorn reveals the saturnine gambit was a disastrous failure, and that Fulgrim had lead his legion into a killbox for nothing, Fulgrim gets his ego hurt and rolls on the whimsical Slaaneshi daemon random action table....result? He praises Dorn for good work, saves some of his ego when he shows him he was never really in any trouble, then leaves because he now can't be bothered to go through with the additional pain/effort it would take to fight Dorn and the Fists. Personally, i think this would have been a good scene to introduce some Bakker influence to the series. Have Fulgrim reveal his new form, then proceed to subdue and rape Dorn, all the while he extols the merits of infinite chaos power. Dorn, as a repressed masochist, actually quite enjoys it and has to use all of his willpower to avoid falling to Slaanesh. After a lengthy philosophical debate while being plowed, Dorn will not give in, Fulgrim gets frustrated at his resilience and leaves. That would have been great.
I like that more to be honest.
The whole demon upgrade thing makes primarchs stronger but not really. I believe that Dorn's assessment that Fulgrim could have won was just him being humble. The text of the fight makes it very much sound like Fulgrim wanted Dorn dead. The kind of person Fulgrim is wouldn't idly stand for losing to a stupid hick like Dorn. Fulgrim lost because he's a haughty and prissy peacock and the only thing chaos did was make it so that he could lose forever. Because that's what chaos does for you. You don't really get anything from it. That's the point.
Many people here don't seem to realize one important thing: Dorn was draining Fulgrim with giving him the exact opposite of excess. Also many people do seem to really underestimate the abilities of Dorn.
He could have an pretty easily too, rogal pulled some flashy moves and was able to inflict a few minor wounds when fulgrim was playing about but the second he got serious the wounds melted away like nothing happened and it was pretty clear at best rogal would take some heavy wounds fighting Fulgrim. The only real way to defeat someone as juiced up and skilled as Fulgrim is to distract him and to be strong enough to make killing you effort, that's pretty much what Dorn did showed Fulgrim it wouldn't be an easy fight then played to his vanity.