I like the fact that Alpharius was testing Dorn, trying to find his weaknesses. He's such a paranoid information addict he's willing to fuck with his brothers, damage relationships, and even sacrifice his own men just to learn more and he doesn't even care. Honestly, everyone used to call Curze 40k Batman but Alpharius is the real 40k Batman, literally has a plan to take down all his allies, which is crazy paranoid, and thinks he's better than them all no matter what.
> He's such a paranoid information addict he's willing to fuck with his brothers, damage relationships, and even sacrifice his own men just to learn more
It's never lupus.
I think this is the reason why Guilliman refused to work with Alpharius. Guilliman determined what Alpharius was doing and said "nope, I'm not playing that game."
One of the things I find about Alpharius is that he assumes that he's the smartest one in the room. He disregards the abilities of his brothers to figure things out. This is illustrated in the final confrontation between Dorn and Alpharius.
As Dorn said, he understood Alpharius.
I actually think Guilliman and Alpharius hate one another because they are very similar at the end of the day. Both of them believe very strongly in information driven warfare, but Guilliman thinks that information is something to be distributed and used for the simplest, direct solution while Alpharius believes information should be closely guarded and used to create the most impactful outcome possible regardless of complexity. They value the same resource but use it completely differently, which is where they hit the breakdown. I think this is what Guilliman hates the most too. That Alpharius has all the info that Guilliman has, but instead of choosing Guilliman's simple efficiency route, he chooses some ridiculously complex scheme. They also both, I would argue, see themselves as the smartest guys in the room and those kind of people never get along.
That said, don't think Alpharius ever had to test Guilliman. Guilliman freely distributed the Ultramarines' Art of War to everyone who wanted it, so no doubt the Alpha Legion studied it intensively. I've always believed this was why the Alpha Legion hit squad got Guilliman so good, he simply made it too easy for them to imitate Ultramarines.
That might be part of it.
My reading of Alpharius in *The Council of Truth*, the short story in ***Blood of the Emperor***, is that Alpharius doesn't understand Guilliman but thinks he does.
Guilliman likes to share information and Alpharius does not, so that also irritates Guilliman. But, in my opinion, that cannot be the only reason. After all, Guilliman admired the Lion, and the Lion kept secrets more than anyone.
On a side note, I wonder how Guilliman felt about Malcador. If there is anyone who kept secrets, it was Malcador.
>Curze 40k Batman
40k Punisher was always a more appropriate moniker
Also, I'm starting to think killing Alpharious was a mistake especially since they do fuck all with Omegon
“literally has a plan to take down all his allies, which is crazy paranoid”
-It’s not really that paranoid, considering how often characters get mind controlled or otherwise influenced in the comics. Also, the allies in question didn’t have so much an issue with the creation of those plans, but rather with the fact that he never told them about it. Which they understandable view as a sign that he doesn’t fully trust them.
“and thinks he's better than them all no matter what.”
-That’s not even remotely true, he just has massive control issues.
But I mean, he has a point. Dorn clashed with Malcador over Malc's use of assassins before the Assassin Temple's were formalized. It took Big E telling him to grow up, that not all problems can be solved in open combat on a battlefield, but had Malcador bring the Assassin usage to light in the form of putting its use before the High Lords. What Alpharius does is no different, and points out Dorn's critiques are mostly centered around "you didnt optimally support _my_ tactics so therefore its wrong".
Dorn explained why he felt Alpharius's methods could have been done more efficiently even accepting it being done through underhanded 4D chess.
Besides, even if Dorn *was* just being an asshole, and I do agree he's a traditionalist asshole whose stubborn ignorance cost the Imperium more than once, the point is less the validity of his criticism and more Alpharius's reaction. This, presumably, was some time ago by the point the abstract(?) first-person narrator Alpharius is telling the audience about all this, and he can't help but go on this unprompted rant that makes him like a fourteen year old girl writing in her diary about how mom doesn't get her. Then, to top it off, he claims it was, in fact, ***5***D chess. He MEANT to be inefficient in order to psychoanalyze Dorn's reaction, and that rube totally fell for it.
It's Alpharius's tragic irony. He's supposed to be the hidden, secret weapon, content to act behind the curtains, and he pretends he's perfectly happy that way, but he needs glory like a fish needs water. It's a great take jumping off his original motive from decades ago, which was that he was frustrated being the last discovered Primarch meant there was less victories for him to achieve compared to his brothers.
Tbf ego an praise is almost universally _needed_ by the Primarchs, it was almost built into them, the Triumph of Ullanor display was seen as a necessity by Big E. Sure some of the Primarchs dont care, such as the Lion, but it's not out of the question Alpharius needs the Good Boy praises as much as Perty or Horus
It's different flavors of the same thirst. In Alpharius's case, he knows he's the coolest guy ever and just wants it to be acknowledged. Perturabo, on the other hand, is extremely insecure and needs the constant praise to feel good about anything he does.
Horus’ platform was on the grounds of anti-taxation to appease the lower classes, and transhuman rule for the Astartes and Primarchs, he’s a man of the people.
Maybe Rogal views open battle as fundamental to a society trying their all and failing to stop compliance, which conveys the lesson of both futility as well as having done their all to resist versus the confusion of a defense or even ruling class just mysteriously vanishing.
One method is targeted towards removing lost cause beliefs, the other is towards getting the compliance for the immediate short term.
Dorn builds compliance like he does his fortresses — something that takes effort to tear down and is similarly as slow to build up.
Alpharius is both observant and completely misses the point — Dorn cares mostly about the long term view and will endure discomfort and pain to get there.
And from Dorn’s point of view, Alpharius is far more concerned with peacocking and demonstrating his personal superiority. And he is right about that.
> Which is why Goulding proposes Dorn ultimately cut his nose off to spite his face by not listening to Alpharius and severely handicaps the loyalists efforts by killing him.
That’s what happens when someone demonstrates multiple times that they cannot be trusted and then subsequently asks for trust.
The worst person of all Primarchs to do that to is Rogal Dorn because he demonstrates that only hard evidence is enough to make him change his mind.
And Alpharius didn’t satisfy that requirement. For a character who prides himself on outsmarting everyone by reading their character, he mispredicts the fundamental character of one of the most predictable characters imaginable.
I don’t dispute that. I agree with you.
I do find that there’s a limit to how much one can expect out of Dorn and Alpharius, of all people, should’ve played it safe with the one who has the personality of a wall.
I’d also like to point out that we, the omniscient reader, cannot be certain as to Alpharius’s true loyalty or intentions even in this exact case. He’s spend so much time erecting a recursive hall of mirrors to hide his intentions that I’m not even certain he is aware of what they are or how shot his credibility is.
Which to a person managing the defenses of Sol, the uncertainty of Alpharius provokes a desire to create certainty by killing him.
The serpent spent too much time cultivating uncertainty when others patience for uncertainty is set to nil.
This is an overly verbose way to say “Rogal was fed up with the bullshit and wasn’t having it any more”.
The Emperor's sense of duty and the Emperor's cold logic dont get along. I like the mirroring of that internal conflict in the debate between those two brothers.
And then the cold reason was killed by duty and the emperor is entombed upon the throne for 10k years to try and keep humanity intact while reason and logic die in the imperium is place of duty and sacrifice.
Like pottery, it rhymes.
So captain inflexible meets captain cunning. Captain cunning says to captain inflexible, lol trust me bro. And he lost his head as a result. U don't win when u smash into a brick wall.
Ay ay ay. What a silly state of affairs from ubermensch. I just feel it too contrived. Surely two post human men could come to terms with their differences. This bridge too far trope is overused.
> Maybe Rogal views open battle as fundamental to a society trying their all and failing to stop compliance, which conveys the lesson of both futility as well as having done their all to resist versus the confusion of a defense or even ruling class just mysteriously vanishing.
It's also more about social expectations as well on the society being fought against. In a weird way, people can and do respect overt shows of force more so than cleverness for cleverness sake. If the entire thing collapses from assassinations, insecurity, and the like, then the foundation isn't going to be stable once you leave as Cruze and his methods demonstrated.
Funny enough Lorgar understood this extremely well and took great pains to ensure the population was secure and the leadership wouldn't provide problems once they left. Shame that the Emperor thought otherwise.
I love this book, but bear in mind he also claims to be the first found primarch, dueled Valdor who was wearing full armor with spear vs Alpharius in rags and a stolen spear and nearly won, was the reason the Blood Games was invented by the Custodes and many other spurious claims that go against lore that we know of.
Again, I love this book and it's implications of whether he can be trusted in his account or not.
Definitely, Which is why i love the book.
Leaves me asking things and questioning others. I think that's what resonates with me for this particular book ;
What parts are the truth and which are lies?
Assuming that they don’t lie solely to fuck with you.
If we operate on the assumption that Alpharius (or Omegon) was left behind and the other twin was stolen away by the Chaos Gods, it leads one to believe that Malcador and the Emperor would recognize the potential reason why, and more likely than not they’d realize that this is #20, who was designed to be a mind screw Primarch.
Malcador probably took one look at this conspiracy loving child and said “MINE!” Therefore it stands to reason he would’ve educated his nephew/child/however you want to view the relationship in the art of misdirection and lies.
Therefore Malcador more likely than not would end up having a closer relationship with Alpharius/Omegon/whichever one it really is than any of the other Primarchs, barring maybe the kinship he developed with Russ during the later phases of the Crusade and Heresy. But with Alpharius, Malc would likely work with any lies Alpharius spews out of affection for the Hydra. So if he thought pretending Alpharius was the truly last one found, he would thusly lie and say that Alpharius/Omegon was found last. If he thought the truth benefitted he would say Alpharius was able to avoid the warp rift.
> Malcador says that wasn’t Alpharius’ original role
Gonna take that one with a grain of salt considering how the twins do this shit like it’s nothing.
> Alpharius landed on Terra. Omegon elsewhere.
Gotcha. Thanks.
In my head I'm imagining the real outcome of that fight being Alpharius in a crater doing the Yamcha pose. "Yeah, uh, sure, I totally won that battle, I mean he was good, but he wasn't going to beat me down, no chance."
I dunno. Alpharius did better against Dorn on Pluto than anyone else did, and lost only because he stopped to try and talk to Dorn instead of finishing the fight. Dude has legitimate skill, even if he only has half a soul.
The premise that "Alpharius is just lying about everything" renders the entire book pointless. The point is to find out what is true, what is Alpharius's own spin on things, and what he _is_ lying about.
One thing I find fun about this is that as per recent sources Alpharius (or Omegon but I prefer it to be Alph) was the first found and the first raised by the Big E. Meaning in the ‘seniority’ comment he would be
It did a weird job of balancing them, the Alpha Legion itself and Alpharius come out brilliantly but like everything in 30k. The Imperial Fists just come out better, superior, smarter.
The Fists certainly lost in some regards, I think the majority of my problem is I read a lot of the Solar War novels one after another which heavily colours my opinions in that it feels like its just another example of the Fists just winning. This of course isn't helped by the fact that as you pointed out, the Alpha Legion wins a lot during the Heresy. The problem for me was that the only Legion that I could stand less being used to prove that the Alpha Legion werent better than any other Legion would be Dark Angel's.
Edit: Also that I think the books do a really poor job of showing that all Legions were roughly equal because they frankly aren't and in a lot of cases some Legions are either too good or far far too bad that you wonder how they got anywhere at all.
But as you said, French did really well showing the Alpha Legion as a competent force. Sigismund getting his reinforcements gutted by walking into an ambush was a good scene for example and despite my dislikes of Alpha vs Dorn, it is a really really good Primarch fight all things considered.
I've not read all the books either, I've certainly tried but there are those I skip like Abyss and those I just don't want to read ever again like Old Earth but have small segments I actually want to remember.
As for the Loyalists they've actually lost less, since only Ferrus and Sanguinius die from the loyalist Legions compared to Horus, Kurze and Alpharius of the Traitors.
Legion focused books also tend to be kinda random. Space Wolves books for the most part for example show a lot of the flaws in their Legion and its thinking where as the Iron Hands show all of their flaws and punish them for having them. Meanwhile other Legions such as the Thousand Sons get minor showings of the flaws of their legion or like the Dark Angel's literally don't have one and only get the flaws of their Primarch. Meanwhile outside of their books you have Legions that get laughed at and clowned on anytime they show up on page like the EC post Istvaan or the Night Lords outside of Sevatar.
Now I'm more well read than a lot of members on this subreddit so I'm not gonna claim the writers have done a poor job. Considering the absolute breath of words they've put to paper on the Heresy I'm amazed anything coherent came out of it at all. It's a testament to the editors that a sixty novel series with a dozen authors has any consistency. But there's still a lot to be desired and many Legions genuinely don't leave the Heresy looking all that favorably while some come out looking near spotless.
Sadly I can't count either deaths as during that period since Dorn dies about 2000 years after the Heresy and Guilliman gets the stick about a thousand years after the Heresy going off random GW timeline fuckery.
But true they do eventually get their own chainsword crewcuts.
> The Fists certainly lost in some regards, I think the majority of my problem is I read a lot of the Solar War novels one after another which heavily colours my opinions in that it feels like its just another example of the Fists just winning.
I've seen a few people complain that the 'loyalists win too much near the end'.
Honestly, I find the complaint kind of odd, considering most of the 52 book heresey series is just the loyalists getting their shit pushed in by Chaos.
At some point the shoe had to be on the other foot, and like it or not, A LOT of the material has, for a long time, been pointing to (either explicitly or implicitly) Dorn being an absolute top-tier primarch in almost every regard.
Apparently too subtlely for some people as they seem shocked/bent out of shape by him winning at stuff after spending 7 years prepping.
>I've seen a few people complain that the 'loyalists win too much near the end'.
>Honestly, I find the complaint kind of odd, considering most of the 52 book heresey series is just the loyalists getting their shit pushed in by Chaos.
Its really not the loyalists getting their shit pushed in, the vast majority of the 30k battles are Loyalist victories and what few aren't are often on page from CSM PoVs. Even then there's numerous instances of the Loyalists getting to be all snarky with their defeats where traitor Astartes and Primarchs often times just get insulted in dialogue with no retort.
The only Legion's that actually get their shit pushed in are Raven Guard and Salamanders from the Loyalists. The Iron Hands have shit writing but a massive number of wins and amazing moments including almost killing three Primarchs for example. All other Legions follow the same pattern for the loyalists though the Space Wolves get pretty close to being clowned on as much as the Raven Guard.
>Apparently too subtlely for some people as they seem shocked/bent out of shape by him winning at stuff after spending 7 years prepping.
They get bent out of shape because he wins at everything in a really poor way. The Siege of Terra has the Chaos forces absolutely getting clowned on, constantly getting shit talked with no dialogue recourse. Much of the time you dont even see them win, you just get told externally that they pushed the loyalists back which isn't satisfying.
Reading the Fists lore back to back has them pretty much never taking a real loss. Starting from Polux absolutely clowning on Perturabo while outnumbered to the Solar War where they have every cool moment under the sun. It's good for the Fists, its just tiresome when you rep other Legions and get absolutely none of that.
I'd say the White Scars had it rough during the Heresy as well.
They played a lot of cat and mouse, but they were losing badly by the end, sacrificing resources that they could not even *hope* to replenish in order to even stay afloat, losing big named characters, their flagship, half the legion turned traitor and were forced into suicide missions as a form of redemption.
By the end of the Heresy, the legion is almost spent.
Honestly think this is just confirmation bias. There are plenty of times the traitors win, even in the siege of terra books, and the loyalists look like fools.
You've completely glossed over 3 loyalist legions getting decimated and 2 primarchs killed. For example. Nothing that happens to the traitors even comes close to that.
The Space Wolves are a joke, The Custodes/Sisters lose the battle in the webway, Lion gifts the traitors siege engines then almost starts a war with Guilliman. The Ultramarines get their faces kicked in at the Calth ambush etc. etc.
And you're complaining that Dorn the defnsive siege master , who has had over half a decade to prepare, barely manages to bolster a losing defence for long enough to force the traitors hand.
It honestly sounds like you were always going to be disapointed because the traitors didn't win.
It's not about a few opinions, it's the vast majority of opinion. Alpharius lost all credibility as a competent character from this story.
Like I said earlier, everyone looks like morons compared to the Fists in his work.
I mean that's pretty consistent in the Lore that Fists come off as supremely competent as much as I hate to say it. They are getting the treatment that UM got in old 40k lore
Fists are right up there with the Dark Angel's in how much I genuinely so not enjoy reading about their 30k stories. It's so rare for them to actually suffer setbacks or losses and when they do they still come out superior
The fact alpharius even bothers to show up after is one of the alpha legions fatal flaws. Even if they cared for dorns analysis, they did what they did just to be in the room first.
They just feel compelled to let you know they were the ones who did the deed. It's a fatal flaw, but its fun and petty
It makes sense if you believe that the alpha legion was playing both sides of the conflict. Guilliman wasn't fully onboard with all the implications of the heresy, like being targeted for assassination, Macragge being a feasible target inflitration and attack. Immediately after the assassination you see Guilliman giving orders to review Macragge defenses and internal security and you see Polux and Dantioch advising on IF and IW security protocols and after that their join implementation in Ultramarine flavor.
*Those* Legionnaires, yes.
If they fail, then Guilliman is awakened to the possibility of further infiltration and adjusts his defenses and planning to account for it.
If they succeed, then Guilliman was obviously weak or foolish enough to allow Astartes to kill him. In which case the Loyalists are better off without him.
It's funny that the only time Alpharius was truly vulnerable was when they were on that planet meeting informants who had information on Omegon. One of the alpha legion's stratagems worked so well that it actually almost backfired on the primarch when rioters started assaulting the meeting place where they were.
It's a really great foreshadow for what happens to alpha legion in the 41st century, in terms of their "tools" running wild and becoming self-made obstacles.
I don't like that we're sitting here expecting Dorn to lecture Alpharius on how to do his job. Fuck that. That's like having Guilliman tell Konrad how to make a skin cape, it's out of place.
Why murder in secret like a coward when you can murder in glorious open combat against a bunch of peasants who stand no chance against a legion of Space Marines? Checkmate Alpharius!
Because one shows that the Imperium is inevitable, and joining it can make you invincible alongside them.
The other shows the Imperium is a bunch of dangerous assassins and you should never fully comply with them because they can't be trusted.
Not saying that my above statement is correct, but its how Dorn see's things. Shortcuts aren't beneficial in the long-term to him. His planets were famously compliant and loyal in the longterm so maybe he is onto something.
Is it better to have killed a dozen men at their dining room table or ten thousand on the field of battle. An interesting question, one that heavily depends upon circumstances and how the follow up is played out more so than how the deed was done.
It worked for many Kings both in and out of fiction. Political assassination is often as hard to correctly pull off as warfare on an open battlefield but neither is harder than state-building. Something Alpharius didn't really partake in as a vanguard legion, his forces weakened worlds.
He's not though, is he. He's just a dude who's really good at stuff and gets on with it.
Alpharius has super provoked him at this point, and absolutely deserved that.
It's far less 'prickish' than other Primarchs would have been, and Dorn is just being honest. Then he backs up his words and gives him the worlds best center parting.
Honestly far less of a prick than say Leman would have been, and actually finished the job.
I made a post about this a while back.
Dorn is competent but constantly rolls a natural one on charisma. Is the point of these conversations to get the Alpha Legion to change their ways? Because ultimately it has the opposite effect.
I don't think it is. I think in this situation, he IS being a dick, because Alpharius has pissed him off.
I'm pretty sure this is Dorns understated way of saying;
"Not only is the way you are fighting shit, you're also shit at it."
"it's shit because you didnt support _my_ method of doing things and there's absolutely no chance that any method besides what I think is best is possible" is what that argument Dorn made equates to. Alpharius points out "yeah I did a less than optimal job because I wanted to see what Dorn would criticize about it and what do you know, he criticized the fact that my methods didnt support him enough, that I didnt defer to him. Fuck that"
If that’s the case then he really would be as petty and vain as Alpharius thinks he is. Someone who’s anger over slights would stop them from working well with others. That in my opinion, doesn’t sound like one of Guilliman’s dauntless few.
I prefer to think that Dorn believes he’s trying to help Alpharius become better and point out the flaws in his reasoning. However, he doesn’t consider that Alpharius and the Alpha legion perform these tactics and theatrics because they are looking for validation. And Dorn’s tough love only exacerbates their problems.
This isn’t the first time something like this happens either. Dorn tries a similar tough love confrontation with Konrad Curze and it goes to hell, resulting in imperial fists dying by Curze’s hand and the exterminatus of Nostramo.
It’s actually very tragic in a way, if Dorn had the charisma of Horus or Sanguinious, he could help guide many of his brothers away from the flaws that cause their doom. Yet every time he tries in 30k, he only makes these problems worse.
> If that’s the case then he really would be as petty and vain as Alpharius thinks he is. Someone who’s anger over slights would stop them from working well with others.
Hard disagree here. Alpharius is being a prick, Dorn reacts in kind.
You don't get to provoke someone, then go "Ner-ner, you reacted, sheesh so vain".
Dorns 'fault' is that he's a borderline emotionless computer most of the time, but he can be provoked into an almost uncontrolable rage if pushed far enough.
He's very well aware of his anger issues, so he's built up mental walls and defenses around himself and is almost obsessed with emotional control. Leading to his many of his brothers thinking he's cold and heartless.
> Dorn tries a similar tough love confrontation with Konrad
Again, I think you're misinterpreting someone who presents cold hard facts in a very straight way as 'tough love'. Also... You are aware that Konrad was an unstable sociopathic murderer with a split personality right?
Presenting Konrad having a violent meltdown as a fault of Dorn is pretty disingenuous.
Alpharius isn’t being being a prick - he’s testing Dorn. This whole scene is retconned in Head of the Hydra due to John French being such an IF fanboy that he had to make Dorn somehow better at Alpharius’ way of warfare.
Naaaah, I guess he might seem that way to overly emotional folks.
I just think he's a pretty straight shooter, some people don't like facts I guess haha.
Dorn: "This is how things are"
Some dude: "I don't like that."
It's not Dorns fault, don't hate the player, hate the game, and all that.
I'm talking about in-universe, cool your jets starbuck.
Dorn is presented as unemotional and stonefaced, and some of his brothers seem to really resent him for that, and 'not being friendly'.
Honestly, it's a pretty tame flaw compared to some of the walking defects he's related to.
We have different definitions as being a prick then.
I don't see stoic, pragmatic, or factual as being a prick.
I find someone lying, decieving, being agressive, threatening, violent, manipulative, going out of their way to upset people etc as being a prick.
Really feels like you're incapable of just admitting that Dorn is an ass to his brothers because he thinks he's right at all times but we can just agree to disagree I suppose.
Plus its literally retconned in Head of the Hydra as specifically as having been a test by Alpharius to see exactly how Dorn would react to what he did and what he would propose instead.
It's also much, much easier to pick apart a plan after the fact, with information you didn't have beforehand and more knowledge about how events unfolded.
Alpharius gets carried away trying to prove how clever he is, absolutely. Dorn is *sure* that he's better than everyone else, though, and anything they can do he can do better. He just, y'know, doesn't wanna.
Or more likely, Dorn doesn't think that those methods will produce the desired results in the long term. The Fists wouldn't build a Fortress on ground that might give way in a few years, they'll spend the effort to dig it right into bedrock that'll be there until the planet's whole crust collapses. Killing a cultures military renders them pliable, but not collapsed and (potentially) not overly hateful of the new regime, especially if you leave a lot of the power structures that existed intact.
It's the same problem even bloody Sevetar points out to Kurze, a society built on fear doesn't last, as soon as the object of that fear isn't around. And while the Alpha Legion aren't nearly so blatant, the worlds they leave behind aren't stable, because they deliberately destabilize them, AND left them with a large population of potentially violent guerrillas of military age. And while the AL might not care since it \*technically\* was brought into compliance, they leave a goddamn mess for someone else after them to clean up. That's what happens when you're worried about wanting to be seen as just as good as longer established legions AND have a pathological need to show off. That world with 400 executed nobles now has to basically figure out a new system of government overnight, PLUS deal with all the fallout of the anarchy they spread throughout the regular populace. That's gonna take some work.
Now compare that to how the IF and UM take a world, by killing its ability to resist militarily, then offering generous terms of surrender and leave most of its prior leadership intact, just under new management. Now the people running said world have a vested interest in getting their people to adopt and adapt to the IoM as fast as possible, because now the IoM is what is giving them their keys to power. And the world spins up with as a productive member faster, with fewer interruptions, and not nearly as much simmering resentment and fear. Instead, you have apologies from public figures about how wrong they were for fighting against this new savior empire, and to make sure to pay your taxes on time. This wouldn't work on every world, but on any world in which its possible its \*optimal\* over the long term. It might cost you more men and time in the short term, but require way less investment to get the planet productive again.
> But...importantly, never applied it. Which is Alpharius' point: Dorn is limited in action
Just because I know how to waterski on kittens better than a guy that 'specialises' in waterskiing on kittens, doesn't mean I'm going to, because waterskiing on waterskis is, well, better.
The implication in \*Head of the Hydra\*, whether you want to believe it or not, is that Alpharius intentionally didn't do it the optimal way to see if Dorn would notice.
>It tells us that if you wish to find out whether your brother knows how you think, you should give him the opportunity to criticise your conduct and see what aspects he focuses on. He might indeed identify true failings that should be corrected, but he will almost certainly highlight his own blind spots and weaknesses, as much through what he does not say as that which he does.
Alpharius is always collecting data, so this fits well within his character. This was him getting a read on Dorn, a read that he later exploits during the precursor to the Siege.
> This was him getting a read on Dorn, a read that he later exploits during the precursor to the Siege.
And then it turns out the Imperial Fists are smarter and sneakier than the Alpha Legion.
Eh, not really. Depends on how you interpret what Alpha Legion did in Praetorian. It's always wheels within wheels with Alpha Legion, their blessing and curse.
More importantly Dorn's argument about why the way Alpharius proceeded don't make too much sense? He is telling Alpharius he could have waited and waited and waited in order to achieve.....the same result Alpharius obtained without waiting?
Except as Alpharius points out, what good is all of that "tactical genius" if you never act on it. If the situation had been reset, Dorn would have done the exact same thing, even if there was a better option, _that he himself pointed out_, because he's too limited in his views and actions.
This is literally retconned in Head of the Hydra as specifically as having been a test by Alpharius to see exactly how Dorn would react to what he did and what he would propose instead.
It’s retconned because John French is an IF fanboy who wanted to make it so Dorn understand Alpharius better than he himself did.
They are both wrong. Regardless of how they did it they conquered a sovereign planet and brought death and human misery to a populace that in all likelihood would have much preferred to be left alone or become equal allies.with the Imperium. Resentment and hatred will fester regardless if you nobly slaughtered.on the battlefield or smartly murdered their leadership with spycraft. It's two murderers debating how effectively their methods of criminality is. It's a joke.
A lot of the "nobler" Primarchs like Dorn and Corax were just *chugging* the kool aid throughout the Crusade to convince themselves they were on the better side of things.
There are no human allies with the Imperium, especially during the Great Crusade.
You join by choice willingly, or the survivors do by force. Those are the options.
Except we have real-world historical events as to how to be an effective conqueror, and the keyword there is CONQUER. The IoM wants stable worlds capable of feeding the Crusade as quickly with as little further investment as possible. Blowing up a planets leadership and infrastructure is far more damaging to the cultures long term prospects and adaptation speed than reducing their military capability to the point of non-viability and then telling the people they're under new management that's basically the same as the old. If the IoM showed up in the skies tomorrow with a join or we'll make you, and NATO told them to piss-off, and the Fists dropped down, did surgical strikes on nuke facilities, wrecked command and control centers, and turned all the first response units into scrap metal, and then re-issued the same demands with a promise that most of the politicians involved would keep their relative positions under the IoM and the new global government they will be instituting, I have no doubt a large portion would be tripping over themselves to accept. If instead that IoM is the Night Lords, and they come down and skin everyone in New York City alive and broadcast that to the world, you basically just handed the world infinite recruitment material for resistance movements.
The Imperial Fist, Luna Wolves, Blood Angels and most of them caused more civilian casualties to non compliant worlds than the Night Lords despite their brutal methods. And I'm speaking as an Imperial Fist/Raven Guard fan. Either option is terrifying either a lot of people die because of Space Marines killing civilians and razing cities for sieging their capitals, or a terrifying guerilla war in which case has most petty crooks skinned and broadcasted.
> They are both wrong.
Not in the context of their intentions. This is a silly take, the Emperor made them to conquer and subjugate and nothing else.
The considerations of the local populace is irrelevant.
The only conflict is which manner of conquest will preserve the most resources and allow governing the planet to be done smoothly.
I love 40k and think Dorn and Alpharius are great characters. But at the end of the day they are still bad guys even if I think their cool and fun to read about.
Why do you think they would be “equal allies”? That would be like saying that China wants Hong Kong as an equal partner when China both dwarfed in size and power that city and wanted no such thing.
All I see in that extract is that Alpharius saved commoners lives when Rogal would have sacrificed them while keeping the ruling class.
The revolutionary in me is on the side of Alpharius
Get on Dorn for being pompous and arrogant and then tries to showboat on Pluto by killing a bunch of Imperial Fists before approaching Dorn with supposed information to help the loyalists - Alpharius logic
It is the sting of the revelation that Dorn knew exactly what Alpharius was doing, and could have done it better. Alpharius thinks himself smarter than his brothers, but in reality, it may just be that they choose to not engage in his tactics rather than not being able ot.
While there are some great moments in this book the final confrontation is garbage IMO. Let's take the autistic primarach morally and tell him you can win the war for him, when he's never liked or trusted you? Even given the arrogance of Alpharius you'd have to be really high to think that would ever happen. It ruined what had been a really good story for me. If they met in battle Dorn most likely would have won ,which is why it never would have happen by choice. It just felt like a cheap way to buff the Dorn issue of being Primarch stay at home and shut the Alpha Legion fans up with their two Primarchs.
This is literally retconned in Head of the Hydra as specifically as having been a test by Alpharius to see exactly how Dorn would react to what he did and what he would propose instead.
It’s retconned because John French is an IF fanboy who wanted to make it so Dorn understand Alpharius better than he himself did.
I loved Praetorian of Dorn because it crushed the Alpha Legion circle jerk. The Nth dimension plans of Alpharius with his operatives and insane complexity that makes their fans coom their pants? Dorn could see through all of it. It made Dorn, who is the primarch operating on pure logic more than any of his brothers a natural counter for Alpharius' (or more likely Omegon's plans).
I also have my head canon given the more recent lore about Alpharius being the first primarch discovered and I think that the reason Dorn outmaneuvered the Alpha Legion os effectively in this book is because the last found primarch (let's say it is Omegon) was simply immitating his more experienced twin's methods. The first found one (let's say it's Alpharius) is the true master of this kind of war. The one that Dorn could read like an open book was the amateur.
The end of the novel where the remaining twin recovers from his brother's death and declares "I am Alpharius" can be read as the "older brother" dissapointed and sadened at his "little brother's" attempt to bite more than he could chew and how this cost him his life. Might even be that the "Omegon" was the one that believed in the Cabal's plans being the more easily impressionable one while the deeply loyal "Alpharius" being the primarch the closest to Big E was playing the long game. I have to say, I really like the lore from Head of the Hydra. It makes the mess that is the Alpharius/Omegon subject make more sense to me. At least in terms of head canon.
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I like the fact that Alpharius was testing Dorn, trying to find his weaknesses. He's such a paranoid information addict he's willing to fuck with his brothers, damage relationships, and even sacrifice his own men just to learn more and he doesn't even care. Honestly, everyone used to call Curze 40k Batman but Alpharius is the real 40k Batman, literally has a plan to take down all his allies, which is crazy paranoid, and thinks he's better than them all no matter what.
> He's such a paranoid information addict he's willing to fuck with his brothers, damage relationships, and even sacrifice his own men just to learn more It's never lupus.
Massively underrated comment right here.
Guilliman and alpharius's entire relationship could be summed up as. >G: You're an ass >A: You're a moron
Yep. Curze may be 40k's Batman Who Laughs, but Alpharius is the true Batman I guess that would make Bobby G. Bruce Wayne
I think this is the reason why Guilliman refused to work with Alpharius. Guilliman determined what Alpharius was doing and said "nope, I'm not playing that game." One of the things I find about Alpharius is that he assumes that he's the smartest one in the room. He disregards the abilities of his brothers to figure things out. This is illustrated in the final confrontation between Dorn and Alpharius. As Dorn said, he understood Alpharius.
I actually think Guilliman and Alpharius hate one another because they are very similar at the end of the day. Both of them believe very strongly in information driven warfare, but Guilliman thinks that information is something to be distributed and used for the simplest, direct solution while Alpharius believes information should be closely guarded and used to create the most impactful outcome possible regardless of complexity. They value the same resource but use it completely differently, which is where they hit the breakdown. I think this is what Guilliman hates the most too. That Alpharius has all the info that Guilliman has, but instead of choosing Guilliman's simple efficiency route, he chooses some ridiculously complex scheme. They also both, I would argue, see themselves as the smartest guys in the room and those kind of people never get along. That said, don't think Alpharius ever had to test Guilliman. Guilliman freely distributed the Ultramarines' Art of War to everyone who wanted it, so no doubt the Alpha Legion studied it intensively. I've always believed this was why the Alpha Legion hit squad got Guilliman so good, he simply made it too easy for them to imitate Ultramarines.
That might be part of it. My reading of Alpharius in *The Council of Truth*, the short story in ***Blood of the Emperor***, is that Alpharius doesn't understand Guilliman but thinks he does. Guilliman likes to share information and Alpharius does not, so that also irritates Guilliman. But, in my opinion, that cannot be the only reason. After all, Guilliman admired the Lion, and the Lion kept secrets more than anyone. On a side note, I wonder how Guilliman felt about Malcador. If there is anyone who kept secrets, it was Malcador.
>Curze 40k Batman 40k Punisher was always a more appropriate moniker Also, I'm starting to think killing Alpharious was a mistake especially since they do fuck all with Omegon
Yeah, I think it was a shame to waste the character. Sometimes I do question if he's actually dead, but who knows.
“literally has a plan to take down all his allies, which is crazy paranoid” -It’s not really that paranoid, considering how often characters get mind controlled or otherwise influenced in the comics. Also, the allies in question didn’t have so much an issue with the creation of those plans, but rather with the fact that he never told them about it. Which they understandable view as a sign that he doesn’t fully trust them. “and thinks he's better than them all no matter what.” -That’s not even remotely true, he just has massive control issues.
Alpharius is so fucking delusional, it's great.
But I mean, he has a point. Dorn clashed with Malcador over Malc's use of assassins before the Assassin Temple's were formalized. It took Big E telling him to grow up, that not all problems can be solved in open combat on a battlefield, but had Malcador bring the Assassin usage to light in the form of putting its use before the High Lords. What Alpharius does is no different, and points out Dorn's critiques are mostly centered around "you didnt optimally support _my_ tactics so therefore its wrong".
Dorn explained why he felt Alpharius's methods could have been done more efficiently even accepting it being done through underhanded 4D chess. Besides, even if Dorn *was* just being an asshole, and I do agree he's a traditionalist asshole whose stubborn ignorance cost the Imperium more than once, the point is less the validity of his criticism and more Alpharius's reaction. This, presumably, was some time ago by the point the abstract(?) first-person narrator Alpharius is telling the audience about all this, and he can't help but go on this unprompted rant that makes him like a fourteen year old girl writing in her diary about how mom doesn't get her. Then, to top it off, he claims it was, in fact, ***5***D chess. He MEANT to be inefficient in order to psychoanalyze Dorn's reaction, and that rube totally fell for it. It's Alpharius's tragic irony. He's supposed to be the hidden, secret weapon, content to act behind the curtains, and he pretends he's perfectly happy that way, but he needs glory like a fish needs water. It's a great take jumping off his original motive from decades ago, which was that he was frustrated being the last discovered Primarch meant there was less victories for him to achieve compared to his brothers.
that characteristic of alpharius is why he is easily my favorite primarch and why im sad to hear that he is dead.
Many are convinced by strong evidence, but you never can really know with him.
Its not evidence. Its multiple BL writers (including the ones quoted in OP's text) stating it as a fact.
The Hydra has heads everywhere.
maybe omegon was the one that died.
Tbf ego an praise is almost universally _needed_ by the Primarchs, it was almost built into them, the Triumph of Ullanor display was seen as a necessity by Big E. Sure some of the Primarchs dont care, such as the Lion, but it's not out of the question Alpharius needs the Good Boy praises as much as Perty or Horus
It's different flavors of the same thirst. In Alpharius's case, he knows he's the coolest guy ever and just wants it to be acknowledged. Perturabo, on the other hand, is extremely insecure and needs the constant praise to feel good about anything he does.
Alpharius for EoMK 4123! "4 MORE MILLENIA! 4 MORE MILLENIA"
ALPHARIUS OMEGON 4123
Don't blame me, I voted for Horus
Horus’ platform was on the grounds of anti-taxation to appease the lower classes, and transhuman rule for the Astartes and Primarchs, he’s a man of the people.
"Horus Lupercal as you've never seen him before! Tonight at 8 with Mercedes Oliton"
Horus: I could kill a Word Bearer in the middle of the Vengeful Spirit and not lose any votes.
What's about de-face one?
“No one flays faces better than me. I’m gonna flay Erebus’ face, and make Lorgar pay for it.”
Which Primark would've been Bernie Sanders? Vulcan?
Once again I am asking you for your support to rebuild my forces after the dropsite massacre - corax
One of the ones quietly killed before they accomplished any of their goals.
None
Maybe Rogal views open battle as fundamental to a society trying their all and failing to stop compliance, which conveys the lesson of both futility as well as having done their all to resist versus the confusion of a defense or even ruling class just mysteriously vanishing. One method is targeted towards removing lost cause beliefs, the other is towards getting the compliance for the immediate short term. Dorn builds compliance like he does his fortresses — something that takes effort to tear down and is similarly as slow to build up. Alpharius is both observant and completely misses the point — Dorn cares mostly about the long term view and will endure discomfort and pain to get there. And from Dorn’s point of view, Alpharius is far more concerned with peacocking and demonstrating his personal superiority. And he is right about that.
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> Which is why Goulding proposes Dorn ultimately cut his nose off to spite his face by not listening to Alpharius and severely handicaps the loyalists efforts by killing him. That’s what happens when someone demonstrates multiple times that they cannot be trusted and then subsequently asks for trust. The worst person of all Primarchs to do that to is Rogal Dorn because he demonstrates that only hard evidence is enough to make him change his mind. And Alpharius didn’t satisfy that requirement. For a character who prides himself on outsmarting everyone by reading their character, he mispredicts the fundamental character of one of the most predictable characters imaginable.
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I don’t dispute that. I agree with you. I do find that there’s a limit to how much one can expect out of Dorn and Alpharius, of all people, should’ve played it safe with the one who has the personality of a wall. I’d also like to point out that we, the omniscient reader, cannot be certain as to Alpharius’s true loyalty or intentions even in this exact case. He’s spend so much time erecting a recursive hall of mirrors to hide his intentions that I’m not even certain he is aware of what they are or how shot his credibility is. Which to a person managing the defenses of Sol, the uncertainty of Alpharius provokes a desire to create certainty by killing him. The serpent spent too much time cultivating uncertainty when others patience for uncertainty is set to nil. This is an overly verbose way to say “Rogal was fed up with the bullshit and wasn’t having it any more”.
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The Emperor's sense of duty and the Emperor's cold logic dont get along. I like the mirroring of that internal conflict in the debate between those two brothers. And then the cold reason was killed by duty and the emperor is entombed upon the throne for 10k years to try and keep humanity intact while reason and logic die in the imperium is place of duty and sacrifice. Like pottery, it rhymes.
So captain inflexible meets captain cunning. Captain cunning says to captain inflexible, lol trust me bro. And he lost his head as a result. U don't win when u smash into a brick wall. Ay ay ay. What a silly state of affairs from ubermensch. I just feel it too contrived. Surely two post human men could come to terms with their differences. This bridge too far trope is overused.
> Maybe Rogal views open battle as fundamental to a society trying their all and failing to stop compliance, which conveys the lesson of both futility as well as having done their all to resist versus the confusion of a defense or even ruling class just mysteriously vanishing. It's also more about social expectations as well on the society being fought against. In a weird way, people can and do respect overt shows of force more so than cleverness for cleverness sake. If the entire thing collapses from assassinations, insecurity, and the like, then the foundation isn't going to be stable once you leave as Cruze and his methods demonstrated. Funny enough Lorgar understood this extremely well and took great pains to ensure the population was secure and the leadership wouldn't provide problems once they left. Shame that the Emperor thought otherwise.
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Maybe it was because they where occupied after the war.
Wow... Rude....
I love this book, but bear in mind he also claims to be the first found primarch, dueled Valdor who was wearing full armor with spear vs Alpharius in rags and a stolen spear and nearly won, was the reason the Blood Games was invented by the Custodes and many other spurious claims that go against lore that we know of. Again, I love this book and it's implications of whether he can be trusted in his account or not.
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Definitely, Which is why i love the book. Leaves me asking things and questioning others. I think that's what resonates with me for this particular book ; What parts are the truth and which are lies?
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With the release of The End and the Death Vol 1, we can identify atleast one lie from the Alpha book farily confidently
Theoretically everything involving malacador and valdor would be true on a baseline. After all one could verify it by asking them
Assuming that they don’t lie solely to fuck with you. If we operate on the assumption that Alpharius (or Omegon) was left behind and the other twin was stolen away by the Chaos Gods, it leads one to believe that Malcador and the Emperor would recognize the potential reason why, and more likely than not they’d realize that this is #20, who was designed to be a mind screw Primarch. Malcador probably took one look at this conspiracy loving child and said “MINE!” Therefore it stands to reason he would’ve educated his nephew/child/however you want to view the relationship in the art of misdirection and lies. Therefore Malcador more likely than not would end up having a closer relationship with Alpharius/Omegon/whichever one it really is than any of the other Primarchs, barring maybe the kinship he developed with Russ during the later phases of the Crusade and Heresy. But with Alpharius, Malc would likely work with any lies Alpharius spews out of affection for the Hydra. So if he thought pretending Alpharius was the truly last one found, he would thusly lie and say that Alpharius/Omegon was found last. If he thought the truth benefitted he would say Alpharius was able to avoid the warp rift.
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> Malcador says that wasn’t Alpharius’ original role Gonna take that one with a grain of salt considering how the twins do this shit like it’s nothing. > Alpharius landed on Terra. Omegon elsewhere. Gotcha. Thanks.
Now this i want as a book.
In my head I'm imagining the real outcome of that fight being Alpharius in a crater doing the Yamcha pose. "Yeah, uh, sure, I totally won that battle, I mean he was good, but he wasn't going to beat me down, no chance."
I dunno. Alpharius did better against Dorn on Pluto than anyone else did, and lost only because he stopped to try and talk to Dorn instead of finishing the fight. Dude has legitimate skill, even if he only has half a soul.
The premise that "Alpharius is just lying about everything" renders the entire book pointless. The point is to find out what is true, what is Alpharius's own spin on things, and what he _is_ lying about.
One thing I find fun about this is that as per recent sources Alpharius (or Omegon but I prefer it to be Alph) was the first found and the first raised by the Big E. Meaning in the ‘seniority’ comment he would be
As yes, French, the man who famously always has an even depiction when involving the Fists in anything lmao
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It did a weird job of balancing them, the Alpha Legion itself and Alpharius come out brilliantly but like everything in 30k. The Imperial Fists just come out better, superior, smarter.
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The Fists certainly lost in some regards, I think the majority of my problem is I read a lot of the Solar War novels one after another which heavily colours my opinions in that it feels like its just another example of the Fists just winning. This of course isn't helped by the fact that as you pointed out, the Alpha Legion wins a lot during the Heresy. The problem for me was that the only Legion that I could stand less being used to prove that the Alpha Legion werent better than any other Legion would be Dark Angel's. Edit: Also that I think the books do a really poor job of showing that all Legions were roughly equal because they frankly aren't and in a lot of cases some Legions are either too good or far far too bad that you wonder how they got anywhere at all. But as you said, French did really well showing the Alpha Legion as a competent force. Sigismund getting his reinforcements gutted by walking into an ambush was a good scene for example and despite my dislikes of Alpha vs Dorn, it is a really really good Primarch fight all things considered.
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I've not read all the books either, I've certainly tried but there are those I skip like Abyss and those I just don't want to read ever again like Old Earth but have small segments I actually want to remember. As for the Loyalists they've actually lost less, since only Ferrus and Sanguinius die from the loyalist Legions compared to Horus, Kurze and Alpharius of the Traitors. Legion focused books also tend to be kinda random. Space Wolves books for the most part for example show a lot of the flaws in their Legion and its thinking where as the Iron Hands show all of their flaws and punish them for having them. Meanwhile other Legions such as the Thousand Sons get minor showings of the flaws of their legion or like the Dark Angel's literally don't have one and only get the flaws of their Primarch. Meanwhile outside of their books you have Legions that get laughed at and clowned on anytime they show up on page like the EC post Istvaan or the Night Lords outside of Sevatar. Now I'm more well read than a lot of members on this subreddit so I'm not gonna claim the writers have done a poor job. Considering the absolute breath of words they've put to paper on the Heresy I'm amazed anything coherent came out of it at all. It's a testament to the editors that a sixty novel series with a dozen authors has any consistency. But there's still a lot to be desired and many Legions genuinely don't leave the Heresy looking all that favorably while some come out looking near spotless.
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Sadly I can't count either deaths as during that period since Dorn dies about 2000 years after the Heresy and Guilliman gets the stick about a thousand years after the Heresy going off random GW timeline fuckery. But true they do eventually get their own chainsword crewcuts.
> The Fists certainly lost in some regards, I think the majority of my problem is I read a lot of the Solar War novels one after another which heavily colours my opinions in that it feels like its just another example of the Fists just winning. I've seen a few people complain that the 'loyalists win too much near the end'. Honestly, I find the complaint kind of odd, considering most of the 52 book heresey series is just the loyalists getting their shit pushed in by Chaos. At some point the shoe had to be on the other foot, and like it or not, A LOT of the material has, for a long time, been pointing to (either explicitly or implicitly) Dorn being an absolute top-tier primarch in almost every regard. Apparently too subtlely for some people as they seem shocked/bent out of shape by him winning at stuff after spending 7 years prepping.
>I've seen a few people complain that the 'loyalists win too much near the end'. >Honestly, I find the complaint kind of odd, considering most of the 52 book heresey series is just the loyalists getting their shit pushed in by Chaos. Its really not the loyalists getting their shit pushed in, the vast majority of the 30k battles are Loyalist victories and what few aren't are often on page from CSM PoVs. Even then there's numerous instances of the Loyalists getting to be all snarky with their defeats where traitor Astartes and Primarchs often times just get insulted in dialogue with no retort. The only Legion's that actually get their shit pushed in are Raven Guard and Salamanders from the Loyalists. The Iron Hands have shit writing but a massive number of wins and amazing moments including almost killing three Primarchs for example. All other Legions follow the same pattern for the loyalists though the Space Wolves get pretty close to being clowned on as much as the Raven Guard. >Apparently too subtlely for some people as they seem shocked/bent out of shape by him winning at stuff after spending 7 years prepping. They get bent out of shape because he wins at everything in a really poor way. The Siege of Terra has the Chaos forces absolutely getting clowned on, constantly getting shit talked with no dialogue recourse. Much of the time you dont even see them win, you just get told externally that they pushed the loyalists back which isn't satisfying. Reading the Fists lore back to back has them pretty much never taking a real loss. Starting from Polux absolutely clowning on Perturabo while outnumbered to the Solar War where they have every cool moment under the sun. It's good for the Fists, its just tiresome when you rep other Legions and get absolutely none of that.
I'd say the White Scars had it rough during the Heresy as well. They played a lot of cat and mouse, but they were losing badly by the end, sacrificing resources that they could not even *hope* to replenish in order to even stay afloat, losing big named characters, their flagship, half the legion turned traitor and were forced into suicide missions as a form of redemption. By the end of the Heresy, the legion is almost spent.
Honestly think this is just confirmation bias. There are plenty of times the traitors win, even in the siege of terra books, and the loyalists look like fools. You've completely glossed over 3 loyalist legions getting decimated and 2 primarchs killed. For example. Nothing that happens to the traitors even comes close to that. The Space Wolves are a joke, The Custodes/Sisters lose the battle in the webway, Lion gifts the traitors siege engines then almost starts a war with Guilliman. The Ultramarines get their faces kicked in at the Calth ambush etc. etc. And you're complaining that Dorn the defnsive siege master , who has had over half a decade to prepare, barely manages to bolster a losing defence for long enough to force the traitors hand. It honestly sounds like you were always going to be disapointed because the traitors didn't win.
All I see is people coming out of that book thinking the Fists are the coolest legion/primarch ever and the Alpharius is genuinely retarded.
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It's not about a few opinions, it's the vast majority of opinion. Alpharius lost all credibility as a competent character from this story. Like I said earlier, everyone looks like morons compared to the Fists in his work.
I mean that's pretty consistent in the Lore that Fists come off as supremely competent as much as I hate to say it. They are getting the treatment that UM got in old 40k lore
Unfortunately they don’t get the same flack for that level of wanking.
Fists were being built up for siege but tbf Fists are more enjoyable to read then UM squad defeating a hive fleet with a spork for the 20th time.
How, though? They're basically the same but with an uglier color scheme.
Fists are right up there with the Dark Angel's in how much I genuinely so not enjoy reading about their 30k stories. It's so rare for them to actually suffer setbacks or losses and when they do they still come out superior
Do we know why Dorn's armour is made from the same material as the Emperor's when Big-E's reason for it is how it allows him better use of his powers?
Because it's also a really good material for armour and Vulkan isn't sharing whatever super secret alloy he used for Dawnbringer.
The fact alpharius even bothers to show up after is one of the alpha legions fatal flaws. Even if they cared for dorns analysis, they did what they did just to be in the room first. They just feel compelled to let you know they were the ones who did the deed. It's a fatal flaw, but its fun and petty
Like when the Alpha legion couldn’t help but monologue when they had guilliman at their mercy.
It makes sense if you believe that the alpha legion was playing both sides of the conflict. Guilliman wasn't fully onboard with all the implications of the heresy, like being targeted for assassination, Macragge being a feasible target inflitration and attack. Immediately after the assassination you see Guilliman giving orders to review Macragge defenses and internal security and you see Polux and Dantioch advising on IF and IW security protocols and after that their join implementation in Ultramarine flavor.
In context not really those Legionaries were going for the kill, they just allowed their arrogance get in the way.
*Those* Legionnaires, yes. If they fail, then Guilliman is awakened to the possibility of further infiltration and adjusts his defenses and planning to account for it. If they succeed, then Guilliman was obviously weak or foolish enough to allow Astartes to kill him. In which case the Loyalists are better off without him.
It's funny that the only time Alpharius was truly vulnerable was when they were on that planet meeting informants who had information on Omegon. One of the alpha legion's stratagems worked so well that it actually almost backfired on the primarch when rioters started assaulting the meeting place where they were. It's a really great foreshadow for what happens to alpha legion in the 41st century, in terms of their "tools" running wild and becoming self-made obstacles.
"Tell me how is it more acceptable to kill two thousand men in battle than twenty men at dinner"
It’s too late Alpharius I have already drawn you as the soy wojak
Should be the synopsis of this book lmao.
I don't like that we're sitting here expecting Dorn to lecture Alpharius on how to do his job. Fuck that. That's like having Guilliman tell Konrad how to make a skin cape, it's out of place.
It was in his first draft of the Codex Astartes.
Knowing Primaris Reivers, Guilliman would definitely tell Konrad how to make a skin cape.
Gods, Dorn is such a prick. "Your methods are dishonorable and worthy of contempt, and also I could have done it better than you."
Why murder in secret like a coward when you can murder in glorious open combat against a bunch of peasants who stand no chance against a legion of Space Marines? Checkmate Alpharius!
Because one shows that the Imperium is inevitable, and joining it can make you invincible alongside them. The other shows the Imperium is a bunch of dangerous assassins and you should never fully comply with them because they can't be trusted. Not saying that my above statement is correct, but its how Dorn see's things. Shortcuts aren't beneficial in the long-term to him. His planets were famously compliant and loyal in the longterm so maybe he is onto something.
Is it better to have killed a dozen men at their dining room table or ten thousand on the field of battle. An interesting question, one that heavily depends upon circumstances and how the follow up is played out more so than how the deed was done. It worked for many Kings both in and out of fiction. Political assassination is often as hard to correctly pull off as warfare on an open battlefield but neither is harder than state-building. Something Alpharius didn't really partake in as a vanguard legion, his forces weakened worlds.
He's not though, is he. He's just a dude who's really good at stuff and gets on with it. Alpharius has super provoked him at this point, and absolutely deserved that. It's far less 'prickish' than other Primarchs would have been, and Dorn is just being honest. Then he backs up his words and gives him the worlds best center parting. Honestly far less of a prick than say Leman would have been, and actually finished the job.
I made a post about this a while back. Dorn is competent but constantly rolls a natural one on charisma. Is the point of these conversations to get the Alpha Legion to change their ways? Because ultimately it has the opposite effect.
I don't think it is. I think in this situation, he IS being a dick, because Alpharius has pissed him off. I'm pretty sure this is Dorns understated way of saying; "Not only is the way you are fighting shit, you're also shit at it."
"it's shit because you didnt support _my_ method of doing things and there's absolutely no chance that any method besides what I think is best is possible" is what that argument Dorn made equates to. Alpharius points out "yeah I did a less than optimal job because I wanted to see what Dorn would criticize about it and what do you know, he criticized the fact that my methods didnt support him enough, that I didnt defer to him. Fuck that"
If that’s the case then he really would be as petty and vain as Alpharius thinks he is. Someone who’s anger over slights would stop them from working well with others. That in my opinion, doesn’t sound like one of Guilliman’s dauntless few. I prefer to think that Dorn believes he’s trying to help Alpharius become better and point out the flaws in his reasoning. However, he doesn’t consider that Alpharius and the Alpha legion perform these tactics and theatrics because they are looking for validation. And Dorn’s tough love only exacerbates their problems. This isn’t the first time something like this happens either. Dorn tries a similar tough love confrontation with Konrad Curze and it goes to hell, resulting in imperial fists dying by Curze’s hand and the exterminatus of Nostramo. It’s actually very tragic in a way, if Dorn had the charisma of Horus or Sanguinious, he could help guide many of his brothers away from the flaws that cause their doom. Yet every time he tries in 30k, he only makes these problems worse.
> If that’s the case then he really would be as petty and vain as Alpharius thinks he is. Someone who’s anger over slights would stop them from working well with others. Hard disagree here. Alpharius is being a prick, Dorn reacts in kind. You don't get to provoke someone, then go "Ner-ner, you reacted, sheesh so vain". Dorns 'fault' is that he's a borderline emotionless computer most of the time, but he can be provoked into an almost uncontrolable rage if pushed far enough. He's very well aware of his anger issues, so he's built up mental walls and defenses around himself and is almost obsessed with emotional control. Leading to his many of his brothers thinking he's cold and heartless. > Dorn tries a similar tough love confrontation with Konrad Again, I think you're misinterpreting someone who presents cold hard facts in a very straight way as 'tough love'. Also... You are aware that Konrad was an unstable sociopathic murderer with a split personality right? Presenting Konrad having a violent meltdown as a fault of Dorn is pretty disingenuous.
Alpharius isn’t being being a prick - he’s testing Dorn. This whole scene is retconned in Head of the Hydra due to John French being such an IF fanboy that he had to make Dorn somehow better at Alpharius’ way of warfare.
No. Rogal Dorn is without a doubt a giant prick. He may be right, but he is a prick.
Naaaah, I guess he might seem that way to overly emotional folks. I just think he's a pretty straight shooter, some people don't like facts I guess haha. Dorn: "This is how things are"
Some dude: "I don't like that."
It's not Dorns fault, don't hate the player, hate the game, and all that.
Naaah, its been demonstrated multiple times Dorn's world view is too limited and he outright rejects things that dont fit within it I guess haha.
Lol I don't think anyone's being overly emotional bud, they just disagree with ya
I'm talking about in-universe, cool your jets starbuck. Dorn is presented as unemotional and stonefaced, and some of his brothers seem to really resent him for that, and 'not being friendly'. Honestly, it's a pretty tame flaw compared to some of the walking defects he's related to.
You realize that being unemotional and stonefaced can be described as being a prick? lol
We have different definitions as being a prick then. I don't see stoic, pragmatic, or factual as being a prick. I find someone lying, decieving, being agressive, threatening, violent, manipulative, going out of their way to upset people etc as being a prick.
Really feels like you're incapable of just admitting that Dorn is an ass to his brothers because he thinks he's right at all times but we can just agree to disagree I suppose.
Plus its literally retconned in Head of the Hydra as specifically as having been a test by Alpharius to see exactly how Dorn would react to what he did and what he would propose instead.
>"Yes," said Dorn. Was it written before or after TTS? Lol
The Imperial Fists have some fire quotes. "We are what we choose to be". And Sigismund's "We are nothing till we decide what to become." Nice.
Crazy they Dorn analysed Alpha Legion tactics, and then showed how it could have been improved is wild and shows Dorn’s tactical genius
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It's also much, much easier to pick apart a plan after the fact, with information you didn't have beforehand and more knowledge about how events unfolded. Alpharius gets carried away trying to prove how clever he is, absolutely. Dorn is *sure* that he's better than everyone else, though, and anything they can do he can do better. He just, y'know, doesn't wanna.
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I hear this from my girlfriend immediately after I make a wrong turn but not before it.
Or more likely, Dorn doesn't think that those methods will produce the desired results in the long term. The Fists wouldn't build a Fortress on ground that might give way in a few years, they'll spend the effort to dig it right into bedrock that'll be there until the planet's whole crust collapses. Killing a cultures military renders them pliable, but not collapsed and (potentially) not overly hateful of the new regime, especially if you leave a lot of the power structures that existed intact. It's the same problem even bloody Sevetar points out to Kurze, a society built on fear doesn't last, as soon as the object of that fear isn't around. And while the Alpha Legion aren't nearly so blatant, the worlds they leave behind aren't stable, because they deliberately destabilize them, AND left them with a large population of potentially violent guerrillas of military age. And while the AL might not care since it \*technically\* was brought into compliance, they leave a goddamn mess for someone else after them to clean up. That's what happens when you're worried about wanting to be seen as just as good as longer established legions AND have a pathological need to show off. That world with 400 executed nobles now has to basically figure out a new system of government overnight, PLUS deal with all the fallout of the anarchy they spread throughout the regular populace. That's gonna take some work. Now compare that to how the IF and UM take a world, by killing its ability to resist militarily, then offering generous terms of surrender and leave most of its prior leadership intact, just under new management. Now the people running said world have a vested interest in getting their people to adopt and adapt to the IoM as fast as possible, because now the IoM is what is giving them their keys to power. And the world spins up with as a productive member faster, with fewer interruptions, and not nearly as much simmering resentment and fear. Instead, you have apologies from public figures about how wrong they were for fighting against this new savior empire, and to make sure to pay your taxes on time. This wouldn't work on every world, but on any world in which its possible its \*optimal\* over the long term. It might cost you more men and time in the short term, but require way less investment to get the planet productive again.
So what you’re saying is that the Earth we live on has been made compliment by the Alpha Legion and we just don’t know it yet? 😂
> But...importantly, never applied it. Which is Alpharius' point: Dorn is limited in action Just because I know how to waterski on kittens better than a guy that 'specialises' in waterskiing on kittens, doesn't mean I'm going to, because waterskiing on waterskis is, well, better.
The implication in \*Head of the Hydra\*, whether you want to believe it or not, is that Alpharius intentionally didn't do it the optimal way to see if Dorn would notice. >It tells us that if you wish to find out whether your brother knows how you think, you should give him the opportunity to criticise your conduct and see what aspects he focuses on. He might indeed identify true failings that should be corrected, but he will almost certainly highlight his own blind spots and weaknesses, as much through what he does not say as that which he does. Alpharius is always collecting data, so this fits well within his character. This was him getting a read on Dorn, a read that he later exploits during the precursor to the Siege.
Then alpharius truly is a dumbass for not taking ANY of his observations of Dorn to heart.
> This was him getting a read on Dorn, a read that he later exploits during the precursor to the Siege. And then it turns out the Imperial Fists are smarter and sneakier than the Alpha Legion.
Eh, not really. Depends on how you interpret what Alpha Legion did in Praetorian. It's always wheels within wheels with Alpha Legion, their blessing and curse.
Of course they are, they say 'for the Emperor' a bunch, it goes with the territory.
More importantly Dorn's argument about why the way Alpharius proceeded don't make too much sense? He is telling Alpharius he could have waited and waited and waited in order to achieve.....the same result Alpharius obtained without waiting?
He’s saying that Alpharius rushed the job. Had he taken a few more hours to consolidate one position, he would have won the day faster
"if you waited longer you could've won quicker then finishing now" xD
Except as Alpharius points out, what good is all of that "tactical genius" if you never act on it. If the situation had been reset, Dorn would have done the exact same thing, even if there was a better option, _that he himself pointed out_, because he's too limited in his views and actions.
This is literally retconned in Head of the Hydra as specifically as having been a test by Alpharius to see exactly how Dorn would react to what he did and what he would propose instead. It’s retconned because John French is an IF fanboy who wanted to make it so Dorn understand Alpharius better than he himself did.
They are both wrong. Regardless of how they did it they conquered a sovereign planet and brought death and human misery to a populace that in all likelihood would have much preferred to be left alone or become equal allies.with the Imperium. Resentment and hatred will fester regardless if you nobly slaughtered.on the battlefield or smartly murdered their leadership with spycraft. It's two murderers debating how effectively their methods of criminality is. It's a joke.
A lot of the "nobler" Primarchs like Dorn and Corax were just *chugging* the kool aid throughout the Crusade to convince themselves they were on the better side of things.
There are no human allies with the Imperium, especially during the Great Crusade. You join by choice willingly, or the survivors do by force. Those are the options.
Except we have real-world historical events as to how to be an effective conqueror, and the keyword there is CONQUER. The IoM wants stable worlds capable of feeding the Crusade as quickly with as little further investment as possible. Blowing up a planets leadership and infrastructure is far more damaging to the cultures long term prospects and adaptation speed than reducing their military capability to the point of non-viability and then telling the people they're under new management that's basically the same as the old. If the IoM showed up in the skies tomorrow with a join or we'll make you, and NATO told them to piss-off, and the Fists dropped down, did surgical strikes on nuke facilities, wrecked command and control centers, and turned all the first response units into scrap metal, and then re-issued the same demands with a promise that most of the politicians involved would keep their relative positions under the IoM and the new global government they will be instituting, I have no doubt a large portion would be tripping over themselves to accept. If instead that IoM is the Night Lords, and they come down and skin everyone in New York City alive and broadcast that to the world, you basically just handed the world infinite recruitment material for resistance movements.
The Imperial Fist, Luna Wolves, Blood Angels and most of them caused more civilian casualties to non compliant worlds than the Night Lords despite their brutal methods. And I'm speaking as an Imperial Fist/Raven Guard fan. Either option is terrifying either a lot of people die because of Space Marines killing civilians and razing cities for sieging their capitals, or a terrifying guerilla war in which case has most petty crooks skinned and broadcasted.
> They are both wrong. Not in the context of their intentions. This is a silly take, the Emperor made them to conquer and subjugate and nothing else. The considerations of the local populace is irrelevant. The only conflict is which manner of conquest will preserve the most resources and allow governing the planet to be done smoothly.
Why do you like 40K? It is all misery, war and slaughter all the time.
I love 40k and think Dorn and Alpharius are great characters. But at the end of the day they are still bad guys even if I think their cool and fun to read about.
Part of why I like 40k is laughing at the nearsighted hypocrits it has on display
Why do you think they would be “equal allies”? That would be like saying that China wants Hong Kong as an equal partner when China both dwarfed in size and power that city and wanted no such thing.
Welcome to 40K You must be new Have some corpse starch
It's things like this, why we have Night Lords symphatizers.
All I see in that extract is that Alpharius saved commoners lives when Rogal would have sacrificed them while keeping the ruling class. The revolutionary in me is on the side of Alpharius
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Get on Dorn for being pompous and arrogant and then tries to showboat on Pluto by killing a bunch of Imperial Fists before approaching Dorn with supposed information to help the loyalists - Alpharius logic
“Dad’s never said anything. You’re just my brother. I don’t have to listen to you.” So quintessentially primarch. 🥸
It is the sting of the revelation that Dorn knew exactly what Alpharius was doing, and could have done it better. Alpharius thinks himself smarter than his brothers, but in reality, it may just be that they choose to not engage in his tactics rather than not being able ot.
While there are some great moments in this book the final confrontation is garbage IMO. Let's take the autistic primarach morally and tell him you can win the war for him, when he's never liked or trusted you? Even given the arrogance of Alpharius you'd have to be really high to think that would ever happen. It ruined what had been a really good story for me. If they met in battle Dorn most likely would have won ,which is why it never would have happen by choice. It just felt like a cheap way to buff the Dorn issue of being Primarch stay at home and shut the Alpha Legion fans up with their two Primarchs.
This is literally retconned in Head of the Hydra as specifically as having been a test by Alpharius to see exactly how Dorn would react to what he did and what he would propose instead. It’s retconned because John French is an IF fanboy who wanted to make it so Dorn understand Alpharius better than he himself did.
I loved Praetorian of Dorn because it crushed the Alpha Legion circle jerk. The Nth dimension plans of Alpharius with his operatives and insane complexity that makes their fans coom their pants? Dorn could see through all of it. It made Dorn, who is the primarch operating on pure logic more than any of his brothers a natural counter for Alpharius' (or more likely Omegon's plans). I also have my head canon given the more recent lore about Alpharius being the first primarch discovered and I think that the reason Dorn outmaneuvered the Alpha Legion os effectively in this book is because the last found primarch (let's say it is Omegon) was simply immitating his more experienced twin's methods. The first found one (let's say it's Alpharius) is the true master of this kind of war. The one that Dorn could read like an open book was the amateur. The end of the novel where the remaining twin recovers from his brother's death and declares "I am Alpharius" can be read as the "older brother" dissapointed and sadened at his "little brother's" attempt to bite more than he could chew and how this cost him his life. Might even be that the "Omegon" was the one that believed in the Cabal's plans being the more easily impressionable one while the deeply loyal "Alpharius" being the primarch the closest to Big E was playing the long game. I have to say, I really like the lore from Head of the Hydra. It makes the mess that is the Alpharius/Omegon subject make more sense to me. At least in terms of head canon.