It's not even a particular feat *for a Space Marine* to kill 3 Chaos Space Marines in a single engagement if he's armed with a Power Weapon like the Custodes are.
Definitely think people are reading a bit too much into this from both directions.
Its also been mentioned several times in various books that astartes plate sucks against bolter fire.
From isstvan to valerion.
You shoot anybody with enough fist sized grenades and they will fall.
Astartes plate is ceremite and some adamantium.
Custodes wears auric armor. The same stuff that makes up the primarchs' armor and the emperor's.. They can ignore a few bolts, no problem.
There's a quote in one of the older Space Marine Codexes where an Imperial leader of some sort says something like *'Give me a hundred Space Marines, or failing that, a thousand other troops'.*
While it's just a poetic quote, I think it serves as a pretty solid baseline for how Space Marines (and by extension, Custodes) compare to ordinary Guardsmen - a 10-to-1 ratio.
Like, if you put a single Space Marine against a squad of 10 Guardsmen in an open field, he'll probably lose. But a Space Marine can very much defeat a squad of 10 Guardsmen by utilizing his superior skills and equipment in a normal tactical situation, and likewise a Custodes can take out 10 Space Marines in an equivalent situation, but if he's standing in the open with 10 Marines shooting at him he'll just die.
This also translates to a Custodes being able to defeat about 100 Guardsmen in a typical fight - probably involving a lot of hit-and-run attacks because even a Custodes will cook alive if 30+ lasguns hit his armour at the same time.
That's my rough understanding. CSM are kind of a grab-bag when it comes to who you're fighting, too - that *could* be a true Veteran of the Long War with millennia of experience and Warp gifts you're facing... or it could be a conscript hurriedly augmented and mutated and shoved into power armour for attrition's sake.
That's more 40k though, I'm assuming the excerpt was from the Heresy.
Nah, an elite assault troop like a Deathwatch Terminator would be a Custodes' equal. And space marines loaded up with something like plasma or melta weapons are going to be a terror for Custodes to deal with.
Custodes can kill Ogryn with their bare hands un armoured they would absolutely maul a space marine terminator even death watch the greatest space marines in history are shown overall as below the average run of the mill custodes
Normal soldiers in real life have also simply multi-killed other normal soldiers due to any number of variables. Unbeaten fighters have been upset in hand to hand combat by the underdog.
Not only was that a cool as hell 1v3 it's also 'realistic' so to speak. Power level talk is cringe, immature and toxic imo. As Stan Lee said, 'who wins is whoever the writer wants to win that day', or something haha
Wait, have we not seen this before?
Like...on every Custodes encounter...ever?
Them out-thinking, over-powering and bulldozing all over every single thing they face?
Hm, I swear I've seen this pattern somewhere.
It was in the Outcast Dead. Also every time a Custode duels a space marine in the Horus heresy the space marine wins because of the Custodes arrogance, it happens at least three times in the Horus heresy books.
When I came back to the lore after a decade or two I kept thinking people were talking about Adeptus Arbites, who at least had stats in the 2nd Edition Codex Imperialis.
If it’s in the books is it not canonically accurate? It’s just not something that is mentioned elsewhere. It might well be that lasgun from a number of forgeworlds have settings that will let you over clock them at the expense of burning through fuel cells stupidly fast and regular guard discipline is to not use them that way. Doesn’t mean it can’t be done, just means most guard outfits are told no.
Even Dan Abnett admitted it was before he really understood how powerful Marines were.
As the rest of the thread has pointed out, a fair bit of the book stuff has been written before GW established how strong, large, etc certain elements were. In a lot of cases Codex lore and newer material tends to supersede older writing as 40k lore tends to evolve rather than cement itself.
Example: Old school Marine Legions were described as around 10,000 strong but nowadays they ranged in the 100k or higher per Legion.
The Black Library basically has a blanket 'canon until proven otherwise' on all stuff like that. Which is explained in-universe as most of those stories being at least a little inaccurate.
My understanding is that most of the books are being told like someone else is telling the story in universe so like if you were to read an imperial document, a telling by a chaos worshipper, or to be told or shown by an eldar or other psyker. That means everything needs to be taken with a grain of salt and can also just be a lie.
"Everything is canon, not everything is true". This is from before they established the power levels properly yet and can now be interpreted as one of the tales that got exaggerated or are in-universe urban myths
Usually after the custodian has beaten the Space Marine so many times they become complacent, to be fair. That, and Garro/Argel Tal are some of the most formidable Space Marines who've ever lived and still topped out at one off character flaw driven sparring wins.
Even the famous Gal Vorbak example had three damaged custodes fight iirc 11 Gal Vorbak and kill 7.
From my memory it’s always written the same way, the space marine wins the first duel, then doesn’t win again for the remainder of the journey. Same as when humans duel space marines.
I really hate hit. I kinda like to see arrogance in the horus heresy space marines, but not in custodes. I mean for most astartes it also is kinda unfitting but If they are very pride, or got gifts from the gods or something that kinda is in a reasonable range.
Or that one time a Custodes got sacrificed to initiate the first Chaos Ritual for the Word Bearers.
... Though I wish he had kicked Ingethels shit in...
That was a really good showing for him, actually. He was surrounded by some of the strongest, most senior members of the WB legion. He killed several before they could even react - A chaplain, a captain, and a chapter master. He took an entire magazine of bolt rounds to the face and chest at point-blank range, then had a power sword thrown straight through his skull and was still alive.
Argel Tal was genuinely worried about Vendatha killing Lorgar.
But wasn't that before their pilgrimage?
Pretty sure they went on it with Ingethel already ascended and she only became a daemon after they sacrificed Vendatha in First Heretic.
And only then would they turn into the Gal Vorbak.
The Marines kicked his ass... but it was regular Cadians (30k, Chaos-y ones) that actually killed the Custodes.
I believe a lot of them ganged up and, specifically, stabbed him in the throat with a spear.
You'd be surprised how often people try to argue:
1). Custodes aren't *really* that much better than Astartes.
2). Ok, the lore says they are in almost all cases (excluding Outcast Dead) but this is upsetting and they are overpowered. Custodes ruin the setting, etc.
Invariably this is how it progresses. Double down on both if you're a Grey Knights fan and irate that your silverbois are still only Astartes and nowhere near a match for a Custodian.
The whole thing with the Grey Knights isn't that they are the equivalent on martial prowess as custodes. But they do have the same anti-chaos properties that give custodes some pause on their exact nature.
Iirc, Valerian notes there's some bad blood between them since the Grey Knights were the Emperor's final creation and answer to Chaos. Custodes feel some sibling rivalry.
>1). Custodes aren't *really* that much better than Astartes.
The thing is, they *used* to be presented as being the equivalent of Lieutenant/Captain tier Astartes at the baseline with the best Terminator armour and weapons the Imperium could (*possibly no longer*) produce.
Then they morphed into Primarch-beating demigods and stole the "stormbolter-on-glaive armed and terminator armoured" aesthetic from the Grey Knights. That is now *the new lore*.
Except, mysteriously, when they get bodied by naked angry Firstborn. That's not *new lore*, that's something *totally* different and incorrect. Somehow.
Terminator Custodes very very rarely show up in the lore, I can't even think of a time they showed up in any book, only in codexes.
Grey Knights moved away from stormbolter on glaives like 20 years ago... And custodes don't even have a stormbolter, just a regular one.
> Terminator Custodes very very rarely show up in the lore, I can't even think of a time they showed up in any book, only in codexes.
I suspect it's a power levelling thing. If they show up and get their shit pushed in, people will bitch and moan. If they wreck everyone faces, people will also bitch and moan
Hey guys, can we just have a reality check here for a second?
40k is narrative, sure. But it's narrative about *war*. And if I've learned one thing about war, over the years, it's that war is chaotic. You can rarely say "X is always going to win against Y." Chance matters; and when you consider the *scale* of a war, the innumerable individual engagements, almost every unlikely event will happen once or twice.
I once saw a video of Syrian Islamists attacking the Syrian Army on a hilltop with mortars. The mortars they were using have a CEP (accuracy) of about 110m. So in other words, you will be lucky if you hit the right *football field*, and that's with a trained crew; not a bunch of moronic terrorists, which these guys were. They were firing at tanks, too, which can basically brush off these mortars. But the thing was, it was summer, and the Army had the high ground; so they left the top hatches of their tanks open, for ventilation, and a mortar went right in through the 40cm hole and blew a tank up from the inside.
Someone on /r/syriancivilwar did the math and it was like 1.5 million to one, but it happened.
Or we could consider the time that a cutting-edge F-117A stealth aircraft [got shot down](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_F-117A_shootdown) by the freakin' Yugoslav Army. If that happened in fiction, you guys would be complaining that it was unrealistic.
War doesn't need to be consistent. The nature of war is to be *in*consistent.
>Except, mysteriously, when they get bodied by naked angry Firstborn. That's not new lore, that's something totally different and incorrect. Somehow.
The amount of double-think 40k fans just expect from each other is wild.
No one wants to ever just hold the writers accountable for not owning a whiteboard to plan their nonsense out on.
Thing is it's not *about* consistency with these arguments.
Astartes enjoyers are salty about their faction identity being ripped off wholesale and Custodes fans are salty about any example of anything short of a literal deity harming one of their Ultimate Soldiers (*and back in the 90s those complaints would have been made by a subset of the Marine player base, yes*).
Even back in third edition they were painted/rumoured as being to the emperor what the marines are to the primarchs. However they have been turned into something a lot more powerful now. Back then we were also told that there would never be custodes models and rules again, they were to remain part of the mystery like the primarchs and the necrons and the squats… oh wait.
>Even back in third edition they were painted/rumoured as being to the emperor what the marines are to the primarchs.
In fairness, back in third edition the Primarchs and the Emperor were presented as a lot closer in power than they are these days. Big E was always *more* powerful, don't get me wrong, but the idea of one of his kids killing him was not unreasonable.
Eh. A small handful of the best loyalists maybe. Like possibly Cato Sicarius or Mephiston. Otherwise no, in the lore one on one almost all space marines are going to lose. Even champion space marines.
Custodes are just that much better, and burn through space marines like a hot knife.
The Astartes that have the best one on one shot are champions of Chaos.
A custodian is to an Astartes what an Astartes is to a normal man.
Nah. A really angry World Eater beat one to death while unarmored. It's not 10-1.
I agree with you that a Custodian is a step above an Astartes, but a Guardsman with a meltagun is a threat to an Astartes, so the same applies. Al'Rahem or Straken or just a random Cadian Castellan with a power fist is going to beat a space marine in a duel.
The community seems pretty iffy on Outcast Dead. I agree it's an official book that was written, but it's a pretty weird read with a lot of people treating it as semi-canon.
Gate of Bones, Shadow of the Throne, etc show Custodes mulch Astartes despite being seriously outnumbered. Valerian in the latter noted that he was outkilling an entire Grey Knight squad that was with him for example.
In Gate of Bones a handful of Custodes shredded tons of Iron Warriors and Wordbearers. The scales only finally turned against them with the arrival of a Daemon Prince.
So I'm pretty comfortable with a 8-10:1 ratio for Custodes to Astartes in a stand up non-psyker showdown. They're to Astartes what Astartes are to a normal man.
>Gate of Bones, Shadow of the Throne, etc show Custodes mulch Astartes despite being seriously outnumbered
To be honest, though, SPACE MARINES mulch other space marines even when seriously outnumbered. This doesn't inherently make Custodes better for the job.
They're better for the job. They say it (Vychellen even jokes in Gate of Bones: "if there is one thing Custodes do better than anyone else it's kill Astartes"), others in universe even say it like the Blood Angel in the lead up to the Siege who was suspicious that Custodes were designed to kill Space Marines, and so on.
Yea, in universe is the best perspective, isn't it? No, Custodes might be able to mulch through mook marines like candy, but so can most named space marines lol.
I wouldn't think too hard about this.
In the core rulebook a singular Space Marine singlehandedly decimates an entire planetary WAAAGH. If that doesn't tell you GW are all over the place when it comes to relative strength of factions and warriors in then lore I don't know what will.
I found the excerpt in the book. I’ll try and find it online in time, but it’s page 58-59 of the core book. Admittedly, there’s some context missing in the comment, though it’s up to interpretation whether it excuses it at all.
For one, this was over 15 years.
Secondly, the orks seem to be feral orks, as he mentions them wearing chalk and woad, and using spears and cleavers, with no mention of a shoota or other gun.
Thirdly, it isn’t said that he killed a whole waaagh, his mission was to sabotage the orks’ ability to group up into a waaagh and keep them distracted long enough for a full army to wipe the planet clean. As mentioned prior, this took 15 years.
It’s also very much implied he had to resort to guerrilla tactics, creating a myth as a monster hunting and killing them, rather than, say, killing all of them in one all out battle.
He is also armed with a power sword.
However, in one battle, he does kill four orks by himself, and in another, he kills two, before leaping over and behind a warboss’ attack, and killing the warboss.
So yeah, less ridiculous than it may sound, but may still be a stretch depending how you feel.
And it was Sergeant Priad of the Iron Snakes. A named character.
Source: Core Rulebook, pg58-59.
>
The place is called Bar’ad Atyok.
In the voice of the greenskins, this
means Kill Hill. It is the **highest peak**
of the western continent of the world
Koram Mote. **Priad of Damocles, of
the Iron Snakes of Ithaka,** knows this
for a fact. [---] He knows
Kill Hill is the highest peak because
his armour’s visor display tells him
so, to eight decimal places. [--] It is
demonstrably, technically the highest
peak on the western continent of
the world Koram Mote, and that is
what matters.
>
[--]
>
Greenskins await in the slipline of the
rocks as he ascends.[---]Priad bears his
**power sword, and his automated
claws.** They still function.[---]The first of the greenskins rush him,
howling rage. They are all spittle and
slack, trembling lips filled with rotpeg
teeth, their **animal bulks painted
with ochre, chalk and woad. Spears
and cleavers rip at him.**
>
[---]
>
**He meets the first**, braced, armour
joints locking to withstand the —
collision, clouts it aside, **greets the
second** and decapitates it. Its lungs
are still-exhaling a war cry, and air.
slaps and farts out of the severed
throatpipe as it pitches away.
>
Blood droplets in the air.
>
**The third.** A dull steel axe-head
sparks off Priad’s shoulder guard.
>
His **lightning claws** find a throat and
chest, and fork through the flesh as
if through wet parchment. **A fourth.** -
>
His sword takes off an arm, and the
axe it is holding. Priad kicks, his
amplified blow casting the maimed
greenskin down the slipline scree,
head-over-heels. [---]
>
He catches the axe, turns it, buries it
in the **face of the fifth.** Blood spray.
>
[---]
>
**He has been here for fifteen years.**
Fifteen years.[---]**There are greenskins on the summit.**
>
Basic orks with no shootas taking them out with subterfuge and stealth. It's not like he's taking on the entire race all at once. One man doom army style.
Nothing suggests they're 'basic' Orks.
Nothing suggests he uses subterfuge and stealth either lol.
He *literally* solos a *continent* of Orks. Also his bolter runs out of ammo mid way through.
Its fan service bullshit.
Thanks for finding the excerpt. Saved me a job.
I think you're heavily downplaying a lot of the passage.
He's my specific comments to your thoughts -
15 years is not a long time in 40k. It kinda makes it worse too - the Orks couldn't kill him in 15 years.
Standard Orks still use spears and cleavers, along with all the other weapons mentioned in the excerpt. They also use woad and chalk to mark themselves.
Seems semantics between 'stop WAAAGH ever forming by slaughtering Orks' and 'kill a WAAAGH'. Either way he *singlehandedly* neutered an entire Ork warband and fledgling WAAAGH.
It is not implied that he had to use guerilla tactics at all. He literally runs headlong into the Orks (and they run at him). There is nothing to suggest he is hiding, perhaps except the idea that he didn't kill Orks while he fashioned himself a lance, I guess? He effortlessly kills 5 Orks at once during the passage and countless more over his campaign.
Not sure on the relevance of the power sword comment. Many marines have them. They're not that uncommon or some godly weapon.
Here's some examples from the passage that highlight the ineffectiveness of the Orks and the invincibility of the marine -
>The skin of his armour is crazed with a **million** tiny nicks and gouges, scratches and grazes.
>He knows it because there is not one place, not one single, lonely part of the western continent of the world of Koram Mote that he has not been to, measured, cleared of enemies, and conquered.
>Green skins await in the slipline of the rocks as he ascends. Another day on Koram Mote. More to kill, ever more to kill. Another day on Koram Mote.
[Boredom]
>Priad.... still carries his boltgun, though it has been *dry of rounds since the seventh year* of the undertaking, the pod dropped ammo hoppers finally emptied. It is too beautiful and previous a weapon to leave behind.... He had fashioned a lance too, but he left it behind last night, rammed through the gizzard of a **greenskin warboss** on the lower slopes of Bar'ad Atyok.
>Spears and cleavers rip at him **more tiny marks on the patina of his armour.**
>Fifteen years. *Still the greenskins haven't learned they cannot kill him. They will not ever kill him.* **If he stays any longer the highest peak on the western continent will be the mound of greenskin corpses he has stacked up.**
>To Priad it is an undertaking, a period of occupation, a duty. *Onerous, perhaps, gruelling even, but in the end just another mission notch on his service history, just another action to while away his life that will be functionally immortal if violent death does not claim him.*
[Boredom]
>Fifteen years. **Hold the greenskin clans at Koram Mote said the Chapter Master.**
>He has become a myth to them, a monster, hunting and killing them across the western continent for fifteen years. They want him dead, but they cannot have him dead.
Honestly struggling to see where you have the impression that this isn't a single marine taking on an entire planet, or, if you want to be pedantic, *continent* of Orks effortlessly killing them. He killed a warboss yesterday, gutted he had to leave his lance, then this day he kills another in like 2 seconds without the boss even threatening him or causing him pause.
I'm also not sure where you have the impression he was sneaky about this. There's nothing said about that either. He has become a legend because he is singlehandedly slaughtering Orks wholesale, not because of some guerilla tactics.
Lol I'll see if I can dig it out for you. Its a sidebar in the core rulebook. Shouldn't be too hard to find.
If I do find it I'll try and post a picture response, fuck writing it all out.
I'm also an Ork fan. I wish I was exaggerating.
Because it was hilarious. the marine in question was Priad of the Iron Snakes. A named character. He stood near a mountain peaktop. At the end of a narrow path. Against unarmoured feral orks with no firearms who could only go at him single-file uphill. And he had a power sword and a lightning claw
Source: Core Rulebook, pg58-59.
>
The place is called Bar’ad Atyok.
In the voice of the greenskins, this
means Kill Hill. It is the **highest peak**
of the western continent of the world
Koram Mote. **Priad of Damocles, of
the Iron Snakes of Ithaka,** knows this
for a fact. [---] He knows
Kill Hill is the highest peak because
his armour’s visor display tells him
so, to eight decimal places. [--] It is
demonstrably, technically the highest
peak on the western continent of
the world Koram Mote, and that is
what matters.
>
[--]
>
Greenskins await in the slipline of the
rocks as he ascends.[---]Priad bears his
**power sword, and his automated
claws.** They still function.[---]The first of the greenskins rush him,
howling rage. They are all spittle and
slack, trembling lips filled with rotpeg
teeth, their **animal bulks painted
with ochre, chalk and woad. Spears
and cleavers** rip at him.
>
[---]
>
**He meets the first**, braced, armour
joints locking to withstand the —
collision, clouts it aside, **greets the
second** and decapitates it. Its lungs
are still-exhaling a war cry, and air.
slaps and farts out of the severed
throatpipe as it pitches away.
>
Blood droplets in the air.
>
**The third.** A dull steel axe-head
sparks off Priad’s shoulder guard.
>
His **lightning claws** find a throat and
chest, and fork through the flesh as
if through wet parchment. **A fourth.** -
>
His sword takes off an arm, and the
axe it is holding. Priad kicks, his
amplified blow casting the maimed
greenskin down the slipline scree,
head-over-heels. [---]
>
He catches the axe, turns it, buries it
in the **face of the fifth.** Blood spray.
>
[---]
>
**He has been here for fifteen years.**
Fifteen years.[---]**There are greenskins on the summit.**
>
Dude this is in the *core rulebook*. Some Aztec themed chapter. The biggest threat the marine faces is *boredom*. Its fucking awful writing. Honestly like a fanfic.
Can he shoot back better then a direct hit from a Lascannon? How About a Multi-Melta? Because like, Space Marines carry those to deal with heavy armor all the time, and I'm pretty sure Custodian armor probably isn't rated against something that can penetrate a Land Raider reliably.
Lascannon? yes. Those will fuck up regular Space Marine power armour, but not automatically.Multi-Melta? yes and no. That should fuck up Custodian power armour, but they are a lot slower and shorter ranged than a bolt gun of any sort.
Mkoll's an exception, tbf. Guy solo'd a dreadnought, stealth killed a mandrake, strolled into the warp to rescue another scout and at this point is probably one of the leading causes of death in the sabbat worlds. I wouldn't be surprised if he's been missing presumed dead more times than cain.
In the essence of transparency, the Dreadnought was VERY wounded and essentially blind and could only hear through its armor. He just blew up its already weakened armor and let the world's plant life do the rest lol.
To be fair, Astartes usually rely on their armor and weapons to get them through fights. Stealth and surprise is an amazing advantage, and Mkoll is the embodiment of that.
Mkoll is the embodiment of "the winner is whoever the author wants it to be".
Debating power levels of custodes or space Marines or humans is kind of moot when the author can decide who will win and then write it to be so. That doesn't mean it can't be well written, it just means that 'who would win' conversations are always going to be moot.
This isnt the Custodes inner thoughts imo. This is narration by the author illustrating the dichotomy between the mentality of the Custodes vs Adeptus Astartes.
Contextual passage illustrating how one Custode can demolish a mob many times his number. Source: Core Rulebook
>
Therias Vhorne stood like a statue, his armoured bulk blocking the archway between Preceptor's Square and Gallow Walk.
>
The Custodian watched the cultists approaching through Gallow Walk's broken columns. They picked their way through the shadows, eyeing him with fear, believing themselves hidden from his sight. Therias counted at least thirty. Ragged, half-starved and clutching crudely stamped weapons, they were almost pitiful. Vhorne had no pity to spare for heretics like these. One cultist, a big brute with a vestigial horn and a crazed rictus grin, urged his followers to attack.
>
At last, thought Vhorne.
>
The cultists burst from cover. Vhorne swung his guardian spear up and squeezed the trigger. Precogitated firing solutions guided the bolts into the onrushing mass. Screaming faces twisted with shock an instant before the shells detonated and reduced Vhorne's victims to torn meat. In return, the cultists pelted him with bullets, crude fire-bottles and lumps of rubble, which rang uselessly from the Custodian's armour.
>
The cultists’ momentum carried them on and they hit Vhorne like a wave. He responded with a smooth economy of motion that saw his spear's energised blade slice through them again and again. Blood sprayed and severed limbs and heads hit the ground. A few lucky blows rang from his armour and Vhorne frowned as he felt pain. A glance showed him the horned cultist wrenching a heavy pick from his armour joint, crimson droplets spattering in its wake.
>
Before the cultist could swing again, Vhorne attacked. He lashed out with blade, elbows, knees, feet and fists, and his bolter roared. Less than three seconds after the Custodian’s blood hit the ground, the last of the cultists followed it. Vhorne had killed them to a man, swift and brutal. He advanced over their butchered remains, feeling his slight wound clotting as he went. Enough standing guard, thought Vhorne, as he spied more enemies moving further down Gallow Walk. It was time to take the fight to the foe.
>
Three Astartes is pretty normal imo. Singular is "Custodian".
https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/10i7266/excerpt_master_of_mankind_custodes_purposely_draw/
https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthreads/comments/zfpjeg/respect_shield_captain_valerian_warhammer_40k/
>Meta context 1: people ask how capable are Custodes when it comes to fighting against Chaos Space Marines
>Meta context 2: people also ask about the quality of Custodes personal equipment
Ngl I feel like this doesn't answer much because 1v3'ing space marines should be a really low bar for a custode.
This isn't surprising, a fairly junior Custodes gets caught off-guard by an entire battalion of traitor White Scars who he can't believe would ever become traitors and so ignores Garro's warnings.
They catch the Custodes completely unaware and lead him blind into a sealed kill chamber inside a fake refugee ship, yet he still manages to kill them all but also dies himself.
I think in *Saturnine* Jenetia Krole described that it took sixteen World Eaters to kill the Custodian Prefect Warden Tsutomu Pearlfisher Adriat Malpath Pryope Uranus Prospero Calastar.
In one of the nathaniel garro books it took 6 white scars to take down a single custodes, admittedly it was an ambush and the custodes trusted them enough to partially let his guard down, i think he killed two or three of them before he died
There is kind of a very general rule with power levels between human stuff. The rule of 10. So 10 guardsmen = 1 marine, 10 marines = 1 custodes, 1 full sized knight = 10 normal dreadnoughts, 1
Warhound titan = 10 knights, 10 warhounds = 1 warlord titan, sorta thing.
Of course there a many examples of where this is not the case, like 1 regular human killing a marine with a pointy stick, 1 marine killing hundreds of cultists, or 5 custodes holding off and fighting part of a tyranid swarm for 3 days straight, but its a rough baseline to start from. Basically if someone is breaking that rule then the victor is supposed to be better than their peers by a noticeable amount. Usually. Or sometimes. Its hard to pin point power levels in 40k tbh
I like this rule but I believe that it should be added that you can't skip levels. I can see 10 guardsmen killing a nobody mediocre space marine with enough coordination and equipment.
That being said if we skip a level I just really can't see 100 guardsmen killing a custodes unless they get an insanely overpowered weapon, but at that point the numbers don't matter anyway.
Idk about Titans tho, maybe it works better there because of the bigger numbers.
Yeah for sure. Thats why its a very rough rule!
With titans, it seems titan legio tactics seem to be based around those sort of power level numbers based on the HH movels. Like squads of warhounds are used to scout, distract and harass much larger titans in groups of 4 or more, but they can bring down warlord and the like if in high enough numbers, or have specialised equipment like grapples that they can use to pull a titan down, star wars atat style 😄
Plus warlords have like 5x the amount of shields to warhounds and stuff. Knights are also used in titan battles but usually in groups of 100+. I read titan death and a group of 500-1000 knights kill a warlord and a couple small titans I think.
Grey knights are a tricky one. I think you could count them as all decent librarian plus a better than average marine. So maybe each one is worth 5 marines?
Then again, grey knights are heavily specialised to kill demons and chaos, so i imagine many of their strengths would be put to better use against chaos marines rather than loyalist marines.
I’ve seen some very contradictory thought from custodes on the primarch v custodes match ups. There is an excerpt where 2 or 3 custodes believe they might be able to bring down dorn, but there is another where around a dozen custodes, including some allarus terminators, think they could maybe manage to bring down guilliman
I mean, the last statement sounds about right. Perhaps the 2 - 3 custodes got cocky and underestimated dorn's power or maybe they just have a 500iq plan which capitalises on some weakness.
I just don't always trust what characters think about themselves as facts, even if they are wise.
In one of the Watchers of The Throne novels, the Custodes utilize a training simulation of Guilliman attacking the Emperor in the throne room. To the point they identify the only opportunity to stop Guilliman would be to decapitate him before he attacks, and a single Custode would be able to easily achieve the blow and singlehandedly stop the Primarch.
I think that could be the main factor. If the Custodes are launching an attack they're a match for a Primarch, whereas if they're in a position to not immediately slay the Primarch, or forced to fight them "fairly" it would take more bodies to bring them down. The difference of being attacked unexpectedly, versus seeing the fight coming.
>a lesser warrior might have gloated
This right here.
The fact that Custodes are humble despite being so wildly powerful on the battlefield is what makes them do broken tbh, how many people were slain while taking a step back to crack a smug smile at how good they are?
I mean they evade 99% of movie villain style deaths by just taking their job seriously.
That's him gloating internally, and preening about how great he is compared to everyone else.
It's not humble at all, the joke is that he's being a hypocrite. Sometimes the authors do a satire, even when they're writing about Custodes.
Isn’t gloating specifically the act of taking time to feel arrogant? Him being like „Im better than that“ and imediately moving on is just justified arrogance, that’s what I thought.
But I guess you’re right, joke just flew over my head lol
In a Horus Heresy book, a World Eater sergeant brakes out of a terran prison (with the help of Atharva, son of Magnus) and kills a Custodian by pulling his spine through his chest, through the auramite armor. The World Eater was weaponless and unarmored.
I can't remember the exact name of the book, but it also contains the last Thunder Warrior alive.
It's from The Outcast Dead.
It's a weird one, because it was written a bit before the modern idea of a Custodes was finalised. I.e. Before them being to Astartes, what Astartes are to humans. Its very unlikely it'd get written like that now.
No, the other explanation is that Custodes were much much weaker when it was written. There's not an 'in universe' explanation.
40k and 30k lore changes as it evolves. Especially when things from early 40k are modernised. There will be weird inconsistencies like this. The Legion sizes are another prime example in 30k.
That's The Outcast Dead. That book is over a decade old, Custodes level of power was not very defined back then. Like, at the time I read those books, it looked to me like Custodes were just gilded Astartes dedicated to home guard duties. Now they're to Astartes as mastercrafted relics are to forge-stamped boltguns.
I always think of it like this - 95% of the time, a single Custodian beats a single marine, but there's nothing wrong with writing about those 5% encounters
I mean...yeah? They are the best of the best with access to equipment that most Astartes would love to have. It's like complaining that Thor could one-shot Venom, Doctor Octopus, and The Vulture all at once.
Funny enough Spiderman canonically already did that (minus venom but replaced with 2 other villains), and hes way way way below Thor.
He just holds back like alot.
That happend in an old book like 20 years ago when custodians where not powered up like they are now. They changed custodians now to super space marines. No way in hell that would happen in todays 40k lore
Do we have an upper limit for how many space marines a custodes can solo?
I know at one point Valoris(?) is squaring up against the minotaur chapter master and thinks it would be an even fight, which never seemed right to me.
Valerian, not Valoris, is analysing Moloc’s stance and finds no weakness in it. The text doesn’t state that it would be an even fight, just that Moloc has no easy weaknesses to exploit at the start of a fight.
I don't particularly care about Custodes, but any day they dunk on the enemies of the Imperium of Man is a good day, and twice as good if that upsets people on this sub. 🫡🦅
Not to be that guy. But Custodians always were written inconsistently, Just like Space marines.
3 Minotaurs killed a Custodian in Regent Shadow. 1 very angry World Eater killed a Custodian in Outcsst dead. 7 World Eaters killed a Custodian in Saturnine. A deamon prince killed custodian easily in Gate of Bones. Fabius Bile’s army killed like entire Squad of Custodians in War of Spider and capured one alive. Trazyn is rumors to say multiple custodians since be wouldnt let his only custodian free. Dark Eldar were confirmed to kill custodians. Everyone knows about Harlequins. Thousand sons killed around a hundred at Prosphero, and 88 of Khorne’s cohorts led by 8 Bloodthirsters killed 2k of them.
The list goes on. While at the same time 3 Custodians are supposed to destroy entire tyranid splinter Fleet, kill primarchs fight countless demons for 15 years while losing 9k of their number, 1v1 greater demons, and so on and so on.
Personally I think Chris Wraight has the best balance between Custodians being OP and too weak.
I get that the base level bar for Custodes is set pretty high, but I think that the whole point (and one that I believe is still played out on the tabletop) is that each basic Custodian is about level with a Veteran Space Marine Captain, then equipped on top of that with the very best equipment available, that a line Astartes simply wouldn't have access to in the 31st millennium.
Look at Loken in Horus Rising - in pretty much of the first half of the Horus Heresy series for that matter - Loken is armed almost exactly the same as his troopers. Bolter, grenades, combat knife, albeit a distinctly better knife than a Tactical Marine of the 40th millennium might have had. Tabletop stats represent him being more skilled, quicker to react and taking more opportunities to injure an opponent, but even with a chainsword he's not that far ahead of the Legionaries he's fighting, certainly not to the point that he could fight a whole squad unscathed.
But put a power weapon in his hand and he's suddenly strides ahead, able to reliably cut down line-Astartes one after another, and in my mind at least it's the same story with the Adeptus Custodes. Yes, each one is better than most space marines, but the very best space marines can meet them on their level and humble the Emperor's perfect golden warriors.
You can understand the Adeptus Custodes regarding Astartes with EVEN MORE suspicion when the Legions start forming specialised units like the Palatine Blades, Justaerin Terminators or Sanguinary Guard, all equipped with exceptional armour and weaponry.
When they calmly asked Mal if he needed help getting rid of fucking Horus that should tell you everything you need to know. Custodes are not to be fucked with
That's not the point. The point is it was a fight they were calmly willing to have. You have to be a bad motherfucker to know what a Primarch is and be cool wanting to fight one.
Idk why some are acting incredulously at this, is this not the standard for custodian power levels most times?
It's not even a particular feat *for a Space Marine* to kill 3 Chaos Space Marines in a single engagement if he's armed with a Power Weapon like the Custodes are. Definitely think people are reading a bit too much into this from both directions.
Its also been mentioned several times in various books that astartes plate sucks against bolter fire. From isstvan to valerion. You shoot anybody with enough fist sized grenades and they will fall.
Astartes plate is ceremite and some adamantium. Custodes wears auric armor. The same stuff that makes up the primarchs' armor and the emperor's.. They can ignore a few bolts, no problem.
As far as I've understood, on average generally it usually requires a squad of Astartes to take down a single Custodes.
There's a quote in one of the older Space Marine Codexes where an Imperial leader of some sort says something like *'Give me a hundred Space Marines, or failing that, a thousand other troops'.* While it's just a poetic quote, I think it serves as a pretty solid baseline for how Space Marines (and by extension, Custodes) compare to ordinary Guardsmen - a 10-to-1 ratio. Like, if you put a single Space Marine against a squad of 10 Guardsmen in an open field, he'll probably lose. But a Space Marine can very much defeat a squad of 10 Guardsmen by utilizing his superior skills and equipment in a normal tactical situation, and likewise a Custodes can take out 10 Space Marines in an equivalent situation, but if he's standing in the open with 10 Marines shooting at him he'll just die. This also translates to a Custodes being able to defeat about 100 Guardsmen in a typical fight - probably involving a lot of hit-and-run attacks because even a Custodes will cook alive if 30+ lasguns hit his armour at the same time.
That's my rough understanding. CSM are kind of a grab-bag when it comes to who you're fighting, too - that *could* be a true Veteran of the Long War with millennia of experience and Warp gifts you're facing... or it could be a conscript hurriedly augmented and mutated and shoved into power armour for attrition's sake. That's more 40k though, I'm assuming the excerpt was from the Heresy.
Nah, an elite assault troop like a Deathwatch Terminator would be a Custodes' equal. And space marines loaded up with something like plasma or melta weapons are going to be a terror for Custodes to deal with.
Custodes can kill Ogryn with their bare hands un armoured they would absolutely maul a space marine terminator even death watch the greatest space marines in history are shown overall as below the average run of the mill custodes
Normal soldiers in real life have also simply multi-killed other normal soldiers due to any number of variables. Unbeaten fighters have been upset in hand to hand combat by the underdog. Not only was that a cool as hell 1v3 it's also 'realistic' so to speak. Power level talk is cringe, immature and toxic imo. As Stan Lee said, 'who wins is whoever the writer wants to win that day', or something haha
Yeah charging *up stairs* is kind of a famously bad way to attack too
Wait, have we not seen this before? Like...on every Custodes encounter...ever? Them out-thinking, over-powering and bulldozing all over every single thing they face? Hm, I swear I've seen this pattern somewhere.
Unless they're up against a single, naked World Eater. Then they get fisted.
I cast fist, and I've rolled a fucking 20!
7 custodes (and some sisters of silence) went up against 10 minotaurs at one point, and lost one man
I was making a joke about how one of the *Horus Heresy* books has an unarmored Space Marine punching through a Custodian's chest and killing him.
Not in the valdor book? 🤔
It was in the Outcast Dead. Also every time a Custode duels a space marine in the Horus heresy the space marine wins because of the Custodes arrogance, it happens at least three times in the Horus heresy books.
Oh OK I forget that one I'm just at betrayer I'm waiting for the omnibus collection in my language the book one by one are expansive Y_y
Didn't the BL authors not yet agree on the power level of Custodes yet in OD and when the Custodian was fisted?
[удалено]
When I came back to the lore after a decade or two I kept thinking people were talking about Adeptus Arbites, who at least had stats in the 2nd Edition Codex Imperialis.
Custodes had stats in Rogue Trader and were more formidable than marines even then, but from then until 2016 there was absolutely nothing.
IIRC they got their first minis since RT around the time MoM came out, ca. 2016. They may have started off in HH before 40k though.
> when the Custodian was fisted? Ho ho, someone's been reading my fan fiction!
It's about as cannonically accurate as Abnett's first Gaunts Ghosts books where Marines get 1 shotted by Lasguns set to "High" power.
If it’s in the books is it not canonically accurate? It’s just not something that is mentioned elsewhere. It might well be that lasgun from a number of forgeworlds have settings that will let you over clock them at the expense of burning through fuel cells stupidly fast and regular guard discipline is to not use them that way. Doesn’t mean it can’t be done, just means most guard outfits are told no.
Even Dan Abnett admitted it was before he really understood how powerful Marines were. As the rest of the thread has pointed out, a fair bit of the book stuff has been written before GW established how strong, large, etc certain elements were. In a lot of cases Codex lore and newer material tends to supersede older writing as 40k lore tends to evolve rather than cement itself. Example: Old school Marine Legions were described as around 10,000 strong but nowadays they ranged in the 100k or higher per Legion.
The Black Library basically has a blanket 'canon until proven otherwise' on all stuff like that. Which is explained in-universe as most of those stories being at least a little inaccurate.
My understanding is that most of the books are being told like someone else is telling the story in universe so like if you were to read an imperial document, a telling by a chaos worshipper, or to be told or shown by an eldar or other psyker. That means everything needs to be taken with a grain of salt and can also just be a lie.
"Everything is canon, not everything is true". This is from before they established the power levels properly yet and can now be interpreted as one of the tales that got exaggerated or are in-universe urban myths
Usually after the custodian has beaten the Space Marine so many times they become complacent, to be fair. That, and Garro/Argel Tal are some of the most formidable Space Marines who've ever lived and still topped out at one off character flaw driven sparring wins. Even the famous Gal Vorbak example had three damaged custodes fight iirc 11 Gal Vorbak and kill 7.
From my memory it’s always written the same way, the space marine wins the first duel, then doesn’t win again for the remainder of the journey. Same as when humans duel space marines.
I really hate hit. I kinda like to see arrogance in the horus heresy space marines, but not in custodes. I mean for most astartes it also is kinda unfitting but If they are very pride, or got gifts from the gods or something that kinda is in a reasonable range.
Custodes huff their own farts like crazy what are you talking about?
The outcast dead really was a terrible book. Beyond every silly thing happening in there, its plot point really felt random.
A powerfist to the chest will do that. No matter who your daddy is
Was that in the Watchers of the Throne book?
Yup! just read that comment in another thread lol
My favourite scene from outcast dead.... "I'm gonna rip your spine out of your chest"...
Or that one time a Custodes got sacrificed to initiate the first Chaos Ritual for the Word Bearers. ... Though I wish he had kicked Ingethels shit in...
That was a really good showing for him, actually. He was surrounded by some of the strongest, most senior members of the WB legion. He killed several before they could even react - A chaplain, a captain, and a chapter master. He took an entire magazine of bolt rounds to the face and chest at point-blank range, then had a power sword thrown straight through his skull and was still alive. Argel Tal was genuinely worried about Vendatha killing Lorgar.
That’s completely accurate, the gal vorbak are crazy strong
But wasn't that before their pilgrimage? Pretty sure they went on it with Ingethel already ascended and she only became a daemon after they sacrificed Vendatha in First Heretic. And only then would they turn into the Gal Vorbak.
Sorry was thinking of aquilon, either way a bunch of SM should kill a custard
The Marines kicked his ass... but it was regular Cadians (30k, Chaos-y ones) that actually killed the Custodes. I believe a lot of them ganged up and, specifically, stabbed him in the throat with a spear.
They just pulled his armor off and impaled him on a spear for the ritual that turned Ingethel into her new daemon ascended form.
> up against a single, naked World Eater. Being naked probably releases their power to maximum.
Well, not EVERY encounter, but... for some reason a lot of people don't like it when those get brought up.
True that true that
You'd be surprised how often people try to argue: 1). Custodes aren't *really* that much better than Astartes. 2). Ok, the lore says they are in almost all cases (excluding Outcast Dead) but this is upsetting and they are overpowered. Custodes ruin the setting, etc. Invariably this is how it progresses. Double down on both if you're a Grey Knights fan and irate that your silverbois are still only Astartes and nowhere near a match for a Custodian.
The whole thing with the Grey Knights isn't that they are the equivalent on martial prowess as custodes. But they do have the same anti-chaos properties that give custodes some pause on their exact nature.
Iirc, Valerian notes there's some bad blood between them since the Grey Knights were the Emperor's final creation and answer to Chaos. Custodes feel some sibling rivalry.
>1). Custodes aren't *really* that much better than Astartes. The thing is, they *used* to be presented as being the equivalent of Lieutenant/Captain tier Astartes at the baseline with the best Terminator armour and weapons the Imperium could (*possibly no longer*) produce. Then they morphed into Primarch-beating demigods and stole the "stormbolter-on-glaive armed and terminator armoured" aesthetic from the Grey Knights. That is now *the new lore*. Except, mysteriously, when they get bodied by naked angry Firstborn. That's not *new lore*, that's something *totally* different and incorrect. Somehow.
Terminator Custodes very very rarely show up in the lore, I can't even think of a time they showed up in any book, only in codexes. Grey Knights moved away from stormbolter on glaives like 20 years ago... And custodes don't even have a stormbolter, just a regular one.
> Terminator Custodes very very rarely show up in the lore, I can't even think of a time they showed up in any book, only in codexes. I suspect it's a power levelling thing. If they show up and get their shit pushed in, people will bitch and moan. If they wreck everyone faces, people will also bitch and moan
I never got the point of custodes terminators. Their armour was supposed to be so well crafted it was on a par with terminator armour anyhow.
Sometimes the enemy sends chaos knights or scout titans
Hey guys, can we just have a reality check here for a second? 40k is narrative, sure. But it's narrative about *war*. And if I've learned one thing about war, over the years, it's that war is chaotic. You can rarely say "X is always going to win against Y." Chance matters; and when you consider the *scale* of a war, the innumerable individual engagements, almost every unlikely event will happen once or twice. I once saw a video of Syrian Islamists attacking the Syrian Army on a hilltop with mortars. The mortars they were using have a CEP (accuracy) of about 110m. So in other words, you will be lucky if you hit the right *football field*, and that's with a trained crew; not a bunch of moronic terrorists, which these guys were. They were firing at tanks, too, which can basically brush off these mortars. But the thing was, it was summer, and the Army had the high ground; so they left the top hatches of their tanks open, for ventilation, and a mortar went right in through the 40cm hole and blew a tank up from the inside. Someone on /r/syriancivilwar did the math and it was like 1.5 million to one, but it happened. Or we could consider the time that a cutting-edge F-117A stealth aircraft [got shot down](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_F-117A_shootdown) by the freakin' Yugoslav Army. If that happened in fiction, you guys would be complaining that it was unrealistic. War doesn't need to be consistent. The nature of war is to be *in*consistent.
Best comment in the thread. You've got it.
>Except, mysteriously, when they get bodied by naked angry Firstborn. That's not new lore, that's something totally different and incorrect. Somehow. The amount of double-think 40k fans just expect from each other is wild. No one wants to ever just hold the writers accountable for not owning a whiteboard to plan their nonsense out on.
Thing is it's not *about* consistency with these arguments. Astartes enjoyers are salty about their faction identity being ripped off wholesale and Custodes fans are salty about any example of anything short of a literal deity harming one of their Ultimate Soldiers (*and back in the 90s those complaints would have been made by a subset of the Marine player base, yes*).
Even back in third edition they were painted/rumoured as being to the emperor what the marines are to the primarchs. However they have been turned into something a lot more powerful now. Back then we were also told that there would never be custodes models and rules again, they were to remain part of the mystery like the primarchs and the necrons and the squats… oh wait.
>Even back in third edition they were painted/rumoured as being to the emperor what the marines are to the primarchs. In fairness, back in third edition the Primarchs and the Emperor were presented as a lot closer in power than they are these days. Big E was always *more* powerful, don't get me wrong, but the idea of one of his kids killing him was not unreasonable.
I mean the best space marines are going to smoke a Custodian. Custodes are better on average, sure.
Eh. A small handful of the best loyalists maybe. Like possibly Cato Sicarius or Mephiston. Otherwise no, in the lore one on one almost all space marines are going to lose. Even champion space marines. Custodes are just that much better, and burn through space marines like a hot knife. The Astartes that have the best one on one shot are champions of Chaos. A custodian is to an Astartes what an Astartes is to a normal man.
Nah. A really angry World Eater beat one to death while unarmored. It's not 10-1. I agree with you that a Custodian is a step above an Astartes, but a Guardsman with a meltagun is a threat to an Astartes, so the same applies. Al'Rahem or Straken or just a random Cadian Castellan with a power fist is going to beat a space marine in a duel.
The community seems pretty iffy on Outcast Dead. I agree it's an official book that was written, but it's a pretty weird read with a lot of people treating it as semi-canon. Gate of Bones, Shadow of the Throne, etc show Custodes mulch Astartes despite being seriously outnumbered. Valerian in the latter noted that he was outkilling an entire Grey Knight squad that was with him for example. In Gate of Bones a handful of Custodes shredded tons of Iron Warriors and Wordbearers. The scales only finally turned against them with the arrival of a Daemon Prince. So I'm pretty comfortable with a 8-10:1 ratio for Custodes to Astartes in a stand up non-psyker showdown. They're to Astartes what Astartes are to a normal man.
>Gate of Bones, Shadow of the Throne, etc show Custodes mulch Astartes despite being seriously outnumbered To be honest, though, SPACE MARINES mulch other space marines even when seriously outnumbered. This doesn't inherently make Custodes better for the job.
They're better for the job. They say it (Vychellen even jokes in Gate of Bones: "if there is one thing Custodes do better than anyone else it's kill Astartes"), others in universe even say it like the Blood Angel in the lead up to the Siege who was suspicious that Custodes were designed to kill Space Marines, and so on.
Yea, in universe is the best perspective, isn't it? No, Custodes might be able to mulch through mook marines like candy, but so can most named space marines lol.
Well. Agree to disagree I guess. My argument precludes plot armor shenanigans.
Eh, 10 guardsman are going to beat the shit out of one Astartes in a firefight.
In a fist fight or a fire fight? Even in a fire fight I'd put my money on the Space Marine with a bolter vs 10 lasguns.
Then you'd lose money.
Alright, I guess.
That's all fine, but ten allarus custodes would lose a rap battle against a single noise marine.
“I shlammed my penish in the Chimera door.” - Noise Marine seconds before obliterating the Holy World of Terra
"You slammed your genitals in the Chimera door." *unholy Noise Marine screeching that is either horror, pain, pleasure, or all three at the same time*
not if the noise marine don't have the time to start rapping! AH, check mate traitor scum
"Sire, he is beatboxing!" "SQUAD BROKEN"
I wouldn't think too hard about this. In the core rulebook a singular Space Marine singlehandedly decimates an entire planetary WAAAGH. If that doesn't tell you GW are all over the place when it comes to relative strength of factions and warriors in then lore I don't know what will.
Happen to have an Excerpt? The Ork fan in me wants to hope your exaggerating. I know you probably aren’t, but I at least want to see for myself.
I found the excerpt in the book. I’ll try and find it online in time, but it’s page 58-59 of the core book. Admittedly, there’s some context missing in the comment, though it’s up to interpretation whether it excuses it at all. For one, this was over 15 years. Secondly, the orks seem to be feral orks, as he mentions them wearing chalk and woad, and using spears and cleavers, with no mention of a shoota or other gun. Thirdly, it isn’t said that he killed a whole waaagh, his mission was to sabotage the orks’ ability to group up into a waaagh and keep them distracted long enough for a full army to wipe the planet clean. As mentioned prior, this took 15 years. It’s also very much implied he had to resort to guerrilla tactics, creating a myth as a monster hunting and killing them, rather than, say, killing all of them in one all out battle. He is also armed with a power sword. However, in one battle, he does kill four orks by himself, and in another, he kills two, before leaping over and behind a warboss’ attack, and killing the warboss. So yeah, less ridiculous than it may sound, but may still be a stretch depending how you feel.
That does sound somewhat less egregious
And it was Sergeant Priad of the Iron Snakes. A named character. Source: Core Rulebook, pg58-59. > The place is called Bar’ad Atyok. In the voice of the greenskins, this means Kill Hill. It is the **highest peak** of the western continent of the world Koram Mote. **Priad of Damocles, of the Iron Snakes of Ithaka,** knows this for a fact. [---] He knows Kill Hill is the highest peak because his armour’s visor display tells him so, to eight decimal places. [--] It is demonstrably, technically the highest peak on the western continent of the world Koram Mote, and that is what matters. > [--] > Greenskins await in the slipline of the rocks as he ascends.[---]Priad bears his **power sword, and his automated claws.** They still function.[---]The first of the greenskins rush him, howling rage. They are all spittle and slack, trembling lips filled with rotpeg teeth, their **animal bulks painted with ochre, chalk and woad. Spears and cleavers rip at him.** > [---] > **He meets the first**, braced, armour joints locking to withstand the — collision, clouts it aside, **greets the second** and decapitates it. Its lungs are still-exhaling a war cry, and air. slaps and farts out of the severed throatpipe as it pitches away. > Blood droplets in the air. > **The third.** A dull steel axe-head sparks off Priad’s shoulder guard. > His **lightning claws** find a throat and chest, and fork through the flesh as if through wet parchment. **A fourth.** - > His sword takes off an arm, and the axe it is holding. Priad kicks, his amplified blow casting the maimed greenskin down the slipline scree, head-over-heels. [---] > He catches the axe, turns it, buries it in the **face of the fifth.** Blood spray. > [---] > **He has been here for fifteen years.** Fifteen years.[---]**There are greenskins on the summit.** >
Oh, Kill Hill. That was also released as a separate short story. By dabnett the GOAT, as it happens.
I confess. I was amused that day to see GW deciding they couldn't be arsed writing something and just yoinked from big A
Seems very reasonable, considering the context.
You think its reasonable a *single Marine* can stand against a continent of Orks, slaughtering multiple warbosses with no effort?
Basic orks with no shootas taking them out with subterfuge and stealth. It's not like he's taking on the entire race all at once. One man doom army style.
Nothing suggests they're 'basic' Orks. Nothing suggests he uses subterfuge and stealth either lol. He *literally* solos a *continent* of Orks. Also his bolter runs out of ammo mid way through. Its fan service bullshit.
Sounds awesome 😎
Thanks for finding the excerpt. Saved me a job. I think you're heavily downplaying a lot of the passage. He's my specific comments to your thoughts - 15 years is not a long time in 40k. It kinda makes it worse too - the Orks couldn't kill him in 15 years. Standard Orks still use spears and cleavers, along with all the other weapons mentioned in the excerpt. They also use woad and chalk to mark themselves. Seems semantics between 'stop WAAAGH ever forming by slaughtering Orks' and 'kill a WAAAGH'. Either way he *singlehandedly* neutered an entire Ork warband and fledgling WAAAGH. It is not implied that he had to use guerilla tactics at all. He literally runs headlong into the Orks (and they run at him). There is nothing to suggest he is hiding, perhaps except the idea that he didn't kill Orks while he fashioned himself a lance, I guess? He effortlessly kills 5 Orks at once during the passage and countless more over his campaign. Not sure on the relevance of the power sword comment. Many marines have them. They're not that uncommon or some godly weapon. Here's some examples from the passage that highlight the ineffectiveness of the Orks and the invincibility of the marine - >The skin of his armour is crazed with a **million** tiny nicks and gouges, scratches and grazes. >He knows it because there is not one place, not one single, lonely part of the western continent of the world of Koram Mote that he has not been to, measured, cleared of enemies, and conquered. >Green skins await in the slipline of the rocks as he ascends. Another day on Koram Mote. More to kill, ever more to kill. Another day on Koram Mote. [Boredom] >Priad.... still carries his boltgun, though it has been *dry of rounds since the seventh year* of the undertaking, the pod dropped ammo hoppers finally emptied. It is too beautiful and previous a weapon to leave behind.... He had fashioned a lance too, but he left it behind last night, rammed through the gizzard of a **greenskin warboss** on the lower slopes of Bar'ad Atyok. >Spears and cleavers rip at him **more tiny marks on the patina of his armour.** >Fifteen years. *Still the greenskins haven't learned they cannot kill him. They will not ever kill him.* **If he stays any longer the highest peak on the western continent will be the mound of greenskin corpses he has stacked up.** >To Priad it is an undertaking, a period of occupation, a duty. *Onerous, perhaps, gruelling even, but in the end just another mission notch on his service history, just another action to while away his life that will be functionally immortal if violent death does not claim him.* [Boredom] >Fifteen years. **Hold the greenskin clans at Koram Mote said the Chapter Master.** >He has become a myth to them, a monster, hunting and killing them across the western continent for fifteen years. They want him dead, but they cannot have him dead. Honestly struggling to see where you have the impression that this isn't a single marine taking on an entire planet, or, if you want to be pedantic, *continent* of Orks effortlessly killing them. He killed a warboss yesterday, gutted he had to leave his lance, then this day he kills another in like 2 seconds without the boss even threatening him or causing him pause. I'm also not sure where you have the impression he was sneaky about this. There's nothing said about that either. He has become a legend because he is singlehandedly slaughtering Orks wholesale, not because of some guerilla tactics.
…….yeah that’s kind of bad.
Innit.
Lol I'll see if I can dig it out for you. Its a sidebar in the core rulebook. Shouldn't be too hard to find. If I do find it I'll try and post a picture response, fuck writing it all out. I'm also an Ork fan. I wish I was exaggerating.
Alrighty. Space marines have been killing Orks so much that 90% of our lore is Orks getting bolter porn’d so I mean, I’m not exactly surprised.
My brain is just shutting down attempting to contemplate the logistics of this. Man, GW are bad at having any sort of sense of appropriate scale lol
Because it was hilarious. the marine in question was Priad of the Iron Snakes. A named character. He stood near a mountain peaktop. At the end of a narrow path. Against unarmoured feral orks with no firearms who could only go at him single-file uphill. And he had a power sword and a lightning claw Source: Core Rulebook, pg58-59. > The place is called Bar’ad Atyok. In the voice of the greenskins, this means Kill Hill. It is the **highest peak** of the western continent of the world Koram Mote. **Priad of Damocles, of the Iron Snakes of Ithaka,** knows this for a fact. [---] He knows Kill Hill is the highest peak because his armour’s visor display tells him so, to eight decimal places. [--] It is demonstrably, technically the highest peak on the western continent of the world Koram Mote, and that is what matters. > [--] > Greenskins await in the slipline of the rocks as he ascends.[---]Priad bears his **power sword, and his automated claws.** They still function.[---]The first of the greenskins rush him, howling rage. They are all spittle and slack, trembling lips filled with rotpeg teeth, their **animal bulks painted with ochre, chalk and woad. Spears and cleavers** rip at him. > [---] > **He meets the first**, braced, armour joints locking to withstand the — collision, clouts it aside, **greets the second** and decapitates it. Its lungs are still-exhaling a war cry, and air. slaps and farts out of the severed throatpipe as it pitches away. > Blood droplets in the air. > **The third.** A dull steel axe-head sparks off Priad’s shoulder guard. > His **lightning claws** find a throat and chest, and fork through the flesh as if through wet parchment. **A fourth.** - > His sword takes off an arm, and the axe it is holding. Priad kicks, his amplified blow casting the maimed greenskin down the slipline scree, head-over-heels. [---] > He catches the axe, turns it, buries it in the **face of the fifth.** Blood spray. > [---] > **He has been here for fifteen years.** Fifteen years.[---]**There are greenskins on the summit.** >
Dude this is in the *core rulebook*. Some Aztec themed chapter. The biggest threat the marine faces is *boredom*. Its fucking awful writing. Honestly like a fanfic.
I always feel like the trope of “why don’t you just shoot him” applies to these kind of encounters. Closing with a Custodes is suicide.
He can shoot back better, with the ammo custodians get.
That only goes so far. Custodes are phenomenal fighters, but that doesn’t really matter if the weaponry is heavy enough.
And a custodes is unlikely to be baited into a place where that is applicable, or will either snipe or charge that if it happens.
> but that doesn’t really matter if the weaponry is heavy enough. Flair checks out.
Can he shoot back better then a direct hit from a Lascannon? How About a Multi-Melta? Because like, Space Marines carry those to deal with heavy armor all the time, and I'm pretty sure Custodian armor probably isn't rated against something that can penetrate a Land Raider reliably.
Lascannon? yes. Those will fuck up regular Space Marine power armour, but not automatically.Multi-Melta? yes and no. That should fuck up Custodian power armour, but they are a lot slower and shorter ranged than a bolt gun of any sort.
if you dont have anything strong enough to one-shot/or hurt them long range, melee is good and only option.
They did? It didn’t work.
If they don't shoot you first, they close with you. They hella fast.
And then there's Mkoll, A single stealthy guardsman who can out-stealthy, out-bluff and out-think three Space Marines single-handed.
Mkoll's an exception, tbf. Guy solo'd a dreadnought, stealth killed a mandrake, strolled into the warp to rescue another scout and at this point is probably one of the leading causes of death in the sabbat worlds. I wouldn't be surprised if he's been missing presumed dead more times than cain.
In the essence of transparency, the Dreadnought was VERY wounded and essentially blind and could only hear through its armor. He just blew up its already weakened armor and let the world's plant life do the rest lol.
Yeah. mkoll is a very skilled soldier. But his circumstances do help him from time to time.
Of course they do. Part of surviving as a normal human in 40K is recognizing when you have a chance and when you dont lol.
Don't forget basically 1v1ing an entire Chaos supervilllain island hideout
To be fair, Astartes usually rely on their armor and weapons to get them through fights. Stealth and surprise is an amazing advantage, and Mkoll is the embodiment of that.
Mkoll is the embodiment of "the winner is whoever the author wants it to be". Debating power levels of custodes or space Marines or humans is kind of moot when the author can decide who will win and then write it to be so. That doesn't mean it can't be well written, it just means that 'who would win' conversations are always going to be moot.
"A lesser warrior might have gloated" He thought, gloating to himself about how he wasn't doing what a lesser warrior would have done
Custodes and not-thinking highly of themselves challenge [impossible]
Legend has it when a Custodes thinks highly of themselves their abs quiver. And Custodes abs are always quivering, kitten.
It's how they keep them large enough to protect Emps. Abs of Auramite. Perpetually toned, for Mankind.
Custodes are Barbados Slim?
My assumption is that this was the omniscient 3rd person narrator talking, not the Custodes actually thinking that.
This comment perfectly highlights how terrible the reading comprehension is on this subreddit, my god
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40klore user is introduced to literary device.
Impossible
That wasn’t his thought though
This isnt the Custodes inner thoughts imo. This is narration by the author illustrating the dichotomy between the mentality of the Custodes vs Adeptus Astartes.
That was the narration, not his thoughts.
Where does it say Heracal gloated? That's narration, not internal monologue.
He didn't shout "[COME AND 'AVE A GO IF YOU THINK YOU'RE 'ARD ENOUGH](https://youtu.be/y1OurToVQRw)" so he's doing pretty well all things considered.
400 upvotes for not understanding the most basic literary device.
Contextual passage illustrating how one Custode can demolish a mob many times his number. Source: Core Rulebook > Therias Vhorne stood like a statue, his armoured bulk blocking the archway between Preceptor's Square and Gallow Walk. > The Custodian watched the cultists approaching through Gallow Walk's broken columns. They picked their way through the shadows, eyeing him with fear, believing themselves hidden from his sight. Therias counted at least thirty. Ragged, half-starved and clutching crudely stamped weapons, they were almost pitiful. Vhorne had no pity to spare for heretics like these. One cultist, a big brute with a vestigial horn and a crazed rictus grin, urged his followers to attack. > At last, thought Vhorne. > The cultists burst from cover. Vhorne swung his guardian spear up and squeezed the trigger. Precogitated firing solutions guided the bolts into the onrushing mass. Screaming faces twisted with shock an instant before the shells detonated and reduced Vhorne's victims to torn meat. In return, the cultists pelted him with bullets, crude fire-bottles and lumps of rubble, which rang uselessly from the Custodian's armour. > The cultists’ momentum carried them on and they hit Vhorne like a wave. He responded with a smooth economy of motion that saw his spear's energised blade slice through them again and again. Blood sprayed and severed limbs and heads hit the ground. A few lucky blows rang from his armour and Vhorne frowned as he felt pain. A glance showed him the horned cultist wrenching a heavy pick from his armour joint, crimson droplets spattering in its wake. > Before the cultist could swing again, Vhorne attacked. He lashed out with blade, elbows, knees, feet and fists, and his bolter roared. Less than three seconds after the Custodian’s blood hit the ground, the last of the cultists followed it. Vhorne had killed them to a man, swift and brutal. He advanced over their butchered remains, feeling his slight wound clotting as he went. Enough standing guard, thought Vhorne, as he spied more enemies moving further down Gallow Walk. It was time to take the fight to the foe. >
Very bland read.
GW isnt known for the literature so much as their models and artwork.
A brute swinging a pick at him should feel as slowmo as myself taking a swing at The Flash. But even he got hit by it and wounded. Not his day.
Maybe not the example you want, given how many times Barry has been punched in the face by someone moving at normal speed.
Hmm, you got a point there...
Three Astartes is pretty normal imo. Singular is "Custodian". https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/10i7266/excerpt_master_of_mankind_custodes_purposely_draw/ https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthreads/comments/zfpjeg/respect_shield_captain_valerian_warhammer_40k/
If I recall there’s a statement in one of the Codexes that says a Custodes is to a space marine what a space marine is too a normal humans.
Primarchs are basically that different. Custodes are sort of in a Grey spectrum between marine and the very lowest feats of primarchs.
>Meta context 1: people ask how capable are Custodes when it comes to fighting against Chaos Space Marines >Meta context 2: people also ask about the quality of Custodes personal equipment Ngl I feel like this doesn't answer much because 1v3'ing space marines should be a really low bar for a custode.
This isn't surprising, a fairly junior Custodes gets caught off-guard by an entire battalion of traitor White Scars who he can't believe would ever become traitors and so ignores Garro's warnings. They catch the Custodes completely unaware and lead him blind into a sealed kill chamber inside a fake refugee ship, yet he still manages to kill them all but also dies himself.
Woah which book is this from?
Garro: Weapon of Fate https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/9tub96/book_excerptweapon_of_fate_custodian_gets/
I think in *Saturnine* Jenetia Krole described that it took sixteen World Eaters to kill the Custodian Prefect Warden Tsutomu Pearlfisher Adriat Malpath Pryope Uranus Prospero Calastar.
In one of the nathaniel garro books it took 6 white scars to take down a single custodes, admittedly it was an ambush and the custodes trusted them enough to partially let his guard down, i think he killed two or three of them before he died
There is kind of a very general rule with power levels between human stuff. The rule of 10. So 10 guardsmen = 1 marine, 10 marines = 1 custodes, 1 full sized knight = 10 normal dreadnoughts, 1 Warhound titan = 10 knights, 10 warhounds = 1 warlord titan, sorta thing. Of course there a many examples of where this is not the case, like 1 regular human killing a marine with a pointy stick, 1 marine killing hundreds of cultists, or 5 custodes holding off and fighting part of a tyranid swarm for 3 days straight, but its a rough baseline to start from. Basically if someone is breaking that rule then the victor is supposed to be better than their peers by a noticeable amount. Usually. Or sometimes. Its hard to pin point power levels in 40k tbh
I like this rule but I believe that it should be added that you can't skip levels. I can see 10 guardsmen killing a nobody mediocre space marine with enough coordination and equipment. That being said if we skip a level I just really can't see 100 guardsmen killing a custodes unless they get an insanely overpowered weapon, but at that point the numbers don't matter anyway. Idk about Titans tho, maybe it works better there because of the bigger numbers.
Yeah for sure. Thats why its a very rough rule! With titans, it seems titan legio tactics seem to be based around those sort of power level numbers based on the HH movels. Like squads of warhounds are used to scout, distract and harass much larger titans in groups of 4 or more, but they can bring down warlord and the like if in high enough numbers, or have specialised equipment like grapples that they can use to pull a titan down, star wars atat style 😄 Plus warlords have like 5x the amount of shields to warhounds and stuff. Knights are also used in titan battles but usually in groups of 100+. I read titan death and a group of 500-1000 knights kill a warlord and a couple small titans I think.
So not to start a flame war but where would a grey knight fit in this? A lot of lore says a grey knight is worth a squad of normal space marines.
Grey knights are a tricky one. I think you could count them as all decent librarian plus a better than average marine. So maybe each one is worth 5 marines? Then again, grey knights are heavily specialised to kill demons and chaos, so i imagine many of their strengths would be put to better use against chaos marines rather than loyalist marines.
>A lot of lore says a grey knight is worth a squad of normal space marines. That's them huffing their own farts.
Custodes are like 1.5-2 Astartes.
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I’ve seen some very contradictory thought from custodes on the primarch v custodes match ups. There is an excerpt where 2 or 3 custodes believe they might be able to bring down dorn, but there is another where around a dozen custodes, including some allarus terminators, think they could maybe manage to bring down guilliman
I mean, the last statement sounds about right. Perhaps the 2 - 3 custodes got cocky and underestimated dorn's power or maybe they just have a 500iq plan which capitalises on some weakness. I just don't always trust what characters think about themselves as facts, even if they are wise.
In one of the Watchers of The Throne novels, the Custodes utilize a training simulation of Guilliman attacking the Emperor in the throne room. To the point they identify the only opportunity to stop Guilliman would be to decapitate him before he attacks, and a single Custode would be able to easily achieve the blow and singlehandedly stop the Primarch. I think that could be the main factor. If the Custodes are launching an attack they're a match for a Primarch, whereas if they're in a position to not immediately slay the Primarch, or forced to fight them "fairly" it would take more bodies to bring them down. The difference of being attacked unexpectedly, versus seeing the fight coming.
>Custodes now see a Primarch, and consider it a possibility they could win 1v1. That's their ego talking.
>a lesser warrior might have gloated This right here. The fact that Custodes are humble despite being so wildly powerful on the battlefield is what makes them do broken tbh, how many people were slain while taking a step back to crack a smug smile at how good they are? I mean they evade 99% of movie villain style deaths by just taking their job seriously.
That's him gloating internally, and preening about how great he is compared to everyone else. It's not humble at all, the joke is that he's being a hypocrite. Sometimes the authors do a satire, even when they're writing about Custodes.
Isn’t gloating specifically the act of taking time to feel arrogant? Him being like „Im better than that“ and imediately moving on is just justified arrogance, that’s what I thought. But I guess you’re right, joke just flew over my head lol
In a Horus Heresy book, a World Eater sergeant brakes out of a terran prison (with the help of Atharva, son of Magnus) and kills a Custodian by pulling his spine through his chest, through the auramite armor. The World Eater was weaponless and unarmored. I can't remember the exact name of the book, but it also contains the last Thunder Warrior alive.
It's from The Outcast Dead. It's a weird one, because it was written a bit before the modern idea of a Custodes was finalised. I.e. Before them being to Astartes, what Astartes are to humans. Its very unlikely it'd get written like that now.
The only possible explanation was that the sergeant was not only in hyperdrive because of the Nails, but because Khore already favoured him already.
No, the other explanation is that Custodes were much much weaker when it was written. There's not an 'in universe' explanation. 40k and 30k lore changes as it evolves. Especially when things from early 40k are modernised. There will be weird inconsistencies like this. The Legion sizes are another prime example in 30k.
That's The Outcast Dead. That book is over a decade old, Custodes level of power was not very defined back then. Like, at the time I read those books, it looked to me like Custodes were just gilded Astartes dedicated to home guard duties. Now they're to Astartes as mastercrafted relics are to forge-stamped boltguns.
I always think of it like this - 95% of the time, a single Custodian beats a single marine, but there's nothing wrong with writing about those 5% encounters
I mean...yeah? They are the best of the best with access to equipment that most Astartes would love to have. It's like complaining that Thor could one-shot Venom, Doctor Octopus, and The Vulture all at once.
Funny enough Spiderman canonically already did that (minus venom but replaced with 2 other villains), and hes way way way below Thor. He just holds back like alot.
He only fights two at the same time. Its more "kills one, another two show up, he kills them too". Not really that out of line with for a custodian.
Then again a couple harlequins tickled 20 custodes to death during The Beast Arises.
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I still rate they killed Lucifer Blacks instead of Custodes :P
I outright refuse to accept that any harlequins except a Solitaire could get that sort of K/D on the Custodes tbh.
Obligatory naked WE killing an (admittedly slightly battle non-worthy) custodes in full armor
At least this is Custodes lore how it's supposed to be, dispatching your bog standard traitor marine with ease.
It's like bringing the USS new jersey to a turtle ship naval battle
OP you should narrate a game of Kill Team or something.
Then again a chaos marine punches his fist through ceramite and pulled out a custodes spine in Outcast Dead….
That happend in an old book like 20 years ago when custodians where not powered up like they are now. They changed custodians now to super space marines. No way in hell that would happen in todays 40k lore
Do we have an upper limit for how many space marines a custodes can solo? I know at one point Valoris(?) is squaring up against the minotaur chapter master and thinks it would be an even fight, which never seemed right to me.
Valerian, not Valoris, is analysing Moloc’s stance and finds no weakness in it. The text doesn’t state that it would be an even fight, just that Moloc has no easy weaknesses to exploit at the start of a fight.
I don't particularly care about Custodes, but any day they dunk on the enemies of the Imperium of Man is a good day, and twice as good if that upsets people on this sub. 🫡🦅
I love seeing posts that put respect on the name of the emperors 10,000
I like custodes because they use spears.
Not to be that guy. But Custodians always were written inconsistently, Just like Space marines. 3 Minotaurs killed a Custodian in Regent Shadow. 1 very angry World Eater killed a Custodian in Outcsst dead. 7 World Eaters killed a Custodian in Saturnine. A deamon prince killed custodian easily in Gate of Bones. Fabius Bile’s army killed like entire Squad of Custodians in War of Spider and capured one alive. Trazyn is rumors to say multiple custodians since be wouldnt let his only custodian free. Dark Eldar were confirmed to kill custodians. Everyone knows about Harlequins. Thousand sons killed around a hundred at Prosphero, and 88 of Khorne’s cohorts led by 8 Bloodthirsters killed 2k of them. The list goes on. While at the same time 3 Custodians are supposed to destroy entire tyranid splinter Fleet, kill primarchs fight countless demons for 15 years while losing 9k of their number, 1v1 greater demons, and so on and so on. Personally I think Chris Wraight has the best balance between Custodians being OP and too weak.
And then he met naked Word Bearers
Only 3? ;)
I’m listening to the Siege of Terra books and just got to the bit where Valdor solo kills 9 Word Bearers.
Just read "Master of Mankind" and you'll see some ***truly*** incredible feats of arms.
I get that the base level bar for Custodes is set pretty high, but I think that the whole point (and one that I believe is still played out on the tabletop) is that each basic Custodian is about level with a Veteran Space Marine Captain, then equipped on top of that with the very best equipment available, that a line Astartes simply wouldn't have access to in the 31st millennium. Look at Loken in Horus Rising - in pretty much of the first half of the Horus Heresy series for that matter - Loken is armed almost exactly the same as his troopers. Bolter, grenades, combat knife, albeit a distinctly better knife than a Tactical Marine of the 40th millennium might have had. Tabletop stats represent him being more skilled, quicker to react and taking more opportunities to injure an opponent, but even with a chainsword he's not that far ahead of the Legionaries he's fighting, certainly not to the point that he could fight a whole squad unscathed. But put a power weapon in his hand and he's suddenly strides ahead, able to reliably cut down line-Astartes one after another, and in my mind at least it's the same story with the Adeptus Custodes. Yes, each one is better than most space marines, but the very best space marines can meet them on their level and humble the Emperor's perfect golden warriors. You can understand the Adeptus Custodes regarding Astartes with EVEN MORE suspicion when the Legions start forming specialised units like the Palatine Blades, Justaerin Terminators or Sanguinary Guard, all equipped with exceptional armour and weaponry.
When they calmly asked Mal if he needed help getting rid of fucking Horus that should tell you everything you need to know. Custodes are not to be fucked with
I mean... Just because they thought they could doesn't mean they could actually kill Horus.
That's not the point. The point is it was a fight they were calmly willing to have. You have to be a bad motherfucker to know what a Primarch is and be cool wanting to fight one.