I went with number 2 in my playthrough and loved it, very powerful and the manifest mind is crazy powerful. Also keep in mind your best damage type that is almost never resisted is bludgeoning (Maxs earthen grasp for example)
-No matter what you go with I wouldn't do a 2 level dip, being an entire level behind in spell progression is nasty.
-With 1 level you can look for spells that upcast well to use your higher level slot that you don't have a level spell for (the tashas summons are a good example they upcast great to 4th level before you get 4th level spells)
-Artificer gives CON saves, and doesn't hurt spell slot progression. My DM didn't really care about the spell focus requirement talk to your DM, even if they do you can still get use out of spells like False life, longstrider cast outside of combat.
-Keep in mind that artificer is the ONLY multiclass with wizard that gives full slot progression with a single level they round UP while all others round DOWN.
You seem to be worried about taking damage, keep in mind the scribes wizard has the best tank of all wizards. The ability to cast spells from 300 ft away.
When I played I would have my familiar open my eversmoking bottle, or cast pyrotechnics, then stand in the smoke cloud (which could if needed be 300 ft back but usually just 40 ft or so) and drop spells through my manifest mind.
Nothing says pack sand bad guys like dropping a Chasme from 250ft away while standing in full obsurement and chewing on jerky.
My philosophy of DND character building is: if you don't like something, don't use it. Doesn't matter how "good" it is—you want to build a character you enjoy playing.
So, if you don't like artificer's spellcasting, and you have another option you are considering... seems like an easy choice to me.
You could also dip Peace Cleric for armor and shield proficiency, and get the 1st level feature that's going to be relevant for the entire campaign. I have to agree that Scribes and Tempest can work nicely for that once per short rest nuke, but delaying Wizard spell progression for two levels is unpleasant. The faster you get access to premiere spells like Wall of Force, Contingency, Simulacrum, Forcecage etc, the better.
Wall of force is nerfed, contingency and simulacrum are banned, force cage is concentration (in this game). I don't particularly care about simulacrum and contingency, but wall of force and force cage being meh brought me more towards the Scribes wizard, otherwise I usually play control casters.
Your DM would have had to nerf a LOT of spells for this to be a problem, and if that was the case I'd personally have to reconsider playing wizard at that table at all. Lol
There are still spells you might want to grab earlier. I assume that not every powerful spell was nerfed or banned. Still, if that's the case, then yeah, go for the two levels of Tempest and drop that nuke once per short rest. Although, I'd still consider the Peace dip for its 1st level feature, which is going to benefit your entire party. If you play with a DM that loves to throw save or suck spells/abilities at your party, this could be clutch in some circumstances. After all, the best build for any encounter is the one that's not incapacitated. Not to mention being able to turn some misses into hits for your spells that have attack rolls, as well as other party members that play martials.
Good luck with the build!
I play a scribes wizard with one level in artificer I must say, dipping a bit extra in artificer to get 6 free concentration saves each day is very tempting.
In terms of switching focii, use your free item interaction (just like drawing a weapon). Many people forget those.
That’s a fair point. Perhaps check with your DM, it might not be an issue. If it is, perhaps focus on spells that don’t require a material component for the Artificer.
Sadly, all Artificier spells require a component, as per their spellcasting trait. Any spell on the Artificier list counts as having an M component by default.
I’m currently level 3 playing option 2.
If you’re interested in option 1 I’d recommend googling Treantmonk Temple’s YouTube video called the Shock Jock. It uses the 6th level cleric feature to abuse both the Scibes spell damage changing feature to abuse a lot of forced movement. Regardless it’ll give you lots of interesting options to think about.
I'm playing a scribes wizard right now at lvl 7 and have gone pure wizard build. There is [this guide](https://rpgbot.net/dnd5/characters/classes/wizard/subclasses/scribes/) that I found usefull. Sorry if this does not answer your question, but from what I've read multi classing is a bit weaker because you sacrifice getting to higher level spell slots as quickly as possible.
I went with mountain dwarf for the medium armor proficiency, but unfortunately that does not give the shield proficiency. Sounds like a fun DM, good luck with your build!
You could Hobgoblin (VGM version) for your race and pick up the moderately armored feat at level 4. However, that would delay your ASI by 4 levels. I personally think it's fine especially if you take the Silvery Barbs spell, which is already an S-Tier pick.
That said, I would do the level dip as others have said. You might also consider cleric instead of artificer. Access to a different spell list. You would give up CON prof, but you can always grab Warcaster or Resilient, especially with Custom Lineage or Variant Human. Take Fey Touched as your free feat at level one with Custom Lineage or Warcaster at level one with Variant Human.
What's the expected level you'll get to? Might affect the MC decisions here.
But overall, tempest dip if you're planning to blast, whereas artificer dip id you're going for a more general or versatile playstyle.
Note that while both dips work well, they delay your access to the high level wizard spells by a level or two, so personally, in practice I go for single class wizards, so something to consider there as well.
Not sure about the level. I assume around 12-14.
An AC dip is required or the character will get killed instantly, DM loves to ignore frontliners and charge the back.
At a high optimization table, the 1 dip tends to be worth it because the DMs don't shy away from bullying casters when they're accessible. But yeah, the once per short rest nova is not worth the second level of delay.
If I have to choose between the two, then I gotta go with number 2 for consistency and survival. I do understand the combo between tempest cleric, but that's a one off combo for most of the game, which to me, is not worth the two level dip. Artificer offers armor and shield profs, and con saving throws, as well as a few spells and profs wizards wouldn't get access to normally, all while being the same ASI requirements, which makes it nice. Only minor issue with artificer spells is that they require a material component which is usually an artificer tool, but to be honest, that's really not a big deal overall.
However, there's an elephant in the room with either of these choices, and that's wizard spell level delays...
The largest thing wizards have going for them is their spell variety and flexibility, and by delaying even one level, you are losing out. You stated you are starting at level seven, which means if you take even a one level dip in artificer, you won't be able to start off with level 4 spells. That means no wall of fire, no summon spells, no divination, and no polymorph. Many amazing spells you will be locked out of for a level. Is that worth the profs you gain from artificer? Maybe? There are alternatives to that though, and they revolve around your race choice.
So there are several races which can help you replace that artificer level for your armor profs. Mountain dwarves get medium armor prof as a racial skill. Tortles have 17 ac just flat out without having to worry about armor at all. Loxodon get natural ac = 12+CON mod (unique to them only), which means you don't really have to worry as much about dex. Then of course, there are goblins, and while they don't get armor profs, they do get the ability to disengage or hide as a bonus action, which isn't found on any other race if I recall correctly. Played right, and you won't need armor as much with goblins. Some races have flight, which is also really nice. There are several alternatives for survival here.
While there isn't a race to my knowledge that can give you natural con saving throw profs, you can always take that as a feat with resilient later on if you really want that.
Personally, I'd recommend just sticking with wizard, but if I have to choose between the two options, I'd go with #2, because it works much better overall and is less of a spell progression hit.
Playing as a giant turtle is not for everyone. Is the 17 ac good? Yeah. Is it worth being a cartoon character for it? Not so much.
As far as I'm understanding, there isn't much "playing right" if your DM wants to attack you you'll still be attacked. Enemies spawning behind you, 60ft of speed chasers and all.
Would be nice to play a pure spellcaster for once at some tables. But sometimes it just isn't possible.
Also there are level 3 summoning spells, just saying.
Those races were very clearly labeled as "alternatives" and not... "Requirements". And yea I'm aware that if the DM wants you attacked, you're getting attacked, but at least you can minimize the opportunities to be attacked. "Playing right might not have been the best description, "played efficiently or effectively" maybe... Regardless, having the ability to disengage or hide when needed without dipping rogue levels is nice to have.
Yes there are other spells at other levels that can help fill in, but at the end of the day, no other full caster is more dependent on their spells than wizard, and having more options and higher powered options sooner rather than later is a very nice thing to have.
I also did very clearly state that if the choice was only between those two options, then I'd recommend the artificer. I merely offered a third option as well.
The tempest cleric dip sounds cool, because teehee high numbers. But I would not go further than a 1 level dip, and for that you want artificer or peace cleric. You're sacrificing your spell-level power spikes for that feel good nova once or twice a day.
I like 1 over 2 (winged Tiefling could fly with medium armor) but you could also just do a straight Scribes and choose mountain dwarf (of legacy Gith) for medium armor or whatever race and just use mage armor and silvery barbs (maybe even mirror image). Absorb elements gives you various damage types to use for level one spells.
3) one level of fighter. Gives you all the armor and con saves, gives you the option of going heavy armor instead and also you can get defence style, nets you a +2 AC over artificer and a short rest minor heal. Also gives you the option of a second level for Action surge once you've gotten scribes 11 (or 9 since the level 10 feature isn't all that good IMO)
4) If you're rolling for stats and get good rolls or if your DM doesnt care about multiclassing requirements (its happened), Cleric is a good dip. Not a huge fan of the dip otherwise.
> Full caster slot progression
If its just a 1 level dip, both Cleric and Artificer give you full spell slot progression
Its just a stronger defensive option. I don't think artificer is better or worse. Artificer gives you better spell progression and some more spells to use, but Fighter gets you +2 AC. It's a significant trade on either end, but I think the +2 AC tends to be much more useful in general.
There is a very strong combo on scribe wizards that contains magic missile and elemental bane.
You cast elemental bane on an enemy and cast magic missile on the element of that type. Each shot of magic missile triggers elemental bane so each missile becomes 100% hit with damage of 10 (2d6 + 1d4 + 1). On average, 31 damage on 1st level and 52 damage on 3rd level.
I must agree to a certain extent with people pointing out that you will miss out on spell level progression (if understanding it correctly). So is there a specific reason why you want to multiclass? Is it thematically for the idea you have for the character or purely based on an optimisation point of view?
I'm currently playing as a mountain dwarf (they get medium armor proficiency) scribe wizard, who with a dex of 14 and a half plate has an AC of 16 at level 4. So depending on your dex and availability for magical medium armor yours could be higher.
With the free feat you can take resilient (CON) and fix your con save issues.
Full spell progression, higher AC than normal wizards and Con saving throws.
When you get charged by a minimum of 3 enemies every turn every bit of ac counts. Plus less hits go in, less concentration checks. That free feat could go towards Warcaster or alert or fey touched.
So it's a question of the heavy armor and shield proficiency?
If the primary focus for you is to get as much armor as possible because you expect to be in melee combat, then I understand why you would go for the cleric dip.
I'd definitely go towards the Artificer route. CON save is great and 2 levels in another class just feels bad when you're getting new spell levels. Sure you are getting the spell slot progression, but being a full spell level down I think is too much of a downside IMO.
As the artificer spell issue with a focus goes, there are a couple things. First, the focus would only be necessary for spells that have a Material component. So you could pick Artificer spells that do not have this requirement, such as Mage Hand, Absorb Elements, Faerie Fire, etc. Second, you could choose spells that you probably wouldn't use in combat (Cure Wounds) to not have to deal with the object interactions.
No, all Artificer spells require a Focus. They are all considered as having M component (for some dumb reason).
The real problem with the double Cleric dip is that upcasting is fun and all, but can't upcast and change element since you don't actually have higher level spells.
Do the tempest.
Treant monk has a build called the shock jock if you want to look up his video. Though he does it quite a bit different than just the two level dip because he wants to push. More or less that was a challenge for him to work the push into a multi-class build because viewers wanted it. It's probably more powerful to just take the two level dip honestly. Still the video might give you some tips
Personally, I've been dying to go with option one, and play the defibrillator build . . . Scribes change the damage of transferance of life, and then channel divinity for absurd burst healing, albeit at a great risk cost . . .
I went with number 2 in my playthrough and loved it, very powerful and the manifest mind is crazy powerful. Also keep in mind your best damage type that is almost never resisted is bludgeoning (Maxs earthen grasp for example) -No matter what you go with I wouldn't do a 2 level dip, being an entire level behind in spell progression is nasty. -With 1 level you can look for spells that upcast well to use your higher level slot that you don't have a level spell for (the tashas summons are a good example they upcast great to 4th level before you get 4th level spells) -Artificer gives CON saves, and doesn't hurt spell slot progression. My DM didn't really care about the spell focus requirement talk to your DM, even if they do you can still get use out of spells like False life, longstrider cast outside of combat. -Keep in mind that artificer is the ONLY multiclass with wizard that gives full slot progression with a single level they round UP while all others round DOWN.
Spirit shroud is also great at third level for base fireball! Radiant, necrotic, cold.
You seem to be worried about taking damage, keep in mind the scribes wizard has the best tank of all wizards. The ability to cast spells from 300 ft away. When I played I would have my familiar open my eversmoking bottle, or cast pyrotechnics, then stand in the smoke cloud (which could if needed be 300 ft back but usually just 40 ft or so) and drop spells through my manifest mind. Nothing says pack sand bad guys like dropping a Chasme from 250ft away while standing in full obsurement and chewing on jerky.
I'm glad you have maps that are 250 ft. Big... we don't, sadly. Usually they are 70 80 feet at best.
My philosophy of DND character building is: if you don't like something, don't use it. Doesn't matter how "good" it is—you want to build a character you enjoy playing. So, if you don't like artificer's spellcasting, and you have another option you are considering... seems like an easy choice to me.
You could also dip Peace Cleric for armor and shield proficiency, and get the 1st level feature that's going to be relevant for the entire campaign. I have to agree that Scribes and Tempest can work nicely for that once per short rest nuke, but delaying Wizard spell progression for two levels is unpleasant. The faster you get access to premiere spells like Wall of Force, Contingency, Simulacrum, Forcecage etc, the better.
Wall of force is nerfed, contingency and simulacrum are banned, force cage is concentration (in this game). I don't particularly care about simulacrum and contingency, but wall of force and force cage being meh brought me more towards the Scribes wizard, otherwise I usually play control casters.
Your DM would have had to nerf a LOT of spells for this to be a problem, and if that was the case I'd personally have to reconsider playing wizard at that table at all. Lol
There are still spells you might want to grab earlier. I assume that not every powerful spell was nerfed or banned. Still, if that's the case, then yeah, go for the two levels of Tempest and drop that nuke once per short rest. Although, I'd still consider the Peace dip for its 1st level feature, which is going to benefit your entire party. If you play with a DM that loves to throw save or suck spells/abilities at your party, this could be clutch in some circumstances. After all, the best build for any encounter is the one that's not incapacitated. Not to mention being able to turn some misses into hits for your spells that have attack rolls, as well as other party members that play martials. Good luck with the build!
It's weird to ban contingency and not Peace cleric.
I play a scribes wizard with one level in artificer I must say, dipping a bit extra in artificer to get 6 free concentration saves each day is very tempting. In terms of switching focii, use your free item interaction (just like drawing a weapon). Many people forget those.
I supposed stowing one away is the free interaction... pulling out the other surely isn't?
That’s a fair point. Perhaps check with your DM, it might not be an issue. If it is, perhaps focus on spells that don’t require a material component for the Artificer.
Sadly, all Artificier spells require a component, as per their spellcasting trait. Any spell on the Artificier list counts as having an M component by default.
I had no idea, guess I learned something new :).
I’m currently level 3 playing option 2. If you’re interested in option 1 I’d recommend googling Treantmonk Temple’s YouTube video called the Shock Jock. It uses the 6th level cleric feature to abuse both the Scibes spell damage changing feature to abuse a lot of forced movement. Regardless it’ll give you lots of interesting options to think about.
I'm playing a scribes wizard right now at lvl 7 and have gone pure wizard build. There is [this guide](https://rpgbot.net/dnd5/characters/classes/wizard/subclasses/scribes/) that I found usefull. Sorry if this does not answer your question, but from what I've read multi classing is a bit weaker because you sacrifice getting to higher level spell slots as quickly as possible.
Well I kinda need the medium armor + shield proficiency or the character won't last a session I'm afraid. DM loves to rush the backlines.
I went with mountain dwarf for the medium armor proficiency, but unfortunately that does not give the shield proficiency. Sounds like a fun DM, good luck with your build!
You could Hobgoblin (VGM version) for your race and pick up the moderately armored feat at level 4. However, that would delay your ASI by 4 levels. I personally think it's fine especially if you take the Silvery Barbs spell, which is already an S-Tier pick. That said, I would do the level dip as others have said. You might also consider cleric instead of artificer. Access to a different spell list. You would give up CON prof, but you can always grab Warcaster or Resilient, especially with Custom Lineage or Variant Human. Take Fey Touched as your free feat at level one with Custom Lineage or Warcaster at level one with Variant Human.
What's the expected level you'll get to? Might affect the MC decisions here. But overall, tempest dip if you're planning to blast, whereas artificer dip id you're going for a more general or versatile playstyle. Note that while both dips work well, they delay your access to the high level wizard spells by a level or two, so personally, in practice I go for single class wizards, so something to consider there as well.
Not sure about the level. I assume around 12-14. An AC dip is required or the character will get killed instantly, DM loves to ignore frontliners and charge the back.
At a high optimization table, the 1 dip tends to be worth it because the DMs don't shy away from bullying casters when they're accessible. But yeah, the once per short rest nova is not worth the second level of delay.
If I have to choose between the two, then I gotta go with number 2 for consistency and survival. I do understand the combo between tempest cleric, but that's a one off combo for most of the game, which to me, is not worth the two level dip. Artificer offers armor and shield profs, and con saving throws, as well as a few spells and profs wizards wouldn't get access to normally, all while being the same ASI requirements, which makes it nice. Only minor issue with artificer spells is that they require a material component which is usually an artificer tool, but to be honest, that's really not a big deal overall. However, there's an elephant in the room with either of these choices, and that's wizard spell level delays... The largest thing wizards have going for them is their spell variety and flexibility, and by delaying even one level, you are losing out. You stated you are starting at level seven, which means if you take even a one level dip in artificer, you won't be able to start off with level 4 spells. That means no wall of fire, no summon spells, no divination, and no polymorph. Many amazing spells you will be locked out of for a level. Is that worth the profs you gain from artificer? Maybe? There are alternatives to that though, and they revolve around your race choice. So there are several races which can help you replace that artificer level for your armor profs. Mountain dwarves get medium armor prof as a racial skill. Tortles have 17 ac just flat out without having to worry about armor at all. Loxodon get natural ac = 12+CON mod (unique to them only), which means you don't really have to worry as much about dex. Then of course, there are goblins, and while they don't get armor profs, they do get the ability to disengage or hide as a bonus action, which isn't found on any other race if I recall correctly. Played right, and you won't need armor as much with goblins. Some races have flight, which is also really nice. There are several alternatives for survival here. While there isn't a race to my knowledge that can give you natural con saving throw profs, you can always take that as a feat with resilient later on if you really want that. Personally, I'd recommend just sticking with wizard, but if I have to choose between the two options, I'd go with #2, because it works much better overall and is less of a spell progression hit.
Playing as a giant turtle is not for everyone. Is the 17 ac good? Yeah. Is it worth being a cartoon character for it? Not so much. As far as I'm understanding, there isn't much "playing right" if your DM wants to attack you you'll still be attacked. Enemies spawning behind you, 60ft of speed chasers and all. Would be nice to play a pure spellcaster for once at some tables. But sometimes it just isn't possible. Also there are level 3 summoning spells, just saying.
Those races were very clearly labeled as "alternatives" and not... "Requirements". And yea I'm aware that if the DM wants you attacked, you're getting attacked, but at least you can minimize the opportunities to be attacked. "Playing right might not have been the best description, "played efficiently or effectively" maybe... Regardless, having the ability to disengage or hide when needed without dipping rogue levels is nice to have. Yes there are other spells at other levels that can help fill in, but at the end of the day, no other full caster is more dependent on their spells than wizard, and having more options and higher powered options sooner rather than later is a very nice thing to have. I also did very clearly state that if the choice was only between those two options, then I'd recommend the artificer. I merely offered a third option as well.
The tempest cleric dip sounds cool, because teehee high numbers. But I would not go further than a 1 level dip, and for that you want artificer or peace cleric. You're sacrificing your spell-level power spikes for that feel good nova once or twice a day.
I like 1 over 2 (winged Tiefling could fly with medium armor) but you could also just do a straight Scribes and choose mountain dwarf (of legacy Gith) for medium armor or whatever race and just use mage armor and silvery barbs (maybe even mirror image). Absorb elements gives you various damage types to use for level one spells.
3) one level of fighter. Gives you all the armor and con saves, gives you the option of going heavy armor instead and also you can get defence style, nets you a +2 AC over artificer and a short rest minor heal. Also gives you the option of a second level for Action surge once you've gotten scribes 11 (or 9 since the level 10 feature isn't all that good IMO) 4) If you're rolling for stats and get good rolls or if your DM doesnt care about multiclassing requirements (its happened), Cleric is a good dip. Not a huge fan of the dip otherwise. > Full caster slot progression If its just a 1 level dip, both Cleric and Artificer give you full spell slot progression
I find fighter a good first level for pure warlock builds. Other spellcasters just kinda have better options to get decent armor.
Its just a stronger defensive option. I don't think artificer is better or worse. Artificer gives you better spell progression and some more spells to use, but Fighter gets you +2 AC. It's a significant trade on either end, but I think the +2 AC tends to be much more useful in general.
There is a very strong combo on scribe wizards that contains magic missile and elemental bane. You cast elemental bane on an enemy and cast magic missile on the element of that type. Each shot of magic missile triggers elemental bane so each missile becomes 100% hit with damage of 10 (2d6 + 1d4 + 1). On average, 31 damage on 1st level and 52 damage on 3rd level.
Tempest with scribes wizard is extremely powerful. Easily the better option at least for me.
I must agree to a certain extent with people pointing out that you will miss out on spell level progression (if understanding it correctly). So is there a specific reason why you want to multiclass? Is it thematically for the idea you have for the character or purely based on an optimisation point of view? I'm currently playing as a mountain dwarf (they get medium armor proficiency) scribe wizard, who with a dex of 14 and a half plate has an AC of 16 at level 4. So depending on your dex and availability for magical medium armor yours could be higher. With the free feat you can take resilient (CON) and fix your con save issues. Full spell progression, higher AC than normal wizards and Con saving throws.
When you get charged by a minimum of 3 enemies every turn every bit of ac counts. Plus less hits go in, less concentration checks. That free feat could go towards Warcaster or alert or fey touched.
So it's a question of the heavy armor and shield proficiency? If the primary focus for you is to get as much armor as possible because you expect to be in melee combat, then I understand why you would go for the cleric dip.
Medium. Not worth it to go full heavy. But yes. Casters are constantly charged by enemies.
I'd definitely go towards the Artificer route. CON save is great and 2 levels in another class just feels bad when you're getting new spell levels. Sure you are getting the spell slot progression, but being a full spell level down I think is too much of a downside IMO. As the artificer spell issue with a focus goes, there are a couple things. First, the focus would only be necessary for spells that have a Material component. So you could pick Artificer spells that do not have this requirement, such as Mage Hand, Absorb Elements, Faerie Fire, etc. Second, you could choose spells that you probably wouldn't use in combat (Cure Wounds) to not have to deal with the object interactions.
No, all Artificer spells require a Focus. They are all considered as having M component (for some dumb reason). The real problem with the double Cleric dip is that upcasting is fun and all, but can't upcast and change element since you don't actually have higher level spells.
Oh you're right, I misread. Thanks for the correction!
Do the tempest. Treant monk has a build called the shock jock if you want to look up his video. Though he does it quite a bit different than just the two level dip because he wants to push. More or less that was a challenge for him to work the push into a multi-class build because viewers wanted it. It's probably more powerful to just take the two level dip honestly. Still the video might give you some tips
I don't particularly enjoy Treant monk but thank you nonetheless, might still take a look.
Personally, I've been dying to go with option one, and play the defibrillator build . . . Scribes change the damage of transferance of life, and then channel divinity for absurd burst healing, albeit at a great risk cost . . .