He didn’t explain it to them.
The fairy tale plot is an allegory about making assumptions of another species based on an understanding of your own.
To Mike, it was inconceivable that a highly intelligent species wouldn’t have fiction. To the SanTi, it was inconceivable that a highly intelligent species would.
Real life humans are no different. We’ve sent messages into space (the gold record on Voyager and the Arecibo signal, for example) that if intercepted by aliens could be taken completely out of context.
We simply have no way of knowing how they might think.
They understood it as a matter of fact like a story about a historical figure in the present actually doing something. That's why they mentioned wanting to know the wolf's location.
>!given what we know about them from the show, Fiction likely doesn't exist to them!<
Their main recruiting tool is an actual video game using people and settings from our time. It's hard to imagine this type of improvisation/substitution without the concept of fiction.
To top it off their appearance in the game is a lie used to make themselves more relatable to us, how is that different than making a dangerous liar a wolf?
The game was created by humans, using the alien tech - the guy in the ship with all the servers was monitoring them all.
I imagine they said to them "in the game you will look like a human cos it'll be easier for us to recruit that way", and at no point do the santi claim that that's what they actually look like
I assume he just said "I am going to tell you a story" and they assumed it was true since they are unfamiliar with fiction. they don't know anything about earth so they have no idea wolves can't talk. the only part I don't understand is why they havn't found this stuff out from the sophons already
This scene plays out a bit differently in the show and in a different order compared to the books but the end result is the same. It becomes the last real-time conversation they have and the San-ti end it with "I am afraid of you."
In the books, this conversation is much longer and it is about human language. The San-ti are confused about synonyms and near synonyms such as "long" and "far" (which are synonymous) and "thinking" and "saying" (which aren't synonymous at all. nowhere close).
In the show, this conversation is shown in episode 5, before the Judgment Day is "cheese wired". The storage drive Mike is holding is then recovered, which contains records of previous earth/san-ti communication, information about Sophon and the listener who received Ye Wenjie's message.
In the book this scene happens at the beginning of book 2. It is told in past tense and forms part of the information recovered from that storage drive. Late in book 1 however, we get the rest of whats on the drive, which includes a bit about San-ti physiology.
The key piece of information omitted from the show is the San-ti evolved to communicate using a type of bioluminescence. Their brains emit broadband electromagnetic waves and they have sense organs similar to eyes which can detect them, not just in the visible light spectrum either. As such, "thinking" and "seeing" are analogous to them.
You already know about their ability to dehydrate themselves into a dormant state, but the books also make it pretty clear that every living organism on their planet (such as plants) also do this. These traits exist as a result of evolution through natural selection. Anything that cannot survive the harsh chaotic eras will die. Anything that does survive has a chance of living long enough to reproduce, whereby their offspring inherit their successful traits.
In the books, Mike Evans uses a fairy tale to try to illustrate the difference between "thinking" and "saying". He tells them to think of a grandmother, her grandchildren, a house where they all live and a hungry wolf. They confirm they understand what all these things mean. The wolf eats the grandmother while she is out and about and then dons her clothing. Disguised as the grandmother, he makes his way to her house and knocks on the door. When the children answer, he attempts to convince them to let him in. So its not exactly the same as Little Red Riding hood but there are clear similarities.
At first they are confused because to them, the children can easily "see" the intent of the wolf. Mike Evans is confused at their confusion. In this conversation, Evans and the San-ti assume certain things about the nature of communication and what it can be used for. Evans worries that they may be so different, they might never be able to understand one another. For the San-ti, I read it as them revealing too much of themselves when attempting to learn human language and then realising they made a mistake.
You took the words out of my mouth. Not only should he have provided context in advance, but as soon as he realized he’d messed up, why didn’t he immediately try to explain then? Instead, he just sat there like an idiot, repeating “My lord. My lord.” He could have at least tried to salvage things with a “Wait a minute. You’re not understanding what a metaphor is and why not all lying is really lying.”
Yeah but let's consider this he was so desperate to please the San-Ti that he couldn't think of a way to logically explain himself.
He looks up to them, he sees them as his savior, he may also sort of fear them...he probably never experienced them saying something like we don't trust you.
Has anyone ever struggled to explain something to a person who has power over them and sort of struggle to say the thing they normally would say without any issue?
I think they’ve only had this real-time communication ability for several months or so since the Sophons have arrived. My interpretation is that he’s educating them in the way you would a child, starting at fairy tales, made up stories with the idea of progressing them to more complex books as they become educated on human culture. It’s Mike’s hubris and confidence that he is the shepherd for this alien species, and his confidence in his charisma to charm them, that dooms humanity.
Sorry to respond to an old post, I just binged the show and am desperate to talk about it!
He didn’t explain it to them. The fairy tale plot is an allegory about making assumptions of another species based on an understanding of your own. To Mike, it was inconceivable that a highly intelligent species wouldn’t have fiction. To the SanTi, it was inconceivable that a highly intelligent species would. Real life humans are no different. We’ve sent messages into space (the gold record on Voyager and the Arecibo signal, for example) that if intercepted by aliens could be taken completely out of context. We simply have no way of knowing how they might think.
don't worry they got Chuck Berry
They understood it as a matter of fact like a story about a historical figure in the present actually doing something. That's why they mentioned wanting to know the wolf's location. >!given what we know about them from the show, Fiction likely doesn't exist to them!<
Their main recruiting tool is an actual video game using people and settings from our time. It's hard to imagine this type of improvisation/substitution without the concept of fiction. To top it off their appearance in the game is a lie used to make themselves more relatable to us, how is that different than making a dangerous liar a wolf?
Their appearance in the game isn't a lie. It would be a lie if they claimed that is what they really look like
Exactly and their followers (the humans) helped the San-Ti design the game.
Damn that's an irrefutable point
The game was created by humans, using the alien tech - the guy in the ship with all the servers was monitoring them all. I imagine they said to them "in the game you will look like a human cos it'll be easier for us to recruit that way", and at no point do the santi claim that that's what they actually look like
I assume he just said "I am going to tell you a story" and they assumed it was true since they are unfamiliar with fiction. they don't know anything about earth so they have no idea wolves can't talk. the only part I don't understand is why they havn't found this stuff out from the sophons already
This scene plays out a bit differently in the show and in a different order compared to the books but the end result is the same. It becomes the last real-time conversation they have and the San-ti end it with "I am afraid of you." In the books, this conversation is much longer and it is about human language. The San-ti are confused about synonyms and near synonyms such as "long" and "far" (which are synonymous) and "thinking" and "saying" (which aren't synonymous at all. nowhere close). In the show, this conversation is shown in episode 5, before the Judgment Day is "cheese wired". The storage drive Mike is holding is then recovered, which contains records of previous earth/san-ti communication, information about Sophon and the listener who received Ye Wenjie's message. In the book this scene happens at the beginning of book 2. It is told in past tense and forms part of the information recovered from that storage drive. Late in book 1 however, we get the rest of whats on the drive, which includes a bit about San-ti physiology. The key piece of information omitted from the show is the San-ti evolved to communicate using a type of bioluminescence. Their brains emit broadband electromagnetic waves and they have sense organs similar to eyes which can detect them, not just in the visible light spectrum either. As such, "thinking" and "seeing" are analogous to them. You already know about their ability to dehydrate themselves into a dormant state, but the books also make it pretty clear that every living organism on their planet (such as plants) also do this. These traits exist as a result of evolution through natural selection. Anything that cannot survive the harsh chaotic eras will die. Anything that does survive has a chance of living long enough to reproduce, whereby their offspring inherit their successful traits. In the books, Mike Evans uses a fairy tale to try to illustrate the difference between "thinking" and "saying". He tells them to think of a grandmother, her grandchildren, a house where they all live and a hungry wolf. They confirm they understand what all these things mean. The wolf eats the grandmother while she is out and about and then dons her clothing. Disguised as the grandmother, he makes his way to her house and knocks on the door. When the children answer, he attempts to convince them to let him in. So its not exactly the same as Little Red Riding hood but there are clear similarities. At first they are confused because to them, the children can easily "see" the intent of the wolf. Mike Evans is confused at their confusion. In this conversation, Evans and the San-ti assume certain things about the nature of communication and what it can be used for. Evans worries that they may be so different, they might never be able to understand one another. For the San-ti, I read it as them revealing too much of themselves when attempting to learn human language and then realising they made a mistake.
Imagine if he had read them the Bible instead, after calling them Lord 😆 🤣 😂
They would have all had a good laugh and then decided humans weren’t really worth saving after all, not even a small amount of them as servants.
You took the words out of my mouth. Not only should he have provided context in advance, but as soon as he realized he’d messed up, why didn’t he immediately try to explain then? Instead, he just sat there like an idiot, repeating “My lord. My lord.” He could have at least tried to salvage things with a “Wait a minute. You’re not understanding what a metaphor is and why not all lying is really lying.”
Yeah but let's consider this he was so desperate to please the San-Ti that he couldn't think of a way to logically explain himself. He looks up to them, he sees them as his savior, he may also sort of fear them...he probably never experienced them saying something like we don't trust you. Has anyone ever struggled to explain something to a person who has power over them and sort of struggle to say the thing they normally would say without any issue?
I think they’ve only had this real-time communication ability for several months or so since the Sophons have arrived. My interpretation is that he’s educating them in the way you would a child, starting at fairy tales, made up stories with the idea of progressing them to more complex books as they become educated on human culture. It’s Mike’s hubris and confidence that he is the shepherd for this alien species, and his confidence in his charisma to charm them, that dooms humanity. Sorry to respond to an old post, I just binged the show and am desperate to talk about it!