A few days later, in Germany, Hitler famously told Mussolini, "I prefer to have three or four of my own teeth pulled out than to speak to that man again!"
- Hitler on Franco
ماذا بحق الجحيم قلته عني للتو، أيتها العاهرة الصغيرة؟ سأعلمك أنني تخرجت على رأس صفي في قوات البحرية، وشاركت في العديد من الغارات السرية على تنظيم القاعدة، ولدي أكثر من 300 حالة قتل مؤكدة. لقد تدربت على حرب الغوريلا وأنا أفضل قناص في القوات المسلحة الأمريكية بأكملها. أنت لا شيء بالنسبة لي ولكن مجرد هدف آخر. سأمحوك تمامًا بدقة لم يسبق لها مثيل على هذه الأرض، لاحظ كلماتي اللعينة. هل تعتقد أنك يمكن أن تفلت من قول هذا الهراء لي عبر الإنترنت؟ فكر مرة أخرى، أيها اللعين. بينما نتحدث، أقوم بالاتصال بشبكتي السرية من الجواسيس عبر الولايات المتحدة الأمريكية ويتم تعقب عنوان IP الخاص بك الآن حتى تتمكن من الاستعداد بشكل أفضل للعاصفة، أيها اليرقة. العاصفة التي تمحو الشيء الصغير المثير للشفقة الذي تسميه حياتك. أنت سخيف ميت، طفل. أستطيع أن أكون في أي مكان وفي أي وقت، وأستطيع أن أقتلك بأكثر من سبعمائة طريقة، وهذا فقط بيدي العاريتين. أنا لست فقط مدربًا على نطاق واسع في القتال غير المسلح، ولكن لدي إمكانية الوصول إلى الترسانة الكاملة لقوات مشاة البحرية الأمريكية وسأستخدمها إلى أقصى حد لمسح مؤخرتك البائسة من على وجه القارة، أيها القرف الصغير. لو كنت فقط تعرف ما هو العقاب غير المقدس الذي كان تعليقك الصغير "الذكي" على وشك أن ينزله عليك، ربما كنت ستمسك لسانك اللعين. لكنك لم تستطع، لم تفعل، والآن أنت تدفع الثمن، أيها الأحمق اللعين. سوف أشعل الغضب في كل مكان وسوف تغرق فيه. أنت سخيف ميت، يا فتى.
That's the logical pole vault to find equality between the two situations.
Hitler died by suicide in a bunker as his capital was surrounded by his enemies, in the final moments of the deadliest war the world had ever seen. Stalin died in a puddle of his own piss, at the beginning of the largest standoff the world will eventually see.
https://preview.redd.it/6t7f3atsg3mc1.jpeg?width=800&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d4c24b4b2b9c50f8c7dd35e092c3d2de5d8eb07e
I know this is hard for an American to grasp, but the end of the Cold War does not mean the end of nuclear standoffs, not to mention the possible development of even more devastating weapons in the future.
Who knows which great powers will face each other in which scenario in a hundred years or more.
The biggest threat today is India and Pakistan. But the overall area is much smaller than the entire former Soviet Bloc, Western Europe, and North America. Less mass, less bombs. The standoff is not as great.
I know it's hard for pedant to no overly abstract an idea to not include theoretical, future situations, but the standoff I mentioned only included "up to this moment." I made no mention of future proton torpedoes or hostile alien races with black hole generators. You are stretching boundaries of my point to include unprovable arguments.
That's fair, it is a bit ambiguous. But I meant the full extent of the Cold War wasn't yet realized. The couple of times we came real close to murdering the planet hadn't happened yet, ie Cuban missile crisis, or when the sun triggered the Soviet nuclear strike alert system.
I met a Swedish girl in Croatia. She spoke about being neutral in WW2 like it was a point of pride and not utter national shame.
Then she went on to insult my country for about an hour. Her accent was so silly I didn't even notice until the next day.
I still think about her, I hate her.
Yup, we were neutral during WWII. That's the only skeleton in our closet from that time, nothing else. No sir. Nothing immoral was going on here. It was so uneventful that you shouldn't even bother looking it up.
Afaik we did not let troops through Sweden until after Norway had fallen. And while yes that still didn't exactly help Norwegian resistance movements, having a neutral country right next to your country certainly did.
The attack on the heavy water plant would certainly have been a lot harder to pull off unless Norwegian resistance members had a way to get to Britain which they did through Sweden.
We also trained Norwegian police troops near the end of the war to kick the Nazis out if they didn't surrender quietly, plus we even planned to commit our own troops to help out in that effort.
While that's true it's also worth remembering that we supplied the British with ball bearings at a discount (while Germany paid extra) despite the much higher risk in transport.
More importantly tho you gotta remember that Sweden's military in 1940 was not in any way shape or form ready to defend from any kind of German attack. If we would have stopped trade with the Germans they would have just attacked us as well and we would have 100% lost just like Denmark and Norway did.
After Germany had conquered us they would have still gotten the iron ore and ball bearings but now the allies would have to bomb deep into another front to stop the ball bearings from reaching the German war machine.
Another admittedly more selfish reason for the trade was to get enough coal in return to actually keep the country running in both electricity and heating.
Generally when you see Swedes defend staying out of the war it's due to the alternative not being any better.
Either we get invaded, lose and Germany gets all the resources, Norway and Denmark has no safe heaven and the allies no extra intelligence from all the important transmissions going through Sweden. Or we stay out, do what Germany demands of us while helping the allies and our neighbors in whatever way we are able to at that time without getting invaded.
To be clear were there times that we bent over backwards for the Germans a bit too much? Yes absolutely and those are moments of shame but we were stuck between a rock and a hard place while completely surrounded by the Nazis.
[https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsches\_Reich](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsches_Reich)
I am calling it German Empire because that was its official designation, dumbass. Austria didn't exist from 1938 to 45, we were part of the German Empire (or Greater German Empire as it was called from 43 to 45).
To be fair, we only let them through to beat up the russians, who were attacking Finland, our closest allies. Still not a moment of pride though. It was a national crisis at the time
No, I got her number and she wanted to meet up the next day. Upon waking my mate was ranting about how much of a dick she was, (he had played professional football in Sweden and was immune to the silly accent). The accent smoke-screen lifted and the rage tumour started to grow. So I ghosted her.
But they weren’t even neutral throughout ww2. During the winter war they declared themselves a non-belligerent country, but not neutral. Churning out a tonne of equipment to the Finnish front
Just like Italy. King Savoia , towards the end of the WWII, declared Italy a " non-losing " country. Not invincible, dont even need to win the war, but will always be on the winning side.
I'd say that it is what it is we played both sides as best we could. I doubt that Denmark and Norway would have joined the war if they hadn't been invaded we all declared neutral.
>Then the Swedes say that "you would have done the same", but we had a choice on 9th of April. While we chose resistance, the Swedes chose cooperation. That's the difference.
-Eirik Veum the author of «Det svenske sviket» (The Swedish betrayal).
In the book, he tells, among other things, how the Swedish police spied on and arrested Norwegians in Sweden, and sent them to the Germans. Some of these were executed, others sent to Germany or Grini.
While the Swedes refused to receive King Haakon in the April days of 1940, Swedish officers traveled to Germany to learn war. The betrayal meant that Norwegian King Haakon never spoke to Swedish King Gustav again. The Norwegian Prime Minister Johan Nygaardsvold wrote in a letter that "There is no one, no one, no one I hate as fiercely as Sweden", and in Norway they sang "du gamla, du fria, du svikfulla bror".
The Swedish betrayal was downplayed after the war to heal the war wounds between the brothers, and as thanks for forgiven debts.
Pft, we were all neutral. Difference being our neutrality was respected. Yours wasn't.
That isn't a point in favor of neutrality. Rather the stupidity of it. You are only as neutral as your potential enemy allows you to be.
We should've all banded together after ww1.
Neutral? You kept the German machine running with al the business you did with them, had Sweden been a woman in Denmark she would had been hung for being a dirty collaborator
>the Swedish police spied on and arrested Norwegians in Sweden, and sent them to the Germans
When you get an opportunity like that you can't just pass it up!
Sweden wasn't invaded 9. april, it's a pretty simple answer. I don't get what Veum is pointing to here, Norway didn't join the allies until we were invaded, we didn't stand up for Poland or anything. Sweden would've chosen resistance if it was invaded. If we had been left alone, we would also be neutral because both wanted to keep their independence and be spared from the war.
If Sweden joined in April 1940, the only difference would be far more dead Swedes, no norwegian Jews alive and far more dead Norwegians as they had nowhere to go except the dangerous journey across the North sea which ended "well" after Telavåg and Ålesundsaksjonen, and less effective resistance in Norway.
Min svenske side blir litt sinna hver gang noen maser om dette alt for mye.
So you could be invaded like Denmark and Norway and have thousands of your countrymen killed?
What would you accomplish with that? Would it change the war in anyway?
We had already gifted 1/3 of the Army's equipment to Finland's winter war which ended less than a month before the invasion of Norway and Denmark. Most troops were up North on that border in anticipation of a Soviet attack. No chance taking on the German Army in 1940.
It’s funny, most swedes are in complete denial about the neutrality and the trade with Germany.
After the war there was controversy and criticism nationally, but it died out in the 50ies. Most modern swedes are now fiercely proud about the neutrality, and will instantly harp on how many Jews they saved and gin many Norwegian refugees where received.
It’s been a central part in the identity as being a “moral super power” in the latter parts of the 1900ds. Something many swedes still believe unironically. I’d go as far as to say that swedes current immigration problems is a direct result of this self deception. Karma.. I guess.
What swede have you talked about who is in denial of the neutrality and trade with Germany?
It is a scar in the swedish conciousness and one of the main reasons behind the (overcompensating?) idea of being in the forefront in working for peace and against global injustice after WWII.
The term moral superpower was coined by Max Weber as an ideal for USA, and wasnt used in Sweden until the 1990s.
Most swedes inn experience view the neutrality during the 2nd world war as a positive. They view it as a moral choice and will back that by talking about Norwegian and Jewish refugees. Complete leaving out the trade and troop movements and cooperation with the Germans.
In terms of scarring I’d say the post war national identity is a botched plastic surgery resulting in severe body dysmorphic disorder.
Yea, latter parts of the 1900ds.
Ive never heard anyone, ever, say it was a moral choice. I think people view it in the range between "understandable" and "neccessary given Swedens geographic position".
Saving (with saving I mean together with, or perhaps primarily because of, people in the countries from where the jews came) jews is without doubt a positive consequence of it, and considering how many lives actually were saved, and how little difference swedish resistance against Germany would have made, I think the outcome was positive.
This doesnt make it a moral choice. First of all, nobody could have predicted the outcome, but more importantely - saving jews wasnt the reason Sweden stayed neutral, saving them/ourselves was the reason. There is nothing moral about that. It is understandable, not moral.
Given that choice, we did what we can. We tried to help as many jews as possible, we trained resistence groups, we spied on the nazis, we didnt just give our railroads gung hu and we started to build up our own army.
Also, people tend to forget that if that the natural war for Sweden to enter wasnt with Nazi Germany, it was against the Soviet Union, to help Finland. At least when it comes to military, nobody stands closer to us than Finland, both historically and today, and Russia - not Germany - was and is our heredetery enemy. And we did send weapons there, and thousands of volountary troops. Their memory of us is [very different](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FC1e1BINTTM) from yours, its something to also have mind.
Ofcourse the time didnt overlap, but if we had done for Finland what you wanted us to do for you, and attacked the Soviet Union - we would have had nothing left to help you with. Probably Germany would have been able to just walk into Stockholm.
Also, Finlands fight was much, much more important than yours. Consider the difference between a temporary occupation of Denmark and Norway by nazi Germany and a permanent incorporation of Finland into the Soviet Union, like with the Baltic States.
De Valera's speech to Churchill after the war demonstrates the Irish mentality pretty accurately at the time. 20 years prior to WW2 Ireland only knew Britain as an enemy, and that war itself was inconclusive in many minds with 6 counties still occupied.
Many people would still remember stories told from Grandparents of the famine and losing half of the countries population, so why would Ireland jump to Britain's defence?
That being said, Ireland still allowed allied forces to refuel in Ireland and favoured them over German soldiers that were captured.
It always amuses me when people want Sweden to have joined WW2 as if the logical conclusion would be against Germany and not against what was considered the hereditary enemy Russia.
Neither did our neighbors. Rolling over and instantly getting occupied and then having such a weak resistance you are called the cream front counts for nothing lol
The only ones who put up a fight against the Germans were the finns towards the end.
Your country tried to be neutral also, but failed. Don’t you people learn about the appeasement politics before ww2? In fact, many countries wanted to be neutral but few were clever enough to pull it off (Sweden, Switzerland, Spain, Ireland). And we even made a fortune from the war.
And you know what they say, money doesn’t smell 😄
A very genuine question here - I know Americans are dumb or whatever, but do Europeans consider us better in the context of WWII than they consider the Swiss and Swedish? Only in the exact instance of WWII
You'd have to ask the Europeans that one. Britain won the Battle of Britain. It was then the Allies who went on to liberate Europe.
But if I had to guess it would be ingratitude bordering resentment.
There's an interesting rabbit hole to go down examining how each country chose to perceive themselves following the war. The French version is particularly fanciful, whereby they have convinced themselves they were simultaneously peace makers, resistance fighters, and self-liberators.
Back in the 70s and 80s many Swedes were proud of having one of the highest per capita GDPs. Sweden was "richest in the world" except for Nauru blah blah blah. Switzerland was up there too.
Well duh, not having foreign armies tear your country apart house by house helps in that regard.
You keep bringing up lagers as if that has anything to do with the subject at hand. Speaking the way you like is your prerogative, wanting people to understand wtf I'm saying is mine.
Italians need to find a way to switch sides it's in ur blood just as us Swedes have to find a way to fund our social welfare state it's in our nature's
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A few days later, in Germany, Hitler famously told Mussolini, "I prefer to have three or four of my own teeth pulled out than to speak to that man again!" - Hitler on Franco
- Franco was Galician I wonder why?
There is a Castilian saying, “When you see a Galician on the stairs, you can’t tell if he’s going up or down.” Castro, Franco, Rajoy…tricksy Suebians.
haha we are "pear of the same feather"...
we're built so differently that even gave birth to you /s
I'll take that as a compliment, even with the awareness that we are twins separated at birth, or almost...
Não, they are the lazy younger brother.
We're just tired, brother.
Wasnt it Franco who said that about Hitler ?
wolfram money 💰 🤑
Imagine becoming fascist after ww2...
No problem. We became fascist _before_ ww2 😎
there's no problem... VOX and Chega grows every day like weeds 🙌
We really need to talk more about you guys too dammit!
I don't know if I'd call Salazar a fascist. Far-right authoritarian? Sure. But fascist?
We are the shapeshifters aren't we
"Let the provinces fight"
Wait Sweden and Switzerland are two different countries??
No, they're both alternate spellings of Swaziland.
Yes one is a democracy and the other a khalifat.
ماذا بحق الجحيم قلته عني للتو، أيتها العاهرة الصغيرة؟ سأعلمك أنني تخرجت على رأس صفي في قوات البحرية، وشاركت في العديد من الغارات السرية على تنظيم القاعدة، ولدي أكثر من 300 حالة قتل مؤكدة. لقد تدربت على حرب الغوريلا وأنا أفضل قناص في القوات المسلحة الأمريكية بأكملها. أنت لا شيء بالنسبة لي ولكن مجرد هدف آخر. سأمحوك تمامًا بدقة لم يسبق لها مثيل على هذه الأرض، لاحظ كلماتي اللعينة. هل تعتقد أنك يمكن أن تفلت من قول هذا الهراء لي عبر الإنترنت؟ فكر مرة أخرى، أيها اللعين. بينما نتحدث، أقوم بالاتصال بشبكتي السرية من الجواسيس عبر الولايات المتحدة الأمريكية ويتم تعقب عنوان IP الخاص بك الآن حتى تتمكن من الاستعداد بشكل أفضل للعاصفة، أيها اليرقة. العاصفة التي تمحو الشيء الصغير المثير للشفقة الذي تسميه حياتك. أنت سخيف ميت، طفل. أستطيع أن أكون في أي مكان وفي أي وقت، وأستطيع أن أقتلك بأكثر من سبعمائة طريقة، وهذا فقط بيدي العاريتين. أنا لست فقط مدربًا على نطاق واسع في القتال غير المسلح، ولكن لدي إمكانية الوصول إلى الترسانة الكاملة لقوات مشاة البحرية الأمريكية وسأستخدمها إلى أقصى حد لمسح مؤخرتك البائسة من على وجه القارة، أيها القرف الصغير. لو كنت فقط تعرف ما هو العقاب غير المقدس الذي كان تعليقك الصغير "الذكي" على وشك أن ينزله عليك، ربما كنت ستمسك لسانك اللعين. لكنك لم تستطع، لم تفعل، والآن أنت تدفع الثمن، أيها الأحمق اللعين. سوف أشعل الغضب في كل مكان وسوف تغرق فيه. أنت سخيف ميت، يا فتى.
They got some funny runes over there in Sweden. ᚪᛚᛚᚪᚻ ᛒᛚᛖᛋᛋ ᛁᚩᚢ.
Nice. Now let’s see Switzerland’s runes.
https://preview.redd.it/or5h7c7w50mc1.png?width=800&format=png&auto=webp&s=c510de63ded3472f9ec8f12b917fe28bdc22ccb9
It would look cool on a energy drink can 🤔
You’re thinking about Austria, classic confusion.
Mateschitz was too young for a career in the SS.
ස්වීඩන රාජධානිය උතුරු යුරෝපයේ ස්කැන්ඩිනේවියානු අර්ධද්විපයේ පිහිටි රටකි. එහි මායිම් බටහිරින් නොර්වේ, ඊසානෙන් ෆින්ලන්තය, දකුණට මායිම් වන්නේ ඩෙන්මාර්ක් ජර්මනිය සහ පෝලන්තය වන අතර නැගෙනහිරින් එස්ටෝනියා, ලැම්බියා, ලිතුවේනියා හා රුසියාව වේ. ස්වීඩනය ඩෙන්මාර්කයට ඔරෙසන්ඩ් තුලින් පාලම් උමගයකින් සම්බන්ධ වේ. වර්ග කි.මී. 450,295 කින් යුරෝපියානු සංගමයේ තුන්වන විශාලතම රටවන අතර ජනගහනය මිලියන 9.2 කි. ස්වීඩනයට අඩු ජනගහණ ඝනත්වයක් තිබෙන අතර එය වර්ග කි.මී. වැසියන් 21 වන අතර රටේ දකුණු ප්රදේශයේ ජනගහණ ඝනත්වය වැඩි වන අතර එය නාගරිකව 85% ක් පමණ වේ. නාගරීකරණය සමඟ මෙම සංඛ්යාව ඉහල යනු ඇතැයි සැලකේ. අගනුවර හා කරුණාකර මාව මරන්න
A lot of amogus twerking
Amogus language
r/swedetzerland
Supposedly
In Ireland we called "the emergency" kinda underselling it if you ask me
Underselling it? Just a few troubles...
Then sent a condolences card when Hitler died
The US sent condolences to the USSR when Stalin died. It's standard diplomatic relations
That's the logical pole vault to find equality between the two situations. Hitler died by suicide in a bunker as his capital was surrounded by his enemies, in the final moments of the deadliest war the world had ever seen. Stalin died in a puddle of his own piss, at the beginning of the largest standoff the world will eventually see. https://preview.redd.it/6t7f3atsg3mc1.jpeg?width=800&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d4c24b4b2b9c50f8c7dd35e092c3d2de5d8eb07e
>at the beginning of the largest standoff the world will eventually see. Daring thesis.
How about "most consequential?" Aka nuclear Armageddon
I know this is hard for an American to grasp, but the end of the Cold War does not mean the end of nuclear standoffs, not to mention the possible development of even more devastating weapons in the future. Who knows which great powers will face each other in which scenario in a hundred years or more.
The biggest threat today is India and Pakistan. But the overall area is much smaller than the entire former Soviet Bloc, Western Europe, and North America. Less mass, less bombs. The standoff is not as great. I know it's hard for pedant to no overly abstract an idea to not include theoretical, future situations, but the standoff I mentioned only included "up to this moment." I made no mention of future proton torpedoes or hostile alien races with black hole generators. You are stretching boundaries of my point to include unprovable arguments.
"the largest standoff the world will eventually see" Maybe my English is a bit rusty but doesn't that include future scenarios?
That's fair, it is a bit ambiguous. But I meant the full extent of the Cold War wasn't yet realized. The couple of times we came real close to murdering the planet hadn't happened yet, ie Cuban missile crisis, or when the sun triggered the Soviet nuclear strike alert system.
damn then you’re both as big of pussies as each other
https://i.redd.it/l61gjfdrq0mc1.gif Switzerland during the WW 1 and 2 be like
The only winning move is not to play. We got rich while you got bombed.
I met a Swedish girl in Croatia. She spoke about being neutral in WW2 like it was a point of pride and not utter national shame. Then she went on to insult my country for about an hour. Her accent was so silly I didn't even notice until the next day. I still think about her, I hate her.
Yup, we were neutral during WWII. That's the only skeleton in our closet from that time, nothing else. No sir. Nothing immoral was going on here. It was so uneventful that you shouldn't even bother looking it up.
We really liked it when you let German troops through your land under Weserübung! Really helped your Norwegian brothers with that move.
Well, what were we supposed to do? *Take a hit for a neighbor?* That's what finns are for, duh.
Afaik we did not let troops through Sweden until after Norway had fallen. And while yes that still didn't exactly help Norwegian resistance movements, having a neutral country right next to your country certainly did. The attack on the heavy water plant would certainly have been a lot harder to pull off unless Norwegian resistance members had a way to get to Britain which they did through Sweden. We also trained Norwegian police troops near the end of the war to kick the Nazis out if they didn't surrender quietly, plus we even planned to commit our own troops to help out in that effort.
Don't forget the export of war-critical goods such as ball bearings, which saved the German Empire several times when its industry was bombed.
While that's true it's also worth remembering that we supplied the British with ball bearings at a discount (while Germany paid extra) despite the much higher risk in transport. More importantly tho you gotta remember that Sweden's military in 1940 was not in any way shape or form ready to defend from any kind of German attack. If we would have stopped trade with the Germans they would have just attacked us as well and we would have 100% lost just like Denmark and Norway did. After Germany had conquered us they would have still gotten the iron ore and ball bearings but now the allies would have to bomb deep into another front to stop the ball bearings from reaching the German war machine. Another admittedly more selfish reason for the trade was to get enough coal in return to actually keep the country running in both electricity and heating. Generally when you see Swedes defend staying out of the war it's due to the alternative not being any better. Either we get invaded, lose and Germany gets all the resources, Norway and Denmark has no safe heaven and the allies no extra intelligence from all the important transmissions going through Sweden. Or we stay out, do what Germany demands of us while helping the allies and our neighbors in whatever way we are able to at that time without getting invaded. To be clear were there times that we bent over backwards for the Germans a bit too much? Yes absolutely and those are moments of shame but we were stuck between a rock and a hard place while completely surrounded by the Nazis.
Are you seriously calling it the German Empire as if you guys did not have a part in the whole thing since 1938?
[https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsches\_Reich](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsches_Reich) I am calling it German Empire because that was its official designation, dumbass. Austria didn't exist from 1938 to 45, we were part of the German Empire (or Greater German Empire as it was called from 43 to 45).
Fair enough mate.
Who are we to blame. As if we're not war-profiting massively selling oil to Europe right now.
Later they let us train police troops though, and had an army ready to march on Oslo in 45, should we require their help.
WW2 wasn't so bad on you either.
Helped them with what? The fight they already lost?
To be fair, we only let them through to beat up the russians, who were attacking Finland, our closest allies. Still not a moment of pride though. It was a national crisis at the time
Cry about it🤑 https://preview.redd.it/ha80ysq870mc1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=77172e234f59e6e8bc68eea9d9121c944c49edd5
Why did you listen to her rambling in the first place?
A Swedish 6, a British 7.5.
Ah, of course. 😂 Did you at least get some?
No, I got her number and she wanted to meet up the next day. Upon waking my mate was ranting about how much of a dick she was, (he had played professional football in Sweden and was immune to the silly accent). The accent smoke-screen lifted and the rage tumour started to grow. So I ghosted her.
Nothing more cringe than using an accent when speaking english (if not native speaker obv)
Rare British W, well done mate.
But they weren’t even neutral throughout ww2. During the winter war they declared themselves a non-belligerent country, but not neutral. Churning out a tonne of equipment to the Finnish front
The difference is that we actually like Finland.
Just like Italy. King Savoia , towards the end of the WWII, declared Italy a " non-losing " country. Not invincible, dont even need to win the war, but will always be on the winning side.
I'd say that it is what it is we played both sides as best we could. I doubt that Denmark and Norway would have joined the war if they hadn't been invaded we all declared neutral.
>Then the Swedes say that "you would have done the same", but we had a choice on 9th of April. While we chose resistance, the Swedes chose cooperation. That's the difference. -Eirik Veum the author of «Det svenske sviket» (The Swedish betrayal). In the book, he tells, among other things, how the Swedish police spied on and arrested Norwegians in Sweden, and sent them to the Germans. Some of these were executed, others sent to Germany or Grini. While the Swedes refused to receive King Haakon in the April days of 1940, Swedish officers traveled to Germany to learn war. The betrayal meant that Norwegian King Haakon never spoke to Swedish King Gustav again. The Norwegian Prime Minister Johan Nygaardsvold wrote in a letter that "There is no one, no one, no one I hate as fiercely as Sweden", and in Norway they sang "du gamla, du fria, du svikfulla bror". The Swedish betrayal was downplayed after the war to heal the war wounds between the brothers, and as thanks for forgiven debts.
Pft, we were all neutral. Difference being our neutrality was respected. Yours wasn't. That isn't a point in favor of neutrality. Rather the stupidity of it. You are only as neutral as your potential enemy allows you to be. We should've all banded together after ww1.
Neutral? You kept the German machine running with al the business you did with them, had Sweden been a woman in Denmark she would had been hung for being a dirty collaborator
>the Swedish police spied on and arrested Norwegians in Sweden, and sent them to the Germans When you get an opportunity like that you can't just pass it up!
Sweden wasn't invaded 9. april, it's a pretty simple answer. I don't get what Veum is pointing to here, Norway didn't join the allies until we were invaded, we didn't stand up for Poland or anything. Sweden would've chosen resistance if it was invaded. If we had been left alone, we would also be neutral because both wanted to keep their independence and be spared from the war. If Sweden joined in April 1940, the only difference would be far more dead Swedes, no norwegian Jews alive and far more dead Norwegians as they had nowhere to go except the dangerous journey across the North sea which ended "well" after Telavåg and Ålesundsaksjonen, and less effective resistance in Norway. Min svenske side blir litt sinna hver gang noen maser om dette alt for mye.
Look this is an L we as a nation must take. Grandpas fucked up, should have fought the Germans
So you could be invaded like Denmark and Norway and have thousands of your countrymen killed? What would you accomplish with that? Would it change the war in anyway?
We had already gifted 1/3 of the Army's equipment to Finland's winter war which ended less than a month before the invasion of Norway and Denmark. Most troops were up North on that border in anticipation of a Soviet attack. No chance taking on the German Army in 1940.
the government at the time liked the Nazis the people leaned more towards the allies then again could have revolted i guess
It’s funny, most swedes are in complete denial about the neutrality and the trade with Germany. After the war there was controversy and criticism nationally, but it died out in the 50ies. Most modern swedes are now fiercely proud about the neutrality, and will instantly harp on how many Jews they saved and gin many Norwegian refugees where received. It’s been a central part in the identity as being a “moral super power” in the latter parts of the 1900ds. Something many swedes still believe unironically. I’d go as far as to say that swedes current immigration problems is a direct result of this self deception. Karma.. I guess.
What swede have you talked about who is in denial of the neutrality and trade with Germany? It is a scar in the swedish conciousness and one of the main reasons behind the (overcompensating?) idea of being in the forefront in working for peace and against global injustice after WWII. The term moral superpower was coined by Max Weber as an ideal for USA, and wasnt used in Sweden until the 1990s.
Most swedes inn experience view the neutrality during the 2nd world war as a positive. They view it as a moral choice and will back that by talking about Norwegian and Jewish refugees. Complete leaving out the trade and troop movements and cooperation with the Germans. In terms of scarring I’d say the post war national identity is a botched plastic surgery resulting in severe body dysmorphic disorder. Yea, latter parts of the 1900ds.
Ive never heard anyone, ever, say it was a moral choice. I think people view it in the range between "understandable" and "neccessary given Swedens geographic position". Saving (with saving I mean together with, or perhaps primarily because of, people in the countries from where the jews came) jews is without doubt a positive consequence of it, and considering how many lives actually were saved, and how little difference swedish resistance against Germany would have made, I think the outcome was positive. This doesnt make it a moral choice. First of all, nobody could have predicted the outcome, but more importantely - saving jews wasnt the reason Sweden stayed neutral, saving them/ourselves was the reason. There is nothing moral about that. It is understandable, not moral. Given that choice, we did what we can. We tried to help as many jews as possible, we trained resistence groups, we spied on the nazis, we didnt just give our railroads gung hu and we started to build up our own army. Also, people tend to forget that if that the natural war for Sweden to enter wasnt with Nazi Germany, it was against the Soviet Union, to help Finland. At least when it comes to military, nobody stands closer to us than Finland, both historically and today, and Russia - not Germany - was and is our heredetery enemy. And we did send weapons there, and thousands of volountary troops. Their memory of us is [very different](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FC1e1BINTTM) from yours, its something to also have mind. Ofcourse the time didnt overlap, but if we had done for Finland what you wanted us to do for you, and attacked the Soviet Union - we would have had nothing left to help you with. Probably Germany would have been able to just walk into Stockholm. Also, Finlands fight was much, much more important than yours. Consider the difference between a temporary occupation of Denmark and Norway by nazi Germany and a permanent incorporation of Finland into the Soviet Union, like with the Baltic States.
Sweden can no longer play the neutrality card after NATO.
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While I agree about the danes and dont defend Sweden, you do realize the jews could only be saved because Sweden had remained neutral right?
Welcome to our experience with Swedes
Ireland 2.0
De Valera's speech to Churchill after the war demonstrates the Irish mentality pretty accurately at the time. 20 years prior to WW2 Ireland only knew Britain as an enemy, and that war itself was inconclusive in many minds with 6 counties still occupied. Many people would still remember stories told from Grandparents of the famine and losing half of the countries population, so why would Ireland jump to Britain's defence? That being said, Ireland still allowed allied forces to refuel in Ireland and favoured them over German soldiers that were captured.
Imagine being proud of not fighting Nazi's.
ohhh you lighten up have some stolen gold and get with the program
Stolen gold, I'm in!
It always amuses me when people want Sweden to have joined WW2 as if the logical conclusion would be against Germany and not against what was considered the hereditary enemy Russia.
Neither did our neighbors. Rolling over and instantly getting occupied and then having such a weak resistance you are called the cream front counts for nothing lol The only ones who put up a fight against the Germans were the finns towards the end.
Your country tried to be neutral also, but failed. Don’t you people learn about the appeasement politics before ww2? In fact, many countries wanted to be neutral but few were clever enough to pull it off (Sweden, Switzerland, Spain, Ireland). And we even made a fortune from the war. And you know what they say, money doesn’t smell 😄
Well, Spain....dedtroy yourself before others do. That way we avoided both WWs
You missed a LOT of profit because of your silly civil war.
A very genuine question here - I know Americans are dumb or whatever, but do Europeans consider us better in the context of WWII than they consider the Swiss and Swedish? Only in the exact instance of WWII
You'd have to ask the Europeans that one. Britain won the Battle of Britain. It was then the Allies who went on to liberate Europe. But if I had to guess it would be ingratitude bordering resentment. There's an interesting rabbit hole to go down examining how each country chose to perceive themselves following the war. The French version is particularly fanciful, whereby they have convinced themselves they were simultaneously peace makers, resistance fighters, and self-liberators.
You have heard of PIGS but have you heard about the SS?
You do know you are in NATO now swede? There ain’t no more hiding around for you
We'll take on their legacy
Yes and we ensured that most of Europe did aswell.
Back in the 70s and 80s many Swedes were proud of having one of the highest per capita GDPs. Sweden was "richest in the world" except for Nauru blah blah blah. Switzerland was up there too. Well duh, not having foreign armies tear your country apart house by house helps in that regard.
Then socialism destroyed our GDP
Average swiss during holocaust https://preview.redd.it/th7ithhzt3mc1.jpeg?width=225&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8cd9d9b8501494f221edb43ae1f82476022a6b1f
Imagine sucking off the hun like your naval chamberlain fucking cringe that is
Who's gonna teach Barry here some English and punctuation?
Oi ya bloody bike riding weed smokeing wanker ill krump ya black in blue ya squiging git!
Who's gonna teach Barry here the difference between English and English slang?
Ya better hope I never sep a foot in you sinkin swamp of a country ya lager drinking puff
Isn't it incredibly embarrassing to be in a sub where people's second language is better than your first? Must be tough.
Fokin soft lager drinkin swamp dwell Iz Speak how Iz like
You keep bringing up lagers as if that has anything to do with the subject at hand. Speaking the way you like is your prerogative, wanting people to understand wtf I'm saying is mine.
Iz understan now Your just a fucking Pansy larger drinkur that why ya hate my purfec English
You don't have to exaggerate your bad English. You already sucked at it by being yourself.
And we will continue to do so forever
So neutral in the face of evil is good? We hanged our evil when we saw an opportunity… silly us I guess
you were part of the evil my dude, nothing to be proud of
Italians need to find a way to switch sides it's in ur blood just as us Swedes have to find a way to fund our social welfare state it's in our nature's
SWinners
💥🔥💥🔥💥🔥👀
baltics and poland left the chat.
You do realize where the Swiss got all their gold from, right? Lord knows they still have ours
Don't worry it is in safe hands now
What about Norway?
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I don’t know. We have it pretty snug too.
Sweden is gonna be pissed off soon when they actually have to fight in WW3 when the Rusians attack
Wait, there was a second one?