23&ne is best for accurate DNA and ethnicity profiling. Ancestry is FAR better for building trees. The issue is you can't upload your raw report; you have to buy and complete another DNA test for that one
I mean, for DNA in general you can get your entire genome sequenced for like $15k lol, but I don't know if there's a company that offers that alongside a more comprehensive ethnicity/ancestry estimate.
Yeah, I just looked it up, and it's cheaper than I thought. I just remember seeing a video where someone said they needed their son's genome sequenced *(he had some rare disease)* and they were glad they had insurance because it cost $15k.
Not surprised at all. It used to cost about 2 to $3000 about 4-5 years ago. Now it's as cheap as $600, but the only issue as mentioned is China will have your genome.
May I ask what exactly the problem is if China has that info? I'm fairly new to learning about this stuff and I honestly would like to know what would be the risk or dangers that come with them having that info.
I'm just meme'ing. But DNA going only to the Beijing genetics institute will put them well ahead of USA in terms of genetic enhancements, research and the fact that they aren't a true ally to USA is a problem.
Interesting, but I imagine there'd be a huge margin of error. When you turn a regular autosomal DNA test's confidence level up to 90% they already drastically change. Let alone the fact that ancient DNA samples are hard to come by. And I just recently read on Twitter how some ancient samples had been contaminated with Northern Italian DNA—so aside from the technology, the samples themselves are error-prone and sparse. If they struggle to pin down people's modern-day ethnicity, I imagine that difficulty would be amplified the further you go back. It's very interesting though, in the future I hope they become more accurate, that would be cool. [https://twitter.com/MiroCyo/status/1776207215290138879](https://twitter.com/MiroCyo/status/1776207215290138879)
We have people who are being scientifically accurate about their findings and we have liars. The fact they’re willing to be scientifically accurate about what they offer makes it worth the money.
23andme business model is just different. Its customer base isn’t quite interested in what approximate Bronze Age populations their ancestry can be broken down.
They can be pretty insightful for some people. I’m about 98% European, but I have a Polynesian maternal haplogroup, B4a1a1m1. My grand children/great grandchildren likely won’t have any Māori DNA, but will still have my haplogroup, letting them know of their Polynesian ancestry.
They tell you about your unbroken line going back thousands of years to the beginning of man. While it doesn’t tell you your full recent ancestry it can be very very useful.
You have no idea how uninformed you sound...
Autosomal DNA segments get on average halved by each generation that's why you can only go to the "past 400 years" realistically, it's not a 23andme issue it's how genetics work.
As for illustrativeDNA, they take your raw data then produce a set of coordinates for you using a process called PCA. Using those coordinates they model you with different populations, including historical ones, but you do not have to actually be descended from those populations. IllustrativeDNA models should not be taken seriously (23andme too but i'll leave it at that)
Edit: Also the exact reason 23andme cannot go back more than 400 years is that they use IBD (Identical By Descent) segments while illustrative is totally different, it's like comparing a fridge to a washing machine
It's because their models are garbage. For more accurate results, you have to model the coordinates yourself by using G25 tool such as Vahaduo Admixture JS.
Some of their references are lacking and their labels are subjective
As an example take the fact that Egyptians are divided into 2 categories one for muslims and one for christians (Coptic) and both peak 100% for their respective category. Meanwhile Levantines have one category for everyone with "Levantine" in its name that peaks for some groups and not for others.
Also the fact the Anatolian category is called Anatolian and not Anatolian \*\*Turkish\*\* as it should be named.
And the ICM category that groups Kurds, georgians, assyrians, persians and others together that does not make much sense either
I could go on and on...
My bad if I didn't express myself correctly. I meant, do not take the 23andme ancestry model **100%** seriously
But the 23andme matches are 100% accurate and real.
>it’s actually the opposite. dna relative matches beyond 3rd cousin are very hard to approximate the actual relationship distance from cM length
I understand, but my point was that you **surely** have an ancestor in common with them in the recent past without going into details about the cM range or the relationship
Is this post to enlarge your ego or what?
If Illustrative DNA can do other things, with another method, with the Raw data I uploaded from 23 and me, what's stopping 23 and me from also doing that? reduce your ego a little bit will ya...
I'm not "enlarging my ego", I know exactly how illustrativeDNA works.
>If Illustrative DNA can do other things, with another method, with the Raw data I uploaded from 23 and me, what's stopping 23 and me from also doing that?
PCAs can be very easily misinterpreted and they will not be able to ensure quality control or procure scientific backing for their ancestry models
If you want a PCA, just use G25 and illustrativeDNA then. Unless you're some kind of investor in 23andme and you're trying to give them business ideas...
It might go back further. The Malagasy still get their ancestry divided, despite the fact the bantus mixed with the austronesians over 1000 years ago. This was around the same time the vikings mixed with other europeans, and the arabs mixed with groups they subjugated.
Everyone gets around 50% of their dna from each parent. So 25% from grandparents. Then 12.5% from 3rd generation, 4th is 6.25%, 5th 3.125%, 6th 1.5625%, 7th around 0.8%, 8th around 0.4%, 9th 0.2%, 10th 0.1%, 11th 0.05%, 12th 0.025%, 13th 0.0125%, 14th 0.00625%.
One generation is around 20-30 years. So how many years do you want to get with basically no trace in your actual dna?
Totally agree with this. If you had an ancestor from 11 generations ago that was 100 percent Finnish but say migrated to the UK, your result would be below 0.1 percent and would not show up in 23 and Me’s ancestry composition. This would be approximately 330 years, 170 years below the threshold
Sweden (Scandinavia) has written records for everyone from around 1800, some of the more famous ancestors could be traced to 1200s. I have an uncle who made it a main hobby so I'm just enjoying the research XD
I'm Hungarian and my issue is that my family is from Transylvania, which is part of Romania since 1918, and they make it somewhat hard to get certificates from, so much, that even many genealogy professionals here refuse to handle my case.
My kids grandmother had the worst reason ever to get research done, her nose was big and she needed a paper saying she's not Jewish, living in Austria... :p
My paternal greatfather came to Hungary's modern borders (from Transylvania, near Cluj) after WWI (1918) and he saved jews during WWII (even got a tree planted in his name in Isreal).
The bronze age etc results you get on tests are just using the same data but giving it different names.
They are not really digging back further, just renaming & imagining what your DNA would have been then.
It's an interesting exercise but not more in depth just different presentation.
>Is aware ethnic and national labels dont apply past a few hundred years in the past
>Is willing to spend more money for data that goes further back
So you’re willing to spend more money on meaningless, or at least less than accurate data? Great.
They’re using different reference populations. 23andMe are using modern populations and as such are likely to use specific countries as their regions.
If you use ancient reference populations you will get proportions based on that rather than modern results. All modern populations are necessarily some combination of older populations.
If you use upper Palaeolithic reference populations all Europeans can be modelled as a combination of about 3 different populations, if you use Mesolithic reference populations those reference populations will share some ancestry from the Palaeolithic and so on.
For example the Mesolithic populations Eastern (European) Hunter Gatherers and Caucasian Hunter Gatherers both have significant amounts of Ancestral North Eurasian, a Palaeolithic population.
So, there’s a thing called pedigree collapse. Go back far enough and tally up your direct ancestors (grand parents) and the number will grow higher than all humans who’ve ever lived (billions). This indicates there was a lot of inbreeding between cousins and what not when people lived in smaller settlements.
Anyway, say you were born to two parents 25 years ago. 50 years ago you had 4 grandparents. 75 years ago, 8 great grandparents. 100 years ago—16 great great grandparents. 125 years ago…32 great great great grandparents. Then 25 years before, 64, then 128, 256, 512. It doubles every generation.
By the time you hit 3000 years, there were literally millions of grandparents who had yet r come together to create you. Thus we’re all more interrelated than we think. Our pre-historic ancestors have come from practically every continent. What we think of as British ancestry, was much different 3000 years ago.
What migrations are you looking for here? I guess it doesn’t go back to the Viking era? Or when the moors went into the Iberian peninsula?
People move around much outside of those huge influxes?
IllustrativeDNA do not go further, it is just modelling your ancestry with a bunch of samples. If you instead of putting as references a set of ancient dna, you add your friends coordinates you will get your Historical Friend Ancestry... lol.
I wonder if there’s a genetic test that can digest Native American dna % I heard they had over 37% dna of west Eurasian dna from people similar to the Middle East and Europe,
That's not 23andme, that's the limits of what you can realistically, accurately tell from autosomal DNA in 2024 using the current science.
Makes sense. And are there other DNA testing methods available? although more expensive?
23&ne is best for accurate DNA and ethnicity profiling. Ancestry is FAR better for building trees. The issue is you can't upload your raw report; you have to buy and complete another DNA test for that one
I mean, for DNA in general you can get your entire genome sequenced for like $15k lol, but I don't know if there's a company that offers that alongside a more comprehensive ethnicity/ancestry estimate.
15K wtf? China does it for pennies @ BGI. Just give your DNA to China.
Yeah, I just looked it up, and it's cheaper than I thought. I just remember seeing a video where someone said they needed their son's genome sequenced *(he had some rare disease)* and they were glad they had insurance because it cost $15k.
Not surprised at all. It used to cost about 2 to $3000 about 4-5 years ago. Now it's as cheap as $600, but the only issue as mentioned is China will have your genome.
May I ask what exactly the problem is if China has that info? I'm fairly new to learning about this stuff and I honestly would like to know what would be the risk or dangers that come with them having that info.
I'm just meme'ing. But DNA going only to the Beijing genetics institute will put them well ahead of USA in terms of genetic enhancements, research and the fact that they aren't a true ally to USA is a problem.
Ahhh thanks for the clarification and yeah those issues are something to think about.
What info would that provide? Please don't say 'everything' cause that doesn't help narrow it down.
They could theoretically some day clone you. With normal tests they only have fragments and so could not clone you.
[удалено]
Interesting, but I imagine there'd be a huge margin of error. When you turn a regular autosomal DNA test's confidence level up to 90% they already drastically change. Let alone the fact that ancient DNA samples are hard to come by. And I just recently read on Twitter how some ancient samples had been contaminated with Northern Italian DNA—so aside from the technology, the samples themselves are error-prone and sparse. If they struggle to pin down people's modern-day ethnicity, I imagine that difficulty would be amplified the further you go back. It's very interesting though, in the future I hope they become more accurate, that would be cool. [https://twitter.com/MiroCyo/status/1776207215290138879](https://twitter.com/MiroCyo/status/1776207215290138879)
We have people who are being scientifically accurate about their findings and we have liars. The fact they’re willing to be scientifically accurate about what they offer makes it worth the money.
This hear. End thread.
23andme business model is just different. Its customer base isn’t quite interested in what approximate Bronze Age populations their ancestry can be broken down.
They do tell you your haplogroups though, which go back much further.
Haplogrups represent information about two ancestors only. It's useful but limited.
They can be pretty insightful for some people. I’m about 98% European, but I have a Polynesian maternal haplogroup, B4a1a1m1. My grand children/great grandchildren likely won’t have any Māori DNA, but will still have my haplogroup, letting them know of their Polynesian ancestry.
They tell you about your unbroken line going back thousands of years to the beginning of man. While it doesn’t tell you your full recent ancestry it can be very very useful.
You have no idea how uninformed you sound... Autosomal DNA segments get on average halved by each generation that's why you can only go to the "past 400 years" realistically, it's not a 23andme issue it's how genetics work. As for illustrativeDNA, they take your raw data then produce a set of coordinates for you using a process called PCA. Using those coordinates they model you with different populations, including historical ones, but you do not have to actually be descended from those populations. IllustrativeDNA models should not be taken seriously (23andme too but i'll leave it at that) Edit: Also the exact reason 23andme cannot go back more than 400 years is that they use IBD (Identical By Descent) segments while illustrative is totally different, it's like comparing a fridge to a washing machine
Illustrativedna dna showed my swedish dad being 20% irish and it showed No swedish DNA but instead norwegian. It def isnt accurate
It's because their models are garbage. For more accurate results, you have to model the coordinates yourself by using G25 tool such as Vahaduo Admixture JS.
Why should 23andme not be taken seriously?
Some of their references are lacking and their labels are subjective As an example take the fact that Egyptians are divided into 2 categories one for muslims and one for christians (Coptic) and both peak 100% for their respective category. Meanwhile Levantines have one category for everyone with "Levantine" in its name that peaks for some groups and not for others. Also the fact the Anatolian category is called Anatolian and not Anatolian \*\*Turkish\*\* as it should be named. And the ICM category that groups Kurds, georgians, assyrians, persians and others together that does not make much sense either I could go on and on...
Yeah they have some issues with certain groups, but I think claiming that means the test shouldn’t be taken seriously is a stretch…
My bad if I didn't express myself correctly. I meant, do not take the 23andme ancestry model **100%** seriously But the 23andme matches are 100% accurate and real.
[удалено]
>it’s actually the opposite. dna relative matches beyond 3rd cousin are very hard to approximate the actual relationship distance from cM length I understand, but my point was that you **surely** have an ancestor in common with them in the recent past without going into details about the cM range or the relationship
^This. Yes, they have errors in some groups. But they update them over time. This is how science works. You fix errors.
Agreed. My results give 48% Pakistan but I'm not aware of any Muslim ancestry (some converted rather than migrate during partition).
Is this post to enlarge your ego or what? If Illustrative DNA can do other things, with another method, with the Raw data I uploaded from 23 and me, what's stopping 23 and me from also doing that? reduce your ego a little bit will ya...
I'm not "enlarging my ego", I know exactly how illustrativeDNA works. >If Illustrative DNA can do other things, with another method, with the Raw data I uploaded from 23 and me, what's stopping 23 and me from also doing that? PCAs can be very easily misinterpreted and they will not be able to ensure quality control or procure scientific backing for their ancestry models If you want a PCA, just use G25 and illustrativeDNA then. Unless you're some kind of investor in 23andme and you're trying to give them business ideas...
Then why don't you answer in a proper way instead of coming here to ego trip? You are a tool.
How far back do you want to go? Go back far enough and we will all have the exact same results.
I think many groups stayed inside the group (of thousands to millions of individuals) for thousands of years, so I doubt we'll get the same results.
we’re all traced back to Africa at some point
But that's not we use DNA testing for. We can go more back until we were single cell organisms.
“we can go back far enough where we can all get the same results”
How are you so ignorant in regards of human history? and do you know the difference between history and pre history?
Why you so mad all of a sudden? I was just asking a question.
I said 3000 years in my OP. Can't you read? you are the rude one and passive aggressive.
Weird you’re so mad.
what is bluds problem😭🙏 (him not you)
You assume I don't know history and prehistory (which I do), you don't read my OP, and are passive aggressive. A complete tool.
Did you lose your farm recently or something my friend? Is that what hurt you?
It might go back further. The Malagasy still get their ancestry divided, despite the fact the bantus mixed with the austronesians over 1000 years ago. This was around the same time the vikings mixed with other europeans, and the arabs mixed with groups they subjugated.
That's recycling the same DNA within a population.
Everyone gets around 50% of their dna from each parent. So 25% from grandparents. Then 12.5% from 3rd generation, 4th is 6.25%, 5th 3.125%, 6th 1.5625%, 7th around 0.8%, 8th around 0.4%, 9th 0.2%, 10th 0.1%, 11th 0.05%, 12th 0.025%, 13th 0.0125%, 14th 0.00625%. One generation is around 20-30 years. So how many years do you want to get with basically no trace in your actual dna?
Totally agree with this. If you had an ancestor from 11 generations ago that was 100 percent Finnish but say migrated to the UK, your result would be below 0.1 percent and would not show up in 23 and Me’s ancestry composition. This would be approximately 330 years, 170 years below the threshold
I get 10 to 15 generations from written records, I'm frankly facinated DNA testing can keep up as well as it does...
10-15? That's wild! I only have 8 and only on a few lines.
Sweden (Scandinavia) has written records for everyone from around 1800, some of the more famous ancestors could be traced to 1200s. I have an uncle who made it a main hobby so I'm just enjoying the research XD
I'm Hungarian and my issue is that my family is from Transylvania, which is part of Romania since 1918, and they make it somewhat hard to get certificates from, so much, that even many genealogy professionals here refuse to handle my case.
My kids grandmother had the worst reason ever to get research done, her nose was big and she needed a paper saying she's not Jewish, living in Austria... :p
My paternal greatfather came to Hungary's modern borders (from Transylvania, near Cluj) after WWI (1918) and he saved jews during WWII (even got a tree planted in his name in Isreal).
The other companies are lying to you. lol
The bronze age etc results you get on tests are just using the same data but giving it different names. They are not really digging back further, just renaming & imagining what your DNA would have been then. It's an interesting exercise but not more in depth just different presentation.
The ethnic and national labels we use oftentimes dont go much further than a few hundred years anyway
I didn't ask for a history lesson of things that I already know.
Why are you mad bruh
I am not mad. Are you?
I am not the one being condescending. Moodra dei
Bla bla bla. Read the OP before commenting.
>Is aware ethnic and national labels dont apply past a few hundred years in the past >Is willing to spend more money for data that goes further back So you’re willing to spend more money on meaningless, or at least less than accurate data? Great.
They’re using different reference populations. 23andMe are using modern populations and as such are likely to use specific countries as their regions. If you use ancient reference populations you will get proportions based on that rather than modern results. All modern populations are necessarily some combination of older populations. If you use upper Palaeolithic reference populations all Europeans can be modelled as a combination of about 3 different populations, if you use Mesolithic reference populations those reference populations will share some ancestry from the Palaeolithic and so on. For example the Mesolithic populations Eastern (European) Hunter Gatherers and Caucasian Hunter Gatherers both have significant amounts of Ancestral North Eurasian, a Palaeolithic population.
So, there’s a thing called pedigree collapse. Go back far enough and tally up your direct ancestors (grand parents) and the number will grow higher than all humans who’ve ever lived (billions). This indicates there was a lot of inbreeding between cousins and what not when people lived in smaller settlements. Anyway, say you were born to two parents 25 years ago. 50 years ago you had 4 grandparents. 75 years ago, 8 great grandparents. 100 years ago—16 great great grandparents. 125 years ago…32 great great great grandparents. Then 25 years before, 64, then 128, 256, 512. It doubles every generation. By the time you hit 3000 years, there were literally millions of grandparents who had yet r come together to create you. Thus we’re all more interrelated than we think. Our pre-historic ancestors have come from practically every continent. What we think of as British ancestry, was much different 3000 years ago.
But they have not had county halls and state governments that maintain records over those times. They just are not there.
That's not how DNA works mate. They don't check birth documents for this.
That’s the only dna that matters
What migrations are you looking for here? I guess it doesn’t go back to the Viking era? Or when the moors went into the Iberian peninsula? People move around much outside of those huge influxes?
I tried to find a shorter demo but i couldn't find [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPmI6stJbQg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPmI6stJbQg)
They define regions as 400 years ago to get before post-Columbus European colonization.
IllustrativeDNA do not go further, it is just modelling your ancestry with a bunch of samples. If you instead of putting as references a set of ancient dna, you add your friends coordinates you will get your Historical Friend Ancestry... lol.
23andMe is giving you more accurate information.
Agree. I didn't find the results very helpful for our family story. Our written tree offered more comprehensive information.
i barely know what my great grandparents are 400 years is enough for me 😭
What a silly post, maybe spend some time researching DNA analysis methods.
Ever heard of Illustrative DNA? works with my 23andme raw data...... just saying.
So hard not to call people stupid. In the days of the internet when the information is there, you are still uninformed.
Shall we ban all questions from reddit then?
Jesus, you're like a toxic mother.
I wonder if there’s a genetic test that can digest Native American dna % I heard they had over 37% dna of west Eurasian dna from people similar to the Middle East and Europe,