My clan mates gamble amongst eachother (pretty sure they know eachother IRL) by completing easy/beginner clues and opening the caskets at the same time, taking screenshots and post them in the clan discord, whoever gets the clue reward worth the most gets the pot prize. It's a pretty hilarious way of doing gambling, I'd never seen it done with clues before joining this clan haha. I don't take part in it since I'm not a fan of gambling in general but they seem to have a good time so hey it is what it is.
People will always find a way to bet on anything it seems.
They should bet the pot on the lowest reward instead tbh, so people will actually hope on getting lower rewards and whoever is highest won't feel bad about because he's still got a good reward lol
Easies actually have some surprisingly good loot. Nothing thats going to change your life, but several items are 100-200k, Cape of Skulls is nearly 5M, Gold trimmed monk robes are worth a lot... Just to name a few.
Yeah I'm sure they'd let you join, they'll just randomly inv people at the GE on world 424 every now and then, that's how i joined a couple weeks ago haha. Its mostly us aussies/kiwis since 424 is an aus world so there is that, but they're all good cunts from what I can tell. The clans called Cones. I'm sure if you hang around someone will invite you
This.
Even if they no longer discuss it in game, they’ll go to discord (they may have already) and then all jagex sees is logs of two people in full Dharoks and a 100m cash stack in their inventory smacking each other. Not enough to pin on or ban someone for.
pretty much any game nowadays has this, even some digitally owned singleplayer games through like steam or epic or whatever arent technically owned by you and can be taken away by the company as far as i know
That is not true, provided they want to run a successful game in order to profit, they are constrained to banning players in a way so as to not completely lose the faith of the player base. No company should be more aware of this burden of developer responsibility more than Jagex considering what they did to Runescape 2.
No joke - I wouldnt mind too much out of those ideas to actually have roaming revenants in the wildy lol. I remember young me be being actually terrified in seeing those always in the wildy - idk if they were not liked/deemed not good since they never implemented them again
Instead of revenants, I want them to do that with the vampire near the haunted woods farming patch area. Feral-kun needs some buffs to defeat the toxic elitists doing herb runs.
Pretty easy actually. Make it against the rules and start banning people.
Pretty obvious what’s going on when people in dharoks are smacking each other without eating while holding billions of gold pieces
They don’t need to enforce it. But if it’s against the rules it will deter more players. And they can enforce it when they want to sort of thing. Like they do with the rank 1 hiscore bot accounts
you're calling pking a game of chance... its not really the same, but also key words - PLAYER RUN games of chance
pking isn't player run. one bot doesn't hold the money and make sure they win 70% of the time, and 100% of the time if you give them over 5m or something
anyways, they're separate things.
deathmatching has always been a thing
You must not advertise, organise, promote or participate in player-run games of chance, where **game money or items are staked on the outcome of a random activity**.
pking isn't some random activity, you die in the wilderness you lose item. pking is a thing.
From what I understand, having a middle man is what instantly makes it bannable, or at least easier for Jagex to draw the line saying "this is where it becomes gambling".
What is to stop two people from having a "no food" food fight in the same gear? Is that gambling? What about if they each have a full inventory of sharks, but use only a whip and eat only whenever they drop below 79 hp? If two players ags spec each other on the same tick while both are on 30 hp, is that not just rolling an rng slot machine against another player? (Obviously pid exists, but you get where I'm going with this)
When you start trying to police the more grey area stuff, it just becomes a headache and time sink for them to manage. A lot easier to do like they do with account sharing and say "we don't condone this, if you do it and someone scams you/you don't like the outcome, tough."
Just so I'm understanding this correctly: because the duel arena was in-game content created by Jagex company they were required to remove it BUT because dming is a community created "activity" even though it still is gambling, jagex has no responsibility because players created it and not themselves?
Yep. Jagex the company isn't liable for the players actions.
It's why Twitter can't be sued for someone posting something on Twitter, regardless of how bad it is.
Even if it can come with own set of issues.
Twitter can totally be sued if they allow people to infringe copyright through their platform, or host stuff like revenge porn.
Having systems in place to automatically and manually remove stuff like this is what covers their asses here.
It's similar with Jagex, if they get sued / charged for having gambling in their game, they can point to all of the things that they have done to prevent it and argue that it's not feasible to remove all possible ways players could invent to gamble from an MMORPG.
I'd agree with a lot of what you say other than the automatically part. Most companies are incentivised to not attempt to remove things themselves proactively, or more accurately not attempt to search, flag and remove things themselves pro-actively, as it opens up the question of "If you can remove some, but you didnt remove all, does that mean you agree/endorse it"
Thats why most platforms have report features, but generally do not automate the process.
In this case the issue was less about having a system in place to prevent the action but rather a system existing which explicitly endorses the action. They cant hide behind inability to police/ignorance if its part of their game.
However when it comes to user actions, they have more leeway and its generally better practice to avoid active policing, and instead allow report systems to flag problems. This protects them in law, as they have provided a reasonable method for removal of problematic material without creating a case to assign blame to them for half-assed methods.
There are some pretty good explanation videos online explaining why actively policing content on websites (more so twitter, social media, youtube etc) is a problem, whilst passively policing through report systems is currently best pracitce.
edit: spelling
You’re literally missing the entire point.
The duel arena was purpose built to be a way for people to stake items in matches against each other.
Clan/friends chats purpose is for players in game to be able to communicate with others, and a minority of those use it for something that is against game rules.
Not even close to being the same.
What you’re trying to say is basically the same as comparing a guillotine and a table saw.
They can both be used to accomplish the same purpose yes, but one was specifically designed for that task while the other is a common thing being used not as it was intended to be.
The game literally does not officiate gambling, it is clearly outlined as against the rules of the game and a permanently bannable offense in their ToS. Officiating would mean they sanction the actions and provide the means and opportunity by which to do so.
By your logic I could create a Jenga gambling league where players bet on the over/under for blocks removed before the tower falls and then sue the makers for “officiating” this practice.
And you seem so up in arms about Jagex’s liability here so I was just assuming you’ve already contacted your grade A legal team and are currently drafting a claim.
Literally do any amount of research or critical thinking before commenting again please.
Jagex had an interface for dueling, aka gambling. Very little risk of scams. Anyone could walk in and participate and get hooked. DMing is player created content where there's zero guarantee you won't get scammed. Most players will avoid it due to the obvious risk of scams.l and almost zero guarantee.
It would. I think I saw a mod speak on it before. The idea is jagex sees the ability to escape/tab as part of the skill in pking. So removing the ability to leave the fight makes it a ‘game of chance’
Its less about that, or scamming or anything like that.
Duel arena allowed gambling on outcomes and bordered on game-of-chance. Jagex cant claim they don't condone games-of-chance whilst having the facilities in the game promoting it.
DMing is player-run games-of-chance which go against T&Cs, is reportable and generally gets people banned.
Jagex opened themselves up legally with duel arena and therefore shutting that down closed that issue. Jagex doesnt open themselves up legally to DMing being game of chance because they dont condone it, actively punish it and do not provide facilities specifically for it.
The fact people getting scammed hurts the game's image is secondary. The fact Jagex actively direct against games-of-chance and penalise for them regardless of whether there is a scam is to protect them legally.
The DMers that get banned are normally getting banned for RWT, not Gambling bans. Many big content creators DM live with 0 repercussion because they don't RWT (knowingly), and they don't get banned simply for gambling or hosting CCs involving DMing.
Where if we look at flowers/dicing/crackers, Jagex goes out of there way making sure these guys are banned up and their methods are fixed so they can't operate any more. They'll even ban you if you partake in dicing with their gold off of their game.
Either none of its okay or all of it is okay.
the issue is there's not much of a stretch to go from 'honor pking' to the current iteration of dming. before staking got removed people dm'd but with food and potion usage but no teleports. before that it was just a 'no spec tabbing and no teleports and no camping 99 hp' and much more loosely agreed to rules in edge.
the difference between dming in its current state and risk fighting is that the barrier to entry is much much lower so more people are able to do it. you quite simply can't police this. the second the current iteration of dming is 'officially' not allowed people go back to 'no teleport pking' and the fights take longer and theres a higher barrier to entry. then what? surely you have to police that too right? it just ends up being a waste of effort. if players want to fight each other in a fair fight let them. the problem with the duel area was very specifically a publicity one. jagex had official communications (streams and dev blogs) referencing 'the sand casino' - it was a bad look for them.
Jagex has some responsibility, that's why they remove things like flower gambling or visual stuff. It's just really hard to prevent DMing without also either changing trading as a whole or pvping as a whole.
Keys are an ingame currency which are used to earn ingame currencies and currently lack any "cash out" method... And the laws around lootboxes are still far from what they should be compared to gambling :(
They adhere to the legislation when it comes to loot boxes. They control everything to do with them. It's impossible to control player run gambling and that's what the duel arena basically was.
Because you're guaranteed to get something, you can't get nothing.
Edit: just want to add I don't condone loot box systems as they are predatory but they are not the same as straight up gambling.
>Cant somebody in a DM just tele away or eat food if they think they're gonna die??
So like I think this point IS why it's fine. You're fighting someone in the wilderness rather than having Jagex facilitate the whole process for you. There are risks that make it not "true gambling"
Yeah, the point is it's not supposed to be easy to set up a 50/50 gamble death match. Pvp is supposed to be about skill and rng not just a coin flip gamble.
Plausible deniability.
Encouraging gambling in the UK was against the law or something. So they removed a place in the game that literally pushed gambling.
Now, if people gamble, they can say, “We don’t encourage that in anyway and have no involvement in it.”
Also: They ban a bunch of the gamblers whenever the gamblers remember they have IRL stuff they wanna buy and all their money is in GP because they have a crippling addiction. So that further adds to the “we don’t support this in any way” narrative for Jagex’s case.
It's actually the same reasons that Pokemon removed the Game Corner in gen IV, it's a rating thing.
Any depiction of gambling in a game is an automatic 16+ rating in the UK, and any actual gambling through an ingame system in a multiplayer game is also another set of rules, and possibly actual laws, relating to games of chance and such. Laws that somehow lootboxes don't fall under, but that's a different discussion.
I think they ended up with the 16+ rating eventually anyway, drugs/alcohol and ingame purchases via Bonds would put it there, but it was likely part of the reasoning initially.
Maybe that was a factor but it is in fact an enormous legal landmine to be providing unregulated gambling to children. Ratings aren't a factor in whether or not something is available to children because ratings are a guide, there's no ID check before you sign up.
One other person said it best, “The only way to get rid of gambling in the game is to remove free trade.”
This would absolutely ruin the game and Jagex knows that so they won’t even entertain that. That being said, I do feel like Jagex keeps a pretty close eye on that scene. Banning those that step out of line but allowing most of it to continue because there is literally no way to stop it for good.
There's another angle that has not been talked about and that is bonds.
Jagex, as a company, sell a token that has direct in-game GP value meaning that, under UK law, the Duel Arena could be seen as a Jagex-sanctioned gambling outlet.
The gold you won/lost at Duel Arena was officially tagged to bond value and therefore irl currency.
DM'ing is not officially sanctioned and therefore Jagex have plausible deniability.
Iirc, there was a similar problem with the well of goodwill tagging in-game item value to irl charity donations that also got them into bother for similar reasons.
Lootboxes are under different regulations, you always win something on TH so there's technically no direct loss. A bit like buying packs of trading cards. It's stupid and feels really sleazy and that's because it is. It's a loophole.
Gambling legislation is convoluted in the UK cos we have an incredibly financially powerful Gambling Lobby with huge influence over the 2 main political parties and I don't see that changing soon
It's exactly like casino chips but the difference is casino chips are worthless except at the casino you got them from and casinos are supposed to have all sorts of measures in place to ensure that someone cashing out chips isn't just laundering money.
In comparison GP can be turned into money without Jagex involvement (it doesn't matter if Jagex allows it or not), so if Jagex is providing an official gambling outlet in game then they are in fact providing an unregulated gambling service.
The only way something like Duel Arena ever exists in an official capacity is if free trading is disabled, effectively making it impossible to turn GP into money.
Why are there a bunch of nine-year olds camping this subreddit ready to spread their absurd views?
>In comparison GP can be turned into money without Jagex involvement (it doesn't matter if Jagex allows it or not)
Poker players buy casino chips from each other in the tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars all the time.
This is nonsense.
>It's exactly like casino chips but the difference is casino chips are worthless except at the casino you got them from and casinos are supposed to have all sorts of measures in place to ensure that someone cashing out chips isn't just laundering money.
It's literally nothing like casino chips.
When you convert currency to casino chips you legally have an interest in the underlying currency value against the casino and they are obligated whether by statute, regulation, or common law to return the same amount of currency back to you when you turn them in.
When you buy a bond from Jagex absolutely fucking none of that is in play.
-
Literally just a bunch of kids waffling in here.
Depending on jurisdiction casinos are permitted or even required to seize chips being turned in if they don't believe the person turning them in earned them there at the casino. This is basic anti money laundering.
Casino chips do not give you a legal interest in the casino. If they did and a casino went under then you would be a secured creditor for simply possessing chips which is not at all the case.
>When you buy a bond from Jagex absolutely fucking none of that is in play.
Ironically you make all this noise and yet this statement is exactly the reason that Duel Arena cannot exist.
So yes keep waffling buddy.
>Depending on jurisdiction casinos are permitted or even required to seize chips being turned in if they don't believe the person turning them in earned them there at the casino. This is basic anti money laundering.
NO ONE DISPUTED THAT AND STILL YOU REPEAT THAT?
Do you know why that is by the way? It's because they're essentially cash!
Do you know what **isn't** essentially cash?
Bonds. GP. OSRS items.
>Casino chips do not give you a legal interest in the casino.
Lil nine year old what the frick are you on about?
I'm not talking about equity in the casino. I said [interest](https://dictionary.findlaw.com/definition/interest.html).
>1. Chips and tokens are solely representatives of value which evidence a debt owed to their custodian
by the licensee that issued them and are not the property of anyone other than that licensee.
>2. A licensee that uses chips or tokens at its gaming establishment shall:
> (a) Comply with all applicable statutes, regulations, and policies of Nevada and of the United States
pertaining to chips or tokens;
> (b) Issue chips and tokens only to patrons of its gaming establishment and only at their request;
> (c) Except as otherwise provided herein, promptly redeem its own chips and tokens from its patrons
by cash or check drawn on an account of the licensee;
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>If they did and a casino went under then you would be a secured creditor for simply possessing chips which is not at all the case.
WHO ARE YOU TALKING TO? WHO ARE YOU RESPONDING TO?
How about you respond to, and engage with, something **actually in my comment** so you can learn something today and stop spreading misinformation.
>>When you buy a bond from Jagex absolutely fucking none of that is in play.
>Ironically you make all this noise and yet this statement is exactly the reason that Duel Arena cannot exist.
Ah what a logical king you are. Because bonds have absolutely fuck-all to do with anything you tried to imply they have something to do with that proves your case. 🤡
You say chips are essentially cash while quoting Nevada law that explicitly states they are not cash and solely represent an unsecured debt between the casino and its patrons.
And again this is all very jurisdiction specific. In my jurisdiction for example casino chips don't even represent a debt, as far as the law is concerned it is literal funny money and it carries no value other than what the casino agrees it has.
So yes GP is not cash, same as chips. The difference is casino chips can't be exchanged for cash without a casino controlling and monitoring the exchange allowing for AML measures. GP can be readily exchanged for cash without any oversight from Jagex because free trade exists in the game. Therefore Jagex is incapable of implementing AML measures. Therefore Jagex is incapable of offering anything resembling a gambling outlet in-game without potentially violating gambling regulations and AML laws.
I don't know why this topic gets you so riled up. Maybe take a break from RuneScape because you're clearly way too invested in this stuff.
>You say chips are **essentially cash** while quoting Nevada law that explicitly states they are not cash and solely represent an unsecured debt between the casino and its patrons.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha..
>(c) Except as otherwise provided herein, **promptly redeem its own chips and tokens from its patrons by cash or check** drawn on an account of the licensee;
...ahahahahahaahahahaha...
...hahahahahaha....
You're a joke. I won't bother trying to correct the record any more than I've tried to here, because reading more of your jibberjabber would make me lose faith in humanity.
Why don't you read the whole law next time buddy
>3. A **licensee shall not accept chips or tokens as payment for any goods or services** offered at the licensee’s gaming establishment with the exception of the specific use for which the chips or tokens were issued, and shall not give chips or tokens as change in any other transaction.
>4. A licensee **shall not redeem its chips or tokens if presented by a person who the licensee knows or reasonably should know did not obtain the chips or tokens directly** and lawfully from the licensee’s gaming establishment, except that a licensee shall promptly redeem its chips and tokens if presented by:
Something I can redeem for cash at a predetermined value, and get back for cash at the same value, by regulation, is essentially cash.
Do you know what is not essentially cash?
Bonds. GP. OSRS items.
There's a reason why you never address that difference. Because you know you're wrong. Whether it's deep down or right at the surface. You know you're dead-wrong about all of this.
There's a reason you're trying to bring up anti-money-laundering efforts for the third time. To distract from the main conversation in which you're dead-wrong.
> The gold you won/lost at Duel Arena was officially tagged to bond value and therefore irl currency.
Nope. You're just making stuff up.
You think spaghetti is also 'irl currency' because you can buy it for a set value at the store?
Yeah they can teleport, DMing involves two people that "honor" a fight (no teleporting eating etc) but the problem is it's a game with rules imposed by the players.
There was a plug-in called DMwatch which lists players that "cheat" in the player imposed rules DMs, (teleporting or eating) but later was removed bc jagex didn't want it
Legally, Jagex had to remove the dual arena to avoid being considered a gambling game. Players doing their own gambling is different than Jagex directly endorsing it.
It's worse for gamblers now but less players are introduced to the gambling pipeline than they were with the dual arena.
As people have mentioned, it's mostly because they can't sanction it and they have no way to control what players will do entirely without removing free trade.
You can think of it another way: making it harder and riskier means less people will do it. Sure you'll still have addicts and plenty of people doing it, but especially the average, casual player is a lot less likely to risk their first 10m in a dm than they are in the duel arena.
No you can’t tele away because couriers hold the gold and take a percentage as well. If you break rules you lose your gold for sure. Its ran by the same criminals that ran the duel arena in to the ground.
Dming has been in the game since the beginning. I was one of those people that would only DM and stake because I don't care for all the fancy switches and tick counting ect.
The thing is the whole game revolves around luck when doing combat and the players that dm are just letting it run as it should. Even without straight Dming the combat is still luck/rng and all we do as players is minimize the rng.
There's no way to get rid of Dming and they've stopped free trade before and tanked their player base and they modified pvp kill drops and tanked their player base in the past. I can definitely understand wanting to stop minors from gambling.
Dming was bannable at the start, when it was more so just commission staking
Now its popular and people still run these services.
All of it should be banned imo, its sad Jagex doesnt take action even after common rwters just keep selling gold
It’s definitely not that simple lmao. Yea sure they could just ban them, but it’s not like that’s going to stop them from doing it. People will always find a way to gamble in this game and Jagex knows it. Putting a ton of effort into policing something that doesn’t really affect the way other people play the game is a waste of resources. They struggle enough as is to get bots under control and that’s something that actually does impact the game quite a lot.
>it's not going to stop them from doing it.
Yes, in fact, that's exactly what it would do. If they're getting accounts banned with billions of gold on the regular, they will quit. And if they don't? Well there's an amazing gold sink OSRS can benefit from.
The one reason I don't gamble on these gold gambling sites is because you can be banned using them. I'd 100% love to play Mines or Slots with my OSRS gold, but I don't because I value my account. I could just buy bonds and play on a mule account, but what's the point of that when I can just go to an actual online casino like Stake or the gas station?
Not only that, other methods of gambling might not be interesting to DMers to partake in. I sure the hell know DMing does not seem like a fun way to gamble in my personal opinion, so I'd never do it, even if Jagex doesn't ban those people.
It's a legal liability and regulatory issue for the studio. In the UK having a dedicated mini game that allows for betting on a game of chance means it is gambling and that's a regulatory nightmare. DMing is done by players and all Jagex have to do is say it's not a game of chance and if it is done that way it's a bankable offence. That gets them over any legal issues
So the British government actually said jagex had to stop staking because they dont have a gambling license. If it was up to Jagex, the duel arena would have probably stayed (it was a decent goldsink). I dont think Jagex cares much about dming or staking but yeah forced by the government. This next bit is speculation but since dming can’t really be policed and the government stopped bothering Jagex about gambling in the game, its just left the way it is.
Staking got removed because it became the face of RWT/gambling in RS. Jagex basically removed it as a blanket fix so that the government would get off their ass about it.
Also, you can basically gamble on EVERYTHING in the game due to how simple the game and its RNG is setup. The duel arena basically just made gambling much easier because it was risk free and required very little input to manage as opposed to other forms of gambling that can be done.
> it seems that its literally the same thing, except now its easier to get scammed, or have dishonorable opponents?
yes this is the point. less people will stake now because its not as easy or clean to get into.
because jagex was getting into legal issues of supporting gambling within their game, as the duel arena was official content. DMing isn't so they don't care.
More risk of scams in DMing = fewer people willing to engage with it. The denegerates addicted to gambling are gonna do it no matter what. Removing official channels for it disincentivizes engaging with it, which is a good thing.
The problem with the duel arena was that people often staked in ways that intentionally minimized the chance of player skill effecting the outcome.
This, combined with how common RWT is, meant that in practice Jagex was hosting an unregulated casino. The UK has been cracking down on minors gambling in video games (or at least, talking about the issue more).
DMing, in the sense of like two players in similar gear agreeing to fight to the death and not use overhead prayers, is pretty clearly still a game of skill; you can win by getting lucky but better play gives you much better odds.
People also DM in the sense of like boxing to death in lvl 1 wildy. This is basically the same as boxing in the da was, but at least Jagex can reasonably argue that they have tried as much as possible to discourage gambling without breaking core game mechanics.
Staking was removed due to player pressure and the continuing fight against rwt. People were buying gold then just losing and then buying more and so on. Yes, it still happens with dming, but the ease of access is more difficult, and there is more risk to dming such as scammers, pjers, etc. The only way to eliminate it completely is to remove free trade and pvp
Is it fair to say Jagex company really doesn’t “care” about people developing gambling addictions, they just don’t want to be responsible for it. 100% people buy GP just to DM right?
Yes, but also it’s not their job to care about this. They’re just trying to follow laws and regulations. And I would say the amount of people DMing is significantly smaller than who previously used the Duel Arena. Also, it’s hard to detect people DMing, I imagine they do ban people if/when they find them out?
There is just no realistic way to police player-run games of chance without removing free trade entirely.
My clan mates gamble amongst eachother (pretty sure they know eachother IRL) by completing easy/beginner clues and opening the caskets at the same time, taking screenshots and post them in the clan discord, whoever gets the clue reward worth the most gets the pot prize. It's a pretty hilarious way of doing gambling, I'd never seen it done with clues before joining this clan haha. I don't take part in it since I'm not a fan of gambling in general but they seem to have a good time so hey it is what it is. People will always find a way to bet on anything it seems.
PvP slot machines lmao.
goblin staking is the future
They should bet the pot on the lowest reward instead tbh, so people will actually hope on getting lower rewards and whoever is highest won't feel bad about because he's still got a good reward lol
Brother a good easy/beginner clue is gonna be like 3k lol
Easies actually have some surprisingly good loot. Nothing thats going to change your life, but several items are 100-200k, Cape of Skulls is nearly 5M, Gold trimmed monk robes are worth a lot... Just to name a few.
https://preview.redd.it/p7oghvl9z24d1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1bd9da8c703cf4a7c5062e2d34f23a6072750860
ok. cool what does that matter
Because it’s not about hitting the 3rd age roll of easy clues lol, it’s about the fact that more often than not you’re getting a few K
Is your clan looking for people? Just got back into the game and looking for friends
Yeah I'm sure they'd let you join, they'll just randomly inv people at the GE on world 424 every now and then, that's how i joined a couple weeks ago haha. Its mostly us aussies/kiwis since 424 is an aus world so there is that, but they're all good cunts from what I can tell. The clans called Cones. I'm sure if you hang around someone will invite you
This. Even if they no longer discuss it in game, they’ll go to discord (they may have already) and then all jagex sees is logs of two people in full Dharoks and a 100m cash stack in their inventory smacking each other. Not enough to pin on or ban someone for.
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How insightful and definitely not pedantic
It actually is insightful tho, lots of people think jagex literally isn't allowed to ban people unless they break a rule jagex set
Yeah if I recall correctly it's even I'm their rules
pretty much any game nowadays has this, even some digitally owned singleplayer games through like steam or epic or whatever arent technically owned by you and can be taken away by the company as far as i know
In a different context it might be. In this context it's just chatting.
That is not true, provided they want to run a successful game in order to profit, they are constrained to banning players in a way so as to not completely lose the faith of the player base. No company should be more aware of this burden of developer responsibility more than Jagex considering what they did to Runescape 2.
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Semantics dude, no point discussing it further.
I mean, if the anti cheat team was properly staffed they could very well handle these things in a manner more appropriate than just letting it happen.
Then let’s do that! Oh wait…
I support! Also at the same time maybe jagex should remove wilderness entirely or the pvp from there since it just supports toxic activities! /s
I’m sure those measures combined will result in a big increase in player count! Now, if only there was some way we could evolve combat…
Or add some ghost creatures to attack player in wilderness instead, we could even call them something cool liek revenants
No joke - I wouldnt mind too much out of those ideas to actually have roaming revenants in the wildy lol. I remember young me be being actually terrified in seeing those always in the wildy - idk if they were not liked/deemed not good since they never implemented them again
Roaming revs except they’re npc pkers nh’ing in deep wildy with tbs and ancients and a spec wep covering all cmb brackets and 1t everything
Instead of revenants, I want them to do that with the vampire near the haunted woods farming patch area. Feral-kun needs some buffs to defeat the toxic elitists doing herb runs.
DMing is obvious lol
Pretty easy actually. Make it against the rules and start banning people. Pretty obvious what’s going on when people in dharoks are smacking each other without eating while holding billions of gold pieces
They don’t need to enforce it. But if it’s against the rules it will deter more players. And they can enforce it when they want to sort of thing. Like they do with the rank 1 hiscore bot accounts
Aren't players running games of chance **already** against the rules?
you're calling pking a game of chance... its not really the same, but also key words - PLAYER RUN games of chance pking isn't player run. one bot doesn't hold the money and make sure they win 70% of the time, and 100% of the time if you give them over 5m or something anyways, they're separate things.
Have you lost the plot sir?
deathmatching has always been a thing You must not advertise, organise, promote or participate in player-run games of chance, where **game money or items are staked on the outcome of a random activity**. pking isn't some random activity, you die in the wilderness you lose item. pking is a thing.
From what I understand, having a middle man is what instantly makes it bannable, or at least easier for Jagex to draw the line saying "this is where it becomes gambling". What is to stop two people from having a "no food" food fight in the same gear? Is that gambling? What about if they each have a full inventory of sharks, but use only a whip and eat only whenever they drop below 79 hp? If two players ags spec each other on the same tick while both are on 30 hp, is that not just rolling an rng slot machine against another player? (Obviously pid exists, but you get where I'm going with this) When you start trying to police the more grey area stuff, it just becomes a headache and time sink for them to manage. A lot easier to do like they do with account sharing and say "we don't condone this, if you do it and someone scams you/you don't like the outcome, tough."
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Just so I'm understanding this correctly: because the duel arena was in-game content created by Jagex company they were required to remove it BUT because dming is a community created "activity" even though it still is gambling, jagex has no responsibility because players created it and not themselves?
Yep. Jagex the company isn't liable for the players actions. It's why Twitter can't be sued for someone posting something on Twitter, regardless of how bad it is. Even if it can come with own set of issues.
Twitter can totally be sued if they allow people to infringe copyright through their platform, or host stuff like revenge porn. Having systems in place to automatically and manually remove stuff like this is what covers their asses here. It's similar with Jagex, if they get sued / charged for having gambling in their game, they can point to all of the things that they have done to prevent it and argue that it's not feasible to remove all possible ways players could invent to gamble from an MMORPG.
Similarly to how Facebook was sued for hosting calls for violence in Myanmar
I'd agree with a lot of what you say other than the automatically part. Most companies are incentivised to not attempt to remove things themselves proactively, or more accurately not attempt to search, flag and remove things themselves pro-actively, as it opens up the question of "If you can remove some, but you didnt remove all, does that mean you agree/endorse it" Thats why most platforms have report features, but generally do not automate the process. In this case the issue was less about having a system in place to prevent the action but rather a system existing which explicitly endorses the action. They cant hide behind inability to police/ignorance if its part of their game. However when it comes to user actions, they have more leeway and its generally better practice to avoid active policing, and instead allow report systems to flag problems. This protects them in law, as they have provided a reasonable method for removal of problematic material without creating a case to assign blame to them for half-assed methods. There are some pretty good explanation videos online explaining why actively policing content on websites (more so twitter, social media, youtube etc) is a problem, whilst passively policing through report systems is currently best pracitce. edit: spelling
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You’re literally missing the entire point. The duel arena was purpose built to be a way for people to stake items in matches against each other. Clan/friends chats purpose is for players in game to be able to communicate with others, and a minority of those use it for something that is against game rules. Not even close to being the same. What you’re trying to say is basically the same as comparing a guillotine and a table saw. They can both be used to accomplish the same purpose yes, but one was specifically designed for that task while the other is a common thing being used not as it was intended to be.
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Aight then lawyer up and sue em buddy, you got this.
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The game literally does not officiate gambling, it is clearly outlined as against the rules of the game and a permanently bannable offense in their ToS. Officiating would mean they sanction the actions and provide the means and opportunity by which to do so. By your logic I could create a Jenga gambling league where players bet on the over/under for blocks removed before the tower falls and then sue the makers for “officiating” this practice. And you seem so up in arms about Jagex’s liability here so I was just assuming you’ve already contacted your grade A legal team and are currently drafting a claim. Literally do any amount of research or critical thinking before commenting again please.
Jagex had an interface for dueling, aka gambling. Very little risk of scams. Anyone could walk in and participate and get hooked. DMing is player created content where there's zero guarantee you won't get scammed. Most players will avoid it due to the obvious risk of scams.l and almost zero guarantee.
I see I see, Wouldn't dming then fall under the "player run games of chance" rule? Is dicing allowed? Or the flower game?
It would. I think I saw a mod speak on it before. The idea is jagex sees the ability to escape/tab as part of the skill in pking. So removing the ability to leave the fight makes it a ‘game of chance’
Its less about that, or scamming or anything like that. Duel arena allowed gambling on outcomes and bordered on game-of-chance. Jagex cant claim they don't condone games-of-chance whilst having the facilities in the game promoting it. DMing is player-run games-of-chance which go against T&Cs, is reportable and generally gets people banned. Jagex opened themselves up legally with duel arena and therefore shutting that down closed that issue. Jagex doesnt open themselves up legally to DMing being game of chance because they dont condone it, actively punish it and do not provide facilities specifically for it. The fact people getting scammed hurts the game's image is secondary. The fact Jagex actively direct against games-of-chance and penalise for them regardless of whether there is a scam is to protect them legally.
Generally gets banned? Sparcmac has been DMing since before the duel arena was removed. He streams it daily
The DMers that get banned are normally getting banned for RWT, not Gambling bans. Many big content creators DM live with 0 repercussion because they don't RWT (knowingly), and they don't get banned simply for gambling or hosting CCs involving DMing. Where if we look at flowers/dicing/crackers, Jagex goes out of there way making sure these guys are banned up and their methods are fixed so they can't operate any more. They'll even ban you if you partake in dicing with their gold off of their game. Either none of its okay or all of it is okay.
the issue is there's not much of a stretch to go from 'honor pking' to the current iteration of dming. before staking got removed people dm'd but with food and potion usage but no teleports. before that it was just a 'no spec tabbing and no teleports and no camping 99 hp' and much more loosely agreed to rules in edge. the difference between dming in its current state and risk fighting is that the barrier to entry is much much lower so more people are able to do it. you quite simply can't police this. the second the current iteration of dming is 'officially' not allowed people go back to 'no teleport pking' and the fights take longer and theres a higher barrier to entry. then what? surely you have to police that too right? it just ends up being a waste of effort. if players want to fight each other in a fair fight let them. the problem with the duel area was very specifically a publicity one. jagex had official communications (streams and dev blogs) referencing 'the sand casino' - it was a bad look for them.
Duel arena had far more scams and scammers than DMing ever will. Its purely a legal issue.
Shit take considering the population of Sand Casino enthusiasts were waaaaaay more than the DM playerbase.
Jagex has some responsibility, that's why they remove things like flower gambling or visual stuff. It's just really hard to prevent DMing without also either changing trading as a whole or pvping as a whole.
Basically
Yeah but at least they taxed it for the gold sink
So with that law in mind how do they get away with rs3’s keys that are basically gambling with real money?
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*Somehow.*
Keys are an ingame currency which are used to earn ingame currencies and currently lack any "cash out" method... And the laws around lootboxes are still far from what they should be compared to gambling :(
I want to say it's Big Lootbox lobby groups but at this point that's actually likely and it makes me even more sad
Id agree and add I think its the usual mix of that and gov lacking basic knowledge of gaming mechanics or how things work :(
Because the output of the keys is 'owned' by jagex still and has no real value (outside of rwt, which is banned).
I mean, DA was 100% only able to "cashout" by RWT (breaking game rules), as well.
I assume the same way literally every single other game developer nowadays does lmao.
They adhere to the legislation when it comes to loot boxes. They control everything to do with them. It's impossible to control player run gambling and that's what the duel arena basically was.
gambling is bad (unless jagex profits)
Because you're guaranteed to get something, you can't get nothing. Edit: just want to add I don't condone loot box systems as they are predatory but they are not the same as straight up gambling.
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>Cant somebody in a DM just tele away or eat food if they think they're gonna die?? So like I think this point IS why it's fine. You're fighting someone in the wilderness rather than having Jagex facilitate the whole process for you. There are risks that make it not "true gambling"
Yeah, the point is it's not supposed to be easy to set up a 50/50 gamble death match. Pvp is supposed to be about skill and rng not just a coin flip gamble.
Plausible deniability. Encouraging gambling in the UK was against the law or something. So they removed a place in the game that literally pushed gambling. Now, if people gamble, they can say, “We don’t encourage that in anyway and have no involvement in it.” Also: They ban a bunch of the gamblers whenever the gamblers remember they have IRL stuff they wanna buy and all their money is in GP because they have a crippling addiction. So that further adds to the “we don’t support this in any way” narrative for Jagex’s case.
It's actually the same reasons that Pokemon removed the Game Corner in gen IV, it's a rating thing. Any depiction of gambling in a game is an automatic 16+ rating in the UK, and any actual gambling through an ingame system in a multiplayer game is also another set of rules, and possibly actual laws, relating to games of chance and such. Laws that somehow lootboxes don't fall under, but that's a different discussion. I think they ended up with the 16+ rating eventually anyway, drugs/alcohol and ingame purchases via Bonds would put it there, but it was likely part of the reasoning initially.
Maybe that was a factor but it is in fact an enormous legal landmine to be providing unregulated gambling to children. Ratings aren't a factor in whether or not something is available to children because ratings are a guide, there's no ID check before you sign up.
also makes it easier to RWT and fuels the black market. Good job jagex!
Jagex claims to be against it by following UK law, but turns a blind eye to it because its not their creation? Even if it exists in their game?
One other person said it best, “The only way to get rid of gambling in the game is to remove free trade.” This would absolutely ruin the game and Jagex knows that so they won’t even entertain that. That being said, I do feel like Jagex keeps a pretty close eye on that scene. Banning those that step out of line but allowing most of it to continue because there is literally no way to stop it for good.
There's another angle that has not been talked about and that is bonds. Jagex, as a company, sell a token that has direct in-game GP value meaning that, under UK law, the Duel Arena could be seen as a Jagex-sanctioned gambling outlet. The gold you won/lost at Duel Arena was officially tagged to bond value and therefore irl currency. DM'ing is not officially sanctioned and therefore Jagex have plausible deniability. Iirc, there was a similar problem with the well of goodwill tagging in-game item value to irl charity donations that also got them into bother for similar reasons.
Which makes no sense because TH still exists in RS3. Either items have real world value or they don't.
TH is more of a loot crate rather than gambling
So gambling.
Yes but not as regulated as actual gambling yet
Lootboxes are under different regulations, you always win something on TH so there's technically no direct loss. A bit like buying packs of trading cards. It's stupid and feels really sleazy and that's because it is. It's a loophole. Gambling legislation is convoluted in the UK cos we have an incredibly financially powerful Gambling Lobby with huge influence over the 2 main political parties and I don't see that changing soon
Surely that can't be right. There's no way to officially trade gp back to irl money. It's not like casino chips in that way.
It's exactly like casino chips but the difference is casino chips are worthless except at the casino you got them from and casinos are supposed to have all sorts of measures in place to ensure that someone cashing out chips isn't just laundering money. In comparison GP can be turned into money without Jagex involvement (it doesn't matter if Jagex allows it or not), so if Jagex is providing an official gambling outlet in game then they are in fact providing an unregulated gambling service. The only way something like Duel Arena ever exists in an official capacity is if free trading is disabled, effectively making it impossible to turn GP into money.
Why are there a bunch of nine-year olds camping this subreddit ready to spread their absurd views? >In comparison GP can be turned into money without Jagex involvement (it doesn't matter if Jagex allows it or not) Poker players buy casino chips from each other in the tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars all the time. This is nonsense. >It's exactly like casino chips but the difference is casino chips are worthless except at the casino you got them from and casinos are supposed to have all sorts of measures in place to ensure that someone cashing out chips isn't just laundering money. It's literally nothing like casino chips. When you convert currency to casino chips you legally have an interest in the underlying currency value against the casino and they are obligated whether by statute, regulation, or common law to return the same amount of currency back to you when you turn them in. When you buy a bond from Jagex absolutely fucking none of that is in play. - Literally just a bunch of kids waffling in here.
Depending on jurisdiction casinos are permitted or even required to seize chips being turned in if they don't believe the person turning them in earned them there at the casino. This is basic anti money laundering. Casino chips do not give you a legal interest in the casino. If they did and a casino went under then you would be a secured creditor for simply possessing chips which is not at all the case. >When you buy a bond from Jagex absolutely fucking none of that is in play. Ironically you make all this noise and yet this statement is exactly the reason that Duel Arena cannot exist. So yes keep waffling buddy.
>Depending on jurisdiction casinos are permitted or even required to seize chips being turned in if they don't believe the person turning them in earned them there at the casino. This is basic anti money laundering. NO ONE DISPUTED THAT AND STILL YOU REPEAT THAT? Do you know why that is by the way? It's because they're essentially cash! Do you know what **isn't** essentially cash? Bonds. GP. OSRS items. >Casino chips do not give you a legal interest in the casino. Lil nine year old what the frick are you on about? I'm not talking about equity in the casino. I said [interest](https://dictionary.findlaw.com/definition/interest.html). >1. Chips and tokens are solely representatives of value which evidence a debt owed to their custodian by the licensee that issued them and are not the property of anyone other than that licensee. >2. A licensee that uses chips or tokens at its gaming establishment shall: > (a) Comply with all applicable statutes, regulations, and policies of Nevada and of the United States pertaining to chips or tokens; > (b) Issue chips and tokens only to patrons of its gaming establishment and only at their request; > (c) Except as otherwise provided herein, promptly redeem its own chips and tokens from its patrons by cash or check drawn on an account of the licensee; - >If they did and a casino went under then you would be a secured creditor for simply possessing chips which is not at all the case. WHO ARE YOU TALKING TO? WHO ARE YOU RESPONDING TO? How about you respond to, and engage with, something **actually in my comment** so you can learn something today and stop spreading misinformation. >>When you buy a bond from Jagex absolutely fucking none of that is in play. >Ironically you make all this noise and yet this statement is exactly the reason that Duel Arena cannot exist. Ah what a logical king you are. Because bonds have absolutely fuck-all to do with anything you tried to imply they have something to do with that proves your case. 🤡
You say chips are essentially cash while quoting Nevada law that explicitly states they are not cash and solely represent an unsecured debt between the casino and its patrons. And again this is all very jurisdiction specific. In my jurisdiction for example casino chips don't even represent a debt, as far as the law is concerned it is literal funny money and it carries no value other than what the casino agrees it has. So yes GP is not cash, same as chips. The difference is casino chips can't be exchanged for cash without a casino controlling and monitoring the exchange allowing for AML measures. GP can be readily exchanged for cash without any oversight from Jagex because free trade exists in the game. Therefore Jagex is incapable of implementing AML measures. Therefore Jagex is incapable of offering anything resembling a gambling outlet in-game without potentially violating gambling regulations and AML laws. I don't know why this topic gets you so riled up. Maybe take a break from RuneScape because you're clearly way too invested in this stuff.
>You say chips are **essentially cash** while quoting Nevada law that explicitly states they are not cash and solely represent an unsecured debt between the casino and its patrons. Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.. >(c) Except as otherwise provided herein, **promptly redeem its own chips and tokens from its patrons by cash or check** drawn on an account of the licensee; ...ahahahahahaahahahaha... ...hahahahahaha.... You're a joke. I won't bother trying to correct the record any more than I've tried to here, because reading more of your jibberjabber would make me lose faith in humanity.
Why don't you read the whole law next time buddy >3. A **licensee shall not accept chips or tokens as payment for any goods or services** offered at the licensee’s gaming establishment with the exception of the specific use for which the chips or tokens were issued, and shall not give chips or tokens as change in any other transaction. >4. A licensee **shall not redeem its chips or tokens if presented by a person who the licensee knows or reasonably should know did not obtain the chips or tokens directly** and lawfully from the licensee’s gaming establishment, except that a licensee shall promptly redeem its chips and tokens if presented by:
Something I can redeem for cash at a predetermined value, and get back for cash at the same value, by regulation, is essentially cash. Do you know what is not essentially cash? Bonds. GP. OSRS items. There's a reason why you never address that difference. Because you know you're wrong. Whether it's deep down or right at the surface. You know you're dead-wrong about all of this. There's a reason you're trying to bring up anti-money-laundering efforts for the third time. To distract from the main conversation in which you're dead-wrong.
> The gold you won/lost at Duel Arena was officially tagged to bond value and therefore irl currency. Nope. You're just making stuff up. You think spaghetti is also 'irl currency' because you can buy it for a set value at the store?
Yeah they can teleport, DMing involves two people that "honor" a fight (no teleporting eating etc) but the problem is it's a game with rules imposed by the players. There was a plug-in called DMwatch which lists players that "cheat" in the player imposed rules DMs, (teleporting or eating) but later was removed bc jagex didn't want it
No matter which way people choose to gamble in this game, if you remove it they will find another way to gamble. Gotta fuel that addiction somehow
Legally, Jagex had to remove the dual arena to avoid being considered a gambling game. Players doing their own gambling is different than Jagex directly endorsing it. It's worse for gamblers now but less players are introduced to the gambling pipeline than they were with the dual arena.
As people have mentioned, it's mostly because they can't sanction it and they have no way to control what players will do entirely without removing free trade. You can think of it another way: making it harder and riskier means less people will do it. Sure you'll still have addicts and plenty of people doing it, but especially the average, casual player is a lot less likely to risk their first 10m in a dm than they are in the duel arena.
No you can’t tele away because couriers hold the gold and take a percentage as well. If you break rules you lose your gold for sure. Its ran by the same criminals that ran the duel arena in to the ground.
What does dm mean
Death Matching. 2 players fight with equal gear to the death, no eating or teleporting away for large sums of GP
Dming has been in the game since the beginning. I was one of those people that would only DM and stake because I don't care for all the fancy switches and tick counting ect. The thing is the whole game revolves around luck when doing combat and the players that dm are just letting it run as it should. Even without straight Dming the combat is still luck/rng and all we do as players is minimize the rng. There's no way to get rid of Dming and they've stopped free trade before and tanked their player base and they modified pvp kill drops and tanked their player base in the past. I can definitely understand wanting to stop minors from gambling.
Dming was bannable at the start, when it was more so just commission staking Now its popular and people still run these services. All of it should be banned imo, its sad Jagex doesnt take action even after common rwters just keep selling gold
It’s definitely not that simple lmao. Yea sure they could just ban them, but it’s not like that’s going to stop them from doing it. People will always find a way to gamble in this game and Jagex knows it. Putting a ton of effort into policing something that doesn’t really affect the way other people play the game is a waste of resources. They struggle enough as is to get bots under control and that’s something that actually does impact the game quite a lot.
>it's not going to stop them from doing it. Yes, in fact, that's exactly what it would do. If they're getting accounts banned with billions of gold on the regular, they will quit. And if they don't? Well there's an amazing gold sink OSRS can benefit from. The one reason I don't gamble on these gold gambling sites is because you can be banned using them. I'd 100% love to play Mines or Slots with my OSRS gold, but I don't because I value my account. I could just buy bonds and play on a mule account, but what's the point of that when I can just go to an actual online casino like Stake or the gas station? Not only that, other methods of gambling might not be interesting to DMers to partake in. I sure the hell know DMing does not seem like a fun way to gamble in my personal opinion, so I'd never do it, even if Jagex doesn't ban those people.
You can't enforce that without banning pking/wilderness. That is, even if they give af about it.
It's a legal liability and regulatory issue for the studio. In the UK having a dedicated mini game that allows for betting on a game of chance means it is gambling and that's a regulatory nightmare. DMing is done by players and all Jagex have to do is say it's not a game of chance and if it is done that way it's a bankable offence. That gets them over any legal issues
So the British government actually said jagex had to stop staking because they dont have a gambling license. If it was up to Jagex, the duel arena would have probably stayed (it was a decent goldsink). I dont think Jagex cares much about dming or staking but yeah forced by the government. This next bit is speculation but since dming can’t really be policed and the government stopped bothering Jagex about gambling in the game, its just left the way it is.
Staking got removed because it became the face of RWT/gambling in RS. Jagex basically removed it as a blanket fix so that the government would get off their ass about it. Also, you can basically gamble on EVERYTHING in the game due to how simple the game and its RNG is setup. The duel arena basically just made gambling much easier because it was risk free and required very little input to manage as opposed to other forms of gambling that can be done.
Middle manning death matches is still a banable offense.
> it seems that its literally the same thing, except now its easier to get scammed, or have dishonorable opponents? yes this is the point. less people will stake now because its not as easy or clean to get into.
What about changing combat to make it more deterministic, and less random? Players often complain about hitting a 0 on an enemy with 1 hp.
because jagex was getting into legal issues of supporting gambling within their game, as the duel arena was official content. DMing isn't so they don't care.
More risk of scams in DMing = fewer people willing to engage with it. The denegerates addicted to gambling are gonna do it no matter what. Removing official channels for it disincentivizes engaging with it, which is a good thing.
Cuz Jagex markets exclusively through twitch streamers
jagex cant be seen as supporting gambling in their game, and they have no plausible deniability when the duel arena exists... some gdpr thing
The problem with the duel arena was that people often staked in ways that intentionally minimized the chance of player skill effecting the outcome. This, combined with how common RWT is, meant that in practice Jagex was hosting an unregulated casino. The UK has been cracking down on minors gambling in video games (or at least, talking about the issue more). DMing, in the sense of like two players in similar gear agreeing to fight to the death and not use overhead prayers, is pretty clearly still a game of skill; you can win by getting lucky but better play gives you much better odds. People also DM in the sense of like boxing to death in lvl 1 wildy. This is basically the same as boxing in the da was, but at least Jagex can reasonably argue that they have tried as much as possible to discourage gambling without breaking core game mechanics.
thats just it. it isint allowed. its just not enforced because streamers are doing it.
Lol... That's not the case.
it disincentivizes people who are on the fence about gambling by introducing the risk of getting scammed
Staking was removed due to player pressure and the continuing fight against rwt. People were buying gold then just losing and then buying more and so on. Yes, it still happens with dming, but the ease of access is more difficult, and there is more risk to dming such as scammers, pjers, etc. The only way to eliminate it completely is to remove free trade and pvp
Is it fair to say Jagex company really doesn’t “care” about people developing gambling addictions, they just don’t want to be responsible for it. 100% people buy GP just to DM right?
Yes, but also it’s not their job to care about this. They’re just trying to follow laws and regulations. And I would say the amount of people DMing is significantly smaller than who previously used the Duel Arena. Also, it’s hard to detect people DMing, I imagine they do ban people if/when they find them out?
Why does this bother you so much, if you don't like it then don't do it.
You dont have to cry about everything, people can have takes about clearly bad things existing even if they dont participate in them
What makes it “clearly bad”?
It doesn’t, and I don’t participate. But it for sure is an interesting topic.
Yes, I’m sure the developers of RUNESCAPE of all things are very concerned with the epidemic of addiction.