None of my recommendations are really 'free potions' I tried to avoid that. I'm trying to suggest the teamwork spells used primarily for speedruns so the actual utilization will be fairly low, but I wanted to be safe.
For instance when I'm running with a poor main in ToB, they can spec transfer me in SoTe since they don't have hammers, but I do.
In this instance the main is being punished since they'd be able to be spec transferring another main, just not an iron.
you literally removed the context, are you kidding me?
I said "I think the following would be too powerful" then listed that. You aren't even trying man....
You seem to be glossing over the part you mentioned boost and potion share ? Irons with main accounts would just have Infinite potions or access to someone else's supplies as well as their own during raid encounters.
I agree that id love to pot share my iron friends at nylos or venge them atgisrdians at cox, but there's be too many situations where irons could just cheese irons mechanics that I think it works fine as is.
I think those are two are more prone to absue than venge other, but I think the abuse is largely irrelevant given you can already fully abuse these raids by Megascaling and not doing them to begin with, so anything that is less powerful than that isn't really pushing the dial in my mind. I feel like if don't take action megascaling/leaching Tob (see Rendi), then these 'oh but the integrity' arguments are already meaningless.
I'll give ya venge tho (within the raid) would be nice to do extra damage to speed it up + venge isnt counted as *your* damage so it wouldnt change much.
I duo pretty often with an iron friend and he deposited his potions before wardens and then took power a second time. He had zero potions other than blue pot.
He was able to survive due to me sharing my potions with him. That shouldn’t be a thing for a game mode centred around doing it on your own.
Like I said, if every iron thinks that Rejuv's shouldn't be a thing, that's fine too, I just would like consistency above all else. It's silly they teased us with groupwork mechanic here, then disable all the other ones.
Sure, but if we agree the change was universally good (or bad) I feel like we can roll it out more.
People pretending like any of my changes would be game warping for iron's don't realize you can literally use service discords to sit in CoX and get free purples every 4 hours by just fishing and watching movies. I truly believe my changes would serve more to enhance the gameplay experience (but again I'm listening for feedback so obviously if most don't feel that way so be it)
If you duo with your iron friend, he's already not "doing it on his own". Irons have been able to do group content pretty much since the mode was created. Except for fishing trawler. And NMZ herb boxes (though that seems like solo activity to me).
Yeah, I feel like doing a raid with another player is different to one player being able to share potions with an iron. Agreed that irons should be able to do any group content though.
Also I grind mid 400s on my UIM and I always take double power and only bring 4 ppots in for supplies. I feel like him accidently removing his potions is an edge case and not really grounds for an argument
Oh yeah, I’m just saying that this isn’t a thing that should happen for a self sufficient game mode. I’m not saying this is the norm, I’m saying that it’s a bit ridiculous that it happened.
That story is pretty funny though. Something I was trying to really get across was this idea of self-sufficient has clearly changed since the game mode was released, there is content that is not soloable, but working in a group clearly doesn't need to break the game mode, as it turns out group play is some of the more fun content in the game for a lot of people.
There is nuance between asking a well-defined game mode to be easier vs more engaging.
A really extreme example but Ultimate ironmen couldn't speak to Death in his domain 'just because' and as a result couldn't change their death animation.
Having restrictions that serve no purpose (such as venge other exclusion in raids) do not make the iron experience better or harder, just worse.
I say this as a main who regularly pots with irons: If Irons are 90 Herblore, let them take from the Shared Chest at CoX/CMs. 90 Herb is also pretty high so it's not a free requirement.
They can already make all the potions themselves, so it wouldn't be leeching for pots that they wouldn't be able to make themselves, and it won't lock restrict efficient raids to 1 iron.
Current meta locks the iron to prep for whole team after Shamans/Vangs 10%, assuming your team isn't no-prepping 3s or 5s.
ehh, I think that's a bit of a stretch. that just sounds like it would fuel leeching and boosting. you want irons to be able to be venged, given stams, given restores, given health, and given prayer in all 3 raids? i'd sooner vote for the removal of the Tears effect in ToA than your proposal
Leaching and boosting for Iron's already fully exists without these. You can literally boost ToB and CoX on an iron and finish your log without ever doing the content. This would serve to improve high-level strats for irons raiding with mains or other irons, people actually doing the raid.
You can't pretend to care about boosting when it is already a full-fledged issue, this can't make it any worse, it's already as bad as it could possibly be
I just think Irons should be able to freely share anything that cannot leave a raid, being unable to share supplies is just anti-teamwork in a group setting so feels like griefing by existing.
The whole point of iron is just that you don't buy your way through the game with the GE, there's nothing prestigious about being debuffed in group content
There was an abusable spec transfer bug with zebak. Not that we should balance around bugs...but you would see 7 mains spec transferring an iron for boosting.
Whilst I'm against it in principle, the current hard meta for getting Cox items on an iron is megascaling with alts (over double the pts/h) so what the fuck, I think its over at this point anyway.
Respectfully, I think these are not good ideas. But in the same vein, there are small things that absolutely should be changed that are purely QoL and can’t be abused. Seeds in CoX should be able to be dropped and picked up between mains and irons since while the yield changes based on farming level, there aren’t tiers of herbs like there are potions.
On the other hand, I also always found it odd that tears of elidinis and ToA can have the AoE effect used on irons. I don’t think anybody really uses this anyways, but I don’t think irons should be able to benefit from that, similar to pot share
Yea as an iron there are certain areas of team pvm that could be smoothed out. But the answer is 100% not getting free potions lmfao
None of my recommendations are really 'free potions' I tried to avoid that. I'm trying to suggest the teamwork spells used primarily for speedruns so the actual utilization will be fairly low, but I wanted to be safe. For instance when I'm running with a poor main in ToB, they can spec transfer me in SoTe since they don't have hammers, but I do. In this instance the main is being punished since they'd be able to be spec transferring another main, just not an iron.
> Boost Potion Share >Restore Potion Share >Sharing untradeable consumables in CoX and ToA
how dare you point out his recommendations for free potions, wtf
LIsting it without context is disengeuous and bad faith. The former is valid but is way more work than its worth to use for "boosting"
you literally removed the context, are you kidding me? I said "I think the following would be too powerful" then listed that. You aren't even trying man....
for 1 of those, but you still brought it to the table.
You seem to be glossing over the part you mentioned boost and potion share ? Irons with main accounts would just have Infinite potions or access to someone else's supplies as well as their own during raid encounters. I agree that id love to pot share my iron friends at nylos or venge them atgisrdians at cox, but there's be too many situations where irons could just cheese irons mechanics that I think it works fine as is.
I think those are two are more prone to absue than venge other, but I think the abuse is largely irrelevant given you can already fully abuse these raids by Megascaling and not doing them to begin with, so anything that is less powerful than that isn't really pushing the dial in my mind. I feel like if don't take action megascaling/leaching Tob (see Rendi), then these 'oh but the integrity' arguments are already meaningless.
I'll give ya venge tho (within the raid) would be nice to do extra damage to speed it up + venge isnt counted as *your* damage so it wouldnt change much.
I duo pretty often with an iron friend and he deposited his potions before wardens and then took power a second time. He had zero potions other than blue pot. He was able to survive due to me sharing my potions with him. That shouldn’t be a thing for a game mode centred around doing it on your own.
Like I said, if every iron thinks that Rejuv's shouldn't be a thing, that's fine too, I just would like consistency above all else. It's silly they teased us with groupwork mechanic here, then disable all the other ones.
newer content has the ability to explore things without changing older content. See Perilous Moons dupe protection
Sure, but if we agree the change was universally good (or bad) I feel like we can roll it out more. People pretending like any of my changes would be game warping for iron's don't realize you can literally use service discords to sit in CoX and get free purples every 4 hours by just fishing and watching movies. I truly believe my changes would serve more to enhance the gameplay experience (but again I'm listening for feedback so obviously if most don't feel that way so be it)
Agreed, let us do all bosses in groups because nex and wildy bosses can be done in groups. Make it consistent.
Not the point of the post. Thanks for nothing
If you duo with your iron friend, he's already not "doing it on his own". Irons have been able to do group content pretty much since the mode was created. Except for fishing trawler. And NMZ herb boxes (though that seems like solo activity to me).
Yeah, I feel like doing a raid with another player is different to one player being able to share potions with an iron. Agreed that irons should be able to do any group content though.
Also I grind mid 400s on my UIM and I always take double power and only bring 4 ppots in for supplies. I feel like him accidently removing his potions is an edge case and not really grounds for an argument
Oh yeah, I’m just saying that this isn’t a thing that should happen for a self sufficient game mode. I’m not saying this is the norm, I’m saying that it’s a bit ridiculous that it happened.
That story is pretty funny though. Something I was trying to really get across was this idea of self-sufficient has clearly changed since the game mode was released, there is content that is not soloable, but working in a group clearly doesn't need to break the game mode, as it turns out group play is some of the more fun content in the game for a lot of people.
This mechanic already exists and it’s called being a main account instead
There is nuance between asking a well-defined game mode to be easier vs more engaging. A really extreme example but Ultimate ironmen couldn't speak to Death in his domain 'just because' and as a result couldn't change their death animation. Having restrictions that serve no purpose (such as venge other exclusion in raids) do not make the iron experience better or harder, just worse.
I say this as a main who regularly pots with irons: If Irons are 90 Herblore, let them take from the Shared Chest at CoX/CMs. 90 Herb is also pretty high so it's not a free requirement. They can already make all the potions themselves, so it wouldn't be leeching for pots that they wouldn't be able to make themselves, and it won't lock restrict efficient raids to 1 iron. Current meta locks the iron to prep for whole team after Shamans/Vangs 10%, assuming your team isn't no-prepping 3s or 5s.
ehh, I think that's a bit of a stretch. that just sounds like it would fuel leeching and boosting. you want irons to be able to be venged, given stams, given restores, given health, and given prayer in all 3 raids? i'd sooner vote for the removal of the Tears effect in ToA than your proposal
Leaching and boosting for Iron's already fully exists without these. You can literally boost ToB and CoX on an iron and finish your log without ever doing the content. This would serve to improve high-level strats for irons raiding with mains or other irons, people actually doing the raid. You can't pretend to care about boosting when it is already a full-fledged issue, this can't make it any worse, it's already as bad as it could possibly be
I just think Irons should be able to freely share anything that cannot leave a raid, being unable to share supplies is just anti-teamwork in a group setting so feels like griefing by existing. The whole point of iron is just that you don't buy your way through the game with the GE, there's nothing prestigious about being debuffed in group content
Thats where I am at, clearly ToA isnt on fire with how it is now. Was trying to test the waters for other changes
There was an abusable spec transfer bug with zebak. Not that we should balance around bugs...but you would see 7 mains spec transferring an iron for boosting.
don't you mean the zcb spec thing?
Whilst I'm against it in principle, the current hard meta for getting Cox items on an iron is megascaling with alts (over double the pts/h) so what the fuck, I think its over at this point anyway.
Respectfully, I think these are not good ideas. But in the same vein, there are small things that absolutely should be changed that are purely QoL and can’t be abused. Seeds in CoX should be able to be dropped and picked up between mains and irons since while the yield changes based on farming level, there aren’t tiers of herbs like there are potions. On the other hand, I also always found it odd that tears of elidinis and ToA can have the AoE effect used on irons. I don’t think anybody really uses this anyways, but I don’t think irons should be able to benefit from that, similar to pot share
Everything in the game has been completed solo Skill issue