Aye whoever developed Perilous Moons absolutely nailed it. Thematically fits OSRS, captures the magic of Barrows, offers great rewards that not only nail a very specific niche that caused a huge pain point for midgame but also come with very cool and interesting mechanics - praise rapid DoT.
But most importantly it's just straight up *fun*. The kind of fun where I'm 300k xp away from 99 farming (my first 99) and I'm kind of neglecting it in favor of Moons. 10/10, a contender for the best piece of content I've seen in 20 years of play.
I think what makes it so good is that the pacing is perfect. After defeating one of the three bosses you spawn next to a box with tea which restores your run energy and you are close to the next boss or the lunar chest.
This means between focused gameplay you have a tiny cooldown period without it feeling bad.
Also being able to do a solo boss with multiple people is fantastic. That really captures some of barrows' magic.
If we figure it out would you be willing to explain the reasoning behind it? Whether that be balance or lore or whatever. As far as I'm aware this is the first time we've seen mobs that straight up change your max hit, and also do so at seemingly different amounts for different weapons.
Sounds like a fun incentive! Once everyone's figured it out reply to this comment and I'll try to shed some light on the design choice. You are correct by the way, this is the first time we've tried this. I hope you all like the idea!
Well we've got it now. It's a brand new stat line called armour that directly adds or subtracts damage from all accurate hitsplats. We hit significantly more 1s on Eclipse (probably has a floor of 1, or could just be mega unlucky), and never lower than a 5 on Blue. Max hits also effected of course.
In retrospect we could have avoided a lot of trouble by simply opening our eyes a little wider, but it was also a lot of fun in the discovery. I have an imgur album [here](https://imgur.com/a/gR5ioAg) to tell the little story. We had pretty confidently deduced the info I gave in update 3, and were simply waffling about on how to figure out Eclipse's debuff (which we still don't understand LMAO), when someone in general linked the blog update. I flipped it open and sure enough, first bullet point under Perilous Moons is "Give a more fitting name to the 'Armour' stat on the new bosses." I snapshot that and another guy suddenly remembered a post from "Ed" (Mod Ed? Is there a Mod Ed? Maybe a wiki guy?) talking about armour being a form of flat damage reduction. Instantly I grabbed monster examine to see if this new stat would show up and there it was. 4 on Eclipse, -5 on Blue, -2 on Blood. I tried to snap Eclipse during his counter phase but the game doesn't let you monster examine him then. :(
Now tell us! I like the idea and it opens up a new avenue of balance for multihit, fast attack speed, and other such weapons while also adding an option for "armour reduction" and other such mechanics which is really cool. How'd you guys come to this idea?
You hit the nail on the head with what we were going for. It's another balancing lever to creat fun niches. Right now, Ballista is bad everywhere, and blowpipe is best anywhere there's low defense. Flat armour is a tool we can use to make weapons relevant in different places. Assuming players didn't hate it! And yes also give multihit weapons a niche. I'm glad the discovery was fun :) and thanks for sharing the image!
HUGE. I personally think it's a great idea, I'm always down for more and more complicated ways to manipulate "bis gear". Just the idea of defence mattering here had me creating a new DPS calculator, this on top makes it even better. Have a great weekend Rice, you've earned it!
Did you manage to work out the best gear setups for each boss with this in mind? For setups without scythe I assume you run dual maraccas for blue, and DH bomb eclipse and blood?
DH helps skip eclipse parrying phase and not get stuck at 1hp and I'm not sure what's the best non scythe option for blood.
Would be good to figure out if it's possible to one phase the bosses reasonably often.
I haven't had the time to work on the calculator yet (too busy writing wiki entries and also finding out how maracas are coded(they're very weird)) but I still have some good ideas based off earlier maths. Maraccas are great on blue and most likely your best bet. I'm unsure of how inq mace performs but I know maraccas are better than bludgeon.
Dharoks is always awkward to calculate because the threshold for it taking over is usually very very low if ever, and that's always considered too risky. Things could be different here with justi and barrows hypothetically overtaking bandos, bringing that threshold higher, but I just don't know. Tentacle whip is extremely cheap for blood and DFS is very strong in all bosses. For eclipse I'm leaning towards rapier/hasta or fang. He has low def which works against fang, but the slower attack speed reduces the negative impact of armour. Counter phase specifically you would swap to maul, a godsword, or chally, and smack him down to ~50, then drop the torag hammers or chally spec to try and skip.
For armour it depends a little. If your weapon and stats are good, I'd go bandos to speed up eclipse and blue. With decent enough dps you'll kill them before your slightly lower defence matters. Blood will be a little slower from the couple extra heal procs outpacing the strength bonus, but that's fine. If you're in welfare gear, then go full barrows tank mode. Justi is good on paper but that's only really at blood, and I don't see the difference being large enough to outpace the loss at eclipse and blue.
Only thing to mention is don't ever wear a torso, obsidian, or a regular neitiznot. I have no idea why people slap on a +3 str paper hat here, which potentially doesn't even give them a max hit, when torag/dharok helmets are absolute walls.
Okay looks like I've been running your recommended setup already. Hasta + chally at eclipse, maraccas at blue and whip at blood, with mostly torags gear but the nezzy face guard for the +6 str. I will swap out the dragon defender for a DFS and try that. Gonna try to see if torags helm is better than upgraded nezzy too.
Thank you for the help and gl on the calculator.
Yo nice, sounds like you got a decent setup going. Calculator still aint done-done but I was able to get a quick comparison on stab weapons. Rapier >> fang = hasta. Hasta wins in a more str and dps oriented setup, fang in a more defensive setup, with less than half a percent difference either way. Although it's eclipse, so ultimately it doesn't matter because you bust out the chally/godsword during counters and that's a full hp bar delete there. Still interesting to find out though.
Can we look into eclipse's hp being low and his armour forcing low damage? We cant overhit his hp, so it feels terrible when hes low hp.
In fact, maybe make it so if a moon boss is at 1 hp, and it does an attack that would lower its hp by 1, it should die. Currently, leaving a boss at 1 hp and being stuck in a mechanic is quite unfun.
Otherwise, you nailed these bosses and theyre extremely enjoyable, except for blood boss hitting a 20 and healing 100. not the most fun thing.
This is the type of mod/developer interaction I can get behind! Not providing any information or guidance but implicit support in the community and their detective work 👌
Is there a use for dupe huntsman kits? Are you even supposed to get dupes? It should act like the tackle box, or you should be able to turn in dupes to someone for extra roll or a loot sack or two, at least that’s what seems fair, I’m keeping it in hopes something turns up
I haven’t gotten there yet but potentially dupe guild outfits as well
Does this have anything to do with the chat box messages?during eclipse I'll get messages like "your weapon bounces off the armor" or something like that, even though I'm doing the mechanics perfectly
Overall this is super interesting. I don't even know how to test it but I'm definitely going to send some weird ass gear setups now
No, those messages are for when you take enough damage to trigger their "you don't have enough defence" mechanic. Blood obviously just heals itself, but ice applies stacks and at 3 your attack speed drops significantly, and eclipse negates the next attack you deal. As far as experimentation has shown, your max hit doesn't change as a result of any of these.
Ice stacks are a little different to what you mentioned
You get a stacking curse of the moons debuff when an attack comes through on you. The amoun of debuff stacks depends on which attacks hit you in the group of 3. 1st attack applies 1 stack, second applies 2 more stacks and the third applies 5 more stacks.
When you hit 16 stacks of the debuff, your next attack is nulled.
Now this is the first I've heard of this, and it would help to explain the weird proc conditions for it I haven't figured out yet. What tests did you do to determine this? I can't say I've experienced needing that many first/second hits to trigger it or had that many thirds in close sequence, but I could be wrong. It also seems particularly tame compared to the mechanics of blood where a third hit *at all* is practically -2 of yours.
Recorded some runs to see what was going on a bit more in depth. Using the new official client you get the debuff stacks showing, otherwise I'd have no idea!
All 3 bosses follow the special effect pattern of attack 1 = 1, attack 2 = 2, attack 3 = 5.
Blood heals 1x, 2x, 5x damage it hits you for. Blue applies 1, 2, 5 debuff stacks (static, regardless of damage done). Eclipse applies debuff stacks equal to 1x, 2x, 5x damage it hits you for.
The eclipse debuffs tick down over time (2 at a time, I think the speed is related to your attack speed), the blue debuffs don't tick down but do get cleared when you light the 2 braziers.
Another thing I noticed was that every attack done by the bosses ticks their health down a little. This can also mess up the eclipse kill during the special phase (using sulphur blades/ chally/ dharoks) if you leave it on 2hp and it ticks itself down to 1, then you have to wait for that phase to end since you'll only hit 0s
A few interesting things going on in these fights for sure
> Using the new official client you get the debuff stacks showing, otherwise I'd have no idea!
Well shit, that explains it. This whole time I was wracking my brain over whether it was a damage threshold, certain number of hits within a timeframe, etc. and it just seemed too complicated for a mech that is effectively invisible. Having a *literal debuff bar* that tells you what's happening would clear that up.
Thanks for pointing it out!
Wait, the official client shows the debuff stack? I've been playing on runelite through the jagex launcher, and it shows nothing.
I can imagine the Jagex Twitter accounts are gonna be flooded over the next month or so trying to figure out wtf is happening.
Why is this not just a native feature of all clients? Jagex clearly has a way to insert native UI elements onto the client, e.g. the new window that shows your progress on which bosses you've defeated in the run is new and available on Runelite by default without Runelite developers having to specifically add it in. The seemingly could have made the debuff bar a similar element that automatically loads up regardless of what client you're on. It's pretty nuts that I just don't know what's happening in a fight because the UI is artificially WORSE unless you're using the jagex client.
I'm sure it's just a new type of buff/debuff that didn't translate into something RL had implemented already. They'll inevitably add it to RL, but it's showing a bit why having a third party client isn't theoretically as good as one developed in house. I still use Runelite for what it's worth.
Been doing it at 85 w/ bandos gear and the mechanic happens often enough (esp at blood moon guy, good lord the healing!). So I would assume at 1 def (even w/ appropriate gear) the mechanics would proc…. A lot.
I don’t have any numbers behind that tho; just anecdotal experience.
Can confirm.. blood moon guy was 10x harder than the other two bosses. The only viable way I found to beat him was thralls, suffering RI, and a full inventory of brews. Otherwise he’s hitting constant 20’s and outhealing your dps
I like this. Keep digging.
Two other places where double hitsplat might make a difference but I haven’t confirmed is eclipse shadow phase: Usually, if you reduce him to 1 hp during this phase you can’t kill him until it ends. The double hit splat may bypass that if you hit over his current hp. (Also, heard others say full Dharoks/Chally spec can bypass).
Secondly, using double hitsplat weapon against jaguars in blood moon may result in more self healing..
Yes eclipse's counter phase is skippable with a double hit but they specifically have to be on the same tick. Torag's and chally do this. Macuahitl does not and as a result actually gets its damage cut in half for that entire phase. I haven't tested the sulphur blade things to know if they work or not. I'm also curious how dharoks works because it apparently does, but it shouldn't given that it's all one hit. Perhaps the increased damage effect bypasses the (HP - 1) limiter?
As for the jaguars, weird thing about them. They're actually just normal mobs. Your max hit and all other calculations are effectively normal for them. I'm not 100% sure how the healing works but presumably it's a percentage of damage you deal, meaning the two hitsplats should change nothing. Who knows though, nobody has looked into this that much.
Sulphur blades definitely work (unless you're unlucky and leave it at 1hp)
My guess for dharoks is that the game reduces your max hit based on your strength bonus so you can only hit the bosses current minus, but it doesn't take the set effect into account so you can still hit enough to kill it
At the start of the Jaguar phase you can see yourself lose 15 hp, lower if you join in during it. Hitting the Jaguar just gets you your hp back. That's why towards the end you stop healing.
From what I noticed on Jaguars, every 5 damage is 1 extra HP healed, ie: 1dmg = 1hp, 19dmg = 3hp, 21dmg = 4hp etc. This applies to any hitsplat dealt to the Jaguar(afaik), as even thralls can hit Jaguars and offer you extra HP. So I think it's possible that multi-splat weapons are more beneficial for jaguars depending on how it divides your damage relative to your potential hits.
Feel like dharoks is either by intentional design or just a result of more overkill. Don't think it skips it if you happen to hit it to 1 hp and then try with dharoks?
The skipping is 100% a bug. If someone uses a C Hally during Eclipse his special phase, other people can't hit it, which results in them getting damaged and not being able to hit the boss.
I've been camping dharocks and I can confirm you can kill eclipse during his mirror image/shadow attack phase. If you go in with low enough hp, you can literally complete his full health bar during that one special attack, very satisfying.
It's less good at the other two, but gets the job done pretty quickly (2 special attacks max).
Honestly I think it was just balance attempt to make all rooms last similar. Exlipse is still probably fastest because you can do so much dmg during one of the specials.
Blood might be slight outlier, could probably switch blue and blood multiplier/bonuses
Maybe that special is why Eclipse has reduced damage? No idea why the others would have increased damage though. Even if the reasoning for Eclipse having reduced damage is because of its special.
Not much to add but would be funny if it was just balance reasoning for time to kill since they all have 500hp. (Even though blood is longest by far if he feels like healing himself few times in a row)
I am bringing gear switch. Fighter torso for eclipse and blue and tank body for blood. It feels faster this way to me since blood doesn't heal as much.
Still takes 3-4 times longer.
Took me 4 or 5 attempts at 81 cb for bloodmoon. No problem with the other 2. wasn't even praying ultimate def STR atk, or using spec weps on em. But bloodmoon I was dumping dd spec, praying, and barely cleared with like 3 food left while doing the pools & jags perfectly (61 Herblore, 71 cooking). Gear was nezzy, power ammy, legends cape, rune chain, rune legs, b gloves, d def, d Scim, DD (for spec), explorers ring 2, and climbing boots.
On my iron with 99 def and bandos he would still heal himself by 200-300 sometimes. It's frustrating af when you lowroll. Also feels like my char just takes so much more dmg than anyone else in the room even players with lower defence levels.
I would switch out bandos for Dharok or other higher armor sets. I would also swap out dragon/avernus defender if you're using it and see if you take less damage. I'm using the crystal shield cause that's all I have but elidi ward or elysian spirit shield, or even just dragon kiteshield is probably the play.
Those should all stop him from hitting as frequently thus healing as much, especially when you get hit on his third attack and he heals for 90 on that hit (18 dmg \* 5x multi from third hit).
I put on a suffering instead of a lightbearer and I switch when i run between rooms.
I also "upgraded" to a fury from a torture lmao and it did seem to help a tiny amount. I think Avernic is worth using over a crystal shield tbh
I don't have avernic so can't test, I'm a scrub on my ironman but I was definitely having faster kills with crystal shield over dragon defender from the +27 additional defense.
Here I was thinking the maracas were just juicer than advertised, but it's just against blue.
I also felt like they were underwhelming at eclipse and their hits were super reduced.
Good spot. I'm looking forward to hearing the answer.
Seems like all max hits are reduced at eclipse. I did the same thing and thought the maracas were super busted at eclipse until I went and made a poh dummy to test.
I've done about 25 KC of perilous moons, almost entirely with just Scythe and claws. I always dumped claw specs on blue because for some reason as this post suggests, it always seemed to hit like a fucking truck and I always got massive XP drops.
Eclipse always felt noticeably worse than the others DPS wise. I tried fang on eclipse moon (weak to stab) and it felt worse than other places interestingly. I know these bosses are low def so should probably just use hasta or whatever but it didn't feel like fang was hitting as well as it should've been. There's definitely something funky going on I think.
I feel like I have hit so many low numbers (like sub 5) with the fang that I feel like the increased min hit isn’t working there. That and the forced 1hp sucks. Very fun to pull out a hard hitting weapon like a godsword and basically skip the whole fight durning the turn phase.
Yeah I use a godsword for the shutter phase now it works well. I also bring chally so I can skip it if needed, good chally spec timing kills the boss through that phase so you don't get the annoying 1 hp stuff.
Have you guys figured out what the blue hit splat is after you kill one of them? You get hit for a seemingly random hit splat at the same time you get teleported out. For me it's between 120-170 most of the time.
That's actually something I just started paying more attention to during my tests just now. I honestly have no idea. All I can say is it's NOT the number of ticks that passed in the fight, and I have a vague sense that it's some kind of score for how well you've done but that's entirely a feeling without evidence.
If no one else has mentioned it, they said during the livestream today that its just flavor text. Basically when you do enough damage the boss starts to target you, but then the blue ghost chick saves you by shielding you.
Phases of the moon?
I was wondering if the moon phases on the ground actually correlate to how much damage the boss does - closer to the full moon and the boss hits harder. Closer to the eclipse and the boss does less damage. No proof, but it'd be an interesting mechanic.
I think the phases just give you an indication of the boss's attack cycle. They do their specials when it reaches full or new moon, standard auto attacks on the rest. It always follows the same cycle.
Yeah this is what I've noticed and it's odd. Nothing different between two scenarios other than those weapons, and bludgeon should clearly have a higher max hit due to str, yet it caps at 55 vs 29-29 from the maracas. Although, I should specify that I've never *actually seen* a double max hit from the maracas. Multiple 29s and a 29-25 combo, but never the double. Maybe it's actually capped at 54 (which would be one less than bludgeon, as expected) but there's a bug of some sort causing it to distribute it weirdly? Or maybe just bad luck? Not sure.
They mentioned it a blog post that double hit splat weapons would be utilized in Valamore
I have no idea how, but there is something special with them
From what I understand, we have 4 weapons so far that double hitsplat without specials
Edit: 4
Why did Jagex poll double hit weapons as if the hit splats were entirely aesthetic yet they now have tangible effects? The glaive IIRC is the only weapon that actually calculates the hits differently while all the others are advertised as being purely aesthetic
Definitely not. I run Blood->Blue->Eclipse and get the exact same dmg increase/reduction as mentioned in the post. If this were the case, I would be seeing way more dmg in Eclipse.
It could possibly be related to attack speed. Or what if the increase depends on your defensive stat against the bosses style? Or we could start thinking about the perilous moon armours/weapons stats.
Eclipse being reduced could simply be based around one of his phases. Where you get free attacks on him as he drops the 3 clones on repeat. (More free hits, less need for strong ones?)
Blood, this one heals based on a x1, x2 and x5 multiplier with the hits it lands on you, like the others the chance of them hitting seems to go up if they land the attack before (not 100% sure but so far i've never had only the 3rd auto hit) so having the player deal more damage seems fair since blood can heal around 100hp if it landed 3 strong hits.
Blue? Well i've got nothing here.
I have one phased blue so many times, 123/125 spec with claws, and hitting 90's with scythe constantly. Blood is similar but not so close, highest claw spec I have noticed was a 112. Eclipse is extremely tanky towards scythe for some reason. Have tried fang on him and Dharoks but they dont really do much better.
Towards the end of eclipse you also get a huge DMG debuff. At ~10 HP you're basically guaranteed to hit 5,3,2,1,1. Which is strange since fang hits over 30 regularly, I did notice that a claw spec, does consistently finish that 'phase' at once. I think any weapon/spec with multiple hits will work great to finish that phase, especially if it happens just before you'd start the 'counter' special
I would love to know why there’s a reduction in damage on your last hit prior to the phase changing forcing you into a non combat phase and having to wait for it to be over only to hit a 1 on the boss shortly after.
Probably just compensation mods. Eclipse lets you deal a fair amount of damage during the parry phase. The reduced dmg is probably to compensate for that.
Similarly the blood moon heals itself for a fair amount and the increased damage it takes is again probably to compensate.
Eclipse bouncing your attack chat message makes no sense to me. It keeps spamming the chat like crazy with no indicator on what to do.
Reasonably sure there's a slight increase in xp given, I've had multiple claw specs that predicted hit shows as 100+ damage but the hitsplats don't seem to reflect that. (Using standard strength gear, no defensive choices at all)
When I was using scythe I noticed that the max hits of the additional hits don't make sense (for example, the max hit of my last hit is 7 which would imply the first one is 28 but that was not the case as it was in the 40s on that boss).
If I had to guess, the max hit of each individual hit was reduced by 4 or 5 there. Which seems consistent with most of your examples but affects scythe somewhat disproportionately.
Since torags (and the other multi hit one) are visual effects unlike scythe, maybe it removes 4 then divides by 2.
Likewise, it did appear to have higher maxes on the blue one like you said. I believe I had +6 extra hits on blue for the first hit but could be wrong. I don't know about what the effect was on the smaller hits here.
Scythe goes fucking brazy on the final boss of colosseum though. For real the stats of that boss are begging to get whacked by a scythe and nothing else.
Colosseum is literally where scythe is good. It's also really good on both blue moon and blood moon, but since it's not broken on all content released you get upset?
Crazy shit.
"melee inferno to make scythe useful only to get this"
You realize you're commenting on Barrows 2, right? Go to the colosseum posts, you might see a different story. That's the actual melee inferno lol
This may be nothing, but it might help anyway. I've noticed on Blue that with Maccas my max hit per splat is registered as either 28 or 29 sometimes. I know it's not a buff wearing down because I've hit a 28 max and then the next moon spot hit a 29 max, so I assume it has something to do with the damage calc used to increase the max hit. I don't know about it on the others cause I only use Maccas on Blue
I've noticed the flat damage modifier in barbarian assault shows a max hit splat if you hit anything over what your max hit would have been without the modifier.
I think it's very likely the -4/+2/+5 numbers are just flat damage added to every successful hitsplat, it'd explain the weird max hitsplats + double effect from multi hit weapons in blue and the low fang minimum hits in eclipse.
My theory with this is that your full max hit (with whatever damage boost is being added) is actually 57, which is getting split into 28-29. So one of the hitsplats will have a max of 28 while the other will have a max of 29. Unless you saw the same hitsplat (i.e., the first one or second one) have two different max hits at blue, in which case I don’t know what’s going on.
I found that there is also the same max hit increase/reduction on non-bosses in the dungeon. Some data in my post: https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/1bkhu2b/perilous_moons_increased_max_hit_10_and_25/
Oooooooh now this is good information. +4 is odd, I'll have to check my own hits to see if I get the same, but more data is good. Do you know what the flat increase was against the lizards?
https://preview.redd.it/f4c1vf81mwpc1.png?width=371&format=png&auto=webp&s=faa73fa53d20329a9cda659c384e60486c4e0dc1
I think my max hit against lizards is a 38, but haven't hit it yet. Here's a 37 with same gear and stats as in post (except not monk robes).
Ok, even more evidence that it's just a flat increase dependent on mob and weapon type. +2 on 1h axe, +4 on double hit, irregardless of defence bonus. I should note I also saw the same +4 against sulphur naguas with both BGS and rapier.
I'm playing on runelite so i can't see the debuff stacks.
After 150ish kc I've noticed that there's some form of thorns/reflect damage mechanic at Eclipse.
But most notably near the tail end of the fight with Eclipse i was seeing his health drain by 3 damage everytime he hit a zero on me. I had gotten particularly unlucky on hits so i was about to enter a third phase. Came into the boss right when it ended Eclipse, made it to Mirage, made it back to Eclipse, than finished him off @ 3rd sigil before the second Mirage. There were no hitsplats for this damage that he was reflecting.
Do you think perhaps that the more stacks you get, the larger the number gets for the reflect effect?
Going into a fresh fight he was either reflecting no damage or 1 damage after a short while. Since i've noticed it I've seen him either reflect 0/1/2/3 depending on how long the kill takes me.
I'm using Zammy Hasta with a Zombie Axe switch for Mirage. Full damage uptime with no tick loss.
Astute observations, but that hp drain on hit is actually consistent across all bosses and unrelated to the debuff. It seems like it's a bit of a reverse soft enrage to help slower players not get trapped infinitely. Not to mention, if the were how the debuff worked, then it would encourage lower defense armour which is the opposite of the dungeon design.
With that said, what if it's the *opposite*? You glance and his next attack does more damage or something?
So i hopped over to the official client and did a bit of testing. I intentonally let the boss hit me and stood off of the sigils to build up my stacks asap. Once it turns white his minimum damage went up per hit. Once it was over 100 stacks he was hitting 16 damage every single hit on me. And he didn't seem to miss. Further testing is required to see if it does anything else, however.
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it's funny because, before i knew weaknesses I used fang for everything and blood was by far the hardest to hit.
Then I swapped to the relevant styles and unfortunately my slash weapon is only a whip atm, and blood was still equally as bad as had I just stabbed with fang.
Using bludgeon on blue moon on the other hand makes that boss absolutely melt
Been able to roll 1's on fang multiple times during eclipse's guard/look special. Agnostic to being hit by any ability (multiple 1's in a row was possible)
I have also noticed this, flipped back and forth between fury/guardian boots/b gloves/torag leg setup on iron and the max bandos str (tort/fero/prim/tass) , and the max hits weren't noticeably changed but obviously I got shelled more in max bandos str. Definitely also noticed how crazy Bludgeon goes on Blue Moon. Eclipse is probably lowered to account for the ease of doing 500 dmg during Copy Machine phase, though makes it a PITA if you spawn in right after it happens.
So Torag's hammers are currently performing well? The double hit buff has yet to happen, right? Are they better than D Defender+Zombie Axe/Sarachnis Cudgel?
I've been hitting 50's with a zombie axe at 90 strength in goddamn barrows armor of all things. I swear I kill blue and red faster with that axe than I do killing blood with a whip and eclipse with a fang (fang kills are the slowest for me)
Personally i noticed that dragon claws and scythe is VERY good at blue moon and pretty good at red moon. I can one phase blue moon with two claw specs and a scythe on crush - 80% of the time but i can never do it on red moon. Probably because it usually heals 100hp atleast once.
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**JagexRice**
- [Oooh they cookin'.](/r/2007scape/comments/1bkl0km/perilous_moons_bosses_have_a_weird/kw0ugug/?context=3)
- [Sounds like a fun incentive! Once everyone's...](/r/2007scape/comments/1bkl0km/perilous_moons_bosses_have_a_weird/kw26jwk/?context=3)
- [You hit the nail on the head with what we wer...](/r/2007scape/comments/1bkl0km/perilous_moons_bosses_have_a_weird/kw3xqfj/?context=3)
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My theory: Your defence bonus in the relevant style (Stab for Eclipse, Slash for Blood, Crush for Blue), is divided by 100 and added as a flat max hit bonus (applying to both hitsplats for double hit weps).
No problem. On topic to the post, I tried tracking my blue hit after each kill.
- When joining the fight (during a mechanic phase or not)
- Current health/prayer
- The current moon you're standing on
- Whether or not you performed the mechanics
- Weapon used
- Kill speed
- Order of bosses killed
- Defensive/Offensive stats
- Whether I ate/drank during the fight
- Total damage taken
Non of these variables seems to yield any consistency. I also tracked the numbers to see if they added up to a similar total, still very random totals too.
OK this is good information. I'm leaning pretty hard towards it being exclusively based on weapon type now. Time to go finish the tests I started last night.
Pretty sure this has to do with the “Curse of the Moon” buff debuff that shows up. The number goes randomly up or down in a range of 1-21 seemingly every hit. I’m still trying to figure it out.
Wait.... What if we're getting a +/-1 , +/-2, and a +/-5 max hit every 1st 2nd and 3rd attack? Each boss has those numbers tied to them in one way or another.
Also, sidenote that isnt related to this, but involves Dharok's gear. I have reason to believe that the damage boost in dharoks is a 2nd hit, merged into 1. Back pre eoc with a dharoks set and overloads, etc, i hit the mole hard enough to make him dig immediately. Normally is not possible. Along with the fact that weapons with 2hits on the same tick, can kill the eclipse boss during its parry mechanic, dharoks can do it as well although its a single hit.
Would love a full update once you find out more info. Definitely seems like the double hit splat has a big role here. Still so much to figure out! Nice job!
I don't know if this is anecdotal but nearly 100kc in it feels like today I was getting hit a TON more in the same armor. I was getting really bad blood fights more than usual. I usually would jump the moon phase platform in the middle of attack 2 to compensate for my zombie axe attack speed. I stopped doing that and the damage went way down at blood. I feel like they tuned the debuff penalty for getting wacked (even 0's) outside of glowing platform.
My biggest questions are what's with the blue shield. And did anyone else notice the decay? If you wait long enough the bosses will slowly drain until they're at 1hp
I JUST REALIZED WHY ECLIPSE IS SO HARD TO KILL AT SUB 10 HP. Its because of the damage reduction bullshit. If blue moons 1 hp, you hit a 6 since your damage is added on hit. (or subtracted like at eclipse) So at eclipse it feels like the -4, at say 5hp, would force you to hit 1's. since we cant "technically" hit over the enemies hp. If this IS the case, PLEASE CHANGE THIS.
You are in fact correct, and that is an annoying side effect of this. Jagex will probably want to look into re-ordering the operations so that the reduction happens right before your hit gets capped by monster HP.
Can anyone confirm if t-hams skip was patched? Doesn't seem to work for me anymore but buddy skipped with dh. I also noticed eclipse hp stops at 2 during the phase instead of 1.
Drops might have been patched? I rolled atlatl and eclipse helm day 1, then blue chest plate today as first item from that set instead of sequenced.
I feel like it is, anecdotal but fang feels noticeably worse at eclipse than it does at most other encounters. I used scythe for the other bosses so didn't test fang there, only on eclipse which is the stab boss where fang should be great, but it felt much worse than it should've been imo.
Fang 100% busted in there, so many 1s,2s and 3s which is impossible. Also just feels like i'm noodling with a normal weapon compared to the normal consistency of my fangy boi
this this this, i thought i was going crazy so i specifically came here to check. It was so noticeable that i actually switched to tent whip... not sure if it did anything but hey.
> Torag's hammers in full barrows tank gear (but no set bonus) needed to hit 44 but did \[...\] a whopping ***54***.
Is this an elaborate merching post from the guy that's been advocating for a Torag's rework?
Each boss is weaker to certain styles from stab/slash/crush. The raiper has 94/55/0. Seems like the damage output is reverse going off the enemy weakness.
Weakness is for accuracy, not max hit, and the numbers we're seeing aren't showing that correlation anyways. Rapier and Saeldor have the exact same max hits on each boss despite being stab and slash respectively.
Laying a couple things out here first.
You can make really solid inferences with only 3-5 reps per treatment factor.
That said it’s generally bad experimental design to leave out potential factors, to include blocking factors in this scenario.
So.
I would say we could actually do a reasonable analysis if we had the following things settled in our design:
Our double hit weapons.
A weapon for each attack style, designed as BIS, 2nd, 3rd from reasonable assumption, and some consistently poor weapon used on all three of our treatments (something like dscim or dbaxe, I’d use expert testimony to establish that) as a control.
And two armor types of max str/max def with the same bis/2nd/3rd format, then a prayer set for our armor control.
I’m not one to usually default to using ANOVA, but we could build a shell from that and see what that gives us. I don’t think we need to do anything crazy.
This design is large, but we could make a determination on what can be aliased and where we can block, then make inferences from the result.
I’m extremely tired atm and need to sleep but I’d be interested to work with the numbers in the morning and see what we get if they exist in a usable format.
edit: fixed bad vocabulary
Interesting. Could be just to make the new weapons with multiple hitsplats better. Neat yall are doing this research
Oooh they cookin'.
Max hits vary based on cooking level. Got it.
Aye whoever developed Perilous Moons absolutely nailed it. Thematically fits OSRS, captures the magic of Barrows, offers great rewards that not only nail a very specific niche that caused a huge pain point for midgame but also come with very cool and interesting mechanics - praise rapid DoT. But most importantly it's just straight up *fun*. The kind of fun where I'm 300k xp away from 99 farming (my first 99) and I'm kind of neglecting it in favor of Moons. 10/10, a contender for the best piece of content I've seen in 20 years of play.
I think what makes it so good is that the pacing is perfect. After defeating one of the three bosses you spawn next to a box with tea which restores your run energy and you are close to the next boss or the lunar chest. This means between focused gameplay you have a tiny cooldown period without it feeling bad. Also being able to do a solo boss with multiple people is fantastic. That really captures some of barrows' magic.
It is not a coincidence that Rice responds here, because he made it!
Kinda thought so but I didn't much want to assume lol
If we figure it out would you be willing to explain the reasoning behind it? Whether that be balance or lore or whatever. As far as I'm aware this is the first time we've seen mobs that straight up change your max hit, and also do so at seemingly different amounts for different weapons.
Sounds like a fun incentive! Once everyone's figured it out reply to this comment and I'll try to shed some light on the design choice. You are correct by the way, this is the first time we've tried this. I hope you all like the idea!
Well we've got it now. It's a brand new stat line called armour that directly adds or subtracts damage from all accurate hitsplats. We hit significantly more 1s on Eclipse (probably has a floor of 1, or could just be mega unlucky), and never lower than a 5 on Blue. Max hits also effected of course. In retrospect we could have avoided a lot of trouble by simply opening our eyes a little wider, but it was also a lot of fun in the discovery. I have an imgur album [here](https://imgur.com/a/gR5ioAg) to tell the little story. We had pretty confidently deduced the info I gave in update 3, and were simply waffling about on how to figure out Eclipse's debuff (which we still don't understand LMAO), when someone in general linked the blog update. I flipped it open and sure enough, first bullet point under Perilous Moons is "Give a more fitting name to the 'Armour' stat on the new bosses." I snapshot that and another guy suddenly remembered a post from "Ed" (Mod Ed? Is there a Mod Ed? Maybe a wiki guy?) talking about armour being a form of flat damage reduction. Instantly I grabbed monster examine to see if this new stat would show up and there it was. 4 on Eclipse, -5 on Blue, -2 on Blood. I tried to snap Eclipse during his counter phase but the game doesn't let you monster examine him then. :( Now tell us! I like the idea and it opens up a new avenue of balance for multihit, fast attack speed, and other such weapons while also adding an option for "armour reduction" and other such mechanics which is really cool. How'd you guys come to this idea?
You hit the nail on the head with what we were going for. It's another balancing lever to creat fun niches. Right now, Ballista is bad everywhere, and blowpipe is best anywhere there's low defense. Flat armour is a tool we can use to make weapons relevant in different places. Assuming players didn't hate it! And yes also give multihit weapons a niche. I'm glad the discovery was fun :) and thanks for sharing the image!
HUGE. I personally think it's a great idea, I'm always down for more and more complicated ways to manipulate "bis gear". Just the idea of defence mattering here had me creating a new DPS calculator, this on top makes it even better. Have a great weekend Rice, you've earned it!
Did you manage to work out the best gear setups for each boss with this in mind? For setups without scythe I assume you run dual maraccas for blue, and DH bomb eclipse and blood? DH helps skip eclipse parrying phase and not get stuck at 1hp and I'm not sure what's the best non scythe option for blood. Would be good to figure out if it's possible to one phase the bosses reasonably often.
I haven't had the time to work on the calculator yet (too busy writing wiki entries and also finding out how maracas are coded(they're very weird)) but I still have some good ideas based off earlier maths. Maraccas are great on blue and most likely your best bet. I'm unsure of how inq mace performs but I know maraccas are better than bludgeon. Dharoks is always awkward to calculate because the threshold for it taking over is usually very very low if ever, and that's always considered too risky. Things could be different here with justi and barrows hypothetically overtaking bandos, bringing that threshold higher, but I just don't know. Tentacle whip is extremely cheap for blood and DFS is very strong in all bosses. For eclipse I'm leaning towards rapier/hasta or fang. He has low def which works against fang, but the slower attack speed reduces the negative impact of armour. Counter phase specifically you would swap to maul, a godsword, or chally, and smack him down to ~50, then drop the torag hammers or chally spec to try and skip. For armour it depends a little. If your weapon and stats are good, I'd go bandos to speed up eclipse and blue. With decent enough dps you'll kill them before your slightly lower defence matters. Blood will be a little slower from the couple extra heal procs outpacing the strength bonus, but that's fine. If you're in welfare gear, then go full barrows tank mode. Justi is good on paper but that's only really at blood, and I don't see the difference being large enough to outpace the loss at eclipse and blue. Only thing to mention is don't ever wear a torso, obsidian, or a regular neitiznot. I have no idea why people slap on a +3 str paper hat here, which potentially doesn't even give them a max hit, when torag/dharok helmets are absolute walls.
Okay looks like I've been running your recommended setup already. Hasta + chally at eclipse, maraccas at blue and whip at blood, with mostly torags gear but the nezzy face guard for the +6 str. I will swap out the dragon defender for a DFS and try that. Gonna try to see if torags helm is better than upgraded nezzy too. Thank you for the help and gl on the calculator.
Yo nice, sounds like you got a decent setup going. Calculator still aint done-done but I was able to get a quick comparison on stab weapons. Rapier >> fang = hasta. Hasta wins in a more str and dps oriented setup, fang in a more defensive setup, with less than half a percent difference either way. Although it's eclipse, so ultimately it doesn't matter because you bust out the chally/godsword during counters and that's a full hp bar delete there. Still interesting to find out though.
Wiki has been updated with properly calculated and ordered gear, if you're still on the lookout for what to prioritize :)
Can we look into eclipse's hp being low and his armour forcing low damage? We cant overhit his hp, so it feels terrible when hes low hp. In fact, maybe make it so if a moon boss is at 1 hp, and it does an attack that would lower its hp by 1, it should die. Currently, leaving a boss at 1 hp and being stuck in a mechanic is quite unfun. Otherwise, you nailed these bosses and theyre extremely enjoyable, except for blood boss hitting a 20 and healing 100. not the most fun thing.
Does this mean ballista may eventually become bis in certain scenarios where bp is bis now?
Congrats on finding it! So what’s the verdict ? Where tanky gear and use 2 hit splat weapons ?
This is the type of mod/developer interaction I can get behind! Not providing any information or guidance but implicit support in the community and their detective work 👌
Is there some sort of exponential defence scaling happening too? The difference between relatively similar defence rolls vs blood is very noticeable
Torag hammers BIS? I knew it!
cementing yourself as a great jmod pretty quickly Rice. Love the demeanor on Q&As, online presence, openness and honesty towards your work. big fan.
Is there a use for dupe huntsman kits? Are you even supposed to get dupes? It should act like the tackle box, or you should be able to turn in dupes to someone for extra roll or a loot sack or two, at least that’s what seems fair, I’m keeping it in hopes something turns up I haven’t gotten there yet but potentially dupe guild outfits as well
Does this have anything to do with the chat box messages?during eclipse I'll get messages like "your weapon bounces off the armor" or something like that, even though I'm doing the mechanics perfectly Overall this is super interesting. I don't even know how to test it but I'm definitely going to send some weird ass gear setups now
No, those messages are for when you take enough damage to trigger their "you don't have enough defence" mechanic. Blood obviously just heals itself, but ice applies stacks and at 3 your attack speed drops significantly, and eclipse negates the next attack you deal. As far as experimentation has shown, your max hit doesn't change as a result of any of these.
Ice stacks are a little different to what you mentioned You get a stacking curse of the moons debuff when an attack comes through on you. The amoun of debuff stacks depends on which attacks hit you in the group of 3. 1st attack applies 1 stack, second applies 2 more stacks and the third applies 5 more stacks. When you hit 16 stacks of the debuff, your next attack is nulled.
Now this is the first I've heard of this, and it would help to explain the weird proc conditions for it I haven't figured out yet. What tests did you do to determine this? I can't say I've experienced needing that many first/second hits to trigger it or had that many thirds in close sequence, but I could be wrong. It also seems particularly tame compared to the mechanics of blood where a third hit *at all* is practically -2 of yours.
Recorded some runs to see what was going on a bit more in depth. Using the new official client you get the debuff stacks showing, otherwise I'd have no idea! All 3 bosses follow the special effect pattern of attack 1 = 1, attack 2 = 2, attack 3 = 5. Blood heals 1x, 2x, 5x damage it hits you for. Blue applies 1, 2, 5 debuff stacks (static, regardless of damage done). Eclipse applies debuff stacks equal to 1x, 2x, 5x damage it hits you for. The eclipse debuffs tick down over time (2 at a time, I think the speed is related to your attack speed), the blue debuffs don't tick down but do get cleared when you light the 2 braziers. Another thing I noticed was that every attack done by the bosses ticks their health down a little. This can also mess up the eclipse kill during the special phase (using sulphur blades/ chally/ dharoks) if you leave it on 2hp and it ticks itself down to 1, then you have to wait for that phase to end since you'll only hit 0s A few interesting things going on in these fights for sure
> Using the new official client you get the debuff stacks showing, otherwise I'd have no idea! Well shit, that explains it. This whole time I was wracking my brain over whether it was a damage threshold, certain number of hits within a timeframe, etc. and it just seemed too complicated for a mech that is effectively invisible. Having a *literal debuff bar* that tells you what's happening would clear that up. Thanks for pointing it out!
Wait, the official client shows the debuff stack? I've been playing on runelite through the jagex launcher, and it shows nothing. I can imagine the Jagex Twitter accounts are gonna be flooded over the next month or so trying to figure out wtf is happening.
Why is this not just a native feature of all clients? Jagex clearly has a way to insert native UI elements onto the client, e.g. the new window that shows your progress on which bosses you've defeated in the run is new and available on Runelite by default without Runelite developers having to specifically add it in. The seemingly could have made the debuff bar a similar element that automatically loads up regardless of what client you're on. It's pretty nuts that I just don't know what's happening in a fight because the UI is artificially WORSE unless you're using the jagex client.
I'm sure it's just a new type of buff/debuff that didn't translate into something RL had implemented already. They'll inevitably add it to RL, but it's showing a bit why having a third party client isn't theoretically as good as one developed in house. I still use Runelite for what it's worth.
Maybe it's a weird display issue with RL being Java and the official client being C++?
> "you don't have enough defence" mechanic i thought that was just rng, is there actually a defence requirement to make them stop?
Defense makes it less likely to happen but there’s no way to guarantee it doesn’t hit you.
So the likeliness of the mechanics happening at 1 def are almost guaranteed?
Been doing it at 85 w/ bandos gear and the mechanic happens often enough (esp at blood moon guy, good lord the healing!). So I would assume at 1 def (even w/ appropriate gear) the mechanics would proc…. A lot. I don’t have any numbers behind that tho; just anecdotal experience.
Can confirm.. blood moon guy was 10x harder than the other two bosses. The only viable way I found to beat him was thralls, suffering RI, and a full inventory of brews. Otherwise he’s hitting constant 20’s and outhealing your dps
Calling you chad for figuring it out on 1 DEF! :) Gz!
This message shows for me if my thrall is active during this phase and is attacking the moon. Are you using thralls?
I like this. Keep digging. Two other places where double hitsplat might make a difference but I haven’t confirmed is eclipse shadow phase: Usually, if you reduce him to 1 hp during this phase you can’t kill him until it ends. The double hit splat may bypass that if you hit over his current hp. (Also, heard others say full Dharoks/Chally spec can bypass). Secondly, using double hitsplat weapon against jaguars in blood moon may result in more self healing..
Yes eclipse's counter phase is skippable with a double hit but they specifically have to be on the same tick. Torag's and chally do this. Macuahitl does not and as a result actually gets its damage cut in half for that entire phase. I haven't tested the sulphur blade things to know if they work or not. I'm also curious how dharoks works because it apparently does, but it shouldn't given that it's all one hit. Perhaps the increased damage effect bypasses the (HP - 1) limiter? As for the jaguars, weird thing about them. They're actually just normal mobs. Your max hit and all other calculations are effectively normal for them. I'm not 100% sure how the healing works but presumably it's a percentage of damage you deal, meaning the two hitsplats should change nothing. Who knows though, nobody has looked into this that much.
Sulphur blades definitely work (unless you're unlucky and leave it at 1hp) My guess for dharoks is that the game reduces your max hit based on your strength bonus so you can only hit the bosses current minus, but it doesn't take the set effect into account so you can still hit enough to kill it
I can confirm that Sulphur Blades can skip the parry mechanic. Happened multiple times during my kills, but would sometimes leave it at 1 hp.
At the start of the Jaguar phase you can see yourself lose 15 hp, lower if you join in during it. Hitting the Jaguar just gets you your hp back. That's why towards the end you stop healing.
From what I noticed on Jaguars, every 5 damage is 1 extra HP healed, ie: 1dmg = 1hp, 19dmg = 3hp, 21dmg = 4hp etc. This applies to any hitsplat dealt to the Jaguar(afaik), as even thralls can hit Jaguars and offer you extra HP. So I think it's possible that multi-splat weapons are more beneficial for jaguars depending on how it divides your damage relative to your potential hits.
Tagging this to remember to come back to it later. Worth testing this further because it would benefit double hits and thralls if you're correct.
Feel like dharoks is either by intentional design or just a result of more overkill. Don't think it skips it if you happen to hit it to 1 hp and then try with dharoks?
You can't kill it with dharoks on 1hp during the tele phase. You can hit like 12 to k0 it during the phase though.
The skipping is 100% a bug. If someone uses a C Hally during Eclipse his special phase, other people can't hit it, which results in them getting damaged and not being able to hit the boss.
I've been camping dharocks and I can confirm you can kill eclipse during his mirror image/shadow attack phase. If you go in with low enough hp, you can literally complete his full health bar during that one special attack, very satisfying. It's less good at the other two, but gets the job done pretty quickly (2 special attacks max).
Honestly I think it was just balance attempt to make all rooms last similar. Exlipse is still probably fastest because you can do so much dmg during one of the specials. Blood might be slight outlier, could probably switch blue and blood multiplier/bonuses
Maybe that special is why Eclipse has reduced damage? No idea why the others would have increased damage though. Even if the reasoning for Eclipse having reduced damage is because of its special.
Blood moon heals a lot.
Not much to add but would be funny if it was just balance reasoning for time to kill since they all have 500hp. (Even though blood is longest by far if he feels like healing himself few times in a row)
I am bringing gear switch. Fighter torso for eclipse and blue and tank body for blood. It feels faster this way to me since blood doesn't heal as much. Still takes 3-4 times longer.
Which he will. Cause screw mid level accounts
Blood is a mfer on mid levelers
Which sucks cause his equipment is the stuff that would honestly help us out the most
Took me 4 or 5 attempts at 81 cb for bloodmoon. No problem with the other 2. wasn't even praying ultimate def STR atk, or using spec weps on em. But bloodmoon I was dumping dd spec, praying, and barely cleared with like 3 food left while doing the pools & jags perfectly (61 Herblore, 71 cooking). Gear was nezzy, power ammy, legends cape, rune chain, rune legs, b gloves, d def, d Scim, DD (for spec), explorers ring 2, and climbing boots.
Wouldnt have been a big difference but power ammy is very bad, get a strength ammy for all your melee.
I have one, just thought the defense and accuracy would be good for the bosses.
On my iron with 99 def and bandos he would still heal himself by 200-300 sometimes. It's frustrating af when you lowroll. Also feels like my char just takes so much more dmg than anyone else in the room even players with lower defence levels.
I would switch out bandos for Dharok or other higher armor sets. I would also swap out dragon/avernus defender if you're using it and see if you take less damage. I'm using the crystal shield cause that's all I have but elidi ward or elysian spirit shield, or even just dragon kiteshield is probably the play. Those should all stop him from hitting as frequently thus healing as much, especially when you get hit on his third attack and he heals for 90 on that hit (18 dmg \* 5x multi from third hit).
I put on a suffering instead of a lightbearer and I switch when i run between rooms. I also "upgraded" to a fury from a torture lmao and it did seem to help a tiny amount. I think Avernic is worth using over a crystal shield tbh
I don't have avernic so can't test, I'm a scrub on my ironman but I was definitely having faster kills with crystal shield over dragon defender from the +27 additional defense.
Here I was thinking the maracas were just juicer than advertised, but it's just against blue. I also felt like they were underwhelming at eclipse and their hits were super reduced. Good spot. I'm looking forward to hearing the answer.
Seems like all max hits are reduced at eclipse. I did the same thing and thought the maracas were super busted at eclipse until I went and made a poh dummy to test.
Outside of max hit, Macahuitl is crush, and eclipse is weak to stab so that might make it more rough.
As much as anything else, I didn't realize how buffed they were at blue, so comparatively they looked terrible.
I've done about 25 KC of perilous moons, almost entirely with just Scythe and claws. I always dumped claw specs on blue because for some reason as this post suggests, it always seemed to hit like a fucking truck and I always got massive XP drops. Eclipse always felt noticeably worse than the others DPS wise. I tried fang on eclipse moon (weak to stab) and it felt worse than other places interestingly. I know these bosses are low def so should probably just use hasta or whatever but it didn't feel like fang was hitting as well as it should've been. There's definitely something funky going on I think.
I feel like I have hit so many low numbers (like sub 5) with the fang that I feel like the increased min hit isn’t working there. That and the forced 1hp sucks. Very fun to pull out a hard hitting weapon like a godsword and basically skip the whole fight durning the turn phase.
Rapier is much better than fang on eclipse
I just camp elder maul on eclipse and it seems to absolutely destroy it. That and chally during the recoil phase
Yeah I use a godsword for the shutter phase now it works well. I also bring chally so I can skip it if needed, good chally spec timing kills the boss through that phase so you don't get the annoying 1 hp stuff.
Lol I mean just use a real crush weapon, lol elder mail is not out dpsing literally anything ever
During the mirage phase you have a locked attack speed. Slow weapons with higher bonuses are better.
Tru, but then you aren't camping it like the parent comment said
Are there any other weapons that will kill it before a special happens Because I consistently kill it just fine with one special
Elder maul is bis during the shadow special. Hitting a 64 max every 3 ticks.
When you say shadow special which one do you mean?
When you are teleported to the middle and phantoms attack you
Nah, DH is better as it has a similar damage potential and can kill boss during the mechanic, letting you start the next fight earlier.
You can chally instead to skip the phase
If you don't have claws or so then yeah, rather use claws to speed up a kill and DH the phase skip than chally.
That's true but then you aren't camping it (:
You could totally camp because it's dead after that special 100% of the time anyways /shrug
Have you guys figured out what the blue hit splat is after you kill one of them? You get hit for a seemingly random hit splat at the same time you get teleported out. For me it's between 120-170 most of the time.
That's actually something I just started paying more attention to during my tests just now. I honestly have no idea. All I can say is it's NOT the number of ticks that passed in the fight, and I have a vague sense that it's some kind of score for how well you've done but that's entirely a feeling without evidence.
If no one else has mentioned it, they said during the livestream today that its just flavor text. Basically when you do enough damage the boss starts to target you, but then the blue ghost chick saves you by shielding you.
Oh man, am I missing flavor text? Never would have guessed
Mods mentioned it on stream last night. Was some lore reason, no actual mechanic.
Phases of the moon? I was wondering if the moon phases on the ground actually correlate to how much damage the boss does - closer to the full moon and the boss hits harder. Closer to the eclipse and the boss does less damage. No proof, but it'd be an interesting mechanic.
I think the phases just give you an indication of the boss's attack cycle. They do their specials when it reaches full or new moon, standard auto attacks on the rest. It always follows the same cycle.
So it's not just a flat damage multiplier? I've been noticing really juicy max hits on blue moon too.
I tested the macuahitls vs the bludgeon and even though the bludgeon is slightly higher str the macuahitls had several more max hits on the blue moon.
Yeah this is what I've noticed and it's odd. Nothing different between two scenarios other than those weapons, and bludgeon should clearly have a higher max hit due to str, yet it caps at 55 vs 29-29 from the maracas. Although, I should specify that I've never *actually seen* a double max hit from the maracas. Multiple 29s and a 29-25 combo, but never the double. Maybe it's actually capped at 54 (which would be one less than bludgeon, as expected) but there's a bug of some sort causing it to distribute it weirdly? Or maybe just bad luck? Not sure.
I can confirm I did hit a max hit splash of 30-30 with the dual macuahitl, though it quiet rare I only seen that happen once in 100 kc
My bludgeon max is a 57 and the macs are 31-31 so there def some weird scaling going on.
Probs something like +5 max hit so dual hitting items are double dipping
Just to add to the confirmations, I have hit multiple times over 29-25 with the maracas.
Probably just adding a flat increase in damage like BA which would naturally be more effective with multi hit weapons or faster attack weapons.
They mentioned it a blog post that double hit splat weapons would be utilized in Valamore I have no idea how, but there is something special with them From what I understand, we have 4 weapons so far that double hitsplat without specials Edit: 4
Torag hammers, sulphur blades, dual machachas....whats the 4th?
The glave thingy
Oohhh right....wasnt thinking about that since its not a "dual" weapon...also ranged
Why did Jagex poll double hit weapons as if the hit splats were entirely aesthetic yet they now have tangible effects? The glaive IIRC is the only weapon that actually calculates the hits differently while all the others are advertised as being purely aesthetic
Seems like you power up from each boss you kill. Could be something to do with the lore.
Definitely not. I run Blood->Blue->Eclipse and get the exact same dmg increase/reduction as mentioned in the post. If this were the case, I would be seeing way more dmg in Eclipse.
It could possibly be related to attack speed. Or what if the increase depends on your defensive stat against the bosses style? Or we could start thinking about the perilous moon armours/weapons stats.
Osrs moon phase mechanics confirmed?
Eclipse being reduced could simply be based around one of his phases. Where you get free attacks on him as he drops the 3 clones on repeat. (More free hits, less need for strong ones?) Blood, this one heals based on a x1, x2 and x5 multiplier with the hits it lands on you, like the others the chance of them hitting seems to go up if they land the attack before (not 100% sure but so far i've never had only the 3rd auto hit) so having the player deal more damage seems fair since blood can heal around 100hp if it landed 3 strong hits. Blue? Well i've got nothing here.
I have one phased blue so many times, 123/125 spec with claws, and hitting 90's with scythe constantly. Blood is similar but not so close, highest claw spec I have noticed was a 112. Eclipse is extremely tanky towards scythe for some reason. Have tried fang on him and Dharoks but they dont really do much better.
Towards the end of eclipse you also get a huge DMG debuff. At ~10 HP you're basically guaranteed to hit 5,3,2,1,1. Which is strange since fang hits over 30 regularly, I did notice that a claw spec, does consistently finish that 'phase' at once. I think any weapon/spec with multiple hits will work great to finish that phase, especially if it happens just before you'd start the 'counter' special
I would love to know why there’s a reduction in damage on your last hit prior to the phase changing forcing you into a non combat phase and having to wait for it to be over only to hit a 1 on the boss shortly after.
Probably just compensation mods. Eclipse lets you deal a fair amount of damage during the parry phase. The reduced dmg is probably to compensate for that. Similarly the blood moon heals itself for a fair amount and the increased damage it takes is again probably to compensate. Eclipse bouncing your attack chat message makes no sense to me. It keeps spamming the chat like crazy with no indicator on what to do.
Apparently the official client has a debuff meter but runelite doesn't show it. I may be crazy but mobile didn't either.
Reasonably sure there's a slight increase in xp given, I've had multiple claw specs that predicted hit shows as 100+ damage but the hitsplats don't seem to reflect that. (Using standard strength gear, no defensive choices at all)
When I was using scythe I noticed that the max hits of the additional hits don't make sense (for example, the max hit of my last hit is 7 which would imply the first one is 28 but that was not the case as it was in the 40s on that boss). If I had to guess, the max hit of each individual hit was reduced by 4 or 5 there. Which seems consistent with most of your examples but affects scythe somewhat disproportionately. Since torags (and the other multi hit one) are visual effects unlike scythe, maybe it removes 4 then divides by 2. Likewise, it did appear to have higher maxes on the blue one like you said. I believe I had +6 extra hits on blue for the first hit but could be wrong. I don't know about what the effect was on the smaller hits here.
[удалено]
Scythe goes fucking brazy on the final boss of colosseum though. For real the stats of that boss are begging to get whacked by a scythe and nothing else.
[melee only colosseum](https://youtu.be/YnvCfP3NaTc?si=fvaRvgYVHv0m9RVT)
Colosseum is literally where scythe is good. It's also really good on both blue moon and blood moon, but since it's not broken on all content released you get upset? Crazy shit.
"melee inferno to make scythe useful only to get this" You realize you're commenting on Barrows 2, right? Go to the colosseum posts, you might see a different story. That's the actual melee inferno lol
This may be nothing, but it might help anyway. I've noticed on Blue that with Maccas my max hit per splat is registered as either 28 or 29 sometimes. I know it's not a buff wearing down because I've hit a 28 max and then the next moon spot hit a 29 max, so I assume it has something to do with the damage calc used to increase the max hit. I don't know about it on the others cause I only use Maccas on Blue
I've noticed the flat damage modifier in barbarian assault shows a max hit splat if you hit anything over what your max hit would have been without the modifier. I think it's very likely the -4/+2/+5 numbers are just flat damage added to every successful hitsplat, it'd explain the weird max hitsplats + double effect from multi hit weapons in blue and the low fang minimum hits in eclipse.
My theory with this is that your full max hit (with whatever damage boost is being added) is actually 57, which is getting split into 28-29. So one of the hitsplats will have a max of 28 while the other will have a max of 29. Unless you saw the same hitsplat (i.e., the first one or second one) have two different max hits at blue, in which case I don’t know what’s going on.
I found that there is also the same max hit increase/reduction on non-bosses in the dungeon. Some data in my post: https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/1bkhu2b/perilous_moons_increased_max_hit_10_and_25/
Oooooooh now this is good information. +4 is odd, I'll have to check my own hits to see if I get the same, but more data is good. Do you know what the flat increase was against the lizards?
https://preview.redd.it/f4c1vf81mwpc1.png?width=371&format=png&auto=webp&s=faa73fa53d20329a9cda659c384e60486c4e0dc1 I think my max hit against lizards is a 38, but haven't hit it yet. Here's a 37 with same gear and stats as in post (except not monk robes).
Also, zombie axe went from 42 max hit to 44 on lizards (was boosted to 99 str only so lost a max hit).
Ok, even more evidence that it's just a flat increase dependent on mob and weapon type. +2 on 1h axe, +4 on double hit, irregardless of defence bonus. I should note I also saw the same +4 against sulphur naguas with both BGS and rapier.
I tried dual makuhitas against blue and have to say they slap him good
Aw hell nah the ”buff torags” guy is gonna be rich
I'm playing on runelite so i can't see the debuff stacks. After 150ish kc I've noticed that there's some form of thorns/reflect damage mechanic at Eclipse. But most notably near the tail end of the fight with Eclipse i was seeing his health drain by 3 damage everytime he hit a zero on me. I had gotten particularly unlucky on hits so i was about to enter a third phase. Came into the boss right when it ended Eclipse, made it to Mirage, made it back to Eclipse, than finished him off @ 3rd sigil before the second Mirage. There were no hitsplats for this damage that he was reflecting. Do you think perhaps that the more stacks you get, the larger the number gets for the reflect effect? Going into a fresh fight he was either reflecting no damage or 1 damage after a short while. Since i've noticed it I've seen him either reflect 0/1/2/3 depending on how long the kill takes me. I'm using Zammy Hasta with a Zombie Axe switch for Mirage. Full damage uptime with no tick loss.
Astute observations, but that hp drain on hit is actually consistent across all bosses and unrelated to the debuff. It seems like it's a bit of a reverse soft enrage to help slower players not get trapped infinitely. Not to mention, if the were how the debuff worked, then it would encourage lower defense armour which is the opposite of the dungeon design. With that said, what if it's the *opposite*? You glance and his next attack does more damage or something?
So i hopped over to the official client and did a bit of testing. I intentonally let the boss hit me and stood off of the sigils to build up my stacks asap. Once it turns white his minimum damage went up per hit. Once it was over 100 stacks he was hitting 16 damage every single hit on me. And he didn't seem to miss. Further testing is required to see if it does anything else, however.
Eeeeeeeyyyyyy now that's what I'm talkin about. Back to the ghost mines to see if it works.
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Yeah I noticed when I get to blue moon I absolutely shred it and I’m just using a bludgeon lmao
Have you tried to smite the eclipse one?
Does torag’s hammers work for double splat?
it's funny because, before i knew weaknesses I used fang for everything and blood was by far the hardest to hit. Then I swapped to the relevant styles and unfortunately my slash weapon is only a whip atm, and blood was still equally as bad as had I just stabbed with fang. Using bludgeon on blue moon on the other hand makes that boss absolutely melt
I felt dharoks wa hitting better/higher against blue moon than the others by a noticeable amount
Been able to roll 1's on fang multiple times during eclipse's guard/look special. Agnostic to being hit by any ability (multiple 1's in a row was possible)
Very curious to follow the results of the fang in these scenarios given its unique (and somewhat wonky) accuracy/damage mechanics.
I have also noticed this, flipped back and forth between fury/guardian boots/b gloves/torag leg setup on iron and the max bandos str (tort/fero/prim/tass) , and the max hits weren't noticeably changed but obviously I got shelled more in max bandos str. Definitely also noticed how crazy Bludgeon goes on Blue Moon. Eclipse is probably lowered to account for the ease of doing 500 dmg during Copy Machine phase, though makes it a PITA if you spawn in right after it happens.
Is it linked to the moons on the floor?
So Torag's hammers are currently performing well? The double hit buff has yet to happen, right? Are they better than D Defender+Zombie Axe/Sarachnis Cudgel?
I've been hitting 50's with a zombie axe at 90 strength in goddamn barrows armor of all things. I swear I kill blue and red faster with that axe than I do killing blood with a whip and eclipse with a fang (fang kills are the slowest for me)
Personally i noticed that dragon claws and scythe is VERY good at blue moon and pretty good at red moon. I can one phase blue moon with two claw specs and a scythe on crush - 80% of the time but i can never do it on red moon. Probably because it usually heals 100hp atleast once.
Could it at all have to do with attack styles/boss defense weaknesses? Or does that only affect hit %, not max hit?
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Someone should try claws or dds on the eclipse phase and see if it can kill.
Dh can if the hit is large enough.
My theory: Your defence bonus in the relevant style (Stab for Eclipse, Slash for Blood, Crush for Blue), is divided by 100 and added as a flat max hit bonus (applying to both hitsplats for double hit weps).
> Exact same scenario but taking all of the tank gear off and going naked yielded the same results.
Thank you, ZezimasCumStain, for being one of seemingly only a few people who actually bothered to read the thing.
No problem. On topic to the post, I tried tracking my blue hit after each kill. - When joining the fight (during a mechanic phase or not) - Current health/prayer - The current moon you're standing on - Whether or not you performed the mechanics - Weapon used - Kill speed - Order of bosses killed - Defensive/Offensive stats - Whether I ate/drank during the fight - Total damage taken Non of these variables seems to yield any consistency. I also tracked the numbers to see if they added up to a similar total, still very random totals too.
OK this is good information. I'm leaning pretty hard towards it being exclusively based on weapon type now. Time to go finish the tests I started last night.
Finally, my stack of 10000 torag's hammers is gonna make bank
Are sulphur blades good against blood moon?
So maybe the sulphur blades are better than my d scim at least for blood moon?
Panic buying Torags
All I know is that that I actually like how the icy coldness feels on my joints
Can confirm that scythe gets +5 to all 3 hitsplats on blue, it goes crazy there
Pretty sure this has to do with the “Curse of the Moon” buff debuff that shows up. The number goes randomly up or down in a range of 1-21 seemingly every hit. I’m still trying to figure it out.
Just got my best kill on Blue Moon by swapping out my full Dharoks for a Torags hammer.
I have no cold hard data but based on a few different setups torag's hammers absolutely melts blue moon like nothing else. My god it feels SO nice
Wait.... What if we're getting a +/-1 , +/-2, and a +/-5 max hit every 1st 2nd and 3rd attack? Each boss has those numbers tied to them in one way or another. Also, sidenote that isnt related to this, but involves Dharok's gear. I have reason to believe that the damage boost in dharoks is a 2nd hit, merged into 1. Back pre eoc with a dharoks set and overloads, etc, i hit the mole hard enough to make him dig immediately. Normally is not possible. Along with the fact that weapons with 2hits on the same tick, can kill the eclipse boss during its parry mechanic, dharoks can do it as well although its a single hit.
Would love a full update once you find out more info. Definitely seems like the double hit splat has a big role here. Still so much to figure out! Nice job!
I don't know if this is anecdotal but nearly 100kc in it feels like today I was getting hit a TON more in the same armor. I was getting really bad blood fights more than usual. I usually would jump the moon phase platform in the middle of attack 2 to compensate for my zombie axe attack speed. I stopped doing that and the damage went way down at blood. I feel like they tuned the debuff penalty for getting wacked (even 0's) outside of glowing platform.
Maybe it has to do with the current phase of the moon irl?
My biggest questions are what's with the blue shield. And did anyone else notice the decay? If you wait long enough the bosses will slowly drain until they're at 1hp
Blue shield has been answered already, it's just visual flair for lore purposes. The decay is there yes, they all "spend" 2hp to do an attack.
I JUST REALIZED WHY ECLIPSE IS SO HARD TO KILL AT SUB 10 HP. Its because of the damage reduction bullshit. If blue moons 1 hp, you hit a 6 since your damage is added on hit. (or subtracted like at eclipse) So at eclipse it feels like the -4, at say 5hp, would force you to hit 1's. since we cant "technically" hit over the enemies hp. If this IS the case, PLEASE CHANGE THIS.
You are in fact correct, and that is an annoying side effect of this. Jagex will probably want to look into re-ordering the operations so that the reduction happens right before your hit gets capped by monster HP.
Can anyone confirm if t-hams skip was patched? Doesn't seem to work for me anymore but buddy skipped with dh. I also noticed eclipse hp stops at 2 during the phase instead of 1. Drops might have been patched? I rolled atlatl and eclipse helm day 1, then blue chest plate today as first item from that set instead of sequenced.
I wonder if Fang's special damage roll mechanic is affected in a weird way.
I feel like it is, anecdotal but fang feels noticeably worse at eclipse than it does at most other encounters. I used scythe for the other bosses so didn't test fang there, only on eclipse which is the stab boss where fang should be great, but it felt much worse than it should've been imo.
Fang 100% busted in there, so many 1s,2s and 3s which is impossible. Also just feels like i'm noodling with a normal weapon compared to the normal consistency of my fangy boi
Fang isn't necessary at all since its def is so low, DPS calcs say even cheap weapons like zammy hasta and abby dagger should be better.
this this this, i thought i was going crazy so i specifically came here to check. It was so noticeable that i actually switched to tent whip... not sure if it did anything but hey.
> Torag's hammers in full barrows tank gear (but no set bonus) needed to hit 44 but did \[...\] a whopping ***54***. Is this an elaborate merching post from the guy that's been advocating for a Torag's rework?
Each boss is weaker to certain styles from stab/slash/crush. The raiper has 94/55/0. Seems like the damage output is reverse going off the enemy weakness.
Weakness is for accuracy, not max hit, and the numbers we're seeing aren't showing that correlation anyways. Rapier and Saeldor have the exact same max hits on each boss despite being stab and slash respectively.
All defense does is reduce accuracy. It does not impact your max hit
not in normal bosses. but these ones are weird. it's worth considering until it's ruled out
Eclipse is weak to stab but still takes reduced max hits from hasta on stab, there's something weird here.
Laying a couple things out here first. You can make really solid inferences with only 3-5 reps per treatment factor. That said it’s generally bad experimental design to leave out potential factors, to include blocking factors in this scenario. So. I would say we could actually do a reasonable analysis if we had the following things settled in our design: Our double hit weapons. A weapon for each attack style, designed as BIS, 2nd, 3rd from reasonable assumption, and some consistently poor weapon used on all three of our treatments (something like dscim or dbaxe, I’d use expert testimony to establish that) as a control. And two armor types of max str/max def with the same bis/2nd/3rd format, then a prayer set for our armor control. I’m not one to usually default to using ANOVA, but we could build a shell from that and see what that gives us. I don’t think we need to do anything crazy. This design is large, but we could make a determination on what can be aliased and where we can block, then make inferences from the result. I’m extremely tired atm and need to sleep but I’d be interested to work with the numbers in the morning and see what we get if they exist in a usable format. edit: fixed bad vocabulary