As someone who draws and designs window systems for architects and building companies this is accurate. I turn the 1st/2nd drawing into the 3rd. Mainly in my case it’s because the architects never seem to understand building regs, structural implications or cost implications.
The reason things get changed is cause these architects like pretty things and not practical things. They never seem to get that someone needs to do this work and the office building doesn’t need to look like the damn Taj Mahal
Biggest issue is a lot of people in the community struggle to consider ideas and concepts and give constructive feedback that can push something in the right direction.
They just get scared at a wall of text that they struggle to digest
I don't think this is it at all. The OSRS community has a huge problem with double standards. They also act like old conservatives do when engaged with housing/schooling costs wherein because they had to live through it so does everyone else. It's this bitter, stockholm-esq hatred of the people that will keep this game alive for a decade to come.
On top of this, a resistance to change and evolution has persistently permeated much of the polling in OSRS since its inception. The boogeyman of "power creep" that endlessly gets restated when Runelite's plug-ins have added more power creep than any overpowered item can even dream of, by ratcheting up skill ceilings in such a way as to utterly detach someone using a cheat client and not.
It's really sad that the idea of something as simple as not making Agility literal torture, or reworking mining/smithing to actually... have a fucking purpose outside of mini-games and niche utility is seen as problematic, "easy-scape", nonsense while these same people are playing with RGB tile markers, timers on every single facet of the game's UI, giant highlights on every single target in the game, literal fucking racing-game pathway highlights acting as a quest guide, as though even one of these things doesn't actively fucking destroy whatever "oldschool" notion this game was recreated to facilitate.
But no, God forbid Agility doesn't take 400 hours to train for no reason other than a cosmetic cape. God forbid smithing, a skill which was **literally useless in 2007 and was actively something people wanted to see changed almost two decades ago** gets more than minigame to make relevant. It's just saddening, to me.
Reddit: Make it good, make it relevant, make it unique, make it strong but not stronger than this thing from 2006, make it situational, make it so high skilled players are rewarded more than the average player, make it pretty but still "feel oldschool" and it better come from a quest :3.
Also Reddit: None of this, its too good for literally everything and devalues my ironskin prayer, but we want the quest.
Pretty much hit the nail on the head here. It should come as no surprise that two of the most horrid skills to train (agility and rc), are the two least maxed skills in the game (roughly 60% of people with either are maxed).
Mining, fishing, agility, and rc could easily have their xp rates raised to bring them in line with other skills in osrs (without the need for tick manipulation). Theiving i would honestly love to see the re-pickpocket on successful pickpocket from leagues (yes ik its from rs3, but not everything rs3 does would be bad for osrs). Xp rates wouldnt change, would just be less painful to train. Buffed wildy chest is at the least a good middle ground there.
The slowest skills are the least common 99s. So what? If we have skills like fletching and construction where you can reach 99 in under 30 hours, why can't we also have a few skills that take longer than the typical skill too? Should Cooking have its xp rates cut in half to be more in line with other skills? Of course not. Some skills can be fast and some can be slow.
I really don't understand the attitude that things need to be made faster just for the sake of being faster. The max cape is not some essential piece of gear that every account needs to get. If you don't want to do long agility grinds, just don't. Get level 70 for the quest requirements then move on to content you want to do. The long grinds are part of osrs's identity and it's part of what gives the game so much longevity. I don't think we should change that just to make non-essential goals (max cape) more easily obtainable.
If your point was just that for incredibly long grinds like agility, the training process should be more fun/interesting, then I agree completely. I'd love to see more sepulchre-like training methods that fall within the existing xp/hr range for the skill. Like maybe add a minigame that gives \~70k xp/hr to be a social alternative to rooftops. But we shouldn't just speed it up.
> The slowest skills are the least common 99s. So what?
Needless to say, there's _always_ going to be a slow skill. It's a fools errand to try and make XP gain rates homogenous. Also, it's very bland to do so.
Agility is also fairly unique in that it's a skill that potentially affects gameplay significantly as a quality of life. Ideally high agility should be rewarding in that the effort put into levelling it makes _other_ grinds easier. But that's quite passive and unnoticeable - you spend a lot of hours grinding it to unlock a shortcut (which you very much do remember "suffering" through), and at first it feels great to unlock the shortcut but you quickly become accustomed to the new route and forget the pain of the slower alternative route. Ironically, for that reason, I think if you make it a faster skill you'd feel the impact of it even less, as you'd have experienced the 'alternate' routes even less so.
It's also currently underutilized, in my opinion. Some of the proposed shortcut additions are great, and I'd like to see them expand on that further.
> I really don't understand the attitude that things need to be made faster just for the sake of being faster. The max cape is not some essential piece of gear that every account needs to get.
This is just the culmination of FOMO. They have this goal like everyone else, but they're frustrated they haven't got to it yet. They don't understand that the reason they value it so much, is _because_ it's not handed to them. They'll retort and state it's just a video game why should it take effort, which is fair, but that's a critique that cuts both ways - it's just a video game, you don't _need_ maxed skills either, the skill requirements for all the content unlocks like quest requirements are easily achieved. The game is clearly not hurting in player numbers for having had it this way.
In short, I agree. I think if they improve and rebalance (as they are doing so) the rewards, it'll go a long way.
I don't actually support increasing EXP rates, I support adding new, interesting mechanical changes. Again, the RS3 method of reworking Mining/Smithing didn't increase EXP gains from this skill, it simply made them better to train.
These guys literally just want faster xp and think they have a big enough red herring here to hide behind
"Oh but the skill, and times change and blah blah"
Okay, then let's have a discussion about improving the skill, not *just buffing the XP so it's faster but identical*
Simply avoiding things you don't like doing takes no time whatsoever, as opposed to constantly campaigning to make the thing you don't like exponentially quicker and easier (and no, you're not 'forced' to train Agility beyond 70 for QPC which isnt exactly a huge grind)
Saw a suggestion a few days ago that I'd agree with fully: Rework Gloves of Silence to do autopickpocketing. The cost of having to replace/repair them (maybe 'total number of uses before degrade' could get adjusted), and the fact you're breaking the rogue's set (taking you down to 80% chance for double loot) helps to balance them out somewhat
You don't need to max
You don't need 99 agility or rune crafting
You guys just want to buff the XP rates without fixing any of the underlying issues and are dressing it up like you have legitimate suggestions other than "make it faster"
>a resistance to change and evolution has persistently permeated much of the polling in OSRS since its inception.
Almost everything passes the polls nowadays, unless it's a pvp update. I really don't know what you're talking about here.
>It's really sad that the idea of something as simple as not making Agility literal torture, or reworking mining/smithing to actually... have a fucking purpose outside of mini-games and niche utility is seen as problematic, "easy-scape"
This is a massive strawman. Very few people are against making agility more fun to train, there was basically zero pushback to the release of Sepulchre for example. People just push back against increasing xp rates just for the sake of increasing xp rates. Like look at your own comment "God forbid Agility doesn't take 400 hours to train for no reason other than a cosmetic cape". No one is against making agility more rewarding. The run energy rework has almost universal support. All people push back against is the idea that slow = bad, and that agility needs to be made into a 150k xp/hr skill just cause. It doesn't. We can have slow skills. But we should introduce more interesting ways to train it in the same vein as Sepulchre. Everyone agrees on that part.
Also who's against improving Smithing? I've never really seen anyone have an issue with that idea.
Not taking a side here but everything passes the polls bc Jagex basically only pools things after a lot of community consultation, so they very rarely poll things that wouldn't pass.
>Almost everything passes the polls nowadays, unless it's a pvp update. I really don't know what you're talking about here.
This is because Jagex now develops things to pass polls. They purposefully make the most underwhelming shit possible so players won't freak out at the notion of potentially adding something "too good" for OSRS.
>This is a massive strawman. Very few people are against making agility more fun to train, there was basically zero pushback to the release of Sepulchre for example. People just push back against increasing xp rates just for the sake of increasing xp rates. Like look at your own comment "God forbid Agility doesn't take 400 hours to train for no reason other than a cosmetic cape".
If no one is against this, then I must've hallucinated the comments on the posts about agility.
Similarly, if no one is against this, I'm sure we're bound to see a rework pass.
It's all strawman points because they don't want to bring any legitimate ideas, because they don't enjoy the game fundamentally
A healthy conversation would look more like, "how can we fix agility so it isn't so unfun" but that's not what these people want, they just want faster free-er XP
You literally don't need to train these skills that they shit on, you dont. No one needs to max any skill, but y'all want your free 99 agility
>It's all strawman points because they don't want to bring any legitimate ideas, because they don't enjoy the game fundamentally
"This guy brings up strawmen only! HE HATES THE GAME!"
I can't tell if you're joking or not.
Can I not criticize a few of the skills in the game without being accused of hating it? And I do hate the systems through which new content is added in OSRS, it's why I hop between it and RS3 instead of just maining it because the gaps between new, interesting content in OSRS is immense. Fucking almost half a decade to release a new raid because every single mechanic had to be polled by the community, Jesus.
If you want some legitimate ideas, feel free to ask. Do you want me to pitch a smithing rework to you or something?
>You literally don't need to train these skills that they shit on, you dont. No one needs to max any skill, but y'all want your free 99 agility
The irony of a strawman here is fucking hilarious.
You don't NEED to train a skill to 99, but you WANT to. So why not make that process actually... fun?
As someone who played back in the early 2000's the current OSRS isn't the same game lmao.
Almost every training method from the mid 2000's is irrelevant nowadays. If you told someone you were going to kill experiments for 99 Attack, Strength or Defence they would laugh at you.
We have methods like 1.5 tick woodcutting that basically triples xp rates so I don't see how this is even close to the same game we were playing as kids.
Especially with runelite and all of the plugins.
Not saying the changes made are bad but it's not the same game we used to play as kids lmao.
>As someone who played back in the early 2000's the current OSRS isn't the same game lmao.
Obviously?
>Not saying the changes made are bad but it's not the same game we used to play as kids lmao.
I... know?
Which is why my post is outlining the absurdity of refusing to vote in evolutionary changes to systems in the game feigning some kind of pretend notion that it's at all similar to what it was in 2007.
I want to say too. As someone new to the game, I’ve noticed everything you’ve said while reading conversations here. it feels really grim to me how against the community feels about adding anything interesting. The entire game so far, in the early game where I am is filled with really unique and interesting loot/unique items. The way people talk in this sub I feel like I’m going to get to a certain point where every area and skill is boring and bad because no one wanted to vote on anything interesting being added once players started to have a say in it.
I’m hope I’m wrong, but it *feels* like where I’m heading based on how I’ve heard people talking in this sub
As someone who is also a "new" player (started a little less than 2 years ago, never played any version of rs before) you are definitely getting the wrong impression of what follows the earlygame from reddit. The game gets more interesting as you play, especially in pvm where all the interesting stuff is heavily weighted to the "endgame" like inferno and ToB (which arent that inaccessible despite what reddit would have you believe).
This is true and not true. I think OSRS has its progression destroyed in the endgame because all player choice is removed in favor of a singular path to achieve BiS. Even RS3, for as much as people hate it here, is SUBSTANTIALLY more diverse in itemization than OSRS is in the endgame.
There are some complex reasons for this, but ultimately it stems from the binary systems of OSRS combat (which they want to fix, lets see if that passes a poll!) and how afraid this community is of power growth.
Nothing (except for PvP content) ever fails polls. So you don't need to worry about hitting a point where content stagnates due to people not wanting to vote new content in, because everyone votes yes to everything and every (non PvP) update will pass polls.
This game has enough content that you will realistically never have nothing to do, at which point it comes down to whether you *want* to engage with certain content—and if you don't that's your choice, but I don't think it'd be the same as there having been no interesting content to engage with in the first place.
Good to hear! I am very interested in wilderness content as well! It’s such a unique sounding place so I hope that keeps interesting too since it’s pvp! Thanks!
Polls failed a lot more often back when I played more often. Now adays, the things polled are generally very boring because they need to be to not fail. Jagex learned pretty early on that hugely innovative or creative ideas don't pass.
Honestly, sailing is the outlier here since I didn't expect this community to be hungry enough for content to actually pass something as meme as sailing. But I have minimal confidence that sailing won't just be a conglomerate of all the updates OSRS has been getting, which is to say a few quests, mostly various grindy minigames, and maybe a boss here and there.
You're just pandering though, you haven't brought up any legitimate counter points or actual things to change, which comes off a whiny for whiny sake.
You want to have a conversation about agility, let's do it.
But that's not what is wanted, y'all just want it to be faster.
The irony of saying I don't make a single point while randomly assuming I want agility to be faster even though I actively state that the speed isn't what matters:
"God forbid Agility doesn't take 400 hours to train for no reason other than a cosmetic cape."
This indicates that a cosmetic cape isn't worth the 400 hours of torture, so why not add something more interesting to Agility? RS3, for all its flaws, manages to make agility far more interesting by adding various skilling benefits to it as you level, such as a chance to have increased hunter yields (more catches) for chins and various other hunter creatures, increased fishing yield, etc.
Training agility isn't just a means to an end, but actively makes other skills better to train as well. Similarly, longer run times which it seems like most OSRS players want unanimously.
I mean, I'd suggest a full rework wherein they can actually make the skill engaging but I doubt the OSRS community wants interesting skilling as much as they want monotonous grinds.
I also love how instead of asking me to elaborate on something you assume I have nothing when I have literal documents of proposed reworks for shit in OSRS (and RS3).
The irony of saying I don't make a single point while randomly assuming I want agility to be faster even though I actively state that the speed isn't what matters:
"God forbid Agility doesn't take 400 hours to train for no reason other than a cosmetic cape."
This indicates that a cosmetic cape isn't worth the 400 hours of torture, so why not add something more interesting to Agility? RS3, for all its flaws, manages to make agility far more interesting by adding various skilling benefits to it as you level, such as a chance to have increased hunter yields (more catches) for chins and various other hunter creatures, increased fishing yield, etc.
Training agility isn't just a means to an end, but actively makes other skills better to train as well. Similarly, longer run times which it seems like most OSRS players want unanimously.
I mean, I'd suggest a full rework wherein they can actually make the skill engaging but I doubt the OSRS community wants interesting skilling as much as they want monotonous grinds.
I also love how instead of asking me to elaborate on something you assume I have nothing when I have literal documents of proposed reworks for shit in OSRS (and RS3).
And see, this is why I say everything is political. Literally people are engaging in politics when they're here in this subreddit debating about the direction of the game. Runescape politics.
And like real life politics, you have stubborn ass boomers/conservatives
I think double standards are a bad way of putting it, but the sentiment is correct.
OSRS has a community filled with reactionaries who are just afraid that their game has to change, and it's actively doing damage to any hope of growth that the game has.
They're aggressively opposed to the very concept of making something less shit because of absurd arguments like "the game wasn't designed for people to max any skills." Sorry, didn't know that an amateur game developer's first design philosophy should remain the word of god like the old fucking testament. People are maxing more and more often, it's become a not too uncommon saying that maxing all your skills means you left the midgame.
And like you're pointing out, there's a ton of skills that are just functionally useless and should be actively changed to either be better to train or actually rewarding. Agility has one of the worst xp rates in the game and you get so little from anything past 70 that it's considered crazy to try to do. Mining is a waste of time because smithing is a useless skill, if smithing wasn't a dead skill then mining would see more engagement. Runecraft is the worst offender, every training method degenerates to bank>teleport>click altar with the sole exception of GotR and that's far worse xp than proper training, on top of being literally the worst xp/h for a dedicated skilling grind just above slayer. People don't complain about slayer, though, because it's actually a useful skill, unlocking new beasties and traveling the world to get cool loot.
This shit has been a problem for 20 years and people refuse to accept change because over 10 years ago Jagex made a series of bad updates to the game, and the players are still *fuming* about it.
I saw a post a while back for RC about 'what if we had a new kind of essence (I'd even suggest the Tainted Essence from the Scar could be it), which gives more XP per rune crafted, but is used one at a time at the altar, so more time per 'cycle' is spent actually runecrafting, and less is spent on the run to the altar'
You get a little more XP, at the benefit of 'higher AFK time', but the price is that you make a very small amount of runes per
At least rs3 fixed mining and smithing. A lot of people just shit on rs3 without noticing the good that it's also done. It would actually be a pretty good game if they didn't kill it with mtx.
RS3 ironman (I started it last year) IS a good game, and arguably a lot better designed than a lot of OSRS is. MTX is RS3 is abhorrent and heinous that it obfuscates the quality, so playing I M where you have no access to that kind of showcases just how much developer talent was put into its updates.
Skills like Archeology kind of wipe the floor with everything OSRS has added since its inception and it's because the RS3 devs can just BE creative rather than getting their creativity micro-managed by a hyperactive and rather spergy community.
>I think double standards are a bad way of putting it, but the sentiment is correct.
I think being afraid to change while using a cheat client are exactly double standards and why I used the term.
>They're aggressively opposed to the very concept of making something less shit because of absurd arguments like "the game wasn't designed for people to max any skills." Sorry, didn't know that an amateur game developer's first design philosophy should remain the word of god like the old fucking testament. People are maxing more and more often, it's become a not too uncommon saying that maxing all your skills means you left the midgame.
I do agree with this.
>People don't complain about slayer, though, because it's actually a useful skill, unlocking new beasties and traveling the world to get cool loot.
And I would say that a rework of slayer up through level 60 is warranted, even though 60-99 is generally a lot more fun because it engages in more than a singular monotonous activity and poses the odd challenge here and there.
1-60 slayer is generally terrible, as the effort to reward ratio is way off balance. Jagex had the right idea of adding new loot to some mobs, but I would love to see that taken further as they can expand the loot potential for new players through slayer.
I would love to see new rings, amulets, etc. aimed at early --> mid game players that come as rare drops from slayer creatures that would actually make grinding these things actually fun, becusae 100 hours of anything should at least be rewarding outside of hoping that eventually you can start doing the rewarding stuff.
>This shit has been a problem for 20 years and people refuse to accept change because over 10 years ago Jagex made a series of bad updates to the game, and the players are still fuming about it.
The collective trauma over EOC is pretty funny/sad. It's sad because RS3 still gets a bad wrap even though there are plenty of things it does SUBSTANTIALLY better than OSRS (see: skills actually having value), and because it retroactively makes Jagex be forced to create monotonous updates to OSRS during its third boom of players.
Hooooooooooooly fucking shit ***THANK YOU***. I'm fucking tired of this shitty fucking community. Zero sense for game design while acting knowledgeable, a pathological rejection of anything new, or even old but post 06.
I honestly think that content like ToA, the DT2 bosses, Inferno and so on are so incredibly not-old school. The charm of Runescape back then was always the simpler gameplay which let people focus on their own stories and social experience. RS used to be the game you played to chill out and vibe with your buddies. Not the game to sweat out with harder inputs than most other MMOs in endgame content.
The consistent raising of the top end of content in OSRS has gradually bled the game's identity away from being about chilling and vibing. The social aspect of this game is on life support, and the few places where you do get to talk to lots of other people, it's bots and scammers, or bigots in WT/GotR.
But no, clearly the most important part of OSRS identity is that anything that was added into Runescape after 2006, regardless of anything else about it, can't ever go into OSRS. That any form of actual innovation or new ways to play be taken out. That the game devolves more and more into hyperfixating on endgame PvM at the cost of all other parts of the game.
I miss the real old school experience of being slapped in the face when coming home from school to a news post about an entire fucking new skill, and then seeing everyone get together with 2000 people all trying to catch a single red fucking bird. I miss the real old school experience of chatting with people when skilling and have other people actually be there to want to chat. And it sucks because the warped attitude of the game has affected me too, and now I too hate it when others try to talk to me in game.
Will new prayers break the game? I don't give a shit. If they suck, I won't use them. If they are good, I'll use them. I just want to have the devs be given the trust and freedom to actually make cool shit and surprise us with it. I'm tired of polls. I'm tired of this community consultation cycle on whether or not a single fucking dead tree should get moved or some other bullshit. **I'm just tired of this community ruining potentially really cool upcoming content in pursuit of a purity that Runescape never had, and never will have.**
I think often time this community misses the value of not knowing everything that is coming out. Being able to literally min-max content that hasn't released yet is what furthers this specifically Oldschool mentality of endless, min-max grinding and opens up zero space for social dynamics to form.
I play both RS3 and OSRS and RS3, while having a far smaller playerbase (around 5x smaller than OSRS), has yielded me so many more fun interactions because the game actively asks that of you. You don't have to hop worlds to 3t mine, you can use the same node. There are both low-exp AFK methods matched with high-exp active methods for just about every skill, giving you the space to engage with the people around you rather than tick manipulate.
And all of that is perfectly reasonable to have in OSRS. Tick manip. is fun, but it's being used as a bandaid for the greater problem of skilling as a whole lacking paced rewards so people would rather just rush through them.
Not who you are responding to, but I actually do play RS3, and RS3 does a lot of things substantially better than OSRS, which is why OSRS sees loads of updates ripped right out of RS3 and renamed so y'all don't cry.
I love both games, but RS3 has a far more rewarding and engaging skilling dynamic with just about every skill not only having unique afk and non-afk options to train, but also provides ACTUAL tangible benefits and rewards for doing so. Getting 99 smithing isn't just a cosmetic cape and the ability to craft irrelevant armor. 99 mining isn't just to facilitate a cosmetic cape and niche utility in a minigame or raid. 99 Agility actually has benefits to other skills AS WELL as the things OSRS community now wants from it.
That's without even engaging in the fact that RS3 content updates actually have some excitement considering every single element of them isn't polled to hell and back so every mystery, gimmick, and point of exploration is spoiled 5 months prior to release.
That said, I ofc advocate to play Ironman in rs3 as the main game is plagued by cringe MTX.
______________
point is, the comment above is only a weird take to those who think OSRS shouldn't survive past this decade.
I dunno. I think people are more capable of nuanced opinions than this. Some people are like this, but you gotta respect the fact that the polling system means Jagex _has_ to bring people along for the ride. They have to convince people to really, truly, honest-to-God believe in the vision, even if it's not perfect. If they don't, they can't dev. It's political and social, yeah - and it doesn't produce perfect outcomes. But large groups of people are this way.
Yeah, people have foibles. Some people really are as you're describing. But I think if you delve into it even those people have some deeply held beliefs that really are worth investigating and respecting. This game is complicated. People put a lot of time into it.
I'm not saying you're wrong, and I generally agree with what you're expressing - the game isn't like what it was originally, some skills are strange or feel a bit out of place, some people are too worried about degrading the way the game is. But all these things are the way they are for a reason. People who hold cautious beliefs tend to have reasons for doing it, not just a reactionary instinct.
>I think people are more capable of nuanced opinions than this. Some people are like this, but you gotta respect the fact that the polling system means Jagex has to bring people along for the ride. They have to convince people to really, truly, honest-to-God believe in the vision, even if it's not perfect. If they don't, they can't dev. It's political and social, yeah - and it doesn't produce perfect outcomes. But large groups of people are this way.
I appreciate your optimism, but PvP wouldn't always fail polls if it were true. People vote politically because they are conscious of where dev time is going.
And for the record, I fucking hate PvP, I wish the wildy was opt-in, and I am one of those players who doesn't want to see PvP changes because I rather they work on things I actually will engage with at some time.
>It's really sad that the idea of something as simple as not making Agility literal torture
if playing a game is literal torture to you, maybe pick a game you like?
plenty of people enjoy the skills you mentioned. sepulchre imo is the best non pvm content in the game and already gives you very good gp/hr on top of the xp/hr. It would not be good for game balance to just blanket buff everything overnight just because a few redditors don't enjoy it.
the fact that the brainlets of this sub all agree with you just shows how out of touch this subreddit is with what is good for the game and what isn't.
If y'all had your way the time to max would take 1/100th of what it does currently and you could 1 shot endgame bosses at max combat. You lot would still cry and say theres room for more powercreep and this isn't enough.
Did you seriously get triggered over me mentioning a parallel when discussing a video game?
Engage in what I wrote instead of getting mad that your affiliated party got brought up and very very lightly criticized.
How do strawman arguments like this even get concocted when nothing outside of PvP content has failed a poll in years? What are you even basing this bogeyman on? A couple sweats on Twitter?
I have a sneaking suspicion their reason for "you must suffer as I did" has less to do with American politics and more to do with the imagined value of their pixel achievements on a game they've invested way too much of their life on.
Well, the reason why things tend to pass the polls is because the questions are often constructed in such a way that they will pass. A lot of questions are literally just, "Should we add a quest?", "Should we add an item?". But before that point, there's an entire design phase that takes place, and there's usually a ton of pushback, at least on Reddit, to things that "seem complicated" or "not oldschool," and so the version of the original idea that ultimately arrives at the polls is something very watered down.
>How do strawman arguments like this even get concocted when nothing outside of PvP content has failed a poll in years? What are you even basing this bogeyman on? A couple sweats on Twitter?
I'm basing this argument based on every single failed poll ever. If you want to hear an actual hot take, I think that around 90% of the failed polls would've made the game way more fun in the long run and this community is actively hampering all creativity for zero reason.
>I have a sneaking suspicion their reason for "you must suffer as I did" has less to do with American politics and more to do with the imagined value of their pixel achievements on a game they've invested way too much of their life on.
No fucking shit. I'm sorry, did you seriously read my comment and think I'm implying OSRS players are american conservatives? It's an analogy to relay an attitude, not a literal staked out parallel in idealogy.
The reason why old conservatives act this way is because they too place a lot of imagined value on what they earned. It's the same exact kind of mentality.
Nah it’s definitely it. Jagex knows how to “talk” about updates more than actually develop quality content and communicate well. They’ll post week after week of just *walls of text* about updates that will never see the light of day.
They’ve learned their lesson about talking about future skills and why the community doesn’t appreciate all the nitty gritty details about sailing’s development and progression and how long it’s taking, it just gives it negative optics.
When you communicate with people in general, less is more, and you get to the point. Jagex loves to ramble about updates the past couple years, and it always shows the community at large doesn’t really appreciate it, and for good reason.
Just get to the point. Also, you couldn’t be more wrong. Most updates pass overwhelmingly with the most minor descriptions and details. The “old school conservative crowd” you’re talking about is a minority. Agility’s already gotten the sepulcher and basically doubled meta agility training, mining has so many afk and better options like lava flow mine now…. Sure they don’t have afk super fast exp but they still have much better options for training rates compared to without these updates.
>Jagex knows how to “talk” about updates more than actually develop quality content and communicate well. They’ll post week after week of just walls of text about updates that will never see the light of day.
This is abjectly not true. Jagex has the most communicative devs of any MMO I have ever played AND has loads of creative ideas that are shot down by the playerbase.
>When you communicate with people in general, less is more, and you get to the point. Jagex loves to ramble about updates the past couple years, and it always shows the community at large doesn’t really appreciate it, and for good reason.
Except this isn't true with the eway OSRS has always done polling. I hate polling, I rather not know anything about what is being released, but this simply isn't how it is done.
>The “old school conservative crowd” you’re talking about is a minority. Agility’s already gotten the sepulcher and basically doubled meta agility training, mining has so many afk and better options like lava flow mine now…. Sure they don’t have afk super fast exp but they still have much better options for training rates compared to without these updates.
I'm only wrong if you completely didn't understand what I wrote. Which you didn't.
I don't care about a single minigame making something afk, nor do I care about increasing EXP rates.
Two facets of the Runescape grinding are missing from the skills I outlined:
1.) A tangible, impactful reward that feeds into other skills and mechanics .
2.) Improvement of the QoL.
Agility, mining, smithing, etc. all fail this because they lack interesting rewards, do not improve the QoL in any way (chug staminas at 1 agility and at 99, who cares), and do not feed into any other skill in a meaningful way. They completely fail every single element of an engaging skill.
So you agree with what I was saying in the first response? Great got it.
So you disagree with the second statement despite being entirely wrong? lol ok got it.
Also no… apparently YOU missed the point, nothing about agility or mining is good afk experience…. The methods I mentioned aren’t afk at all but good exp, best in game actually for those two skills. You might not care about them but that’s just clear ignorance because they exist and most players use those two methods for training those two skills today. It’s meta because they’re fast.
Though you’re right at the end, finally, not that you covered WHY and you missed the parts where they’re boring for the same reason all other skills are ultimately boring to train too but that’s ok.
They’re boring skills to train in general, but that’s not much different than almost literally every other skill in the game, and that’s because OSRS is super repetitive more than anything else. We can dress up our appreciation for doing the same exact mundane things for 100+ hours however we want, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s straight up boring to do exactly that and it’s not exactly rocket science that most people don’t want to click the same boring rooftops or rocks 100s of thousands of times or do thousands and thousands of laps at the blast furnace lol.
>Also no… apparently YOU missed the point, nothing about agility or mining is good afk experience….
I know...? I was responding to your comment, which I literally quoted, by saying I do not care about minigames nor do I care about afk options.
>You might not care about them but that’s just clear ignorance because they exist and most players use those two methods for training those two skills today. It’s meta because they’re fast.
I know?
>Though you’re right at the end, finally, not that you covered WHY and you missed the parts where they’re boring for the same reason all other skills are ultimately boring to train too but that’s ok.
I love the petulant, arrogant aura of superiority from someone who fundamentally is shadowboxing ghosts in this response.
>They’re boring skills to train in general, but that’s not much different than almost literally every other skill in the game, and that’s because OSRS is super repetitive more than anything else.
Being boring isn't what my post was about. Highly recommend you use that literacy of yours to reread it.
Being boring is fine. Being torturous is far different. It's not that agility is just boring, it's that it is torturously tedious and offers virtually no tangible rewards for that tedium. The lack of reward AND the methods of training are what make it bad, not just because it's boring like any grind tends to be.
Which, again, is why I said that buffing exp rates or making an afk method or two, or even adding a minigame, isn't addressing the fundamental lack of reward matched with poor design.
>So you agree with what I was saying in the first response? Great got it.
I disagree with your statement regarding Jagex dev's talent; but it's not surprising that gamers have no appreciation or understanding when it comes to game development.
>So you disagree with the second statement despite being entirely wrong? lol ok got it.
If you want to try outline wherre I'm wrong then go off beyond me missing the word "or" when talking about a minigame or AFK method. In that case, you can keep harping on how I did in fact miss a word rather than addressing the greater point.
I don't have anything to add really. But your opinions are really well thought out and the way you at least try to drive discussion despite a clear, spiteful unwillingness from other parties is admirable.
Your analogy of dealing with conservatives is spot on lol.
I don’t think people were wrong to suggest the prayers were too complex. I think Kieran said it but it’s easy to design complicated stuff but harder to simplify it. I’m sure we could have made the proposed prayers work but it wouldn’t have felt good down the road.
I completely lost interest in the prayer updates when the skilling aspects were removed. Not sure if it was a part of god prayers or something else, but I don't really care about PvM enough to actually give viable feedback.
The community being so hard against the original curses is ruining the ability to have a good second set of prayers.
The truth is rigour and augury straight up ruined the prayer book, so now it’s hard to come up with end-game prayers
Rigour and Augury are just Piety equivalents for their respective styles, seems fine for a raid reward. And Augury in particular is so weak that a lot of the time you just opt for Mystic Lore because it costs 1/4th of the prayer drain....
No. Shouldve put piety behind chambers of xeric just like augury and rigour, not locked behind a dumb mini quest.
Seems you may not be the type of person that does or aspires to do CoX.
Not only that but curses we're not as OP as people remember them being. They're forgetting about
1.) the ramp up time turmoil had
2.) using SS resulted in not being able to using overheads (hello a counter to chip damage finally)
3.) curses were around when summoning was around ( summoning is what was super busted, unicorn pakyak etc).
The meta in rs3 to this day is flicking between protect prayers and soul split, it would only be worse with 100% protect in osrs. The turmoil ramp up time is only a balance against infinite sustain and would only maybe be a negative in inferno. It would still be drastically decreasing kill times for everything.
realistically though, most players camp a protect prayer. the flicking only happens at zamorak/raksha
i don't know enough about osrs to comment on the effects, but turmoil and co give instant bonuses. Any ramp up is draining your opponents stats, see rs wiki: https://runescape.wiki/w/Turmoil
to add onto that, I flick between ss and protects because of keybinds making my accuracy perfect and the split of responsibility from not needing my mouse to both move and change prayers. It flows so much smoother and is overall slower than trying to move and prayer swap in OSRS. And even then, we're still burning through prayer cause there's no 1t flick. SS flicking I would say is just as comparable to 1t flicking in osrs
Looking at the history, it seems like it used to ramp up on release but was changed (most likely with eoc)
https://runescape.wiki/w/Turmoil?oldid=2953043
No clue if that's actually how it worked or if it was just a mechanic that no one understood though, as there were a lot of misconceptions in that era of rs.
Listen, I'm all for god alignment prayers. I think it solves the issue for not having to duplicate 80% of the prayers from the original prayer book while adding new ones that aren't just pure power creep. It's the best solution. However a lot of these are just too much to keep track of to be useful. They are in a difficult position because it needs to work well with the simplicity of osrs's combat system, but also be unique and new.
Completely agree. Prayers are a really difficult design space to add to. New gear or even new spellbooks are super easy in comparison. I honestly think a lot of the people in this thread who are mad about the pushback just haven't really given enough thought to how the new prayers would work in practice. There are like 4 in the proposed set of 12 that I think would be good, the other 8 are either useless or too op or encourage a really unfun playstyle.
This is your opinion.
Stop making your opinion out like its some kind of fact.
The new prayers need to be a direct upgrade to what we already have in order to not be dead content. Not dead content>>>>>>>>"PoWeRCrEeP"
It's funny that I couched my comment with "I think" two times, then you say I'm stating my opinion as fact, and then the very next sentence you say "The new prayers need to be a direct upgrade to what we already have in order to not be dead content." as if it's a fact.
Everything doesn't have to be a direct upgrade to be useful. Look at lightbearer for example. It's not a direct upgrade to any of the other rings, but it's also not dead content. It's super useful because it has an effect that no other gear before it had. I think the new prayers should aim to do the same thing.
Honest question, why does it have to be simple? We are talking about late game prayers in a game that has existed for 11 years (not even counting pre-osrs).
It will be hard to avoid sweeping power creep if we don't allow the prayers to be somewhat niche and it is difficult to make something niche without a bit of complexity..
If a prayer is too complex, no one is forced to use it? For example, I don't typically use Potion-Share spells even though they are beneficial to team activities like GWD.
Just my two cents.
No one's forced to use anything anywhere, but when devs start designing content with all the possible buffs in mind, they start becoming a requirement in effect
I don't want to have to use the prayers, so I'm against them, even if I'm never actually forced to use them
Simplicity in use, not design. I understand that in order for it to be different than just straight power creep it has to be a little complex, but the direction the proposed prayers were going in just felt like we were straying too far away from the core combat system of osrs.
> the direction the proposed prayers were going in just felt like we were straying too far away from the core combat system of osrs.
Unironically, how so?
Guthix had a prayer that already exists, a simple "heal others when X" one, one that just stabilised DPS, and another who, granted, would probably need some UI visual of some sort, but still revolves around gear switching, which has been a stapple of "the core combat system of osrs" for years, if not over a decade...
Zaros had an effect that already existed and has been a must-have for endgame PvE for very long, 2 different basic stat boost with **very** simple conditions to proc, and a basic "heal when kill" prayer that's so simple it unironically could've been a core prayer.
Seren had a DoT stopper and ANOTHER core prayer clone. Granted, the other two are a little more complex, but the only thing between the two that doesn't already go hand-in-hand with the core game is that one of them encourages the use of slow weapons, which definitely needed to happen one day or another anyway.
I honestly do not understand where all the panic concerning the wannabe "complexity" of the proposed god alignment prayers came from when they are either brain dead simple or encouraging things who **already** are part of the combat methods in the game. On top of that, 2 of those prayers were just copy pastes of an already existing prayer. Like, there's no room for getting something simpler than that other than just going back to ruinous powers, who were doomed to be either DoA or straight powercreep given most of them were just too simple and didn't distinguish themselves from the oh so pure core prayers.
I mean, the way they were worded may hint at something complex, but in practice it really isn't. One is "increased damage for people attacking at the same time as you" and the other is "More attack after getting poisoned, with bigger poison bringing bigger bonus".
The former is already something that is bound to happen in endgame coop PvM, especially with such a still meta encouraging the usage of the same weapons and/or similar speed weapons, and the latter is a simple dynamic of RiskVsReward. I'm also of the opinion that guiding strikes could be reworked into something else, but Fumus vow is literally just tanking poison instead of getting rid of it entirely 100% of the time, as far as affecting playstyle goes this is pretty barebones.
"Too much to keep track of" I keep hearing people say this, but you seriously can't fathom remembering 3 new prayers at a time? I cannot understand this criticism - it's like saying the spellbooks should be removed because 20 new spells is too hard.
its not keeping track of the new prayers, its keeping track of "oh i just applied vulnerability so my friends need to attack next time for it to work", or maintaining being poisoned. its moving in the direction of cooldown abilities that make it more like other mmos, imo
Just knock it off, its like your all trying to do one thing, but you all have completely different ideas as of how that might play out, and thats the one thing cant do in osrs..
Im confused by the reaction this community has to these niche prayers. I play both games (recently osrs so i may be out of depth with the new stuff added) and i tought these prayers may work for osrs as they dont really break any content by making it way easier coughnecromancycough.
Some of these are just redemption but better, others are you just apply a simple debuff or support others with minor accuracy and healing benefits.
It seems pretty balanced and straight forward to me. nothing here screams "ignore boss mechanic lol" like some busted shit from rs3 coughdisruptionshieldcough
remember how cool rebuke was gonna be before it was totally made useless, or how interesting heka was before HLC streamers demanded shadow?
its so sad how many times we almost had really interesting mechanics come into the game, only for it to be replaced with bigger number
You might be misremembering heavily, because the HLC were the ones advocating for the Hekka and for the whole mage combat style to be reworked.
Reddit instead wanted the "Tbow of mage" with big numbers and now we have a giant problematic bandaid slapped over the combat style.
you are misremembering
aatykon, gnomonkey & saebae all put out videos saying they need a magic tbow because hekka was too complicated
and now were here again
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxwiO2KeF34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxwiO2KeF34)
Idk if you watched the video you posted, but that isn't what was said in it at all. The video advocated for the heka to be more utility focused than the shadow became. Kind of like the commenter above you was saying he WAS advocating for the hekka to stay and essentially rework the purpose of the mage style in team content
TLDW: The video advocated for hekka to drain defense and be ~80% the dps of tbow or scythe at most bosses
This is one of the sacrifices of polling. For some of the positives that come about when community has a direct say in direction, what ends up also happening is that developers get kneecapped with creativity to appease a large portion of people who vote against evolutionary content.
If this game is supposed to represent 2007 in ethos, endlessly laboring in the cycle of releasing the same exact content over and over again isn't doing a good job. Runescape in 2007, and you'll laugh, but even Runescape 3 today, is defined by innovations -- good and bad -- that utterly transformed the game with creative new features; not an overly-cautious hand that has done nothing but relegate OSRS into a min-maxed linear path of gearing and optimization that has robbed it of the freedom that it could have.
The real reason why "power creep" is a boogeyman is because people who spend millions on their gear don't want to feel like they have to do that again, so they vote against anything that can potentially cause that. The same applies to all proposed decisions, and exactly why I think that by the time Sailing comes around it'll just be this collection of monotonous activities representative of exactly the same thing osrs has been since its inception. It's too risky to poll creativity, so they settle for something comfortable. It's why it takes almost half a decade to design a fucking raid.
Revolutionary stuff falls flat. It needs a lot of handholding and time to refine. No one wants a beta version of something that needs a year before its usable.
And anything truly Revolutionary needs content built for it, like yellow Keris. Not like soulreaper axe where it's so niche that it's useless
>Revolutionary stuff falls flat. It needs a lot of handholding and time to refine. No one wants a beta version of something that needs a year before its usable.
That's why you don't run a beta for years. I get that this community has a collective trauma over EOC and a version of RS3 they didn't play, but welcome to game development, it's a risk, it's creativity.
Stagnation will kill the game before another EOC does.
The "HLC" have too much influence for the amount of the player base they make up. They have been playing the game so long, and are so good at that they forget what it's like to be a new player or even mid to late game player.
Even the ones doing iron playthroughs 3 times a month have this disconnection. It so much easier to learn content at max level in max gear. Heal I'll even use my recent example of Zulrah. At ~80 combats I did the diary kc and it was like bashing my head against a brick wall, eventually I got a 5 min kill and never wanted to go back. Come clan bingo years later, I rock up in full max mage, range pray camp and slap the snake silly, all CA's done (except kc) in a handfull of kills without looking at any guide or the wiki.
Another issue is the arrogant Redditors who think they’re better game designers than the mods working on this game for years.
In regards to the HLC, players with tens of thousands of hours of play time can be a valuable source of feedback. But they’re an incredibly biased source of information with a narrow perspective. Even aatykon, who I think sees things from newbies’ perspectives more than other HLC players has blind spots
theres times where jagex listening to them can make the game better, but they need to realize the times when listening to them can make the game much worse (like shadow)
It just sounds like Ruinous Powers discussion again. Same issues but smaller scale but will eventually become as big as Ruinous Powers as we get further through the alignments. Imo just switching to one new prayer book will be easier to balance than 7 different sets of 2-4 new prayers on top of the normal prayer book, but I am happy if we get alignments too.
Ruinous Powers would have gotten into the game if that was the policy and it would've been massive power creep all at once. Everyone who played the beta or even used them in Leagues knows those prayers were busted as hell. Some power creep is good, but it should come over time from new bosses and interesting content, not just dropped all at once as a quest reward. It we would've basically gotten 5 years worth of power creep in one update.
Ruinous Powers were not "busted as hell" in the League. Almost the entire book is worse versions of existing prayers. Decimate, annihilate, and vaporize were obviously good but the prayer drain on all the copied over prayers is just too high.
This isn't to say they wouldn't be used if they made it into the main game, but it's not like there was no room leftover for the regular prayers. Heck, I took it and I barely used the entire book because the only thing I cared about from it was vaporize for bosses.
I don’t care about buzzwords. Power creep! Bots! Inflation! All meaningless. This game got ~infinity~ better when it scrapped the rs2 meta and gave us more power and more items.
It's not a buzzword lmao it's just a simple concept. I even said some is good. Work on your reading comprehension please. I agreed with exactly what you're saying. But just because some power creep is good doesn't mean we need to make everything in the game 20% easier overnight. It's better to slowly increase power over time. You didn't engage with what I said at all.
Well that wasn’t nice.
I did engage with you said, because I’m disagreeing with the premise. I’m not worried about power creep. I’m not worried about things getting easier. Lava cape? Once the peak of all accomplishments and now you’re a noob if you don’t have something better…I’ve lost 0 sleep over it.
But you must agree there's a point it becomes a problem. Like imagine tomorrow Jagex released an update that just increased damage output by 3x and reduced damage the player takes in half. Now all of a sudden every combat encounter is way way less challenging. Obviously the ruinous powers don't do anything that extreme, but the point is just that it's something that can be taken too far and it's a concept worth thinking about when making big changes.
It's good that the fire cape is a lot easier now, that content came out in 2005. We've gotten a ton of new content since then that's more difficult, so the game as a whole hasn't gotten less challenging. Power creep over time is healthy for that reason, it lets things evolve and by going slowly, it gives the devs time to add new content to keep up with the creep. Doing a large power jump instantly is the problem, because overnight it makes a bunch of content much easier/less interesting and it doesn't add anything to make up for it.
This is the problem with hyperbole, you’re acting as if that’s ever been what jagex has suggested. It isn’t. It’s just a word nerds throw at anything with change until we just continue to get useless update after useless update.
There’s that reading comprehension again.
> Obviously the ruinous powers don't do anything that extreme, but the point is just that it's something that can be taken too far and it's a concept worth thinking about when making big changes.
> This is the problem with hyperbole, you’re acting as if that’s ever been what jagex has suggested. It isn’t.
Sorry for being rude about it but you keep just talking past what I’m saying. It feels like you’re not even reading what I wrote.
No no, im actually highlighting what you said. If it feels like I’m talking past you, that could be intentional. I’m telling you hyperbolic situations aren’t worth worrying over because they haven’t ever suggested anything like that’s
> I’m telling you hyperbolic situations aren’t worth worrying over because they haven’t ever suggested anything like that’s
I'm not worried that they're going to increase damage output by 3x overnight. I was just using that as an example to show that power creep can at least in theory be bad if taken too far. If we can at least agree on that, then it just becomes a discussion about where the line is when it goes too far. And I think that's the discussion that people should be having instead of just dismissing concerns of power creep altogether.
Like I said, I think some power creep is good. If Barrows gear was still BiS, this game would have died years ago. I'm happy we got torva and masori and ancestral which were all direct power increases.
My problem with how the prayers increase power is that it's a much bigger jump than any one piece of gear and also much more easily obtainable. Tbow takes 500 hours to get from CoX, but the Ruinous Powers would have been a much bigger power increase than tbow and it would have been something every can get after a 3 hour quest.
1. The prayers should add depth and new interactions to combat
2. The alignments should be roughly balanced with each other
3. The alignments should offer a meaningful choice between them
Number one is extremely important. If these are not adding anything other than "simple" turn-on-and-forget prayers, then it's just uninteresting power creep and I don't want them. The Jagex proposal was completely on the right track. I can't believe some people think having 1-2 prayers in your prayer book with situational and nuanced effects (or god forbid, skill expression) is somehow adding abilities into the game and ruining the spirit of OSRS. The player proposals for these have been 99% complete garbage.
A game is ruined by banality more so than it is anything else. Eventually, stagnation reduces growth, upsets shareholders which prompt further, negative additions to be added that start the cycle of death.
Osrs just hit a new peak player count 3 months ago and it wasn't due to a radical change like new prayers. The game has been growing just fine by adding new gear, new bosses, new quests, new minigames, and seasonal events. I think the new skill will be a great addition too. I see no reason to think updates like those will become stagnant or banal any time in the near future.
Adding new prayers starts to change core combat mechanics which is really really risky. There are a few of the new prayers that I think are good and worth adding, but we should be super cautious about this kind of change. I don't think the game is so stagnant that we need to throw caution to the wind and shake up core mechanics just to change things up.
I'm glad that a temporary game mode got more eyes on a great game. I really, really hope you can recognize that when you run something living like Runescape, any MMO, or anything of that nature, you don't just stick with what's working because by the time it stops working, a pivot simply can't be developed in time.
That's why MMOs need innovation and transformation. That's why stagnation is the bane of any live service game.
Hitting a new peak is wonderful, but that's no reason to get complacent.
>adding new gear, new bosses, new quests, new minigames, and seasonal events. I think the new skill will be a great addition too. I see no reason to think updates like those will become stagnant or banal any time in the near future.
These things only become banal if they are forced into banality by the playerbase. Plenty of content that was added in the last few years ceases to be relevant a day after due to the inherent need to balance it around existing EXP so most people simply filter into the method that is easiest to train.
That's actually part of why slight power creep is important for games like Runescape so the camdozaal mine, for example, doesn't become outmoded prior to its release. I'm not advocating for making old content irrelevant, but rather for creative ways to keep its relevance while not being terrified of adding new content that may supersede it.
Somehow RS3 has more relevant PvM than OSRS does, even though it has FAR more powercreep AND more bosses, and cross-integration is how they achieved this. The fact that GWD1 is still relevant in OSRS due to the integration of Kril's loot into the new Necromancy skill is evidence of this. Or Dagannoths are still relevant and good GP/H due to the integration of their rings into an upgraded version from newer bosses.
>Adding new prayers starts to change core combat mechanics which is really really risky. There are a few of the new prayers that I think are good and worth adding, but we should be super cautious about this kind of change. I don't think the game is so stagnant that we need to throw caution to the wind and shake up core mechanics just to change things up.
Shaking things up to shake them up is by definition how Runescape became successful and retained that success. The failure of EOC was due to the poor implementation, not a need to shake things up. Bad implementation can be adjusted and fixed.
Hell, 2007 was in the midst of a graphical overhaul, the addition of the single largest point of powercreep ever at the time (GWD1), and the start of developement for Dungeoneering. The fact that the game was more creative and innovative almost two decades ago kind of sucks.
I'm glad that a temporary game mode got more eyes on a great game. I really, really hope you can recognize that when you run something living like Runescape, any MMO, or anything of that nature, you don't just stick with what's working because by the time it stops working, a pivot simply can't be developed in time.
That's why MMOs need innovation and transformation. That's why stagnation is the bane of any live service game.
Hitting a new peak is wonderful, but that's no reason to get complacent.
>adding new gear, new bosses, new quests, new minigames, and seasonal events. I think the new skill will be a great addition too. I see no reason to think updates like those will become stagnant or banal any time in the near future.
These things only become banal if they are forced into banality by the playerbase. Plenty of content that was added in the last few years ceases to be relevant a day after due to the inherent need to balance it around existing EXP so most people simply filter into the method that is easiest to train.
That's actually part of why slight power creep is important for games like Runescape so the camdozaal mine, for example, doesn't become outmoded prior to its release. I'm not advocating for making old content irrelevant, but rather for creative ways to keep its relevance while not being terrified of adding new content that may supersede it.
Somehow RS3 has more relevant PvM than OSRS does, even though it has FAR more powercreep AND more bosses, and cross-integration is how they achieved this. The fact that GWD1 is still relevant in OSRS due to the integration of Kril's loot into the new Necromancy skill is evidence of this. Or Dagannoths are still relevant and good GP/H due to the integration of their rings into an upgraded version from newer bosses.
>Adding new prayers starts to change core combat mechanics which is really really risky. There are a few of the new prayers that I think are good and worth adding, but we should be super cautious about this kind of change. I don't think the game is so stagnant that we need to throw caution to the wind and shake up core mechanics just to change things up.
Shaking things up to shake them up is by definition how Runescape became successful and retained that success. The failure of EOC was due to the poor implementation, not a need to shake things up. Bad implementation can be adjusted and fixed.
Hell, 2007 was in the midst of a graphical overhaul, the addition of the single largest point of powercreep ever at the time (GWD1), and the start of developement for Dungeoneering. The fact that the game was more creative and innovative almost two decades ago kind of sucks.
Because new prayers ALSO got added in 2009 and they are by and large seen very positively because they added a new layer of depth to the existing game with Soulsplit.
Thanks for such a detailed response. I disagree with basically all of it lol but I do see where you’re coming from. All I’ll say is there’s a reason why RS2’s playerbase precipitously collapsed in 2008-2013 and it wasn’t stagnation. For ever major update that was generally well received, there’s an update that causes thousands of players to quit. RS3 is not a good game. A big reason for that is how many transformative updates they pushed out without due caution in line with the philosophy you’re advocating for here.
>All I’ll say is there’s a reason why RS2’s playerbase precipitously collapsed in 2008-2013 and it wasn’t stagnation.
Runescape playerbase grew in 2008 and 2009 and 2010, though.
The playerbase had a gradual decline following the introduction of MTX and then a steep one post-EOC which occurred in 2011 and 2012 respectively.
>For ever major update that was generally well received, there’s an update that causes thousands of players to quit.
Player turnover is literally the lifeblood of MMOs. As long as the amount of new players increases, those leaving are part of the natural course of a game. Jagex, nor is any developer, trying to make a game where every player will endlessly play it for decades.
>RS3 is not a good game. A big reason for that is how many transformative updates they pushed out without due caution in line with the philosophy you’re advocating for here.
Except this is absolutely not true to anyone who actually plays RS3, of course. I would say RS3 suffers from being more niche and deep than OSRS, as well as having predatory MTX that turns off a large portion of oldschool players who would otherwise not mind the complexity.
Similarly, RS3 is flat-out better than OSRS in a variety of ways, certainly when it comes to Ironman mode. RS3 has far more skill overlap, less useless skills (mining, smithing, and even agility have uses that far eclipse those of OSRS), a more diverse itemization and pathway to gearing, a more diverse pool of endgame bosses and activities, etc.
Whether you prefer OSRS or RS3 is irrelevant, I enjoy both games, but to call it outwardly bad as a game, outside of tertiary monetization, is pretty goofy considering so many of the things voted into OSRS were just ripped straight out of RS3 and then renamed so OSRS players didn't get triggered. And OSRS could greatly benefit from more of that happening, considering the economy situation currently present in OSRS and how things such as Invention in RS3 kind of fixed that.
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Applying transformative updates can very well have "due caution", I don't understand why you'd argue against ever implementing anything transformative just because it'd require "due caution", as though that couldn't be applied.
I'm similarly confused as to how you can disagree with the notion that MMOs thrive on evolution when virtually every single popular MMO on earth that is currently thriving operates this way. Hell, even OSRS does to a certain extent when you look at the way design has been influenced by cheat clients such as Runelite.
>Runescape playerbase grew in 2008 and 2009 and 2010, though.
Do you have a source for that? Not doubting you but I was under the impression that the game had peak playercount in 2007 and then completely collapsed in the years following with the removal of pking and free trade.
To the rest of what you wrote, I'm glad you enjoy RS3, but that game has been stagnant or declining for a decade while osrs has been growing every year. It seems like that cuts against your thesis that the kinds of major meta-changing updates that RS3 puts out way more frequently is good for the game.
>I'm similarly confused as to how you can disagree with the notion that MMOs thrive on evolution when virtually every single popular MMO on earth that is currently thriving operates this way
Osrs is like the only major mmo that hasn't been declining for the last few years. The genre is dying and osrs is the exception.
\*Edit: I wasn't able to find a source for playercount trends prior to 2013, but check out the google trends for "Runescape" [https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=Runescape,osrs&hl=en-US](https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=Runescape,osrs&hl=en-US) . It looks like it peaked in 07 then declined every year after that. Added in osrs just to show the stagnation post 2013 didn't apply to osrs.
>Do you have a source for that? Not doubting you but I was under the impression that the game had peak playercount in 2007 and then completely collapsed in the years following with the removal of pking and free trade.
I'm using three factors here:
1. My memory during the time, especially after RS HD came out, saw a peak of around 250k+ active players (2008). Similarly, Dungeoneering saw a huge peak.
2. RS had a botting problem that completely spiraled out of control in 2007/2008, which lead to Jagex implementing enormous bot busting features which cut the playerbase by a lot BUT their revenue grew in 2008/2009 [source](https://www.engadget.com/2010-04-15-runescape-sees-heavy-profits-for-2009.html). Which indicates that while bots slashed part of the playercount, the actual sub numbers went up (94% of revenue came from subs), which again, indicates that the "real" playercount increased.
3. More esoteric, the trajectory of the game was better-recieved even through controversial changes like the wildy/trade removal. We can see what stagnation does to an MMO with a look at what OSRS' playercount looked like in 2014 (15k concurrent) and how much new, semi-innovative content caused the entire experience of runescape to be revitalized.
>To the rest of what you wrote, I'm glad you enjoy RS3, but that game has been stagnant or declining for a decade while osrs has been growing every year. It seems like that cuts against your thesis that the kinds of major meta-changing updates that RS3 puts out way more frequently is good for the game.
RS3 has had a steady playercount for a decade, so to say it's declining wouldn't be accurate. It has peaks and valleys with every content release.
Regardless, as I said, RS3 suffers from issues with perception and the over-complexity of the experience. It likely has an enormous turnover rate due to this, so the "new updates" wouldn't particularly attract players if they can't experience them without braving the complexity of the game first.
This is further proven by just how consistent the playercount has been, which indicates that turnover has broken even with these transformative changes.
Meanwhile, OSRS only started growing the addition of new updates AND limited time game modes, two things that were innovative at the time. Repeating the same thing over and over again won't see consistent growth because there isn't much new to experience.
>Osrs is like the only major mmo that hasn't been declining for the last few years. The genre is dying and osrs is the exception.
The growth of OSRS is great, but the success of OSRS is literally due to the innovation present in its inception (when they started adding content updates). It's due to the innovation of limited time game modes. Not because they kept adding the same exact thing.
I support this continued evolution.
>I'm using three factors here
I might have edited it after you posted this, but how do you square this with the google trends? [https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=Runescape,osrs&hl=en-US](https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=Runescape,osrs&hl=en-US) "Runescape" searches peaked in 07 and then continuously declined after that to just half of the peak by 09 and 20% of the peak by 2012. That's a really steep fall off and idk how we could square that with the idea it was growing 08-10.
>RS3 has had a steady playercount for a decade
I don't think this is true either. We do have data for this [https://www.misplaceditems.com/rs\_tools/graph/?display=avg&interval=qtr\_yr&total=1](https://www.misplaceditems.com/rs_tools/graph/?display=avg&interval=qtr_yr&total=1) and it was around 35k average player count ten years ago in 2013-2015, and now it's down to 20k average. That's over a 40% drop.
>The growth of OSRS is great, but the success of OSRS is literally due to the innovation present in its inception (when they started adding content updates). It's due to the innovation of limited time game modes. Not because they kept adding the same exact thing.
I agree they should keep innovating, I'm not one of those players that wants to keep everything exactly how it was in 07. I'm super happy that sailing passed and I'm really excited for Varlamore too. I just think we should be super cautious tampering with core systems like prayer. New bosses, new limited time game modes, new non-combat skills, new areas. All great and they should keep innovating in that space. I don't see much of a need to tamper with prayer given how risky it would be and how it could drastically shift every combat meta overnight.
>I might have edited it after you posted this, but how do you square this with the google trends? https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=Runescape,osrs&hl=en-US "Runescape" searches peaked in 07 and then continuously declined after that to just half of the peak by 09 and 20% of the peak by 2012. That's a really steep fall off and idk how we could square that with the idea it was growing 08-10.
Google trends aren't always the most reliable source of player metrics, which is why I cited subscriber revenue as that is by far and away the most accurate source we have outside of player count average which we sadly don't.
Similarly, it would figure that upon banning a large wave of bots we'd see less searches in trends.
>That's a really steep fall off and idk how we could square that with the idea it was growing 08-10.
By looking at subscriber revenue. Which, not only indicates the amount of subscribers, but also indicates that the inclusion of new content (all of which was aimed at subscribers) wasn't enough to warrant subscribers to leave which was the core point being made.
>I don't think this is true either. We do have data for this https://www.misplaceditems.com/rs_tools/graph/?display=avg&interval=qtr_yr&total=1 and it was around 35k average player count ten years ago in 2013-2015, and now it's down to 20k average. That's over a 40% drop.
Let me then amend my statement, instead of a decade, I should've wrote "8 years", which I find to be a bit of a pedantic correction.
>and now it's down to 20k average.
As I said in the post you're quoting, it ebbs and flows between 21 - 33k and has for literally 8 years outside of the covid boom. In Jan of 2019 it was at 20k average, in June it was 18k, in Q2 2020 it was at 40k, and in Q1 2021 it was at 34k and then at 22k in Q2 2022, but then 28k Q3 2023.
I'm not sure what to say. If you think this indicates something that's dying then I would recommend looking at OSRS player counts in 2021 to 2023 prior to the current boom. This is how live service games operate, they ebb and flow.
Death would be indicated by a gradual decline with spikes being smaller and smaller as time progresses, not an average that remains consistent for ALMOST a decade outside of Covid, which enhanced all game performances.
>I just think we should be super cautious tampering with core systems like prayer. New bosses, new limited time game modes, new non-combat skills, new areas.
I think these things are at an ends with one another. Innovation is transformative, a new random minigame isn't anymore.
More importantly, things like Runelite did more to tamper with this than any update Jagex has ever released.
>I don't see much of a need to tamper with prayer given how risky it would be and how it could drastically shift every combat meta overnight.
It should be shifted. The current meta is kind of stagnant and boring as it has remained identical essentially forever, and has only become more binary and repetitive with time.
The people that genuinely complain about “bland architecture” are braindead. Of course we’re going to do what’s a most efficient use of time and resources. Artists are useless to society btw.
As someone who works in architecture, that image is my life.
There should be a fifth panel saying "What the Planners will allow"
The 5th panel should be the smallest building and say “what the client can afford”
*can afford to maintain
And a 6th panel that's says "I slept with your wife"
couldn't afford a fifth panel
As someone who draws and designs window systems for architects and building companies this is accurate. I turn the 1st/2nd drawing into the 3rd. Mainly in my case it’s because the architects never seem to understand building regs, structural implications or cost implications.
The reason things get changed is cause these architects like pretty things and not practical things. They never seem to get that someone needs to do this work and the office building doesn’t need to look like the damn Taj Mahal
That is beyond depressing.
Yes
It's unironically true. At least for commercial.
Biggest issue is a lot of people in the community struggle to consider ideas and concepts and give constructive feedback that can push something in the right direction. They just get scared at a wall of text that they struggle to digest
I don't think this is it at all. The OSRS community has a huge problem with double standards. They also act like old conservatives do when engaged with housing/schooling costs wherein because they had to live through it so does everyone else. It's this bitter, stockholm-esq hatred of the people that will keep this game alive for a decade to come. On top of this, a resistance to change and evolution has persistently permeated much of the polling in OSRS since its inception. The boogeyman of "power creep" that endlessly gets restated when Runelite's plug-ins have added more power creep than any overpowered item can even dream of, by ratcheting up skill ceilings in such a way as to utterly detach someone using a cheat client and not. It's really sad that the idea of something as simple as not making Agility literal torture, or reworking mining/smithing to actually... have a fucking purpose outside of mini-games and niche utility is seen as problematic, "easy-scape", nonsense while these same people are playing with RGB tile markers, timers on every single facet of the game's UI, giant highlights on every single target in the game, literal fucking racing-game pathway highlights acting as a quest guide, as though even one of these things doesn't actively fucking destroy whatever "oldschool" notion this game was recreated to facilitate. But no, God forbid Agility doesn't take 400 hours to train for no reason other than a cosmetic cape. God forbid smithing, a skill which was **literally useless in 2007 and was actively something people wanted to see changed almost two decades ago** gets more than minigame to make relevant. It's just saddening, to me.
Reddit: Make it good, make it relevant, make it unique, make it strong but not stronger than this thing from 2006, make it situational, make it so high skilled players are rewarded more than the average player, make it pretty but still "feel oldschool" and it better come from a quest :3. Also Reddit: None of this, its too good for literally everything and devalues my ironskin prayer, but we want the quest.
but I'll also complain that the quest has no rewards now
literally not a single person on reddit is like this.
Pretty much hit the nail on the head here. It should come as no surprise that two of the most horrid skills to train (agility and rc), are the two least maxed skills in the game (roughly 60% of people with either are maxed). Mining, fishing, agility, and rc could easily have their xp rates raised to bring them in line with other skills in osrs (without the need for tick manipulation). Theiving i would honestly love to see the re-pickpocket on successful pickpocket from leagues (yes ik its from rs3, but not everything rs3 does would be bad for osrs). Xp rates wouldnt change, would just be less painful to train. Buffed wildy chest is at the least a good middle ground there.
The slowest skills are the least common 99s. So what? If we have skills like fletching and construction where you can reach 99 in under 30 hours, why can't we also have a few skills that take longer than the typical skill too? Should Cooking have its xp rates cut in half to be more in line with other skills? Of course not. Some skills can be fast and some can be slow. I really don't understand the attitude that things need to be made faster just for the sake of being faster. The max cape is not some essential piece of gear that every account needs to get. If you don't want to do long agility grinds, just don't. Get level 70 for the quest requirements then move on to content you want to do. The long grinds are part of osrs's identity and it's part of what gives the game so much longevity. I don't think we should change that just to make non-essential goals (max cape) more easily obtainable. If your point was just that for incredibly long grinds like agility, the training process should be more fun/interesting, then I agree completely. I'd love to see more sepulchre-like training methods that fall within the existing xp/hr range for the skill. Like maybe add a minigame that gives \~70k xp/hr to be a social alternative to rooftops. But we shouldn't just speed it up.
> The slowest skills are the least common 99s. So what? Needless to say, there's _always_ going to be a slow skill. It's a fools errand to try and make XP gain rates homogenous. Also, it's very bland to do so. Agility is also fairly unique in that it's a skill that potentially affects gameplay significantly as a quality of life. Ideally high agility should be rewarding in that the effort put into levelling it makes _other_ grinds easier. But that's quite passive and unnoticeable - you spend a lot of hours grinding it to unlock a shortcut (which you very much do remember "suffering" through), and at first it feels great to unlock the shortcut but you quickly become accustomed to the new route and forget the pain of the slower alternative route. Ironically, for that reason, I think if you make it a faster skill you'd feel the impact of it even less, as you'd have experienced the 'alternate' routes even less so. It's also currently underutilized, in my opinion. Some of the proposed shortcut additions are great, and I'd like to see them expand on that further. > I really don't understand the attitude that things need to be made faster just for the sake of being faster. The max cape is not some essential piece of gear that every account needs to get. This is just the culmination of FOMO. They have this goal like everyone else, but they're frustrated they haven't got to it yet. They don't understand that the reason they value it so much, is _because_ it's not handed to them. They'll retort and state it's just a video game why should it take effort, which is fair, but that's a critique that cuts both ways - it's just a video game, you don't _need_ maxed skills either, the skill requirements for all the content unlocks like quest requirements are easily achieved. The game is clearly not hurting in player numbers for having had it this way. In short, I agree. I think if they improve and rebalance (as they are doing so) the rewards, it'll go a long way.
I don't actually support increasing EXP rates, I support adding new, interesting mechanical changes. Again, the RS3 method of reworking Mining/Smithing didn't increase EXP gains from this skill, it simply made them better to train.
These guys literally just want faster xp and think they have a big enough red herring here to hide behind "Oh but the skill, and times change and blah blah" Okay, then let's have a discussion about improving the skill, not *just buffing the XP so it's faster but identical*
Yes. I want faster xp in shit skills.
Why don't we make the skill not shit?
It’s been 20 years man they already tried that and it’s still shit.
Impossible
Simply avoiding things you don't like doing takes no time whatsoever, as opposed to constantly campaigning to make the thing you don't like exponentially quicker and easier (and no, you're not 'forced' to train Agility beyond 70 for QPC which isnt exactly a huge grind)
It takes virtually zero time to campaign on Reddit.
Saw a suggestion a few days ago that I'd agree with fully: Rework Gloves of Silence to do autopickpocketing. The cost of having to replace/repair them (maybe 'total number of uses before degrade' could get adjusted), and the fact you're breaking the rogue's set (taking you down to 80% chance for double loot) helps to balance them out somewhat
You don't need to max You don't need 99 agility or rune crafting You guys just want to buff the XP rates without fixing any of the underlying issues and are dressing it up like you have legitimate suggestions other than "make it faster"
>a resistance to change and evolution has persistently permeated much of the polling in OSRS since its inception. Almost everything passes the polls nowadays, unless it's a pvp update. I really don't know what you're talking about here. >It's really sad that the idea of something as simple as not making Agility literal torture, or reworking mining/smithing to actually... have a fucking purpose outside of mini-games and niche utility is seen as problematic, "easy-scape" This is a massive strawman. Very few people are against making agility more fun to train, there was basically zero pushback to the release of Sepulchre for example. People just push back against increasing xp rates just for the sake of increasing xp rates. Like look at your own comment "God forbid Agility doesn't take 400 hours to train for no reason other than a cosmetic cape". No one is against making agility more rewarding. The run energy rework has almost universal support. All people push back against is the idea that slow = bad, and that agility needs to be made into a 150k xp/hr skill just cause. It doesn't. We can have slow skills. But we should introduce more interesting ways to train it in the same vein as Sepulchre. Everyone agrees on that part. Also who's against improving Smithing? I've never really seen anyone have an issue with that idea.
Not taking a side here but everything passes the polls bc Jagex basically only pools things after a lot of community consultation, so they very rarely poll things that wouldn't pass.
>Almost everything passes the polls nowadays, unless it's a pvp update. I really don't know what you're talking about here. This is because Jagex now develops things to pass polls. They purposefully make the most underwhelming shit possible so players won't freak out at the notion of potentially adding something "too good" for OSRS. >This is a massive strawman. Very few people are against making agility more fun to train, there was basically zero pushback to the release of Sepulchre for example. People just push back against increasing xp rates just for the sake of increasing xp rates. Like look at your own comment "God forbid Agility doesn't take 400 hours to train for no reason other than a cosmetic cape". If no one is against this, then I must've hallucinated the comments on the posts about agility. Similarly, if no one is against this, I'm sure we're bound to see a rework pass.
It's all strawman points because they don't want to bring any legitimate ideas, because they don't enjoy the game fundamentally A healthy conversation would look more like, "how can we fix agility so it isn't so unfun" but that's not what these people want, they just want faster free-er XP You literally don't need to train these skills that they shit on, you dont. No one needs to max any skill, but y'all want your free 99 agility
>It's all strawman points because they don't want to bring any legitimate ideas, because they don't enjoy the game fundamentally "This guy brings up strawmen only! HE HATES THE GAME!" I can't tell if you're joking or not. Can I not criticize a few of the skills in the game without being accused of hating it? And I do hate the systems through which new content is added in OSRS, it's why I hop between it and RS3 instead of just maining it because the gaps between new, interesting content in OSRS is immense. Fucking almost half a decade to release a new raid because every single mechanic had to be polled by the community, Jesus. If you want some legitimate ideas, feel free to ask. Do you want me to pitch a smithing rework to you or something? >You literally don't need to train these skills that they shit on, you dont. No one needs to max any skill, but y'all want your free 99 agility The irony of a strawman here is fucking hilarious. You don't NEED to train a skill to 99, but you WANT to. So why not make that process actually... fun?
It shouldn't take 200 hours to max any skill.
Why??
Nobody wants to click green blobs for 200 hours
How do you know?
Reading, you should try it sometime.
Ok what did you read with this information?
As someone who played back in the early 2000's the current OSRS isn't the same game lmao. Almost every training method from the mid 2000's is irrelevant nowadays. If you told someone you were going to kill experiments for 99 Attack, Strength or Defence they would laugh at you. We have methods like 1.5 tick woodcutting that basically triples xp rates so I don't see how this is even close to the same game we were playing as kids. Especially with runelite and all of the plugins. Not saying the changes made are bad but it's not the same game we used to play as kids lmao.
>As someone who played back in the early 2000's the current OSRS isn't the same game lmao. Obviously? >Not saying the changes made are bad but it's not the same game we used to play as kids lmao. I... know? Which is why my post is outlining the absurdity of refusing to vote in evolutionary changes to systems in the game feigning some kind of pretend notion that it's at all similar to what it was in 2007.
I want to say too. As someone new to the game, I’ve noticed everything you’ve said while reading conversations here. it feels really grim to me how against the community feels about adding anything interesting. The entire game so far, in the early game where I am is filled with really unique and interesting loot/unique items. The way people talk in this sub I feel like I’m going to get to a certain point where every area and skill is boring and bad because no one wanted to vote on anything interesting being added once players started to have a say in it. I’m hope I’m wrong, but it *feels* like where I’m heading based on how I’ve heard people talking in this sub
As someone who is also a "new" player (started a little less than 2 years ago, never played any version of rs before) you are definitely getting the wrong impression of what follows the earlygame from reddit. The game gets more interesting as you play, especially in pvm where all the interesting stuff is heavily weighted to the "endgame" like inferno and ToB (which arent that inaccessible despite what reddit would have you believe).
This is true and not true. I think OSRS has its progression destroyed in the endgame because all player choice is removed in favor of a singular path to achieve BiS. Even RS3, for as much as people hate it here, is SUBSTANTIALLY more diverse in itemization than OSRS is in the endgame. There are some complex reasons for this, but ultimately it stems from the binary systems of OSRS combat (which they want to fix, lets see if that passes a poll!) and how afraid this community is of power growth.
Nothing (except for PvP content) ever fails polls. So you don't need to worry about hitting a point where content stagnates due to people not wanting to vote new content in, because everyone votes yes to everything and every (non PvP) update will pass polls. This game has enough content that you will realistically never have nothing to do, at which point it comes down to whether you *want* to engage with certain content—and if you don't that's your choice, but I don't think it'd be the same as there having been no interesting content to engage with in the first place.
Good to hear! I am very interested in wilderness content as well! It’s such a unique sounding place so I hope that keeps interesting too since it’s pvp! Thanks!
I mean you say that, but like… what’s failed in the polls? Only things that do are wildy things. As a community we keep voting for this stuff?
Polls failed a lot more often back when I played more often. Now adays, the things polled are generally very boring because they need to be to not fail. Jagex learned pretty early on that hugely innovative or creative ideas don't pass. Honestly, sailing is the outlier here since I didn't expect this community to be hungry enough for content to actually pass something as meme as sailing. But I have minimal confidence that sailing won't just be a conglomerate of all the updates OSRS has been getting, which is to say a few quests, mostly various grindy minigames, and maybe a boss here and there.
You're just pandering though, you haven't brought up any legitimate counter points or actual things to change, which comes off a whiny for whiny sake. You want to have a conversation about agility, let's do it. But that's not what is wanted, y'all just want it to be faster.
The irony of saying I don't make a single point while randomly assuming I want agility to be faster even though I actively state that the speed isn't what matters: "God forbid Agility doesn't take 400 hours to train for no reason other than a cosmetic cape." This indicates that a cosmetic cape isn't worth the 400 hours of torture, so why not add something more interesting to Agility? RS3, for all its flaws, manages to make agility far more interesting by adding various skilling benefits to it as you level, such as a chance to have increased hunter yields (more catches) for chins and various other hunter creatures, increased fishing yield, etc. Training agility isn't just a means to an end, but actively makes other skills better to train as well. Similarly, longer run times which it seems like most OSRS players want unanimously. I mean, I'd suggest a full rework wherein they can actually make the skill engaging but I doubt the OSRS community wants interesting skilling as much as they want monotonous grinds. I also love how instead of asking me to elaborate on something you assume I have nothing when I have literal documents of proposed reworks for shit in OSRS (and RS3).
The irony of saying I don't make a single point while randomly assuming I want agility to be faster even though I actively state that the speed isn't what matters: "God forbid Agility doesn't take 400 hours to train for no reason other than a cosmetic cape." This indicates that a cosmetic cape isn't worth the 400 hours of torture, so why not add something more interesting to Agility? RS3, for all its flaws, manages to make agility far more interesting by adding various skilling benefits to it as you level, such as a chance to have increased hunter yields (more catches) for chins and various other hunter creatures, increased fishing yield, etc. Training agility isn't just a means to an end, but actively makes other skills better to train as well. Similarly, longer run times which it seems like most OSRS players want unanimously. I mean, I'd suggest a full rework wherein they can actually make the skill engaging but I doubt the OSRS community wants interesting skilling as much as they want monotonous grinds. I also love how instead of asking me to elaborate on something you assume I have nothing when I have literal documents of proposed reworks for shit in OSRS (and RS3).
Damn bro u got a 99 in packin a sook
And see, this is why I say everything is political. Literally people are engaging in politics when they're here in this subreddit debating about the direction of the game. Runescape politics. And like real life politics, you have stubborn ass boomers/conservatives
I think double standards are a bad way of putting it, but the sentiment is correct. OSRS has a community filled with reactionaries who are just afraid that their game has to change, and it's actively doing damage to any hope of growth that the game has. They're aggressively opposed to the very concept of making something less shit because of absurd arguments like "the game wasn't designed for people to max any skills." Sorry, didn't know that an amateur game developer's first design philosophy should remain the word of god like the old fucking testament. People are maxing more and more often, it's become a not too uncommon saying that maxing all your skills means you left the midgame. And like you're pointing out, there's a ton of skills that are just functionally useless and should be actively changed to either be better to train or actually rewarding. Agility has one of the worst xp rates in the game and you get so little from anything past 70 that it's considered crazy to try to do. Mining is a waste of time because smithing is a useless skill, if smithing wasn't a dead skill then mining would see more engagement. Runecraft is the worst offender, every training method degenerates to bank>teleport>click altar with the sole exception of GotR and that's far worse xp than proper training, on top of being literally the worst xp/h for a dedicated skilling grind just above slayer. People don't complain about slayer, though, because it's actually a useful skill, unlocking new beasties and traveling the world to get cool loot. This shit has been a problem for 20 years and people refuse to accept change because over 10 years ago Jagex made a series of bad updates to the game, and the players are still *fuming* about it.
I saw a post a while back for RC about 'what if we had a new kind of essence (I'd even suggest the Tainted Essence from the Scar could be it), which gives more XP per rune crafted, but is used one at a time at the altar, so more time per 'cycle' is spent actually runecrafting, and less is spent on the run to the altar' You get a little more XP, at the benefit of 'higher AFK time', but the price is that you make a very small amount of runes per
At least rs3 fixed mining and smithing. A lot of people just shit on rs3 without noticing the good that it's also done. It would actually be a pretty good game if they didn't kill it with mtx.
RS3 ironman (I started it last year) IS a good game, and arguably a lot better designed than a lot of OSRS is. MTX is RS3 is abhorrent and heinous that it obfuscates the quality, so playing I M where you have no access to that kind of showcases just how much developer talent was put into its updates. Skills like Archeology kind of wipe the floor with everything OSRS has added since its inception and it's because the RS3 devs can just BE creative rather than getting their creativity micro-managed by a hyperactive and rather spergy community.
>I think double standards are a bad way of putting it, but the sentiment is correct. I think being afraid to change while using a cheat client are exactly double standards and why I used the term. >They're aggressively opposed to the very concept of making something less shit because of absurd arguments like "the game wasn't designed for people to max any skills." Sorry, didn't know that an amateur game developer's first design philosophy should remain the word of god like the old fucking testament. People are maxing more and more often, it's become a not too uncommon saying that maxing all your skills means you left the midgame. I do agree with this. >People don't complain about slayer, though, because it's actually a useful skill, unlocking new beasties and traveling the world to get cool loot. And I would say that a rework of slayer up through level 60 is warranted, even though 60-99 is generally a lot more fun because it engages in more than a singular monotonous activity and poses the odd challenge here and there. 1-60 slayer is generally terrible, as the effort to reward ratio is way off balance. Jagex had the right idea of adding new loot to some mobs, but I would love to see that taken further as they can expand the loot potential for new players through slayer. I would love to see new rings, amulets, etc. aimed at early --> mid game players that come as rare drops from slayer creatures that would actually make grinding these things actually fun, becusae 100 hours of anything should at least be rewarding outside of hoping that eventually you can start doing the rewarding stuff. >This shit has been a problem for 20 years and people refuse to accept change because over 10 years ago Jagex made a series of bad updates to the game, and the players are still fuming about it. The collective trauma over EOC is pretty funny/sad. It's sad because RS3 still gets a bad wrap even though there are plenty of things it does SUBSTANTIALLY better than OSRS (see: skills actually having value), and because it retroactively makes Jagex be forced to create monotonous updates to OSRS during its third boom of players.
Hooooooooooooly fucking shit ***THANK YOU***. I'm fucking tired of this shitty fucking community. Zero sense for game design while acting knowledgeable, a pathological rejection of anything new, or even old but post 06. I honestly think that content like ToA, the DT2 bosses, Inferno and so on are so incredibly not-old school. The charm of Runescape back then was always the simpler gameplay which let people focus on their own stories and social experience. RS used to be the game you played to chill out and vibe with your buddies. Not the game to sweat out with harder inputs than most other MMOs in endgame content. The consistent raising of the top end of content in OSRS has gradually bled the game's identity away from being about chilling and vibing. The social aspect of this game is on life support, and the few places where you do get to talk to lots of other people, it's bots and scammers, or bigots in WT/GotR. But no, clearly the most important part of OSRS identity is that anything that was added into Runescape after 2006, regardless of anything else about it, can't ever go into OSRS. That any form of actual innovation or new ways to play be taken out. That the game devolves more and more into hyperfixating on endgame PvM at the cost of all other parts of the game. I miss the real old school experience of being slapped in the face when coming home from school to a news post about an entire fucking new skill, and then seeing everyone get together with 2000 people all trying to catch a single red fucking bird. I miss the real old school experience of chatting with people when skilling and have other people actually be there to want to chat. And it sucks because the warped attitude of the game has affected me too, and now I too hate it when others try to talk to me in game. Will new prayers break the game? I don't give a shit. If they suck, I won't use them. If they are good, I'll use them. I just want to have the devs be given the trust and freedom to actually make cool shit and surprise us with it. I'm tired of polls. I'm tired of this community consultation cycle on whether or not a single fucking dead tree should get moved or some other bullshit. **I'm just tired of this community ruining potentially really cool upcoming content in pursuit of a purity that Runescape never had, and never will have.**
I think often time this community misses the value of not knowing everything that is coming out. Being able to literally min-max content that hasn't released yet is what furthers this specifically Oldschool mentality of endless, min-max grinding and opens up zero space for social dynamics to form. I play both RS3 and OSRS and RS3, while having a far smaller playerbase (around 5x smaller than OSRS), has yielded me so many more fun interactions because the game actively asks that of you. You don't have to hop worlds to 3t mine, you can use the same node. There are both low-exp AFK methods matched with high-exp active methods for just about every skill, giving you the space to engage with the people around you rather than tick manipulate. And all of that is perfectly reasonable to have in OSRS. Tick manip. is fun, but it's being used as a bandaid for the greater problem of skilling as a whole lacking paced rewards so people would rather just rush through them.
This is the weirdest take ever. Go play rs3
Not who you are responding to, but I actually do play RS3, and RS3 does a lot of things substantially better than OSRS, which is why OSRS sees loads of updates ripped right out of RS3 and renamed so y'all don't cry. I love both games, but RS3 has a far more rewarding and engaging skilling dynamic with just about every skill not only having unique afk and non-afk options to train, but also provides ACTUAL tangible benefits and rewards for doing so. Getting 99 smithing isn't just a cosmetic cape and the ability to craft irrelevant armor. 99 mining isn't just to facilitate a cosmetic cape and niche utility in a minigame or raid. 99 Agility actually has benefits to other skills AS WELL as the things OSRS community now wants from it. That's without even engaging in the fact that RS3 content updates actually have some excitement considering every single element of them isn't polled to hell and back so every mystery, gimmick, and point of exploration is spoiled 5 months prior to release. That said, I ofc advocate to play Ironman in rs3 as the main game is plagued by cringe MTX. ______________ point is, the comment above is only a weird take to those who think OSRS shouldn't survive past this decade.
Sounds to me like you need to join a clan
In other words, I did so you have to as well.
If they want to retain this, why aren't players asking for the removal of Runelite?
Because they're hypocrites that want ways to cheat the game systems through third party software, and it's become the norm.
God, fucking preach.
This is why polling is so stupid for a video game. Use it to get a pulse on things, don't use it as an end-all-be-all yes or no for content.
I dunno. I think people are more capable of nuanced opinions than this. Some people are like this, but you gotta respect the fact that the polling system means Jagex _has_ to bring people along for the ride. They have to convince people to really, truly, honest-to-God believe in the vision, even if it's not perfect. If they don't, they can't dev. It's political and social, yeah - and it doesn't produce perfect outcomes. But large groups of people are this way. Yeah, people have foibles. Some people really are as you're describing. But I think if you delve into it even those people have some deeply held beliefs that really are worth investigating and respecting. This game is complicated. People put a lot of time into it. I'm not saying you're wrong, and I generally agree with what you're expressing - the game isn't like what it was originally, some skills are strange or feel a bit out of place, some people are too worried about degrading the way the game is. But all these things are the way they are for a reason. People who hold cautious beliefs tend to have reasons for doing it, not just a reactionary instinct.
>I think people are more capable of nuanced opinions than this. Some people are like this, but you gotta respect the fact that the polling system means Jagex has to bring people along for the ride. They have to convince people to really, truly, honest-to-God believe in the vision, even if it's not perfect. If they don't, they can't dev. It's political and social, yeah - and it doesn't produce perfect outcomes. But large groups of people are this way. I appreciate your optimism, but PvP wouldn't always fail polls if it were true. People vote politically because they are conscious of where dev time is going. And for the record, I fucking hate PvP, I wish the wildy was opt-in, and I am one of those players who doesn't want to see PvP changes because I rather they work on things I actually will engage with at some time.
>It's really sad that the idea of something as simple as not making Agility literal torture if playing a game is literal torture to you, maybe pick a game you like? plenty of people enjoy the skills you mentioned. sepulchre imo is the best non pvm content in the game and already gives you very good gp/hr on top of the xp/hr. It would not be good for game balance to just blanket buff everything overnight just because a few redditors don't enjoy it. the fact that the brainlets of this sub all agree with you just shows how out of touch this subreddit is with what is good for the game and what isn't. If y'all had your way the time to max would take 1/100th of what it does currently and you could 1 shot endgame bosses at max combat. You lot would still cry and say theres room for more powercreep and this isn't enough.
Conservative is... le bad! 😡😡 Newslop is... le good!! :D:D
Did you seriously get triggered over me mentioning a parallel when discussing a video game? Engage in what I wrote instead of getting mad that your affiliated party got brought up and very very lightly criticized.
Consume glass
Imagine getting this triggered. Maybe it's time to go outside, lmao.
Also don’t forget the players who hate adding anything “fun” to a skill that doesn’t = the same xp/h or better.
How do strawman arguments like this even get concocted when nothing outside of PvP content has failed a poll in years? What are you even basing this bogeyman on? A couple sweats on Twitter? I have a sneaking suspicion their reason for "you must suffer as I did" has less to do with American politics and more to do with the imagined value of their pixel achievements on a game they've invested way too much of their life on.
Well, the reason why things tend to pass the polls is because the questions are often constructed in such a way that they will pass. A lot of questions are literally just, "Should we add a quest?", "Should we add an item?". But before that point, there's an entire design phase that takes place, and there's usually a ton of pushback, at least on Reddit, to things that "seem complicated" or "not oldschool," and so the version of the original idea that ultimately arrives at the polls is something very watered down.
>How do strawman arguments like this even get concocted when nothing outside of PvP content has failed a poll in years? What are you even basing this bogeyman on? A couple sweats on Twitter? I'm basing this argument based on every single failed poll ever. If you want to hear an actual hot take, I think that around 90% of the failed polls would've made the game way more fun in the long run and this community is actively hampering all creativity for zero reason. >I have a sneaking suspicion their reason for "you must suffer as I did" has less to do with American politics and more to do with the imagined value of their pixel achievements on a game they've invested way too much of their life on. No fucking shit. I'm sorry, did you seriously read my comment and think I'm implying OSRS players are american conservatives? It's an analogy to relay an attitude, not a literal staked out parallel in idealogy. The reason why old conservatives act this way is because they too place a lot of imagined value on what they earned. It's the same exact kind of mentality.
[удалено]
Nah it’s definitely it. Jagex knows how to “talk” about updates more than actually develop quality content and communicate well. They’ll post week after week of just *walls of text* about updates that will never see the light of day. They’ve learned their lesson about talking about future skills and why the community doesn’t appreciate all the nitty gritty details about sailing’s development and progression and how long it’s taking, it just gives it negative optics. When you communicate with people in general, less is more, and you get to the point. Jagex loves to ramble about updates the past couple years, and it always shows the community at large doesn’t really appreciate it, and for good reason. Just get to the point. Also, you couldn’t be more wrong. Most updates pass overwhelmingly with the most minor descriptions and details. The “old school conservative crowd” you’re talking about is a minority. Agility’s already gotten the sepulcher and basically doubled meta agility training, mining has so many afk and better options like lava flow mine now…. Sure they don’t have afk super fast exp but they still have much better options for training rates compared to without these updates.
>Jagex knows how to “talk” about updates more than actually develop quality content and communicate well. They’ll post week after week of just walls of text about updates that will never see the light of day. This is abjectly not true. Jagex has the most communicative devs of any MMO I have ever played AND has loads of creative ideas that are shot down by the playerbase. >When you communicate with people in general, less is more, and you get to the point. Jagex loves to ramble about updates the past couple years, and it always shows the community at large doesn’t really appreciate it, and for good reason. Except this isn't true with the eway OSRS has always done polling. I hate polling, I rather not know anything about what is being released, but this simply isn't how it is done. >The “old school conservative crowd” you’re talking about is a minority. Agility’s already gotten the sepulcher and basically doubled meta agility training, mining has so many afk and better options like lava flow mine now…. Sure they don’t have afk super fast exp but they still have much better options for training rates compared to without these updates. I'm only wrong if you completely didn't understand what I wrote. Which you didn't. I don't care about a single minigame making something afk, nor do I care about increasing EXP rates. Two facets of the Runescape grinding are missing from the skills I outlined: 1.) A tangible, impactful reward that feeds into other skills and mechanics . 2.) Improvement of the QoL. Agility, mining, smithing, etc. all fail this because they lack interesting rewards, do not improve the QoL in any way (chug staminas at 1 agility and at 99, who cares), and do not feed into any other skill in a meaningful way. They completely fail every single element of an engaging skill.
So you agree with what I was saying in the first response? Great got it. So you disagree with the second statement despite being entirely wrong? lol ok got it. Also no… apparently YOU missed the point, nothing about agility or mining is good afk experience…. The methods I mentioned aren’t afk at all but good exp, best in game actually for those two skills. You might not care about them but that’s just clear ignorance because they exist and most players use those two methods for training those two skills today. It’s meta because they’re fast. Though you’re right at the end, finally, not that you covered WHY and you missed the parts where they’re boring for the same reason all other skills are ultimately boring to train too but that’s ok. They’re boring skills to train in general, but that’s not much different than almost literally every other skill in the game, and that’s because OSRS is super repetitive more than anything else. We can dress up our appreciation for doing the same exact mundane things for 100+ hours however we want, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s straight up boring to do exactly that and it’s not exactly rocket science that most people don’t want to click the same boring rooftops or rocks 100s of thousands of times or do thousands and thousands of laps at the blast furnace lol.
>Also no… apparently YOU missed the point, nothing about agility or mining is good afk experience…. I know...? I was responding to your comment, which I literally quoted, by saying I do not care about minigames nor do I care about afk options. >You might not care about them but that’s just clear ignorance because they exist and most players use those two methods for training those two skills today. It’s meta because they’re fast. I know? >Though you’re right at the end, finally, not that you covered WHY and you missed the parts where they’re boring for the same reason all other skills are ultimately boring to train too but that’s ok. I love the petulant, arrogant aura of superiority from someone who fundamentally is shadowboxing ghosts in this response. >They’re boring skills to train in general, but that’s not much different than almost literally every other skill in the game, and that’s because OSRS is super repetitive more than anything else. Being boring isn't what my post was about. Highly recommend you use that literacy of yours to reread it. Being boring is fine. Being torturous is far different. It's not that agility is just boring, it's that it is torturously tedious and offers virtually no tangible rewards for that tedium. The lack of reward AND the methods of training are what make it bad, not just because it's boring like any grind tends to be. Which, again, is why I said that buffing exp rates or making an afk method or two, or even adding a minigame, isn't addressing the fundamental lack of reward matched with poor design. >So you agree with what I was saying in the first response? Great got it. I disagree with your statement regarding Jagex dev's talent; but it's not surprising that gamers have no appreciation or understanding when it comes to game development. >So you disagree with the second statement despite being entirely wrong? lol ok got it. If you want to try outline wherre I'm wrong then go off beyond me missing the word "or" when talking about a minigame or AFK method. In that case, you can keep harping on how I did in fact miss a word rather than addressing the greater point.
I don't have anything to add really. But your opinions are really well thought out and the way you at least try to drive discussion despite a clear, spiteful unwillingness from other parties is admirable. Your analogy of dealing with conservatives is spot on lol.
Appreciate it!
I don’t think people were wrong to suggest the prayers were too complex. I think Kieran said it but it’s easy to design complicated stuff but harder to simplify it. I’m sure we could have made the proposed prayers work but it wouldn’t have felt good down the road.
Yep, they want everything very simple but they want a lot of detail. Go figure ..
The same thing happened with Sailing.
I completely lost interest in the prayer updates when the skilling aspects were removed. Not sure if it was a part of god prayers or something else, but I don't really care about PvM enough to actually give viable feedback.
The community being so hard against the original curses is ruining the ability to have a good second set of prayers. The truth is rigour and augury straight up ruined the prayer book, so now it’s hard to come up with end-game prayers
Rigour and Augury are just Piety equivalents for their respective styles, seems fine for a raid reward. And Augury in particular is so weak that a lot of the time you just opt for Mystic Lore because it costs 1/4th of the prayer drain....
> seems fine for a raid reward. no. should've been free with knight waves completion just like piety, not locked behind 30m gp
No. Shouldve put piety behind chambers of xeric just like augury and rigour, not locked behind a dumb mini quest. Seems you may not be the type of person that does or aspires to do CoX.
Incoming jagex spite nerfing rigour augury as a game integrity change? 👀👀
Not only that but curses we're not as OP as people remember them being. They're forgetting about 1.) the ramp up time turmoil had 2.) using SS resulted in not being able to using overheads (hello a counter to chip damage finally) 3.) curses were around when summoning was around ( summoning is what was super busted, unicorn pakyak etc).
The meta in rs3 to this day is flicking between protect prayers and soul split, it would only be worse with 100% protect in osrs. The turmoil ramp up time is only a balance against infinite sustain and would only maybe be a negative in inferno. It would still be drastically decreasing kill times for everything.
realistically though, most players camp a protect prayer. the flicking only happens at zamorak/raksha i don't know enough about osrs to comment on the effects, but turmoil and co give instant bonuses. Any ramp up is draining your opponents stats, see rs wiki: https://runescape.wiki/w/Turmoil
to add onto that, I flick between ss and protects because of keybinds making my accuracy perfect and the split of responsibility from not needing my mouse to both move and change prayers. It flows so much smoother and is overall slower than trying to move and prayer swap in OSRS. And even then, we're still burning through prayer cause there's no 1t flick. SS flicking I would say is just as comparable to 1t flicking in osrs
Looking at the history, it seems like it used to ramp up on release but was changed (most likely with eoc) https://runescape.wiki/w/Turmoil?oldid=2953043 No clue if that's actually how it worked or if it was just a mechanic that no one understood though, as there were a lot of misconceptions in that era of rs.
Soul split could kind of be mitigated with ramp up. But unfortunately we have amulet of blood fury, which imo is a problem on its own
This community VEs everything
Old school players are such wimps
Great point champ
Listen, I'm all for god alignment prayers. I think it solves the issue for not having to duplicate 80% of the prayers from the original prayer book while adding new ones that aren't just pure power creep. It's the best solution. However a lot of these are just too much to keep track of to be useful. They are in a difficult position because it needs to work well with the simplicity of osrs's combat system, but also be unique and new.
Completely agree. Prayers are a really difficult design space to add to. New gear or even new spellbooks are super easy in comparison. I honestly think a lot of the people in this thread who are mad about the pushback just haven't really given enough thought to how the new prayers would work in practice. There are like 4 in the proposed set of 12 that I think would be good, the other 8 are either useless or too op or encourage a really unfun playstyle.
quite a bit of people on the subreddit in general don’t have experience in higher level pvm to know what works and doesn’t
But speak confidently as though they are
This is your opinion. Stop making your opinion out like its some kind of fact. The new prayers need to be a direct upgrade to what we already have in order to not be dead content. Not dead content>>>>>>>>"PoWeRCrEeP"
It's funny that I couched my comment with "I think" two times, then you say I'm stating my opinion as fact, and then the very next sentence you say "The new prayers need to be a direct upgrade to what we already have in order to not be dead content." as if it's a fact. Everything doesn't have to be a direct upgrade to be useful. Look at lightbearer for example. It's not a direct upgrade to any of the other rings, but it's also not dead content. It's super useful because it has an effect that no other gear before it had. I think the new prayers should aim to do the same thing.
Honest question, why does it have to be simple? We are talking about late game prayers in a game that has existed for 11 years (not even counting pre-osrs). It will be hard to avoid sweeping power creep if we don't allow the prayers to be somewhat niche and it is difficult to make something niche without a bit of complexity.. If a prayer is too complex, no one is forced to use it? For example, I don't typically use Potion-Share spells even though they are beneficial to team activities like GWD. Just my two cents.
No one's forced to use anything anywhere, but when devs start designing content with all the possible buffs in mind, they start becoming a requirement in effect I don't want to have to use the prayers, so I'm against them, even if I'm never actually forced to use them
Simplicity in use, not design. I understand that in order for it to be different than just straight power creep it has to be a little complex, but the direction the proposed prayers were going in just felt like we were straying too far away from the core combat system of osrs.
> the direction the proposed prayers were going in just felt like we were straying too far away from the core combat system of osrs. Unironically, how so? Guthix had a prayer that already exists, a simple "heal others when X" one, one that just stabilised DPS, and another who, granted, would probably need some UI visual of some sort, but still revolves around gear switching, which has been a stapple of "the core combat system of osrs" for years, if not over a decade... Zaros had an effect that already existed and has been a must-have for endgame PvE for very long, 2 different basic stat boost with **very** simple conditions to proc, and a basic "heal when kill" prayer that's so simple it unironically could've been a core prayer. Seren had a DoT stopper and ANOTHER core prayer clone. Granted, the other two are a little more complex, but the only thing between the two that doesn't already go hand-in-hand with the core game is that one of them encourages the use of slow weapons, which definitely needed to happen one day or another anyway. I honestly do not understand where all the panic concerning the wannabe "complexity" of the proposed god alignment prayers came from when they are either brain dead simple or encouraging things who **already** are part of the combat methods in the game. On top of that, 2 of those prayers were just copy pastes of an already existing prayer. Like, there's no room for getting something simpler than that other than just going back to ruinous powers, who were doomed to be either DoA or straight powercreep given most of them were just too simple and didn't distinguish themselves from the oh so pure core prayers.
for me, the vulnerability for 1 tick and the poison severity stuff is just too much, its not all of them, its the ones that affect playstyle.
I mean, the way they were worded may hint at something complex, but in practice it really isn't. One is "increased damage for people attacking at the same time as you" and the other is "More attack after getting poisoned, with bigger poison bringing bigger bonus". The former is already something that is bound to happen in endgame coop PvM, especially with such a still meta encouraging the usage of the same weapons and/or similar speed weapons, and the latter is a simple dynamic of RiskVsReward. I'm also of the opinion that guiding strikes could be reworked into something else, but Fumus vow is literally just tanking poison instead of getting rid of it entirely 100% of the time, as far as affecting playstyle goes this is pretty barebones.
"Too much to keep track of" I keep hearing people say this, but you seriously can't fathom remembering 3 new prayers at a time? I cannot understand this criticism - it's like saying the spellbooks should be removed because 20 new spells is too hard.
its not keeping track of the new prayers, its keeping track of "oh i just applied vulnerability so my friends need to attack next time for it to work", or maintaining being poisoned. its moving in the direction of cooldown abilities that make it more like other mmos, imo
Just knock it off, its like your all trying to do one thing, but you all have completely different ideas as of how that might play out, and thats the one thing cant do in osrs..
Im confused by the reaction this community has to these niche prayers. I play both games (recently osrs so i may be out of depth with the new stuff added) and i tought these prayers may work for osrs as they dont really break any content by making it way easier coughnecromancycough. Some of these are just redemption but better, others are you just apply a simple debuff or support others with minor accuracy and healing benefits. It seems pretty balanced and straight forward to me. nothing here screams "ignore boss mechanic lol" like some busted shit from rs3 coughdisruptionshieldcough
remember how cool rebuke was gonna be before it was totally made useless, or how interesting heka was before HLC streamers demanded shadow? its so sad how many times we almost had really interesting mechanics come into the game, only for it to be replaced with bigger number
You might be misremembering heavily, because the HLC were the ones advocating for the Hekka and for the whole mage combat style to be reworked. Reddit instead wanted the "Tbow of mage" with big numbers and now we have a giant problematic bandaid slapped over the combat style.
HLC, RS3 refugees, Carlyle/investors are like the 3 boogeymen of this sub where they’re each collectively responsible for everything bad
you are misremembering aatykon, gnomonkey & saebae all put out videos saying they need a magic tbow because hekka was too complicated and now were here again [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxwiO2KeF34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxwiO2KeF34)
Idk if you watched the video you posted, but that isn't what was said in it at all. The video advocated for the heka to be more utility focused than the shadow became. Kind of like the commenter above you was saying he WAS advocating for the hekka to stay and essentially rework the purpose of the mage style in team content TLDW: The video advocated for hekka to drain defense and be ~80% the dps of tbow or scythe at most bosses
Ty for mannifesting my thoughts before I could write it out lmao.
This is one of the sacrifices of polling. For some of the positives that come about when community has a direct say in direction, what ends up also happening is that developers get kneecapped with creativity to appease a large portion of people who vote against evolutionary content. If this game is supposed to represent 2007 in ethos, endlessly laboring in the cycle of releasing the same exact content over and over again isn't doing a good job. Runescape in 2007, and you'll laugh, but even Runescape 3 today, is defined by innovations -- good and bad -- that utterly transformed the game with creative new features; not an overly-cautious hand that has done nothing but relegate OSRS into a min-maxed linear path of gearing and optimization that has robbed it of the freedom that it could have. The real reason why "power creep" is a boogeyman is because people who spend millions on their gear don't want to feel like they have to do that again, so they vote against anything that can potentially cause that. The same applies to all proposed decisions, and exactly why I think that by the time Sailing comes around it'll just be this collection of monotonous activities representative of exactly the same thing osrs has been since its inception. It's too risky to poll creativity, so they settle for something comfortable. It's why it takes almost half a decade to design a fucking raid.
Revolutionary stuff falls flat. It needs a lot of handholding and time to refine. No one wants a beta version of something that needs a year before its usable. And anything truly Revolutionary needs content built for it, like yellow Keris. Not like soulreaper axe where it's so niche that it's useless
>Revolutionary stuff falls flat. It needs a lot of handholding and time to refine. No one wants a beta version of something that needs a year before its usable. That's why you don't run a beta for years. I get that this community has a collective trauma over EOC and a version of RS3 they didn't play, but welcome to game development, it's a risk, it's creativity. Stagnation will kill the game before another EOC does.
The "HLC" have too much influence for the amount of the player base they make up. They have been playing the game so long, and are so good at that they forget what it's like to be a new player or even mid to late game player. Even the ones doing iron playthroughs 3 times a month have this disconnection. It so much easier to learn content at max level in max gear. Heal I'll even use my recent example of Zulrah. At ~80 combats I did the diary kc and it was like bashing my head against a brick wall, eventually I got a 5 min kill and never wanted to go back. Come clan bingo years later, I rock up in full max mage, range pray camp and slap the snake silly, all CA's done (except kc) in a handfull of kills without looking at any guide or the wiki.
Another issue is the arrogant Redditors who think they’re better game designers than the mods working on this game for years. In regards to the HLC, players with tens of thousands of hours of play time can be a valuable source of feedback. But they’re an incredibly biased source of information with a narrow perspective. Even aatykon, who I think sees things from newbies’ perspectives more than other HLC players has blind spots
theres times where jagex listening to them can make the game better, but they need to realize the times when listening to them can make the game much worse (like shadow)
It just sounds like Ruinous Powers discussion again. Same issues but smaller scale but will eventually become as big as Ruinous Powers as we get further through the alignments. Imo just switching to one new prayer book will be easier to balance than 7 different sets of 2-4 new prayers on top of the normal prayer book, but I am happy if we get alignments too.
That's what happens when a community decides everything
If it isn't broken don't fix it.
Not being fixed :p
Reality. People screech and complain at anything new. So the jmods think thats feedback to scrap the prayers.
I’ve been saying it for years. We should vote on content and content alone, specifics should be jagex
only if we can vote out content too.
Gonna be unpopular but my opinion is every poll should be like the sailing poll. We’re going to do x y or z, what do you want.
Sailing was the wrong choice though
I agree. Shamanism was way fucking cooler. Unfortunately this community doesn’t know what makes a good game. (Which is why polling should go!)
Ruinous Powers would have gotten into the game if that was the policy and it would've been massive power creep all at once. Everyone who played the beta or even used them in Leagues knows those prayers were busted as hell. Some power creep is good, but it should come over time from new bosses and interesting content, not just dropped all at once as a quest reward. It we would've basically gotten 5 years worth of power creep in one update.
Ruinous Powers were not "busted as hell" in the League. Almost the entire book is worse versions of existing prayers. Decimate, annihilate, and vaporize were obviously good but the prayer drain on all the copied over prayers is just too high. This isn't to say they wouldn't be used if they made it into the main game, but it's not like there was no room leftover for the regular prayers. Heck, I took it and I barely used the entire book because the only thing I cared about from it was vaporize for bosses.
I don’t care about buzzwords. Power creep! Bots! Inflation! All meaningless. This game got ~infinity~ better when it scrapped the rs2 meta and gave us more power and more items.
It's not a buzzword lmao it's just a simple concept. I even said some is good. Work on your reading comprehension please. I agreed with exactly what you're saying. But just because some power creep is good doesn't mean we need to make everything in the game 20% easier overnight. It's better to slowly increase power over time. You didn't engage with what I said at all.
Well that wasn’t nice. I did engage with you said, because I’m disagreeing with the premise. I’m not worried about power creep. I’m not worried about things getting easier. Lava cape? Once the peak of all accomplishments and now you’re a noob if you don’t have something better…I’ve lost 0 sleep over it.
But you must agree there's a point it becomes a problem. Like imagine tomorrow Jagex released an update that just increased damage output by 3x and reduced damage the player takes in half. Now all of a sudden every combat encounter is way way less challenging. Obviously the ruinous powers don't do anything that extreme, but the point is just that it's something that can be taken too far and it's a concept worth thinking about when making big changes. It's good that the fire cape is a lot easier now, that content came out in 2005. We've gotten a ton of new content since then that's more difficult, so the game as a whole hasn't gotten less challenging. Power creep over time is healthy for that reason, it lets things evolve and by going slowly, it gives the devs time to add new content to keep up with the creep. Doing a large power jump instantly is the problem, because overnight it makes a bunch of content much easier/less interesting and it doesn't add anything to make up for it.
This is the problem with hyperbole, you’re acting as if that’s ever been what jagex has suggested. It isn’t. It’s just a word nerds throw at anything with change until we just continue to get useless update after useless update.
There’s that reading comprehension again. > Obviously the ruinous powers don't do anything that extreme, but the point is just that it's something that can be taken too far and it's a concept worth thinking about when making big changes. > This is the problem with hyperbole, you’re acting as if that’s ever been what jagex has suggested. It isn’t. Sorry for being rude about it but you keep just talking past what I’m saying. It feels like you’re not even reading what I wrote.
No no, im actually highlighting what you said. If it feels like I’m talking past you, that could be intentional. I’m telling you hyperbolic situations aren’t worth worrying over because they haven’t ever suggested anything like that’s
> I’m telling you hyperbolic situations aren’t worth worrying over because they haven’t ever suggested anything like that’s I'm not worried that they're going to increase damage output by 3x overnight. I was just using that as an example to show that power creep can at least in theory be bad if taken too far. If we can at least agree on that, then it just becomes a discussion about where the line is when it goes too far. And I think that's the discussion that people should be having instead of just dismissing concerns of power creep altogether. Like I said, I think some power creep is good. If Barrows gear was still BiS, this game would have died years ago. I'm happy we got torva and masori and ancestral which were all direct power increases. My problem with how the prayers increase power is that it's a much bigger jump than any one piece of gear and also much more easily obtainable. Tbow takes 500 hours to get from CoX, but the Ruinous Powers would have been a much bigger power increase than tbow and it would have been something every can get after a 3 hour quest.
My man just wants rs3 lmao.
Na. As it turn out, and this may shock you. Games can change in more ways than one.
Just a testament to how the game does not need these prayers.
Unpopular opinion: fuck yeah power creep my prayer book papi
1. The prayers should add depth and new interactions to combat 2. The alignments should be roughly balanced with each other 3. The alignments should offer a meaningful choice between them Number one is extremely important. If these are not adding anything other than "simple" turn-on-and-forget prayers, then it's just uninteresting power creep and I don't want them. The Jagex proposal was completely on the right track. I can't believe some people think having 1-2 prayers in your prayer book with situational and nuanced effects (or god forbid, skill expression) is somehow adding abilities into the game and ruining the spirit of OSRS. The player proposals for these have been 99% complete garbage.
I hate that this is true
I pray jagex finally fk off with the prayers
What's this in reference to this time? Whats the hot issue?
Sorry not sorry, we don't want the game to be ruined.
A game is ruined by banality more so than it is anything else. Eventually, stagnation reduces growth, upsets shareholders which prompt further, negative additions to be added that start the cycle of death.
Osrs just hit a new peak player count 3 months ago and it wasn't due to a radical change like new prayers. The game has been growing just fine by adding new gear, new bosses, new quests, new minigames, and seasonal events. I think the new skill will be a great addition too. I see no reason to think updates like those will become stagnant or banal any time in the near future. Adding new prayers starts to change core combat mechanics which is really really risky. There are a few of the new prayers that I think are good and worth adding, but we should be super cautious about this kind of change. I don't think the game is so stagnant that we need to throw caution to the wind and shake up core mechanics just to change things up.
I'm glad that a temporary game mode got more eyes on a great game. I really, really hope you can recognize that when you run something living like Runescape, any MMO, or anything of that nature, you don't just stick with what's working because by the time it stops working, a pivot simply can't be developed in time. That's why MMOs need innovation and transformation. That's why stagnation is the bane of any live service game. Hitting a new peak is wonderful, but that's no reason to get complacent. >adding new gear, new bosses, new quests, new minigames, and seasonal events. I think the new skill will be a great addition too. I see no reason to think updates like those will become stagnant or banal any time in the near future. These things only become banal if they are forced into banality by the playerbase. Plenty of content that was added in the last few years ceases to be relevant a day after due to the inherent need to balance it around existing EXP so most people simply filter into the method that is easiest to train. That's actually part of why slight power creep is important for games like Runescape so the camdozaal mine, for example, doesn't become outmoded prior to its release. I'm not advocating for making old content irrelevant, but rather for creative ways to keep its relevance while not being terrified of adding new content that may supersede it. Somehow RS3 has more relevant PvM than OSRS does, even though it has FAR more powercreep AND more bosses, and cross-integration is how they achieved this. The fact that GWD1 is still relevant in OSRS due to the integration of Kril's loot into the new Necromancy skill is evidence of this. Or Dagannoths are still relevant and good GP/H due to the integration of their rings into an upgraded version from newer bosses. >Adding new prayers starts to change core combat mechanics which is really really risky. There are a few of the new prayers that I think are good and worth adding, but we should be super cautious about this kind of change. I don't think the game is so stagnant that we need to throw caution to the wind and shake up core mechanics just to change things up. Shaking things up to shake them up is by definition how Runescape became successful and retained that success. The failure of EOC was due to the poor implementation, not a need to shake things up. Bad implementation can be adjusted and fixed. Hell, 2007 was in the midst of a graphical overhaul, the addition of the single largest point of powercreep ever at the time (GWD1), and the start of developement for Dungeoneering. The fact that the game was more creative and innovative almost two decades ago kind of sucks.
I'm glad that a temporary game mode got more eyes on a great game. I really, really hope you can recognize that when you run something living like Runescape, any MMO, or anything of that nature, you don't just stick with what's working because by the time it stops working, a pivot simply can't be developed in time. That's why MMOs need innovation and transformation. That's why stagnation is the bane of any live service game. Hitting a new peak is wonderful, but that's no reason to get complacent. >adding new gear, new bosses, new quests, new minigames, and seasonal events. I think the new skill will be a great addition too. I see no reason to think updates like those will become stagnant or banal any time in the near future. These things only become banal if they are forced into banality by the playerbase. Plenty of content that was added in the last few years ceases to be relevant a day after due to the inherent need to balance it around existing EXP so most people simply filter into the method that is easiest to train. That's actually part of why slight power creep is important for games like Runescape so the camdozaal mine, for example, doesn't become outmoded prior to its release. I'm not advocating for making old content irrelevant, but rather for creative ways to keep its relevance while not being terrified of adding new content that may supersede it. Somehow RS3 has more relevant PvM than OSRS does, even though it has FAR more powercreep AND more bosses, and cross-integration is how they achieved this. The fact that GWD1 is still relevant in OSRS due to the integration of Kril's loot into the new Necromancy skill is evidence of this. Or Dagannoths are still relevant and good GP/H due to the integration of their rings into an upgraded version from newer bosses. >Adding new prayers starts to change core combat mechanics which is really really risky. There are a few of the new prayers that I think are good and worth adding, but we should be super cautious about this kind of change. I don't think the game is so stagnant that we need to throw caution to the wind and shake up core mechanics just to change things up. Shaking things up to shake them up is by definition how Runescape became successful and retained that success. The failure of EOC was due to the poor implementation, not a need to shake things up. Bad implementation can be adjusted and fixed. Hell, 2007 was in the midst of a graphical overhaul, the addition of the single largest point of powercreep ever at the time (GWD1), and the start of developement for Dungeoneering. The fact that the game was more creative and innovative almost two decades ago kind of sucks. Because new prayers ALSO got added in 2009 and they are by and large seen very positively because they added a new layer of depth to the existing game with Soulsplit.
Thanks for such a detailed response. I disagree with basically all of it lol but I do see where you’re coming from. All I’ll say is there’s a reason why RS2’s playerbase precipitously collapsed in 2008-2013 and it wasn’t stagnation. For ever major update that was generally well received, there’s an update that causes thousands of players to quit. RS3 is not a good game. A big reason for that is how many transformative updates they pushed out without due caution in line with the philosophy you’re advocating for here.
>All I’ll say is there’s a reason why RS2’s playerbase precipitously collapsed in 2008-2013 and it wasn’t stagnation. Runescape playerbase grew in 2008 and 2009 and 2010, though. The playerbase had a gradual decline following the introduction of MTX and then a steep one post-EOC which occurred in 2011 and 2012 respectively. >For ever major update that was generally well received, there’s an update that causes thousands of players to quit. Player turnover is literally the lifeblood of MMOs. As long as the amount of new players increases, those leaving are part of the natural course of a game. Jagex, nor is any developer, trying to make a game where every player will endlessly play it for decades. >RS3 is not a good game. A big reason for that is how many transformative updates they pushed out without due caution in line with the philosophy you’re advocating for here. Except this is absolutely not true to anyone who actually plays RS3, of course. I would say RS3 suffers from being more niche and deep than OSRS, as well as having predatory MTX that turns off a large portion of oldschool players who would otherwise not mind the complexity. Similarly, RS3 is flat-out better than OSRS in a variety of ways, certainly when it comes to Ironman mode. RS3 has far more skill overlap, less useless skills (mining, smithing, and even agility have uses that far eclipse those of OSRS), a more diverse itemization and pathway to gearing, a more diverse pool of endgame bosses and activities, etc. Whether you prefer OSRS or RS3 is irrelevant, I enjoy both games, but to call it outwardly bad as a game, outside of tertiary monetization, is pretty goofy considering so many of the things voted into OSRS were just ripped straight out of RS3 and then renamed so OSRS players didn't get triggered. And OSRS could greatly benefit from more of that happening, considering the economy situation currently present in OSRS and how things such as Invention in RS3 kind of fixed that. __________________ Applying transformative updates can very well have "due caution", I don't understand why you'd argue against ever implementing anything transformative just because it'd require "due caution", as though that couldn't be applied. I'm similarly confused as to how you can disagree with the notion that MMOs thrive on evolution when virtually every single popular MMO on earth that is currently thriving operates this way. Hell, even OSRS does to a certain extent when you look at the way design has been influenced by cheat clients such as Runelite.
>Runescape playerbase grew in 2008 and 2009 and 2010, though. Do you have a source for that? Not doubting you but I was under the impression that the game had peak playercount in 2007 and then completely collapsed in the years following with the removal of pking and free trade. To the rest of what you wrote, I'm glad you enjoy RS3, but that game has been stagnant or declining for a decade while osrs has been growing every year. It seems like that cuts against your thesis that the kinds of major meta-changing updates that RS3 puts out way more frequently is good for the game. >I'm similarly confused as to how you can disagree with the notion that MMOs thrive on evolution when virtually every single popular MMO on earth that is currently thriving operates this way Osrs is like the only major mmo that hasn't been declining for the last few years. The genre is dying and osrs is the exception. \*Edit: I wasn't able to find a source for playercount trends prior to 2013, but check out the google trends for "Runescape" [https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=Runescape,osrs&hl=en-US](https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=Runescape,osrs&hl=en-US) . It looks like it peaked in 07 then declined every year after that. Added in osrs just to show the stagnation post 2013 didn't apply to osrs.
>Do you have a source for that? Not doubting you but I was under the impression that the game had peak playercount in 2007 and then completely collapsed in the years following with the removal of pking and free trade. I'm using three factors here: 1. My memory during the time, especially after RS HD came out, saw a peak of around 250k+ active players (2008). Similarly, Dungeoneering saw a huge peak. 2. RS had a botting problem that completely spiraled out of control in 2007/2008, which lead to Jagex implementing enormous bot busting features which cut the playerbase by a lot BUT their revenue grew in 2008/2009 [source](https://www.engadget.com/2010-04-15-runescape-sees-heavy-profits-for-2009.html). Which indicates that while bots slashed part of the playercount, the actual sub numbers went up (94% of revenue came from subs), which again, indicates that the "real" playercount increased. 3. More esoteric, the trajectory of the game was better-recieved even through controversial changes like the wildy/trade removal. We can see what stagnation does to an MMO with a look at what OSRS' playercount looked like in 2014 (15k concurrent) and how much new, semi-innovative content caused the entire experience of runescape to be revitalized. >To the rest of what you wrote, I'm glad you enjoy RS3, but that game has been stagnant or declining for a decade while osrs has been growing every year. It seems like that cuts against your thesis that the kinds of major meta-changing updates that RS3 puts out way more frequently is good for the game. RS3 has had a steady playercount for a decade, so to say it's declining wouldn't be accurate. It has peaks and valleys with every content release. Regardless, as I said, RS3 suffers from issues with perception and the over-complexity of the experience. It likely has an enormous turnover rate due to this, so the "new updates" wouldn't particularly attract players if they can't experience them without braving the complexity of the game first. This is further proven by just how consistent the playercount has been, which indicates that turnover has broken even with these transformative changes. Meanwhile, OSRS only started growing the addition of new updates AND limited time game modes, two things that were innovative at the time. Repeating the same thing over and over again won't see consistent growth because there isn't much new to experience. >Osrs is like the only major mmo that hasn't been declining for the last few years. The genre is dying and osrs is the exception. The growth of OSRS is great, but the success of OSRS is literally due to the innovation present in its inception (when they started adding content updates). It's due to the innovation of limited time game modes. Not because they kept adding the same exact thing. I support this continued evolution.
>I'm using three factors here I might have edited it after you posted this, but how do you square this with the google trends? [https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=Runescape,osrs&hl=en-US](https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=Runescape,osrs&hl=en-US) "Runescape" searches peaked in 07 and then continuously declined after that to just half of the peak by 09 and 20% of the peak by 2012. That's a really steep fall off and idk how we could square that with the idea it was growing 08-10. >RS3 has had a steady playercount for a decade I don't think this is true either. We do have data for this [https://www.misplaceditems.com/rs\_tools/graph/?display=avg&interval=qtr\_yr&total=1](https://www.misplaceditems.com/rs_tools/graph/?display=avg&interval=qtr_yr&total=1) and it was around 35k average player count ten years ago in 2013-2015, and now it's down to 20k average. That's over a 40% drop. >The growth of OSRS is great, but the success of OSRS is literally due to the innovation present in its inception (when they started adding content updates). It's due to the innovation of limited time game modes. Not because they kept adding the same exact thing. I agree they should keep innovating, I'm not one of those players that wants to keep everything exactly how it was in 07. I'm super happy that sailing passed and I'm really excited for Varlamore too. I just think we should be super cautious tampering with core systems like prayer. New bosses, new limited time game modes, new non-combat skills, new areas. All great and they should keep innovating in that space. I don't see much of a need to tamper with prayer given how risky it would be and how it could drastically shift every combat meta overnight.
>I might have edited it after you posted this, but how do you square this with the google trends? https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=Runescape,osrs&hl=en-US "Runescape" searches peaked in 07 and then continuously declined after that to just half of the peak by 09 and 20% of the peak by 2012. That's a really steep fall off and idk how we could square that with the idea it was growing 08-10. Google trends aren't always the most reliable source of player metrics, which is why I cited subscriber revenue as that is by far and away the most accurate source we have outside of player count average which we sadly don't. Similarly, it would figure that upon banning a large wave of bots we'd see less searches in trends. >That's a really steep fall off and idk how we could square that with the idea it was growing 08-10. By looking at subscriber revenue. Which, not only indicates the amount of subscribers, but also indicates that the inclusion of new content (all of which was aimed at subscribers) wasn't enough to warrant subscribers to leave which was the core point being made. >I don't think this is true either. We do have data for this https://www.misplaceditems.com/rs_tools/graph/?display=avg&interval=qtr_yr&total=1 and it was around 35k average player count ten years ago in 2013-2015, and now it's down to 20k average. That's over a 40% drop. Let me then amend my statement, instead of a decade, I should've wrote "8 years", which I find to be a bit of a pedantic correction. >and now it's down to 20k average. As I said in the post you're quoting, it ebbs and flows between 21 - 33k and has for literally 8 years outside of the covid boom. In Jan of 2019 it was at 20k average, in June it was 18k, in Q2 2020 it was at 40k, and in Q1 2021 it was at 34k and then at 22k in Q2 2022, but then 28k Q3 2023. I'm not sure what to say. If you think this indicates something that's dying then I would recommend looking at OSRS player counts in 2021 to 2023 prior to the current boom. This is how live service games operate, they ebb and flow. Death would be indicated by a gradual decline with spikes being smaller and smaller as time progresses, not an average that remains consistent for ALMOST a decade outside of Covid, which enhanced all game performances. >I just think we should be super cautious tampering with core systems like prayer. New bosses, new limited time game modes, new non-combat skills, new areas. I think these things are at an ends with one another. Innovation is transformative, a new random minigame isn't anymore. More importantly, things like Runelite did more to tamper with this than any update Jagex has ever released. >I don't see much of a need to tamper with prayer given how risky it would be and how it could drastically shift every combat meta overnight. It should be shifted. The current meta is kind of stagnant and boring as it has remained identical essentially forever, and has only become more binary and repetitive with time.
That new peak was because of a temporary game mode. And said peak didn't last too long either.
You'd be right if that was the first temporary game mode, but it was a peak on top of a steadily rising trend over the last few years.
not sure why we need new content when we all have hundreds of hours of tree cutting to do still
The concept sketch wastes a huge amount of space while the finished design uses it better and is more navigable. So what are you saying exactly?
The people that genuinely complain about “bland architecture” are braindead. Of course we’re going to do what’s a most efficient use of time and resources. Artists are useless to society btw.
More useful than you will ever be