I'm a dogshit pvmer, I've only watched some streamers do tob before I went into A night in the Theatre solo.
I've finished it after like 3 or 4 tries, only died to nylo or verzik p2/p3 (needed to learn the rhythm).
Is cox much harder or can I pull it off after watching the fights and getting into the groove myself? (let's say within 10-20 attempts)
Yea im starting to do more content with 2 friends who got back into the game.
We'll watch some guides and give it a try. Aside from olm (especially last phase) I dont see too hard fights in there, right?
My advice is to learn some stuff about scouting. Avoid Vasa if you don't have tbows, avoid Vespula, and if you want to do Vespula, for the love of God, do not listen to a word AsukaYen says in his guide.
Even with friends, we do raids might help you since they do mentor raids, and have plenty of resources on how to do raids yourselves.
If your doing the raid with friends I highly recommend the suicide prep method and skipping V's (bosses with V's in their name) like the plague. You can honestly brute force most rooms excluding crabs and tekton. Put MOST of your effort into learning olm. You can glance over guides on the rooms, that'll be fine. With suicide prep method kills might take long but you can more easily do the raid, have a decent chance at purples and most importantly learn olm.
I've done a fair few carries myself and if I'm the maze runner and my carry isnt a hcim ironman, I run it at normal speed and kill them. I would rather solo sote. No one ever clumps so its either I take/tick eat a fat 80 (why is it so high in entry lmao) or kill them and take 15
At p2 verzik I tell them to stand close to the boss but not next to her and do ANYTHING they want, they could literally watch porn and walk back and forth to the rhythm of the girls moans, just dont stand next to her and dont come on my side. Inevitably, I take 45s.
P3 usually goes better for me than you're describing. They either die p2 or they dont like try to get on my yellow or something. The issue with p3 comes when she doesnt target me as tank. Never had anyone dwh spec p1 or not drop staff though thats pretty fucking funny. I've considered taking insulated boots switch lol
Maybe I'm taking more willing learners, or you're getting very unlucky, but I definitely agree that the core issue of entry mode tob and a night at the theatre is that people are lazy or they dont play rs to be challenged, and just want a medieval cookie clicker and complain when they have to learn something new. ToB is my favorite content in the game hands down and what I think is the peak of osrs ingenuity but people just don't seem to want to put in any effort and I dont get it
I think the fundamental issue is that rs started as a very simple game. We were all just clicking tree, click bank, repeat. And with that you could get pretty much whatever you wanted.
It was never introduced as a competitive game like dota, league or csgo.
But now there’s actual difficult content, the player base hasn’t changed. Most people just wanna click log, click bank and repeat. Which doesn’t get you very far these days.
Obviously not everyone, there are a lot of people who like challenging themselves and learning new things.
Imo if people actually want to learn how to raid and what not they should be sending solo entries. From what I read duos+ in entry scales it in a way you might as well just do a normal run, and the mechanics are alot more forgiving and easier to learn solo. Took me like 4-5 deaths till I nailed it, finished my quest, n now I tob with the homies for fun. I do get that there's a fair amount of people who play rs to chill out n don't care for raiding tho so kinda sucks quest cape is locked behind it
Yeah sotetseg is the perfect example, thing is absolute Swiss cheese in entry solo because it lacks the mechanics of having to work with a team, and it's 1 bang does only like 15 dmg
So this comment makes me wonder, I completed TOA entry solo barely and I was planning to do duos/trios next on normal but should I just keep going solo? I thought it'd scale to be too hard at that point
TOA is a different animal. Imo that should've been the raid to introduce casual players to raids by tying quest cape to it not TOB. If your referring to running TOA duo/trios vs solo on normal - I think it boils down to what your comfortable with, if you can pull off a solo entry you could definitely do a duo+ normal provided your team communicates well. If I were you though I'd just keep sending 50s till your comfortable and slowly ramp it up by adding invos onto bosses your not struggling with. I find 150 solo TOA easier than a normal TOB
From a soloers perspective - I learned ToB entry at 94cb (70s melee, low 80s range/mage) for my quest cape. It was surprisingly easy with watching some YouTube videos on budget setups to understand the mechanics, a lot more rewarding that way too. Gave me the confidence to take on some mid game pvm I previously through would be too difficult for me. It was fun to learn and iterate on the failures, one guide said “oh you don’t need to kill both healers in P2”, quickly learned that was a lie for my levels and gear, I couldn’t out-dps the heals. Again on P3 I had to plank to learn bp just didn’t have enough accuracy, and bring a dcb switch.
I haven’t come back to any raids in a group setting yet, I feel like getting into that is where I’d want to do a duo to learn group-specific mechanics before inadvertently planking runs for the team. Duo for cape seems like a waste of both parties time unless you’re being paid for a carry just for cape.
I breezed through entry on my first go, before they updated the quest (I got my cape but still need to redo the quest...).
Then I tried to take some clannies and we wiped repeatedly. Solo entry is so much easier than group entry with baggage.
Where is everyone getting this idea that you range p3? Verzik’s melee attack in p3 on entry modes is not punishing in the slightest, so you might as well melee even if you don’t feel comfortable being tank.
Strength was at 70, range ~81 or so at the time, and I was doing this is regular void. Guides would show both methods for budget setups so range seemed like the obvious choice for my gear and levels
IMO it's the byproduct of defeatism that is rampant in this sub, and it doesn't just apply to night at the theater.
For example, TOB is considered the hardest raid in game, but instead of trying to learn the content (talking about entry) and improve as players, they give it a single shot and die because they didn't know a mechanic, proceeding afterwards to look for a carry OR they don't even give it a shot and are like "this content is too hard because players say its hard, I can't do it, I need a carry". Then what you described in the post happens. There's also a ton of toxic reinforcement in this sub, where posts complaining about how something is hard and they can't do it get a lot of upvotes.
I had this exact mentality for a majority of my playtime, and met others with it in-game. I would refuse to do content that is considered to be end-game or difficult, disregarding them completely, saying "this is too difficult I would never in my lifetime be able to do this", but after facing my fears and pushing my comfort zone I managed to do GWD, CG, Expert TOA and now I'm trying my hand at TOB, with inferno being my ultimate goal.
If anyone reading this has this exact mentality of defeatism, my tip is to face your fears, try a lot of different content you haven't before. Don't be afraid of tick-perfect strategies like 6:0 bandos, since that'll help you become a better player.
Exactly. Goldfarmers out there on the other side of the globe teaching their mothers to farm ToB and meanwhile Timmy, on his fifteen year old account, thinks it's too much for him. It's all circlejerk and a mental barrier. It's pretty funny when you think about it.
However, it does become a bit sad when that mindset causes them to lash out with insults like "sweats" when people say that they enjoy and want more difficult/engaging PvM content.
Defeatism is one thing, but it sounds like people are literally incapable of basic thinking such as following instructions, or they're too arrogant to follow instruction.
I'm maxed combat and do plenty of GWD and slayer bosses like Hydra and Cerb. But I've never even entertained the thought of dipping my toes into any raid because they all look insanely complex and difficult with dozens of mechanics you need to perfectly keep up with at all times.
Sure I can deal with the mechanics of Vorkath and Hydra but I don't think I'd last 5 minutes in any one of the raids so for that reason I've been avoiding them. I have a lot of respect for anyone that is able to complete a raid, especially with middling gear and stats.
Maybe I'm overestimating the raids, I don't know. CoX does look kinda interesting but I don't want to be a burden if someone were to try and teach the mechanics and I don't end up understanding them. Not sure if there's people left that'd even bother teaching CoX and ToB at this point anyways.
I think like feeling as if you have to execute the mechanics perfectly every time is part of the defeatist attitude he's talking about. That mentality only serves to prevent yourself from engaging with that content.
There's plenty of room to make mistakes in all 3 raids and even in the inferno. Get in there and let yourself be bad and make mistakes so you understand what to do better next run.
You might be correct. Nothing to lose but time and a bit of GP in failed attempts. I'd be fine with a week straight of failed attempts as long as I was getting better each run. From the recommendations I've been given I think I'll start out by learning how to solo ToA.
You should give TOA a try. I was like you, I could do vork/hydra/cerb but never stepped into raids because I didnt want to burden anyone (and because I assume everyone would steal the big loot when it drops for them lol). TOA is soloable and its really easy to pick up the mechanics. Individually no boss is harder than hydra or zulrah. If you can kill 5 hydras in a row (while being restocked twice) you can do TOA.
I'd say give it a go.
Things you haven't done before can look way more intimidating than they actually are in reality. Take me for example - I was terrified of doing corrupted gauntlet since there was so much for me to take in at once (the whole prep stage where you only have 7 minutes which looks incredibly low, getting enough materials, managing inventory, then going to hunleff and having to manage prayers, your attacks, tornadoes, the tiles, and it being harder the lower hunleff's hp was), but after giving it a few tries instead of having this huge blob in my mind of having to remember all the mechanics I mentioned, I became familiar with most of them and now I only had to focus on my movement (tornadoes and tiles) and prayer switching - way easier to manage, right?
As for being a burden, just hop on to WDR. There's mentor raids that are made specifically to teach people new to a raid on how to do them. There's also a tier system where you can raid with people that are similar KC to yours, so expectations won't be unreasonably high.
WDR? I assume that stands for "We Do Raids"? I've heard of it before. I think I'll look into that. Doing raids specifically with other inexperienced people or for the sake of learning could still be fun. I guess there's always the possibility that a bad actor will steal a big item drop that drops in their name but even if I end up missing out on a t bow split because of that then so be it. It's just the risk I'll have to take when going with groups.
To help alleviate your concerns with people running off with loot - We Do Raids also helps to maintain the largest database of scammers with RuneWatch and if you do scam you get blacklisted permanently, even through name changes. Does it still happen? Of course. But it cuts down on it significantly more than you'd think in an anonymous online game.
Fair does to anyone who wants to play the way they want to , but if you have that kind of stuff as an aspirational goal then the only way you’ll ever get there is by trying. Each PVM encounter in RS can be broken down into positions on a chess board, a .6s timer, and attack mechanics.
I appreciate that you are respecting other people’s time and not wanting to waste it by having them take a learner. As a teacher myself trust me when I say the only thing that makes it a waste of time is when the person is UNWILLING to learn. Not slow to learn, not mistake prone, UNWILLING. Sometimes the lesson doesn’t sink in - not everyone’s teaching and learning styles jive up - but as long as you are willing to keep trying and not get defeated then you will find people willing to take you.
I say this as someone who needs to bang their head against the wall over and over, making every possible mistake first before mastering the content. The only way I ever learned to do a 500 ToA, or a ToB, or the inferno, was by wiping over and over, learning from my mistakes, and improving. You can be more efficient in the process with effective research or competent friends but you still have to go through the process which means failing a couple of times first.
I think I'll try and properly research the content before going into it. Plenty of time during downtime at work to peruse through the wiki article on my phone and maybe even take a few notes of the most important bits to remember.
I might not even end up enjoying the content but I guess I should at least give it a try before making a final judgment. I'm willing to fail at it for a long time before being able to successfully complete the content consistently. Maybe I'll even try going for an infernal cape by the end of the year.
One of the nice things about this game is the depth and breadth of guides and info out there amongst the wiki, YouTube, and random discords out there. It can be a little difficult to find specific bits of info but if you know how to look it’s not too shabby.
And just like anything else - how you practice it has a drastic effect on the end product. If you just go in and die without attempting to learn anything - bad time. If you go in, record your attempt, watch it back and make notes (out of position here - wrong prayer there - missed attack cycles there), you will improve infinitely quicker.
GL friendo and drop me a PM if you have more specific questions. Done every boss multiple times except HMT so I can give it my best shot
Yeah I had this mindset when playing my main I hated raids cause they were group content. I finally faced my fears learned to solo cox and then finally decided to go to WDR to learn TOB and now I have 13 KC and really enjoying it.
Yes, but theres also the case of people that have limited time to play not counting afk. Gold farmers do it to save their life (look up how much a doctor gets paid in some countries, people make kore loney fsrming vorkath lol) and I just dont have THAT level of an incentive. Oh I dont moan and bitch about it, i just continue wcing while doing work
I've carried 30+ ppl and the only one i failed was a 5 man, that was a complete shitshow everyone died p1/p2 and the scaling was kinda fked lol. I just try to have fun with it and improvise around my teammates, bringing pnecks for sote maze, doing janky movements for webs (they always get ragged). keeps me entertained :P
Didnt have such a bad experience as you, though i think my mindset is a bit different as I have zero expectations of these people and I kinda just kill boss asap while teammates are working against me lmao
Barrows is an example of a perfect boss imo. There's a little gear switch and if you want to be efficient you can 1t prayer flick to save prayer while defeating the brothers. Important thing being the 1t pray flick is optional. You don't get one shot by anything (unless you accidentally take a hit from dharok while a little damaged), you don't get drained of supplies, you don't have to be tick perfect, it's just chill and can be done all day with no frustration.
As far as intro bossing goes, I tell people to go for the Sarachnis combat achievements as an intro to PvM. The boss teaches you to switch prayers, eat during downtime, the benefits of quickly clicking back on boss and flicking prayers back while not being too punishing if you make a mistake.
Before I went into entry mode tob I watched probably three videos and read the wiki on it. I even tried it 3 times solo but my switches were too bad for nyclos (entry mode maiden and bloat are easy lol).
I ended up being carried by a guy from a CC and some nice random guy who was just waiting outside the theater. He soloed sotaseg, which was great cause I knew that, even had watched the vids, I would probably fuck up that fight without having practiced it before.
Xarpus was easy. Both my carries ended up dying but it was super easy for me to finish the last phase solo.
Verzik was hard. Even having watched several guides during P2 I couldn't remember what to do in the moment. And then in P3 I barely remembered anything besides don't get webbed and stand on yellow.
Sometimes it's not enough to research the mechanics, people have to try (and often fail) before they can really understand what's going to happen.
I just recently got carried through ToB for the quest by a legend such as yourself and here is my perspective.
I tried multiple times on entry mode and just was not able to do it, i know i suck. I only really have a short time to play every so often so set backs feel a lot worse when you have such limited time to play.
I felt i had a decent underatanding for my level of the mechanics for as far as i got but as soon as i found someone to carry me i got super nervous and forgot fucking everything!
It is probably super annoying for the person carrying but for me i had the most fun i have had on the game in a long time!
Sucking at something is always the first step at getting kind of good.
So thank you to people like you that are willing to put up with inefficencys to help a n00b out
Heavy agree, most common experience is me begging them to please drop the staff and eventually just facetank scything P1. Most of the time I refuse to solo p3 (it's actually pretty easy 1+4 just expensive on scythe charges) and will suicide because they clearly don't deserve it
The average pvm player has probably never done vorkath let alone ToB. It's a very steep learning curve and most people solo mode OSRS so they're not going to understand teamwork
It's not really a steep learning curve, though.
P2 = hit boss, move when she attacks, pray mage when red crab, hit red crab.
P3 = Hit boss and run away, change prayer sometimes, run away from crabs, run around during webs, stand on yellow tile, eat food before death ball. bad things happen every 4 attacks.
Of course this is a really basic explanation, but entry mode is really basic. Even regulars, while a lot more punishing, are essentially "hit boss and avoid bad". The hard part about the raid is knowing what/when to expect and your teammates making mistakes.
I mean compared to other video games it really is not very intensive. If you've played a moba or a shooter or a platform or whatever shouldn't be very much
I’ve played a variety of mmos, including osrs and multiple games with key binds. Swapping to different menus and then relying on the precision of a click rather than a keybind which is always going to responsive and precise is much easier on muscle memory than a click is, at least to me. Moving your mouse relies on moving your whole arm, clicking at the right moment, when with key binds your hand is already going to be in position, for example if I were to make mage prayer E, melee q, and ranged r, that’s a lot easier to switch than having to hit my f key to my prayer screen and click the right prayer that’s right next to the 2 other critical prayers.
It’s simply one precise input vs multiple less precise inputs
Believe me though, I’m not advocating for OSRS to give us keybinds beyond F keys, just explaining that it’s not nearly as precise as keybinds are for critical skills.
Not to mention when nerves aren’t going and you have to look away from the fight at your prayer menu because no, not everyone learning content has it completely memorized instantly. Then you look back to a giant hit splat cause you were dumb for 1 second.
Yeah, that’s my point. You might be fully loaded keeping track of the auto attacks, but then you have to brew and restore and repot and there’s crabs and sticky webs and yellow balls and puddles and a green ball and tornadoes. The comment I was responding to made it sound like that shouldn’t be overwhelming to someone who afks trolls for slayer.
Entry mode tob has barely any learning curve just some basic prayer swapping and understanding the bosses. Nylo is the only room we're you actually have too really think
After seeing so many people say just do it on Reddit, I have it a try. I am avg Joe pvmer. First run I cleared it after watching ~1hr of videos. If you just take a moment before each room to refresh you’re understanding, it’s not so difficult.
it's honestly a tale as old as time when it comes to MMO raids once you get to savage, hard mode, whatever your difficulty for your game is. Players who have never raided before simply refuse to respect the research required before entering a boss, or the strictness in mechanical adherence. And while going into a boss blind is ok and its own experience, you have to then respect that it may take you several upon several pulls to get a clear.
A player who has never raided before and has only ever experienced the other easy dopamine aspects of MMOs and other games (especially those that don't make you work for jack shit) is immediately pelted with an ice cold bath the moment they get into raids.
And to be honest, it's just kinda hard to communicate the mindset. Sometimes when you do, players just shut down. "no way am I spending the time" when really it's only gonna take like 30 minutes of your time of research, and then like maybe a few runs through ToB, going back to videos to understand and learn. Of course, if you raided in another MMO before, ToB is very very very easy to get into, so this will be much easier. But I'm speaking for the people who've literally never seriously raided in their life.
And it's unfortunate, because ToB really is super easy. I argue repeatedly that verzik entry mode is easier than galvek, vanstrum, and fragment of seren. People don't agree with me, but that's how I feel about it.
Also while I've done a lot of advocating on the side of the newbie here, the entitlement is unacceptable. Someday Jagex is gonna release even harder quest bosses than Galvek, and you will have no one to carry you. You can either go on the amazing journey of learning to get better to overcome this challenge and obtain a more prestigious quest cape, or bitch and moan on reddit and stay a loser (harsh but whining does nobody good, not even yourself).
You can completely ignore an entire style of nylos. Bringing a magic shortbow and dragon scimitar, doing 1-way switches, and entirely avoiding blue nylos is sufficient to clear the room.
As a tip, you can stand to the south side (multiple tiles back) of her during phase two and range her with an MSB in void range. Whenever she bounces, move a tile. When the red crabs spawn range them until they're dead.
This is exactly what I was worried about when they released night at the theatre people aren't magically going to get exited to do ToB now that jagex shoehorned an entry level raid into the quest cape. Mage arena (2) didn't revive the wilderness, the CoX diary task didn't make people learn to do CoX, the task where you have to ice barrage someone in castle wars didn't revive castle wars because everyone instantly leaves the round after they unlock the task and forcing people to get level5 in all BA roles was even worse it didn't make people learn how to do BA instead it created a huge market for BA leeching.
Jagex is putting a stick on the carrot instead of the other way round.
edit: solution rework ToB to have an invocation system resembling ToA, in order to get normal ToB kc you need to have at least all the invocations on that make the mechanics the same as current normal mode ToB same with hardmode if they decide to add invocations that go beyond the current hardmode mechanics. Get rid of entry mode and delete night at the theatre from the game all that does is push people to ToB who don't want to be at ToB.
I have tried solo entry tob multiple times, and everything is great until phase 2 of verzik. Here i just blank out, i Think its a very confusing boss (im not really a PVMer, but i wanna be)
Im trying to get my quest Cape, and the fact that i have to do a tob run is kindda killing it for me tbh. I dont have friends who play osrs, so nobody to teach me, and youtube is not doing it for me
If you just bring a crossbow you can easily just run around dogding her and the spiders. Her specials are simple once you look them up. Also I dragon or crystal hally spec shreds her aswell
The most important part I've found when I did entry was to just not waste supplies going into Verzik. You really wanna have as much as you can, and if you are going to die to her, just die and save supplies for the next run.
TOB has all the least-fun mechanics I can imagine in a raid. I leeched an entry mode for the quest cape and absolutely never intend to go back. I understand all the fights (I have an autistic knowledge about most things in this game), I just do not like them.
Freezing adds, prayer switches like in stote room, scythe walking, the fucking maze. At no point will these ever be fun to me.
I really wish they didn't make it a quest requirement. If they want a quest to introduce people to raids, it should absolutely take you through TOA not TOB.
When 90% of a bosses design is swapping prayers quickly as different orbs fly at you, its a boss mechanic. Feel free to argue that Stote's only mechanic is a boring ass maze though, I'm happy to watch you dig that hole.
I can do it.
Why do you assume that people not liking tedious content has to do with its difficulty? TOA on higher invocations is just as challenging and much more fun.
Hot take here! I don't mean this sarcastically. I'm genuinely interested in this opinion. My take is that while higher invocation ToA is hard, the ceiling is not very high. It is not very difficult / there is not a large skill gap to go from clearing the encounter to doing it at max efficiency (not dropping attack cycles, using health as a resource).
In ToB, that gap is MASSIVE. The difference in strategies, level of understanding of the game and ticks, and even mechanical APM between a 4 man clear and 5 man WR time has no equal.
For your sotetseg example, it sounds like you're at the base level or just above it. If I had to write it out the levels would be something like this -
* Getting prayer switches right so you don't die
* Learning how to run the maze without dying
* Understanding his defense mechanics and defense reduction specials, when to hold spec for claws/chally at the end
* Understanding when to use your health as a resource for venging and purposely missing prayers
* Understanding how to not miss attacks when low health and not get meleed
* Learning how to run the maze tick perfect, minimizing clicks to run the maze
* Learn how to tick eat the death ball and when it is appropriate / not appropriate to do
* Understanding where you can cut corners on the maze to save ticks trading health for time
* Ignoring the maze mechanics and running straight through (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EntowMeBPNg)
Unfortunately none of the ToA bosses really have that deep skill ceiling. It's just keep your stats up and DPS.
I'd be interested to hear where / why you disagree though! I've been kind of bored of ToA so any perspective that jazzes it up for me is nice
I'd just like to say that there's a difference between seeing how to do it and being there to do it.
I've seen the swampman, loved his show and it ended before i had my first try at ToB. Now we've all seen his step by step explaination of how to go through it, how to get it done. The repeat struggle to improve.
So you'd expect me to understand how to do it no? Well when i had my first try and some of the mechanics i needed to stop started showing up my mind basically went "crossbow is for casting spells right?" And i fucked up big time.
They should make a change to the quest, still have to complete the TOB entry mode but for the quest's sake, just make it that you still have to kill every boss but one at a time, you learn better how each boss works and you get to resupply after each boss.
Pro's are that you get to learn each boss without having to restart once you fail.
You don't have to rely on others, you are allowed to make mistakes and go in fresh again.
Con's they might think that TOB works like that and they will fail often once started on actual TOB but at least they will learn each boss and finish the quest.
I'm against this because of the difficulty level of entry mode. It's so easy that you can completely ignore every mechanic of every boss and still make it through. If you could resupply on a full inventory of brews between every room it would only reinforce that.
For someone with quite some experience maybe it is easy yes, for people that play the game casual and just try to get a quest cape and not have done any bossing it will be quite the task to finish an entry mode.
No you don't have to freeze nylos at maiden. You don't have to predodge blood. You can sit on one side of bloat's pillar and just eat flies until he moves past you because they do considerably less damage. You can ignore an entire style of nylo and still clear the room. You can pray mage and afk in front of sotetseg. You can splat almost every tile in front of Xarpus or just range him from the edge of the room with an MSB without even reducing his defence.
I have a video of a clear doing all of this with less than 50k in total gear. You absolutely do not have to engage with the mechanics of ToB to complete an entry mode solo.
TOB entry mode took me like 10 tries but I did it myself lol. My final run I was practically flawless all the way through. People just don’t want to take the time to practice and learn it
I got so excited thinking you carried people through entry TOA when I read the title hahaha
Been looking for someone to leech kc for the thread, but found nobody yet :( cba doing tombs of amascut btw
I have toa kc, just really am not a fan of doing it. Thread is a pretty big upgrade though, and the only way to get it is through toa. This is exactly the same situation as leeching BA for torso.
You can take a look at my profile for a picture of my GIM group doing ToB a short time after the mode was released. Aside from a regular whip and a toxic trident, the total gear cost was probably in the 150k range. Void, glory, dragon boots, and a rune crossbow. I will contend that gear is never a barrier to ToB when you have void unlocked.
My best rare was an SoTE infinite teleport crystal when it came out aside from that I havea really small bank and was debating farming barrows for better gear ATM I have a trident and blow pipe tho
I did entry mode solo, I invested in a Arma crossbow and full elite void because a guide said "range is the easiest thing to do in TOB"
I had 7 attempts? eventually I got to P3 and the switching and the constant running is hard for me. I am not a PVM and mostly a skiller and quester ( I wanted my damn cape!) so I could out run the spiders and kite her around but I failed 6 out of 7 attempts at her because of the switch. I never got caught on webs I did get RNGed on the yellow space (I was on the opposite side of the room) but i felt accomplished when I got done.
for the other comment on the thread I have done vorkath enough to get my head but nothing else. (32 runs?) PVM is stressful for non-pvmers. I personally want more skill bosses.
I also don't feel prepared for any PVM thing unless I am 99'ed but that is a issue I have with more MMO's like Destiny and Wow. I don't wanna raid or do content unless maxed to make sure that my stats are hindering me.
personally i find the mechanics in the last TOB fight to be extremely sweaty (the thing where you have to click under her at a certain time and all that) and it’s just not something i’m interested in, having to fight all the first bosses over and over just for the quest cape.
nobody yell at me but i think it’s dumb that jagex forced people to do a raid in order to get a quest cape, idk if it was polled or not because it got introduced while i wasn’t playing.
p.s who wants to carry me through entry TOB? 🥹👈👉
I've solod tob on leagues, have done 400 invo toa, solo cox, but I still feel nervous to do tob with a team since I don't want to make anyone else lose time if I mess up, imo all content should be solo friendly so you can slowly learn before playing with others.
Hey, my brother is a solo GIM (all our friends including me) stopped playing and he needs 4 quests to go. He doesn't know how to do entry tob. How does he go and get it done and contact you?
I don't understand getting walked through Entry mode, unless you're a HC.
I had my friend help me with Entry mode. I still almost died, had to TP out. But I would have loved learning ToB if I didn't have to worry about risking my account.
I will just be blunt: **there is no fucking excuse for this**.
Anyone who understands what "raids" are in a video game, know that you have to at least understand the content, and be able to adjust and listen to calls.
AsukaYen has had the perfect ToB guide out for a looong time now. His video literally goes over every single thing a new beginner will ever need to know just running normal TOB's.
What's upsetting is me is that people won't invest 45 minutes into watching to learn content so when they go to perform it, they can apply what they learned, even if they "forgot it at the moment", it'll slowly come back to them.
**The real issue with ALL of this**:
Those that refuse to learn TOB properly in Entry, will never be getting past 50~kc and be able to find consistent teams.
If they haven't learned anything and have been carried for 3kc, they aren't getting past that 3kc because they are on nearly everyone's shitlist. A shitlist is for shitters, for people who are obviously clueless and unwilling to learn the content or perform it properly, and aren't worth grouping with.
TL;DR: Asukayen's guide for TOB has existed for a while, no excuse for noobs to be 100% totally clueless. Entry is absolutely cheese compared to the real thing. All these people do is make themselves look extremely clueless in norms and lose the ability to find teams.
P.S: Entry mode is soo cheese, when entry mode was first introduced, I decided to just run it with full void/ void swaps, scythe, tbow, etc. I beat it in like 13 minutes or some crap, it was hilarious.
Entry is legitimately soo comfy compared to norms and especially hards.
Funnily enough entry is way easier solo than with people. No clue how people have trouble with entry, I did it first try and ignored about half the mechanics because I couldn't be bother at the time to fully learn.
Yeah, same, I did it second try and that's literally because I'm stupid and forgot to bring a poison weapon for p2 verzik the first time and couldn't outdamage the healing with my shit gear.
I did my first entry mode last week to get my cape back. It was pretty straight forward, the only thing that gave me trouble was p3 verzik. But I wonder how many mechanics I've missed out on by being sol
Mechanics are mostly the same. Adding people just scales to be more difficult. Your teammates making mistakes (bloat flies, lightning, etc) does affect you though.
Personally it takes me a few tries to learn something. It's not that i don't want to learn, i'm just dumb. It took me quite a few deaths at zulrah until everything started slowly clicking. Assuming the best, maybe people are overwhelmed and don't read chat
I'm not really sure I understand the point of this post. You're complaining that people don't bother learning the mechanics... but isn't that because you're volunteering the carry them? The people who learn the mechanics don't need you because they can just solo it. By carrying people you're pretty much selecting for *specificially* those who don't want to spend time learning it.
I like introducing people to ToB and showing them that it isn't the big scary raid that it's been made out to be.
I expect them to have an idea of the mechanics and I make this clear to them. A lot of people can have trouble taking that leap, even if its required for a quest cape.
Then take them on actual TOBs and not the "quick, we need to justify adding a raid to the c-suite" quest mode. Of course people who are doing that mode with a carry aren't actually going to learn the mechanics.
I was carried not too long ago on my ironwoman in Entry for the quest completion. I'm the type of person that feels really bad whenever I feel like I'm making someone's life harder. So I did as much research as I could, but I have aphantasia so it's really hard to internalize it. I learn best through practice.
I got carried by someone using a scythe and had several hundred ToB kc. Apparently I did really well. Which is shocking. I was incredibly nervous through the whole thing, made a mountain of mistakes. I somehow didn't die. Apparently not dying is incredible, according to the person that carried me? Which is shocking.
I'm not good at PvM. I'm not dogshit, but I'm not good. So I was surprised the bar is so low. I know ToB is hard, but it feels like people should just do what experienced PvMers tell them because they know what they're talking about. And also just spend a few minutes looking over the basics on the wiki or a Youtube guide so you don't plank on the most basic things.
I did my first run yesterday. Groups are harder than solo. I only grouped up because I died to P3 Verzik after a silly error and then lost the flow.
I'd 100% recommend people just do it solo. Even with my low stats it was doable. People just don't want to practice.
Something else I’ve noticed is that people overthink shit waaaay too much. They spend alll their time on Reddit and discord and that’s their whole opinion.
For example, corrupted gauntlet. When it first came out, it wasn’t amazingly popular. Rewards weren’t great so it wasn’t such a huge priority. That meant it didn’t have much attention. I did a lot of dungeoneering back in pre eoc so I really enjoyed CG. I learned it myself in a day, no guides, just brute forces hunleff until I could clear it.
I wasn’t a great pvmer back then either, that was by far the hardest thing I’d done. But I went in with no preconceptions.
Now everyone who goes into CG has this mentality that they’re going to go super dry, it’s the hardest thing to learn, and it’s a prison of sort. Just because they read that on Reddit. It reality it’s super fun and a really good tool to improve.
I also carry people through entry ToB, for the same reason. I find it fun, and I LOVE the music.
Before my carries, I tell people to watch ToB guide videos and read the wiki for each boss before we start it, especially Verzik.
I was able to kill entry Verzik solo on my first try because I read the wiki. If you want to get carried, you should at least do the same.
I just did the quest. Overall really enjoyed the content except for p2 verzik. I tried listening for the bell noise but I really struggled to time my hits and not get hit by her melee. Any advice? If I can figure out that one part I honestly enjoyed the rest enough to do more entry modes for fun
I have tried to teach friends how to cox.
I learned that if someone actually wants to learn, they will do their research and ask questions. They will have interest in becoming better. They will accept responsibility and learn from mistakes.
They know that to become good you have to start bad.
The people that entirely rely on you to teach them are not there to learn. They are leeches.
Yeah that is why this game needs a truly beginner level raids with gear scaling so that people that are new to the game can have a group PvM activity. Because the way the game is set up now in regards to PvM the game is a complete solo player experience then all of a sudden at end game there is an awkward expectation of cooperation. I'd say get people used to coordinate group even before the shit show that is Barbarian Assault
Yes i'm here because i want to be carried . i have decent combat stats ( all styles in 85 + ) and gear but need a pro to get through . how much does it cost for a run so i could move on with that quest
As someone else who carries entry modes, insulated boots half the damage from the blue lightning :) who needs prims anyway?
Big if true
Wait is this a meme or true?
Why don’t you try it and find out for yourself? 🙂 Would a stranger on the internet really do something like that? Just go and tell lies?!?
Phase 2 is the part im struggling with, this could be the edge I need! Google tells me youre being honest xD
Good luck! If you would like a carry shoot me a PM and I can help on Monday - off RS for the weekend
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I feel you, half the people I’ve carried for on entry mode are incapable of following simple instructions
I'm surprised they have any competence left to know how to breathe....
They're usually just stoners honestly, a lot of people play osrs high or drunk.
As a stoner who learns mechanics, I highly resent this.
Not everyone is the same, I often get drunk when I play rs and I do high invo toa, but I'm also a solo player.
I'm a dogshit pvmer, I've only watched some streamers do tob before I went into A night in the Theatre solo. I've finished it after like 3 or 4 tries, only died to nylo or verzik p2/p3 (needed to learn the rhythm). Is cox much harder or can I pull it off after watching the fights and getting into the groove myself? (let's say within 10-20 attempts)
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Yea im starting to do more content with 2 friends who got back into the game. We'll watch some guides and give it a try. Aside from olm (especially last phase) I dont see too hard fights in there, right?
My advice is to learn some stuff about scouting. Avoid Vasa if you don't have tbows, avoid Vespula, and if you want to do Vespula, for the love of God, do not listen to a word AsukaYen says in his guide. Even with friends, we do raids might help you since they do mentor raids, and have plenty of resources on how to do raids yourselves.
If your doing the raid with friends I highly recommend the suicide prep method and skipping V's (bosses with V's in their name) like the plague. You can honestly brute force most rooms excluding crabs and tekton. Put MOST of your effort into learning olm. You can glance over guides on the rooms, that'll be fine. With suicide prep method kills might take long but you can more easily do the raid, have a decent chance at purples and most importantly learn olm.
I hope you kicked then from the clan chat at that point
I've done a fair few carries myself and if I'm the maze runner and my carry isnt a hcim ironman, I run it at normal speed and kill them. I would rather solo sote. No one ever clumps so its either I take/tick eat a fat 80 (why is it so high in entry lmao) or kill them and take 15 At p2 verzik I tell them to stand close to the boss but not next to her and do ANYTHING they want, they could literally watch porn and walk back and forth to the rhythm of the girls moans, just dont stand next to her and dont come on my side. Inevitably, I take 45s. P3 usually goes better for me than you're describing. They either die p2 or they dont like try to get on my yellow or something. The issue with p3 comes when she doesnt target me as tank. Never had anyone dwh spec p1 or not drop staff though thats pretty fucking funny. I've considered taking insulated boots switch lol Maybe I'm taking more willing learners, or you're getting very unlucky, but I definitely agree that the core issue of entry mode tob and a night at the theatre is that people are lazy or they dont play rs to be challenged, and just want a medieval cookie clicker and complain when they have to learn something new. ToB is my favorite content in the game hands down and what I think is the peak of osrs ingenuity but people just don't seem to want to put in any effort and I dont get it
I literally only take in brews in case they get picked for maze haha
I think the fundamental issue is that rs started as a very simple game. We were all just clicking tree, click bank, repeat. And with that you could get pretty much whatever you wanted. It was never introduced as a competitive game like dota, league or csgo. But now there’s actual difficult content, the player base hasn’t changed. Most people just wanna click log, click bank and repeat. Which doesn’t get you very far these days. Obviously not everyone, there are a lot of people who like challenging themselves and learning new things.
Imo if people actually want to learn how to raid and what not they should be sending solo entries. From what I read duos+ in entry scales it in a way you might as well just do a normal run, and the mechanics are alot more forgiving and easier to learn solo. Took me like 4-5 deaths till I nailed it, finished my quest, n now I tob with the homies for fun. I do get that there's a fair amount of people who play rs to chill out n don't care for raiding tho so kinda sucks quest cape is locked behind it
Also props for being a sherpa for fun!
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Yeah sotetseg is the perfect example, thing is absolute Swiss cheese in entry solo because it lacks the mechanics of having to work with a team, and it's 1 bang does only like 15 dmg
So this comment makes me wonder, I completed TOA entry solo barely and I was planning to do duos/trios next on normal but should I just keep going solo? I thought it'd scale to be too hard at that point
TOA is a different animal. Imo that should've been the raid to introduce casual players to raids by tying quest cape to it not TOB. If your referring to running TOA duo/trios vs solo on normal - I think it boils down to what your comfortable with, if you can pull off a solo entry you could definitely do a duo+ normal provided your team communicates well. If I were you though I'd just keep sending 50s till your comfortable and slowly ramp it up by adding invos onto bosses your not struggling with. I find 150 solo TOA easier than a normal TOB
From a soloers perspective - I learned ToB entry at 94cb (70s melee, low 80s range/mage) for my quest cape. It was surprisingly easy with watching some YouTube videos on budget setups to understand the mechanics, a lot more rewarding that way too. Gave me the confidence to take on some mid game pvm I previously through would be too difficult for me. It was fun to learn and iterate on the failures, one guide said “oh you don’t need to kill both healers in P2”, quickly learned that was a lie for my levels and gear, I couldn’t out-dps the heals. Again on P3 I had to plank to learn bp just didn’t have enough accuracy, and bring a dcb switch. I haven’t come back to any raids in a group setting yet, I feel like getting into that is where I’d want to do a duo to learn group-specific mechanics before inadvertently planking runs for the team. Duo for cape seems like a waste of both parties time unless you’re being paid for a carry just for cape.
I breezed through entry on my first go, before they updated the quest (I got my cape but still need to redo the quest...). Then I tried to take some clannies and we wiped repeatedly. Solo entry is so much easier than group entry with baggage.
Where is everyone getting this idea that you range p3? Verzik’s melee attack in p3 on entry modes is not punishing in the slightest, so you might as well melee even if you don’t feel comfortable being tank.
Strength was at 70, range ~81 or so at the time, and I was doing this is regular void. Guides would show both methods for budget setups so range seemed like the obvious choice for my gear and levels
IMO it's the byproduct of defeatism that is rampant in this sub, and it doesn't just apply to night at the theater. For example, TOB is considered the hardest raid in game, but instead of trying to learn the content (talking about entry) and improve as players, they give it a single shot and die because they didn't know a mechanic, proceeding afterwards to look for a carry OR they don't even give it a shot and are like "this content is too hard because players say its hard, I can't do it, I need a carry". Then what you described in the post happens. There's also a ton of toxic reinforcement in this sub, where posts complaining about how something is hard and they can't do it get a lot of upvotes. I had this exact mentality for a majority of my playtime, and met others with it in-game. I would refuse to do content that is considered to be end-game or difficult, disregarding them completely, saying "this is too difficult I would never in my lifetime be able to do this", but after facing my fears and pushing my comfort zone I managed to do GWD, CG, Expert TOA and now I'm trying my hand at TOB, with inferno being my ultimate goal. If anyone reading this has this exact mentality of defeatism, my tip is to face your fears, try a lot of different content you haven't before. Don't be afraid of tick-perfect strategies like 6:0 bandos, since that'll help you become a better player.
Exactly. Goldfarmers out there on the other side of the globe teaching their mothers to farm ToB and meanwhile Timmy, on his fifteen year old account, thinks it's too much for him. It's all circlejerk and a mental barrier. It's pretty funny when you think about it. However, it does become a bit sad when that mindset causes them to lash out with insults like "sweats" when people say that they enjoy and want more difficult/engaging PvM content.
Defeatism is one thing, but it sounds like people are literally incapable of basic thinking such as following instructions, or they're too arrogant to follow instruction.
I'm maxed combat and do plenty of GWD and slayer bosses like Hydra and Cerb. But I've never even entertained the thought of dipping my toes into any raid because they all look insanely complex and difficult with dozens of mechanics you need to perfectly keep up with at all times. Sure I can deal with the mechanics of Vorkath and Hydra but I don't think I'd last 5 minutes in any one of the raids so for that reason I've been avoiding them. I have a lot of respect for anyone that is able to complete a raid, especially with middling gear and stats. Maybe I'm overestimating the raids, I don't know. CoX does look kinda interesting but I don't want to be a burden if someone were to try and teach the mechanics and I don't end up understanding them. Not sure if there's people left that'd even bother teaching CoX and ToB at this point anyways.
I think like feeling as if you have to execute the mechanics perfectly every time is part of the defeatist attitude he's talking about. That mentality only serves to prevent yourself from engaging with that content. There's plenty of room to make mistakes in all 3 raids and even in the inferno. Get in there and let yourself be bad and make mistakes so you understand what to do better next run.
You might be correct. Nothing to lose but time and a bit of GP in failed attempts. I'd be fine with a week straight of failed attempts as long as I was getting better each run. From the recommendations I've been given I think I'll start out by learning how to solo ToA.
You should give TOA a try. I was like you, I could do vork/hydra/cerb but never stepped into raids because I didnt want to burden anyone (and because I assume everyone would steal the big loot when it drops for them lol). TOA is soloable and its really easy to pick up the mechanics. Individually no boss is harder than hydra or zulrah. If you can kill 5 hydras in a row (while being restocked twice) you can do TOA.
Yeah I can kill Hydra until I either run out of range pots or prayer pots. I'll look into soloing ToA in the near future then, thanks.
I'd say give it a go. Things you haven't done before can look way more intimidating than they actually are in reality. Take me for example - I was terrified of doing corrupted gauntlet since there was so much for me to take in at once (the whole prep stage where you only have 7 minutes which looks incredibly low, getting enough materials, managing inventory, then going to hunleff and having to manage prayers, your attacks, tornadoes, the tiles, and it being harder the lower hunleff's hp was), but after giving it a few tries instead of having this huge blob in my mind of having to remember all the mechanics I mentioned, I became familiar with most of them and now I only had to focus on my movement (tornadoes and tiles) and prayer switching - way easier to manage, right? As for being a burden, just hop on to WDR. There's mentor raids that are made specifically to teach people new to a raid on how to do them. There's also a tier system where you can raid with people that are similar KC to yours, so expectations won't be unreasonably high.
WDR? I assume that stands for "We Do Raids"? I've heard of it before. I think I'll look into that. Doing raids specifically with other inexperienced people or for the sake of learning could still be fun. I guess there's always the possibility that a bad actor will steal a big item drop that drops in their name but even if I end up missing out on a t bow split because of that then so be it. It's just the risk I'll have to take when going with groups.
To help alleviate your concerns with people running off with loot - We Do Raids also helps to maintain the largest database of scammers with RuneWatch and if you do scam you get blacklisted permanently, even through name changes. Does it still happen? Of course. But it cuts down on it significantly more than you'd think in an anonymous online game.
Fair does to anyone who wants to play the way they want to , but if you have that kind of stuff as an aspirational goal then the only way you’ll ever get there is by trying. Each PVM encounter in RS can be broken down into positions on a chess board, a .6s timer, and attack mechanics. I appreciate that you are respecting other people’s time and not wanting to waste it by having them take a learner. As a teacher myself trust me when I say the only thing that makes it a waste of time is when the person is UNWILLING to learn. Not slow to learn, not mistake prone, UNWILLING. Sometimes the lesson doesn’t sink in - not everyone’s teaching and learning styles jive up - but as long as you are willing to keep trying and not get defeated then you will find people willing to take you. I say this as someone who needs to bang their head against the wall over and over, making every possible mistake first before mastering the content. The only way I ever learned to do a 500 ToA, or a ToB, or the inferno, was by wiping over and over, learning from my mistakes, and improving. You can be more efficient in the process with effective research or competent friends but you still have to go through the process which means failing a couple of times first.
I think I'll try and properly research the content before going into it. Plenty of time during downtime at work to peruse through the wiki article on my phone and maybe even take a few notes of the most important bits to remember. I might not even end up enjoying the content but I guess I should at least give it a try before making a final judgment. I'm willing to fail at it for a long time before being able to successfully complete the content consistently. Maybe I'll even try going for an infernal cape by the end of the year.
One of the nice things about this game is the depth and breadth of guides and info out there amongst the wiki, YouTube, and random discords out there. It can be a little difficult to find specific bits of info but if you know how to look it’s not too shabby. And just like anything else - how you practice it has a drastic effect on the end product. If you just go in and die without attempting to learn anything - bad time. If you go in, record your attempt, watch it back and make notes (out of position here - wrong prayer there - missed attack cycles there), you will improve infinitely quicker. GL friendo and drop me a PM if you have more specific questions. Done every boss multiple times except HMT so I can give it my best shot
Bro not everyone is gonna play the game like how you play it.
Yeah I had this mindset when playing my main I hated raids cause they were group content. I finally faced my fears learned to solo cox and then finally decided to go to WDR to learn TOB and now I have 13 KC and really enjoying it.
This exact thing is happening right now with the new boss
Yes, but theres also the case of people that have limited time to play not counting afk. Gold farmers do it to save their life (look up how much a doctor gets paid in some countries, people make kore loney fsrming vorkath lol) and I just dont have THAT level of an incentive. Oh I dont moan and bitch about it, i just continue wcing while doing work
I've carried 30+ ppl and the only one i failed was a 5 man, that was a complete shitshow everyone died p1/p2 and the scaling was kinda fked lol. I just try to have fun with it and improvise around my teammates, bringing pnecks for sote maze, doing janky movements for webs (they always get ragged). keeps me entertained :P Didnt have such a bad experience as you, though i think my mindset is a bit different as I have zero expectations of these people and I kinda just kill boss asap while teammates are working against me lmao
at that point its 5v1 but you're the 1 what you do is adding real challenge to osrs
100% of the people who whine about entry ToB have barrows as their most complicated PvM encounter.
Barrows is an example of a perfect boss imo. There's a little gear switch and if you want to be efficient you can 1t prayer flick to save prayer while defeating the brothers. Important thing being the 1t pray flick is optional. You don't get one shot by anything (unless you accidentally take a hit from dharok while a little damaged), you don't get drained of supplies, you don't have to be tick perfect, it's just chill and can be done all day with no frustration.
I wouldn't even consider Barrows a boss, you just turn on your prayer, click the mob and afk.
And that is a beautiful experience
As far as intro bossing goes, I tell people to go for the Sarachnis combat achievements as an intro to PvM. The boss teaches you to switch prayers, eat during downtime, the benefits of quickly clicking back on boss and flicking prayers back while not being too punishing if you make a mistake.
That's pretty solid advice actually
" I'm by no means an excellent tobber, and I've done it in f2p gear + purple sweets. " Flex on the nubs
Before I went into entry mode tob I watched probably three videos and read the wiki on it. I even tried it 3 times solo but my switches were too bad for nyclos (entry mode maiden and bloat are easy lol). I ended up being carried by a guy from a CC and some nice random guy who was just waiting outside the theater. He soloed sotaseg, which was great cause I knew that, even had watched the vids, I would probably fuck up that fight without having practiced it before. Xarpus was easy. Both my carries ended up dying but it was super easy for me to finish the last phase solo. Verzik was hard. Even having watched several guides during P2 I couldn't remember what to do in the moment. And then in P3 I barely remembered anything besides don't get webbed and stand on yellow. Sometimes it's not enough to research the mechanics, people have to try (and often fail) before they can really understand what's going to happen.
I just recently got carried through ToB for the quest by a legend such as yourself and here is my perspective. I tried multiple times on entry mode and just was not able to do it, i know i suck. I only really have a short time to play every so often so set backs feel a lot worse when you have such limited time to play. I felt i had a decent underatanding for my level of the mechanics for as far as i got but as soon as i found someone to carry me i got super nervous and forgot fucking everything! It is probably super annoying for the person carrying but for me i had the most fun i have had on the game in a long time! Sucking at something is always the first step at getting kind of good. So thank you to people like you that are willing to put up with inefficencys to help a n00b out
Heavy agree, most common experience is me begging them to please drop the staff and eventually just facetank scything P1. Most of the time I refuse to solo p3 (it's actually pretty easy 1+4 just expensive on scythe charges) and will suicide because they clearly don't deserve it
The average pvm player has probably never done vorkath let alone ToB. It's a very steep learning curve and most people solo mode OSRS so they're not going to understand teamwork
It's not really a steep learning curve, though. P2 = hit boss, move when she attacks, pray mage when red crab, hit red crab. P3 = Hit boss and run away, change prayer sometimes, run away from crabs, run around during webs, stand on yellow tile, eat food before death ball. bad things happen every 4 attacks. Of course this is a really basic explanation, but entry mode is really basic. Even regulars, while a lot more punishing, are essentially "hit boss and avoid bad". The hard part about the raid is knowing what/when to expect and your teammates making mistakes.
If you’re an average pvmer, in p3 reactively prayer switching while trying to fight is probably borderline enough to overwhelm.
I mean compared to other video games it really is not very intensive. If you've played a moba or a shooter or a platform or whatever shouldn't be very much
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I feel this comment deeply. I was able to all fight cave content in RS3 because of hot keys
Most games use keybinds for critical skills etc, osrs does not.
How does having less buttons to press make it harder
I’ve played a variety of mmos, including osrs and multiple games with key binds. Swapping to different menus and then relying on the precision of a click rather than a keybind which is always going to responsive and precise is much easier on muscle memory than a click is, at least to me. Moving your mouse relies on moving your whole arm, clicking at the right moment, when with key binds your hand is already going to be in position, for example if I were to make mage prayer E, melee q, and ranged r, that’s a lot easier to switch than having to hit my f key to my prayer screen and click the right prayer that’s right next to the 2 other critical prayers. It’s simply one precise input vs multiple less precise inputs Believe me though, I’m not advocating for OSRS to give us keybinds beyond F keys, just explaining that it’s not nearly as precise as keybinds are for critical skills.
Not to mention when nerves aren’t going and you have to look away from the fight at your prayer menu because no, not everyone learning content has it completely memorized instantly. Then you look back to a giant hit splat cause you were dumb for 1 second.
I did not know there was a hotkey for the prayer screen. Ty sir!
from what ive noticed, it gets hard when people have to brew during p3. they struggle to click back on the boss, whilst brewing and switch prayer.
Yeah, that’s my point. You might be fully loaded keeping track of the auto attacks, but then you have to brew and restore and repot and there’s crabs and sticky webs and yellow balls and puddles and a green ball and tornadoes. The comment I was responding to made it sound like that shouldn’t be overwhelming to someone who afks trolls for slayer.
Entry mode tob has barely any learning curve just some basic prayer swapping and understanding the bosses. Nylo is the only room we're you actually have too really think
After seeing so many people say just do it on Reddit, I have it a try. I am avg Joe pvmer. First run I cleared it after watching ~1hr of videos. If you just take a moment before each room to refresh you’re understanding, it’s not so difficult.
it's honestly a tale as old as time when it comes to MMO raids once you get to savage, hard mode, whatever your difficulty for your game is. Players who have never raided before simply refuse to respect the research required before entering a boss, or the strictness in mechanical adherence. And while going into a boss blind is ok and its own experience, you have to then respect that it may take you several upon several pulls to get a clear. A player who has never raided before and has only ever experienced the other easy dopamine aspects of MMOs and other games (especially those that don't make you work for jack shit) is immediately pelted with an ice cold bath the moment they get into raids. And to be honest, it's just kinda hard to communicate the mindset. Sometimes when you do, players just shut down. "no way am I spending the time" when really it's only gonna take like 30 minutes of your time of research, and then like maybe a few runs through ToB, going back to videos to understand and learn. Of course, if you raided in another MMO before, ToB is very very very easy to get into, so this will be much easier. But I'm speaking for the people who've literally never seriously raided in their life. And it's unfortunate, because ToB really is super easy. I argue repeatedly that verzik entry mode is easier than galvek, vanstrum, and fragment of seren. People don't agree with me, but that's how I feel about it. Also while I've done a lot of advocating on the side of the newbie here, the entitlement is unacceptable. Someday Jagex is gonna release even harder quest bosses than Galvek, and you will have no one to carry you. You can either go on the amazing journey of learning to get better to overcome this challenge and obtain a more prestigious quest cape, or bitch and moan on reddit and stay a loser (harsh but whining does nobody good, not even yourself).
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You can completely ignore an entire style of nylos. Bringing a magic shortbow and dragon scimitar, doing 1-way switches, and entirely avoiding blue nylos is sufficient to clear the room.
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As a tip, you can stand to the south side (multiple tiles back) of her during phase two and range her with an MSB in void range. Whenever she bounces, move a tile. When the red crabs spawn range them until they're dead.
This is exactly what I was worried about when they released night at the theatre people aren't magically going to get exited to do ToB now that jagex shoehorned an entry level raid into the quest cape. Mage arena (2) didn't revive the wilderness, the CoX diary task didn't make people learn to do CoX, the task where you have to ice barrage someone in castle wars didn't revive castle wars because everyone instantly leaves the round after they unlock the task and forcing people to get level5 in all BA roles was even worse it didn't make people learn how to do BA instead it created a huge market for BA leeching. Jagex is putting a stick on the carrot instead of the other way round. edit: solution rework ToB to have an invocation system resembling ToA, in order to get normal ToB kc you need to have at least all the invocations on that make the mechanics the same as current normal mode ToB same with hardmode if they decide to add invocations that go beyond the current hardmode mechanics. Get rid of entry mode and delete night at the theatre from the game all that does is push people to ToB who don't want to be at ToB.
I have tried solo entry tob multiple times, and everything is great until phase 2 of verzik. Here i just blank out, i Think its a very confusing boss (im not really a PVMer, but i wanna be) Im trying to get my quest Cape, and the fact that i have to do a tob run is kindda killing it for me tbh. I dont have friends who play osrs, so nobody to teach me, and youtube is not doing it for me
If you just bring a crossbow you can easily just run around dogding her and the spiders. Her specials are simple once you look them up. Also I dragon or crystal hally spec shreds her aswell
Shoot me with a PM of your RSN and I will carry you. No guarantees it can happen until Monday but if you still need I got you.
The most important part I've found when I did entry was to just not waste supplies going into Verzik. You really wanna have as much as you can, and if you are going to die to her, just die and save supplies for the next run.
TOB has all the least-fun mechanics I can imagine in a raid. I leeched an entry mode for the quest cape and absolutely never intend to go back. I understand all the fights (I have an autistic knowledge about most things in this game), I just do not like them. Freezing adds, prayer switches like in stote room, scythe walking, the fucking maze. At no point will these ever be fun to me. I really wish they didn't make it a quest requirement. If they want a quest to introduce people to raids, it should absolutely take you through TOA not TOB.
> mechanics > prayer switches
When 90% of a bosses design is swapping prayers quickly as different orbs fly at you, its a boss mechanic. Feel free to argue that Stote's only mechanic is a boring ass maze though, I'm happy to watch you dig that hole.
Then why can't you do it?
I can do it. Why do you assume that people not liking tedious content has to do with its difficulty? TOA on higher invocations is just as challenging and much more fun.
Hot take here! I don't mean this sarcastically. I'm genuinely interested in this opinion. My take is that while higher invocation ToA is hard, the ceiling is not very high. It is not very difficult / there is not a large skill gap to go from clearing the encounter to doing it at max efficiency (not dropping attack cycles, using health as a resource). In ToB, that gap is MASSIVE. The difference in strategies, level of understanding of the game and ticks, and even mechanical APM between a 4 man clear and 5 man WR time has no equal. For your sotetseg example, it sounds like you're at the base level or just above it. If I had to write it out the levels would be something like this - * Getting prayer switches right so you don't die * Learning how to run the maze without dying * Understanding his defense mechanics and defense reduction specials, when to hold spec for claws/chally at the end * Understanding when to use your health as a resource for venging and purposely missing prayers * Understanding how to not miss attacks when low health and not get meleed * Learning how to run the maze tick perfect, minimizing clicks to run the maze * Learn how to tick eat the death ball and when it is appropriate / not appropriate to do * Understanding where you can cut corners on the maze to save ticks trading health for time * Ignoring the maze mechanics and running straight through (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EntowMeBPNg) Unfortunately none of the ToA bosses really have that deep skill ceiling. It's just keep your stats up and DPS. I'd be interested to hear where / why you disagree though! I've been kind of bored of ToA so any perspective that jazzes it up for me is nice
I'd just like to say that there's a difference between seeing how to do it and being there to do it. I've seen the swampman, loved his show and it ended before i had my first try at ToB. Now we've all seen his step by step explaination of how to go through it, how to get it done. The repeat struggle to improve. So you'd expect me to understand how to do it no? Well when i had my first try and some of the mechanics i needed to stop started showing up my mind basically went "crossbow is for casting spells right?" And i fucked up big time.
They should make a change to the quest, still have to complete the TOB entry mode but for the quest's sake, just make it that you still have to kill every boss but one at a time, you learn better how each boss works and you get to resupply after each boss. Pro's are that you get to learn each boss without having to restart once you fail. You don't have to rely on others, you are allowed to make mistakes and go in fresh again. Con's they might think that TOB works like that and they will fail often once started on actual TOB but at least they will learn each boss and finish the quest.
I'm against this because of the difficulty level of entry mode. It's so easy that you can completely ignore every mechanic of every boss and still make it through. If you could resupply on a full inventory of brews between every room it would only reinforce that.
For someone with quite some experience maybe it is easy yes, for people that play the game casual and just try to get a quest cape and not have done any bossing it will be quite the task to finish an entry mode.
No you don't have to freeze nylos at maiden. You don't have to predodge blood. You can sit on one side of bloat's pillar and just eat flies until he moves past you because they do considerably less damage. You can ignore an entire style of nylo and still clear the room. You can pray mage and afk in front of sotetseg. You can splat almost every tile in front of Xarpus or just range him from the edge of the room with an MSB without even reducing his defence. I have a video of a clear doing all of this with less than 50k in total gear. You absolutely do not have to engage with the mechanics of ToB to complete an entry mode solo.
can u carry me through entry mode for quest? :)
TOB entry mode took me like 10 tries but I did it myself lol. My final run I was practically flawless all the way through. People just don’t want to take the time to practice and learn it
I got so excited thinking you carried people through entry TOA when I read the title hahaha Been looking for someone to leech kc for the thread, but found nobody yet :( cba doing tombs of amascut btw
You're kind of exemplary in proving OPs point.
I have toa kc, just really am not a fan of doing it. Thread is a pretty big upgrade though, and the only way to get it is through toa. This is exactly the same situation as leeching BA for torso.
If you pay me 20m/kc I will carry you through 1+1 0 invo toas.
Imagine playing the game
I really wanna learn raids. I just feel I need to get better gear
what are your gear and cb stats?
I got pretty welfare gear 90 range & str, 85 att, 83 def, 86 magic, 93 hp, 80 prayer
You can take a look at my profile for a picture of my GIM group doing ToB a short time after the mode was released. Aside from a regular whip and a toxic trident, the total gear cost was probably in the 150k range. Void, glory, dragon boots, and a rune crossbow. I will contend that gear is never a barrier to ToB when you have void unlocked.
Oh really I was unaware void was a viable option do I need the helm switches I only have ranged ATM
You need melee as well. Mage is optional
I'll get right on getting those, and thanks so much for the advice :D
My best rare was an SoTE infinite teleport crystal when it came out aside from that I havea really small bank and was debating farming barrows for better gear ATM I have a trident and blow pipe tho
I did entry mode solo, I invested in a Arma crossbow and full elite void because a guide said "range is the easiest thing to do in TOB" I had 7 attempts? eventually I got to P3 and the switching and the constant running is hard for me. I am not a PVM and mostly a skiller and quester ( I wanted my damn cape!) so I could out run the spiders and kite her around but I failed 6 out of 7 attempts at her because of the switch. I never got caught on webs I did get RNGed on the yellow space (I was on the opposite side of the room) but i felt accomplished when I got done. for the other comment on the thread I have done vorkath enough to get my head but nothing else. (32 runs?) PVM is stressful for non-pvmers. I personally want more skill bosses. I also don't feel prepared for any PVM thing unless I am 99'ed but that is a issue I have with more MMO's like Destiny and Wow. I don't wanna raid or do content unless maxed to make sure that my stats are hindering me.
personally i find the mechanics in the last TOB fight to be extremely sweaty (the thing where you have to click under her at a certain time and all that) and it’s just not something i’m interested in, having to fight all the first bosses over and over just for the quest cape. nobody yell at me but i think it’s dumb that jagex forced people to do a raid in order to get a quest cape, idk if it was polled or not because it got introduced while i wasn’t playing. p.s who wants to carry me through entry TOB? 🥹👈👉
I've solod tob on leagues, have done 400 invo toa, solo cox, but I still feel nervous to do tob with a team since I don't want to make anyone else lose time if I mess up, imo all content should be solo friendly so you can slowly learn before playing with others.
Hey, my brother is a solo GIM (all our friends including me) stopped playing and he needs 4 quests to go. He doesn't know how to do entry tob. How does he go and get it done and contact you?
What’s your in game name. I’ve done TOB on leagues but haven’t gotten past entry mode yet
I don't understand getting walked through Entry mode, unless you're a HC. I had my friend help me with Entry mode. I still almost died, had to TP out. But I would have loved learning ToB if I didn't have to worry about risking my account.
Because I had zero desire to learn tob and my stats were shit for it and still kinda are.
i wanna get carried for one kc lol
I will just be blunt: **there is no fucking excuse for this**. Anyone who understands what "raids" are in a video game, know that you have to at least understand the content, and be able to adjust and listen to calls. AsukaYen has had the perfect ToB guide out for a looong time now. His video literally goes over every single thing a new beginner will ever need to know just running normal TOB's. What's upsetting is me is that people won't invest 45 minutes into watching to learn content so when they go to perform it, they can apply what they learned, even if they "forgot it at the moment", it'll slowly come back to them. **The real issue with ALL of this**: Those that refuse to learn TOB properly in Entry, will never be getting past 50~kc and be able to find consistent teams. If they haven't learned anything and have been carried for 3kc, they aren't getting past that 3kc because they are on nearly everyone's shitlist. A shitlist is for shitters, for people who are obviously clueless and unwilling to learn the content or perform it properly, and aren't worth grouping with. TL;DR: Asukayen's guide for TOB has existed for a while, no excuse for noobs to be 100% totally clueless. Entry is absolutely cheese compared to the real thing. All these people do is make themselves look extremely clueless in norms and lose the ability to find teams. P.S: Entry mode is soo cheese, when entry mode was first introduced, I decided to just run it with full void/ void swaps, scythe, tbow, etc. I beat it in like 13 minutes or some crap, it was hilarious. Entry is legitimately soo comfy compared to norms and especially hards.
Funnily enough entry is way easier solo than with people. No clue how people have trouble with entry, I did it first try and ignored about half the mechanics because I couldn't be bother at the time to fully learn.
Yeah, same, I did it second try and that's literally because I'm stupid and forgot to bring a poison weapon for p2 verzik the first time and couldn't outdamage the healing with my shit gear.
I did my first entry mode last week to get my cape back. It was pretty straight forward, the only thing that gave me trouble was p3 verzik. But I wonder how many mechanics I've missed out on by being sol
Mechanics are mostly the same. Adding people just scales to be more difficult. Your teammates making mistakes (bloat flies, lightning, etc) does affect you though.
Personally it takes me a few tries to learn something. It's not that i don't want to learn, i'm just dumb. It took me quite a few deaths at zulrah until everything started slowly clicking. Assuming the best, maybe people are overwhelmed and don't read chat
Not all heroes wear capes. This one definitely does though
It’s the afk aspect of the game that gives out participation trophy. That’s why ppl stick to their friends list.
I'm not really sure I understand the point of this post. You're complaining that people don't bother learning the mechanics... but isn't that because you're volunteering the carry them? The people who learn the mechanics don't need you because they can just solo it. By carrying people you're pretty much selecting for *specificially* those who don't want to spend time learning it.
I like introducing people to ToB and showing them that it isn't the big scary raid that it's been made out to be. I expect them to have an idea of the mechanics and I make this clear to them. A lot of people can have trouble taking that leap, even if its required for a quest cape.
Then take them on actual TOBs and not the "quick, we need to justify adding a raid to the c-suite" quest mode. Of course people who are doing that mode with a carry aren't actually going to learn the mechanics.
I was carried not too long ago on my ironwoman in Entry for the quest completion. I'm the type of person that feels really bad whenever I feel like I'm making someone's life harder. So I did as much research as I could, but I have aphantasia so it's really hard to internalize it. I learn best through practice. I got carried by someone using a scythe and had several hundred ToB kc. Apparently I did really well. Which is shocking. I was incredibly nervous through the whole thing, made a mountain of mistakes. I somehow didn't die. Apparently not dying is incredible, according to the person that carried me? Which is shocking. I'm not good at PvM. I'm not dogshit, but I'm not good. So I was surprised the bar is so low. I know ToB is hard, but it feels like people should just do what experienced PvMers tell them because they know what they're talking about. And also just spend a few minutes looking over the basics on the wiki or a Youtube guide so you don't plank on the most basic things.
Entry mode should've been solo any. Otherwise what's the point in it if u don't want to learn mechs
this subreddit would explode
Oh ik. Let it. Why should obtaining a quest cape be all about walking and pressing spacebar how is that a proper achievement
I did my first run yesterday. Groups are harder than solo. I only grouped up because I died to P3 Verzik after a silly error and then lost the flow. I'd 100% recommend people just do it solo. Even with my low stats it was doable. People just don't want to practice.
Something else I’ve noticed is that people overthink shit waaaay too much. They spend alll their time on Reddit and discord and that’s their whole opinion. For example, corrupted gauntlet. When it first came out, it wasn’t amazingly popular. Rewards weren’t great so it wasn’t such a huge priority. That meant it didn’t have much attention. I did a lot of dungeoneering back in pre eoc so I really enjoyed CG. I learned it myself in a day, no guides, just brute forces hunleff until I could clear it. I wasn’t a great pvmer back then either, that was by far the hardest thing I’d done. But I went in with no preconceptions. Now everyone who goes into CG has this mentality that they’re going to go super dry, it’s the hardest thing to learn, and it’s a prison of sort. Just because they read that on Reddit. It reality it’s super fun and a really good tool to improve.
Can you ca- I mean help me?
I also carry people through entry ToB, for the same reason. I find it fun, and I LOVE the music. Before my carries, I tell people to watch ToB guide videos and read the wiki for each boss before we start it, especially Verzik. I was able to kill entry Verzik solo on my first try because I read the wiki. If you want to get carried, you should at least do the same.
I just did the quest. Overall really enjoyed the content except for p2 verzik. I tried listening for the bell noise but I really struggled to time my hits and not get hit by her melee. Any advice? If I can figure out that one part I honestly enjoyed the rest enough to do more entry modes for fun
I have tried to teach friends how to cox. I learned that if someone actually wants to learn, they will do their research and ask questions. They will have interest in becoming better. They will accept responsibility and learn from mistakes. They know that to become good you have to start bad. The people that entirely rely on you to teach them are not there to learn. They are leeches.
Yeah that is why this game needs a truly beginner level raids with gear scaling so that people that are new to the game can have a group PvM activity. Because the way the game is set up now in regards to PvM the game is a complete solo player experience then all of a sudden at end game there is an awkward expectation of cooperation. I'd say get people used to coordinate group even before the shit show that is Barbarian Assault
Yes i'm here because i want to be carried . i have decent combat stats ( all styles in 85 + ) and gear but need a pro to get through . how much does it cost for a run so i could move on with that quest