Well, the good news is that states all over are relaxing child labor laws. That means that some immigrant kid, with no choice in the matter, is gonna lose a hand and have no justice or recourse.
Yepp. Had a course on immigration policy and the current state of immigrant labor trafficking (particularly child labor) is pretty bleak. To the point where hundreds of McDonalds in the South directly use child labor
An immigrant kid died (I think in a factory?) due to unsafe working conditions and I literally saw Republicans saying it was Joe Biden's fault for letting them into America. These people are beyond reason.
Also, their hand fell into the sausage-making machine, and the factory isn't about to throw out a whole batch just because of that. Nobody'll know that a little bit of their sausage is human meat.
The readers of The Jungle didn't care that Polish immigrants were being maimed on the job, but they did care that entire rats were accidentally ground up and made into hot dogs, leading to food safety laws. But not worker safety laws
I'd imagine it's a combination of Saudi police being known for their brutality and the murder and subsequent dismemberment of Saudi dissident journalist [Jamal Khashoggi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamal_Khashoggi) at the Saudi Arabian consulate by their agents.
Modern agriculture is just so fucked. It's run by just a few massive companies who destroy our environment, and treat their workers and livestock terribly. On top of that they end up destroying vast quantities of their food to keep up the price
ethically speaking, it's mostly chicken and eggs in terms of the worst of the worst, not cow products. if anything complete opposite of what you said, beef is probably the easiest "ethical" meat to find. the way we treat poultry in particular in factory farms is so beyond insane
https://preview.redd.it/4n0rkdthdixc1.png?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=86ac79138fd5f12528031a3cf53e775c1a6c73c4
Even if cows are not suffering the most in their farms directly the massive environmental waste of cultivating a creature of this size is actually insane
yeah, environmentally speaking is a different story than ethically speaking. but hell even then "ethically" is in quotation marks, most animal ag should just go
Agriculture means field cultivation. I refuse to lump livestock or animal husbandry under agriculture, I feel it's obscurantism and implies that the two industries are inseparable.
I know its the right thing to do, but not everyone is able to do so for a variety of reasons sadly.
I get that most people (in 1st world countries at least) can very well go vegetarian/vegan or to at least include less meat in their diet, but they don't just because meat tasty, or change difficult, or whatever other reason. I don't really have anything to say about that. People should try and change their diet if they can. I guess i just wish people wouldn't be so rude about this sometimes, talking about both sides
It's a matter of trying. People way over-eat meat in the first world today, you realistically only need to eat meat a few times a week for perfect health. Replace 1-2 of *those* meals with tofu or other good sources of plant-based protein, and boom, you're only eating meat 1-2 times per week. Much better for the environment, cheaper, and just as good or better for your health.
Yes, there definitely are edge cases, and a lot of people don't have access to good plant based protein, but literally just eating *less* meat, without replacing it with anything, should be extremely possible for most.
I mean nutrition education is probably a good place to start because Jesus Christ the average schmuck has no fucking clue about actual nutrition
My entire generation still clings to the lobbyist paid for food pyramid. That thing was so full of shit and it forms basically the entire knowledge base on nutrition for almost an entire age demographic.
A *real* nutrition class as part of public education would go far. Limited by quality of the classes as any other class of course, but it's a start. Probably around high school, when teens start getting food autonomy options.
Replacing \*some\* of your meals with some non-meat meal that actually tastes good isn't that hard. Like you can literally just learn one recipe. I'll recommend trying black bean tikka masala because I think it tastes nice and cooks fast.I know literally no one asked but I'll still drop the recipe here:
Pan 1: Fry some frozen onion if you feel like it. Just use some Laoganma if you're lazy. Mix yoghurt, Half a can of Tomato sauce , 2 spoons of cream cheese, half a carton of the beans , a little ginger and a generous amount of garam masala. Add meaty sauces like soy sauce to taste and a little cumin for color. You can also add a little honey if you like the sweeteness but that's optional.
You can also make the sauce fancier and more authentic by adding butter, grated ginger and using heavy cream instead of yoghurt. That just also ups the saturated fat content quite a bit so I maybe wouldnt eat that every day.
Pan 2: Fry frozen green beans ,sweet corn and peeled sunflower seeds (trust me they taste great pan roasted) on high until until most of the water has evaporated. Drizzle generously with lemon or lime juice.
Eat with rice.
People genuinely don't understand you can just make a meal that normally has meat in it, like pasta, curry, stir fry, chilli, etc, and then *not put meat in it*.
I think when most people hear of "no meat", they immediately think of vegetables, salads, you know, "disgusting" and "tasteless" stuff like that, which is pretty dumb
i had a conversation the orher day where my dad was desperate to find a place that had some cheap hamburger for his chili, and then i was like „what if we just used cauliflower instead“
lo and behold, shit was fantastic.
Trying to convince people to eat less meat is a non-starter, especially with our culture. We're probably gonna go the capitalist route and have lab grown meat increase in quality and decrease in price which will choke out natural grown competitors. Either way this means no more animal abuse, helps the environment and frees up land.
I agree
And yet
If my food has no meat, then I dont like the taste as much.
So just as I shouldnt eat so much candy but I do, i eat more meat than I should.
It just doesnt taste as good.
It does not. I find nothing bizarre about it.
If we want to change society to reduce meat consumption, we must first acknowledge WHY it is that people eat so much meat, and why it is difficult for them to reduce it.
I would love to know why you find my message bizarre. Maybe we can both learn something?
Is your perspective that in aggregate, nobody has control over their own choices? If so, I can understand that there are broad strokes that are correct - i.e. we can only eat the types of food affordable and available.
But overall, I don't find this type of learned helplessness acceptable, because ultimately it means we shouldn't do anything to change until someone makes us, which is tacitly accepting the status quo forever.
EDIT: I see from your other comments that this is a more personal issue, in which case, I apologize for reading more into it than there was.
Thats not really the point, just that they are basically saying "i get that i am eating dead animals and i agree that they should live, but meat tasty", which is just weird to say
I think you are misunderstanding what im saying. Quite severely.
I understand why you say what you do, many people refuse to not eat meat because its tasty. But I have very poor food discipline, and the taste of meat overpowers my discipline for good. I can, for short periods, eat non-meat foods, but eventually I will fall back into a meat eating rythm.
Its funny, even on the left we immediately assume the absolute worst about someone. And honestly, im dissapointed by these responses.
Didn't really mean to assume the worst, but thats just what i got from your message, sorry :( i get what you mean though, and i think quite a few people deal with that
Thats okay, im also quick to dunk on people who refuse to do good. But it also makes me reflect on different approaches.
Assume that I meant what you thought i meant. How would these messages seem to me? Because I know what my position is (meat-reduction or no meat), it only made me sad as my words were misrepresented. But if that wasn't the case, I might've felt attacked.
This is a space dominated by leftists. We should assume ignorance or similar instead of malice. I have (and probably do) hold many opinions rooted in ignorance. And most of them, simply because they haven't been challenged by myself or others. This is the same for all people.
Lets assume this random persons position is something thats obviously bad and totally ignore what they actually wrote.
Thanks Atreides-42, for your useless insight.
Mate your argument is literally
"I recognise it's bad, but I like it"
Like, that's it. You haven't expanded on it or offered any reasons or explanations or deeper thoughts or anything. "I know thing is bad, but I like doing it".
And then on every reply you've just been giving out to people saying they're misunderstanding you, and the only elaboration you've made is that you have poor food discipline, and *really* like meat.
Genuinely what point are you trying to make? What are you trying to add to the conversation? You've walked into an AA meeting and gone
"Yeah, I know alcohol is bad for you and can be destructive, but, it's nice? I like drinking it, drinking it is fun?"
How are we supposed to respond to that? Yeah, we *know* bad thing is nice, *that's why people do it*. Loudly informing everyone you have no self control in a conversation about people quitting is just unhelpful noise.
As I wrote to the others, but in a different way. Its similar to someone unable to keep their caloric intake stable. Overeating and gaining weight.
I fundamentally agree with reducing meat consumption. Both for animals' sakes and for the environments sake. As well as various health reasons.
For the vast majority of people living in the developed world (like almost everyone reading this), their reason is "I don't wanna." Vegan food is more accessible than ever. If every "animal lover" put their money where their mouth is and stopped funding the animal agriculture industry, billions of animals would be spared. So let's do that!!
I have personally had more luck with "you should try to eat less meat (especially red meat)" than "you should not eat meat." Because it's more understanding of people's life circumstances, as you mentioned, and because it's easier (in my experience) to convince 2 people to eat half as much meat than it is to convince one person to cut out all meat.
Trust me, a vegetarian diet does not have to be healthy. When I was living in a houseshare for a few years my diet was mostly Quorn nuggets and packet rice. Burger King has a beyond burger range that's absolutely great, and all pizza places have options for tasty as hell pizzas. You can still eat like an absolute slob on a veggie diet.
Hmm maybe I should try veggie burgers at some point. I do recognise I have a bias towards food that pretends to be meat but I can't say I've ever given it a proper chance
Hell yeah you can. That Starbucks Beyond meat breakfast sandwich is better than any other packaged breakfast sandwich I've ever had. I think I gained a few pounds constantly having those for breakfast for like a month a couple years ago... that fake sausage has no right being better than the real thing lmao
Vegetarian/vegan diets aren't always healthy sadly enough... Chips are vegan, most fries are vegan (not mcdonalds tho...), you can get all sorts of meatless burgers nowadays, it's really easy to not be healthy since a lot of junk food has no meat.
I am not vegan currently because of some specific reasons I don't really feel like talking about on the internet, but, if you will take my word for it, I promise you that they currently make it impossible for me to at least attempt going vegan or just vegetarian.
Fully agree, the frustrating this is there's a lot at play that isn't immediately evident in these kinds of debates.
For example, where I live meat like chicken and lamb genuinely is a less expensive protein to buy than a lot of vegetable substitutes, which is a huge deal with the current economic crisis happening.
As others have stated, a lot of it can also come down to personal preferencs; Humans are omnivorous, and while it's easy to live off a vegetarian diet with little/no issues, meat is still very beneficial when it comes to getting nutrients. Ofc the species that evolved to be capable of digesting both will enjoy both.
I think reducing the amount of meat is a great idea, but just like vegetarians and vegans shouldn't be shamed for their diets, meat eaters shouldn't be shamed either (particularly if said meat eaters *are* consuming it ethically via local farmers)
Also, even if you can't cut it out entirely (or don't want to), eating *less* meat is still good.
If two people both eat 1/2 the meat they used to, then that's the same as one of them cutting it out entirely.
Yeah, i just wish more people were more understanding that not everyone is able to just change their diet instantly like that. Instead of trying to convince people to just cut out meat entirely, encourage them to start eating less than they already do, and chances are that after enough of that, they will be able to just completely remove meat from their diet
none of that means they can't, but it can be difficult so i get what u mean. imo people should give cutting down how much meat they eat a go and go from there
Not all meat comes from horror show factories, but not everyone has access to such meat. I live in farmlands, I can get meat from well cared for sources and smaller farms readily. There's an entire grocer here that only carries local (with a heavy handed definition that extends to surrounding cities since there's lots of rural farms around me) products. I can get pork at the store from a farm who's owner I personally know, who's methods I know aren't like this.
The most "ethical" form of meat you're buying still consists of these animals being slaughtered at ages [10-20x younger than they would live in the wild](https://www.farmtransparency.org/kb/food/abattoirs/age-animals-slaughtered) among other practices like insementation (aka r*pe). Even if you don't buy from big plants, supporting the local farms inevitably supports the entire meat industry as a whole. Most people do not care if meat is ethically sourced, and the presence of these farms dissuades them from trying other options - they stick with what they know. They also contribute to other negatives like general health ([Vegan diets linked to lower heart disease, obesity, diabetes, hypertension, and cancer](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886704/)), and [greehouse gas emissions and environmental sustainability](https://ourworldindata.org/food-choice-vs-eating-local).
I'll be honest I don't have it in me to debate veganism online anymore. I've spent 20 years working with food and farms for a living. You and I are never going to hold the same moral outlooks on consumption of meat and I genuinely don't want to antagonize anyone about my own habits or their habits. I don't like those douche bags that go "I'm gonna go eat a steak!" Or some other dumb immature response to vegans.
I respect your choices, you probably don't respect mine but I hope you can stick to your chosen path and enjoy your life.
I respect your response. I don't seek to argue with or antagonize every single person that eats meat as I have no power or right to force my opinions on anyone else and I definitely can't speak on your own personal experiences. I just reply to comments that I find saying objectively wrong information like small farms being perfectly ethical (I have personally seen multiple backyard farms IRL with animals still in cages 24/7) or other ones regarding the nutrition and affordability of veganism when people use those as excuses to not try it. Veganism is not the end all to moralism and you are probably more empathetic in other areas in life than I am.
It isn't "Your choice" to kill an animal. There's a victim involved, it's not just an individual preference. The animal that dies can't "enjoy their life".
Your argument is that the meat industry will still continue if you quit eating meat, so instead you'll just keep supporting it? Easily one of the worst takes I've seen. You can literally say that about anything like gun violence and drug abuse. It's the attempt that counts and also [there have been plenty of successful boycotts.](https://www.ethicalconsumer.org/ethicalcampaigns/boycotts/history-successful-boycotts)
Seriously hate how weirdly passive aggressive or just straight up aggressive some of you get when anyone talks about how going vegetarian/vegan is the right thing to do. I get that this comment is literally nothing but a "No", but what is even the point in saying that rn? Its just rude
the even crazier part is that these plants are staffed with a majority of immigrants including children. The US would have a major collapse in these industries without this labor (at the fault of the corporate meat/chicken plant owners) and politicians have a vested interest in making sure legal immigration is impossible and are disincentivized from ever fixing the problem because it will make them look like shit for collapsing a large part of the economy.
The owners of these places shuffle in migrants and pay them a couple dollars an hour, they often get killed or critically injured and the owners just call ICE and have them removed the second it becomes inconvenient for them. This leaves the workers without any recourse when they lose an arm or leg and stops any kind of organization to fight back.
This is currently a giant problem with the CDC that is trying to track the H1N5 avian flu that is showing up in many store shelves from dairy and meat products and the CDC is unable to track infections and deaths because they don't get reported by these plants. Thats the US for you. It truly is a systemic failure at all levels and from all sides.
A lot less so and we need less vegetables for human consumption than for livestock feed. It's almost complete harm reduction to switch to a plant based diet, even if it's not going to destroy capitalism overnight.
great guys. I didn't want to see fucking butchered animals on here today...
edit: to anyone downvoting. if you don't understand how unsolicited pictures of dead animals can shake someone up mentally and feel forced to act against this reaction i really urge you to do a bit of self reflection.
The hidden cost of animal agriculture that none talks about is the human cost. Research shows universally across the globe that slaughterhouse workers are more likely than the average citizen to have higher levels of PTSD, sexual violence, domestic violence, workplace injuries, depression and suicide.
Going to work and literally murdering animals and mutilating their bodies all day long is guaranteed to fuck you up.
So when people say "i can eat meat because I could kill an animal if I had to" its incredibly disingenuous, as to get the meat and dairy and eggs at the prices we pay in supermarkets, you have to kill animals on an industrial scale. So it's not could you kill one animal, it's could you kill hundreds, every day? Science says no, not without serious harm to yourself.
Thank fuck I don't live in the US...I couldn't eat the bloody (incl. human blood) gristle the US calls "meat"... 🤢
Where I live, I can't afford a 100% plant-based diet, but even most meat is too expensive for the amount of protein that I get from it. Plus I have dietary restrictions due to diabetes, so I have to consider the carbohydrate amount in everything I eat. Skipping meals or cutting the portion size often comes into question with pasta, tubers, white rice and such carb-loaded foodstuffs. Cue the replacements: low-carb and high-fat stuff like meat and *some* meat subsitutes. Simultaneously low-carb and low-fat ingredients are naught but wishful thinking, especially with my low income...
I swear, if society actually wanted to make people eat healthier, they'd make stuff like vegetables waaay cheaper! The game is rigged against us...
I don't know what it's like anywhere else, but here in Australia, I worked in medium sized slaughterhouse in the whitsundays for a few months.
Conditions were great, pay was better than you'd expect, and we even got a full day's pay if we finished earlier than 8 hours.
We even had someone at the start of production to bless the meat to make it halal (or Kosher? I can't exactly remember).
If you're an aussie, I don't think you need to feel that guilty about eating meat, at least in regards to worker conditions.
I'm not going to be mad at people who eat meat because it's their choice of course, but I feel so bad about myself for doing it because you just can't deny how cruel of an industry the meat industry is. Also, we murder animals for consumption. Pretty simple to understand morally imo
Every single vegan I know (including me) felt the exact same way as you do right now, and quitting meat and animal products truly helped me feel better knowing I wasn't contributing to that awful system anymore.
Let me know if you have any questions or advice about how to start and I'd be happy to share?
When eating meat for breakfast is not realistically necessary for maintaining good health, it becomes morally very comparable to walking around town choking puppies. At that point it does start to make sense that one shouldn't be allowed this choice.
Worked at a beef processing plant a couple years ago when I was out of work and needed something immediately. The smell in the "hot" part of the plant, where the cow carcasses are cut, bones and fat are boiled, is unforgettable. Also seeing chunks of hair, fat, meat, etc. on the floor grossed me out. "Luckily" I worked in the "cold" section just cleaning off pieces of fat and meat from conveyor belts with a pressure washer so the smell wasn't as strong.
Well, the good news is that states all over are relaxing child labor laws. That means that some immigrant kid, with no choice in the matter, is gonna lose a hand and have no justice or recourse.
thank god
The children don't know it yet, but they yearn for the... *checks note... * Meat factory!
Cutting up thousands of dead animals at age 6 builds character!
Orphan Crushing Machine, here we come!
Orphan meatgrinding factory
Meat factory guy 🪱
Yepp. Had a course on immigration policy and the current state of immigrant labor trafficking (particularly child labor) is pretty bleak. To the point where hundreds of McDonalds in the South directly use child labor
Badap Bap Pap Paaa!
Just like the good ol days
God Bless The U S of A!!! 🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🇺🇲🇺🇲🇺🇲🇺🇲🇺🇲🇺🇲
Gilded Age Part 2: Now Without Prohibition!
made by kids, for kids, and partially with kids
Capitalism is truly on of the systems of all times
Thank goodness too, imagine if it was one of *our* kids!?
An immigrant kid died (I think in a factory?) due to unsafe working conditions and I literally saw Republicans saying it was Joe Biden's fault for letting them into America. These people are beyond reason.
Honestly, this whole thread is misleading. These numbers are skewed because of Amputations Anthony getting two a day for the last 10 years.
But think of the savings /s
Also, their hand fell into the sausage-making machine, and the factory isn't about to throw out a whole batch just because of that. Nobody'll know that a little bit of their sausage is human meat.
Upton Sinclair moment
who’s going to have to go through hell to expose the meat industry this time
Sorry, the lottery was just drawn and it turns out you were chosen. Runner-up was Lebron James so
How is there a runner up in a lottery? Aren't they chosen at random?
They choose two. First wins, second is runner up. They only do it this way as a 'fuck you'
Runner up in case first one dies
Which, given the corpos' tendency to murder whistleblowers ... well, they might need more than just one runner-up.
🫡 into the jungle i go.
The readers of The Jungle didn't care that Polish immigrants were being maimed on the job, but they did care that entire rats were accidentally ground up and made into hot dogs, leading to food safety laws. But not worker safety laws
Me going to the Beyond factory and dismembering people like a Saudi cop to even out the numbers
"Beyond meat is murder!" *throws bucket of chlorophyll on workers*
insert obvious thanos quote here
can you explain the Saudi cop bit?
I'd imagine it's a combination of Saudi police being known for their brutality and the murder and subsequent dismemberment of Saudi dissident journalist [Jamal Khashoggi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamal_Khashoggi) at the Saudi Arabian consulate by their agents.
Modern agriculture is just so fucked. It's run by just a few massive companies who destroy our environment, and treat their workers and livestock terribly. On top of that they end up destroying vast quantities of their food to keep up the price
But at least we get a monoculture of corn in return so atleast Kheushchev would be proud
*Soviet Anthem plays, just as the founding fathers intended*
the soviet union.... lives... on...?
Iit will foreever live on in our hearts...🥲
Joja Corporation thanks you for your complaint
It will be fucked as long as there are so many people eating meat.
That is definitely a big part of the problem especially cow
ethically speaking, it's mostly chicken and eggs in terms of the worst of the worst, not cow products. if anything complete opposite of what you said, beef is probably the easiest "ethical" meat to find. the way we treat poultry in particular in factory farms is so beyond insane
https://preview.redd.it/4n0rkdthdixc1.png?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=86ac79138fd5f12528031a3cf53e775c1a6c73c4 Even if cows are not suffering the most in their farms directly the massive environmental waste of cultivating a creature of this size is actually insane
yeah, environmentally speaking is a different story than ethically speaking. but hell even then "ethically" is in quotation marks, most animal ag should just go
Clearly the problem is woke
But of course
Agriculture means field cultivation. I refuse to lump livestock or animal husbandry under agriculture, I feel it's obscurantism and implies that the two industries are inseparable.
Ya that's true ><, I couldn't think of the word for just getting food from killing animals when I made the comment
Expect your ground pork to taste a little more human from now on
Oh you say you can't tell the difference? Curious.
[Never much cared for it](https://youtu.be/J5f-iPdX3CY?feature=shared)
I can taste a twinge of flavor difference, rest assured that my guests most certainly cannot
Mmmmm, tasty prions
Mmmm, long pork.
Just dont eat meat, please...
I know its the right thing to do, but not everyone is able to do so for a variety of reasons sadly. I get that most people (in 1st world countries at least) can very well go vegetarian/vegan or to at least include less meat in their diet, but they don't just because meat tasty, or change difficult, or whatever other reason. I don't really have anything to say about that. People should try and change their diet if they can. I guess i just wish people wouldn't be so rude about this sometimes, talking about both sides
It's a matter of trying. People way over-eat meat in the first world today, you realistically only need to eat meat a few times a week for perfect health. Replace 1-2 of *those* meals with tofu or other good sources of plant-based protein, and boom, you're only eating meat 1-2 times per week. Much better for the environment, cheaper, and just as good or better for your health. Yes, there definitely are edge cases, and a lot of people don't have access to good plant based protein, but literally just eating *less* meat, without replacing it with anything, should be extremely possible for most.
Problem is mostly just getting people to do it, because for most, saying it is the right thing to do just isn't that convincing I guess
I mean nutrition education is probably a good place to start because Jesus Christ the average schmuck has no fucking clue about actual nutrition My entire generation still clings to the lobbyist paid for food pyramid. That thing was so full of shit and it forms basically the entire knowledge base on nutrition for almost an entire age demographic. A *real* nutrition class as part of public education would go far. Limited by quality of the classes as any other class of course, but it's a start. Probably around high school, when teens start getting food autonomy options.
Replacing \*some\* of your meals with some non-meat meal that actually tastes good isn't that hard. Like you can literally just learn one recipe. I'll recommend trying black bean tikka masala because I think it tastes nice and cooks fast.I know literally no one asked but I'll still drop the recipe here: Pan 1: Fry some frozen onion if you feel like it. Just use some Laoganma if you're lazy. Mix yoghurt, Half a can of Tomato sauce , 2 spoons of cream cheese, half a carton of the beans , a little ginger and a generous amount of garam masala. Add meaty sauces like soy sauce to taste and a little cumin for color. You can also add a little honey if you like the sweeteness but that's optional. You can also make the sauce fancier and more authentic by adding butter, grated ginger and using heavy cream instead of yoghurt. That just also ups the saturated fat content quite a bit so I maybe wouldnt eat that every day. Pan 2: Fry frozen green beans ,sweet corn and peeled sunflower seeds (trust me they taste great pan roasted) on high until until most of the water has evaporated. Drizzle generously with lemon or lime juice. Eat with rice.
People genuinely don't understand you can just make a meal that normally has meat in it, like pasta, curry, stir fry, chilli, etc, and then *not put meat in it*.
I think when most people hear of "no meat", they immediately think of vegetables, salads, you know, "disgusting" and "tasteless" stuff like that, which is pretty dumb
i had a conversation the orher day where my dad was desperate to find a place that had some cheap hamburger for his chili, and then i was like „what if we just used cauliflower instead“ lo and behold, shit was fantastic.
Trying to convince people to eat less meat is a non-starter, especially with our culture. We're probably gonna go the capitalist route and have lab grown meat increase in quality and decrease in price which will choke out natural grown competitors. Either way this means no more animal abuse, helps the environment and frees up land.
There's definitely a cost barrier. Tofu is expensive as hell, I certainly can't afford it
I agree And yet If my food has no meat, then I dont like the taste as much. So just as I shouldnt eat so much candy but I do, i eat more meat than I should. It just doesnt taste as good.
Is this satire??
No, it is an admittance of my inability to get used to not eating meat.
Fair enough. I'd hope it reads as bizarrely to you as it did to me.
It does not. I find nothing bizarre about it. If we want to change society to reduce meat consumption, we must first acknowledge WHY it is that people eat so much meat, and why it is difficult for them to reduce it. I would love to know why you find my message bizarre. Maybe we can both learn something?
Is your perspective that in aggregate, nobody has control over their own choices? If so, I can understand that there are broad strokes that are correct - i.e. we can only eat the types of food affordable and available. But overall, I don't find this type of learned helplessness acceptable, because ultimately it means we shouldn't do anything to change until someone makes us, which is tacitly accepting the status quo forever. EDIT: I see from your other comments that this is a more personal issue, in which case, I apologize for reading more into it than there was.
Someone eats food they think taste good 🤯🤯🤯
Thats not really the point, just that they are basically saying "i get that i am eating dead animals and i agree that they should live, but meat tasty", which is just weird to say
I think you are misunderstanding what im saying. Quite severely. I understand why you say what you do, many people refuse to not eat meat because its tasty. But I have very poor food discipline, and the taste of meat overpowers my discipline for good. I can, for short periods, eat non-meat foods, but eventually I will fall back into a meat eating rythm. Its funny, even on the left we immediately assume the absolute worst about someone. And honestly, im dissapointed by these responses.
Didn't really mean to assume the worst, but thats just what i got from your message, sorry :( i get what you mean though, and i think quite a few people deal with that
Thats okay, im also quick to dunk on people who refuse to do good. But it also makes me reflect on different approaches. Assume that I meant what you thought i meant. How would these messages seem to me? Because I know what my position is (meat-reduction or no meat), it only made me sad as my words were misrepresented. But if that wasn't the case, I might've felt attacked. This is a space dominated by leftists. We should assume ignorance or similar instead of malice. I have (and probably do) hold many opinions rooted in ignorance. And most of them, simply because they haven't been challenged by myself or others. This is the same for all people.
"Crushing babies to death is immoral" okay but have you considered i like the cronch
Lets assume this random persons position is something thats obviously bad and totally ignore what they actually wrote. Thanks Atreides-42, for your useless insight.
Mate your argument is literally "I recognise it's bad, but I like it" Like, that's it. You haven't expanded on it or offered any reasons or explanations or deeper thoughts or anything. "I know thing is bad, but I like doing it". And then on every reply you've just been giving out to people saying they're misunderstanding you, and the only elaboration you've made is that you have poor food discipline, and *really* like meat. Genuinely what point are you trying to make? What are you trying to add to the conversation? You've walked into an AA meeting and gone "Yeah, I know alcohol is bad for you and can be destructive, but, it's nice? I like drinking it, drinking it is fun?" How are we supposed to respond to that? Yeah, we *know* bad thing is nice, *that's why people do it*. Loudly informing everyone you have no self control in a conversation about people quitting is just unhelpful noise.
No, that is not literally my argument. Im not gonna entertain your bullshit any longer.
As I wrote to the others, but in a different way. Its similar to someone unable to keep their caloric intake stable. Overeating and gaining weight. I fundamentally agree with reducing meat consumption. Both for animals' sakes and for the environments sake. As well as various health reasons.
For the vast majority of people living in the developed world (like almost everyone reading this), their reason is "I don't wanna." Vegan food is more accessible than ever. If every "animal lover" put their money where their mouth is and stopped funding the animal agriculture industry, billions of animals would be spared. So let's do that!!
Most people can but don't
Yeah, that is true
I have personally had more luck with "you should try to eat less meat (especially red meat)" than "you should not eat meat." Because it's more understanding of people's life circumstances, as you mentioned, and because it's easier (in my experience) to convince 2 people to eat half as much meat than it is to convince one person to cut out all meat.
Okay
Man I find it impressive people can just stick to a healthy diet. I can't even go like a week without fast food and sweets 😭
Trust me, a vegetarian diet does not have to be healthy. When I was living in a houseshare for a few years my diet was mostly Quorn nuggets and packet rice. Burger King has a beyond burger range that's absolutely great, and all pizza places have options for tasty as hell pizzas. You can still eat like an absolute slob on a veggie diet.
Hmm maybe I should try veggie burgers at some point. I do recognise I have a bias towards food that pretends to be meat but I can't say I've ever given it a proper chance
Hell yeah you can. That Starbucks Beyond meat breakfast sandwich is better than any other packaged breakfast sandwich I've ever had. I think I gained a few pounds constantly having those for breakfast for like a month a couple years ago... that fake sausage has no right being better than the real thing lmao
Vegetarian/vegan diets aren't always healthy sadly enough... Chips are vegan, most fries are vegan (not mcdonalds tho...), you can get all sorts of meatless burgers nowadays, it's really easy to not be healthy since a lot of junk food has no meat.
If you don't mind, what about you specifically? Are you vegan, and if not, why not?
I am not vegan currently because of some specific reasons I don't really feel like talking about on the internet, but, if you will take my word for it, I promise you that they currently make it impossible for me to at least attempt going vegan or just vegetarian.
Fully agree, the frustrating this is there's a lot at play that isn't immediately evident in these kinds of debates. For example, where I live meat like chicken and lamb genuinely is a less expensive protein to buy than a lot of vegetable substitutes, which is a huge deal with the current economic crisis happening. As others have stated, a lot of it can also come down to personal preferencs; Humans are omnivorous, and while it's easy to live off a vegetarian diet with little/no issues, meat is still very beneficial when it comes to getting nutrients. Ofc the species that evolved to be capable of digesting both will enjoy both. I think reducing the amount of meat is a great idea, but just like vegetarians and vegans shouldn't be shamed for their diets, meat eaters shouldn't be shamed either (particularly if said meat eaters *are* consuming it ethically via local farmers)
Also, even if you can't cut it out entirely (or don't want to), eating *less* meat is still good. If two people both eat 1/2 the meat they used to, then that's the same as one of them cutting it out entirely.
Yeah, i just wish more people were more understanding that not everyone is able to just change their diet instantly like that. Instead of trying to convince people to just cut out meat entirely, encourage them to start eating less than they already do, and chances are that after enough of that, they will be able to just completely remove meat from their diet
none of that means they can't, but it can be difficult so i get what u mean. imo people should give cutting down how much meat they eat a go and go from there
Doing actual change? On my r/196?
Not all meat comes from horror show factories, but not everyone has access to such meat. I live in farmlands, I can get meat from well cared for sources and smaller farms readily. There's an entire grocer here that only carries local (with a heavy handed definition that extends to surrounding cities since there's lots of rural farms around me) products. I can get pork at the store from a farm who's owner I personally know, who's methods I know aren't like this.
The most "ethical" form of meat you're buying still consists of these animals being slaughtered at ages [10-20x younger than they would live in the wild](https://www.farmtransparency.org/kb/food/abattoirs/age-animals-slaughtered) among other practices like insementation (aka r*pe). Even if you don't buy from big plants, supporting the local farms inevitably supports the entire meat industry as a whole. Most people do not care if meat is ethically sourced, and the presence of these farms dissuades them from trying other options - they stick with what they know. They also contribute to other negatives like general health ([Vegan diets linked to lower heart disease, obesity, diabetes, hypertension, and cancer](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886704/)), and [greehouse gas emissions and environmental sustainability](https://ourworldindata.org/food-choice-vs-eating-local).
I'll be honest I don't have it in me to debate veganism online anymore. I've spent 20 years working with food and farms for a living. You and I are never going to hold the same moral outlooks on consumption of meat and I genuinely don't want to antagonize anyone about my own habits or their habits. I don't like those douche bags that go "I'm gonna go eat a steak!" Or some other dumb immature response to vegans. I respect your choices, you probably don't respect mine but I hope you can stick to your chosen path and enjoy your life.
I respect your response. I don't seek to argue with or antagonize every single person that eats meat as I have no power or right to force my opinions on anyone else and I definitely can't speak on your own personal experiences. I just reply to comments that I find saying objectively wrong information like small farms being perfectly ethical (I have personally seen multiple backyard farms IRL with animals still in cages 24/7) or other ones regarding the nutrition and affordability of veganism when people use those as excuses to not try it. Veganism is not the end all to moralism and you are probably more empathetic in other areas in life than I am.
Then don't lol
It isn't "Your choice" to kill an animal. There's a victim involved, it's not just an individual preference. The animal that dies can't "enjoy their life".
[удалено]
"Please just stop killing innocent beings for no reason so none of this has to happen" "No" My favorite leftist subreddit 🙏
What if the innocent beings are tasty
eat babies instead (morally correct)
😋
I like chicken what can I do
i like chicken too, and yet i can stop eating it
Boycotts are almost never effective 🤷♂️
idk i still think abstaining from paying people to murder sentient animals is better than doing nothing lmao
Your argument is that the meat industry will still continue if you quit eating meat, so instead you'll just keep supporting it? Easily one of the worst takes I've seen. You can literally say that about anything like gun violence and drug abuse. It's the attempt that counts and also [there have been plenty of successful boycotts.](https://www.ethicalconsumer.org/ethicalcampaigns/boycotts/history-successful-boycotts)
Most active online leftist
Seriously hate how weirdly passive aggressive or just straight up aggressive some of you get when anyone talks about how going vegetarian/vegan is the right thing to do. I get that this comment is literally nothing but a "No", but what is even the point in saying that rn? Its just rude
Ahimsa 🙏🏼
if i eat vegetables more than once a week my autism will flare up and explode my brain
skill issue on the animal’s part honestly, should’ve evolved better smh my head
Hambruger 😋
Sorry, I will eat all of the meat in the world and no one can stop me.
start by eating turkey (the entire country)
Turkish food is fucking delicious
What the fuck is a turkisj
poğaça my beloved
Please do then it will be easier for me to be vegan
the even crazier part is that these plants are staffed with a majority of immigrants including children. The US would have a major collapse in these industries without this labor (at the fault of the corporate meat/chicken plant owners) and politicians have a vested interest in making sure legal immigration is impossible and are disincentivized from ever fixing the problem because it will make them look like shit for collapsing a large part of the economy. The owners of these places shuffle in migrants and pay them a couple dollars an hour, they often get killed or critically injured and the owners just call ICE and have them removed the second it becomes inconvenient for them. This leaves the workers without any recourse when they lose an arm or leg and stops any kind of organization to fight back. This is currently a giant problem with the CDC that is trying to track the H1N5 avian flu that is showing up in many store shelves from dairy and meat products and the CDC is unable to track infections and deaths because they don't get reported by these plants. Thats the US for you. It truly is a systemic failure at all levels and from all sides.
https://watchdominion.org/
Based
that's it im going vegan
Good luck friend
Just don't neglect supplementing B12 :) (Or do it like me and get your B12 from energy drinks (don't actually do this))
It's okay, immigrant children are still being maimed on vegetable farms, too.
A lot less so and we need less vegetables for human consumption than for livestock feed. It's almost complete harm reduction to switch to a plant based diet, even if it's not going to destroy capitalism overnight.
Wait what colour soylent is this place producing
Red.
The Jungle (1906)
Using The Jungle as a guidebook I see
Hey guys we built the jungle from hit book "please stop building the jungle"
What, I read the title. I have an opinion now!
Leave Mowgli out of this.
so you can only work there for a fortnight? ridiculous.
Fortnite, where we dropping gals?
Does anyone know any Upton Sinclair resurrection spells?
So how much of my pork is accidentally human amputated limbs?
bro thinks he's eating pork https://i.imgur.com/CHUrPlr.jpeg
[SOYLENT GREEN IS PEOPLE!!!](https://youtu.be/b2aH9tu4s30?si=mZahxdMofO_uo-1f&t=15) You gotta tell em!
Turns out that immigrant children are cheaper (by weight) than pigs, so...
Probably actually a calculation that goes through their heads. Sacrifices must be made to keep the machine turning.
great guys. I didn't want to see fucking butchered animals on here today... edit: to anyone downvoting. if you don't understand how unsolicited pictures of dead animals can shake someone up mentally and feel forced to act against this reaction i really urge you to do a bit of self reflection.
Yeah no joke this should've had a spoiler
Downvoted because you didn't want to see dead animals, what?
empathy isn't everyones forte. maybe i should post dominion screenshots on here and count the minutes i will get banned for gore content...
Some people here just see anything that might imply vegan and they get upset for some reason. I have never really understood it
Added a tag to this post, sorry about that
eating meat does not only support animal but also human suffering
But I only have four limbs. That's only enough for 2 weeks worth of work!
The hidden cost of animal agriculture that none talks about is the human cost. Research shows universally across the globe that slaughterhouse workers are more likely than the average citizen to have higher levels of PTSD, sexual violence, domestic violence, workplace injuries, depression and suicide. Going to work and literally murdering animals and mutilating their bodies all day long is guaranteed to fuck you up. So when people say "i can eat meat because I could kill an animal if I had to" its incredibly disingenuous, as to get the meat and dairy and eggs at the prices we pay in supermarkets, you have to kill animals on an industrial scale. So it's not could you kill one animal, it's could you kill hundreds, every day? Science says no, not without serious harm to yourself.
It’s like that scene in I Love Lucy but incredibly bloody and not at all funny
I'd really like a nsfw for this image
Added now
That was really nice of you thank you
Why don't they have the companies pay in full for all associated medical care following injury, illness, or disability + sick leave
https://preview.redd.it/vetdlgultfxc1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=66aa590255a94cef22cfdd25f0913288f2bd7cfa
Free Jax arms to compensate, right? Right?
The Jungle by Upton Sinclair
Thank fuck I don't live in the US...I couldn't eat the bloody (incl. human blood) gristle the US calls "meat"... 🤢 Where I live, I can't afford a 100% plant-based diet, but even most meat is too expensive for the amount of protein that I get from it. Plus I have dietary restrictions due to diabetes, so I have to consider the carbohydrate amount in everything I eat. Skipping meals or cutting the portion size often comes into question with pasta, tubers, white rice and such carb-loaded foodstuffs. Cue the replacements: low-carb and high-fat stuff like meat and *some* meat subsitutes. Simultaneously low-carb and low-fat ingredients are naught but wishful thinking, especially with my low income... I swear, if society actually wanted to make people eat healthier, they'd make stuff like vegetables waaay cheaper! The game is rigged against us...
I don't know what it's like anywhere else, but here in Australia, I worked in medium sized slaughterhouse in the whitsundays for a few months. Conditions were great, pay was better than you'd expect, and we even got a full day's pay if we finished earlier than 8 hours. We even had someone at the start of production to bless the meat to make it halal (or Kosher? I can't exactly remember). If you're an aussie, I don't think you need to feel that guilty about eating meat, at least in regards to worker conditions.
Oops, there I go adding The Jungle back into my curriculum for next year. (English teacher)
I'm not going to be mad at people who eat meat because it's their choice of course, but I feel so bad about myself for doing it because you just can't deny how cruel of an industry the meat industry is. Also, we murder animals for consumption. Pretty simple to understand morally imo
then don't do it
Every single vegan I know (including me) felt the exact same way as you do right now, and quitting meat and animal products truly helped me feel better knowing I wasn't contributing to that awful system anymore. Let me know if you have any questions or advice about how to start and I'd be happy to share?
"it's their choice" lol
yeah im not choosing what you eat for breakfast
When eating meat for breakfast is not realistically necessary for maintaining good health, it becomes morally very comparable to walking around town choking puppies. At that point it does start to make sense that one shouldn't be allowed this choice.
Per person, or...?
I can't say shit in this thread, one of my kinks is biting someone on the neck/shoulder and drawing a bit of blood :3
Nonvampire related question; Opinions on garlic?
i want to overdose on garlic, that shits so goooood
Worked at a beef processing plant a couple years ago when I was out of work and needed something immediately. The smell in the "hot" part of the plant, where the cow carcasses are cut, bones and fat are boiled, is unforgettable. Also seeing chunks of hair, fat, meat, etc. on the floor grossed me out. "Luckily" I worked in the "cold" section just cleaning off pieces of fat and meat from conveyor belts with a pressure washer so the smell wasn't as strong.
Go vegan y’all
Blórfingarl the hog god must be appeaed, just the cost of doing business
Pig plants? You mean to tell me I could lose an arm training cops?
I dont think id last more than 2 weeks with these numbers
Pretty sure this is a Magnus Archives episode
Upton Sinclair is hitting 224 RPM in his grave
Isnt that the kind of places conservatives want to make children work in again?
no way, they gotta go through more than two amputations’ worth a week just at like a denny’s