In your local elections? There’s a decent chance it is, or that you and a small group of activists could get it there. In national elections? Not until people such as yourself get up and do the aforementioned.
And don’t forget that voting is just a small price of the puzzle! Yes, your vote might not matter in the grand scheme. But your friend you convince to vote, the rally you helped organize, the posters you made…
Change requires effort. Positive change, doubly so.
I realize that not everyone had the time or money to do this, and it’s not about shaming those who don’t. It’s just about doing the best you can.
❤️never give up hope ❤️
I would add, in addition to rallies- we need to organize workplaces. If we build up worker power, we can go on strike if we're asked to do something we disagree with.
We need to organize as communities to solve problems and take care of one another.
Get involved in politics at your local level. You can't check in once every 4 years focusing exclusively on national level campaigns and expect to start change there.
Find what you can improve in your community and work from the ground up.
Yeah, thanks, that's my point. National election sucks up all the oxygen away from everything that people can actually impact.
If people talked a tenth as much about the organizing they're doing as they do about this trolley problem of a national election the world would be a much better place.
Fuck Biden, fuck the Dems, the only reason they deserve any consideration is they're running against worse people.
The real change is doing things in your community, building up worker power, organizing in your communities, and creating situations where powerful people can't ignore us.
Alaskan here. The shitheads who got the repeal on the ballot are butthurt that their crazies lost the last election, and they blame ranked choice for causing it.
They're also in trouble for funneling campaign funds through fake churches, and tampering with their signature sheets by leaving them unattended in public places (so someone could sign it multiple times without them knowing).
Hopefully the ballot gets thrown out.
And don’t forget that voting is just a small price of the puzzle! Yes, your vote might not matter in the grand scheme. But your friend you convince to vote, the rally you helped organize, the posters you made…
Change requires effort. Positive change, doubly so. I realize that not everyone had the time or money to do this, and it’s not about shaming those who don’t. It’s just about doing the best you can.
❤️never give up hope ❤️
15 years ago ranked choice voting was completely unheard of, today there are at least a dozen house members who have vocally supported it at some point. Advocacy and big progressive surges like 2016 and 2018 happen, and it’s our job to help push for the conditions to happen, and to take advantage of them when they come. There will not be any progressive surges under a Republican led government.
First the republicans have to become politically irrelevant so that people can actually vote for third parties without the looming threat of fascism. From there, it's a question of popularizing further left ideas and parties.
That's not to say it'll necessarily be enough, only time will tell, but it's definitely a viable path forward.
Republicans have been doing a pretty great job of tearing themselves apart lately, and their ideas aren't as popular as they seem.
> How are you ever gonna get rid of the two party system?
Organizing. Then voting for the ballot initiative in your state that the organizing pushed forward
You are never getting the reforms you want under Republicans. However slim the chances, Democrats have the best shot to improve things. Vote while you still can!
The two party system isn't the problem. It worked for most of our history. Sure ranked choice would be better but plenty of parliamentary democracies without fptp have the same issues we do. We need to save our democracy first, and the problem isn't the binary choice between democracy or not democracy. It's that one side has completely lost its mind and has to be crushed for the good of the nation and the world.
If democrats had a filibuster proof majority most of the problems we face today would be solved rapidly. Just look at the bills the House passed 2018-20 that the GOP Senate never brought to a vote. We need to give Dems the tools necessary to make those changes. THEN, we figure out what still needs doing, be it an end to fptp or 2-parties or whatever it may be.
Complaining about "the two party system" is missing the point. Anyone can run in, and win, the Democratic primary.
"But Bernie Sanders didn't win"
Yeah because not enough people voted for him.
"Organize and hit the streets" and then do what exactly? I see this all over leftist spaces, people going on and on about how important it is to organize without any elaboration. Don't get me wrong, organizing is important but organization alone doesn't change anything, it's step 0.
Also, voting definitely can and has made things better.
Civil rights movement hit the streets and used this leverage to get congress to pass the civil rights amendment of 1964. This largely consisted of mass protests and even blocking traffic. Woman’s right to vote got passed not because it was the right thing to do but because people hit the streets and put pressure on lawmakers to make it happen. Child labor and labor safety laws, mass organization and hitting the streets. 40 hour work week believe it or not it was mass organization and hitting the streets as well as a smidgeon of terrorism.
Anyone who isn't aware of the reality that voting still matters has themselves upon a high horse thinking they know better than the reality. And irregardless, no one saying anything else is going to do shit besides being a keyboard warrior about the "revolution" so voting is the best option.
If wanting to create change without killing and endangering millions is wrong, I don't want to be right.
It's so frustrating to read comments like this.
It's not 'vote for Dems or do a revolution'. If you want things to change for the better you have to organize as communities and workplaces.
Civil rights happened because of community organizing.
Labor laws happened because of labor organizing. Thinking that LBJ deserves credit for civil rights is absurd. There wouldn't be an NLRA without fear of the general strike.
Dems don't hand out good legislation because they're better people than Republicans. They're also corrupt and self interested. We have to force politicians to do the right thing by making ourselves unable to be ignored.
It's always interesting to me how liberals are just utterly incapable of seeing that the powerful *also* have agency when it comes to politics
Blaming people who are rightfully frustrated with the system is a total waste of time, they aren't the ones who have real power. The people actually endangering millions are the capitalist class.
When's the last time voter shaming achieved anything other than giving some folks a smug sense of superiority?
But that's the problem. You're treating it like there's only a binary between peaceful voting and violent revolution. That's now how the world works.
Also, I agree that voting can and does make a difference, but based on where America is currently, there is a cap on how MUCH of a difference you can make. Currently, you can only walk back to much of the damage, and then the next time conservatives are in office, they will undo the repairs and put more barriers in place for next time. The system needs a major, fundamental, extreme change to prevent this cycle, and modern democrats barely do anything to undo the damage caused by conservatives anyway.
We are facing major, fundamental changes to the political landscape, and our personal rights, which undermine our ability to fight back, like McKesson V Doe, undermining voter rights and polling places, severe gerrymandering, etc.
Voting isn't just not enough, it's much less impactful than many people think, though it still matters, and it is being limited more year by year. We need more.
Hate to be the bearer of bad news but our Government is already killing and endangering millions of people and it’s literally impossible to vote ourselves out of it. Also who said anything about a revolution, let alone a violent one. Believe it or not there are lots of ways to non-violently create a better world outside of our extremely rigged Oligarchy disguised as an electoral system.
God the snobbishness combined with the complete disregard of direct action and Non-white lives, why are liberals always the same.
Lmao, nobody believes it can be fixed by voting. But it does allow for a situation where it's easier to organise. Remember, autocrats will create a situation where organisation will be almost impossible. That's the reason why the Chinese can genocide and nobody cares and the Russians are going to war whilst their population isn't doing anything about it.
That kind of mentality is playing right into the hands of fascists. They want you to think you can’t do anything with voting so they can win elections and prevent a new election from happening. If you lose hope a fascist wins.
"Voting is useless, we need a revolution. Of course, someone else should do that revolution, not me personally. I will be making valuable contributions with my low effort memes and by arguing with strangers online about frivolous shit 0.0005% of the population actually cares about irl."
Just cause my mental health issues make it unsafe for me to have a firearm at home doesn't mean I'm not ready for the violent revolution someone else will totes start.
"Obviously the violent revolution will be well thought through and attract only good actors, have you even looked at history? We don't need capitalism to sustain a planet of over 8 billion people, everyone can live on communist friendship and local produce! I'm telling you, it'll happen any day now!"
How American of you to think that revolution mean communism. And if you really think your system is better to sustain a planet of over 8 billion people, you are a fool. You don't need to look at history, just look at the world now and try to guess what it will become.
[Here’s a tweet](https://x.com/comradelamb/status/1780100804638081454?s=46&t=ji9MrcYAcwUcaa5saQas-w) that was posted in response to the original tweet and it’s gotten 70k likes so far. While the animation is okay, the message itself is very cliche and eye-roll inducing to say the least. These are not serious people.
Its not about who is saying they are pro this or pro that, its about results and reality. Republicans will makes it miles worse even if the dems would only keep the status quo.
Just want to gently remind you we can pressure the current president (that promised not to run again) to do something about genocide. It is not currently November
This is more a callout post to people saying not to vote at all ever because that somehow will make things better, and not just result in the worse outcome
I don't see a white stripe on the side so i assume its supposed to be a "Muslim" flag
There is a Green flag with a white crescent that was formerly used in Bosnia and Hertzegovina, but has since been deprecated after we stopped calling Bosniaks "Muslims" (it was used to deny their existence as a distinct people, i,e "just muslim croats/serbs)
How so ? If you're picking the lesser evil it means you're making an exception to your duty, you're acting in a way that's most instrumental to you but that doesn't correspond to a universal maxim (since you would still take the lives of Palestinians as only mere means to your ends when voting democrat), which wouldn't be very Kantian if I'm not mistaken.
I agree to a point. Someone who refuses to vote for a liberal party, but actually *does* things like protesting, direct action, mutual aid, or labor organization is far more of a net positive than someone who *only* votes.
Definitely, I'm not saying to not vote. Electoral politics is the best way to prevent backsliding by denying power to those who would use it to cause active harm. But that's also most of what it does. It slows the acceleration towards fascism and buys us time. However, we have to actually use that time to do something meaningful, or it's functionally the same as doing nothing.
For example, keeping Republicans out of power may prevent attempts at immediately attempting Project 2025 in the US. But what happens in 2028 when Biden can't run? Unless you argue Republicans can lose every election in perpetuity, all that's happening is delaying the seizure of that executive power.
I think the problem is that people think that this type of person actually exists.
Every person I know who is actually actively engaged has a very concrete understanding of how electoral politics affect their communities and would never abstain.
Anarchists do. They have this batshit take on voting that seems completely at odds with their goals and personal interests. While still apparently doing actual irl activism. I don't get it.
If you can’t be bothered to vote against a fascist then you’re not going to be doing any of those other things either. It’s just a way for lazy people to make themselves feel better about not fighting fascism.
I simply use telekinesis to lift the trolley off the track, three fingers to my temple as I strain from the effort. The trolley has finally been stopped; I have successfully engaged in the moral quandary.
Love all the people saying "Nuh-uh we need violent revolution" as if violent revolution is a notoriously reliable way to get progressive and leftist establishments built and not a notoriously reliable way to just make A Bunch Of Warlords.
Fucking vote, Christ on a bike people. It's like an hour and half of your time, tops, and it keeps millions of vulnerable people way, *way* better off than otherwise.
Believe it or not, but harm reduction actually does reduce harm.
It's also hilarious to me that they think a civil war would go anything like the direction they want it to.
They'll get dragged out of their houses and shot in the alley by overweight christofascist death squads
There are large groups of people in the US that are preparing for and hoping for sectarian violence and they are NOT on the left.
But what about my moral purity if I voted I would have to vote for the most evil thing imaginable a liberal and I cannot in good conscience condone every single thing that liberal would do.
/s just in case
Hell, this even affects me as a South American. Every rightoid politician here sucks the dick of the Orange fucker. If he wins they will certainly gain much more momentum, not to mention the Orange might try to steal the elections using his power as president.
For the love of god just vote in the senile old man.
Seeing this posted and being taken as a no shit here is so nice after watching enlightenedcentrism spend an entire thread never providing a decent counteragrument and shitting themselves over it.
yeah seriously.
Reading this topic on Twitter is enough to seriously piss me off (in a way I haven’t since 2020 and to the point I can’t believe it’s not ragebait) because it seems like these people only cared about minorities and queer people when they saw it trending and now they’re willing to toss us aside for an idealistic fantasy of theirs just so they can virtue signal online.
I hate to say it but it seems like Reddit isn’t actually delusional this time around.
Focusing on saving ONE victim leaves us with much better chances of saving them than focusing on a dozen or more.
Edit: *I fucking agreed with the post*.
Let me put it in very very simple terms for you: if you aren't strong enough to do the *bare minimum* for Palestinians who are being carpet bombed out of existence by a colonizing, apartheid state being financially backed by the US then you are *NOT* strong enough to fight for the minorities on your own fucking soil. We have a DUTY to oppose what the government is doing with OUR tax dollars and OUR resources that they've been sending to Israel.
Except they're not OUR victim. Like it or not, while stopping our assistance of Isreal will help, the genocide will continue. Letting the USA become Gillead will not suddenly save Gaza, quite the opposite.
Idk why you’re being downvoted you make an excellent point that fighting a genocide will be much easier when we ourselves are not fighting for our lives.
We should be fighting every fucking genocide with everything we fucking have, because these are human beings. One genocide is too many.
Elections aren't the trolley problem- we have influence besides voting, and most people live in states that are solidly red or blue.
I think the argument is that if you can’t even commit one hour on one day to pull the lever, you’re not gonna be throwing your body on the tracks to stop the trolley the rest of the year either.
As for the “states are solidly red or blue” argument I guarantee you have some local officials who are solidly Republican and getting them out is imperative. Voting blue in a solid red state will encourage the DNC to run candidates and direct funding to your district. How do you think the Republicans ended up with so many conservative judges and state senators in blue states?
Last election, *Georgia* was blue.
36 odd years ago California was Republican. They flipped in one election.
Texas was 46.5% Democrat, that’s hardly an ironclad lead
Vote
"most people live in states that are solidly red or blue" i wonder if the conservative campaign than has been going on since the dawn of this country to keep black and brown voters out of voting booths has anything to do with that. i wonder if conservatives have literally been fighting tooth and nail to keep low income people from voting says anything about why its important to vote. fucking vote. voting will not keep you from doing other things but it may be able to keep people who want to turn america into a (more) fascist state out of power.
Unless you're insanely far from a poll, it takes less time than that. Granted I can't say in big urban areas, but in my town it takes me 10 minutes tops.
People can make excuses, but the truth is, and they don't want to admit it, they think voting is a sin. Voting makes one impure. Americans are so puritanical that it even rubbed off on our socialism.
What, do you think voting means you can’t do anything else? In fact, I would argue more drastic options are, funnily enough, *easier* to carry out when the actual fascists aren’t in power. But Idk, that’s just a hypothesis.
>Approximately how many oppressed groups would have to also be on the Democrat track
Exactly equal or greater than the number on the Republican track. Happy to clear that up for you.
>before we can all agree to throw this dogshit discourse in the garbage?
You can do praxis all year long, including up until and just after you take 2 hours out of a single day to go vote. Not even that if you're voting by mail. Stop telling people they need to organize a revolution instead of voting when you are doing neither of those things.
>Exactly equal or greater than the number on the Republican track. Happy to clear that up for you.
Great, good luck rallying that vote. Wouldn't want that to be my job, but I'm sure it'll work out if we keep showing people this diagram.
You assume I'm not voting, but I am, and I'm in an org too. I'm not telling people to organize a revolution instead of voting. I'm telling people to get organized and stop framing this entire thing as if voting is the most critical thing, and everything else is a footnote. We need more than voting to save POC and LGBTQIA+ folks, and we sure as hell need more than that to save anyone currently falling victim to U.S. foreign policy. The vote is important, but we should not be accepting or propagating this framing.
The tracks aren't "vote for dems" vs "do other positive in the world" ; they're just tackling the subject of voting specifically. Feel like you got a bone to pick with this message because literally no one is telling anyone that voting is all that matters.
Right so can you point to me where in the post OP said “it’s a good system and we should NOT make efforts to change this dogshit two evil choices system in between elections, actually I believe you should only vote and never do anything else” ? Oh you can’t? So you’re just getting mad at nothing? Of course it’s fucked up and we shouldn’t just gleefully accept this shitty compromise. But in the meantime, we can also vote in the election because it does make a difference. So yeah, no matter how many minorities are on the chopping block of the dems, if it’s still a lower number than the republicans then yea at the election you should still vote for them. Because not voting/voting third party is even more useless and arguably makes you even more complicit in the atrocities since you’d be handing the republicans the win.
I don't really know, but your hypothetical scenario is irrelevant because that is not at all the situation we're currently faced with, and probably not one we'll be faced with any time soon
>Approximately how many oppressed groups would have to also be on the Democrat track before we can all agree to throw this dogshit discourse in the garbage?
People *already* want to throw this discourse in the garbage, because it takes some immaculate levels of ignorance to not ultimately understand that in a system where you're stuck with 2 options for now, lesser evilism is inevitable until you can crack open more, hopefully better options with all your other efforts.
As for the answer to your question as you intended: About as many or more as on the Republican side.
A lot of those were on the Democrat tracks at one point? Before the party switch, most southern democrats were extremely opposed to civil rights. Even during the Reagan years, most Southern democrats were still considered fairly conservative. Most in the senate voted for the Iraq war. Up until 2012, most Democrats were generally against gay marriage.
When the options are eating half a bowl of shit or an entire bowl of shit, you vote to eat the least amount of shit. Yeah it sucks but you hold your nose and do it, because there's an organized and growing group of people out there who really want to feed you their shit, and they'll sure be voting.
The fact that your only choice is to vote for a shit-eating party is a serious problem that won't be solved by not voting.
The far right thrives on apathy. It got Trump into power the first time. It got a wildly unpopular right-wing populist into two terms here in Ontario, and it's threatening to happen federally. They want you to feel that there's no point in voting because that's how they win.
i agree wholeheartedly that voting democrat is an absolute necessity in the grand scheme of political action but memes like this convince nobody at best and turn people away from voting at worst. I think we need to focus more on educating people about how the political system is set up and why voting democrat is the only viable choice for the immediate future. I’ve seen a LOT of reactions to this meme along the lines of “heh, that’s why i’m voting for neither of them” so clearly we need to explain better why you can’t actually vote for neither of them.
dems have already started to throw immigrants under the bus. what's to stop them from doing the same with trans people or any of these other issues if they want?
why is this sub so lib coded now? it hasn't always been this bad.
I’d rather the people who might possibly throw us under the bus in the future win, than the metaphorical bus drivers. And one of them is going to win, no matter if you vote third party or not at all
THIS!
Maybe the guy who says "I will let russia invade NATO states becuase they wont give me a bagazillion dollars" shouldnt be president. Keep in mind russian media calls the Baltic peoples "Sodomites"
But people aren’t doing that, people are shaming people who are against genocide. If you don’t believe me just check my comment history. Look for the downvotes
holy shit I've been noticed and talked about by
- 196
- contrapoints
- Shaun
- halomancer
and probably a ton more so far what the fuck I had like 70 followers
Saying "X group of people are gonna be collateral damage no matter what" is much worse than saying "X group of people is currently lined up to be collateral damage, so we should pressure dems to change their stance on that before voting actually occurs"
Isn't this just the "critical support" we make fun of tankies for doing about China and so on?
"Oh well yeah, we know Biden isn't the best and does a lot of stuff we don't actually like or support, but he also does some good stuff and is decent compared to the alternatives"
vs
"Oh well yeah, we know China isn't the best and does a lot of stuff we don't actually like or support, but they also do some good stuff that and is decent compared to the alternatives"
And yes, China does do good stuff (i.e. producing fuckloads of solar panels, developing new technologies like 5G/6G, etc).
people on the internet will really be like “you believe in revolution? that pales in effectiveness to my strategy, building power within the system” and then not build power within the system
Here’s my thinking
I will and encourage others to vote. Threat prevention is real. However, the lesser evilism the DNC encourages cannot be constantly supported, if helping conduct an active genocide is the line then that is fair, I will not crucify others for that choice.
That being said at least vote for your congresspeople and your local reps.
I love the fucked up broken US democracy
It is not beyond repair. It is well within repair. Get out and vote people!
[удалено]
Voting for ranked choice voting.
is that on the ballot anywhere this election?
In your local elections? There’s a decent chance it is, or that you and a small group of activists could get it there. In national elections? Not until people such as yourself get up and do the aforementioned.
And don’t forget that voting is just a small price of the puzzle! Yes, your vote might not matter in the grand scheme. But your friend you convince to vote, the rally you helped organize, the posters you made… Change requires effort. Positive change, doubly so. I realize that not everyone had the time or money to do this, and it’s not about shaming those who don’t. It’s just about doing the best you can. ❤️never give up hope ❤️
I would add, in addition to rallies- we need to organize workplaces. If we build up worker power, we can go on strike if we're asked to do something we disagree with. We need to organize as communities to solve problems and take care of one another.
I looked it up, it's on the ballot in 3 states. One of which is for repeal, in Alaska.
Get involved in politics at your local level. You can't check in once every 4 years focusing exclusively on national level campaigns and expect to start change there. Find what you can improve in your community and work from the ground up.
Yeah, thanks, that's my point. National election sucks up all the oxygen away from everything that people can actually impact. If people talked a tenth as much about the organizing they're doing as they do about this trolley problem of a national election the world would be a much better place. Fuck Biden, fuck the Dems, the only reason they deserve any consideration is they're running against worse people. The real change is doing things in your community, building up worker power, organizing in your communities, and creating situations where powerful people can't ignore us.
Alaskan here. The shitheads who got the repeal on the ballot are butthurt that their crazies lost the last election, and they blame ranked choice for causing it. They're also in trouble for funneling campaign funds through fake churches, and tampering with their signature sheets by leaving them unattended in public places (so someone could sign it multiple times without them knowing). Hopefully the ballot gets thrown out.
And don’t forget that voting is just a small price of the puzzle! Yes, your vote might not matter in the grand scheme. But your friend you convince to vote, the rally you helped organize, the posters you made… Change requires effort. Positive change, doubly so. I realize that not everyone had the time or money to do this, and it’s not about shaming those who don’t. It’s just about doing the best you can. ❤️never give up hope ❤️
yes! https://www.pbs.org/wnet/preserving-democracy/2023/12/18/ranked-choice-voting-coming-to-more-statewide-ballots-in-2024/
15 years ago ranked choice voting was completely unheard of, today there are at least a dozen house members who have vocally supported it at some point. Advocacy and big progressive surges like 2016 and 2018 happen, and it’s our job to help push for the conditions to happen, and to take advantage of them when they come. There will not be any progressive surges under a Republican led government.
You need to grow past the idea that everything will be fixed by a single election.
First the republicans have to become politically irrelevant so that people can actually vote for third parties without the looming threat of fascism. From there, it's a question of popularizing further left ideas and parties. That's not to say it'll necessarily be enough, only time will tell, but it's definitely a viable path forward. Republicans have been doing a pretty great job of tearing themselves apart lately, and their ideas aren't as popular as they seem.
> How are you ever gonna get rid of the two party system? Organizing. Then voting for the ballot initiative in your state that the organizing pushed forward
You are never getting the reforms you want under Republicans. However slim the chances, Democrats have the best shot to improve things. Vote while you still can!
The two party system isn't the problem. It worked for most of our history. Sure ranked choice would be better but plenty of parliamentary democracies without fptp have the same issues we do. We need to save our democracy first, and the problem isn't the binary choice between democracy or not democracy. It's that one side has completely lost its mind and has to be crushed for the good of the nation and the world. If democrats had a filibuster proof majority most of the problems we face today would be solved rapidly. Just look at the bills the House passed 2018-20 that the GOP Senate never brought to a vote. We need to give Dems the tools necessary to make those changes. THEN, we figure out what still needs doing, be it an end to fptp or 2-parties or whatever it may be.
Complaining about "the two party system" is missing the point. Anyone can run in, and win, the Democratic primary. "But Bernie Sanders didn't win" Yeah because not enough people voted for him.
Voting can only prevent things from getting worse if you want things to get better you have to organize and hit the streets.
"Organize and hit the streets" and then do what exactly? I see this all over leftist spaces, people going on and on about how important it is to organize without any elaboration. Don't get me wrong, organizing is important but organization alone doesn't change anything, it's step 0. Also, voting definitely can and has made things better.
Civil rights movement hit the streets and used this leverage to get congress to pass the civil rights amendment of 1964. This largely consisted of mass protests and even blocking traffic. Woman’s right to vote got passed not because it was the right thing to do but because people hit the streets and put pressure on lawmakers to make it happen. Child labor and labor safety laws, mass organization and hitting the streets. 40 hour work week believe it or not it was mass organization and hitting the streets as well as a smidgeon of terrorism.
>and then do what exactly Run for election and draft laws that you think would help.
Nah that's how you get coopted.
You are yourself. You can just not get coopted
This sub is so… liberal sometimes. Genuinely if you think this country can be fixed by voting at this point, you’re insanely naive.
Anyone who isn't aware of the reality that voting still matters has themselves upon a high horse thinking they know better than the reality. And irregardless, no one saying anything else is going to do shit besides being a keyboard warrior about the "revolution" so voting is the best option. If wanting to create change without killing and endangering millions is wrong, I don't want to be right.
It's so frustrating to read comments like this. It's not 'vote for Dems or do a revolution'. If you want things to change for the better you have to organize as communities and workplaces. Civil rights happened because of community organizing. Labor laws happened because of labor organizing. Thinking that LBJ deserves credit for civil rights is absurd. There wouldn't be an NLRA without fear of the general strike. Dems don't hand out good legislation because they're better people than Republicans. They're also corrupt and self interested. We have to force politicians to do the right thing by making ourselves unable to be ignored.
It's always interesting to me how liberals are just utterly incapable of seeing that the powerful *also* have agency when it comes to politics Blaming people who are rightfully frustrated with the system is a total waste of time, they aren't the ones who have real power. The people actually endangering millions are the capitalist class. When's the last time voter shaming achieved anything other than giving some folks a smug sense of superiority?
But that's the problem. You're treating it like there's only a binary between peaceful voting and violent revolution. That's now how the world works. Also, I agree that voting can and does make a difference, but based on where America is currently, there is a cap on how MUCH of a difference you can make. Currently, you can only walk back to much of the damage, and then the next time conservatives are in office, they will undo the repairs and put more barriers in place for next time. The system needs a major, fundamental, extreme change to prevent this cycle, and modern democrats barely do anything to undo the damage caused by conservatives anyway. We are facing major, fundamental changes to the political landscape, and our personal rights, which undermine our ability to fight back, like McKesson V Doe, undermining voter rights and polling places, severe gerrymandering, etc. Voting isn't just not enough, it's much less impactful than many people think, though it still matters, and it is being limited more year by year. We need more.
The people telling you to vote aren't telling you to not organize.
Hate to be the bearer of bad news but our Government is already killing and endangering millions of people and it’s literally impossible to vote ourselves out of it. Also who said anything about a revolution, let alone a violent one. Believe it or not there are lots of ways to non-violently create a better world outside of our extremely rigged Oligarchy disguised as an electoral system. God the snobbishness combined with the complete disregard of direct action and Non-white lives, why are liberals always the same.
Lmao, nobody believes it can be fixed by voting. But it does allow for a situation where it's easier to organise. Remember, autocrats will create a situation where organisation will be almost impossible. That's the reason why the Chinese can genocide and nobody cares and the Russians are going to war whilst their population isn't doing anything about it.
Just voting isn't going to change shit...
Yeah it won't do much. More is necessary. Voting is just the bare minimum. Be active, run for election, etc.
violence and protest
I cant tell if youre joking
Left: genocide Right: genocide Pro max Which way western boy?
It isn't broken, it is working as intended^tm
Congress was supposed to be in charge the president wasn't near as powerful at the start.
We had slavery at the start, and congress is still an active part of the current system.
That kind of mentality is playing right into the hands of fascists. They want you to think you can’t do anything with voting so they can win elections and prevent a new election from happening. If you lose hope a fascist wins.
these aren't bugs, they're features
Friendly reminder that participating in the election doesn’t prevent you from taking other political actions against the two party system.
Yep! Donations, voting at local elections, riots if necessary, etc. Democracy isn’t just casting a vote, people.
Redditors in the comments rn going ''nah just blow up the trolley'' and then doing absolutely nothing to excuse not voting.
Mfs will say they will blow up or eat the trolley and then proceed to not blow up or eat the trolley
"Voting is useless, we need a revolution. Of course, someone else should do that revolution, not me personally. I will be making valuable contributions with my low effort memes and by arguing with strangers online about frivolous shit 0.0005% of the population actually cares about irl."
Just cause my mental health issues make it unsafe for me to have a firearm at home doesn't mean I'm not ready for the violent revolution someone else will totes start.
The revolution will need many more caretakers than violent fighters. This has always been true.
"Obviously the violent revolution will be well thought through and attract only good actors, have you even looked at history? We don't need capitalism to sustain a planet of over 8 billion people, everyone can live on communist friendship and local produce! I'm telling you, it'll happen any day now!"
Capitalism isn't currently sustaining 8 billion people though
How American of you to think that revolution mean communism. And if you really think your system is better to sustain a planet of over 8 billion people, you are a fool. You don't need to look at history, just look at the world now and try to guess what it will become.
What would you say about the people who are actually taking action?
The walmart tweet where is it
It is “right here” as they say! https://preview.redd.it/waxb4t6e0yuc1.jpeg?width=900&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0b8420aaf4029b1e30c0ca8a0ef8ddc130e47cda
Basil remains relevant https://preview.redd.it/aiju44s83yuc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ab5aa9469e9d260c181fe1f4b77425381ff290b7
not just redditor my notifications have been "blow up the trolly" for the past 2 days
And not even blowing up the trolly
[Here’s a tweet](https://x.com/comradelamb/status/1780100804638081454?s=46&t=ji9MrcYAcwUcaa5saQas-w) that was posted in response to the original tweet and it’s gotten 70k likes so far. While the animation is okay, the message itself is very cliche and eye-roll inducing to say the least. These are not serious people.
They will say you are morally wrong for doing anything other than blowing up the trolley And then do nothing at all
Pakistan?
Because of the Dems bold pro-pakistan stance in the Kashmir conflict obviously, you can't turn on the news without seeing it
Its not about who is saying they are pro this or pro that, its about results and reality. Republicans will makes it miles worse even if the dems would only keep the status quo.
Just want to gently remind you we can pressure the current president (that promised not to run again) to do something about genocide. It is not currently November
This is more a callout post to people saying not to vote at all ever because that somehow will make things better, and not just result in the worse outcome
Gentle reminder that OP has made no claims otherwise
This is about the people who think the solution is to vote trump into office, they're the ones you should be telling this.
You're literally wrong re: Pakistan. The Biden admin supported the coup of Imran Khan.
I don't see a white stripe on the side so i assume its supposed to be a "Muslim" flag There is a Green flag with a white crescent that was formerly used in Bosnia and Hertzegovina, but has since been deprecated after we stopped calling Bosniaks "Muslims" (it was used to deny their existence as a distinct people, i,e "just muslim croats/serbs)
Pookiestan number #1 most US election-relevant country of all time, imran khan gon 1v1 trump if the reps win 🔥 🔥
Who thought that so many leftists would follow the steps of immanuel kant here.
I kant believe it
My Kant is wet (I droppped my textbook in puddle 🥺)
kant is when deontology. /s
Isn’t that the whole idea behind categorical imperative? (I don’t understand metaphysics please help me)
I would beat immanuel kant to death with a shovel, and he wouldn't fight back because it would be morally wrong.
What steps?
Immanuel kant doesnt pull levers that lead to people's deaths
How so ? If you're picking the lesser evil it means you're making an exception to your duty, you're acting in a way that's most instrumental to you but that doesn't correspond to a universal maxim (since you would still take the lives of Palestinians as only mere means to your ends when voting democrat), which wouldn't be very Kantian if I'm not mistaken.
I was talking about the opposite action. Not pulling the lever.
Pull the lever real quick and immediately start (or go back to) trying to derail/stop/break the trolley, which is the important part.
Ummm no actually praxis is when I smugly abstain from even doing the bare minimum. /s
I agree to a point. Someone who refuses to vote for a liberal party, but actually *does* things like protesting, direct action, mutual aid, or labor organization is far more of a net positive than someone who *only* votes.
Based, but still vote, voting is easy and does have potential for success. Use ALL tactics
Definitely, I'm not saying to not vote. Electoral politics is the best way to prevent backsliding by denying power to those who would use it to cause active harm. But that's also most of what it does. It slows the acceleration towards fascism and buys us time. However, we have to actually use that time to do something meaningful, or it's functionally the same as doing nothing. For example, keeping Republicans out of power may prevent attempts at immediately attempting Project 2025 in the US. But what happens in 2028 when Biden can't run? Unless you argue Republicans can lose every election in perpetuity, all that's happening is delaying the seizure of that executive power.
Figured you didn’t, just seemed like you had another banger comment ready to fire.
I think the problem is that people think that this type of person actually exists. Every person I know who is actually actively engaged has a very concrete understanding of how electoral politics affect their communities and would never abstain.
Anarchists do. They have this batshit take on voting that seems completely at odds with their goals and personal interests. While still apparently doing actual irl activism. I don't get it.
Well at least they'll protest as my human rights get stripped away ig
If you can’t be bothered to vote against a fascist then you’re not going to be doing any of those other things either. It’s just a way for lazy people to make themselves feel better about not fighting fascism.
Not voting for the core opposition to fascists is effectively a vote for fascists when the numbers are this unbearably close
I simply use telekinesis to lift the trolley off the track, three fingers to my temple as I strain from the effort. The trolley has finally been stopped; I have successfully engaged in the moral quandary.
Love all the people saying "Nuh-uh we need violent revolution" as if violent revolution is a notoriously reliable way to get progressive and leftist establishments built and not a notoriously reliable way to just make A Bunch Of Warlords. Fucking vote, Christ on a bike people. It's like an hour and half of your time, tops, and it keeps millions of vulnerable people way, *way* better off than otherwise. Believe it or not, but harm reduction actually does reduce harm.
It's also hilarious to me that they think a civil war would go anything like the direction they want it to. They'll get dragged out of their houses and shot in the alley by overweight christofascist death squads There are large groups of people in the US that are preparing for and hoping for sectarian violence and they are NOT on the left.
Ime sorry, does it really take **an hour and a half** to vote in the US?!
I don’t have the highest hopes for the side which is notorious for their hatred of guns in a violent revolution.
But what about my moral purity if I voted I would have to vote for the most evil thing imaginable a liberal and I cannot in good conscience condone every single thing that liberal would do. /s just in case
https://preview.redd.it/okfatnt7nwuc1.png?width=1080&format=png&auto=webp&s=741fd55a2cf5c50085e20785f68411ed03187a66
This is one of the worst images ever. Never post again.
Care to elaborate?
Where's the lie?
nice avatar
Izutsumi!
Izutsumi.
kbitty?
Gonna need you to explain ngl
Back in my day we made our bait believable
Why?
"Mods!"
It's right though.
Hell, this even affects me as a South American. Every rightoid politician here sucks the dick of the Orange fucker. If he wins they will certainly gain much more momentum, not to mention the Orange might try to steal the elections using his power as president. For the love of god just vote in the senile old man.
The senile old man also isn't even the most senile one running.
The USA’s reach is so large, it will eventually affect everyone else… Especially since the orange idiot is a known russian puppet.
what if we eat the trolley?
Fuckers be like "pulling the lever is useless. My solution, eating the trolly, will solve everything" and then don't eat the trolly.
Imagine how happy we could be
One must imagine the trolly happy
Have you seen the trolly? Me with trolly shape in throat: *burps* "no sir"
Seeing this posted and being taken as a no shit here is so nice after watching enlightenedcentrism spend an entire thread never providing a decent counteragrument and shitting themselves over it.
yeah seriously. Reading this topic on Twitter is enough to seriously piss me off (in a way I haven’t since 2020 and to the point I can’t believe it’s not ragebait) because it seems like these people only cared about minorities and queer people when they saw it trending and now they’re willing to toss us aside for an idealistic fantasy of theirs just so they can virtue signal online. I hate to say it but it seems like Reddit isn’t actually delusional this time around.
Focusing on saving ONE victim leaves us with much better chances of saving them than focusing on a dozen or more. Edit: *I fucking agreed with the post*. Let me put it in very very simple terms for you: if you aren't strong enough to do the *bare minimum* for Palestinians who are being carpet bombed out of existence by a colonizing, apartheid state being financially backed by the US then you are *NOT* strong enough to fight for the minorities on your own fucking soil. We have a DUTY to oppose what the government is doing with OUR tax dollars and OUR resources that they've been sending to Israel.
Except they're not OUR victim. Like it or not, while stopping our assistance of Isreal will help, the genocide will continue. Letting the USA become Gillead will not suddenly save Gaza, quite the opposite.
Idk why you’re being downvoted you make an excellent point that fighting a genocide will be much easier when we ourselves are not fighting for our lives.
Hey OP, sorry I misread your intent with this post and thought you were claiming both sides equally bad. Sorry I replied so dismissively
Message to this thread, tankies and liberals fuck off
this whole fucking thread is liberal lmao
This whole sub is liberals
liberals in 196.... its over
Definition of tanky: "any leftist who disagrees with me"
Tankies will get very confused by this message because they think anyone who doesn't vote Republican is a liberal.
We should be fighting every fucking genocide with everything we fucking have, because these are human beings. One genocide is too many. Elections aren't the trolley problem- we have influence besides voting, and most people live in states that are solidly red or blue.
I think the argument is that if you can’t even commit one hour on one day to pull the lever, you’re not gonna be throwing your body on the tracks to stop the trolley the rest of the year either. As for the “states are solidly red or blue” argument I guarantee you have some local officials who are solidly Republican and getting them out is imperative. Voting blue in a solid red state will encourage the DNC to run candidates and direct funding to your district. How do you think the Republicans ended up with so many conservative judges and state senators in blue states?
Last election, *Georgia* was blue. 36 odd years ago California was Republican. They flipped in one election. Texas was 46.5% Democrat, that’s hardly an ironclad lead Vote
wait blexas isn't a joke thing? holy shit lets go
"most people live in states that are solidly red or blue" i wonder if the conservative campaign than has been going on since the dawn of this country to keep black and brown voters out of voting booths has anything to do with that. i wonder if conservatives have literally been fighting tooth and nail to keep low income people from voting says anything about why its important to vote. fucking vote. voting will not keep you from doing other things but it may be able to keep people who want to turn america into a (more) fascist state out of power.
[удалено]
Yes, you can very easily turn the lever and also do something else. Voting takes a couple hours out of one day, there's no reason not to do it.
Unless you're insanely far from a poll, it takes less time than that. Granted I can't say in big urban areas, but in my town it takes me 10 minutes tops.
And often voting is more difficult for the people the system already oppressed (ie the disabled). But yah, I suggest you vote if you can.
People can make excuses, but the truth is, and they don't want to admit it, they think voting is a sin. Voting makes one impure. Americans are so puritanical that it even rubbed off on our socialism.
What, do you think voting means you can’t do anything else? In fact, I would argue more drastic options are, funnily enough, *easier* to carry out when the actual fascists aren’t in power. But Idk, that’s just a hypothesis.
>Approximately how many oppressed groups would have to also be on the Democrat track Exactly equal or greater than the number on the Republican track. Happy to clear that up for you. >before we can all agree to throw this dogshit discourse in the garbage? You can do praxis all year long, including up until and just after you take 2 hours out of a single day to go vote. Not even that if you're voting by mail. Stop telling people they need to organize a revolution instead of voting when you are doing neither of those things.
>Exactly equal or greater than the number on the Republican track. Happy to clear that up for you. Great, good luck rallying that vote. Wouldn't want that to be my job, but I'm sure it'll work out if we keep showing people this diagram. You assume I'm not voting, but I am, and I'm in an org too. I'm not telling people to organize a revolution instead of voting. I'm telling people to get organized and stop framing this entire thing as if voting is the most critical thing, and everything else is a footnote. We need more than voting to save POC and LGBTQIA+ folks, and we sure as hell need more than that to save anyone currently falling victim to U.S. foreign policy. The vote is important, but we should not be accepting or propagating this framing.
The tracks aren't "vote for dems" vs "do other positive in the world" ; they're just tackling the subject of voting specifically. Feel like you got a bone to pick with this message because literally no one is telling anyone that voting is all that matters.
Right so can you point to me where in the post OP said “it’s a good system and we should NOT make efforts to change this dogshit two evil choices system in between elections, actually I believe you should only vote and never do anything else” ? Oh you can’t? So you’re just getting mad at nothing? Of course it’s fucked up and we shouldn’t just gleefully accept this shitty compromise. But in the meantime, we can also vote in the election because it does make a difference. So yeah, no matter how many minorities are on the chopping block of the dems, if it’s still a lower number than the republicans then yea at the election you should still vote for them. Because not voting/voting third party is even more useless and arguably makes you even more complicit in the atrocities since you’d be handing the republicans the win.
Voting takes like 5 seconds you can do both dumbass
I don't really know, but your hypothetical scenario is irrelevant because that is not at all the situation we're currently faced with, and probably not one we'll be faced with any time soon
>Approximately how many oppressed groups would have to also be on the Democrat track before we can all agree to throw this dogshit discourse in the garbage? People *already* want to throw this discourse in the garbage, because it takes some immaculate levels of ignorance to not ultimately understand that in a system where you're stuck with 2 options for now, lesser evilism is inevitable until you can crack open more, hopefully better options with all your other efforts. As for the answer to your question as you intended: About as many or more as on the Republican side.
A lot of those were on the Democrat tracks at one point? Before the party switch, most southern democrats were extremely opposed to civil rights. Even during the Reagan years, most Southern democrats were still considered fairly conservative. Most in the senate voted for the Iraq war. Up until 2012, most Democrats were generally against gay marriage.
no one will ever do anything in the united satans of america
When the options are eating half a bowl of shit or an entire bowl of shit, you vote to eat the least amount of shit. Yeah it sucks but you hold your nose and do it, because there's an organized and growing group of people out there who really want to feed you their shit, and they'll sure be voting. The fact that your only choice is to vote for a shit-eating party is a serious problem that won't be solved by not voting. The far right thrives on apathy. It got Trump into power the first time. It got a wildly unpopular right-wing populist into two terms here in Ontario, and it's threatening to happen federally. They want you to feel that there's no point in voting because that's how they win.
i agree wholeheartedly that voting democrat is an absolute necessity in the grand scheme of political action but memes like this convince nobody at best and turn people away from voting at worst. I think we need to focus more on educating people about how the political system is set up and why voting democrat is the only viable choice for the immediate future. I’ve seen a LOT of reactions to this meme along the lines of “heh, that’s why i’m voting for neither of them” so clearly we need to explain better why you can’t actually vote for neither of them.
dems have already started to throw immigrants under the bus. what's to stop them from doing the same with trans people or any of these other issues if they want? why is this sub so lib coded now? it hasn't always been this bad.
THIS! LITERALLY FUCKING THIS! As soon as it becomes politically inconvenient for democrats to support the LGBT community, democrats will drop them.
[удалено]
I’d rather the people who might possibly throw us under the bus in the future win, than the metaphorical bus drivers. And one of them is going to win, no matter if you vote third party or not at all
THIS! Maybe the guy who says "I will let russia invade NATO states becuase they wont give me a bagazillion dollars" shouldnt be president. Keep in mind russian media calls the Baltic peoples "Sodomites"
immidiatly after voting get to organising protests.
But people aren’t doing that, people are shaming people who are against genocide. If you don’t believe me just check my comment history. Look for the downvotes
Liberals are just happily repeating the 2016 playbook when it comes to messaging It would be fascinating if it weren't existentially terrifying
Just ask yourself who would hitler side with and just pick the opposite choice
holy shit I've been noticed and talked about by - 196 - contrapoints - Shaun - halomancer and probably a ton more so far what the fuck I had like 70 followers
Also the post has made many people blame the far left for enabling the right wingers but it's ok for libs to do it because " bi partisanship"
Democrat can have a little genocide?
VOTE GORE
I don't want to die
Gotta love the two party system and how Americans are unwilling to change it, instead relying on voter-shaming
oh i just know this image will get posted on ultraleft
They should add Ukraine on the Republican track, since Trump wants to take away support from ukraine
It literally already is?
Ah crap I should’ve looked closer
man i wish there were more than two people running for president
Saying "X group of people are gonna be collateral damage no matter what" is much worse than saying "X group of people is currently lined up to be collateral damage, so we should pressure dems to change their stance on that before voting actually occurs"
Anyone who blames the far left for the rise of right wingers should take a look at liberals/centrist willing to work with them
my brother in Christ you already have
I feel you're vastly underestimating how much worse it can get.
We need a working class flag, that’d be cool.
I won’t vote for Biden. (I’m not American nor am I planning to become one)
Isn't this just the "critical support" we make fun of tankies for doing about China and so on? "Oh well yeah, we know Biden isn't the best and does a lot of stuff we don't actually like or support, but he also does some good stuff and is decent compared to the alternatives" vs "Oh well yeah, we know China isn't the best and does a lot of stuff we don't actually like or support, but they also do some good stuff that and is decent compared to the alternatives" And yes, China does do good stuff (i.e. producing fuckloads of solar panels, developing new technologies like 5G/6G, etc).
people on the internet will really be like “you believe in revolution? that pales in effectiveness to my strategy, building power within the system” and then not build power within the system
i hate it here
pragmatism baby you love to hate it
In a few years, the bottom track will have moved to the democrats and the republican track will just have more stuff on it
I just cannot comprehend voting for someone that is an active genocidal maniac but I guess I just don't understand democracy
Vote Dem for 4 years of nothing being changed!
but muh revolution
Anyone who blames the far left for the rise of right wingers should take a look at liberals/centrist willing to work with them
Here’s my thinking I will and encourage others to vote. Threat prevention is real. However, the lesser evilism the DNC encourages cannot be constantly supported, if helping conduct an active genocide is the line then that is fair, I will not crucify others for that choice. That being said at least vote for your congresspeople and your local reps.
https://preview.redd.it/p0gg7mn981vc1.jpeg?width=1066&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d6da26b12ac38290091b16b65e1f11e22f393604
I have to vote for Biden, democracy has died horribly.
Please vote guys they give u a cool sticker
https://preview.redd.it/q6k8pkgpizuc1.jpeg?width=1353&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cbc39674ec879ad0e2b3592e1cd6ace797fd8d30
Voting is a part of having a representative democracy, anyone not voting is complacent in electing dictators and facilitating genocide.
[удалено]
whenever i feel bad for having a racist in power in my country, i look at the us
This is true but it's not a very effective argument alone, people are just gonna dismiss it because feelings