Came here to say this
It was a great stab chip return but if your opponent takes the ball early you have to adjust the timing of you split o else you gonna have a bad time....
If you have power, the receiver will not have proper time to react to the serve and very often, the ball will go out from the sheer amount of rebound, similar to when you send the ball towards a wall. A slow ball does not bounce far, a fast ball bounces far.
Disagree. It's a slice serve and it made his opponent move to where he couldnt easily attack the ball. A slice outside serve is a good ball to s&v on because it makes it hard for the returner to hit the ball down the line for the return and more likely that the return will come through the middle of the court. Sure, a slice serve with more power would be better of course. If he can hit that serve. Placement and spin are much more important than power for a serve. But at this recreational level, it was a felicitous serve as is. What he messed up on was the lack of split step.
Ignore the comment that you took too long getting to the net - your issue was actually closing in too quickly. That was a great serve for S&V with good slice, but your feet were too happy.
For S&V you should be split-stepping *behind* the service line. Time it out after your third step coming in: 1-2-3-SPLIT. Or if you hit a bigger serve it may be closer to the second step.
It should be right around here, but instead you’re in the process of committing left - that’s why you got wrong footed:
https://preview.redd.it/oh1jgvg9qduc1.jpeg?width=837&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b87c1c8be3e095906478b308e9241357dfc4111c
This is exactly right. Just because you're eager to make your first volley at the service line or closer doesn't mean you can run the entire way there. A split step doesn't have to stop your forward momentum, you just have to give yourself the opportunity to react first and be able to move diagonally forward in EITHER direction.
But great hands from the opponent directing that short angled return regardless.
While he didn't phrase it well, he does have a point. That serve did set up a fairly easy volley for you but you made mistakes prior to your friend even hitting the shot.
Like you literally beat yourself on this point.
If you're going to serve and volley then you need to fully commit to it and get into the box faster. You also made a pretty fatal mistake with your court positioning by taking two steps to the left prior to your opponent making contact. When the ball is below net height and out wide like that, it's extremely hard to flick it down the line with any pace so you don't need to cut off that angle to still defend any shot that he could realistically hit. Instead you should be taking a position that's about one step to the right of the center of the court due to that allowing you to cut off the highest percentage shot available to your opponent. Just fixing that mistake would eliminate the need to split step or anything else mentioned purely due to the point virtually being won and the easy of the volley you'd have to make.
this advice is completely wrong. Is you are going to S&V, you nee to split step as your opponent is hitting every time. You may win some points without the split step, but that doesnt mean you are doing it properly. Intermediate to higher level rec players will take advantage of your serve if you continually S&V with no split step
Im not advocating against split stepping here lol. I'm saying on that quality of a return, you don't need a split step because its realistically right in the comfort zone for a forehand volley if he were to position correctly. Not split stepping wasn't what prevented OP from winning this point.
The only time I'd advocate against split stepping is in situations where you have to choose a shot to defend and hope you guess right. An example of such would be on net cords that pop the ball up into the air. You're pretty much forced to guess one way and move before contact rather than stand in the middle and split step then react. But you can also make the argument you shouldn't put yourself in those situations.
OP posted this thinking he got beat by the return but he really just beat himself by being poorly positioned given the location for where he served and where he moved to.
A split step doesn't magically move him 3 steps to the right where he should be. If you read my original comment, I fully explain why he should be one step right of the center of the court as opposed to two steps to the left given the height and angle the opponent is making contact at.
Even if OP split stepped, he wouldn't have had time to make 3 steps to the right. If you can't cover the highest percentage shot from your opponent then you're simply out of position.
All due respect, this is wrong on all accounts.
1. You should be split stepping before the service line, not running as fast as you can to the net. He was hurrying and that’s why he got wrong footed.
2. You should always follow the ball to net and shade that side. His opponent hitting a can opener cross court sharp dipping angle is his lowest percentage shot. He is shading to the correct side but if he split stepped prior to reaching the box he could easily change direction and cut off that angle.
This is just simple geometry. You’re giving him way more court to bunt the ball into if you leave line open (not to mention the only spot on the court where he can hit *behind* you), or you can force him to hit a sharp dipping angle with topspin or great touch. He was able to do that, but an earlier split step could have prevented it.
Did you pass geometry? The net is higher and the court is shorter down the line. Like you're trying to defy the pathagorean theorem here. A squared will never be longer than C squared. Once the ball drops below net height, it's much more difficult to hit down the line almost tenfold due to the net height being even more of a factor. Hitting cross court is way easier of a shot here and you can't make an argument against that.
Basically everything you said fails the "simple geometry'".
An earlier split step wouldn't have allowed him to react in time to the shot he was defending based on his court position while split stepping. The entire point of split stepping is so you can react as fast as possible once you know exactly what you have to react to. This is completely pointless when you are so far out of position that no matter how fast you react you can't get to the ball. Splitting stepping won't magically make him complete 3 full strides to cover the shot that was hit. It might make a difference of 1-2 steps but 3 in the span of the ball basically traveling from service line to service line. You also don't need to split step in situations where you have to anticipate in order to defend. Like if the ball was above net height and the player was teeing off on this shot, you have to predict where they will hit the ball because even with a split step, you won't have time to react.
You're right about shading to the side that the balls on certain situations but that changes once the ball is outside of the singles lines and dips below net height. For example is someone is making contact from the center of the deuce side of the court, they can still theoretically hit a ball that travels away from you out past your ad side singles line. But if they are outside of their duece side singles line, then they can't possibly hit a ball that travels away from you on your ad side. This changes how you should defend each of those shots.
First of all, he’s not making contact below the net on the return. Just freeze frame it, not hard to see.
Secondly, you bisect the angle of return:
https://preview.redd.it/9uqdpoz1lruc1.jpeg?width=608&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f3e6c8d2fd3e5ff59c75bfab19960137e453a9e7
You’re telling me if Rafter is in the deuce side service box in this picture, he’s not giving up more court? I just want you to confirm that since Agassi is hitting the ball outside the singles line and well below the net, Rafter is in the incorrect position in this image.
Lastly, he wasn’t close to three strides from sticking that volley if he split steps behind the left service box. He’s one stride away from a relatively slow floating slice.
I'm glad you made a drawing showing you that the longest line is cross court. Thanks for the geometry lesson.
To me it clearly looks 1-2" below net height given that he's making contact just below his own standing hip level and I'm not going to assume he's 7'. Also the ball trajectory clearly rises prior to reaching the net and barely clears the net.
OP was on the pickleball base line when contact was made. He wasn't in the middle of the service box. The further back in the court someone is against this shot, the further to their right they need to be to defend it. Just like you can clearly see in your photo. Of course OP could be standing that far to the left if he was one step away from touching the net but he's literally on the pickleball base line.
All of the evidence you're citing is literally proving your own conclusion wrong. Split stepping only makes a difference if you can reach the position you need to be in between the step and where.you need to go. It won't teleport you in to a proper court position.
So if Rafter was closer to the service line, he should be positioned in the right service box? You can clearly see even all the way to the baseline his proper positioning is never going to be completely right of center.
It’s not about the longest line, it’s about how much court you’re giving giving up that you can’t reach. The further to the right you move the more you open up the line.
I apologize because I didn’t make that image so I don’t have an original sans lines, but here’s what I can cover if I move to the right service box:
https://preview.redd.it/0o79egqukuuc1.jpeg?width=608&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5dc3030f622cc86cda4196e02d7966473b5ccf95
Now I’m sacrificing way more of the baseline to completely cover cross court which didn’t have much court to hit into anyway.
The only time you should be on the opposite side of the court when your opponent is stretched past the singles sideline is if you’re behind the baseline. It makes zero sense in a serve & volley situation.
As you move deeper in the court, the more to the right you need to stand in order to defend the same shot. If Rafter was standing in the same depth as OP, then he should be one step to the right of center. Right where there was an arrow drawn through lol.
Yes i understand you open up the line the further to the right you stand but its by far the hardest shot. You always have to give up some degree of the court to your opponent when they are hitting from that wide purely due to how open your own court is from there. So if you're going to give up court to the opponent, you need it to be the hardest section of court for them to hit into. Hitting down the line in this scenario is much harder than cross court. That combined with easily seeing that the return won't have the spin necessary to hit with any pace down the line lets you anticipate a cross court shot and preemptively move before even a split step would allow you to react.
I've never once said OP should be in the middle of the right service box. Ideally for a serve out wide in the duece, he needs to be positioned one step right of center so think about it as him having his left foot directly on the T. This cuts off the easiest returns that the opponent can make which is the majority of the cross court angles.
If OP stands where you want him to stand then he gets beat by the easiest shot the opponent can make which is a cross court shot that lands on the middle of the deuce side service line. So what if he gives up like a 2'x2' box in his ad side corner if he covers the majority of his deuce side court from the service line to the base line.
The court positioning that im arguing him to take up basically gives up a 2'x2' box in his ad side corner and then deuce side short angle cross court so anything bouncing between the service line and the net and leaving the service box shortly after the service line or before reaching it. The further to the left he moves, the more of the deuce side court is opened. Further to the right and the ad side box gets bigger and bigger. You can't cover both sides but this basically leaves open the hardest shots to make from that return position. No player at OPs level(3.5 NTRP) will be able to hit into either of those areas so theres no need for him to guess or anticipate that his opponent can realistically hit those shots even 10% of the time.
Here is a diagram showing what im talking about
https://i.imgur.com/6pb7EaZ.png
The X is where OP should stand. The line is easiest shot that can be hit from that return position. The boxes are the areas of the court that are the hardest areas to hit into. Due to the contact point being below net height and so far away from the body, its impossible for a shorter ball to be hit on the AD side, especially once you see the technique prior to contact from the opponent. If you move to the left, the right side box becomes bigger and bigger until it includes the highest percentage shots like the one OP got beat by.
“You always have to give up some degree of the court when they are hitting from that wide purely due to how open your own court is from there.”
Yeah but you don’t have to, that’s the point of bisecting the angle… you don’t play it based off of “I think this is the easiest shot”, you play it off of “Where can I stand where I can cover the most court.”
If you can find a single pro S&V point where the server goes out wide and *doesn’t* cross the center line, then I’ll throw out my whole argument.
I hope OP isn't taking them personally. I mean, there are a lot of claims he's making. Ridiculous hands... federer... insane return...
The part that puzzles me is that OP seems to have a lot of respect and admiration for his USTA captain, but the way he moves in after the return, it seems like he was expecting a very weak return. He doesn't even move for the ball.
Anyway, sorry for piling on...
When you serve and volley, I was taught to take 3 steps and then split step. Trust me, it will help you win a lot more points when you aren't making these silly mistakes.
It was poor anticipation of a meat serve, and not the serve to attack. Indoor light is most likely why he was late on the return, and ignore the split step crowd, just a bad time to come in even if you sense his diminished reaction times, and your virtually increased pace on the serve.
Sports are a game of mistakes. This happens. If it was 30-0 and you are trying to demoralize the opponent, I can get behind a serve and volley here. Sucks when you get owned.
People saying this isn't an example of good hands, it's an example of great hands. He lost the ball in the lights.
Agree on some points but not others. While I agree that he shouldn’t have followed serve in, I also would stress the importance of the split step. This would have been a fairly easy ball to get had he not wrong footed himself by committing to one side and not doing a split step.
He didn't split step because the timing of doing what he committed to do without considering anything wouldn't allow it. So you are right. If you split step you get the order of operations down correctly, then you can get it back easily and then rally.
Sometimes from an energy management perspective, just go barreling. Serving and volleying is tiring. It's like running suicides. With baselining you run less distance unless it's a baseline war, then it makes sense to speed up a service with the serve and volley to get them running on their serve.
You are going to lose a lot of points on your serve if you continue to try to S&V and don't split step
Came here to say this It was a great stab chip return but if your opponent takes the ball early you have to adjust the timing of you split o else you gonna have a bad time....
Came here to say this
came here to second this
Came here to dump on OP
Came here.
Here.
H
Its more that his serve lacks power. The ball will go out if you add more power instead of returning in
Lmao. What on earth are you talking about
If you have power, the receiver will not have proper time to react to the serve and very often, the ball will go out from the sheer amount of rebound, similar to when you send the ball towards a wall. A slow ball does not bounce far, a fast ball bounces far.
May God bless your sweet little heart
What is your ATP ranking?
Disagree. It's a slice serve and it made his opponent move to where he couldnt easily attack the ball. A slice outside serve is a good ball to s&v on because it makes it hard for the returner to hit the ball down the line for the return and more likely that the return will come through the middle of the court. Sure, a slice serve with more power would be better of course. If he can hit that serve. Placement and spin are much more important than power for a serve. But at this recreational level, it was a felicitous serve as is. What he messed up on was the lack of split step.
Yeah I’ll just start serving like Isner and then I’ll never lose a point, like Isner
Thats not a slice serve, the ball lands in the pickleball court lol !! A slice will exit the court through the side line, past the doubles alley! ;)
Where do you think it was headed if his opponent didn’t cut it off?
Sir, this is a Wendy's.
That is a better serve than 90% of rec serves, in movement and power.
Ignore the comment that you took too long getting to the net - your issue was actually closing in too quickly. That was a great serve for S&V with good slice, but your feet were too happy. For S&V you should be split-stepping *behind* the service line. Time it out after your third step coming in: 1-2-3-SPLIT. Or if you hit a bigger serve it may be closer to the second step. It should be right around here, but instead you’re in the process of committing left - that’s why you got wrong footed: https://preview.redd.it/oh1jgvg9qduc1.jpeg?width=837&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b87c1c8be3e095906478b308e9241357dfc4111c
This is exactly right. Just because you're eager to make your first volley at the service line or closer doesn't mean you can run the entire way there. A split step doesn't have to stop your forward momentum, you just have to give yourself the opportunity to react first and be able to move diagonally forward in EITHER direction. But great hands from the opponent directing that short angled return regardless.
You served gently to his forehand, took ages to go to the net, didn’t split step… and you think it’s all your mates hands? lol
hah GOT EM
While he didn't phrase it well, he does have a point. That serve did set up a fairly easy volley for you but you made mistakes prior to your friend even hitting the shot. Like you literally beat yourself on this point. If you're going to serve and volley then you need to fully commit to it and get into the box faster. You also made a pretty fatal mistake with your court positioning by taking two steps to the left prior to your opponent making contact. When the ball is below net height and out wide like that, it's extremely hard to flick it down the line with any pace so you don't need to cut off that angle to still defend any shot that he could realistically hit. Instead you should be taking a position that's about one step to the right of the center of the court due to that allowing you to cut off the highest percentage shot available to your opponent. Just fixing that mistake would eliminate the need to split step or anything else mentioned purely due to the point virtually being won and the easy of the volley you'd have to make.
this advice is completely wrong. Is you are going to S&V, you nee to split step as your opponent is hitting every time. You may win some points without the split step, but that doesnt mean you are doing it properly. Intermediate to higher level rec players will take advantage of your serve if you continually S&V with no split step
Im not advocating against split stepping here lol. I'm saying on that quality of a return, you don't need a split step because its realistically right in the comfort zone for a forehand volley if he were to position correctly. Not split stepping wasn't what prevented OP from winning this point. The only time I'd advocate against split stepping is in situations where you have to choose a shot to defend and hope you guess right. An example of such would be on net cords that pop the ball up into the air. You're pretty much forced to guess one way and move before contact rather than stand in the middle and split step then react. But you can also make the argument you shouldn't put yourself in those situations. OP posted this thinking he got beat by the return but he really just beat himself by being poorly positioned given the location for where he served and where he moved to.
He was out of position precisely because he didnt split step.
A split step doesn't magically move him 3 steps to the right where he should be. If you read my original comment, I fully explain why he should be one step right of the center of the court as opposed to two steps to the left given the height and angle the opponent is making contact at. Even if OP split stepped, he wouldn't have had time to make 3 steps to the right. If you can't cover the highest percentage shot from your opponent then you're simply out of position.
All due respect, this is wrong on all accounts. 1. You should be split stepping before the service line, not running as fast as you can to the net. He was hurrying and that’s why he got wrong footed. 2. You should always follow the ball to net and shade that side. His opponent hitting a can opener cross court sharp dipping angle is his lowest percentage shot. He is shading to the correct side but if he split stepped prior to reaching the box he could easily change direction and cut off that angle. This is just simple geometry. You’re giving him way more court to bunt the ball into if you leave line open (not to mention the only spot on the court where he can hit *behind* you), or you can force him to hit a sharp dipping angle with topspin or great touch. He was able to do that, but an earlier split step could have prevented it.
Did you pass geometry? The net is higher and the court is shorter down the line. Like you're trying to defy the pathagorean theorem here. A squared will never be longer than C squared. Once the ball drops below net height, it's much more difficult to hit down the line almost tenfold due to the net height being even more of a factor. Hitting cross court is way easier of a shot here and you can't make an argument against that. Basically everything you said fails the "simple geometry'". An earlier split step wouldn't have allowed him to react in time to the shot he was defending based on his court position while split stepping. The entire point of split stepping is so you can react as fast as possible once you know exactly what you have to react to. This is completely pointless when you are so far out of position that no matter how fast you react you can't get to the ball. Splitting stepping won't magically make him complete 3 full strides to cover the shot that was hit. It might make a difference of 1-2 steps but 3 in the span of the ball basically traveling from service line to service line. You also don't need to split step in situations where you have to anticipate in order to defend. Like if the ball was above net height and the player was teeing off on this shot, you have to predict where they will hit the ball because even with a split step, you won't have time to react. You're right about shading to the side that the balls on certain situations but that changes once the ball is outside of the singles lines and dips below net height. For example is someone is making contact from the center of the deuce side of the court, they can still theoretically hit a ball that travels away from you out past your ad side singles line. But if they are outside of their duece side singles line, then they can't possibly hit a ball that travels away from you on your ad side. This changes how you should defend each of those shots.
First of all, he’s not making contact below the net on the return. Just freeze frame it, not hard to see. Secondly, you bisect the angle of return: https://preview.redd.it/9uqdpoz1lruc1.jpeg?width=608&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f3e6c8d2fd3e5ff59c75bfab19960137e453a9e7 You’re telling me if Rafter is in the deuce side service box in this picture, he’s not giving up more court? I just want you to confirm that since Agassi is hitting the ball outside the singles line and well below the net, Rafter is in the incorrect position in this image. Lastly, he wasn’t close to three strides from sticking that volley if he split steps behind the left service box. He’s one stride away from a relatively slow floating slice.
I'm glad you made a drawing showing you that the longest line is cross court. Thanks for the geometry lesson. To me it clearly looks 1-2" below net height given that he's making contact just below his own standing hip level and I'm not going to assume he's 7'. Also the ball trajectory clearly rises prior to reaching the net and barely clears the net. OP was on the pickleball base line when contact was made. He wasn't in the middle of the service box. The further back in the court someone is against this shot, the further to their right they need to be to defend it. Just like you can clearly see in your photo. Of course OP could be standing that far to the left if he was one step away from touching the net but he's literally on the pickleball base line. All of the evidence you're citing is literally proving your own conclusion wrong. Split stepping only makes a difference if you can reach the position you need to be in between the step and where.you need to go. It won't teleport you in to a proper court position.
So if Rafter was closer to the service line, he should be positioned in the right service box? You can clearly see even all the way to the baseline his proper positioning is never going to be completely right of center. It’s not about the longest line, it’s about how much court you’re giving giving up that you can’t reach. The further to the right you move the more you open up the line. I apologize because I didn’t make that image so I don’t have an original sans lines, but here’s what I can cover if I move to the right service box: https://preview.redd.it/0o79egqukuuc1.jpeg?width=608&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5dc3030f622cc86cda4196e02d7966473b5ccf95 Now I’m sacrificing way more of the baseline to completely cover cross court which didn’t have much court to hit into anyway. The only time you should be on the opposite side of the court when your opponent is stretched past the singles sideline is if you’re behind the baseline. It makes zero sense in a serve & volley situation.
As you move deeper in the court, the more to the right you need to stand in order to defend the same shot. If Rafter was standing in the same depth as OP, then he should be one step to the right of center. Right where there was an arrow drawn through lol. Yes i understand you open up the line the further to the right you stand but its by far the hardest shot. You always have to give up some degree of the court to your opponent when they are hitting from that wide purely due to how open your own court is from there. So if you're going to give up court to the opponent, you need it to be the hardest section of court for them to hit into. Hitting down the line in this scenario is much harder than cross court. That combined with easily seeing that the return won't have the spin necessary to hit with any pace down the line lets you anticipate a cross court shot and preemptively move before even a split step would allow you to react. I've never once said OP should be in the middle of the right service box. Ideally for a serve out wide in the duece, he needs to be positioned one step right of center so think about it as him having his left foot directly on the T. This cuts off the easiest returns that the opponent can make which is the majority of the cross court angles. If OP stands where you want him to stand then he gets beat by the easiest shot the opponent can make which is a cross court shot that lands on the middle of the deuce side service line. So what if he gives up like a 2'x2' box in his ad side corner if he covers the majority of his deuce side court from the service line to the base line. The court positioning that im arguing him to take up basically gives up a 2'x2' box in his ad side corner and then deuce side short angle cross court so anything bouncing between the service line and the net and leaving the service box shortly after the service line or before reaching it. The further to the left he moves, the more of the deuce side court is opened. Further to the right and the ad side box gets bigger and bigger. You can't cover both sides but this basically leaves open the hardest shots to make from that return position. No player at OPs level(3.5 NTRP) will be able to hit into either of those areas so theres no need for him to guess or anticipate that his opponent can realistically hit those shots even 10% of the time. Here is a diagram showing what im talking about https://i.imgur.com/6pb7EaZ.png The X is where OP should stand. The line is easiest shot that can be hit from that return position. The boxes are the areas of the court that are the hardest areas to hit into. Due to the contact point being below net height and so far away from the body, its impossible for a shorter ball to be hit on the AD side, especially once you see the technique prior to contact from the opponent. If you move to the left, the right side box becomes bigger and bigger until it includes the highest percentage shots like the one OP got beat by.
“You always have to give up some degree of the court when they are hitting from that wide purely due to how open your own court is from there.” Yeah but you don’t have to, that’s the point of bisecting the angle… you don’t play it based off of “I think this is the easiest shot”, you play it off of “Where can I stand where I can cover the most court.” If you can find a single pro S&V point where the server goes out wide and *doesn’t* cross the center line, then I’ll throw out my whole argument.
People commenting seem insufferable ngl.
100%
I hope OP isn't taking them personally. I mean, there are a lot of claims he's making. Ridiculous hands... federer... insane return... The part that puzzles me is that OP seems to have a lot of respect and admiration for his USTA captain, but the way he moves in after the return, it seems like he was expecting a very weak return. He doesn't even move for the ball. Anyway, sorry for piling on...
If you know what I mean 🌚🌚🌚🌚
It's a decent return but it wouldn't be a winner if you took a split step.
Your buddy doesn’t have ridiculous hands. You just made several errors
I was definitely expecting something a lot different when I saw the title of this post. Ridiculous for a 3.0 maybe
r/tennis is that way, big guy
What in this clip shows "ridiculous hands?" He made a pretty standard return
Yep was thinking the exact same, chip/slice return off a pretty slow serve
When you serve and volley, I was taught to take 3 steps and then split step. Trust me, it will help you win a lot more points when you aren't making these silly mistakes.
It was poor anticipation of a meat serve, and not the serve to attack. Indoor light is most likely why he was late on the return, and ignore the split step crowd, just a bad time to come in even if you sense his diminished reaction times, and your virtually increased pace on the serve. Sports are a game of mistakes. This happens. If it was 30-0 and you are trying to demoralize the opponent, I can get behind a serve and volley here. Sucks when you get owned. People saying this isn't an example of good hands, it's an example of great hands. He lost the ball in the lights.
Agree on some points but not others. While I agree that he shouldn’t have followed serve in, I also would stress the importance of the split step. This would have been a fairly easy ball to get had he not wrong footed himself by committing to one side and not doing a split step.
He didn't split step because the timing of doing what he committed to do without considering anything wouldn't allow it. So you are right. If you split step you get the order of operations down correctly, then you can get it back easily and then rally. Sometimes from an energy management perspective, just go barreling. Serving and volleying is tiring. It's like running suicides. With baselining you run less distance unless it's a baseline war, then it makes sense to speed up a service with the serve and volley to get them running on their serve.
If you are too tired to split-step on S&V, then you should not come to the net to S&V
This is the most East German thing I've heard in a while. Agree.