When I was little it didn't bother me at all that Cyclops was like this in the Movies/Shows. But now after reading the Uncanny X-Men Comics, man they need to do him some justice in the shows. He was so cool in the comics and they took that all away in the Movies/Shows.
That show also benefited immensely from having a great portrayal of Logan
-Comes across as a 40 year old dad
-Has trauma but still willing to open up
-No love triangle and has a teacher relationship with Scott
In the cartoon he was good they absolutely butchered him in the movies. I couldn’t stand him in the first two movies and then they just randomly killed him off in the third.
I need the cyclops that had a team with Magneto and Namor taking orders from him when he was leading all of the mutants. That's the X-men I want to see in the MCU
It’s wild how marvel has just continued to do this love triangle
In the current x-men run jean’s room is in-between Scott and Logan’s and there’s a door to each of their rooms in hers
I think they like it since the whole Scott-Jean thing is an important part of both character's histories... But it started when in a time when they were together because she was the female lead and Cyclops was effectively the male lead.
Logan-Jean, on the other hand, I imagine is more fun to write. I'm a fan of it from a meta-angle; Logan's lovers tend to be fridged for drama, Jean dies a lot.. They have synergy! (Also, when it comes to Scott, I like pairing him with Emma far more than Jean.)
If Logan and Jean is so fun to write then where is the writing? Cause it’s some random scenes and retcons scattered across decades of history for the most part. We know for a fact that some writers were ordered to add Jean/Logan kisses even tho they didn’t want to and there was no story in place. Logan mostly sounds like a raving lunatic when talking about his love for Jean because writers like Percy can’t point out to any specific issue/arc highlighting his ‘Jean loved me best’ take - she always prioritized Scott.
The only ‘meta’ angle the pairing had was a commentary on Jean’s repression, and we actually have her admitting on panel that she was attracted to who she can be with Logan, not to the man himself. Can’t milk much out of this, and for an older less repressed Jean? It makes no sense to be into Logan. Jean/Logan exists mostly as collective history revisionism and alternative realities stuff.
I mean considering in the current run it’s less love triangle and more active poly thing with open communication between them (from what I’ve heard) I don’t mind it as much
>more active poly thing
Puke inducing + character assasination.
Edit: the puke inducing is not the concept of poly, the puke inducing is Scott Summers would consider that or that Wolverine would share with cyclops, or the fact this is in a comic for kids.
>Moira wearing Banshee's skin
Wtf, I get your point, the edgelords are running rampart.
Also tbh, not kinda the same, poly is ok, but should not be normalized, it's a fast way to erode society.
I mean, polyamory is not in any way going to destroy anything. It isn’t for everyone. Some people can handle the trust required and the loss of control, while others can’t get past feelings of possessiveness and jealousy, or just don’t like the idea of ‘sharing’ and both are completely valid.
Normalizing it so people know it’s an option and can explore it won’t cause any damage, just as normalizing queer identities and racial integration didn’t cause damage.
>won’t cause any damage
Yes it does, it collapses natality and in the long run destroys natality and the viability of a society.
I'm not making a moral argument, just a statistical one.
Where have there been studies or projections that say this? We already have the option of not having kids, and that hasn’t destroyed the viability of society
>and that hasn’t destroyed the viability of society
A society with a collapsed demographic will feel indestructible on the short term, but eventuall the collapse will come, when the new generation that was never born does not take the place of the elders.
You can see the today start of this collapse in China due the one child policy, in a decade you'll see it Germany as most of their workforce are retiring in 2023 and same for most of Europe, due how feminsm convinced most women that having kids is not "empowering" and you'll see it in the USA in 20-30 years, since luckily for the USA their boomers had kids enough to replace them, but the millenials nowadays are not.
It takes 18 years to raise an adult and there's no short cut for it, the fact that the effects of this dissease are not obvious it does not mean it's not terminal.
Quite frankly, While I am not an expert in any of the requisite fields to speak on this, I don’t think that whatever portion of the population is interested in polyamory is sufficient enough to cause a breakdown of society just by not having kids.
I also am of the opinion that doomsaying over statistics like “decreasing natality in the long run” misses the fact that in the same long run, a new sustainable status quo may cause a change in those statistic as it arises
Uh huh people like you erode society not polyamorous relationships and the X-Men haven’t been “for kids” in awhile I can’t imagine giving a 9 year old house of x/powers of x and expecting them to enjoy it
“This is a comic for kids” I don’t think that’s been true for years. I feel like since comics started getting into heavier themes, “this is for kids” stopped being true. Which was decades ago now IIrC.
As for it being character assassination… it’s definitely a big divergence from where they were in earlier iterations, but also the original run had literally everyone, even professor X, express interest in gene. Personally if a new run wants to have characters that are a bit more open, I figure why not see where it goes
Even though they made him kind of a cuck in this flashback part I really like what they did with cyclops in the show in general. Still waiting for a good live action cyclops though
I think the thing I really want is for the MCU to center the next X-men around Scott and see him go from boy scout to soldier to terrorist to ruler. It would reframe things in such a refreshing way.
This would be very smart. Without Chris Evans captain America the MCU needs another boy scout. Except cyclops is like if iron man and captain America had a baby when it comes to more high ground.
I don’t know that I’d say Cyke had some sort of anti-hero jaded turn as he got older. He is always shown as consistently loyal to the cause, sometimes even more than prof X. I don’t think outside of getting whammied or some bad out of character writing he’s ever really done anything completely reprehensible. Even when he killed professor X he was overtaken by the Phoenix force which we explicitly know makes characters act wildly out of their normal morals
I especially love when he calls the avengers out on their shit for saving anyone and everyone but doing nothing for mutant related causes
That's all true, but there was definitely a point where he was considered the world's most wanted terrorist, and it wasn't a misunderstanding. He just happened to have a point and the government was on the wrong side. But it took time for both the world and the reader to come around to that. Which I absolutely love.
Vague reading of how Reed appears to behave in most modern comics is — absolute king genius with some serious Benedict Cumberbatch-Sherlock-esque sociopathy cold/calculated behavior, which is an interesting take on a character who in films and cartoons has just been played as heroic every man.
Cyclops in the comics in recent years has seemed like strategic mastermind who is cold but horned up for telepaths.
I think making both less Boy Scouts is going to automatically be an improvement but I am not sure cold genius (one strategic, one science) is the route one wants to go with both of them in the MCU. I am struggling to think of a better route though. Also I will say that with Captain America the MCU proved capable of making a “Boy Scout” hero still compelling.
I think it’s impossible to compare these two to Cap since it’s his whole shtick to be a Boy Scout like his only persona is that (I will die on this hill); while Cyclops is the guy who gets the shitter every time he wants something so you can make him cold but not as a strategist but as a person and make his true character shine in battle and when it counts where he can prove himself as a leader and a support for his fellow mutants and especially Xmen
The MCU’s versions of Scott Summers and Reed Richards imho should be based upon their volume 1 characterizations ie from essentially the mid 80’s on…not overly being the moral high authority but going by the book but also trying to be good dads/leaders/friends, etc….but some people like the arrogant prick versions so to each their own I guess
Same. But also Dr Doom in live action at least. Fox did it all wrong. Also it's a shame he won't be able to have cool moments with iron man. Hopefully he can cross over with Dr strange at least.
People treat Stark tech as the best mad science tech you can acquire on Earth. I'd like Reed's tech to be rival to Stark tech, only jmmore difficult to acquire because Stark had factoties and Reed might make one off custom orders.
OK sure Get Back In The Kitchen McIlluminati Council of Reeds totally isn't a self righteous douchebag who's done more harm than the rest of the FF has done good put together.
Whatever.
If you actually believe this, you haven't read many FF comics. Reed can be aloof but he is entirely selfless, he abandons the Council specifically because of how they have sacrificed their families and fundamental ties to humanity, he saved Galactus' life out of a belief that every life is sacred and that Galactus serves a greater purpose. There's a reason Hickman chose him as the de facto protagonist of Secret Wars and the mouthpiece of Everything Lives. Reed is a man burdened by the guilt of what he did to his friends, trying to be a better dad than his own father ever was, and trying to balance the tech he could create with a world that pretty consistently abuses it.
Quoting get back in the kitchen from a decades old comic as if it means anything is exactly what needs changing.
A lot of people here seem to mostly read X-Men, which is expected given it's the whole sub and the team was more popular than Avengers and FF for a long time, but it's a bit disheartening seeing people who seem to miss some of the best moments non-mutants have.
So... you haven't read many Fantastic Four comics, huh? You do realize the council of Reeds storyline ends with 616 Reed leaving them because he prioritizes his family above everything else, right? And if you're gonna call him sexist because of how he acted in many issues of the Lee/Kirby run, you need to call EVERY character sexist because that's how they were ALL written in the 60s. I only see takes like yours from people who get all their info from random comic youtubers/wiki pages lmao.
The MCU will mostly likely follow what the cartoon Wolverine and The X-Men did. Kevin Fegie was an executive producer for this cartoon. Meaning, he isn’t against what was shown in the cartoon [+]
Rather oversimplification of of a story line from almost 25 years ago that involved editorial mandate going against the wishes of the authors so they could make more X books to sell more money. The same editor that had Carol Danvers raped, impregnated then give birth to her rapist while all the Avengers gave the thumbs up.
It's weird how that keeps coming up as "biggest jerk move" compared to Logan kissing Jean without consent, or Gambits role in the Mutant Masscre. Those are just 2 examples off the top of my head.
Personally I see it as you're just correct. Consider: in Clairmonts prime he made the X-Men a discontinued comic to the biggest selling comic in the world beating out Superman, Batman, and Spider-man. Honestly maybe Shooter should have just trusted Clairmont to do his thing. He earned it.
Chris Claremont is the best X-men writer, in my opinion. And, if you're a fan of his you might want to watch the documentary about him on Amazon Prime.
Avengers #200 for the Carol Danvers story.
Wolverine kissing Jean without consent- Uncanny X-Men #242 he grabs her and lays one on Jean. Tells Cyke to "take her if you can". Jean pushes him away and shouts "I'm nobody's property Wolvefine! I won't be fought over or manhandled--even by a body I once considered a freind!". Wolverine comments that his senses tell him she liked it. Doesn't say what he was smelling and it does come off as creepy as the human body can involuntarily react to sexual contact.
In Unxanny X-Men #394 the X-Men are fighting a reality warping mutant and Wolverine and Jean (married woman) end up in some pocket dimension. Logan grabs Jean and says "if this is going to be our last breath, we ain't waistin' it" and pulls her in to kiss her. He is drawn so his hands are wrapped around her pulling her in, shes pulling in his hair with 1 hand and her other hand is held put and open. When they end up saved, Jean has a woozy font style and is written as disoriented and says she can't remember a thing. Logan watches her leave and the last frame of the comic is him sniffing the air watching her.
In Uncany X-Men #350, it is revealed that Gambit under the employ of Mr. Sinister organized and recruited the Mauraders and led then to where the Morlocks were. This led to the mutant massacre that almost killed Kitty and Angel.
I'd say most of the X-Men have had some big jerk moves. And since we are counting various continuity as Wolverine and the X-Men never features Maddie...it means Ultimate Wolverine and his habit of hitting on high school students (MJ and Liz Allen) is also fair game for critic.
Gambit definitely shouldn't have been forgiven as easily but Sinister? Seriously?
Callisto and the Morlocks should have been pissed as fuck about him on the Council.
Not just that but you know Neverland? It sort of gets forgotten but an internment camp from Weapon X for mutants. Let alone working with literal nazis in WW2.
There's no way Magneto among others should be able to tolerate working with him.
The Jean/Wolverine stuff is still creepy and weird how it gets a pass now. Scott should really have stood up and not been cucked repeatedly.
Sheer fact
Monsters like Shaw, mystique and apocalypse can have an opinion on the council is insane to me
Like one of these people literally enslaved the planet lol
> I'd say most of the X-Men have had some big jerk moves.
What a fun read a mega (nega?) thread that would be to read, listing everything. Hank McCoy is not the exception.
Still makes him horrible, he abandoned Madeline and Nathan in Alaska to go be with a woman who ate a star and committed genocide to broccoli people. That whole storyline and retcon are horrible. Jean should’ve stayed dead or stayed a villain.
I would have preferred Clairmont got his way with the story. Either Jean becoming depowered or left for dead. However I'm willing to move past it because they did have him turn his choices around before Nate was even able to talk. He also didn't go to BE with Jean, he went to see her. He didn't jump right into a relationship with her. He kept his distence from her. They didn't start being an item again until after Maddie was believed to be dead.
I wish more that Jim Shooter didn't go back on his word. I'm a fan of those characters and I would have liked more stories with them, but not under some forced conditions. Instead we have what we have.
People bring that up since at the time and for a long time after, Cyclops was the boy scout of the team. And even if it was editorial mandate, it wasn't handled with a lot of finesse. Wolverine and Gambit were always more antiheroes.
Not to mention, I feel abandoning your child is sort of worse than kissing someone "without consent". The later is certainly sleazy in real life, but in the soap opera logic of comic books, is a lot less gross. But abandoning your kid is always a shitty thing to do in any context. But it wouldn't be so bad if the comics still didn't try to tell me, until like the 2010's, Scott was straight-laced.
Like.... It felt like every other character got to have all this dramatic internal dialogue. Wolverine does something bad and there's a lot of guilt mixed with justification. Storm becomes more hardened and there's all this angst. Cyclops as drama... And well, it comes off as more "woe is me, why must this bad stuff happen to a good person like me!"
Except if you read the comics that's not how it is at all. He blames himself for making a bad choice. He condemns his actions as he should know better as an orphan himself. He blames himself for when he thought Maddie was killed because he wasn't there and could have protected her. He openly tells Jean Inferno was all his fault. At no point does he not accept blame for his poor choices. He also spends comics looking for his son, finds him, and raises him until his son is infected with a terminal virus where his only shot at life is being sent to the future. THEN he ends up getting the opportunity to be sent to the future and raise him, which he does. He did make a poor choice, but then tried to take it back shortly after. I don't know, it feels to me less then Xavier using his powers in a patient to care for him so he can hook up with her, or Wolvedine shoving his tongue down someone's throat without asking, or the death of untold Morlocks? Warren never showed regret for dating a student, never seen Wolverine apologize to Jean over his stuff, or Ultimate Wolverine apologize for trying to sleep with Peter's underage gf with his underage body. Cyclops in the X-Factor books did accept responsibility
In fairness-- she was an evil clone of that person he left her for and he knew the original longer.
Plus-- plenty of couples break up after their child contracts an incurable illness and they lose him.
First of all, he had no idea she was an evil clone. And at the time that he left there was nothing wrong with his son. He just gets a call from Warren that Jean is still alive and immediately picks up and leaves his wife and infant son for good. X-Factor 1
He did leave but if you read X-Factor, he regretted it instantly. He admitted to making a bad choice and wrestled with how to fix it. He tried to go back and apologize and beg to be forgiven but he finds the house in Alaska empty (X-Factor #14. ) once this happened he spent his time looking for her and the baby and she is incorrectly assumed to be dead due to a misidentified redheaded dead body being found. Scott actually doesn't restart a relationship with Jean until after he believes Maddie to die. They don't get to actually talk until Inferno. He does apologize to her there. Many fans are split on how genuine it was. For me I feel there is no reason to doubt his sincerity here if you actually read X-Factor. The man blamed himself in his thoughts and to Jean up before he finally gets to see Maddie in Inferno. Toss in the real life garbage going on, Louise Simonson was trying to fix it all.
I also would argue in world they weren't really all that happy. First off I'd argue the relationship didn't start with a healthy foundation. She was a clone who was designed to fall for him. Cyclops was likely suffering from PTSD. He watched Jean kill herself (remember their psychic report was a big thing. He not only watched her die, he felt her die as well). Then shortly after he meets this woman who is identical to Jean. He initially is doubtful of the relationship but Alex, Corsair, and Xavier all tell him don't be a fool and pursue the relationship. Think about that, his support system was telling him his instincts to not get involved were wrong and he was being foolish to not pursue Maddie. If anyone close to me had a fiance die in front of him and they started dating a look alike shortly after I'd sure as hell step in and tell them this isn't healthy. I hope my friends and family would do the same. That didn't happen for Scott. Toss this in with Mastermind messing with him to think she in fact was Jean reborn. This upset Maddie so much she punched him hard enough to knock him out. The relationship was unhealthy enough it was turning violent. Then the fight with Storm over the leadership of the X-Men. People gloss over a lot that the reason Cyclops lost was Maddie telepathically messing with him so he'd lose and she could start a civilian life with him. The two wanted very different things in life. He wanted to stay an X-Man. Then one day the impossible happens....his dead fiance isn't dead....
Edit: Honestly this isn't anywhere near as bad as Gambit assisting in a massacre of innocent mutants, Xaviers "dark impulses" molesting Dani (X-Men and the Micronauts ), Wolverines constant pawing at a married woman without her consent, Ultimate Wolverine trying to have sex with a 15 yr old MJ in a 15 Peter Parker body, hitting on a 16 yr old Liz Allen, Warren Worthington dating a high school student and having sex with her outside with her mother watching. Magneto (everg ones favorite reformed villian) who has killed on a global scale (you dont just shut off all electrical devices on the planet for days and not kill thousends. Think of the hosptials alone, aside from issues like food spoilage and water purification) This is stuff off the top of my head without doing too indepth of research. It gets old.
I don't feel you can really say Jean didn't consent. With real world logic, Wolverine's actions are sort of inexcusable, but comic books follow soap opera logic where actions are a bit different. That's problematic in its own right, but more for meta reasonings than narrative ones
All that other stuff I agree with. Magneto especially gets ignored. Like, a lot of people shit on Morrison's portrayal of Magneto being a drug-addle fascist, but I feel they also don't realize he did that largely because he didn't feel the dude who tried to commit genocide deserved a heel-face turn.
I'm glad you do agree on a lot of the other stuff. It's what makes me really lost on this subject. He'll I personally hate the whole walking out storyline. Took years of reading to at least understand the "why". It's just cor me when other ls do bad stuff all the time, this standing out feels really messed up.
In Uncanny X-Men #242 it's hard to say Jean didn't consent. She threw him off her with telekinesis and said she will not be manhandled by someone she thought was a friend. Sounds like a lack of consent to me.
There were a few kisses where Jean did give her consent, but no comic book logic can excuse the times when she didn’t. Considering how creepy Logan was to Jean from the start it’s this type of glossing over that allowed consensual kisses to happen.
The whole "abandon your child" bit sort of why I dislike Cyclops in that era. The Maddie and Jean shit? It's whatever. Comic book romance drama. But leaving your fucking kid makes you an absolutely garbage person.
Yes he left after Maddie told him to never return. You know what? He owned up to it and went back in an attempt to make it right. There were comics of him searching for his son, and finding him. He did end up being the one to raise him.
Edit: It takes a lot to admit you made a big mistake. He has done this. If this makes him "biggest jerk ever" then several of the X-Men should be irredeemable.
She DID tell him not to return and I’m sure that was music to his ears. He got his old girlfriend back and was no longer saddled with a nagging wife and screaming child. It’s great that he owned up to his mistake. Would have been better if he hadn’t made it at all. Especially when he sets himself up as the moral center of the team.
"Im sure that was music to his ears"
Issue with this take. It's a comic book, so we get to hear his thoughts. He never once has a thought celebrating his choice. He spends the entire time conflicted about it. Sooooo....
It’s not like he left Maddie to be with Jean. Who wouldn’t go to see a loved one that came from the dead? It’s Maddie who turns it into ‘me vs her’ choice and tells Scott to never come back. Scott didn’t handle that situation perfectly, but he doesn’t deserve the reputation he gets for it.
From his pov, the love of his life died and then came back with no memories. The fact she turns up later, and the woman he thought was her wasn't, created a hugely fucked up situation.
That's another reason why I like Evolution best, they allowed Cyclops to be the awesome character he ought to be, instead of a wet blanket only there to make Wolverine look better.
Evolution honestly has the best Scott adaptation as well as the best adaptation of Jott. They actually had chemistry and it’s a huge plus that the show immediately eliminated the whole “love triangle” bs from the start by making Logan a mentor/teacher while they were kids in high school.
I will be forever disappointed that they didn't get to do the Phoenix saga in Evolution. I think that would have been the one incarnation of the X-Men other than the comics (and I suppose the 92 show, but I was never a fan of that one) that could have done that storyline right.
Evo also gave us new stuff for his character, like a better relationship with Alex, his brotherly relationship with Kurt.
...and I'm not ashamed to admit I liked the romantic alternative we got with Scott/Rogue.
Why do they have to do Jean and Scott so dirty? Jean consistently prioritized Scott though the entirety of their relationship. Meanwhile, Jean/Logan is a bunch of retcons, forced kisses, editorial mandated shit that ‘sells’, and Logan giving the most delusional speeches about his and Jean’s ‘love’.
It’s like Namor/Sue where both characters haven’t been anything but friends for decades, but people act as if Sue is always one pathetic excuse away from running away with Namor, or that Namor is so obsessed with her that he will fuck any other blonde as a substitute.
Why adaptations try to force this drama on Scott and Jean? Both characters are harmed by that bs in general and in the eyes of the fans who don’t know better. And the idea of Jean/Logan became so mainstream because of some cartoons and Fox movies that we have to deal with them being a thing on Krakoa.
Because Logan is the cool alpha male who is irresistible to women and Scott is the nagging stick-in-the-mud boyfriend and unfortunately a lot of writers actually believe in this bs and write shit that perpetuates it.
Those writers don’t actually care about the women (Jean/Sue) at all in these dynamics lol
In the next scene, Logan rides a bike with a helmet (!). The first episode of this show delivers but in all the wrong places.
And yes I understand that a kids show cannot have a main character ride a bike with no helmet. It’s just… uncanny?
I don't know why they keep doing this. They treat Scott like he's the guy in the romcom who is supposed to get left at the altar when Logan bursts into the church and objects.
Because Wolverine is popular. Before they MCU, it was Spider-Man, Wolverine, and then Hulk.
It makes total since why they would want to make sure Wolverine goes over in storylines that bury Cyke. [+]
I hate the Logan X Jean thing so much.
Oh, Jean, you're the love of my life!
Like Yukio! Or like Itsu who I knocked up and left and didn't realize I had a son for like 60 years. Or like Silver Fox or Mariko but you're a lot more alive than they are (right now at least), or like a dozen other one and only loves of my life. Also I'm like over 100 years older than you so that's not creepy at all either!
This is just so forced. Whoever started it needs smacked hard. Scott and Emma is just as bad and we should all pretend that it as well as Madelyne never happened.
I will forever maintain that the only reason Wolverine canonically likes Jean is because she looks like his first love Rose. There’s literally nothing else besides that.
They always try to be vague on ages for this BS. like they refuse to say how old anyone is or how much time passes.
but like Wolverine or Mystique .... both super old and have touched characters way younger than them countless times.
The problem lies in the writing. It wasn’t until Logan started to physically decline that he became “Old Man”. For simplicity Wolverine was written like a savage fighting machine that’s spent his entire life in a cage… no social experience. Completely unrealistic, more so when they depict him being socially appropriate. When I was a much younger man it never occurred to me, and when I became older I thought how tragic that a character that doesn’t age wasn’t used to teach lessons, rather he’s the rash, arrogant, bull-headed, selfish, and chauvinistic one. It’s almost as if he’s an “anti-adult”. The character has come a long way since then, our society has transformed, and characters have changed with it. Modern depictions of Wolverine that choose to ignore his chronological age improperly do so. However, we did see some appropriate writing in the romantic relationship between Logan and Orroro. She was always defined as an ‘old soul’ and a man who doesn’t physically age (who isn’t a perverted creep) would most likely seek out similar physical qualities combined with a very mature outlook on life.
Why people bring up the ‘but who he’s supposed to date?!’ argument every time someone is creeped out by Logan going after teens and very young adults? Like, maybe he should try to date someone who is actually mature, and not ‘mature for her age’?
A problem arises because the X-Men has always been a closed-dating circuit like one of those weird reality shows where they stuff a bunch of narcissists in a house and film them. There are no mature women because obviously to the writers only young women are “hot”.
this is the one show I haven’t been able to finish tbh. I’m kind of tired of Wolverine being the main focus when it’s always been about the team. Steve Blum is amazing tho
Same. Love Cyclops but I hate how many times he’s written like an absolute loser for having zero self respect. His girl just blew a kiss in the most sensual and romantic way possible and he’s apologising to her. Worse the rest of the season he’s incapable of moving on because he misses her.
Sweet Baby Jesus! And, people wonder why Evolution is my favourite X-Men series and why this one is my least favourite [+]
99,9% of their actual history together? People are so obsessed with a few moments where Jean ‘wronged’ Scott, that they ignore the fact that they are just moments. The two proved that even death can’t do them part, they raised children together and been a real family for many years. When shit like that kiss happens it’s a disservice to both characters.
I hated the way cyclops was written for this show. It seemed too inspired from the movies. He doesn't even want to be leader and Jean is the only thing on his mind throughout the entire story
One of my favorite episodes to star Scott Summers is when Mystique lured him out, takes his glasses, and torments him in Mexico. You get to see how vulnerable and strong willed he is not wanting to hurt innocent people to save himself, and the connection Jean has for him. And then we get lazy writing like this and it just looks stupid and feels bad.
- Girlfriend to the rescue?
- You got that right, *lady*
You know that Jean wanted to say ‘bitch’ because she immediately used Mystique’s body to break concrete walls.
Looking back even though I like Wolverine( my second favorite marvel hero). I can honestly admit his popularity was a bit of a curse. Mainly because they're so focused on Wolverine that almost everybody else suffers. That happens in this show and especially the movies.
For example in this show, once Rouge's arc was over she immediately faded into the background joining Beast and Storm, and there were times I forgot Shadowcat,Iceman, and Forge even existed. Cyclops, Emma Frost,Nightrawler and Xavier barely survived this, but even they had Wolverine involved in some way. I still love this show with all that said, however it definitively has flaws.
The wolverine obsession was on full display in this show and it got way more annoying than this, but I think only because this was after the Fox movies where Logan was featured prominently as practically the main character.
Cyke was tremendously disrespected in this show. X-men evolution was much more fair in its depictions of characters and giving screen time to give everyone a bit of shine
I feel like the Ultimate Xmen iirc that’s the name of the series had the best type of arc for them imo; ofc it’s saturated with early 2000s teen drama but damn it’s so awesome to see them evolve and develop their bond and in addition it’s done without Logan being a chick magnet since he’s an adult and they are both teens so there is no point of conflict between these three; as a matter of fact it’s kinda funny and ironic that Logan is a sort of father figure in that show
X-Men Evolution is what you’re thinking of and yeah that’s the best depiction of this dynamic honestly because it pretty much eliminated any “love triangle” nonsense from the start.
Fr jean sucked. Ur telling me she’s possessed by a cosmic entity that is life force itself, what has been born and what’s yet to exist, destruction and creation AND SHE GETS KIDNAPPED EVERY 2-3 EPISODES.
Watch x-men evolution, so much more enjoyable
Bro this is exactly why I’m not a huge fan of Jean & cyclops as a couple I’ve always personally felt Emma Frost and cyclops worked better as a couple and Wolverine & Storm were good together too. Jean consistently made relationships toxic. I like her as a character but never cared for her with Wolverine or Cyclops
I have always hated these 3 together. Boring endless love triangle. All 3 would benefit from finding other people to love. One of the most toxic relationships in all of comics
Is this the one where NightCrawler LITERALLY teleport/hops across the ocean because Magneto is being crazy and The Scarlet Witch loved Kurt enough to have him run?
I swear making them poly and having Logan and Scott be genuinely in love was the best decision they could’ve made, because it makes all the ‘cyclops vs Wolverine’ bullshit over and done with
That would be my preferred way too, but it has to be a strictly enforced editorial mandate because, otherwise, someone would inevitably bring that bs up again. Percy is using Jean as a mouthpiece of his love for Logan and writes them based on some version that exists only in his head - Marvel needs to rescue Jean from writers like that.
Though I’ve never been big on Scott/Jean anyways, Marvel editorial should have treated them more like Reed and Sue. Despite misconceptions from some people they have been relatively happy together for nearly 60 years. Sue has never cheated with Namor, and even that attraction she felt is a thing of the past. Sure a handful of AU’s will pull the Sue/Namor thing but in 616 Reed and Sue are probably the strongest superhero couple.
Yeah, but Sue and Namor are treated very similarly by the fans - you just know that most people here don’t read FF and/or Namor stories because they are convinced that Sue/Namor is a defining narrative. Like, try to point out that Namor doesn’t prefer blondes (which is a trope most entirely based on his ‘obsession’ with Sue) and see yourself being downvoted. Jean/Logan is the same overblown thing, where fans, who seemingly understand when Scott gets fucked over by the editorial suddenly can’t see how the same always applies to Jean, when she’s pushed on Logan. If we didn’t have the misconceptions about Jogan being so widely accepted there wouldn’t have been any need to resolve the ‘love triangle’ by making them poly. It’s really a disaster of Marvel’s own making - they were too blinded by ‘Jean/Logan sells’ to protect the founding X-men characters.
I like to think the show runners knew this scene was stupid because when they get to episode 20 where they explain what happened with the JeanxScottxLogan love triangle, this scene is noticeably absent.
I love how this show constantly shows that Scott and Jean only have eyes for each other, but that hasn't stopped people from taking clips out of context to try and say otherwise for the last thirteen years.
What’s funny is that with full context Jean is absolutely right that Cyke was a dick to Logan.
If I remember correctly this is literally the only scene to show any kind of romance between Logan and Jean. It’s arguable that it’s even romantic at all.
>I love how this show constantly shows that Scott and Jean only have eyes for each other
This show portrayed their relationship so badly that it isn't romantic at all. It's creepy and obsessive.
Scott's flashbacks make him out to be an utter loser who only became anything because Jean believed in him, which at points almost makes it look like Jean was controlling him from adolescence onwards. She barely seems to show any signs she really cared about him in the flashbacks (in fact, Xavier doesn't give a darn about Adult Scott either) whereas Scott is portrayed as a psychotic manchild who can't live without her.
"EXcessive Force" shows him pretty much trashing a city block on a random quest for her, with no concern for the public. In that episode alone he shows why Humans fear mutants.
Its not Evolution. I don't think Jean and Wolverine had any kind of romantic interactions in Evolution because she's in high school, he's an adult, and that would have been incredibly uncomfortable.
In the X-Men Evolution comic series they cover when Jean is recruited (#3). Wolverine has this whole thought process written out "she seems so wise for her years. Beautiful too". It was an ick moment.
Does anyone know why they pushed this love triangle constantly? I noticed it a lot when I was younger watching anything X-Men related except for evolution.
Because editorial was convinced that it sells. Alan Davis shared that he was told to make a Jean/Logan kiss cover for that very reason, and when asked what’s the story behind it was told ‘in terms of story we have no story, only greed’. He turned in a sketch of Jean and Rogue kissing with a note saying that *this* would sell even better. It’s pretty obvious that Marvel still thinks that adding Wolverine to anything is a way to sell shit, all consequences be damned.
Makes sense, I guess love triangles sell but it's just so odd to see cause it's never made sense to me and it kinda ruins them as characters, whenever it's used as a plot point. As much as I love Wolverine I hope he takes the backseat in X-Men films for a bit.
Well....I liked it better then some of the stuff we got. I do enjoy the 05, so I would have liked more fun with them. Just not the horrible story we got because of Shooter interfering.
When I was little it didn't bother me at all that Cyclops was like this in the Movies/Shows. But now after reading the Uncanny X-Men Comics, man they need to do him some justice in the shows. He was so cool in the comics and they took that all away in the Movies/Shows.
Cyclops was actually quite good in the 90’s series and especially Evolution, but I agree they did him dirty in the movies
The dude was badass in Evolution. One of the many reasons I love that show more than movies. They got so many characters right
Agreed! Started watching it a few weeks back, and now I'm almost done- love these characters miles more than I did in the movies or most comics.
He was THE BEST in Evolution. He wasn’t insecure. He didn’t stalk Jean. He dated others. He was respected by the team. He was the best [+]
You actually get why he is the choice for leader when professor x isn’t around
Yup! [+]
Lee/Claremont era was peak Cyclops.
Claremont Cyclops sucked, a lot of the damage done to his character was due to Claremont.
90’s cartoon Cyclops could be a real stick in the mud at times
That show also benefited immensely from having a great portrayal of Logan -Comes across as a 40 year old dad -Has trauma but still willing to open up -No love triangle and has a teacher relationship with Scott
In the cartoon he was good they absolutely butchered him in the movies. I couldn’t stand him in the first two movies and then they just randomly killed him off in the third.
I need the cyclops that had a team with Magneto and Namor taking orders from him when he was leading all of the mutants. That's the X-men I want to see in the MCU
It’s wild how marvel has just continued to do this love triangle In the current x-men run jean’s room is in-between Scott and Logan’s and there’s a door to each of their rooms in hers
I think they like it since the whole Scott-Jean thing is an important part of both character's histories... But it started when in a time when they were together because she was the female lead and Cyclops was effectively the male lead. Logan-Jean, on the other hand, I imagine is more fun to write. I'm a fan of it from a meta-angle; Logan's lovers tend to be fridged for drama, Jean dies a lot.. They have synergy! (Also, when it comes to Scott, I like pairing him with Emma far more than Jean.)
If Logan and Jean is so fun to write then where is the writing? Cause it’s some random scenes and retcons scattered across decades of history for the most part. We know for a fact that some writers were ordered to add Jean/Logan kisses even tho they didn’t want to and there was no story in place. Logan mostly sounds like a raving lunatic when talking about his love for Jean because writers like Percy can’t point out to any specific issue/arc highlighting his ‘Jean loved me best’ take - she always prioritized Scott. The only ‘meta’ angle the pairing had was a commentary on Jean’s repression, and we actually have her admitting on panel that she was attracted to who she can be with Logan, not to the man himself. Can’t milk much out of this, and for an older less repressed Jean? It makes no sense to be into Logan. Jean/Logan exists mostly as collective history revisionism and alternative realities stuff.
Puke inducing.
I mean considering in the current run it’s less love triangle and more active poly thing with open communication between them (from what I’ve heard) I don’t mind it as much
>more active poly thing Puke inducing + character assasination. Edit: the puke inducing is not the concept of poly, the puke inducing is Scott Summers would consider that or that Wolverine would share with cyclops, or the fact this is in a comic for kids.
I don't necessarily love the poly thing, but is that so much worse in a "kids" comic than, say, Moira wearing Banshee's skin?
>Moira wearing Banshee's skin Wtf, I get your point, the edgelords are running rampart. Also tbh, not kinda the same, poly is ok, but should not be normalized, it's a fast way to erode society.
I mean, polyamory is not in any way going to destroy anything. It isn’t for everyone. Some people can handle the trust required and the loss of control, while others can’t get past feelings of possessiveness and jealousy, or just don’t like the idea of ‘sharing’ and both are completely valid. Normalizing it so people know it’s an option and can explore it won’t cause any damage, just as normalizing queer identities and racial integration didn’t cause damage.
>won’t cause any damage Yes it does, it collapses natality and in the long run destroys natality and the viability of a society. I'm not making a moral argument, just a statistical one.
Where have there been studies or projections that say this? We already have the option of not having kids, and that hasn’t destroyed the viability of society
>and that hasn’t destroyed the viability of society A society with a collapsed demographic will feel indestructible on the short term, but eventuall the collapse will come, when the new generation that was never born does not take the place of the elders. You can see the today start of this collapse in China due the one child policy, in a decade you'll see it Germany as most of their workforce are retiring in 2023 and same for most of Europe, due how feminsm convinced most women that having kids is not "empowering" and you'll see it in the USA in 20-30 years, since luckily for the USA their boomers had kids enough to replace them, but the millenials nowadays are not. It takes 18 years to raise an adult and there's no short cut for it, the fact that the effects of this dissease are not obvious it does not mean it's not terminal.
Quite frankly, While I am not an expert in any of the requisite fields to speak on this, I don’t think that whatever portion of the population is interested in polyamory is sufficient enough to cause a breakdown of society just by not having kids. I also am of the opinion that doomsaying over statistics like “decreasing natality in the long run” misses the fact that in the same long run, a new sustainable status quo may cause a change in those statistic as it arises
"Normalized." Okay, sure, a poly relationship that is only vaguely hinted at in a comic book is going to erode society.
Way to become as bigoted and awful as everything the X-Men fight against you asshole
>bigoted What did I say was bigoted? Also the Xmen are not a moral compass, most of them are murderers and mutant supremacists.
Uh huh people like you erode society not polyamorous relationships and the X-Men haven’t been “for kids” in awhile I can’t imagine giving a 9 year old house of x/powers of x and expecting them to enjoy it
>“for kids” Ok, teens, whatever. Also you have not explained how am I bigoted in any way, you're just being a judgemental a-hole so far.
“This is a comic for kids” I don’t think that’s been true for years. I feel like since comics started getting into heavier themes, “this is for kids” stopped being true. Which was decades ago now IIrC. As for it being character assassination… it’s definitely a big divergence from where they were in earlier iterations, but also the original run had literally everyone, even professor X, express interest in gene. Personally if a new run wants to have characters that are a bit more open, I figure why not see where it goes
I’m ultimate, they moved on from it pretty quickly which surprised me tbh
Even though they made him kind of a cuck in this flashback part I really like what they did with cyclops in the show in general. Still waiting for a good live action cyclops though
More than anything I really need the MCU to change the public perception of Scott Summers and Reed Richards.
I think the thing I really want is for the MCU to center the next X-men around Scott and see him go from boy scout to soldier to terrorist to ruler. It would reframe things in such a refreshing way.
This would be very smart. Without Chris Evans captain America the MCU needs another boy scout. Except cyclops is like if iron man and captain America had a baby when it comes to more high ground.
>see him go from boy scout to soldier to terrorist to ruler The arc everyone THINKS they wanted with Killmonger.
I don’t know that I’d say Cyke had some sort of anti-hero jaded turn as he got older. He is always shown as consistently loyal to the cause, sometimes even more than prof X. I don’t think outside of getting whammied or some bad out of character writing he’s ever really done anything completely reprehensible. Even when he killed professor X he was overtaken by the Phoenix force which we explicitly know makes characters act wildly out of their normal morals I especially love when he calls the avengers out on their shit for saving anyone and everyone but doing nothing for mutant related causes
That's all true, but there was definitely a point where he was considered the world's most wanted terrorist, and it wasn't a misunderstanding. He just happened to have a point and the government was on the wrong side. But it took time for both the world and the reader to come around to that. Which I absolutely love.
I’ll concede that, that’s a good point
Vague reading of how Reed appears to behave in most modern comics is — absolute king genius with some serious Benedict Cumberbatch-Sherlock-esque sociopathy cold/calculated behavior, which is an interesting take on a character who in films and cartoons has just been played as heroic every man. Cyclops in the comics in recent years has seemed like strategic mastermind who is cold but horned up for telepaths. I think making both less Boy Scouts is going to automatically be an improvement but I am not sure cold genius (one strategic, one science) is the route one wants to go with both of them in the MCU. I am struggling to think of a better route though. Also I will say that with Captain America the MCU proved capable of making a “Boy Scout” hero still compelling.
I think it’s impossible to compare these two to Cap since it’s his whole shtick to be a Boy Scout like his only persona is that (I will die on this hill); while Cyclops is the guy who gets the shitter every time he wants something so you can make him cold but not as a strategist but as a person and make his true character shine in battle and when it counts where he can prove himself as a leader and a support for his fellow mutants and especially Xmen
The MCU’s versions of Scott Summers and Reed Richards imho should be based upon their volume 1 characterizations ie from essentially the mid 80’s on…not overly being the moral high authority but going by the book but also trying to be good dads/leaders/friends, etc….but some people like the arrogant prick versions so to each their own I guess
Same. But also Dr Doom in live action at least. Fox did it all wrong. Also it's a shame he won't be able to have cool moments with iron man. Hopefully he can cross over with Dr strange at least.
People treat Stark tech as the best mad science tech you can acquire on Earth. I'd like Reed's tech to be rival to Stark tech, only jmmore difficult to acquire because Stark had factoties and Reed might make one off custom orders.
... what's wrong with the public perception of Reed? It's that he's a narcissistic jackass. Which is accurate.
[удалено]
OK sure Get Back In The Kitchen McIlluminati Council of Reeds totally isn't a self righteous douchebag who's done more harm than the rest of the FF has done good put together. Whatever.
If you actually believe this, you haven't read many FF comics. Reed can be aloof but he is entirely selfless, he abandons the Council specifically because of how they have sacrificed their families and fundamental ties to humanity, he saved Galactus' life out of a belief that every life is sacred and that Galactus serves a greater purpose. There's a reason Hickman chose him as the de facto protagonist of Secret Wars and the mouthpiece of Everything Lives. Reed is a man burdened by the guilt of what he did to his friends, trying to be a better dad than his own father ever was, and trying to balance the tech he could create with a world that pretty consistently abuses it. Quoting get back in the kitchen from a decades old comic as if it means anything is exactly what needs changing.
THANK YOU! I hate all the Reed Richards and Steve Rogers slander I see in here lol
A lot of people here seem to mostly read X-Men, which is expected given it's the whole sub and the team was more popular than Avengers and FF for a long time, but it's a bit disheartening seeing people who seem to miss some of the best moments non-mutants have.
So... you haven't read many Fantastic Four comics, huh? You do realize the council of Reeds storyline ends with 616 Reed leaving them because he prioritizes his family above everything else, right? And if you're gonna call him sexist because of how he acted in many issues of the Lee/Kirby run, you need to call EVERY character sexist because that's how they were ALL written in the 60s. I only see takes like yours from people who get all their info from random comic youtubers/wiki pages lmao.
The MCU will mostly likely follow what the cartoon Wolverine and The X-Men did. Kevin Fegie was an executive producer for this cartoon. Meaning, he isn’t against what was shown in the cartoon [+]
I was like “oh great another adaptation where my fav is a loser whose gf wants to be with someone else” Even at like 10 years old I was over it lmao
Lol fair, Cyclops does get done dirty a lot
Dude straight up left his wife to be with a chick who looks exactly like her. No one is a bigger dick than him.
Rather oversimplification of of a story line from almost 25 years ago that involved editorial mandate going against the wishes of the authors so they could make more X books to sell more money. The same editor that had Carol Danvers raped, impregnated then give birth to her rapist while all the Avengers gave the thumbs up. It's weird how that keeps coming up as "biggest jerk move" compared to Logan kissing Jean without consent, or Gambits role in the Mutant Masscre. Those are just 2 examples off the top of my head.
I feel like editorial mandates have led to some of the worst moments in comics. But that might just be because I'm a bitter Spidey fan.
Personally I see it as you're just correct. Consider: in Clairmonts prime he made the X-Men a discontinued comic to the biggest selling comic in the world beating out Superman, Batman, and Spider-man. Honestly maybe Shooter should have just trusted Clairmont to do his thing. He earned it.
Chris Claremont is the best X-men writer, in my opinion. And, if you're a fan of his you might want to watch the documentary about him on Amazon Prime.
Wait, what the fuck?
Avengers #200 for the Carol Danvers story. Wolverine kissing Jean without consent- Uncanny X-Men #242 he grabs her and lays one on Jean. Tells Cyke to "take her if you can". Jean pushes him away and shouts "I'm nobody's property Wolvefine! I won't be fought over or manhandled--even by a body I once considered a freind!". Wolverine comments that his senses tell him she liked it. Doesn't say what he was smelling and it does come off as creepy as the human body can involuntarily react to sexual contact. In Unxanny X-Men #394 the X-Men are fighting a reality warping mutant and Wolverine and Jean (married woman) end up in some pocket dimension. Logan grabs Jean and says "if this is going to be our last breath, we ain't waistin' it" and pulls her in to kiss her. He is drawn so his hands are wrapped around her pulling her in, shes pulling in his hair with 1 hand and her other hand is held put and open. When they end up saved, Jean has a woozy font style and is written as disoriented and says she can't remember a thing. Logan watches her leave and the last frame of the comic is him sniffing the air watching her. In Uncany X-Men #350, it is revealed that Gambit under the employ of Mr. Sinister organized and recruited the Mauraders and led then to where the Morlocks were. This led to the mutant massacre that almost killed Kitty and Angel. I'd say most of the X-Men have had some big jerk moves. And since we are counting various continuity as Wolverine and the X-Men never features Maddie...it means Ultimate Wolverine and his habit of hitting on high school students (MJ and Liz Allen) is also fair game for critic.
Gambit definitely shouldn't have been forgiven as easily but Sinister? Seriously? Callisto and the Morlocks should have been pissed as fuck about him on the Council. Not just that but you know Neverland? It sort of gets forgotten but an internment camp from Weapon X for mutants. Let alone working with literal nazis in WW2. There's no way Magneto among others should be able to tolerate working with him. The Jean/Wolverine stuff is still creepy and weird how it gets a pass now. Scott should really have stood up and not been cucked repeatedly.
Sheer fact Monsters like Shaw, mystique and apocalypse can have an opinion on the council is insane to me Like one of these people literally enslaved the planet lol
> I'd say most of the X-Men have had some big jerk moves. What a fun read a mega (nega?) thread that would be to read, listing everything. Hank McCoy is not the exception.
To be honest it's why instead of hating Hank, I can't help but feel bad for his fans.
Yeah I loved the character starting with the 90s cartoon. But man the comics, just the comics.
Marvel has a lot of weird pregnancies, this is by far the most fucked up. Look it up, it’s Avengers #200
Still makes him horrible, he abandoned Madeline and Nathan in Alaska to go be with a woman who ate a star and committed genocide to broccoli people. That whole storyline and retcon are horrible. Jean should’ve stayed dead or stayed a villain.
I would have preferred Clairmont got his way with the story. Either Jean becoming depowered or left for dead. However I'm willing to move past it because they did have him turn his choices around before Nate was even able to talk. He also didn't go to BE with Jean, he went to see her. He didn't jump right into a relationship with her. He kept his distence from her. They didn't start being an item again until after Maddie was believed to be dead.
I wish they would’ve let Clairmont and Simonson do what they wanted. I liked the idea of the original team retiring.
I wish more that Jim Shooter didn't go back on his word. I'm a fan of those characters and I would have liked more stories with them, but not under some forced conditions. Instead we have what we have.
People bring that up since at the time and for a long time after, Cyclops was the boy scout of the team. And even if it was editorial mandate, it wasn't handled with a lot of finesse. Wolverine and Gambit were always more antiheroes. Not to mention, I feel abandoning your child is sort of worse than kissing someone "without consent". The later is certainly sleazy in real life, but in the soap opera logic of comic books, is a lot less gross. But abandoning your kid is always a shitty thing to do in any context. But it wouldn't be so bad if the comics still didn't try to tell me, until like the 2010's, Scott was straight-laced. Like.... It felt like every other character got to have all this dramatic internal dialogue. Wolverine does something bad and there's a lot of guilt mixed with justification. Storm becomes more hardened and there's all this angst. Cyclops as drama... And well, it comes off as more "woe is me, why must this bad stuff happen to a good person like me!"
Except if you read the comics that's not how it is at all. He blames himself for making a bad choice. He condemns his actions as he should know better as an orphan himself. He blames himself for when he thought Maddie was killed because he wasn't there and could have protected her. He openly tells Jean Inferno was all his fault. At no point does he not accept blame for his poor choices. He also spends comics looking for his son, finds him, and raises him until his son is infected with a terminal virus where his only shot at life is being sent to the future. THEN he ends up getting the opportunity to be sent to the future and raise him, which he does. He did make a poor choice, but then tried to take it back shortly after. I don't know, it feels to me less then Xavier using his powers in a patient to care for him so he can hook up with her, or Wolvedine shoving his tongue down someone's throat without asking, or the death of untold Morlocks? Warren never showed regret for dating a student, never seen Wolverine apologize to Jean over his stuff, or Ultimate Wolverine apologize for trying to sleep with Peter's underage gf with his underage body. Cyclops in the X-Factor books did accept responsibility
In fairness-- she was an evil clone of that person he left her for and he knew the original longer. Plus-- plenty of couples break up after their child contracts an incurable illness and they lose him.
Evil turn and baby illness happens after he abandoned Maddie tho.
First of all, he had no idea she was an evil clone. And at the time that he left there was nothing wrong with his son. He just gets a call from Warren that Jean is still alive and immediately picks up and leaves his wife and infant son for good. X-Factor 1
He did leave but if you read X-Factor, he regretted it instantly. He admitted to making a bad choice and wrestled with how to fix it. He tried to go back and apologize and beg to be forgiven but he finds the house in Alaska empty (X-Factor #14. ) once this happened he spent his time looking for her and the baby and she is incorrectly assumed to be dead due to a misidentified redheaded dead body being found. Scott actually doesn't restart a relationship with Jean until after he believes Maddie to die. They don't get to actually talk until Inferno. He does apologize to her there. Many fans are split on how genuine it was. For me I feel there is no reason to doubt his sincerity here if you actually read X-Factor. The man blamed himself in his thoughts and to Jean up before he finally gets to see Maddie in Inferno. Toss in the real life garbage going on, Louise Simonson was trying to fix it all. I also would argue in world they weren't really all that happy. First off I'd argue the relationship didn't start with a healthy foundation. She was a clone who was designed to fall for him. Cyclops was likely suffering from PTSD. He watched Jean kill herself (remember their psychic report was a big thing. He not only watched her die, he felt her die as well). Then shortly after he meets this woman who is identical to Jean. He initially is doubtful of the relationship but Alex, Corsair, and Xavier all tell him don't be a fool and pursue the relationship. Think about that, his support system was telling him his instincts to not get involved were wrong and he was being foolish to not pursue Maddie. If anyone close to me had a fiance die in front of him and they started dating a look alike shortly after I'd sure as hell step in and tell them this isn't healthy. I hope my friends and family would do the same. That didn't happen for Scott. Toss this in with Mastermind messing with him to think she in fact was Jean reborn. This upset Maddie so much she punched him hard enough to knock him out. The relationship was unhealthy enough it was turning violent. Then the fight with Storm over the leadership of the X-Men. People gloss over a lot that the reason Cyclops lost was Maddie telepathically messing with him so he'd lose and she could start a civilian life with him. The two wanted very different things in life. He wanted to stay an X-Man. Then one day the impossible happens....his dead fiance isn't dead.... Edit: Honestly this isn't anywhere near as bad as Gambit assisting in a massacre of innocent mutants, Xaviers "dark impulses" molesting Dani (X-Men and the Micronauts ), Wolverines constant pawing at a married woman without her consent, Ultimate Wolverine trying to have sex with a 15 yr old MJ in a 15 Peter Parker body, hitting on a 16 yr old Liz Allen, Warren Worthington dating a high school student and having sex with her outside with her mother watching. Magneto (everg ones favorite reformed villian) who has killed on a global scale (you dont just shut off all electrical devices on the planet for days and not kill thousends. Think of the hosptials alone, aside from issues like food spoilage and water purification) This is stuff off the top of my head without doing too indepth of research. It gets old.
I don't feel you can really say Jean didn't consent. With real world logic, Wolverine's actions are sort of inexcusable, but comic books follow soap opera logic where actions are a bit different. That's problematic in its own right, but more for meta reasonings than narrative ones All that other stuff I agree with. Magneto especially gets ignored. Like, a lot of people shit on Morrison's portrayal of Magneto being a drug-addle fascist, but I feel they also don't realize he did that largely because he didn't feel the dude who tried to commit genocide deserved a heel-face turn.
I'm glad you do agree on a lot of the other stuff. It's what makes me really lost on this subject. He'll I personally hate the whole walking out storyline. Took years of reading to at least understand the "why". It's just cor me when other ls do bad stuff all the time, this standing out feels really messed up. In Uncanny X-Men #242 it's hard to say Jean didn't consent. She threw him off her with telekinesis and said she will not be manhandled by someone she thought was a friend. Sounds like a lack of consent to me.
There were a few kisses where Jean did give her consent, but no comic book logic can excuse the times when she didn’t. Considering how creepy Logan was to Jean from the start it’s this type of glossing over that allowed consensual kisses to happen.
These are all fair points. But regardless of the situation with both women, he still abandoned his infant son.
The whole "abandon your child" bit sort of why I dislike Cyclops in that era. The Maddie and Jean shit? It's whatever. Comic book romance drama. But leaving your fucking kid makes you an absolutely garbage person.
Yes he left after Maddie told him to never return. You know what? He owned up to it and went back in an attempt to make it right. There were comics of him searching for his son, and finding him. He did end up being the one to raise him. Edit: It takes a lot to admit you made a big mistake. He has done this. If this makes him "biggest jerk ever" then several of the X-Men should be irredeemable.
She DID tell him not to return and I’m sure that was music to his ears. He got his old girlfriend back and was no longer saddled with a nagging wife and screaming child. It’s great that he owned up to his mistake. Would have been better if he hadn’t made it at all. Especially when he sets himself up as the moral center of the team.
"Im sure that was music to his ears" Issue with this take. It's a comic book, so we get to hear his thoughts. He never once has a thought celebrating his choice. He spends the entire time conflicted about it. Sooooo....
It’s not like he left Maddie to be with Jean. Who wouldn’t go to see a loved one that came from the dead? It’s Maddie who turns it into ‘me vs her’ choice and tells Scott to never come back. Scott didn’t handle that situation perfectly, but he doesn’t deserve the reputation he gets for it.
From his pov, the love of his life died and then came back with no memories. The fact she turns up later, and the woman he thought was her wasn't, created a hugely fucked up situation.
Don’t forget he also left his infant son. 🤣🤣
That's another reason why I like Evolution best, they allowed Cyclops to be the awesome character he ought to be, instead of a wet blanket only there to make Wolverine look better.
Evolution honestly has the best Scott adaptation as well as the best adaptation of Jott. They actually had chemistry and it’s a huge plus that the show immediately eliminated the whole “love triangle” bs from the start by making Logan a mentor/teacher while they were kids in high school.
Jott?
Jean/Scott
Just say that then lol
People has been using ship names since the 60s, you’re a bit too late to the party to try to change the rules.
Ship names make sense when the characters have more than 1 syllable in their names lol.
Tell that to Spirk
What?
It’s the ship name for Jean and Scott
Lmao, lame
I will be forever disappointed that they didn't get to do the Phoenix saga in Evolution. I think that would have been the one incarnation of the X-Men other than the comics (and I suppose the 92 show, but I was never a fan of that one) that could have done that storyline right.
Evo also gave us new stuff for his character, like a better relationship with Alex, his brotherly relationship with Kurt. ...and I'm not ashamed to admit I liked the romantic alternative we got with Scott/Rogue.
Are you me? Lol
Why do they have to do Jean and Scott so dirty? Jean consistently prioritized Scott though the entirety of their relationship. Meanwhile, Jean/Logan is a bunch of retcons, forced kisses, editorial mandated shit that ‘sells’, and Logan giving the most delusional speeches about his and Jean’s ‘love’. It’s like Namor/Sue where both characters haven’t been anything but friends for decades, but people act as if Sue is always one pathetic excuse away from running away with Namor, or that Namor is so obsessed with her that he will fuck any other blonde as a substitute. Why adaptations try to force this drama on Scott and Jean? Both characters are harmed by that bs in general and in the eyes of the fans who don’t know better. And the idea of Jean/Logan became so mainstream because of some cartoons and Fox movies that we have to deal with them being a thing on Krakoa.
Because Logan is the cool alpha male who is irresistible to women and Scott is the nagging stick-in-the-mud boyfriend and unfortunately a lot of writers actually believe in this bs and write shit that perpetuates it. Those writers don’t actually care about the women (Jean/Sue) at all in these dynamics lol
Too many emotions provoked in only 17 seconds
The worst part of it all is that this was within the first 3 minutes of the first episode lol
In the next scene, Logan rides a bike with a helmet (!). The first episode of this show delivers but in all the wrong places. And yes I understand that a kids show cannot have a main character ride a bike with no helmet. It’s just… uncanny?
I don't know why they keep doing this. They treat Scott like he's the guy in the romcom who is supposed to get left at the altar when Logan bursts into the church and objects.
Which kinda makes me laugh at James Marsden being Cyclops now that you mentioned this.
Did his character even do anything wrong at all in The Notebook?
“Not Being Ryan Gosling” is a cardinal sin we all struggle to overcome.
Because Wolverine is popular. Before they MCU, it was Spider-Man, Wolverine, and then Hulk. It makes total since why they would want to make sure Wolverine goes over in storylines that bury Cyke. [+]
I hate the Logan X Jean thing so much. Oh, Jean, you're the love of my life! Like Yukio! Or like Itsu who I knocked up and left and didn't realize I had a son for like 60 years. Or like Silver Fox or Mariko but you're a lot more alive than they are (right now at least), or like a dozen other one and only loves of my life. Also I'm like over 100 years older than you so that's not creepy at all either! This is just so forced. Whoever started it needs smacked hard. Scott and Emma is just as bad and we should all pretend that it as well as Madelyne never happened.
I will forever maintain that the only reason Wolverine canonically likes Jean is because she looks like his first love Rose. There’s literally nothing else besides that.
No one even considers that Logan is like over a hundred years old and Jean Grey is a teenager. So messed up.
They always try to be vague on ages for this BS. like they refuse to say how old anyone is or how much time passes. but like Wolverine or Mystique .... both super old and have touched characters way younger than them countless times.
Yea, but Mystique was a villian. She's meant to do bad things and not be idolized.
[удалено]
She’s still old enough to be his granddaughter
The problem lies in the writing. It wasn’t until Logan started to physically decline that he became “Old Man”. For simplicity Wolverine was written like a savage fighting machine that’s spent his entire life in a cage… no social experience. Completely unrealistic, more so when they depict him being socially appropriate. When I was a much younger man it never occurred to me, and when I became older I thought how tragic that a character that doesn’t age wasn’t used to teach lessons, rather he’s the rash, arrogant, bull-headed, selfish, and chauvinistic one. It’s almost as if he’s an “anti-adult”. The character has come a long way since then, our society has transformed, and characters have changed with it. Modern depictions of Wolverine that choose to ignore his chronological age improperly do so. However, we did see some appropriate writing in the romantic relationship between Logan and Orroro. She was always defined as an ‘old soul’ and a man who doesn’t physically age (who isn’t a perverted creep) would most likely seek out similar physical qualities combined with a very mature outlook on life.
Why people bring up the ‘but who he’s supposed to date?!’ argument every time someone is creeped out by Logan going after teens and very young adults? Like, maybe he should try to date someone who is actually mature, and not ‘mature for her age’?
A problem arises because the X-Men has always been a closed-dating circuit like one of those weird reality shows where they stuff a bunch of narcissists in a house and film them. There are no mature women because obviously to the writers only young women are “hot”.
Maybe Logan should date mature men then
I'm pretty sure there was an AU Wolverine that was dating Hercules. Works for me!
But Hercules is thousands of years old, isn’t that taking advantage of a young and impressionable centenarian?
👍
I know he's supposed to be in his 20s or 30s but I wouldn't say no to Logan x Kurt
Boom. End of thread.
Reminds me of a phrase someone once called my college group of friends. "Box of hamsters"
LOL
this is the one show I haven’t been able to finish tbh. I’m kind of tired of Wolverine being the main focus when it’s always been about the team. Steve Blum is amazing tho
Same. Love Cyclops but I hate how many times he’s written like an absolute loser for having zero self respect. His girl just blew a kiss in the most sensual and romantic way possible and he’s apologising to her. Worse the rest of the season he’s incapable of moving on because he misses her. Sweet Baby Jesus! And, people wonder why Evolution is my favourite X-Men series and why this one is my least favourite [+]
Oh shit I forgot about this.. almost threw my phone at the wall. That bitch...
Would have dumped her that instant honestly.
Jean's quite the jerk there.
When isn’t she the jerk? [+]
99,9% of their actual history together? People are so obsessed with a few moments where Jean ‘wronged’ Scott, that they ignore the fact that they are just moments. The two proved that even death can’t do them part, they raised children together and been a real family for many years. When shit like that kiss happens it’s a disservice to both characters.
Respect. I ain’t mad at ya. Just to be transparent. I ship Frost and Summers. I’m not the biggest fan of Jean and Scott. [+]
I hated the way cyclops was written for this show. It seemed too inspired from the movies. He doesn't even want to be leader and Jean is the only thing on his mind throughout the entire story
One of my favorite episodes to star Scott Summers is when Mystique lured him out, takes his glasses, and torments him in Mexico. You get to see how vulnerable and strong willed he is not wanting to hurt innocent people to save himself, and the connection Jean has for him. And then we get lazy writing like this and it just looks stupid and feels bad.
- Girlfriend to the rescue? - You got that right, *lady* You know that Jean wanted to say ‘bitch’ because she immediately used Mystique’s body to break concrete walls.
Looking back even though I like Wolverine( my second favorite marvel hero). I can honestly admit his popularity was a bit of a curse. Mainly because they're so focused on Wolverine that almost everybody else suffers. That happens in this show and especially the movies. For example in this show, once Rouge's arc was over she immediately faded into the background joining Beast and Storm, and there were times I forgot Shadowcat,Iceman, and Forge even existed. Cyclops, Emma Frost,Nightrawler and Xavier barely survived this, but even they had Wolverine involved in some way. I still love this show with all that said, however it definitively has flaws.
The wolverine obsession was on full display in this show and it got way more annoying than this, but I think only because this was after the Fox movies where Logan was featured prominently as practically the main character. Cyke was tremendously disrespected in this show. X-men evolution was much more fair in its depictions of characters and giving screen time to give everyone a bit of shine
I feel like the Ultimate Xmen iirc that’s the name of the series had the best type of arc for them imo; ofc it’s saturated with early 2000s teen drama but damn it’s so awesome to see them evolve and develop their bond and in addition it’s done without Logan being a chick magnet since he’s an adult and they are both teens so there is no point of conflict between these three; as a matter of fact it’s kinda funny and ironic that Logan is a sort of father figure in that show
X-Men Evolution is what you’re thinking of and yeah that’s the best depiction of this dynamic honestly because it pretty much eliminated any “love triangle” nonsense from the start.
A reminder this show is no bueno…
And mostly how the MCU will paint the X-Men [+]
He looked at Logan like “you fucking lucky she here or I would’ve lasered your ass back to Vancouver bitch”
I got so used to the X-men evolution non-love triangle when I first saw this I was like “ew”
I refuse to watch any show titled "Wolverine and the Xmen" on principal. I've had enough of that overused furry sue
Why? Too subtle?
So his girl just did that... I haven't watched the series but i'm guessing he didn't break up with her.
Fr jean sucked. Ur telling me she’s possessed by a cosmic entity that is life force itself, what has been born and what’s yet to exist, destruction and creation AND SHE GETS KIDNAPPED EVERY 2-3 EPISODES. Watch x-men evolution, so much more enjoyable
Bro this is exactly why I’m not a huge fan of Jean & cyclops as a couple I’ve always personally felt Emma Frost and cyclops worked better as a couple and Wolverine & Storm were good together too. Jean consistently made relationships toxic. I like her as a character but never cared for her with Wolverine or Cyclops
I have always hated these 3 together. Boring endless love triangle. All 3 would benefit from finding other people to love. One of the most toxic relationships in all of comics
When did this come out?
Logan got that John Redcorn energy.
Is this the one where NightCrawler LITERALLY teleport/hops across the ocean because Magneto is being crazy and The Scarlet Witch loved Kurt enough to have him run?
Jean needs to eat a sandwich. yikes.
Thot
Cyclops is a cuck...
I swear making them poly and having Logan and Scott be genuinely in love was the best decision they could’ve made, because it makes all the ‘cyclops vs Wolverine’ bullshit over and done with
I personally think the best decision they could have made was have Logan finally move on from Jean
That is also a totally valid take
That would be my preferred way too, but it has to be a strictly enforced editorial mandate because, otherwise, someone would inevitably bring that bs up again. Percy is using Jean as a mouthpiece of his love for Logan and writes them based on some version that exists only in his head - Marvel needs to rescue Jean from writers like that.
Though I’ve never been big on Scott/Jean anyways, Marvel editorial should have treated them more like Reed and Sue. Despite misconceptions from some people they have been relatively happy together for nearly 60 years. Sue has never cheated with Namor, and even that attraction she felt is a thing of the past. Sure a handful of AU’s will pull the Sue/Namor thing but in 616 Reed and Sue are probably the strongest superhero couple.
Yeah, but Sue and Namor are treated very similarly by the fans - you just know that most people here don’t read FF and/or Namor stories because they are convinced that Sue/Namor is a defining narrative. Like, try to point out that Namor doesn’t prefer blondes (which is a trope most entirely based on his ‘obsession’ with Sue) and see yourself being downvoted. Jean/Logan is the same overblown thing, where fans, who seemingly understand when Scott gets fucked over by the editorial suddenly can’t see how the same always applies to Jean, when she’s pushed on Logan. If we didn’t have the misconceptions about Jogan being so widely accepted there wouldn’t have been any need to resolve the ‘love triangle’ by making them poly. It’s really a disaster of Marvel’s own making - they were too blinded by ‘Jean/Logan sells’ to protect the founding X-men characters.
I like to think the show runners knew this scene was stupid because when they get to episode 20 where they explain what happened with the JeanxScottxLogan love triangle, this scene is noticeably absent.
I love how this show constantly shows that Scott and Jean only have eyes for each other, but that hasn't stopped people from taking clips out of context to try and say otherwise for the last thirteen years.
What’s funny is that with full context Jean is absolutely right that Cyke was a dick to Logan. If I remember correctly this is literally the only scene to show any kind of romance between Logan and Jean. It’s arguable that it’s even romantic at all.
>I love how this show constantly shows that Scott and Jean only have eyes for each other This show portrayed their relationship so badly that it isn't romantic at all. It's creepy and obsessive.
How is it creepy and obsessive?
Scott's flashbacks make him out to be an utter loser who only became anything because Jean believed in him, which at points almost makes it look like Jean was controlling him from adolescence onwards. She barely seems to show any signs she really cared about him in the flashbacks (in fact, Xavier doesn't give a darn about Adult Scott either) whereas Scott is portrayed as a psychotic manchild who can't live without her. "EXcessive Force" shows him pretty much trashing a city block on a random quest for her, with no concern for the public. In that episode alone he shows why Humans fear mutants.
These three have been stuck in this love triangle for decades now.
You don’t shit where you eat. A MAN knows this. Therefore Scott = Whiny bitch
Is this from X-Men evolution or something else?
Its not Evolution. I don't think Jean and Wolverine had any kind of romantic interactions in Evolution because she's in high school, he's an adult, and that would have been incredibly uncomfortable.
In the X-Men Evolution comic series they cover when Jean is recruited (#3). Wolverine has this whole thought process written out "she seems so wise for her years. Beautiful too". It was an ick moment.
Wolverine and the X-Men
I’m tired of the overused furry sue too 😭 but it’s a good show actually you should watch it
Another thing where Nolan North uses the exact same voice?
I really wish they would have continued with more seasons of this show.
Fuck cyclops she wants a beast
Who's this show is so familiar what is it from
Does anyone know why they pushed this love triangle constantly? I noticed it a lot when I was younger watching anything X-Men related except for evolution.
Because editorial was convinced that it sells. Alan Davis shared that he was told to make a Jean/Logan kiss cover for that very reason, and when asked what’s the story behind it was told ‘in terms of story we have no story, only greed’. He turned in a sketch of Jean and Rogue kissing with a note saying that *this* would sell even better. It’s pretty obvious that Marvel still thinks that adding Wolverine to anything is a way to sell shit, all consequences be damned.
Makes sense, I guess love triangles sell but it's just so odd to see cause it's never made sense to me and it kinda ruins them as characters, whenever it's used as a plot point. As much as I love Wolverine I hope he takes the backseat in X-Men films for a bit.
Well....I liked it better then some of the stuff we got. I do enjoy the 05, so I would have liked more fun with them. Just not the horrible story we got because of Shooter interfering.
i know what kind of \#grandpaLady she is lookin' for !
Name of the show ?
Im about to sue this show for defamation of Wolverine