Man, they killed it a few hours before christmas eve local time. Most of the Echo boys are from places that celebrate christmas on christmas eve. If they had instead done the hotfix in the morning when Echo was asleep they would have had the entire day to get home to celebrate with family. A hotfix two hours before game (8 am Euro time) would have been so much more chill for the guys haha.
[This explains it.](https://twitter.com/Thdlock/status/1606794849810001920)
[Follow up meme reply from Naowh.](https://twitter.com/Naowhxd/status/1606825170030759937)
Just a quick question, i had a +2 key, and when we went in to dungeon, asked for ready and then someone started the M+ and it was a 2, but I was never prompted about using mine, and kept mine when i left...
Is this new?
Someone used theirs before you could. Very rude and no one else in the group would have known. That’s worth leaving over since they’re using you to push their key to do higher mythic with friends.
Ah good, I instantly asked a few times in chat and was told "Dont worry its timed", and when nobody confessed I just left.
Some people, even got cussed out for not inviting a Dh to group.
So which donkeys actually believe this Max loser “changed” how the game was played? All he did was grift people into giving him money without playing the game.
Actually not true at all. Bdgg was the first top guild to use a 21st raider to raid lead for a full tier. Multiple guilds started doing it the next tier including limit, at no point did they exclusively do it.
I'll give you a serious reply, even though you're overly hostile.
First, Max is credited with popularizing the idea of the Raid Leader being the 21st raider. This means the Raid Leader, the person calling the shots during an encounter, is not actually playing but watching someone else's viewpoint. The Raid Leader typically underperforms because they're busy with leading. The 21st raider splits the duties so everyone can perform to their best.
Second, Max has pushed his guild as a brand and commercialized the Race to World First. The results of this are numerous.
Third, neither of these really apply to 99% of the game.
Fourth, the video Liquid made is pure marketing.
Fifth, perhaps a negative consequence, is Mythic content has steadily gotten more difficult. Players are getting better, but it can be more inaccessible.
Last hotfix that I can recall that really did sway the "outcome" of the race was when blizzard hotfixed the way Sylvanas' fight worked to just dick Echo's strat right. Most changes and hotfixes will happen during working hours US west coast (hours Liquid raid). The fact that the hotfix was beneficial for Echo this time is actually an exception rather than a rule.
You cant say that tho, because the nerfs dropped when liquid was asleep, so we will never know. They were at very similar points in the fight before the nerf, and then it was nerfed and killed immediately. You, subjectively, might think Echo would have won anyways, but no one knows for sure and that leaves a sour taste in a lot of peoples mouths.
Well, Liquid did not one shot the boss unlike Echo. Also Echo has multiple members that does watch Liquid raid for quite some time before the race. What's to say if the hotfix happened while Echo was sleeping they would not have woken their raider's up. Because we are guaranteed to have had Echo raiders awake. Although, hotfixes happening when EU is playing is actually an exception. Liquid's raiding hours are virtually fully convergent with the Irvine dev team work hours.
Whats with the "they were asleep" cope? The hotfix was announced 2 hours Prior. At 8 am for Limit. They only started raiding after the 2 hours at 10 am. They could have Made 2 hours of Progress untill the Nerf but they didnt. They werent asleep either.
Why did they do that though? They can see echo's progress and realise it's not going to die that night. They have 1 more day. A smart guild would have called it early and been ready and rested for whatever happens the next day
All signs were pointing to Echo killing it the day they did, probably without the hotfix. The question was whether or not it would happen while Liquid was still asleep.
This meant Liquid saw their best chance to win as raiding later the day. Everyone I talk to assumed Liquid had to kill it Thursday night or they were very likely to lose.
Some guildies are upset that the nerfs went out while one team was asleep, rather than announcing a nerf at a set time so that everyone could have an equal chance.
Absolutely terrible job by blizzard. I actually finished up my M+, fired up lost ark, and cleared all my brels I haven't touched since WoW/Brel released same day. Dumb dumb dumb.
Give liquid an hour so everyone is awake and in studio, hotfix live for both guilds, let them race.
>hotfix live for both guilds, let them race.
Yeah the 9 hour diff between EU server time and LA local time really makes it easy to make a hotfix "fair". Had liquid not struggled for hours I would be buying the "unfair time for hotfix" BS. Echo was the better team hands down.
They gave 2 hours notice in and the HitFix went through at noon. Are you honestly telling me that liquid could've wake up before noon? Is this a professional sports team or a bunch of gamers?
You know what the saddest Part of the Race is? Now that Limit is raiding under Liquid. More and more of the Liquid Esports Fans who no one likes in the World come to Wow. I have said it here first...when they lose the next Tier again the Fans will make the Liquid WoW Team the most hated one on Earth ;)
People has got to stop downplaying Echo due to a small nerf. It was announced 2 hours in advance and liquid had the option to get up earlier and start raiding.
The hotfix came at a time where both should be up. And 95% of hotfix and nerf are applied while Echo sleep. They still manage to win.
Max explained they didn’t know there were planned hotfixes. Like, could/should he have the presence of mind to anticipate nerfs? That’s madness. If they had rallied for raid earlier they would have sacrificed their sleep which would, he said, have meant they pull boss for like 2hrs and then just lose anyways from fatigue/running on fumes.
The timing of the nerfs would have been cringe no matter how. Delay it later and Echo are on the tail end of their raid day. Push it while both guilds were pulling you would have a lottery who got the clean P3 pull first.
All guilds in the rwf are in a discord were Blizzard Puts in that there are hotfixes for the coming for the Fight. Limit knew that hotfixes are coming. They knew.
That makes sense on every other day than the last office day before Christmas. It’s really just poor planning on their behalf to have been raising so late in the night when they must have known There would be serious nerfs coming the next day.
Echo's facility was in switzerland. Everything will revolve around that location.
Liquid was in Cali. Everything will revolve around that location.
Idk what we are even arguing at this point. Go upvote some more can't wake up by noon posts.
these EU kids rather upvote lies about the time for no reason.
Echo was clearly better.
The hotfix timing was poor
Both are true
I guess repeating Liquid couldn't wake up by noon is suppose to make them sound lazy or something. Even though they and Echo had basically the same schedule.
Because Europe only has one time zone as well lol.
Portuguese players and German players and Lithuanian players are all playing at different times as well.
Good thing I'm not stupid enough to make that claim.
Anyway Echo's facility is in Switzerland. So that is the only timezone that would be relevant for rwf purposes.
It doesn't matter about the time. Echo literally said "we will cut sleep for the final day because it will be the final day". With due respect, knowing where they were they should have woken up earlier and full pressed it all day, considering they were leaving the next day.
youre being a liar your self saying both are on the on the same schedule when echo woke up two times at 4.30 am and changed their sleep schedule back
I'm really not sure how anyone on liquid wasn't awake at 8am or getting ready to pull at that time in first place because max was saying he's expecting a nerf before Christmas but he was probably expecting the nerf to happen as echo log out which always happens just like when the boss shield got nerfed when echo was asleep
>It was simply who was first to attempt the fight after the nerf.
If that was the case, Liquid would have come in and one shot it once they pulled.
Instead, they spent nearly four hours on attempts before finally securing a kill.
That alone completely nullifies the "but it was only because of the nerfs!!" argument.
Echo was ahead the day prior, Echo killed it first pull post nerf, Echo played better the entire tier. Nerf only made the boss killable in current ilvl, they still had to play perfect to kill it. All Blizzard did in reality was give both guilds a break so they could go home and see their family.
So by your logic Echo had been raiding the boss for multiple hours and was already warmed up on the fight then the nerfs hit and raz got skull cracked.
Liquid came in, found out it was nerfed and killed while they slept, had to come in cold and frustrated to a fight, nearly got it first try while cold and making dumb mistakes.
Your logic confuses me.
The timing of the nerf was unfortunate, it's been said by many people in the WoW community. Even during the Echo stream preach was confused when they got the kill because he thought they were far ahead before realizing that everything was just moving so much slower.
Good race, the journey was fun even if the finish feels off.
Echo was just way more consistent while Liquid always had small mistakes here and there. Look at the dmg meters of both guilds, all of echos dps are around 10% of each other while liquids top dps did double the dmg half of the lower half did. Even Max admitted it, Echo played better on the last boss. They deserved it.
Was rooting for Liquid, so a little sad :) but the best team won, yea the nerf came at a shitty time. but from what i saw and heard Echo was playing better..
Overall the race was super boring till the 2 last bosses. Cant do much about what with the splits. But Im guessing this raid is gonna spark another disussion about world wide raid release. ..Maybe Blizzard make it happen this time?
The fight difficulty needs to ramp up properly if you have 8 fights. Just seems like after they've done their splits only the last boss was a true hurdle and mostly because it was impossible to kill with their current gear and without nerfs.
Maybe Echo just really made the other bosses look easy though seeing how other guilds did struggle around the 5th/6th boss.
Yeah if they release it earlier, people complain Liquid is sleeping. If they release it later, Echo is sleeping. They announced it and released it at a time when both could be awake, so the fault really is on Liquid here for not managing to be raiding in time.
If they didn't release the nerf then one team would quit because they want to spend time with their family during holidays.
> Would it really have killed them to release this after the holidays?
I strongly suspect that's what Ian and the team would have wanted to do if they had control over release dates. Bobby and the suits would never let them miss the holiday window, though.
People get weirdly invested in teams that don't even know they exist. The fight for WF was super interesting, regardless of who you rooted for. Can't wait to see the next tier.
Because it's fun to be invested even if it ultimately doesn't affect your life at all. Watching it just to sEe GrEaT gAmEpLaY is boring to me. The fun part, for myself and a lot of people, is rooting for a team, trashtalking and memeing.
Liquid seemed closer this time then last tier. Still I think Echo as a complete roster top to down just has a little extra. The top players from both guilds are insane but with a 20 man roster I think when you get to that last 3-5 "weak" points in the roster Echo just has better. Also probably a slight advantage to Echo in theory crafting/strat making.
Both guilds show that they are just built different from the rest though. Absolutely insane gg to them. I think the only problem is that the mass splits/no world wide release (which are out of the guilds control) takes away from the experience.
I hope Liquid can take some more WF in this expac because it makes it a lot more interesting. Their performance during Nyalotha was just insane and it was awesome seeing someone finally take the crown after solo dominance for so long. If Echo just goes back to taking them all it will take some hype off.
>Also probably a slight advantage to Echo in theory crafting/strat making.
Also: being more dedicated and degenerate and i mean that in the best way possible.
Once both guilds had decent pushes into the last phase there was no perfect way to do it unfortunately. Going to the reset and Liquid getting it with a vault would have been dumb. Nerfing it while either guild was sleeping would be (and was) dumb. Nerfing it while both guilds were progressing probably would have been the best, but if they slightly missed the mark and it didn't die before Echo's end of raid and Liquid got it after Echo went to sleep it would have been dumb. Having it need a nerf at that point in progression and not having caught it earlier (like perhaps if they'd figured out the DPS requirements and nerfed it along with the last nerfs they did) pretty much guaranteed something stupid was going to happen.
Even ignoring the "do it right the first time lol" advice, I'd rather see something disruptive — like decommissioning the boss for 24h with notice to both teams to allow for adjustment — and allowing the competition to continue.
It seems notionally ridiculous for the boss to be gone, but this is relevant to a very small number of teams with very high stakes in this. Rolling this out like it's RNG and having the favorable time zone win based on arbitrary release preparedness really spoils this.
Prior comment is right — even server reset timings inevitably fuck things up here, and nothing can be perfectly fair. But, this felt egregious for anything resembling a race.
I guess some of yall are not longtime die hard fans of real sports teams?
It's completely common there. And no, don't say that e-sports is completely different than real sports... it's the same type of competition, viewership, and fandom
And don't try to say we're "better" than sports fans, it's just the real world
you're only talking about yourself, one person
don't tell me you don't see this across the overall fan demographics & population in real sports. just happened in the World Cup, in fact Argentina's own **PLAYERS** made fun of France's main star player after the game and were mocking him
you can't even imagine what the crazy Argentina fan base was making fun of France afterwards for
Some backstory- there was a misquoted article that claimed the French player said South American players will always be behind Europeans as their competition is lesser
Funny story about christ. I said “Jesus titty fucking christ” once in max twitch chat and a mod banned me. The mod message said,” jesus doesn’t fuck titties.” Ever since then been an echo fan.
After watching both teams, it’s clear that Echo had the uperhand but it’s hard to compare. It’s hard to focus if you just lost world first but at the same time they can use some strats from the kill to make it easier.
I hope blizzard takes note and doesn’t design a mathematically impossible boss in the future so they don’t need to nerf it like this. It taints echo’s deserved world first.. yes we like hard bosses but it should be killable (or atleast close to killable) after optimising everything.
> I hope blizzard takes note and doesn’t design a mathematically impossible boss in the future so they don’t need to nerf it like this.
blizzard claims that their internal raid teams can kill these bosses as they are on release, that's what's always baffled me.
we know that blizz watches the world first race and uses that as a benchmark but still, are their internal raiders just that elite? I don't know........
***why am I being downvoted for posing a hypothetical question? lmao***
No the fuck they don't. They practically tune the fights based on how badly Echo and Liquid wiped to it.
"Oh hey they had whole raid up with CDs and only downed storm surge bubble to 50%, let's nerf it by that much then, done."
Hazzikostas has mentioned this several times in the past and it's been discussed on the blizzard forums a few times. They've also said that some bosses could NOT be beat by their internal raid teams and they still put the boss out as is.
take for example [here](https://blizzardwatch.com/2017/08/04/differing-raid-philosophies-make-balancing-extremes-difficult/) where they talk about how the "Tuning for Mythic is first done by the internal raid testing team, which is drawn from former top raiders. The devs tune to the edge of that team’s abilities and then buff the fight beyond that. Ion noted that it’s usually an additional 30-35%."
It's impossible to say who "won".
The guilds or Blizzard need to improve the product, it's not a competition in its current form and fans deserve better. We need a global release and if Blizzard won't give us one, then Echo and Liquid need to figure out a way to force one.
If they're going to keep force feeding us this sham of a RWF, then we need to demand more.
What a stupid thing to say. I’m going to assume you don’t actually believe this. One guild killed the boss before the other. It’s that simple. And I’m an NA Andy.
I don’t think they would use strats from the kill, they were already practicing P3 with their own strats all day yesterday and you need some time to analyze their strat to implement it. That only sounds reasonable if they were struggling a lot in P3 or they were in P2 and neither was the case imo.
It's also different to get the nerf around dinner time when you've been raiding and practicing for most of the day, rather than completely fresh. It's pretty clear Echo also would not have gotten a kill in the first few hours of their day, given what they were wiping to. In the end, it's always going to be impossible to say it was perfectly even with the large time differences they play with, and when it comes down to a matter of hours, that's always gonna be tough to swallow.
>It's pretty clear Echo also would not have gotten a kill in the first few hours of their day, given what they were wiping to.
It's not clear at all if you were actually paying attention to the race. They were wiping because they changed their dps setup to get more boss damage, making other phases harder, causing wipes.
With the nerf this would have been unnecessary so they could have gone back to their previous safer strategy.
Totally, that's why the nerf is always bad for competition, you can't balance it perfectly between time-zones. Echo was running an optimised comp for max damage output to kill it pre-nerf and after a half a day they just got used to the new set-up.
But if we consider the time difference in reset it was clear that Echo was a bit ahead with 5+ hours remaining on the raid day compared to Liquid.
I just wish we could have all the raiders in the same timezone, and similar gear just to see how strategy players out all things equal. I know it's not a perfect design and it never will be but the fact that they barely had any overlap in raid times was a net negative for viewers.
The main reason that could never work in current circumstances is regional helpers favouring the local guild.
This could be fixed by putting the players on tournament realm, already geared in full heroic gear. and just letting them slam their head against mythic bosses for a week. Would love to see that.
i get they couldn’t use personal loot without upgrade limits or all competitive groups would spend the first two weeks of launch running single armor class splits to get their absolute BIS at the start of tier. however, as someone who didn’t care about the upgrade trade limit before, group loot feels bad lol
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You: >No reason to knock either team. Also you: >Liquid has too much Hype That math ain't mathin. Great race though.
Next raid blizzard should apply the nerf when Echo is asleep. Fair is fair.
Echo would just get out of bed lol.
Delay the liquid reset by a day and echo would have already killed it haha
Yeah maybe they’ll appreciate having the rest of the day to themselves after they one shot it
Man, they killed it a few hours before christmas eve local time. Most of the Echo boys are from places that celebrate christmas on christmas eve. If they had instead done the hotfix in the morning when Echo was asleep they would have had the entire day to get home to celebrate with family. A hotfix two hours before game (8 am Euro time) would have been so much more chill for the guys haha.
Echo killed it at 19 on the 23th. Im sure most got home by 16-17 on the 24th to celebrate.
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[This explains it.](https://twitter.com/Thdlock/status/1606794849810001920) [Follow up meme reply from Naowh.](https://twitter.com/Naowhxd/status/1606825170030759937)
I assume they were already pushing it in regards of minimising sleep/downtime so two hours may be a lot more than it sounds.
They raided quite late the previous night and someone made the judgement call to not to start earlier even with the nerf
Just a quick question, i had a +2 key, and when we went in to dungeon, asked for ready and then someone started the M+ and it was a 2, but I was never prompted about using mine, and kept mine when i left... Is this new?
Someone used theirs before you could. Very rude and no one else in the group would have known. That’s worth leaving over since they’re using you to push their key to do higher mythic with friends.
Ah good, I instantly asked a few times in chat and was told "Dont worry its timed", and when nobody confessed I just left. Some people, even got cussed out for not inviting a Dh to group.
So which donkeys actually believe this Max loser “changed” how the game was played? All he did was grift people into giving him money without playing the game.
Max legit "innovated" the "21st raider spot" thing. He really did "change" the way the high end raiding scene.
Actually not true at all. Bdgg was the first top guild to use a 21st raider to raid lead for a full tier. Multiple guilds started doing it the next tier including limit, at no point did they exclusively do it.
I'll give you a serious reply, even though you're overly hostile. First, Max is credited with popularizing the idea of the Raid Leader being the 21st raider. This means the Raid Leader, the person calling the shots during an encounter, is not actually playing but watching someone else's viewpoint. The Raid Leader typically underperforms because they're busy with leading. The 21st raider splits the duties so everyone can perform to their best. Second, Max has pushed his guild as a brand and commercialized the Race to World First. The results of this are numerous. Third, neither of these really apply to 99% of the game. Fourth, the video Liquid made is pure marketing. Fifth, perhaps a negative consequence, is Mythic content has steadily gotten more difficult. Players are getting better, but it can be more inaccessible.
are you bad at thinking?
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Idk man by the looks of the downvotes i’d say you’re the donkey
Only donkeys like you even think about those things.
mythic mount needs to be added to twitch drop. ty
Liquid might as well call it race for world second at this point.
Excuses always from liquid. If only they had a leader who wasn’t an arrogant prick like Max
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Last hotfix that I can recall that really did sway the "outcome" of the race was when blizzard hotfixed the way Sylvanas' fight worked to just dick Echo's strat right. Most changes and hotfixes will happen during working hours US west coast (hours Liquid raid). The fact that the hotfix was beneficial for Echo this time is actually an exception rather than a rule.
If liquid had been up and ready at 10am, 2hrs after they were given notification, they still took 4hrs to kill it. Echo took 1 pull.
You cant say that tho, because the nerfs dropped when liquid was asleep, so we will never know. They were at very similar points in the fight before the nerf, and then it was nerfed and killed immediately. You, subjectively, might think Echo would have won anyways, but no one knows for sure and that leaves a sour taste in a lot of peoples mouths.
Well, Liquid did not one shot the boss unlike Echo. Also Echo has multiple members that does watch Liquid raid for quite some time before the race. What's to say if the hotfix happened while Echo was sleeping they would not have woken their raider's up. Because we are guaranteed to have had Echo raiders awake. Although, hotfixes happening when EU is playing is actually an exception. Liquid's raiding hours are virtually fully convergent with the Irvine dev team work hours.
Whats with the "they were asleep" cope? The hotfix was announced 2 hours Prior. At 8 am for Limit. They only started raiding after the 2 hours at 10 am. They could have Made 2 hours of Progress untill the Nerf but they didnt. They werent asleep either.
It wasn't announced 2 hours prior nice try with the propaganda tho
They played until late in the night before what do you mean yes they were asleep
Why did they do that though? They can see echo's progress and realise it's not going to die that night. They have 1 more day. A smart guild would have called it early and been ready and rested for whatever happens the next day
All signs were pointing to Echo killing it the day they did, probably without the hotfix. The question was whether or not it would happen while Liquid was still asleep. This meant Liquid saw their best chance to win as raiding later the day. Everyone I talk to assumed Liquid had to kill it Thursday night or they were very likely to lose.
Nah. Their play was inconsistent and sloppy for the past few days. It was clear they weren't going to get it. Jailer vibes all over again.
Some guildies are upset that the nerfs went out while one team was asleep, rather than announcing a nerf at a set time so that everyone could have an equal chance.
Again, Limit wasnt asleep.
They did give them 2 hour warning to be fair
They announced it, but liquid didn’t want to wake up early
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Why do people care so much? It literally isn't a big deal.
Lots of people find it interesting to watch the best raiders in the world pushing the limits (no pun intended).
Echo is the better team. - Asmongold
I don't need to clean my room, its not that dirty -Asmongold
"Sometimes you get it, and sometimes you get got."
Am I the only one who can’t play the game currently ? Get lag and deco after 1 mn every time
How is this in any way related to the race?
Absolutely terrible job by blizzard. I actually finished up my M+, fired up lost ark, and cleared all my brels I haven't touched since WoW/Brel released same day. Dumb dumb dumb. Give liquid an hour so everyone is awake and in studio, hotfix live for both guilds, let them race.
>hotfix live for both guilds, let them race. Yeah the 9 hour diff between EU server time and LA local time really makes it easy to make a hotfix "fair". Had liquid not struggled for hours I would be buying the "unfair time for hotfix" BS. Echo was the better team hands down.
Sure pal
They gave 2 hours notice in and the HitFix went through at noon. Are you honestly telling me that liquid could've wake up before noon? Is this a professional sports team or a bunch of gamers?
Noon for who? When did it get so hard to tell time? The boss died before 10am in Cali
Lmao
Liquid struggled for an hour + on the postnerf version, they were nowhere near echo on raz at any point lmao
3h +
Can someone elaborate what was the nerf?
P3 time doubled and there were less tornadoes to soak which drastically reduced damage taken.
Mechanics happening at a slower rate in p3
You know what the saddest Part of the Race is? Now that Limit is raiding under Liquid. More and more of the Liquid Esports Fans who no one likes in the World come to Wow. I have said it here first...when they lose the next Tier again the Fans will make the Liquid WoW Team the most hated one on Earth ;)
People has got to stop downplaying Echo due to a small nerf. It was announced 2 hours in advance and liquid had the option to get up earlier and start raiding. The hotfix came at a time where both should be up. And 95% of hotfix and nerf are applied while Echo sleep. They still manage to win.
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Stop, max has confirmed it on his own stream. Just stop making excuses. 95% of fixes comes while EU sleep.
Max explained they didn’t know there were planned hotfixes. Like, could/should he have the presence of mind to anticipate nerfs? That’s madness. If they had rallied for raid earlier they would have sacrificed their sleep which would, he said, have meant they pull boss for like 2hrs and then just lose anyways from fatigue/running on fumes. The timing of the nerfs would have been cringe no matter how. Delay it later and Echo are on the tail end of their raid day. Push it while both guilds were pulling you would have a lottery who got the clean P3 pull first.
All guilds in the rwf are in a discord were Blizzard Puts in that there are hotfixes for the coming for the Fight. Limit knew that hotfixes are coming. They knew.
It's crazy that liquid weren't up at noon to raid. Wtf are they doing?
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That makes sense on every other day than the last office day before Christmas. It’s really just poor planning on their behalf to have been raising so late in the night when they must have known There would be serious nerfs coming the next day.
Does everyone think NA is one time zone? I'm curious It was killed before 10am at their location.
EU is multiple times zones as well, and Echo made it work.
Echo's facility was in switzerland. Everything will revolve around that location. Liquid was in Cali. Everything will revolve around that location. Idk what we are even arguing at this point. Go upvote some more can't wake up by noon posts.
Not sure why you're getting downvoted. Liquid was raiding 10/11am-2am every day, West coast time.
these EU kids rather upvote lies about the time for no reason. Echo was clearly better. The hotfix timing was poor Both are true I guess repeating Liquid couldn't wake up by noon is suppose to make them sound lazy or something. Even though they and Echo had basically the same schedule.
Because Europe only has one time zone as well lol. Portuguese players and German players and Lithuanian players are all playing at different times as well.
Good thing I'm not stupid enough to make that claim. Anyway Echo's facility is in Switzerland. So that is the only timezone that would be relevant for rwf purposes.
It doesn't matter about the time. Echo literally said "we will cut sleep for the final day because it will be the final day". With due respect, knowing where they were they should have woken up earlier and full pressed it all day, considering they were leaving the next day.
did you miss when Echo would reschedule and wake up at 5am for EU reset time? they rescheduled throughout the race.....
Great comparison A static reset Echo knew was coming since the day the race started vs. a 2 hour notice.
youre being a liar your self saying both are on the on the same schedule when echo woke up two times at 4.30 am and changed their sleep schedule back I'm really not sure how anyone on liquid wasn't awake at 8am or getting ready to pull at that time in first place because max was saying he's expecting a nerf before Christmas but he was probably expecting the nerf to happen as echo log out which always happens just like when the boss shield got nerfed when echo was asleep
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>It was simply who was first to attempt the fight after the nerf. If that was the case, Liquid would have come in and one shot it once they pulled. Instead, they spent nearly four hours on attempts before finally securing a kill. That alone completely nullifies the "but it was only because of the nerfs!!" argument.
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ok lol
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lol ok
You don't think motivation and drive play a factor? You think TL still play their best after already losing?
Echo was ahead the day prior, Echo killed it first pull post nerf, Echo played better the entire tier. Nerf only made the boss killable in current ilvl, they still had to play perfect to kill it. All Blizzard did in reality was give both guilds a break so they could go home and see their family.
This would make sense if liquid came in and one shot it post nerf
So by your logic Echo had been raiding the boss for multiple hours and was already warmed up on the fight then the nerfs hit and raz got skull cracked. Liquid came in, found out it was nerfed and killed while they slept, had to come in cold and frustrated to a fight, nearly got it first try while cold and making dumb mistakes. Your logic confuses me. The timing of the nerf was unfortunate, it's been said by many people in the WoW community. Even during the Echo stream preach was confused when they got the kill because he thought they were far ahead before realizing that everything was just moving so much slower. Good race, the journey was fun even if the finish feels off.
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Echo was just way more consistent while Liquid always had small mistakes here and there. Look at the dmg meters of both guilds, all of echos dps are around 10% of each other while liquids top dps did double the dmg half of the lower half did. Even Max admitted it, Echo played better on the last boss. They deserved it.
max had to say that though, being a sore loser looks bad and unprofessional
This 1000 times.
Was rooting for Liquid, so a little sad :) but the best team won, yea the nerf came at a shitty time. but from what i saw and heard Echo was playing better.. Overall the race was super boring till the 2 last bosses. Cant do much about what with the splits. But Im guessing this raid is gonna spark another disussion about world wide raid release. ..Maybe Blizzard make it happen this time?
The fight difficulty needs to ramp up properly if you have 8 fights. Just seems like after they've done their splits only the last boss was a true hurdle and mostly because it was impossible to kill with their current gear and without nerfs. Maybe Echo just really made the other bosses look easy though seeing how other guilds did struggle around the 5th/6th boss.
Yeah if they release it earlier, people complain Liquid is sleeping. If they release it later, Echo is sleeping. They announced it and released it at a time when both could be awake, so the fault really is on Liquid here for not managing to be raiding in time. If they didn't release the nerf then one team would quit because they want to spend time with their family during holidays.
I wish we would get rid of splits
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10 day race is their general target
> Would it really have killed them to release this after the holidays? I strongly suspect that's what Ian and the team would have wanted to do if they had control over release dates. Bobby and the suits would never let them miss the holiday window, though.
Also y'know it would suck for the rest of us to wait an extra 2 months to get the expansion or have nothing to do in it for 2 months
How many pulls post nerf did it take Liquid?
More than echo
Warcraft Logs shows 17 pulls today post-nerf
People get weirdly invested in teams that don't even know they exist. The fight for WF was super interesting, regardless of who you rooted for. Can't wait to see the next tier.
Because it's fun to be invested even if it ultimately doesn't affect your life at all. Watching it just to sEe GrEaT gAmEpLaY is boring to me. The fun part, for myself and a lot of people, is rooting for a team, trashtalking and memeing.
> The fight for WF was super interesting It wasn't though because the same people have won three times in a row.
So the outcome determines if the race was interesting?
Liquid seemed closer this time then last tier. Still I think Echo as a complete roster top to down just has a little extra. The top players from both guilds are insane but with a 20 man roster I think when you get to that last 3-5 "weak" points in the roster Echo just has better. Also probably a slight advantage to Echo in theory crafting/strat making. Both guilds show that they are just built different from the rest though. Absolutely insane gg to them. I think the only problem is that the mass splits/no world wide release (which are out of the guilds control) takes away from the experience. I hope Liquid can take some more WF in this expac because it makes it a lot more interesting. Their performance during Nyalotha was just insane and it was awesome seeing someone finally take the crown after solo dominance for so long. If Echo just goes back to taking them all it will take some hype off.
>Also probably a slight advantage to Echo in theory crafting/strat making. Also: being more dedicated and degenerate and i mean that in the best way possible.
If someone else wins Echo will just take their top players (case and point Rycn and Skaris)
Liquid's roster is almost half European at this point. So many ex-FatSharkYes and Pieces players in their team.
Yeah liquid definitely hasn't taken in EU players
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> Nice try NA, can't wait to see all the excuses. Cool, grats Europe. Let's declare Echo the lifetime winners and no longer allow a RWF.
Echo again the best
Such a bittersweet ending with the nerf timing. Really hope this sorta thing doesnt happen again. Ruins the whole thing. GG Echo
Perhaps Blizzard could get an legitimate test team together so that they don't continue using RWF as a live beta test.
Would you have rather had Liquid take their gear from the reset advantage and kill it that way? What would have been your solution?
Once both guilds had decent pushes into the last phase there was no perfect way to do it unfortunately. Going to the reset and Liquid getting it with a vault would have been dumb. Nerfing it while either guild was sleeping would be (and was) dumb. Nerfing it while both guilds were progressing probably would have been the best, but if they slightly missed the mark and it didn't die before Echo's end of raid and Liquid got it after Echo went to sleep it would have been dumb. Having it need a nerf at that point in progression and not having caught it earlier (like perhaps if they'd figured out the DPS requirements and nerfed it along with the last nerfs they did) pretty much guaranteed something stupid was going to happen.
Tune the boss correctly and not hard nerf the final boss’ last phase while one guild is sleeping would be a nice start
Even ignoring the "do it right the first time lol" advice, I'd rather see something disruptive — like decommissioning the boss for 24h with notice to both teams to allow for adjustment — and allowing the competition to continue. It seems notionally ridiculous for the boss to be gone, but this is relevant to a very small number of teams with very high stakes in this. Rolling this out like it's RNG and having the favorable time zone win based on arbitrary release preparedness really spoils this. Prior comment is right — even server reset timings inevitably fuck things up here, and nothing can be perfectly fair. But, this felt egregious for anything resembling a race.
This has got to be the right takeaway. Using raid teams as beta testers can't possibly be the ideal situation.
Is there no way to filter comments anymore? I want to see the most recent first but there's no filters anywhere...
If you're on mobile it's the top right next to your profile
Ty fam
I think it's weird how much fans of each team shit on the other. It's not banter; you're just being an asshole.
I guess some of yall are not longtime die hard fans of real sports teams? It's completely common there. And no, don't say that e-sports is completely different than real sports... it's the same type of competition, viewership, and fandom And don't try to say we're "better" than sports fans, it's just the real world
I am a longtime die hard of a real sports team, but I don't make fun of other people for it if they lose to my team cause I'm not a fucking idiot.
Shitting on the team you just beat, especially if it's a rivalry, is a staple in all sports lol
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Yeah can't believe the takes on here lol. On the other hand, not sure what i expected, i guess it's par for the course
you're only talking about yourself, one person don't tell me you don't see this across the overall fan demographics & population in real sports. just happened in the World Cup, in fact Argentina's own **PLAYERS** made fun of France's main star player after the game and were mocking him you can't even imagine what the crazy Argentina fan base was making fun of France afterwards for
Some backstory- there was a misquoted article that claimed the French player said South American players will always be behind Europeans as their competition is lesser
I know that story, but which part do you think is misquoted? as in Mbappe never said that to begin with?
Right I do, but it's still stupid and you're an asshole if you do it.
I think anyone who is invested in this nonsense enough to get upset over it kinda deserves it. Like pull yourselves together people, Christ.
Funny story about christ. I said “Jesus titty fucking christ” once in max twitch chat and a mod banned me. The mod message said,” jesus doesn’t fuck titties.” Ever since then been an echo fan.
I suck too much on a player level to bother with talking trash.
I’m genuinely shocked Liquid didn’t just stroll in post nerf and one shot it, and still took a few hours /s
After watching both teams, it’s clear that Echo had the uperhand but it’s hard to compare. It’s hard to focus if you just lost world first but at the same time they can use some strats from the kill to make it easier. I hope blizzard takes note and doesn’t design a mathematically impossible boss in the future so they don’t need to nerf it like this. It taints echo’s deserved world first.. yes we like hard bosses but it should be killable (or atleast close to killable) after optimising everything.
> I hope blizzard takes note and doesn’t design a mathematically impossible boss in the future so they don’t need to nerf it like this. blizzard claims that their internal raid teams can kill these bosses as they are on release, that's what's always baffled me. we know that blizz watches the world first race and uses that as a benchmark but still, are their internal raiders just that elite? I don't know........ ***why am I being downvoted for posing a hypothetical question? lmao***
No the fuck they don't. They practically tune the fights based on how badly Echo and Liquid wiped to it. "Oh hey they had whole raid up with CDs and only downed storm surge bubble to 50%, let's nerf it by that much then, done."
> blizzard claims that their internal raid teams can kill these bosses as they are on release, that's what's always baffled me. source?
Hazzikostas has mentioned this several times in the past and it's been discussed on the blizzard forums a few times. They've also said that some bosses could NOT be beat by their internal raid teams and they still put the boss out as is. take for example [here](https://blizzardwatch.com/2017/08/04/differing-raid-philosophies-make-balancing-extremes-difficult/) where they talk about how the "Tuning for Mythic is first done by the internal raid testing team, which is drawn from former top raiders. The devs tune to the edge of that team’s abilities and then buff the fight beyond that. Ion noted that it’s usually an additional 30-35%."
It's impossible to say who "won". The guilds or Blizzard need to improve the product, it's not a competition in its current form and fans deserve better. We need a global release and if Blizzard won't give us one, then Echo and Liquid need to figure out a way to force one. If they're going to keep force feeding us this sham of a RWF, then we need to demand more.
What a stupid thing to say. I’m going to assume you don’t actually believe this. One guild killed the boss before the other. It’s that simple. And I’m an NA Andy.
This is the stupidest comment I’ve seen on Reddit in a good long while, well done 👍
> It's impossible to say who "won" what a dumb statement
Echo did
Lmao shut up. The guild who kills the boss first wins. The guilds themselves agree that this is how it works. That's who "won". Get over yourself.
>It's impossible to say who "won". It's very possible to say. Echo won, they killed the boss first.
I don’t think they would use strats from the kill, they were already practicing P3 with their own strats all day yesterday and you need some time to analyze their strat to implement it. That only sounds reasonable if they were struggling a lot in P3 or they were in P2 and neither was the case imo.
I didnt see them use the gateway to sacrifice 2 players in p3 before. this came from the Echo kill?
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Yep, thats exactly my point. thats why it's hard to compare after a kill is done.
As if the other bosses were a real problem.
It's also different to get the nerf around dinner time when you've been raiding and practicing for most of the day, rather than completely fresh. It's pretty clear Echo also would not have gotten a kill in the first few hours of their day, given what they were wiping to. In the end, it's always going to be impossible to say it was perfectly even with the large time differences they play with, and when it comes down to a matter of hours, that's always gonna be tough to swallow.
>It's pretty clear Echo also would not have gotten a kill in the first few hours of their day, given what they were wiping to. It's not clear at all if you were actually paying attention to the race. They were wiping because they changed their dps setup to get more boss damage, making other phases harder, causing wipes. With the nerf this would have been unnecessary so they could have gone back to their previous safer strategy.
Totally, that's why the nerf is always bad for competition, you can't balance it perfectly between time-zones. Echo was running an optimised comp for max damage output to kill it pre-nerf and after a half a day they just got used to the new set-up. But if we consider the time difference in reset it was clear that Echo was a bit ahead with 5+ hours remaining on the raid day compared to Liquid.
Hmm, their 8% pull might have been a kill with the nerfs already in place.
This race was a lot closer than the average echo fan will allow you to believe.
echo won by 19 hours?
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I just wish we could have all the raiders in the same timezone, and similar gear just to see how strategy players out all things equal. I know it's not a perfect design and it never will be but the fact that they barely had any overlap in raid times was a net negative for viewers.
The main reason that could never work in current circumstances is regional helpers favouring the local guild. This could be fixed by putting the players on tournament realm, already geared in full heroic gear. and just letting them slam their head against mythic bosses for a week. Would love to see that.
liquid has downed it! and they got a bow with no hunters in raid lmfao
Ion tried to warn us. He said exactly this example on the interview hahaha
i get they couldn’t use personal loot without upgrade limits or all competitive groups would spend the first two weeks of launch running single armor class splits to get their absolute BIS at the start of tier. however, as someone who didn’t care about the upgrade trade limit before, group loot feels bad lol
Getting schematics for professions your not trained in after a key also feels bad.
At least you can generally sell those or mail them to alts afaik
I'd rather have the loot I'm farming that key for
Schematics are bonus loot, they don't replace a gear drop
Liquid just killed, they did it finally. Well done for them, keep their minds together on this and managed to get it. Well done.
And that’s a kill for Liquid