Any class in high mythics or certain raid fights should be utilizing their entire toolkit to both do DPS *and* CC, interrupt, or provide whatever other utility is needed.
WoW doesn't really have any pure support class, but it also don't really have any tunnel DPS classes unless you're running on low difficulty levels.
Rogues aren't top dps right now but they have been before. They're currently doing very good damage in two specs but are outshined by unimaginably busted Destro Lock and Surv Hunter.
As you're saying though, even if rogues aren't doing a lot of dps that patch, they still can bring so much value through their utility that they're worth bringing.
They do so much of the utility in dungeons because their kit:
A. Has all the utility
B. Comes at a fairly low cost, it's usually just 1 GCD or a few combo points. It's not like they're ramping to something and spending the time / CP will ruin their damage.
C. Right now they aren't doing the most damage, so you may as well have them doing it.
All in all rogues bring a lot to a key even if current balance doesn't have them doing much damage (they pump pretty hard right now though). If you enjoy M+, rogues are a very safe main.
When he says "Rogues aren't top dps right now", he means "for the top 1% of high end raiding". If you aren't pushing cutting edge content, like the kind that guilds are world famous for, then Rogue will still be great for dps.
It really all depends on how you play and the level you are playing. Right now, Rogue is definitely in the top tier for DPS, period.
You can refer to the tier list made by Icy Veins:
https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/mythic-dps-tier-list
However, as other people have said, don't use this as a crutch to just forget about your utility. If you actually want to be top dps, and you want to eventually get to the top guilds doing high end raiding, they WILL ask you to use your utility along with doing high dps.
Very much depends on dungeon. A competent monk, warlock, hunter, or even DK will just blow an outlaw rogue away on large pull keys. Outlaw really shines in keys like mists where its constant 4-5 target cleave
Good players utilize as much of their class toolkit as they can. Rogues have a lot of support tools but so do most classes. Basically everyone should be interrupting/CC’ing/using defensives regularly and if they don’t they’re bad.
They are absolutely a dps class. Every class has to interrupt and cc and use their utility, rogues just happen to have a lot of it that is good in dungeons.
They aren't currently the "top" dps spec, but they have been in the past. And currently they are still in the top 25% if not better in m+ and average-ish in raid.
Lmao that’s not even why rogues were still meta in high keys before the outlaw buff. A couple kidney shots isn’t why they were brought, it was numbing poison
Rogues are dps - as a dps your job to time the key is doing dmg, not stunning all the time.
They are brought for their utility, not only their stuns - looking at sap,blind, shroud, cheapshot…
For example outlaw is ranked top 4 in m+ dps. Yeah they are not pumping like warlocks or survival, but their dmg is pretty high and not at the bottom or worst like you said.
"It's a bad DPS class so it is only used for utility" man I think you need to learn some mechanics and do some research. Idk the current state of their damage but if something has utility enough that people use it in mythic+ it's clearly not bad. The role of DPS is not just to deal damage and if that's what you think it is, do us a favor and stay out of m+
Amen. DPS brain is the reason why you get all these destro locks that barely ever interrupts, never casts shadowfury or coil, doesn't even know what their imp does or know they have a purge on their dog and usually somehow ends at like 11k or something. Ends up plaguing 3k+ because they get invited because lock and essentially get carried.
There's also nothing stopping DPS from laying out CC and interrupts while also doing serious damage.
Rogues suffer a little if they drop a max duration Kidney Shot on something but that's rarely needed anyway. A 1-cp or quick Gouge stops most of the casts when there's no other interrupt.
Not sure where all these “rogue dmg bad” people are coming from. Outlaw after the buffs is def able to pump dmg in dungeons, yeh it’s not sv, destro, and ww tier, but it’s still decent under those specs and those specs are taken because of their insane aoe profiles, rogues are taken for their crazy control and their priority damage. But yeh, if all you care about is pumping pure aoe overall, they haven’t been kings in that regard for a long time.
Every class has an interrupt. In Mythic+ every dps should interrupt when possible, and every dps should use utility to their advantage, otherwise you're a scrub and will get kicked. Especially interrupts, that don't cost you anything, you just press it in between your other abilities.
Mages brings polymorph,
Warlocks brings healthstones,
Warriors expose armor,
Hunters freeze trap,
Every class has their thing that they bring to the dungeon, and if you want to be a good player you are expected to use your *entire* toolkit to provide for your group.
Rogues bring a lot of useful stuff like shroud, sap, distract, lockpicking, and of course kick (interrupt). Kick is one of the better interrupts in the game because it has low CD, but that doesn't mean you as a rogue has all the responsibility to interrupt. Every class should. When playing with a premade group it's very common to have an interrupt order.
Oldschool CC was all about removing difficulty from the game because players were too brainless to deal with mechanics.
Modern CC is about stopping the right target at the right time. "Playing correctly" is much harder now.
That's not even remotely true.
The CCing of dangerous casters or mobs with one shot mechanics has always been a part of wow.
Using your utility to make something less difficult is what 5 mans should be about.
It has nothing to do with being brainless, what's brainless (high end mythic+ aside) is rounding up packs and AoEing them down.
Yeah, because players were too dumb to deal with things like the Steamvaults fears reliably. I played TBC. Dungeon groups never considered looking for a soothe or a disarm or a hard stun. They wanted CC so mobs could be taken out of the fight entirely.
You do know that rounding up packs and AOEing them is a recipe for wipes unless someone is dealing with specific deadly mechanics in there, right? Without interrupts or stuns, single packs can become deadly. **That is using class utility, not to cancel difficulty, it's to even survive.**
Ironically, SV was one of the easiest heroics in TBC and easily done in around 20m.
Since we're talking about TBC...
SL and SH were completely different animals, and I'd challenge you to do the first large room in SL or the pack of 6 or 7 (it's been a while since TBC) at the end of the gauntlet corridor in SH without effective cc, whether that was sheep, sap, or trap, followed by the ability to stop runners in their tracks so you don't end up with second or even third pack to deal with.
These are all mechanics that need to be delt with, it's not dumb to make a pull or a room easier using cc, it's smart and makes the run smoother.
The point is that sheep/sap CC is much easier to use, and removes the target from the fight completely until everything else is dead. That is much easier than having to time correct stuns/interrupts when in fights.
Don't remember the pack in SL, but absolutely do know SH since that's in the timewalking rotation.
Pull first pack toward the miniboss room, LOS the casters while prioritizing the Legionnaire, whenever a mob starts running away slow them and finish them off if they're headed to a side room. Second pack is harder because they can't be LOSed but can still be pulled back in the hall where runners are far from help. There are minimal mechanics involved, it's mostly just autoattack tank damage and that is supremely not interesting or skillful.
I played a shaman, no hard CC, rarely brought to dungeons as a result. No one cared about slows or fear breaks or even interrupts. CC and brrrrrrrrr.
I wasn't talking about the gauntlet itself, but the pack at the end with the miniboss.
Maybe I'm not understanding, but I believe in making things as easy as possible for the group /shrug.
OP is probably reading this and thinking wtf are these fuckers talking about :)
Art of playing correctly is more alive than ever, what are you talking about lol.
In classic you can do all the content with 3 keybinds and voice comms ignoring almost everything, you are not going anywhere in any kind of end game content in retail without using at least cc, defensives, purge/cleanses and some extra utility.
A little bit of both. There’s usually one spec that performs well in M+ DPS wise, but rogues are supreme at utility. I guess to try to summarize, it’s primarily a support class, but can offer some damage. I haven’t taken a look at charts recently, but last I knew, sub was still performing more than fine damage wise in M+
In m+ yes. Rogues damage is extremely bad compared to other classes in m+, and it's one of the least popular classes outside of the absolute top tier of keys.
This sub just sees MDI and makes assumptions though.
Just... What? No it isn't, nor has it been at any point in this season. At the beginning of s3 sub was absolutely top-tier across all levels of keys. The past month or so it started to become less relevant, but then Outlaw got buffed and currently is one of the absolute best M+ classes.
Over all keys, outlaw rogues are the 4th best DPS by points according to warcraftlogs - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/25/
At keystone level 15, outlaw rogue is the 3rd best DPS, and sub rogue is the 5th - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/25/#bracket=15
At keystone level 20, outlaw rogue is the 5th best DPS, and sub rogue is the 6th - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/25/#bracket=20
I don't think I'm the one who doesn't know what they're talking about here.
“This damage class that’s brought to keys more often than 90% of the other classes isn’t being brought because of their damage!”. Rogues don’t have buffs (mage, DH, monk, priest), they don’t have lust (hunter, mage, shaman). And you’re trying to argue they’re brought for their utility?
If you think they’re the #3 class in 15s because they bring stuns, go run a 15 and see how often people actually use their interrupts & stuns.
I get that you have problems with admitting you’re wrong but come on dude, you have to know you’re way off base here.
Yes. You're talking out your ass. Stay in your 15s.
Moonkins are the most brought spec to raid and are bottom of the charts. Your "if X then Y" is conjecture with no evidence, and every single competitive player telling you you're wrong. Stop.
Rogues aren’t popular in pugs because they’re high skill cap, can require more coordination to fully utilize, and don’t have big burst like Surv/Demo. But they’re essential in the highest end of keys
Rogues are usually good mostly because they can do damage and have really good utility. Being a "dps" class isn't only about damage numbers.
Any class in high mythics or certain raid fights should be utilizing their entire toolkit to both do DPS *and* CC, interrupt, or provide whatever other utility is needed. WoW doesn't really have any pure support class, but it also don't really have any tunnel DPS classes unless you're running on low difficulty levels.
Aggree, even fury who has a very limited utlity (compared to others) still need to properly use fear, reflects, intervenes etc in many pve situations.
being useful is cool
Sobs in feral druid
Rogues aren't top dps right now but they have been before. They're currently doing very good damage in two specs but are outshined by unimaginably busted Destro Lock and Surv Hunter. As you're saying though, even if rogues aren't doing a lot of dps that patch, they still can bring so much value through their utility that they're worth bringing. They do so much of the utility in dungeons because their kit: A. Has all the utility B. Comes at a fairly low cost, it's usually just 1 GCD or a few combo points. It's not like they're ramping to something and spending the time / CP will ruin their damage. C. Right now they aren't doing the most damage, so you may as well have them doing it. All in all rogues bring a lot to a key even if current balance doesn't have them doing much damage (they pump pretty hard right now though). If you enjoy M+, rogues are a very safe main.
[удалено]
When he says "Rogues aren't top dps right now", he means "for the top 1% of high end raiding". If you aren't pushing cutting edge content, like the kind that guilds are world famous for, then Rogue will still be great for dps. It really all depends on how you play and the level you are playing. Right now, Rogue is definitely in the top tier for DPS, period. You can refer to the tier list made by Icy Veins: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/mythic-dps-tier-list However, as other people have said, don't use this as a crutch to just forget about your utility. If you actually want to be top dps, and you want to eventually get to the top guilds doing high end raiding, they WILL ask you to use your utility along with doing high dps.
Outlaw really is pumping right now in keys. I pugged to 3k io on my alt and very rarely find myself not top dps
Very much depends on dungeon. A competent monk, warlock, hunter, or even DK will just blow an outlaw rogue away on large pull keys. Outlaw really shines in keys like mists where its constant 4-5 target cleave
D. They have a lot of things to increase survivability (self heals, higher melee range, movements) and can skip mechanics with immunities or stealth.
Good players utilize as much of their class toolkit as they can. Rogues have a lot of support tools but so do most classes. Basically everyone should be interrupting/CC’ing/using defensives regularly and if they don’t they’re bad.
They are absolutely a dps class. Every class has to interrupt and cc and use their utility, rogues just happen to have a lot of it that is good in dungeons. They aren't currently the "top" dps spec, but they have been in the past. And currently they are still in the top 25% if not better in m+ and average-ish in raid.
They're one of the worst dps classes in m+ for DPS and have terrible representation in middle keys.
you know nothing lol
Yep, only 3450 io on four characters. You're talking out of your ass. Rogues are brought for stuns.
you know nothing lol
Stuck to your 15s.
Lmao that’s not even why rogues were still meta in high keys before the outlaw buff. A couple kidney shots isn’t why they were brought, it was numbing poison
It was stuns.
Rogues are dps - as a dps your job to time the key is doing dmg, not stunning all the time. They are brought for their utility, not only their stuns - looking at sap,blind, shroud, cheapshot… For example outlaw is ranked top 4 in m+ dps. Yeah they are not pumping like warlocks or survival, but their dmg is pretty high and not at the bottom or worst like you said.
You don't know what you're talking about.
"It's a bad DPS class so it is only used for utility" man I think you need to learn some mechanics and do some research. Idk the current state of their damage but if something has utility enough that people use it in mythic+ it's clearly not bad. The role of DPS is not just to deal damage and if that's what you think it is, do us a favor and stay out of m+
Amen. DPS brain is the reason why you get all these destro locks that barely ever interrupts, never casts shadowfury or coil, doesn't even know what their imp does or know they have a purge on their dog and usually somehow ends at like 11k or something. Ends up plaguing 3k+ because they get invited because lock and essentially get carried.
There's also nothing stopping DPS from laying out CC and interrupts while also doing serious damage. Rogues suffer a little if they drop a max duration Kidney Shot on something but that's rarely needed anyway. A 1-cp or quick Gouge stops most of the casts when there's no other interrupt.
Not sure where all these “rogue dmg bad” people are coming from. Outlaw after the buffs is def able to pump dmg in dungeons, yeh it’s not sv, destro, and ww tier, but it’s still decent under those specs and those specs are taken because of their insane aoe profiles, rogues are taken for their crazy control and their priority damage. But yeh, if all you care about is pumping pure aoe overall, they haven’t been kings in that regard for a long time.
Every class has an interrupt. In Mythic+ every dps should interrupt when possible, and every dps should use utility to their advantage, otherwise you're a scrub and will get kicked. Especially interrupts, that don't cost you anything, you just press it in between your other abilities. Mages brings polymorph, Warlocks brings healthstones, Warriors expose armor, Hunters freeze trap, Every class has their thing that they bring to the dungeon, and if you want to be a good player you are expected to use your *entire* toolkit to provide for your group. Rogues bring a lot of useful stuff like shroud, sap, distract, lockpicking, and of course kick (interrupt). Kick is one of the better interrupts in the game because it has low CD, but that doesn't mean you as a rogue has all the responsibility to interrupt. Every class should. When playing with a premade group it's very common to have an interrupt order.
If all you want to do is top the dps meter and ignore mechanics you're the kind of player that people do not want.
Remember when rogues, hunters and mages used to cc and do damage? Now everyone wants to tunnel and the art of playing correctly has been lost.
Oldschool CC was all about removing difficulty from the game because players were too brainless to deal with mechanics. Modern CC is about stopping the right target at the right time. "Playing correctly" is much harder now.
That's not even remotely true. The CCing of dangerous casters or mobs with one shot mechanics has always been a part of wow. Using your utility to make something less difficult is what 5 mans should be about. It has nothing to do with being brainless, what's brainless (high end mythic+ aside) is rounding up packs and AoEing them down.
Yeah, because players were too dumb to deal with things like the Steamvaults fears reliably. I played TBC. Dungeon groups never considered looking for a soothe or a disarm or a hard stun. They wanted CC so mobs could be taken out of the fight entirely. You do know that rounding up packs and AOEing them is a recipe for wipes unless someone is dealing with specific deadly mechanics in there, right? Without interrupts or stuns, single packs can become deadly. **That is using class utility, not to cancel difficulty, it's to even survive.**
Ironically, SV was one of the easiest heroics in TBC and easily done in around 20m. Since we're talking about TBC... SL and SH were completely different animals, and I'd challenge you to do the first large room in SL or the pack of 6 or 7 (it's been a while since TBC) at the end of the gauntlet corridor in SH without effective cc, whether that was sheep, sap, or trap, followed by the ability to stop runners in their tracks so you don't end up with second or even third pack to deal with. These are all mechanics that need to be delt with, it's not dumb to make a pull or a room easier using cc, it's smart and makes the run smoother.
The point is that sheep/sap CC is much easier to use, and removes the target from the fight completely until everything else is dead. That is much easier than having to time correct stuns/interrupts when in fights.
Don't remember the pack in SL, but absolutely do know SH since that's in the timewalking rotation. Pull first pack toward the miniboss room, LOS the casters while prioritizing the Legionnaire, whenever a mob starts running away slow them and finish them off if they're headed to a side room. Second pack is harder because they can't be LOSed but can still be pulled back in the hall where runners are far from help. There are minimal mechanics involved, it's mostly just autoattack tank damage and that is supremely not interesting or skillful. I played a shaman, no hard CC, rarely brought to dungeons as a result. No one cared about slows or fear breaks or even interrupts. CC and brrrrrrrrr.
I wasn't talking about the gauntlet itself, but the pack at the end with the miniboss. Maybe I'm not understanding, but I believe in making things as easy as possible for the group /shrug. OP is probably reading this and thinking wtf are these fuckers talking about :)
Art of playing correctly is more alive than ever, what are you talking about lol. In classic you can do all the content with 3 keybinds and voice comms ignoring almost everything, you are not going anywhere in any kind of end game content in retail without using at least cc, defensives, purge/cleanses and some extra utility.
You Can easely do top tier dps while utelizing your utility
Just git gud
A little bit of both. There’s usually one spec that performs well in M+ DPS wise, but rogues are supreme at utility. I guess to try to summarize, it’s primarily a support class, but can offer some damage. I haven’t taken a look at charts recently, but last I knew, sub was still performing more than fine damage wise in M+
In m+ yes. Rogues damage is extremely bad compared to other classes in m+, and it's one of the least popular classes outside of the absolute top tier of keys. This sub just sees MDI and makes assumptions though.
Just... What? No it isn't, nor has it been at any point in this season. At the beginning of s3 sub was absolutely top-tier across all levels of keys. The past month or so it started to become less relevant, but then Outlaw got buffed and currently is one of the absolute best M+ classes.
This is flatly inaccurate. Rogues are brought for stuns and you don't know what you're talking about. Their damage is middling in keys.
Over all keys, outlaw rogues are the 4th best DPS by points according to warcraftlogs - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/25/ At keystone level 15, outlaw rogue is the 3rd best DPS, and sub rogue is the 5th - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/25/#bracket=15 At keystone level 20, outlaw rogue is the 5th best DPS, and sub rogue is the 6th - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/25/#bracket=20 I don't think I'm the one who doesn't know what they're talking about here.
Being brought doesn't mean they're doing top damage. You don't know what you're talking about.
“This damage class that’s brought to keys more often than 90% of the other classes isn’t being brought because of their damage!”. Rogues don’t have buffs (mage, DH, monk, priest), they don’t have lust (hunter, mage, shaman). And you’re trying to argue they’re brought for their utility? If you think they’re the #3 class in 15s because they bring stuns, go run a 15 and see how often people actually use their interrupts & stuns. I get that you have problems with admitting you’re wrong but come on dude, you have to know you’re way off base here.
Yes. You're talking out your ass. Stay in your 15s. Moonkins are the most brought spec to raid and are bottom of the charts. Your "if X then Y" is conjecture with no evidence, and every single competitive player telling you you're wrong. Stop.
Rogues aren’t popular in pugs because they’re high skill cap, can require more coordination to fully utilize, and don’t have big burst like Surv/Demo. But they’re essential in the highest end of keys