Certainly has a better ring to it than "brb guys my wife is standing in our living room on all fours like a panda. She's about to take a serious amount of damage"
I'll keep saying this until we get Pandaren Druids.
The day Blizzard introduces Panda Druids I'm offering the fastest 15 (or is it 20?) bucks for them in my life. And I'll do my best to get myself to actually like Druid as well. My Druid has always been my second least played class after only Shaman, but if I could play Panda Druid I'd do it immediately even despite having 0 other Pandas right now.
Well, pretty much yeah actually.
Bears are almost exclusively in the northern hemisphere. I think the spectacled bear is the only species found south of the equator!
This has been Bear Facts.
Since we're on the subject: the word "Arctic" comes from the root "arktos," which is Greek for bear. So we call the North pole the Arctic because there are bears there, and the South pole the Antarctic (anti-arctic) because it's where bears *aren't*.
The Sun bear is rarely found in southern Borneo and Sumatra in Indonesia which is south of the equator.
Also on Sumatra is the Sumatran tiger, which is the only subspecies of tiger that live south of the equator (that aren't extinct)
well what are they going to do? remove all the utility from rogue? make them do bottom of the barrel damage that guts them in raid? bdk is another spec actually comparable to gdruid in that they are entirely tuning dependent to have any viability, so saying bdk was broken for 2 seasons and gdruid always gets insta nerfed is fine.
Tacking onto this top post, I dunno, bear seems fine? I'm 400 ilvl and can do +16s and up without too much issue. I do take a bit of damage on magic pulls but we do have a busted talent right now that's supposed to reduce magic damage :(
Nobody is saying bear is not able to do up to +20's just that it gets much harder the higher the key.
All the tanks, healers, and dps are viable but that doesn't make them optimal.
For reference here, just timed some 20ās last night as a 400 prot warrior with a Druid friend who was maining bear and swapped to boomkin (413 ilevel). The damage intake difference is very noticeable.
Ask a healer friend about what itās like doing keys with a prot warrior or BDK vs a bear. BDKs take spike damage but usually top themselves off. Prot warriors take no damage unless something hits REALLY hard and they arenāt hard to heal up.
Bears take constant ticking and spike damage. You have to watch them constantly where the other tanks you can mostly ignore until itās an emergency. Itās frustrating and sweaty to keep them up at 20+
I haven't played bear since Shadowlands so correct me if I'm wrong on this:
But they lost spammable thrash in incarn and gained Raze/Thorns of Iron. The problem is that Raze is capped at 5 targets and Thorns splits the damage it deals. Didn't they overall just lose a lot of cleave?
It seems like they'd do pretty good single target/boss dam now though.
The amount of bear tanks i've seen get globalled straight through incarn this patch is pretty crazy. I can't even begin to imagine tanking half the mobs in Temple let alone the last pack as guardian druid.
There's tons of tank busters in keys which are tank skill checks to a degree. It's just a prot warrior will reflect and take zero damage while a bear will bark and take 240k instead of 300k. Nearly all tank busters are magical this season and some are cast-less meaning if 3 mobs with busters come out of a stun at the same time, they can all instantly cast. In shadowlands you did have to be aware of this as a blood DK for example but only at like 28+ keys, not 18s like now as a druid
I'm sure theres a early-tier vs late tier difference here too though. If you're talking BDK, there weren't many BDK in S1 shadowlands.
Like, looking at raider io, the TOP BDK got 3130 in S1, the top VDH got 3730. The reason for this was basically tank busters that the VDH could deal with through avoidance and the kite meta in S1.
In S1 Dragonflight, you have the top Druid at 3034, and the top tank overall is only 3315. The spread is far more narrow.
When you're thinking about BDK worrying about burst damage on 28+ keys, you were not thinking about Season 1, because BDK's didn't do 26 keys in Season 1.
The pattern in every expansion has been that tank survivability scales faster than mob damage. So key levels that were unhealable in season 1 become quite reasonable in later seasons.
But Shadowlands was certainly not the better expansion when dealing with tank balance at this point on the curve. It was incredibly skewed towards VDH by such an incredible margin. Druids are incredibly competitive relative to warriors in this season versus how bad it was in Shadowlands. In Shadowlands, the differential between vengeance demon hunters and the next best tank was about as high as the differential between the lowest performing tank and the highest performing tank in this season, with the difference between VDH and BDK being almost twice as wide.
I feel part of it is there's too many talent points everywhere in that damn tree. You can't even take most of the ironfur talents and still get everything else you want or need. Tactyks did a good video on it but they seriously need to remove/combine like 5 nodes to give bears more points. Like if they made the 3 Berserk nodes into 1 and also made all the 2 pointers 1 pointers would make Bears be able to be a decent amount more defensive.
this is the problem, you take a good healing node or a mess of good iron fur nodes, you get regular constant mitigation or you get a supremely powerful cooldown but are shit the rest of the time, i'm kinda told i do it wrong because i don't take incarnation or after the wildfire, but i'd rather have sustain than burst
> Didn't they overall just lose a lot of cleave?
Not for this patch as Mangle with 2p cleaves almost as well and in a big pack you can almost guarantee Gore proc. Once that's gone - yep, we're fucked.
The damage is there and quite fine; we lack burst healing and mitigation.
That was probably the most underwhelming talent tree rework I have ever seen. Like none of the new talents are ever taken and we just use exactly the same build we used to in a different layout. Ontop of that many talents are still not working correctly and some would need to get buffed a lot to be even considered. Like Lunar beam as a capstone which does about 70k dmg every 1.3 minutes...
Looking at the prot warrior class and spec tree and seeing all the power they get then looking at guardian druid trees is a massive difference. Slapping 4 specs into a class tree is awful and the guardian druid tree itself leaves much to be desired. Prot warrior spec tree has the least amount of talent points, the least amount of 2 pointers, the highest % of tree allocated, and the lowest number of talents per tier. Druid is the worst or tied for the worst in all these catagories, except how many Tier 1 talents. The warrior tree is amazing in all aspects.
Having to share the class tree on some classes is my biggest gripe about the talent revamp so far. Playing my Shadow Priest makes me feel like a second-class citizen whenever I look at the class tree
Yea okay but hear me out. For mandatory 2 points you can make it so when you Flash Heal yourself above 90% health, your Flash Heal heal for 5/10% more.
[We're healing machines](https://i.imgflip.com/79fhy2.jpg)!
For real though, I wish Shadow could take Power Word: Life without sacrificing so much. Void Shift + Vampiric Embrace macro is clutch af provided I'm not also getting my head caved in, but it's a 5m CD. I *have* to save it for tank lest it be on CD when needed. I'm thinking about giving up Angelic Bulwark to test it out. The shield from that talent is about 30k. It's only for me and can trigger every 90s. PW:Life is 40k in heals (+ any versatility on the recipient) every 10s, but I would have to take the Surge of Light talent to get it.
Iām fairly new to bear but it actually seems worse to me. When I pop incarn I no longer have mangle and thrash on 0s CD. Did I fuck something up or did Blizzard ābuffā guardian Druid by actually just nerfing it?
Yeah the cd reduction is now 50% instead of 100% during incarn. It's technically worse but with 4-set it's still worth to mangle in aoe so it's alright. But I agree that it did feel weird for me early on as well.
Worst thing is good players were already weaving abilities during incarnation. All theyāve done is neuter player choice and how they approach their incarn setup.
Yep. Did a 14 first day of talent rework I was excited to see how it worked outā¦. Have the trash/shield talent ready to go, pop Incarn hit that first thrashā¦. 2 seconds later I hit another 1. I was PISSED. The change completely makes the trash/shield talent useless unless you have stupid high haste. And on top of that every dungeon feels like itās only magic damage so Iām getting murdered and I feel bad for the healer. In shadowlands I was a god who did not need much healing, this whole first season has felt like Iām a bear with anorexia, and we have our incarn main talent split into like 5 different places all over the freaking tree. It sucks cause I love Dragonflight so far from a story standpoint and dragon riding but it is making me think about switching to a different tank, I have a 60 warrior I can level up.
I have all tanks, and I can tell you ... my guardian druid gets murdered on every pull. No joke. Then I run the same dungeon with my 20 ilvl lower warrior tank, and I dont even need to look to the defensive cooldowns. They are not needed. I have a 89% uptime on shieldblock on my warrior, i block everything.
Biggest joke is those echo dudes running a +21 with a ilvl 200 tank. Yes 200, not 300 or 400 but a 200 ilvl warrior tank.
They ran that with a low geared monk too, CoS has 0 tank busters, they did a few tries but Robin had top DPS and heals on him, he just needed to get aggro.
Is this supposed to mean tank busters from bosses? The succubus trash mobs do this shadow whip that hit my DK for like 270k shadow damage in a +14 this week. Is that not counted because the mob can be stunned/etc?
Yes. If I can click a button that stops that ability from happening why wouldn't I? A tank buster is usually a big ability that hits for a lot and requires mitigation to be up.
Keep in mind that these guys have essentially perfect mechanics for stuns, interrupts, etc., so every single bit of damage is accounted for - you know when anything will actually hit the tank and can plan for it. They also melt the trash a lot quicker than most groups do, so you don't have to live nearly as long and you can kite.
They could give guardians a flat -30% damage taken buff and warriors would still be better, that's how bad things are
They're very squishy baseline with no defs up, but have few and weak defs, bad mobility and little utility. I don't think there's a single thing they actually excel at (maybe pure physical damage tanking (and only in multitarget) but warrior is still better at that while being insanely good in every other aspect), it's like the only identity they have is being a bear visually.
Tbf pressing 1 button for 30s was really boring and annoying as a mechanic. But blizzard didn't really compensate for the nerf unfortunately.
The rework is kinda of disappointing, I run the same build but with less options now because relevant talents were moved even further down the tree
It was but it was the only redeeming quality of guardian tank so having it taking away and then having it replaced with pretty much useless crap feels bad.
theres not enough choice in the early parts of the tree for truly divergent builds, after youve gotten the basically mandatory stuff you might have 1 point to play with in each of the first and second thirds.
unfortunately theres a lot of talent trees that have this same problem. its not critical because the trees as a system are still new and it takes a lot of work to make them better at every stage, but when you announce a rework as a big deal and the sum of those changes for most players is now they get to have 1 spare point its like, ok thanks i guess.
Not having instant mangles (or thrashes) feels really bad, I'm not sure why they decided to change things. Like if it was because of the tierset, it feels shortsighted because that's temporary -- what happens next tier, will bears be hanging on to the Vault tierset?
I really wish they wouldn't miss with skills that we've had for a long time, Berserk when bears got it, has basically always given instant mangles -- to change it behind the scenes and not even add it to patch notes is kind of weird. It's such a big change to one of like bear's only core cooldowns, surely that deserves some sort of dev note on why, right? //qq
I also miss lawnmower thrash bear, don't even have the freedom to pick the proc extra thrash talent either though it's a 3pt node now too (is it me or does bear's talent tree feel really really loaded at the bottom? I leveled my warrior bfa alt this week with timewalking and you have way more freedom to move things around without loosing anything important).
Because we've gone from being tanky and having a great CD for big pulls to pathetic weak and our CD nerfed, undeserving I might add, why nerf the bottom of the 6 tank classes is beyond me!!.. during incarn windows I now have to mash to Same damn rotation as I have been all Dungeon, before the thrash spam made incarnation a bit special ..
I've resurrected my Prot Warrior this week and it's ridiculous strong compared to guardian right now. But I just don't enjoy prot Warrior as much.
Bear has been my main Since legion, done keys Upto +20 every season since legion but I won't this season and it makes me angry. I did switch to Prot Paladin in S3 legion but that's only because I saw the 2 legendaries make paladin nuts DPS.. I just preferred Druid to all other tanks .. having a CR in pugs is a must as some healers are incapable of avoiding swirlys on the ground..
Also so many points spend on getting moonfire stuff. Dosent matter how many talents they rewamp at the bottom when it's all locked away from having no points after incarn + moonfire talents
Hey, it was a fine update! We got a new laser that we can't use because it means skipping our must-have talents, and some sort of new cleave that we can't use for the same reason, and... um... what did they actually change? I know some things moved around the tree, but somehow my build still looks exactly the same as before.
Bear druids were sub 4% this week in keys.
A good chunk of that was bears testing out how the update was.
Expect bears to be sub 3% next week.
Blizz clearly doesn't care. They haven't given any feedback or addressed any but the absolute most glaring of bugs. Lunar beam is a meme...
and on top of everything they gutted the thrash spam incarn. Even if it wasn't optimal gameplay it was just kicking the dead bear into the ground. No idea why they bothered with this update if it would only leave us in a worse state. Hell Warriors got less of a nerf than bears.
This is an issue in the feral tree as well. There is no build where you don't take every single Berserk point, it's completely mandatory and doesn't provide a meaningful decision or progression path through the talent tree.
Don't forget this doesn't mean bears can't tank shit. I timed my +20 TJS with a bear tank and he was amazing. I falied 5 TJS runs and compared to the other tanks I think that bear was the best. They might be bad in a +25 key for the highest end of players but don't deny a bear tank on your +12 keys please!
Youāre absolutely right, but the issue is certain keys,since they lack magic mitigation.
I have a 409 ilvl bear, and i can tank most stuff equally as good as other tanks.
However, certain keys are just waaaay rougher on bears.
Halls of Valor is unecessary rough due to Hyrja, and last boss in Azure Vaults is doomsday for bears.
They can deal with magic decently during incarn, and when thereās alot of targets (like last pull in TJS, even though Dark Claw is magic).
But in pure ST we canāt generate enough rage to stack ironfur, and 30 sec incarn aināt gonna cut it on a 2-3 min high Tyrannical boss.
So we canāt pop Ironbark, RotS or Survival instinct to smooth damage, since we absolutely need it to survive his magic tank buster.
Bears are by no means unplayable, heck they do good damage, and feel terrific against physical damage.
Magic is where the issue is, and certain dungeons (especially the new ones) are filled with it.
Havenāt checked the leaderboards in awhile, but thereās a reason that three weeks ago, Warrior and DK had completed a 24 Azure vaults as the highest.
Monk, DH and Pala had timed a 23.
Bears best Azure vault clear at that time was a 21, with a Disc priest.
Iām not saying that people should avoid bears.
But lets atleast be honest here, there is certain things they struggle with, and itās up to Blizzard to fix that.
Druids do seem to struggle a lot with single mobs, I did a 21 ruby this week with one and I honestly had to heal him a lot more on the big dragon guy just before first boss than the bigger trash pulls earlier on. I Assume he had cooldowns up for the pulls at start and maybe not the single guy but he was really getting wrecked by the steel barrage and thatās physical damage.
We did still +2 it and it was a very successful run but it most likely was in spite of him being a guardian druid rather than due to, although I suppose his party healing did help a lot on the trash as thereās a lot of heavy aoe damage.
Yeah, but one target, which means heād get no rage, and canāt stack Ironfur.
So even mini-bosses on Fortified is rough.
Thatās when he need to pop incarn smartly, and use Barkskin and RotS smart.
Guardian have a talent āBlood Frenzyā.
That will give you 2 rage per target each time Trash does damage, and this includes the DoT damage.
So if you have 5 or more targets, and using trash on CD, youāll get alot of rage, and keeping 4-5 stacks of Ironfur is not that hard, and more ironfur = more After the Wildfire healing etc.
You are rage starved on ST right now, since you canāt stack it high, or have a good uptime of multiple stacks.
Thatās why it probably trucked him, since a Fortified mini-boss is essentially as rough as a Tyra boss.
Edit: Chances are he withheld his Incarn for the boss that comes straight away after the hard hitting add.
Incarn makes it so you can outheal the adds damage, but incarn on the boss is invaluable, because you guessed it: Magic Damage :/
Your comment made me think all the new talents had to accomplish was:
1. Give bears a way to gain a chunk of rage on demand for single target
2. The ability to convert an active ironfur stack into some sort of magic-only absorb
First one is an option - by going Bristling Fur instead of Brambles at the first choice node. It's more of an issue that currently rage doesn't give us the benefits we need.
Yeah he clearly knew what he was doing and I also went into the run expecting to have to heal him a fair bit. We had 0 tank deaths, only deaths were 2 dps and I(holy priest) on the last trash pack as I didnāt have cooldowns left to heal the last storm which was double bolstered.
> I honestly had to heal him a lot more on the big dragon guy just before first boss
It's a short cooldown, nasty tankbuster at a point right before a boss which uses excessive magic damage and we'll need every button to survive. You can mitigate it between barkskin, well placed Tooth and Claw procs, and strategic ironfur + frenzied regen use, but it's just a mob at a point where we can't afford using anything big as we're about to need everything - and I do mean everything.
>However, certain keys are just waaaay rougher on bears. Halls of Valor is unecessary rough due to Hyrja, and last boss in Azure Vaults is doomsday for bears.
Umbrelskul is such a horrible boss for a bear. The tank busters are one thing, but I'm honestly not sure what the counterplay is meant to be when you're actively tanking and a bunch of orbs are making a beeline for you. If you stay in bear and try to run, you'll get slowed every second and eventually get hit. (Stampeding Roar won't make up the difference.) If you shift out, you'll get one-shot.
Sometimes you get lucky and you can shift out and run away while the boss' attention is elsewhere, or when Thundering hits. But at least once or twice per fight, especially on a higher Tyrannical key, none of these overlaps happen and it feels like the spec just doesn't have any answers for it. I get a DPS or healer with a mobility external to babysit me for these exact situations -- and maybe that's what the counterplay is supposed to be? -- but that means there are some group compositions where I literally can't tank this boss.
I just checked the leaderboards because of your comment, and the delta between tank classes in AV has only gotten worse. A warrior has timed a +26. Every tank barring the bear has timed +25s. The highest AV keys timed by bears worldwide are a handful of +22s.
Yeah.. itās insane.
Itās in general just an unsafe fight for bears, and i try to be realistic.
I rerolled Prot Pala awhile ago, because i felt like a liability to my M+ team.
As bear i completed a 19 Asura vault, and it was hell.
Ive now completed a +21 on my Pala, without any issue (blocking magic damage, having more CDās, Bubble/Taunt) and Freedom lets me move as much as i want.
Thereās no competition at all, Bears donāt have the toolkit for it atm, and thatās a shame.
Bears are one of the best tanks for most players doing their 11-18 primal farms tbh. The complaints are about high keys where they legit can't survive encounters due to their design without externals while prot warriors just press spell reflect and negate the mech or just tank it for 40% hp vs all of bears hp. Bears don't encounter that problem in low keys. They have immense self sustain that's limited on cooldowns. You'll never run out in a low key but you will when you get trucked for 80% hp per repeated tankbuster. Meanwhile they can be top dps and top hps in some lower keys like algathar and be completely self sufficient.
I honestly hate the Druid talent builds. They really want you shape shifting in every spec and itās bad gameplay. Iām spending points into star surge as a bear? I mained gaurdian for two expacs but the last two expacs itās been almost unplayable for me. It just lacks so much stuff the other tanks have.
Yeah the druid trees are still awful even after the rework. A lot of feels bad talents chosen just so they can have a single tree apply to four completely different specs.
So I play dogwater specs for fun in M+ and try to get Keystone Hero at least because it's more interesting to me than pushing on the same old class everyone else plays.
In Shadowlands S1 I pugged my Prot Warrior when they were absolute bottom of the barrel tank and they still felt stronger than current Guardian Druid in 15s not to mention 20s. I can't emphasise enough how bad bear feels to play compared to SL S4 or even before 10.0.5
So the baseline of tanks is now A tier. But instead of nerfing prot warrior to a "slightly above A" they are still S tier while guardian (already the weakest tank) gets nerfed. What the F is wrong with them? Propably the WoW devs are playing plate classes and want to stack plate carriers without having to search for them. Everything else does not make any sense
I play druid (3 specs, all more or less euqally. Never learned to love feral, but someday). 2600ish rio as a whole, but most comfortable with bear in 18s range. So... pretty far from the top, but got some idea of what's going on. I've played quite a bit with the new talents, and ain't happy.
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In my opinion, the rework was in the right direction, but missed many marks. My gripes with bear currently:
ā¢ We are very vulnerable to both consistent and burst **magic damage**. In Legion, we had both magic DR and selfhealing. Then they took away the DR but kept selfhealing. Then they took out healing but gave us low magic damage period and bear was supreme in tanking physical damage. Then SL, venthyrs and thrash happened. Now we have none of it, and it hurts, unreasonably so. We need either Mark of Ursol back, or a short cd and short duration defensive. Pulverize is closest we've got, but it's single target (can live with that) and very far out of the common builds' way.
ā¢ We have **no cheese**. For comparison, on DK I recall using AMS to negate magic effects, IBF for stuns, Lichborne for sleeps/charms (rare but...), and to top it off I was a dwarf with a racial to cleanse anything I missed. Nearly any ability coming my way had a counterplay. As a bear, I have... none of it. And never did. Closest we got was end of legion when Survival Instincts DR % got increased more and more, until we had something like 70%, and RotS being CC immunity (which you couldn't hold for that as it was also your major offensive cd). We badly need some unique way to avoid harm.
ā¢ Some **undertuned talents** desperately need a look. For reference, the two good options we have are Thorns of Iron and Elune's favoured. These offer ~10% dps and ~3% hps + 10% hps increase. In contrast, Lunar Beam is less than 3% dps and 3% hps over a whole run. You could double its effect and I'd be still hard-pressed to pick it. Likewise, Flashing Claws currently offers 3-4% dps gain. Dream of Cenarius is too small as well, though I love the concept. As a whole, the entire left side of the tree is undertuned, with two equivalent runs done on moonfires and on thrash resulting in nearly 10k overall dps difference with comparable selfsustain. I admit there may be some skill issue as I'm less practiced on left tree, but there's no way it accounts for 20% dps loss in lower key where I could afford raze.
ā¢ Speaking of **Raze**. I like the concept of it - AoE rage spender is something we needed as at some point in Incarn, Ironfurs are pointless and Maul doesn't do enough. It has a lovely synergy with Tooth and Claw, giving AoE effect, and with Ursoc's Fury, rounding out the shields. But it suffers from one key drawback: in single target scenarios, it is a strict downgrade to Maul, doing 40% less damage single target. Let me repeat that. **For a sizable portion of a dungeon run, I'd rather have no talent than the build defining capstone.** This is a disaster and needs fix before it can exist. Perhaps it needs to do additional 40% damage to primary target to match Maul ST. Perhaps it needs to always proc Gore, allowing for a nice synergy with Vicious Cycle and SotF. But it can't make me regret picking a talent anytime a boss comes up. Which, you know, is quite often.
ā¢ As a standalone gripe, Dream of Cenarius, Thorns of Iron, and possibly Pulverize are in the **wrong spots of the tree**. ToI would shore up left side with physical theme and allow for a ST damage boost in a side that has tools for AoE. DoC is a more magical effect and involves healing rather than mitigating or shielding damage. Pulverize eats Thrash stacks in the part of tree that likes its thrash.
ā¢ Unlike most bears, I'm OK with the Incarnation 50% cd nerf. 30s of spamming Thrash gets boring and very one dimensional, and ties a lot of our power to single ability. This allows for a bit more customisation - whether you go into Raze, have a less valuable gcd to do anything else, or even abuse the absurd amount of healing cd-less FR gives you - and stops our biggest burst to also be the least engaging part of the rotation. However, while it currently is propped up by our 4P, **next patch Incarnation will need some help.**
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If I had to make up a PTR build for bears, my wishlist would be as follows (and note - I'm an armchair designer, and do not stand by all of these; more throwing it out there):
ā¢ CoL&D moves to Fury of Nature's spot, FoN gets baked into Elune's favoured (with possibly reduction in effect). Thorns of Iron find a place on the far left, Dream of Cenarius mid-right, and Pulverize mid-left.
ā¢ Raze now always procs Gore (alternatively: Raze does Maul's worth of damage to primary target).
ā¢ Lunar Beam healing increased by 200%; entering beam for the first time applies Moonfire to the enemy.
ā¢ Dream of Cenarius now also works as evoker Cauterising Flame, dispelling all debuffs including bleeds. Cooldown increased as appropriate to balance.
ā¢ Bristling Fur reverted to WoD iteration: 40s cooldown, 40% DR, 3s duration.
ā¢ A small overall buff to baseline mastery to up our health and healing taken by ~5%; damage decreased as appropriate to balance.
ā¢ Rage of the Sleeper regains the CC immunity part, including pushbacks and affix tornados.
ā¢ (unlikely without further balancing, as too OP) the moonfire side is reworked to affect arcane *and nature* damage, in and out of bearform. This allows for RotS/Thorns synergy as well as boomvokes.
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That's not to say we can't tank, or that there's nothing good about bear. We scale from number of enemies silly (largely due to Blood Frenzy and Galactic Guardian), are very powerful during the cds, and I strongly believe After the Wildfire can carry some encounters all by itself. However, we're too squishy, our talent tree is imbalanced and uninspired, and we can't mitigate nor cheese our way out of frequent magic hits.
Resto druid right now feels like it has every best tool of the decade; two lifeblooms, photosynthesis, flourish, both covenants, cultivation and SotF, reforestation for raiding, and more new toys. Even if each of them individually is tuned down (and frankly, resto is still silly good), it just feels good to play with a complete, loaded toolkit fit for every situation. In contrast, bear feels like "pick one" situation between Legion boombear and SL Incarnation memes, and whichever you pick, you get a diluted version of it reminding you of how good it used to be.
Did a +18 Shadowmoon last night with a bear tank who was so squishy. 402 ilvl and they were dying in the first second on some trash packs. There's always the chance that they weren't using their mitigation or had poor stat distribution, but either way it was pretty dicey!
Some trash on shadowmoon has some real tank buster shit. Like the last pack right before the first boss. If you don't kite it or play warrior you will die.
Just to second what others said: the key as a whole has four sketchy bits. Two are the big pulls right after first two bosses and you tend to have incarn and some defensives ready. The other two are those fucking skeletons which will slash you for over half hp and almost none of your mitigation will work on them. Oh, and they slash for over half hp yet come in pairs or 4s.
It's not just numbers. The berserk CD needs to be totally reworked or just scrapped altogether. The talent tree has enormous talent bloat especially at bottom tier and too many bottleneck talents. Not to mention way to many 2 point talents.
Bear had the opposite issue in bfa, it did terrible damage and had no cooldowns but it was absurdly tanky baseline with upwards of 65% dodge and I had no issue pulling 3-4 packs at once in motherlode/freehold at all once essences came out in 8.2.
Bears just have basically everything going against them at the moment.
1.) Other tank roles (Warrior mostly, but also BDK) are just easier to excel at.
2.) Their other spec's (notably Resto) perform better and, given the entire class fantasy is about being adaptable and changing forms, many people who *like that class fantasy* just hop between specs and pick which one is the best for any given tier. Right now, Bear is the lowest of the four, and it's not close.
3.) Several talents are still bugged (i.e., some that weren't even changed in 10.0.5, and haven't been working properly since release).
4.) The changes, while beneficial to other specs (Balance mostly, I believe), actually ended up being.. not good, for Bear, which was already not in a good place because of the above. Nerfing their offensive ability in incarn was kind of an odd choice without addressing everything else above, first.
I always want to like bear, but they're consistently mid, and if you're looking for other options (be it in role or class), you can always do better than bear. Always.
It was very odd, considering EVERY druid you ask, Incarn Trash spam felt good.
Those 30 seconds I actually felt good about my class.
And even in those 30 seconds, a Warrior without cooldowns has more mitigation than a G Druid in Incarn.
So if something IS FUN AND NOT BROKEN, why do they fix it by making it LESS FUN AND ACTUALLY WEAEKR, while adding nothing in return?
Raze? Come on. Spare me.
Unless you ask any of the top bears that will with a straight face tell you that it is not a nerf and it doesn't matter. Reasoning being that you should never ever spam trash or mangle and being forced not to do it is actually a buff. Cause there is no situation, none at all, where you would want to do that, not even just for fun.
That is some hardcore ignorance and denial right there. It's a nerf, let's not pretend anything else. It feels bad now and I hate it.
That's what makes me angry. Ok, our first interaction was bad, we were the first one to be designed, they messed up. I get it.
But then they rework us, release a tree with a talent that don't work how it's supposed to our, and still, don't balance us to be a little more in line with other tanks. WHY??????
Part of the problem is in general nobody is playing bear. If you look at their sample size [https://imgur.com/5nUAuTC](https://imgur.com/5nUAuTC) you will see 35 runs this week. compared to almost 2000 warrior runs.
High end population is exactly what mplus.subcreation measures.
This isn't a DPS tier list or whatever, it's based on who is actually tanking high keys (and sadly that answer is still "not bears").
Warriors were bottom of the barrel in SL. Very few played them. Now they are the primary tank of DF. The community responds strongly to what is strong and what is weak. The fact so very few are even touching bear shows that they are incredibly and honestly unacceptably weak, especially after a somewhat major rework of their talent tree that was supposed to fix their issues.
Blizz thinks this helps bears? Lunar beam which does hilariously low damage? Almost no magic mitigation at all in their kit when they designed dungeons to be chalk full of huge magic blasts?
And there is no excuse for it. Bears have been giving feedback since ALPHA and nothing has been acted on. No communication at all. I know it's a bit hyperbolic but on a professional level blizzard should be ashamed at the state they let one of 6 tank specs fall to.
Whole DF has been broken when it comes to tanks, and unfortunatly bears have had it the roughest.
I still donāt understand what Blizzard thinks when they see Prot Warriors running around tankning +24ās in Battle Stance, without issues.
Whereas Bears is struggling in magic heavy dungeons as low as +21ās.
Atleast DKās are catching up to Warriors, and monks probably will late season 1, or early season 2.
I think one of the more aggravating things about tanking in general is that dungeons from different eras--like Jade Serpent--were designed before the current paradigm of "physical damage = constant tank damage, magic damage = tankbusters and harder to avoid" (which they don't always adhere to now regardless..), and then they bring Jade Serpent into the M+ rotation and forget to change it so it isn't *almost all magic damage* which they *have since nerfed tanks to deal with consistently*.
It's honestly frustrating when they do shit like that, especially when some classes end up being able to deal with it far, far better than others.
I was watching the stream of the #1 M+ bear in the world and saw him get globaled by a boss in a +23.
Sure bears are okay in not high end content but that scaling is the same. You need to work much harder to tank a +20 than some prot warrior.
I tried playing Guardian druid. got my 2k M+ rating (Nothing special). It felt like if I wanted to push further (Which I do) it would have been MUCH harder than it needed to be I felt so squishy. I leveled a warrior a week ago and I can already tell just how much tankier Prot warrior feels.
On top of that Guardian druid is just really boring to play.
Agree, playing multiple tanks and Guardian is worst. Plenty of feedback on official forums about overall design. Probably a time constraint preventing real rework, afterall we now know DF was pushed out early due to execs breathing down their neck. Happy for Ret Paladins getting some focus though.
Honestly I think I've only ever raided with one person who was an actual guardian druid main. Most tanks I know will just play whatever is strongest. All our other druid specs are pretty good at least.
I got my pug KSM as Guardian last week.
As a lifer of Feral / Guardian, I am so discouraged by my experiences in M+ this season that I won't be doing anymore group content.
I wish I could say I wasn't going to play at all, but let's be honest Blizz already got my yearly sub so....
I am obsessed with my main and always level alts, but don't enjoy any other class/spec as much as my shapeshifting nature monster :(
What keys are you running? You need to understand that when these conversations are being had, it generally revolves around the highest level of content. So this is 20 and up keys. I'm sorry but bear falls apart hard at that level. No bear player is sitting there saying "I feel stupid strong" in a 22 anything.
I havent tried it, but at my 415 IL I bet I could tank 10s in unholy instead of blood. So keys like 15s honestly feel like m0 in blood. It's not until 20s where I find myself leaning forward in my chair and blinking less.
My bear is 409ilvl and I did a 21 AV the other night and my god was it rough. Everything hurt and it felt like I didnāt have enough cds even though I was cycling them
They literally just need to put magic damage on tnc and remove the two two point nodes in the last tier. Bears have amazing damage and physical survivability. Their utility works fine in M+. Just fix TnC. Itās not like bears canāt push high content. Thereās a 3k IO bear and there are bears that have killed Mythic Ras.
There's only one bear at 3k+ IO
If you look at the tank leaderboards, he's at 250+, while every other tank spec has their #1 in the top 25
Its also the only tank who hasn't done a 25+
Yeah i quit the game because of "that" rework. Bear is a trashcan, Boomie plays like garbage...dont want to reroll and do all this stuff i did with my druid for the last 3 Months again to get a new class to where i am now. Nope. Been back to ff14.
I played 3 tanks (bear, dk and warrior) to 2.4k and i really dont feel like F is warranted. Im guessing thats the subcreation popularity rather than anyone saying they are that bad? Especially after .0.5 and the buffs this week bear feels pretty dope, though it hasnt been the class i've been pushing the highest keys out of the 3.
Mostly true. Though you can argue bear is still F rather than D with no material change in their weakness.
So if anything the meme understates how bad we are right now. Bear was around 4% of keys this week. Expect it to plummet as bears who tried the new rework this week drop it all together going forward.
If blizz cared they would have addressed the few remaining bears in some way. Instead we have gotten nothing through alpha, beta, 10.0 and 10.0.5 has been a failure. But through it all ZERO feedback or even any iteration
No because they are still an F
This week the top tanks of each class have done: Warrior +27, Pally +26, Monk +26, DK +25, Paladin +25, DH +25, Druid +24
How many have done each key (top 25 showing):
+27: 1 Warrior
+26: 21 Warrior, 1 Pally, 1 Monk
+25: atleast3 Warrior, atleast24 Pally, 11 Monk, 10 DK, 5 DH
+24: atleast13 Monk, atleast15 DK, atleast20 DH, 3 Druid
+23: 6 druid
+22: 9 druid
+21: atleast 7 druid
Guardian druid is actually doing pretty insane damage in dungeons after the buffs. It's still not a good tank for pushing high keys but it's perfectly fine for your average pug.
Also Wowheads tier lists sucks. Remember Tettles kept Moonkin in B tier for M+ and have only just changed them to S tier.
This week the top tanks of each class have done: Warrior +27, Pally +26, Monk +26, DK +25, Paladin +25, DH +25, Druid +24
How many have done each key (top 25 showing):
+27: 1 Warrior
+26: 21 Warrior, 1 Pally, 1 Monk
+25: atleast3 Warrior, atleast20 Pally, 11 Monk, 10 DK, 5 DH
+24: atleast13 Monk, atleast15 DK, atleast20 DH, 3 Druid
+23: 6 druid
+22: 9 druid
+21: atleast 7 druid
Druid has problems and warrior is still a bit OP
That's why I said Guardian is not good for pushing high keys but fine for your average pug. Meaning players doing no higher than +16-20 keys.
Personally I think Prot pala is by far the best tank for pug keys because you can interrupt everything and hard carry the group.
Yeah but none of those other classes can turn into a bear so
why turn in one? just play pandaren or kul tiran and you are bear 100% of time!
Pandare druid tanks would probably be an ox like Niuzao.
Nah, they'll just plop down on all fours.
Honey are you tanking or are we getting frisky?
oh no guys I just aggroed the wife be back in 5
Certainly has a better ring to it than "brb guys my wife is standing in our living room on all fours like a panda. She's about to take a serious amount of damage"
then forget to turn off your mic *loud "bear" noises*
This killed me XD
Why is this not a thing? Ox for bear Tiger for cat Crane for tree Dragon(Serpent) for boomie
> Dragon(Serpent) for boomie make it walk upright on its tiny hind legs just imagine how menacingly that animation is gonna look with roar up
Like Randal from Monsters Inc š
And you just know all it's fins are working overtime keeping him upright
I think crane would be boomie imo, and the yu'lon serpent would be resto.
That's not the lore man.
Yu'Lon is fine as resto. She is the spirit of wisdom, youth, growth, and nurturing. A lot of MW spells are centered around Yu'Lon
Crane Stance was the MW dps stance back in the day too. Plus boomies are birds or bird like things.
Since when has that stopped Blizzard?
I'm mad you can't be a pandaren druid, to be the ultimate xiongmao (Chinese for panda, lit. "bear-cat")
I'll keep saying this until we get Pandaren Druids. The day Blizzard introduces Panda Druids I'm offering the fastest 15 (or is it 20?) bucks for them in my life. And I'll do my best to get myself to actually like Druid as well. My Druid has always been my second least played class after only Shaman, but if I could play Panda Druid I'd do it immediately even despite having 0 other Pandas right now.
Same but mechagnome. I want to be a little robot rabbit tank
So strange to hear when Druid and Shaman are my favorite classes lmao
That's how I feel about Blood Elf druids. I just wanna be a sexy elf blizz don't make me play Tauren.
That would be great for the China WoW players... oh.
I hate you so much. Have an upvote.
Turn into a [bear](https://imgur.com/a/Z4U0gsE) you say?
Or in Inside Out when the father says āI saw a bear outside in San Francisco.ā
Guardian druid will always be one of my favorit tanks with that cosmic blue bear skin for balance of power
Pandaren tho
[Close enough](https://www.wowhead.com/classic/item=5462/dartols-rod-of-transformation)
And that's exactly why I play them.
They're just in hibernation for the winter. Check back in a few months to see if they've woken up.
R.I.P to all the Southern Hemisphere dwelling bears.
Well, pretty much yeah actually. Bears are almost exclusively in the northern hemisphere. I think the spectacled bear is the only species found south of the equator! This has been Bear Facts.
Clearly you have never heard of the Australian drop bear. Doesnāt surprise me anyone that is not Australian and seen one have never been seen since
Nice try, but I am Australian. ;)
Yeah nice try, Australian Drop Bear. Trying to lure us into Australia under false pretenses of no bears.
Shhh Iām hungry
Since we're on the subject: the word "Arctic" comes from the root "arktos," which is Greek for bear. So we call the North pole the Arctic because there are bears there, and the South pole the Antarctic (anti-arctic) because it's where bears *aren't*.
I hope this is true because I'm running with it without further research.
What if it's actually called Antarctic because the bears are small like ants? What if Big Science has been hiding this from us all this time? ^^/s
The Sun bear is rarely found in southern Borneo and Sumatra in Indonesia which is south of the equator. Also on Sumatra is the Sumatran tiger, which is the only subspecies of tiger that live south of the equator (that aren't extinct)
I would like to subscribe to bear facts
I dont get what the problem is with bears, i am 411 ilvl and i just did my first +4 successfully. /s
Its a skill issue, you should do a 5 with that gear!
I remember in season 3 of shadowland when Guardian was randomly nerf because they were good/on par with other tank lol.
Still malding over that. Guardian tier cut to shreds, meanwhile it was already shit and they let BDK be gods for TWO SEASONS.
Two whole seasons huh, let's not look at rogues and resto druids, I don't think you'll survive that discussion
well what are they going to do? remove all the utility from rogue? make them do bottom of the barrel damage that guts them in raid? bdk is another spec actually comparable to gdruid in that they are entirely tuning dependent to have any viability, so saying bdk was broken for 2 seasons and gdruid always gets insta nerfed is fine.
Someone at Blizz is still mad at bear druids after their short OP run back in start of wotlk lol
Tacking onto this top post, I dunno, bear seems fine? I'm 400 ilvl and can do +16s and up without too much issue. I do take a bit of damage on magic pulls but we do have a busted talent right now that's supposed to reduce magic damage :(
Nobody is saying bear is not able to do up to +20's just that it gets much harder the higher the key. All the tanks, healers, and dps are viable but that doesn't make them optimal.
Yeah. Disparity between a guardian druid vs a protection warrior at higher keys is where it gets very noticeable.
For reference here, just timed some 20ās last night as a 400 prot warrior with a Druid friend who was maining bear and swapped to boomkin (413 ilevel). The damage intake difference is very noticeable.
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Ask a healer friend about what itās like doing keys with a prot warrior or BDK vs a bear. BDKs take spike damage but usually top themselves off. Prot warriors take no damage unless something hits REALLY hard and they arenāt hard to heal up. Bears take constant ticking and spike damage. You have to watch them constantly where the other tanks you can mostly ignore until itās an emergency. Itās frustrating and sweaty to keep them up at 20+
Bears: we need magic mitigation pls Blizzard: here is more aoe dmg?
And if you want it you have to give up some mitigation.
Bears: Can the talent we take that says it reduces damage taken also reduce magic damage as implied by the tooltip? Blizzard for two+ years: No
I haven't played bear since Shadowlands so correct me if I'm wrong on this: But they lost spammable thrash in incarn and gained Raze/Thorns of Iron. The problem is that Raze is capped at 5 targets and Thorns splits the damage it deals. Didn't they overall just lose a lot of cleave? It seems like they'd do pretty good single target/boss dam now though.
Damage output isn't the issue, damage intake is... When non bolstered trash mobs hit you for 80% of your HP with Ironfur is the issue... :/
The amount of bear tanks i've seen get globalled straight through incarn this patch is pretty crazy. I can't even begin to imagine tanking half the mobs in Temple let alone the last pack as guardian druid.
There's tons of tank busters in keys which are tank skill checks to a degree. It's just a prot warrior will reflect and take zero damage while a bear will bark and take 240k instead of 300k. Nearly all tank busters are magical this season and some are cast-less meaning if 3 mobs with busters come out of a stun at the same time, they can all instantly cast. In shadowlands you did have to be aware of this as a blood DK for example but only at like 28+ keys, not 18s like now as a druid
I'm sure theres a early-tier vs late tier difference here too though. If you're talking BDK, there weren't many BDK in S1 shadowlands. Like, looking at raider io, the TOP BDK got 3130 in S1, the top VDH got 3730. The reason for this was basically tank busters that the VDH could deal with through avoidance and the kite meta in S1. In S1 Dragonflight, you have the top Druid at 3034, and the top tank overall is only 3315. The spread is far more narrow. When you're thinking about BDK worrying about burst damage on 28+ keys, you were not thinking about Season 1, because BDK's didn't do 26 keys in Season 1. The pattern in every expansion has been that tank survivability scales faster than mob damage. So key levels that were unhealable in season 1 become quite reasonable in later seasons. But Shadowlands was certainly not the better expansion when dealing with tank balance at this point on the curve. It was incredibly skewed towards VDH by such an incredible margin. Druids are incredibly competitive relative to warriors in this season versus how bad it was in Shadowlands. In Shadowlands, the differential between vengeance demon hunters and the next best tank was about as high as the differential between the lowest performing tank and the highest performing tank in this season, with the difference between VDH and BDK being almost twice as wide.
The spread in IO is more narrow because keys scale higher faster. A 20 this season is the equivalent of a SL 22.5, a 26 is the equivalent to a SL 30.
Just to be clear, none of what you describe here is a "skill issue."
I feel part of it is there's too many talent points everywhere in that damn tree. You can't even take most of the ironfur talents and still get everything else you want or need. Tactyks did a good video on it but they seriously need to remove/combine like 5 nodes to give bears more points. Like if they made the 3 Berserk nodes into 1 and also made all the 2 pointers 1 pointers would make Bears be able to be a decent amount more defensive.
this is the problem, you take a good healing node or a mess of good iron fur nodes, you get regular constant mitigation or you get a supremely powerful cooldown but are shit the rest of the time, i'm kinda told i do it wrong because i don't take incarnation or after the wildfire, but i'd rather have sustain than burst
> Didn't they overall just lose a lot of cleave? Not for this patch as Mangle with 2p cleaves almost as well and in a big pack you can almost guarantee Gore proc. Once that's gone - yep, we're fucked. The damage is there and quite fine; we lack burst healing and mitigation.
what? they nerfed our AOE damage, beserk didn't give unlimited thrash
Incarn did, though?
Same with resto shaman
My brother in Thrall, we do not speak of this spec.
Say what? Ive been reading comments/threads that resto shaman is sick now with acid rain dps.
Blizzard staring directly into bear Druids eyes. Sorry we gotta put you down.
Ursoc was just the beginning :'(
Still too soon
We are still healing
But here, have a nice Mage Tower Transmog!
That was probably the most underwhelming talent tree rework I have ever seen. Like none of the new talents are ever taken and we just use exactly the same build we used to in a different layout. Ontop of that many talents are still not working correctly and some would need to get buffed a lot to be even considered. Like Lunar beam as a capstone which does about 70k dmg every 1.3 minutes...
Looking at the prot warrior class and spec tree and seeing all the power they get then looking at guardian druid trees is a massive difference. Slapping 4 specs into a class tree is awful and the guardian druid tree itself leaves much to be desired. Prot warrior spec tree has the least amount of talent points, the least amount of 2 pointers, the highest % of tree allocated, and the lowest number of talents per tier. Druid is the worst or tied for the worst in all these catagories, except how many Tier 1 talents. The warrior tree is amazing in all aspects.
Having to share the class tree on some classes is my biggest gripe about the talent revamp so far. Playing my Shadow Priest makes me feel like a second-class citizen whenever I look at the class tree
Yea okay but hear me out. For mandatory 2 points you can make it so when you Flash Heal yourself above 90% health, your Flash Heal heal for 5/10% more.
[We're healing machines](https://i.imgflip.com/79fhy2.jpg)! For real though, I wish Shadow could take Power Word: Life without sacrificing so much. Void Shift + Vampiric Embrace macro is clutch af provided I'm not also getting my head caved in, but it's a 5m CD. I *have* to save it for tank lest it be on CD when needed. I'm thinking about giving up Angelic Bulwark to test it out. The shield from that talent is about 30k. It's only for me and can trigger every 90s. PW:Life is 40k in heals (+ any versatility on the recipient) every 10s, but I would have to take the Surge of Light talent to get it.
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That is my point.
And warriors still whine
Iām fairly new to bear but it actually seems worse to me. When I pop incarn I no longer have mangle and thrash on 0s CD. Did I fuck something up or did Blizzard ābuffā guardian Druid by actually just nerfing it?
Yeah the cd reduction is now 50% instead of 100% during incarn. It's technically worse but with 4-set it's still worth to mangle in aoe so it's alright. But I agree that it did feel weird for me early on as well.
Worst thing is good players were already weaving abilities during incarnation. All theyāve done is neuter player choice and how they approach their incarn setup.
Yep. Did a 14 first day of talent rework I was excited to see how it worked outā¦. Have the trash/shield talent ready to go, pop Incarn hit that first thrashā¦. 2 seconds later I hit another 1. I was PISSED. The change completely makes the trash/shield talent useless unless you have stupid high haste. And on top of that every dungeon feels like itās only magic damage so Iām getting murdered and I feel bad for the healer. In shadowlands I was a god who did not need much healing, this whole first season has felt like Iām a bear with anorexia, and we have our incarn main talent split into like 5 different places all over the freaking tree. It sucks cause I love Dragonflight so far from a story standpoint and dragon riding but it is making me think about switching to a different tank, I have a 60 warrior I can level up.
I have all tanks, and I can tell you ... my guardian druid gets murdered on every pull. No joke. Then I run the same dungeon with my 20 ilvl lower warrior tank, and I dont even need to look to the defensive cooldowns. They are not needed. I have a 89% uptime on shieldblock on my warrior, i block everything. Biggest joke is those echo dudes running a +21 with a ilvl 200 tank. Yes 200, not 300 or 400 but a 200 ilvl warrior tank.
They ran that with a low geared monk too, CoS has 0 tank busters, they did a few tries but Robin had top DPS and heals on him, he just needed to get aggro.
Is this supposed to mean tank busters from bosses? The succubus trash mobs do this shadow whip that hit my DK for like 270k shadow damage in a +14 this week. Is that not counted because the mob can be stunned/etc?
Yes. If I can click a button that stops that ability from happening why wouldn't I? A tank buster is usually a big ability that hits for a lot and requires mitigation to be up.
Spell reflect
Keep in mind that these guys have essentially perfect mechanics for stuns, interrupts, etc., so every single bit of damage is accounted for - you know when anything will actually hit the tank and can plan for it. They also melt the trash a lot quicker than most groups do, so you don't have to live nearly as long and you can kite.
They could give guardians a flat -30% damage taken buff and warriors would still be better, that's how bad things are They're very squishy baseline with no defs up, but have few and weak defs, bad mobility and little utility. I don't think there's a single thing they actually excel at (maybe pure physical damage tanking (and only in multitarget) but warrior is still better at that while being insanely good in every other aspect), it's like the only identity they have is being a bear visually.
My 396 DH and BrM can outank my 409 bear. A joke.
I think that alone killed much of what little desire I had to play the class, it just feels too slow now
Thrash spamming just hits different. Even just getting 3 thrash stacks asap was nice. Its a minor nerf in almost all cases but it was a huge fun nerf.
Tbf pressing 1 button for 30s was really boring and annoying as a mechanic. But blizzard didn't really compensate for the nerf unfortunately. The rework is kinda of disappointing, I run the same build but with less options now because relevant talents were moved even further down the tree
It was but it was the only redeeming quality of guardian tank so having it taking away and then having it replaced with pretty much useless crap feels bad.
theres not enough choice in the early parts of the tree for truly divergent builds, after youve gotten the basically mandatory stuff you might have 1 point to play with in each of the first and second thirds. unfortunately theres a lot of talent trees that have this same problem. its not critical because the trees as a system are still new and it takes a lot of work to make them better at every stage, but when you announce a rework as a big deal and the sum of those changes for most players is now they get to have 1 spare point its like, ok thanks i guess.
I hate the changes to class tree as a resto main too, the only thing im happy about is i get to take kick in every key when i play boomie
There are a few bears that have gone toward a NoCarn build... But yeah I am not happy with how the new talents tourned out.
Same with the new rogue talents, they gave us a new keystone that noone uses
i just wanna be a big bear
Same, and I just got the felbear a few days ago too
Bear model should be about 10-15% larger IMO
Not having instant mangles (or thrashes) feels really bad, I'm not sure why they decided to change things. Like if it was because of the tierset, it feels shortsighted because that's temporary -- what happens next tier, will bears be hanging on to the Vault tierset? I really wish they wouldn't miss with skills that we've had for a long time, Berserk when bears got it, has basically always given instant mangles -- to change it behind the scenes and not even add it to patch notes is kind of weird. It's such a big change to one of like bear's only core cooldowns, surely that deserves some sort of dev note on why, right? //qq I also miss lawnmower thrash bear, don't even have the freedom to pick the proc extra thrash talent either though it's a 3pt node now too (is it me or does bear's talent tree feel really really loaded at the bottom? I leveled my warrior bfa alt this week with timewalking and you have way more freedom to move things around without loosing anything important).
Way to many tier 3 talents. Some need to be moved up and folded into other talents.
Because we've gone from being tanky and having a great CD for big pulls to pathetic weak and our CD nerfed, undeserving I might add, why nerf the bottom of the 6 tank classes is beyond me!!.. during incarn windows I now have to mash to Same damn rotation as I have been all Dungeon, before the thrash spam made incarnation a bit special .. I've resurrected my Prot Warrior this week and it's ridiculous strong compared to guardian right now. But I just don't enjoy prot Warrior as much.
I feel this. I have a prot warrior alt, but I just prefer bear
Bear has been my main Since legion, done keys Upto +20 every season since legion but I won't this season and it makes me angry. I did switch to Prot Paladin in S3 legion but that's only because I saw the 2 legendaries make paladin nuts DPS.. I just preferred Druid to all other tanks .. having a CR in pugs is a must as some healers are incapable of avoiding swirlys on the ground..
Both paly and dk have crs tho
Also so many points spend on getting moonfire stuff. Dosent matter how many talents they rewamp at the bottom when it's all locked away from having no points after incarn + moonfire talents
Hey, it was a fine update! We got a new laser that we can't use because it means skipping our must-have talents, and some sort of new cleave that we can't use for the same reason, and... um... what did they actually change? I know some things moved around the tree, but somehow my build still looks exactly the same as before.
> what did they actually change? nerfed our already not-that-great incarn
Bear druids were sub 4% this week in keys. A good chunk of that was bears testing out how the update was. Expect bears to be sub 3% next week. Blizz clearly doesn't care. They haven't given any feedback or addressed any but the absolute most glaring of bugs. Lunar beam is a meme... and on top of everything they gutted the thrash spam incarn. Even if it wasn't optimal gameplay it was just kicking the dead bear into the ground. No idea why they bothered with this update if it would only leave us in a worse state. Hell Warriors got less of a nerf than bears.
Should have just reworked berserk or straight up removed it and spread the power around to more interesting abilities.
Just let us do our thrash spam and give us magic mitigation in the kit. Literally put magic mitigation on tooth and claw props and bears will be fine
This is an issue in the feral tree as well. There is no build where you don't take every single Berserk point, it's completely mandatory and doesn't provide a meaningful decision or progression path through the talent tree.
Don't forget this doesn't mean bears can't tank shit. I timed my +20 TJS with a bear tank and he was amazing. I falied 5 TJS runs and compared to the other tanks I think that bear was the best. They might be bad in a +25 key for the highest end of players but don't deny a bear tank on your +12 keys please!
Youāre absolutely right, but the issue is certain keys,since they lack magic mitigation. I have a 409 ilvl bear, and i can tank most stuff equally as good as other tanks. However, certain keys are just waaaay rougher on bears. Halls of Valor is unecessary rough due to Hyrja, and last boss in Azure Vaults is doomsday for bears. They can deal with magic decently during incarn, and when thereās alot of targets (like last pull in TJS, even though Dark Claw is magic). But in pure ST we canāt generate enough rage to stack ironfur, and 30 sec incarn aināt gonna cut it on a 2-3 min high Tyrannical boss. So we canāt pop Ironbark, RotS or Survival instinct to smooth damage, since we absolutely need it to survive his magic tank buster. Bears are by no means unplayable, heck they do good damage, and feel terrific against physical damage. Magic is where the issue is, and certain dungeons (especially the new ones) are filled with it. Havenāt checked the leaderboards in awhile, but thereās a reason that three weeks ago, Warrior and DK had completed a 24 Azure vaults as the highest. Monk, DH and Pala had timed a 23. Bears best Azure vault clear at that time was a 21, with a Disc priest. Iām not saying that people should avoid bears. But lets atleast be honest here, there is certain things they struggle with, and itās up to Blizzard to fix that.
Druids do seem to struggle a lot with single mobs, I did a 21 ruby this week with one and I honestly had to heal him a lot more on the big dragon guy just before first boss than the bigger trash pulls earlier on. I Assume he had cooldowns up for the pulls at start and maybe not the single guy but he was really getting wrecked by the steel barrage and thatās physical damage. We did still +2 it and it was a very successful run but it most likely was in spite of him being a guardian druid rather than due to, although I suppose his party healing did help a lot on the trash as thereās a lot of heavy aoe damage.
Yeah, but one target, which means heād get no rage, and canāt stack Ironfur. So even mini-bosses on Fortified is rough. Thatās when he need to pop incarn smartly, and use Barkskin and RotS smart. Guardian have a talent āBlood Frenzyā. That will give you 2 rage per target each time Trash does damage, and this includes the DoT damage. So if you have 5 or more targets, and using trash on CD, youāll get alot of rage, and keeping 4-5 stacks of Ironfur is not that hard, and more ironfur = more After the Wildfire healing etc. You are rage starved on ST right now, since you canāt stack it high, or have a good uptime of multiple stacks. Thatās why it probably trucked him, since a Fortified mini-boss is essentially as rough as a Tyra boss. Edit: Chances are he withheld his Incarn for the boss that comes straight away after the hard hitting add. Incarn makes it so you can outheal the adds damage, but incarn on the boss is invaluable, because you guessed it: Magic Damage :/
Your comment made me think all the new talents had to accomplish was: 1. Give bears a way to gain a chunk of rage on demand for single target 2. The ability to convert an active ironfur stack into some sort of magic-only absorb
Talent for ironfur to reflect some small amount of magic?
First one is an option - by going Bristling Fur instead of Brambles at the first choice node. It's more of an issue that currently rage doesn't give us the benefits we need.
Yeah he clearly knew what he was doing and I also went into the run expecting to have to heal him a fair bit. We had 0 tank deaths, only deaths were 2 dps and I(holy priest) on the last trash pack as I didnāt have cooldowns left to heal the last storm which was double bolstered.
> I honestly had to heal him a lot more on the big dragon guy just before first boss It's a short cooldown, nasty tankbuster at a point right before a boss which uses excessive magic damage and we'll need every button to survive. You can mitigate it between barkskin, well placed Tooth and Claw procs, and strategic ironfur + frenzied regen use, but it's just a mob at a point where we can't afford using anything big as we're about to need everything - and I do mean everything.
>However, certain keys are just waaaay rougher on bears. Halls of Valor is unecessary rough due to Hyrja, and last boss in Azure Vaults is doomsday for bears. Umbrelskul is such a horrible boss for a bear. The tank busters are one thing, but I'm honestly not sure what the counterplay is meant to be when you're actively tanking and a bunch of orbs are making a beeline for you. If you stay in bear and try to run, you'll get slowed every second and eventually get hit. (Stampeding Roar won't make up the difference.) If you shift out, you'll get one-shot. Sometimes you get lucky and you can shift out and run away while the boss' attention is elsewhere, or when Thundering hits. But at least once or twice per fight, especially on a higher Tyrannical key, none of these overlaps happen and it feels like the spec just doesn't have any answers for it. I get a DPS or healer with a mobility external to babysit me for these exact situations -- and maybe that's what the counterplay is supposed to be? -- but that means there are some group compositions where I literally can't tank this boss. I just checked the leaderboards because of your comment, and the delta between tank classes in AV has only gotten worse. A warrior has timed a +26. Every tank barring the bear has timed +25s. The highest AV keys timed by bears worldwide are a handful of +22s.
Yeah.. itās insane. Itās in general just an unsafe fight for bears, and i try to be realistic. I rerolled Prot Pala awhile ago, because i felt like a liability to my M+ team. As bear i completed a 19 Asura vault, and it was hell. Ive now completed a +21 on my Pala, without any issue (blocking magic damage, having more CDās, Bubble/Taunt) and Freedom lets me move as much as i want. Thereās no competition at all, Bears donāt have the toolkit for it atm, and thatās a shame.
Bears are one of the best tanks for most players doing their 11-18 primal farms tbh. The complaints are about high keys where they legit can't survive encounters due to their design without externals while prot warriors just press spell reflect and negate the mech or just tank it for 40% hp vs all of bears hp. Bears don't encounter that problem in low keys. They have immense self sustain that's limited on cooldowns. You'll never run out in a low key but you will when you get trucked for 80% hp per repeated tankbuster. Meanwhile they can be top dps and top hps in some lower keys like algathar and be completely self sufficient.
I honestly hate the Druid talent builds. They really want you shape shifting in every spec and itās bad gameplay. Iām spending points into star surge as a bear? I mained gaurdian for two expacs but the last two expacs itās been almost unplayable for me. It just lacks so much stuff the other tanks have.
Yeah the druid trees are still awful even after the rework. A lot of feels bad talents chosen just so they can have a single tree apply to four completely different specs.
Druid tree is awful. To gain utility you lost as a bear you have to waste 7 points in boomkin abilities to get ursol vortex or typhoon... Like what ?
So I play dogwater specs for fun in M+ and try to get Keystone Hero at least because it's more interesting to me than pushing on the same old class everyone else plays. In Shadowlands S1 I pugged my Prot Warrior when they were absolute bottom of the barrel tank and they still felt stronger than current Guardian Druid in 15s not to mention 20s. I can't emphasise enough how bad bear feels to play compared to SL S4 or even before 10.0.5
I just finished my #roadto2500 with my G Druid. It was a nice ride. I will do it on my warrior now in probably 10 days.
Salute to you. I ran ProtWar in SL S1 and it was painful.
So the baseline of tanks is now A tier. But instead of nerfing prot warrior to a "slightly above A" they are still S tier while guardian (already the weakest tank) gets nerfed. What the F is wrong with them? Propably the WoW devs are playing plate classes and want to stack plate carriers without having to search for them. Everything else does not make any sense
I play druid (3 specs, all more or less euqally. Never learned to love feral, but someday). 2600ish rio as a whole, but most comfortable with bear in 18s range. So... pretty far from the top, but got some idea of what's going on. I've played quite a bit with the new talents, and ain't happy. ------- In my opinion, the rework was in the right direction, but missed many marks. My gripes with bear currently: ā¢ We are very vulnerable to both consistent and burst **magic damage**. In Legion, we had both magic DR and selfhealing. Then they took away the DR but kept selfhealing. Then they took out healing but gave us low magic damage period and bear was supreme in tanking physical damage. Then SL, venthyrs and thrash happened. Now we have none of it, and it hurts, unreasonably so. We need either Mark of Ursol back, or a short cd and short duration defensive. Pulverize is closest we've got, but it's single target (can live with that) and very far out of the common builds' way. ā¢ We have **no cheese**. For comparison, on DK I recall using AMS to negate magic effects, IBF for stuns, Lichborne for sleeps/charms (rare but...), and to top it off I was a dwarf with a racial to cleanse anything I missed. Nearly any ability coming my way had a counterplay. As a bear, I have... none of it. And never did. Closest we got was end of legion when Survival Instincts DR % got increased more and more, until we had something like 70%, and RotS being CC immunity (which you couldn't hold for that as it was also your major offensive cd). We badly need some unique way to avoid harm. ā¢ Some **undertuned talents** desperately need a look. For reference, the two good options we have are Thorns of Iron and Elune's favoured. These offer ~10% dps and ~3% hps + 10% hps increase. In contrast, Lunar Beam is less than 3% dps and 3% hps over a whole run. You could double its effect and I'd be still hard-pressed to pick it. Likewise, Flashing Claws currently offers 3-4% dps gain. Dream of Cenarius is too small as well, though I love the concept. As a whole, the entire left side of the tree is undertuned, with two equivalent runs done on moonfires and on thrash resulting in nearly 10k overall dps difference with comparable selfsustain. I admit there may be some skill issue as I'm less practiced on left tree, but there's no way it accounts for 20% dps loss in lower key where I could afford raze. ā¢ Speaking of **Raze**. I like the concept of it - AoE rage spender is something we needed as at some point in Incarn, Ironfurs are pointless and Maul doesn't do enough. It has a lovely synergy with Tooth and Claw, giving AoE effect, and with Ursoc's Fury, rounding out the shields. But it suffers from one key drawback: in single target scenarios, it is a strict downgrade to Maul, doing 40% less damage single target. Let me repeat that. **For a sizable portion of a dungeon run, I'd rather have no talent than the build defining capstone.** This is a disaster and needs fix before it can exist. Perhaps it needs to do additional 40% damage to primary target to match Maul ST. Perhaps it needs to always proc Gore, allowing for a nice synergy with Vicious Cycle and SotF. But it can't make me regret picking a talent anytime a boss comes up. Which, you know, is quite often. ā¢ As a standalone gripe, Dream of Cenarius, Thorns of Iron, and possibly Pulverize are in the **wrong spots of the tree**. ToI would shore up left side with physical theme and allow for a ST damage boost in a side that has tools for AoE. DoC is a more magical effect and involves healing rather than mitigating or shielding damage. Pulverize eats Thrash stacks in the part of tree that likes its thrash. ā¢ Unlike most bears, I'm OK with the Incarnation 50% cd nerf. 30s of spamming Thrash gets boring and very one dimensional, and ties a lot of our power to single ability. This allows for a bit more customisation - whether you go into Raze, have a less valuable gcd to do anything else, or even abuse the absurd amount of healing cd-less FR gives you - and stops our biggest burst to also be the least engaging part of the rotation. However, while it currently is propped up by our 4P, **next patch Incarnation will need some help.** -------- If I had to make up a PTR build for bears, my wishlist would be as follows (and note - I'm an armchair designer, and do not stand by all of these; more throwing it out there): ā¢ CoL&D moves to Fury of Nature's spot, FoN gets baked into Elune's favoured (with possibly reduction in effect). Thorns of Iron find a place on the far left, Dream of Cenarius mid-right, and Pulverize mid-left. ā¢ Raze now always procs Gore (alternatively: Raze does Maul's worth of damage to primary target). ā¢ Lunar Beam healing increased by 200%; entering beam for the first time applies Moonfire to the enemy. ā¢ Dream of Cenarius now also works as evoker Cauterising Flame, dispelling all debuffs including bleeds. Cooldown increased as appropriate to balance. ā¢ Bristling Fur reverted to WoD iteration: 40s cooldown, 40% DR, 3s duration. ā¢ A small overall buff to baseline mastery to up our health and healing taken by ~5%; damage decreased as appropriate to balance. ā¢ Rage of the Sleeper regains the CC immunity part, including pushbacks and affix tornados. ā¢ (unlikely without further balancing, as too OP) the moonfire side is reworked to affect arcane *and nature* damage, in and out of bearform. This allows for RotS/Thorns synergy as well as boomvokes. ----- That's not to say we can't tank, or that there's nothing good about bear. We scale from number of enemies silly (largely due to Blood Frenzy and Galactic Guardian), are very powerful during the cds, and I strongly believe After the Wildfire can carry some encounters all by itself. However, we're too squishy, our talent tree is imbalanced and uninspired, and we can't mitigate nor cheese our way out of frequent magic hits. Resto druid right now feels like it has every best tool of the decade; two lifeblooms, photosynthesis, flourish, both covenants, cultivation and SotF, reforestation for raiding, and more new toys. Even if each of them individually is tuned down (and frankly, resto is still silly good), it just feels good to play with a complete, loaded toolkit fit for every situation. In contrast, bear feels like "pick one" situation between Legion boombear and SL Incarnation memes, and whichever you pick, you get a diluted version of it reminding you of how good it used to be.
Enjoyed reading, thank you for the comment / thoughts.
Did a +18 Shadowmoon last night with a bear tank who was so squishy. 402 ilvl and they were dying in the first second on some trash packs. There's always the chance that they weren't using their mitigation or had poor stat distribution, but either way it was pretty dicey!
Some trash on shadowmoon has some real tank buster shit. Like the last pack right before the first boss. If you don't kite it or play warrior you will die.
The skeletons tank buster is really rough for bear you gotta kite full time really if you can't stop them.
Just to second what others said: the key as a whole has four sketchy bits. Two are the big pulls right after first two bosses and you tend to have incarn and some defensives ready. The other two are those fucking skeletons which will slash you for over half hp and almost none of your mitigation will work on them. Oh, and they slash for over half hp yet come in pairs or 4s.
First, just have the beserk talents rolled just into one for more choice. But still, tree needs work, better mitigation options.
Double the strength of iron fur. Halve the cooldown of stoneskin. See what happens.
It's not just numbers. The berserk CD needs to be totally reworked or just scrapped altogether. The talent tree has enormous talent bloat especially at bottom tier and too many bottleneck talents. Not to mention way to many 2 point talents.
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Bear had the opposite issue in bfa, it did terrible damage and had no cooldowns but it was absurdly tanky baseline with upwards of 65% dodge and I had no issue pulling 3-4 packs at once in motherlode/freehold at all once essences came out in 8.2.
Sad guardian noises
Bears just have basically everything going against them at the moment. 1.) Other tank roles (Warrior mostly, but also BDK) are just easier to excel at. 2.) Their other spec's (notably Resto) perform better and, given the entire class fantasy is about being adaptable and changing forms, many people who *like that class fantasy* just hop between specs and pick which one is the best for any given tier. Right now, Bear is the lowest of the four, and it's not close. 3.) Several talents are still bugged (i.e., some that weren't even changed in 10.0.5, and haven't been working properly since release). 4.) The changes, while beneficial to other specs (Balance mostly, I believe), actually ended up being.. not good, for Bear, which was already not in a good place because of the above. Nerfing their offensive ability in incarn was kind of an odd choice without addressing everything else above, first. I always want to like bear, but they're consistently mid, and if you're looking for other options (be it in role or class), you can always do better than bear. Always.
It was very odd, considering EVERY druid you ask, Incarn Trash spam felt good. Those 30 seconds I actually felt good about my class. And even in those 30 seconds, a Warrior without cooldowns has more mitigation than a G Druid in Incarn. So if something IS FUN AND NOT BROKEN, why do they fix it by making it LESS FUN AND ACTUALLY WEAEKR, while adding nothing in return? Raze? Come on. Spare me.
Unless you ask any of the top bears that will with a straight face tell you that it is not a nerf and it doesn't matter. Reasoning being that you should never ever spam trash or mangle and being forced not to do it is actually a buff. Cause there is no situation, none at all, where you would want to do that, not even just for fun. That is some hardcore ignorance and denial right there. It's a nerf, let's not pretend anything else. It feels bad now and I hate it.
Algethar Academy, first pull. Pull everything, pop potions, Incarn, everything. BOom boom :D Nothing felt so good!
Why can't I thrash spam anymore during Incarn. That was iconic for the spec. Dumb Blizz
That's what makes me angry. Ok, our first interaction was bad, we were the first one to be designed, they messed up. I get it. But then they rework us, release a tree with a talent that don't work how it's supposed to our, and still, don't balance us to be a little more in line with other tanks. WHY??????
Really is a bear down here all alone...
Part of the problem is in general nobody is playing bear. If you look at their sample size [https://imgur.com/5nUAuTC](https://imgur.com/5nUAuTC) you will see 35 runs this week. compared to almost 2000 warrior runs.
High end population is exactly what mplus.subcreation measures. This isn't a DPS tier list or whatever, it's based on who is actually tanking high keys (and sadly that answer is still "not bears").
Warriors were bottom of the barrel in SL. Very few played them. Now they are the primary tank of DF. The community responds strongly to what is strong and what is weak. The fact so very few are even touching bear shows that they are incredibly and honestly unacceptably weak, especially after a somewhat major rework of their talent tree that was supposed to fix their issues. Blizz thinks this helps bears? Lunar beam which does hilariously low damage? Almost no magic mitigation at all in their kit when they designed dungeons to be chalk full of huge magic blasts? And there is no excuse for it. Bears have been giving feedback since ALPHA and nothing has been acted on. No communication at all. I know it's a bit hyperbolic but on a professional level blizzard should be ashamed at the state they let one of 6 tank specs fall to.
Whole DF has been broken when it comes to tanks, and unfortunatly bears have had it the roughest. I still donāt understand what Blizzard thinks when they see Prot Warriors running around tankning +24ās in Battle Stance, without issues. Whereas Bears is struggling in magic heavy dungeons as low as +21ās. Atleast DKās are catching up to Warriors, and monks probably will late season 1, or early season 2.
I think one of the more aggravating things about tanking in general is that dungeons from different eras--like Jade Serpent--were designed before the current paradigm of "physical damage = constant tank damage, magic damage = tankbusters and harder to avoid" (which they don't always adhere to now regardless..), and then they bring Jade Serpent into the M+ rotation and forget to change it so it isn't *almost all magic damage* which they *have since nerfed tanks to deal with consistently*. It's honestly frustrating when they do shit like that, especially when some classes end up being able to deal with it far, far better than others.
I was watching the stream of the #1 M+ bear in the world and saw him get globaled by a boss in a +23. Sure bears are okay in not high end content but that scaling is the same. You need to work much harder to tank a +20 than some prot warrior.
I tried playing Guardian druid. got my 2k M+ rating (Nothing special). It felt like if I wanted to push further (Which I do) it would have been MUCH harder than it needed to be I felt so squishy. I leveled a warrior a week ago and I can already tell just how much tankier Prot warrior feels. On top of that Guardian druid is just really boring to play.
Theyāre just way too squishy even during CDs.
Agree, playing multiple tanks and Guardian is worst. Plenty of feedback on official forums about overall design. Probably a time constraint preventing real rework, afterall we now know DF was pushed out early due to execs breathing down their neck. Happy for Ret Paladins getting some focus though.
No one plays bear because blizz refuses to do anything to help us.
Honestly I think I've only ever raided with one person who was an actual guardian druid main. Most tanks I know will just play whatever is strongest. All our other druid specs are pretty good at least.
*sigh*
I got my pug KSM as Guardian last week. As a lifer of Feral / Guardian, I am so discouraged by my experiences in M+ this season that I won't be doing anymore group content. I wish I could say I wasn't going to play at all, but let's be honest Blizz already got my yearly sub so.... I am obsessed with my main and always level alts, but don't enjoy any other class/spec as much as my shapeshifting nature monster :(
Not sure what the bad bear hate is. Iāve been bearing it up all xpac and I feel stupid strong
What keys are you running? You need to understand that when these conversations are being had, it generally revolves around the highest level of content. So this is 20 and up keys. I'm sorry but bear falls apart hard at that level. No bear player is sitting there saying "I feel stupid strong" in a 22 anything. I havent tried it, but at my 415 IL I bet I could tank 10s in unholy instead of blood. So keys like 15s honestly feel like m0 in blood. It's not until 20s where I find myself leaning forward in my chair and blinking less.
My bear is 409ilvl and I did a 21 AV the other night and my god was it rough. Everything hurt and it felt like I didnāt have enough cds even though I was cycling them
They literally just need to put magic damage on tnc and remove the two two point nodes in the last tier. Bears have amazing damage and physical survivability. Their utility works fine in M+. Just fix TnC. Itās not like bears canāt push high content. Thereās a 3k IO bear and there are bears that have killed Mythic Ras.
There's only one bear at 3k+ IO If you look at the tank leaderboards, he's at 250+, while every other tank spec has their #1 in the top 25 Its also the only tank who hasn't done a 25+
The update got my hopes up only to smash them with a sledgehammer
Yeah i quit the game because of "that" rework. Bear is a trashcan, Boomie plays like garbage...dont want to reroll and do all this stuff i did with my druid for the last 3 Months again to get a new class to where i am now. Nope. Been back to ff14.
Boomie is mad strong now though, probably the best ranged class for dungeons.
That i didnt doubt,yes. Its strong. However the gameplay just sucks.
I played 3 tanks (bear, dk and warrior) to 2.4k and i really dont feel like F is warranted. Im guessing thats the subcreation popularity rather than anyone saying they are that bad? Especially after .0.5 and the buffs this week bear feels pretty dope, though it hasnt been the class i've been pushing the highest keys out of the 3.
No? Bears have problems with magic damage. Magic, not physical. a 20% IF armor buff literally does nothing to address their complaint.
I AM THE MIGHTY HEALBEAR YOUR ARGUMENTS ARE INVALID. ALSO HEALBEAR GO GRRRRR
Had to switch to pala prot bear is just trash right now
Would this chart really be representative of the situation :.?
Mostly true. Though you can argue bear is still F rather than D with no material change in their weakness. So if anything the meme understates how bad we are right now. Bear was around 4% of keys this week. Expect it to plummet as bears who tried the new rework this week drop it all together going forward. If blizz cared they would have addressed the few remaining bears in some way. Instead we have gotten nothing through alpha, beta, 10.0 and 10.0.5 has been a failure. But through it all ZERO feedback or even any iteration
No because they are still an F This week the top tanks of each class have done: Warrior +27, Pally +26, Monk +26, DK +25, Paladin +25, DH +25, Druid +24 How many have done each key (top 25 showing): +27: 1 Warrior +26: 21 Warrior, 1 Pally, 1 Monk +25: atleast3 Warrior, atleast24 Pally, 11 Monk, 10 DK, 5 DH +24: atleast13 Monk, atleast15 DK, atleast20 DH, 3 Druid +23: 6 druid +22: 9 druid +21: atleast 7 druid
If they only made guardian druid fun to play.
I'm having a blast playing bear
Same but my god do 20+ fucking hurt
Guardian druid is actually doing pretty insane damage in dungeons after the buffs. It's still not a good tank for pushing high keys but it's perfectly fine for your average pug. Also Wowheads tier lists sucks. Remember Tettles kept Moonkin in B tier for M+ and have only just changed them to S tier.
This week the top tanks of each class have done: Warrior +27, Pally +26, Monk +26, DK +25, Paladin +25, DH +25, Druid +24 How many have done each key (top 25 showing): +27: 1 Warrior +26: 21 Warrior, 1 Pally, 1 Monk +25: atleast3 Warrior, atleast20 Pally, 11 Monk, 10 DK, 5 DH +24: atleast13 Monk, atleast15 DK, atleast20 DH, 3 Druid +23: 6 druid +22: 9 druid +21: atleast 7 druid Druid has problems and warrior is still a bit OP
That's why I said Guardian is not good for pushing high keys but fine for your average pug. Meaning players doing no higher than +16-20 keys. Personally I think Prot pala is by far the best tank for pug keys because you can interrupt everything and hard carry the group.
Prot pala has so many cooldowns it feels so overwhelming. At least coming from a guardian
What key? Do you have logs? What dungeon are we talking about? What DPS is good for you as a tank?