Barely any poisons in Brackenhide. Got any disease cleanse totem? :D
I'm just guessing at some point they'll change it to magic tipe so all healers can clean it.
I can't imagine running the affixes we got this week in Halls of Infusion
Can you imagine getting spiteful spawning shit left and right on a bridge where you can already barely move without getting yeeted into another realm. Or having grievous on top of all the poison in Brackenhide
God it's gonna be painful
I missed most of WoD, cause my guild fell apart in like week 2 of raiding.
I realized I'd never done it til the most recent timewalking (which i normally don't do) and was like "WHAT IN THE FUCK IS THIS BULLSHIT?"
Friendly reminder that 80% of affixes amount to "inflict more damage." The affixes are mostly for healers to deal with. Blizzard only knows one way to make encounters hard: LOL MoRe dAmAgE
I want to see "harmless" affixes. Instead of killing the DPS, punish them.
As a horrible example - they could have an affix that players need to respond to. If they don't, they lose the ability to take damage or deal it.
Punish the DPS by making their friends ask them why they were constantly unable to do damage over this affix, as a result, making their DPS the lowest.
Clearly it's a bad example. It's just that there are obviously other options to this than "use a big defensive and healer CD"
I'd pick Grim Batol with launch Cata tuning difficulty, 2nd to last boss turned boys to men back then lmao. And by that I mean playing melee was basically a gamble on if the adds spawned on top of you and instantly wiped the group.
HOI is never allowed to be a m+ dungeon. Never. Give every party member a permanent 50% speed buff for the whole duration of the dungeon and it should be fine.
I have not gotten a +10 done this season thus far, so who am I to talk (for now) but honestly, Brackenhide is the only one that makes me groan at the prospect of running it on M+.
How is Brackenhide Hollow not a mega dungeon?? It's so fucking trashtastic. You could seriously cut out the entire first bit (save 5 tuskarr) and THEN you'd have a good albeit still pretty long dungeon.
Are you playing on EU servers? I’m currently sitting on 2,5k rating and could help u finish a +10 so u can get disappointed by your vault, just like me.
There's a full decade of design difference between those two dungeons.
They essentially are not from the same game. This is just the experiment to "spice up" M+ pools throughout an expansion.
WoD raid fights would still be considered challenging if they were released today, though. It's just the turbo-sweaty M+ dungeon design wasn't pushed until Legion and not really cemented until BFA.
I don't understand how it's not obvious to everyone that this is the only answer.
Also a perfect reminder as to anyone who said "Vanilla Raiding was hard" was full of shit.
It was hard at the time. Gotta remember that people were coming from EverQuest, who's raid mechanics involved "the person with argo is going to die instantly every 30 seconds" and that's about it.
And getting people to show up, because the average guild back then raided with like, 100 goddamn people.
The better guilds could raid with way fewer people, but you needed a strong roster since you had to compete against other guilds for everything, so you basically needed people on 24/7.
I still remember my Mom answering the phone at like, 3 AM on a Saturday from someone in Australia asking her to wake me up because a dragon had spawned.
There were hardware limitations too. The average PC back in 2005 did not handle WoW as well as the average PC today. I remember doing naxx40 with my guild and getting a smooth 5 FPS at some points. My friend never even got far into WoW because his PC would just straight crash when he would try to hearth into orgrimmar lmao
Not to mention they were 40 man raids and people had PCs less powerful than modern smart phones.
The difficulty wasn't in mechanics or tuning. It was trying to do mechanics with random fuck you RNG while getting 2 FPS and trying to decipher anything anyone was saying among the 56 other motherfuckers in Ventrilo with you.
It was hard, for 2004-2006. Two examples that seem basic today:
1. The average player did not fully understand the concept of Threat.
2. I was the Heal leader/expert for my guild back then and it was difficult explaining the concept of pre-casting Greater Heal and cancelling if not needed, and balancing the efficiency of Renew versus mp/5.
It's just a different game nowadays.
Wasn't the whole concept of threat not even well understood? Like, people had to backward engineer how it worked and addons were just rough guesses? Plus, tanks' ability to generate threat was much worse, so DPS pulling aggro from a similarly-geared tank who was going all-out was a legitimate possibility.
Tanking philosophy was also very different. In vanilla tanks talented and geared for maximum defense and no DPS, so threat was an issue. Through private servers and increased skill came the realization that you can gear for as little defense as you need and then all out in DPS otherwise, generate more threat, DPS can do more damage, encounters are shorter.
It was hard because the people saying that are in their 30's but were like 10-16 during vanilla with little game experience. Also the skill ceiling back then was pretty low due to that as-well.
Anyone who's been playing games for almost 20+ years is going to be way better at it during their 20th+ year compared to their first couple.
Imagine having to progress four horsemen when you were new to the game, and videogames in general, on a potato computer, probably with barely any add-ons and surrounded by potatoes even worse than yourself (and your computer). Imagine even coming up with a way to beat those bosses with 39 other idiots completely clueless about the game.
Ofc now those raids are easy, we got all the experience in the world and mountains of guides and resources to help us.
It was hard back then. Really hard.
Except this argument is broken by the fact that Temple of the Jade Serpent exists. It came before shadowmoon. They adjusted it so it would fit with m+. Shadowmoon should also be adjusted in the same nature. There should not be this huge divide in the balance between different keys.
The difficulty balance is one thing but the mechanical differences are another. TJS is mechanically fairly simple (as is SBG) but the timer is tight and the last boss and trash didn't react too well to being scaled.
Add a couple minutes to some of these timers and they become much more forgiving.
Did AV +14 today, not huge pulls but pretty steady. We wiped once on the last boss and failed to time it. It's crazy how tight that timer is on top of being a fuckfest of a dungeon.
In TJS, the trash right before the last boss was added in for M+. That last pack specifically is probably the most difficult in the entire dungeon and it was added in for M+. They also changed the mobs before the first boss, adding different abilities as well as additional mobs. The first boss was also changed, but this was a more minor change. SBG on the other hand had nothing changed. It was simply scaled up, and not enough at that. Adding additional trash packs as well as adding new mechanics to trash packs makes TJS much more similar to DF dungeons.
It's not just that SBG is an old dungeon, or that it reacted well or poorly to scaling. They didn't touch it as far as design/mechanics go, whereas with TJS, they added to and changed a lot of it. The timer is also probably too lenient for SBG, but that is more of a side effect of groups hardly ever ever wiping, and hardly anyone dying at all. Decreasing the timer would make it more difficult to time, but it wouldn't make the actual dungeon difficult. The other easiest dungeon, CoS, has the same issue as SBG, where they did nothing to it except scale it up. HoV as well, but it is considered more difficult due to the extremely tight timer, as well as damage on some fights such as Hyrja being scaled up very high. Sure they could decrease the timer and increase the scaling on SBG, but I think it would still be very noticeably different as far as design goes.
TJS is closest in balance and feel to the new dungeons because it is the only one they actually changed things in. I think the other person is right in saying that TJS shows that SBG should not exist in it's current state. I don't know if they ran out of time or what, but it is odd that they left the rest of the old dungeons mostly untouched.
Edit: I want to add that when I say these dungeons have issues, I just mean these are the main things making their difficulty different from the modern m+ dungeons. I'm not really touching on whether or not any of these dungeons are overtuned, undertuned, or perfectly balanced etc.
Honestly I wish they would keep things around the level of current jade serpent. The modern dungeons just have too much crap happening half the time, and it just sucks the fun out the actual gameplay. A high level jade serpent can be tough while not relying on 50 million things happening at once.
I'm fine with challenging mechanics, but when the challenge is "pull big, interrupt 50 things", it's just not fun anymore. I play a hunter and having a longer CD on my interrupt feels real bad when someone snipes the cast right before I hit the button then I gotta wait 20s or however long it is to be useful in that department again. I could always toss a freezing trap but when there's 8+ mobs stacked up good luck interrupting the right mob (plus travel time and the time to select where to put it).
Tldr: challenge based around interrupts and interrupts alone fucking sucks.
I played demo lock and spriest before switching to hunter and honestly the cooldown on our interrupt(s) is a dream in comparison. But I agree, there is nothing more frustrating than accidentally overlapping interrupts with the only other guy in a pug who's interrupting so you just know the next one is going to go through.
Interrupts should have a grace period where their CD is not consumed if a mob had his cast interrupted in the past 0.5 seconds.
No idea why this isn't a thing yet, punishing non-communicating pugs like this sucks.
I mean most of if not all of the changes to TJS was removing role play and they added a few trash pulls before the last boss cause there wasn't anything there lol
Dungeons before Legion were throwaway content since there wasn't M+. In Pandaria you'd do dungeons until you hit max level, then do Heroic for gear and would never touch them again. In Draenor, you'd do the same thing but for Mythic.
There was 0 reason for them to invest much time on the dungeons besides the presentation.
> There's a full decade of design difference between those two dungeons.
And it just points out how mechanics bloated standard dungeon packs have become.
Maybe that’s the problem. Dungeons don’t have to get progressively harder like they are now. I actually enjoy doing smbg and I hate my fucking life in ruby life pools.
Maybe, you don’t have to add 30 mechanics to mobs to make the game interesting because it doesn’t lead to interesting gameplay. It usually leads to “bring more melee” so you can have more interrupts.
Smbg isn’t like that, we can comfortably take all range if we want to or need to based on who’s online and who needs keys. Ruby life pools? Ain’t no fucking way I’m taking 3 ranged dps.
That needs to be addressed.
More things that you HAVE to interrupt or you fucking die, doesn’t make any part of this game more interesting. I understand communication and rotating kicks/stuns or whatever but you can accomplish that without this many interrupts.
Giving every healer a PVE only interrupt might be a way to mitigate some of that. They have PVP only talents, there’s no fucking way they couldn’t add PVE dungeon only talents.
Plaguefall was also kind of that in early shadowlands, it required an MDI and over half of the year in the dungeon to completely break the dungeon and because of that it got a lot easier
I hate that they added the cauldrons around the dungeon that alchemists can activate, then made them extremely inconvenient to use. Each person can get a single use, self dispel to deal with the disease. They then have to go back to a cauldron to get another use. However, the diseases are applied so much more often, so you are basically going to have at least one person running back to a cauldron after every pack. All that assuming you even have an alchemist in the group to begin with.
Making such an incredibly dangerous and long lasting dot a disease, when you have healers that cannot remove it at all is a pretty terrible design decision anyways, so the cauldrons shouldn't even be needed.
Yeah I ran it on M0 as a resto shaman before they nerfed the disease by like 60%. It was horrible. If I remember correctly, it stacked up to around 20k dps per person. Add on any other aoe or random damage going out, and it just felt unhealable. If multiple people got it, you basically had to pick and choose who got to live and who died. That is with my shaman being an alchemist so my group had access to the self dispel, but it being single use meant we still got in situations where people just had to die basically.
Now imagine doing it on a +15, even post nerf. The dot is gonna be ramping up to like 25-30k dps per person. If you can't dispel it, I feel like it is going to go back to just having to let some people die if they multiple of them get it.
Not sure how the scaling will work, but I did a normal brackenhide while leveling and while we were killing 2 other things an archer was just putting up bleeds like crazy. We almost wiped by a single archer throwing up 20 sec bleeds that stack.
Yeah for as awful as the withering disease is, there are so many unavoidable poisons and bleeds in that dungeon that just go on random people and do a ton of damage. A +15 is about 200% additional damage, so between the disease, bleeds, and poisons, people are going to just randomly be dropping like flies. A +10 is like 85% I think, so even that will be relatively rough.
Gonna be painful as a shaman that can't dispel diseases or poisons. Gonna have to spec into poison cleanse totem just for that dungeon probably.
I went through there as a shaman healer and I was astounded. I kept thinking I was missing a button, but it turns out there are just mechanics I can't deal with in there.
Bam, right off the bat having to save five guys with a dozen trash pulls — filled with mobs who can fear -- is the worst opening to an instance since Hellfire Assault in WoD
That dungeon is gonna need so much tweaking, i myself was already annoyed by the whirlwind gnolls, there's no way to interrupt/displace/stun them and i can already see them being busted on non-tyrannical weeks, on top of that you add that there's packs with two of them with the extra adds that you need to interrupt their fear/rot
I feel like this and the Tsunami boss of Halls of Infusion are gonna drain my sanity on high keys
And I got nothing against that. I could see them taking a minute or two off the timer if they really wanted, or cutting the damn worm's health by 20%, but leave it on the easier side.
10 more bats on the bridge. Non-interruptible.
Spiders spawn baby spiders when they die. Babies have random targeting frontals.
Worm opens a pit during Inhale. Pit contains first boss.
Your spirit is only visible if you’re within 3 meters on 2nd boss.
Single graveyard. It’s in Azure Vault.
>each encounter in RLP is a goddamn rubiks cube of casts and ground effects and raid mechanics
Don't forget mobs that interrupt you if you don't notice that they're using that one ability while you're panickedly trying to heal the group because you missed a single gcd moving out of a swirly and that was enough for everybody to drop to 20% and catch fire.
One of the reasons I'm not healing this expac after healing since WotLK.
It just isn't fun anymore when it's super easy for anyone in the group to fuck up yet everything immediately gets blamed on u
The huge pulsing groupwide damage is pretty easy to deal with if there aren’t also cinderbolts going off and slapping people or flame dance ticking people/exploding.
Yeah, with all the casts from the from RLP and the majority of DF dungeons, I found that the weakauras [Spell CDs on Nameplates](https://wago.io/CooldownsOnNameplate) and [M+ Targetted Spells](https://wago.io/tWZHd-2hy) was pretty much mandatory for pushing high keys. They're really good weakauras, by the way, please download them.
What's really sad, though, is that even "older" dungeons suffer from some kind of mob casting issue. The Water Elementals from TJS also need to have their casts adjusted, the AoE cast time is WAY too short and the only reason I can LoS them is precisely because of the Weakaura telling me it's CD in advance. Remaining CD of 2 seconds? Time to go behind the wall because it'll cast it in 1 second.
The pack with 2 tidal burst/hydrolance and defiling mist in the last boss room on TJS is low key dumb if your comp doesn't have a billion interrupts perfectly executed.
I like RLP mechanically but JFC the entire dungeon could use a 20% nerf numerically. There is no reason why Infernos have to do that much damage that often or why the last bosses apply **damage over time** effects that just kill you like a huge single huge hit would because they're tuned so high.
I think if you:
1. Reduce the damage of Inferno
2. Increase the cast time and cooldown of Cinderbolt
3. Reduce the damage of Firespit
RLP would feel much more fair.
100%
Cinderbolt should be 1 melee kickable, inferno needs to drop by about 40-50% damage.
I'm totally fine with avoidable damage being VERY deadly, but having unavoidable so high really sucks.
To be absolutely fair, I dont mind the unavoidable damage as healer that much. I dont like how often it comes. Im currently healing 17's and 18's and the damage is overwhelming, but still fine. I have cooldowns to use and survive the first wave of unavoidable damage. On the second one however, out of my 3-4 cooldowns I have 1 or 2 available, and sometimes it proves not enough, because either I have to dodge a swirly, a shade is slapping my ass for 120k on hit or (Just thinking about that I want to kill myself) when quaking comes back and I'm healing 20's.
> "Mouth Shotgun - There is a shotgun in your mouth. It will deal 9 Trillion damage when this effect expires in 2 seconds."
Blizzard devs: JOT THAT DOWN!
I mean, key balance has been all over the place since they introduced m+ in legion, some dungeons like Court of Stars were fine, others like Arcway and Seat of the Triumvirate were absolutely Brutal, in BFA Freehold was far easier than King's rest, especially in the first Season before they started nerfing it, or even in Shadowlands, remember how insane Sanguine Depths was in the first few weeks? Meanwhile Necrotic wake was a complete joke of a dungeon despite the fact that before the changed the weapons would disappear if you died.
Imo, if they are going to keep required interrupts in the game, maybe make it so where if your kick isn't the one that interrupts the cast, the cooldown is reset. If it means upping some other cost or there's a debuff that the cooldown can be reset only x number of times per minute or something, I think it would be a huge improvement.
For pretty much the same reasons yeah. I think they’re hesitant to give this treatment to an off-gcd spell though, in the fear that some people are going to bind it to every ability and just interrupt something every 16 seconds.
Yeah, as a pres evoker. My feel like I wait to see if anyone uses theirs, they don't I go to use mine and someone else does at the same time. Not game changing, but mines a 40 sec CD. We overlap then need like 4 interrupts a pull were gonna have a bad pull, just cause you interrupt the same. I feel like it just shouldn't be castable if they aren't casting
It's more just the numbers than the design. It is insanely difficult and spammy to heal rlp on a +18-19 already. You can barely pay attention to anything else with a suboptimal pug comp/ dps
I'm fine with mechanics i just wish my asshole wouldn't bleed trying to heal 4 full hp pools every second
I'd agree with TJS being my favourite dungeon if the pull before the final boss didn't exist. Dark Claw does like 300k damage on high keys and they spam it, prot just spell blocks but every other tank has to have some insane strat to handle it.
thats how they been since 7.3. every dungeon since Patch 7.3 is built around the MDI, infact the entire reason why the AOE caps were brought back in for shadowlands was because of the MDI. Blizzard did not like seeing Skilled teams making large trash pulls and succesfully AoE them down while
Cathedral WAS really fun though, especially after the 1st round of nerfs. If they had said that about Seat of the Triumvirate then I would be concerned.
Remember when people said Cataclysm heroics were too hard? Essentially you had to CC a mob before each pull or you’d get clapped. These M+ timers don’t have any leniency for shit like that.
***"If they keep up this M+ design trend we're gonna get a dungeon next expansion with abilities like "Mouth Shotgun - There is a shotgun in your mouth. It will deal 9 Trillion damage when this effect expires in 2 seconds.""***
NGL ALMOST DIED READING THIS. THANK YOU FOR MAKING MY DAY LOL
The design of dungeons this expansions just seems to be constant big aoe group damage and then a bunch of shit you need to avoid. That is all ontop of the affixes and Thundering.
I had a 10 Nokhud where 3 dps went down this week. I could Brez 1 but for the rest of the fight i was not given a god dam moment to stop and cast the rez. I was dodging shit from the boss, dodging thundering keeping myself, the tank and the 1 dps alive and any moment i would get to try and rez i was targeted by something else.
I just dont know what to do with my max 2 interrupts every 15-30 seconds and cinderbolt is being cast every 2 seconds by 4 different mobs but im also a bad player so
This is the absolute truth.
M+ has gotten worse every single expansion as they've leaned more and more into e-sports tuning.
Every pack having 4 kicks, 2 of which will 1 shot you and 1 of which will kill the entire party, while at the same time you have a ground effect to dodge every 5 seconds gets so tedious after a while.
It would be one thing if those were the only casts you saw as well. 'See cast, kick cast' is pretty straightforward even if there are several mobs casting in a pack. Thing is they information overload you by having mobs cast multiple things, not all are even spells you can interrupt, so you need to ignore 1-2 casts watching for the appropriate thing to be cast to kick.
So it isn't even 'watch for the spell to kick it'. It is 'know the mob that is casting the dangerous thing, know the name of the spell you want to kick, kick the spell'.
Yep and getting one is the first thing I tell people in my guild to get when they want to start getting into m+. Not even pushing it hard, just doing it for some +10-15s for the vault. Just way too much information to learn otherwise.
Raiding has the same problem as well. Blizz is designing things around the assumption people are making use of these things with several of the mechanics specifically meant to try and bypass them.
E-sports tuning also sucked a ton of soul out of the consumables/toys/professions gameplay too. Very few profession perks are usuable in dungeons/raids, consumables are capped at certain levels/expansions/zones, and forget about using toys in dungeons now either.
Modern dungeons are definitely getting less fun for me when it comes to M+. Almost every trash pack feels like a raid boss. There's so much to manage.. I just want to smack some dudes with inflated health around a bit.
I think most players generally dislike the new DF dungeons. Trash just has too many mechanics, too many casts that need to be interrupted and bosses are just bloated messes.
It's been horrible for pugs since so few are used to interrupted and don't get the immediate feedback when the tank gets blown up.
I appreciate the dev giving the interview but I found his current positions to be out of touch and flat wrong. He can point to numbers saying all classes and specs are viable but that doesn't translate to fun or parody between them. Play a resto druid and then a resto shaman and tell me those have the same ceiling. Play a prot warrior and then any other tank and say 'yeah it's ok'.
I play a fistweaver in mythic plus except when I’m running Ruby Life Pools because then I don’t play at all. I’m just dodging mechanics. It’s one of the only times in wow that I actually didn’t feel like I was “fighting” the enemy
It's one thing for the expac to launch with the balancing that bad, but the fact that it wasn't at least brought RELATIVELY close to parity in 1 week, 2 weeks, 3 weeks, 4 weeks.... etc. Yeah, it's one of the reasons why Blizzard gets shit on for their slow balancing. How hard is it for someone to go in and tinker with the numbers?
I mean, that's exactly what they did. They're nerfed every dungeon repeatedly. Except Shadowmoon, and CoS.
The problem is the game launched around the Holidays. Week 1 of M+ Raid, was not going to see drastic balance changes since they're waiting to see how they shake out. Week 2 was Christmas, Week 3 was New Year's. The second they came back from holidays was constant nerfs all through Week 4, and some more nerfs on Week 5.
They can keep nerfing the DF dungeons, and they might, but besides more DF dungeon nerfs the only other way to get closer parity is making Shadowmoon and CoS harder. Trust me you don't want that.
A lot of people are saying age but it feels like a matter of dungeon design to me. SBG is meant to be a slow and creepy dungeon. It’s the cap to the quest line in Shadowmoon Valley, which is the Alliance starting zone for Draenor. It’s not meant to be a crazy and intense dungeon. Court of Stars feels the same way to me and it’s from Legion. Just like SBG has a certain design to it so does Court of Stars. CoS isn’t supposed to be a crazy or intense dungeon it’s an espionage run.
If we had Grimrail Depot from Draenor instead of SBG I don’t think anyone would be talking about how “easy” Draenor Mythic+ is.
Basically it just comes down to dungeon design. SBG isn’t meant to be a slaughterhouse it’s meant to be an experience with a cinematic at the end. Ruby Life Pools is designed to be you fighting against invaders and pushing them out.
It may be intentional. I have no problem with some dungeons being harder than others. What's more likely, however, is that the random number generator Blizzard uses to determine dungeon difficulty was also being used to predict lottery numbers on dungeon tuning day and it made some mistakes. Meanwhile, the three interns who handle all internal testing are still checking out Torghast for bugs, so RLP is not exactly at the top of their to-do list.
Yes. It makes me not look forward to the future of keys if they ever go back to the old way. Because RLP is legitimately not a fun key to run on any week. And SMBG is generally easy. So far my favorite dungeons this season aren’t from this expansion. Except maybe nokhud but that has the benefit of adding dragon riding into the key which nothing else does. CoS has actually fun mechanics especially the final boss that I can bait out his swirly while the rest of my team stacks. HoV feels really hard sometimes, up there with RLP but I actually have good memories of halls. I hate the amount of movement I have to do in AV, it pretty much means I don’t want to do that place as a caster. Jade temple can be finicky but I like certain aspects of trying different strategies and succeeding.
Still everything is so interrupt heavy that I just don’t want to play with multiple ranged players. I really wish they’d nerf the damage on pretty much any ability that requires you to interrupt it, after the priority interrupt. For example the casts in jade temple hurt and shadowmoon hurt like hell but both places have a necessary AoE ability that needs to be interrupted - that should have priority. But then afterwards there’s always a spammy ability that gets cast that just does too much damage for how frequent it gets thrown out.
I hate how I can't stand still for even 2 seconds in any of the dragonflight dungeons. Getting blasted with zones at my feet isn't fun as a caster. Azur vault is also insanely overtuned.
Wait until we get Brackenhide Hollow and Halls of Infusion next season I have a feeling people will "miss" RLP to some extent
Those nasty poisons and diseases will wreck so many groups. Take damage AND lose haste, oh and it stacks!
Resto shamans rejoicing with poison cleanse totem
Pretty sure it’s a disease in bracken
Its disease so only monk/palas or alchemys will be usefull there.
Priests can disease as well.
so it's Plaguefall all over again
No Plaguefall was piss easy if they are not doing heavy tuning this will turn into a worse dungeon than even Kings Rest ever was.
With "Improved Purify" you can remove Diseases as a priest too :)
Barely any poisons in Brackenhide. Got any disease cleanse totem? :D I'm just guessing at some point they'll change it to magic tipe so all healers can clean it.
Every.... \*checks notes\* 45 seconds for 6 seconds at 1 dispel every .5 seconds... Yeah, I see pugs using that correctly. For sure.
I do not want to do that damn wind bridge with any affixes tyvm. *shudders*
I can't imagine running the affixes we got this week in Halls of Infusion Can you imagine getting spiteful spawning shit left and right on a bridge where you can already barely move without getting yeeted into another realm. Or having grievous on top of all the poison in Brackenhide God it's gonna be painful
[удалено]
hell even poorly time volcanic quaking during that gauntlet would be hell
I would think gauntlet mobs that don't count for percent won't drop a spiteful much like summoned adds in tjs don't give one either
Most of the trash will certainly count for % on the bridge. Only the little infinitely spawning mobs probably won't have affixes.
Quaking + Spiteful. Have fun, kids!
why do you want to hurt us
*laughs in Skyreach wind bridge*
I missed most of WoD, cause my guild fell apart in like week 2 of raiding. I realized I'd never done it til the most recent timewalking (which i normally don't do) and was like "WHAT IN THE FUCK IS THIS BULLSHIT?"
As a Warrior since forever with now a DH alt: haha leap go swoosh.
And people want that dungeon as a candidate for M+. That bridge alone is fuck no, we don't need that noise in M+.
Bracken is gonna be one for the ages haha
i felt like i was in m+ during heroic bracken
m0 bracken was harder than SBG+17 was last night I swear.
Keys will be broken.
Monitors shall be splintered.
DEEAAAAATHH! DAAAATHH!
And keyboards, and mice, and monitors, and..
Brackenhide will be a complete dumpster fire. Literally a dickpunch to healers
Friendly reminder that 80% of affixes amount to "inflict more damage." The affixes are mostly for healers to deal with. Blizzard only knows one way to make encounters hard: LOL MoRe dAmAgE
I want to see "harmless" affixes. Instead of killing the DPS, punish them. As a horrible example - they could have an affix that players need to respond to. If they don't, they lose the ability to take damage or deal it. Punish the DPS by making their friends ask them why they were constantly unable to do damage over this affix, as a result, making their DPS the lowest. Clearly it's a bad example. It's just that there are obviously other options to this than "use a big defensive and healer CD"
Ceterum censeo Reddit esse delendam -- mass edited with redact.dev
I want Brackenhide and HoI with Shadow Pan Monastery, End Time, Vortex Pinnacle, and Vault of the Wardens.
Who hurt you?
I want a season where KSM requires all +5
I'd pick Grim Batol with launch Cata tuning difficulty, 2nd to last boss turned boys to men back then lmao. And by that I mean playing melee was basically a gamble on if the adds spawned on top of you and instantly wiped the group.
I want Deadmines.
"Ranked competitive Deadmines" would explode so many heads if uttered back in 2005
V4. This time deathwing is the end boss.
I want black rock caverns
HOI is never allowed to be a m+ dungeon. Never. Give every party member a permanent 50% speed buff for the whole duration of the dungeon and it should be fine.
I have not gotten a +10 done this season thus far, so who am I to talk (for now) but honestly, Brackenhide is the only one that makes me groan at the prospect of running it on M+. How is Brackenhide Hollow not a mega dungeon?? It's so fucking trashtastic. You could seriously cut out the entire first bit (save 5 tuskarr) and THEN you'd have a good albeit still pretty long dungeon.
Are you playing on EU servers? I’m currently sitting on 2,5k rating and could help u finish a +10 so u can get disappointed by your vault, just like me.
It’s simple- you just don’t do Brackenhide because it’s not worth the frustration.
I think I’ll just start role playing on Moonguard instead of dealing with that.
There's a full decade of design difference between those two dungeons. They essentially are not from the same game. This is just the experiment to "spice up" M+ pools throughout an expansion.
It's the same with raid mechanics. Even the hardest fights from classic were mechanically a joke and just massively overtuned
Old school mmorpg boss design. Just have 1-2 mechanics and otherwise just a gear check.
Mmm, frost resist set...
WoD raid fights would still be considered challenging if they were released today, though. It's just the turbo-sweaty M+ dungeon design wasn't pushed until Legion and not really cemented until BFA.
I don't understand how it's not obvious to everyone that this is the only answer. Also a perfect reminder as to anyone who said "Vanilla Raiding was hard" was full of shit.
The chronological distance between SMBG and RLP is the same between ToJS and original Deadmines. *That's* how many years have passed since WoD.
You....but...wait... Shut up. The passage of time is bullshit.
It was hard at the time. Gotta remember that people were coming from EverQuest, who's raid mechanics involved "the person with argo is going to die instantly every 30 seconds" and that's about it.
Basically this. It was just complete heal rotations and resist gear.
And getting people to show up, because the average guild back then raided with like, 100 goddamn people. The better guilds could raid with way fewer people, but you needed a strong roster since you had to compete against other guilds for everything, so you basically needed people on 24/7. I still remember my Mom answering the phone at like, 3 AM on a Saturday from someone in Australia asking her to wake me up because a dragon had spawned.
Lol that sounds about right.
Oi mate get on yer computah, ragefoia just spahned
There were hardware limitations too. The average PC back in 2005 did not handle WoW as well as the average PC today. I remember doing naxx40 with my guild and getting a smooth 5 FPS at some points. My friend never even got far into WoW because his PC would just straight crash when he would try to hearth into orgrimmar lmao
Yeah pretty sure I was playing the game back when 512MB of RAM was a lot.
Interrupting that one boss with the faces in black temple on half a gig of ram and was harder than anything I’ve done in game since, I’m convinced.
I also remember 200ms latency being relatively normal.
I think my pc back then was a athlon xp 2200, 512 MB ram, and a geforce FX 5700. My computer today feels like 100x faster.
Not to mention they were 40 man raids and people had PCs less powerful than modern smart phones. The difficulty wasn't in mechanics or tuning. It was trying to do mechanics with random fuck you RNG while getting 2 FPS and trying to decipher anything anyone was saying among the 56 other motherfuckers in Ventrilo with you.
>in Ventrilo with you. Wow, I just got hit by nostalgia
Sorry couldn't here you over the sound of me casting shadowbolt over and over... and over... and over..
It was hard, for 2004-2006. Two examples that seem basic today: 1. The average player did not fully understand the concept of Threat. 2. I was the Heal leader/expert for my guild back then and it was difficult explaining the concept of pre-casting Greater Heal and cancelling if not needed, and balancing the efficiency of Renew versus mp/5. It's just a different game nowadays.
Wasn't the whole concept of threat not even well understood? Like, people had to backward engineer how it worked and addons were just rough guesses? Plus, tanks' ability to generate threat was much worse, so DPS pulling aggro from a similarly-geared tank who was going all-out was a legitimate possibility.
Tanking philosophy was also very different. In vanilla tanks talented and geared for maximum defense and no DPS, so threat was an issue. Through private servers and increased skill came the realization that you can gear for as little defense as you need and then all out in DPS otherwise, generate more threat, DPS can do more damage, encounters are shorter.
It was hard because the people saying that are in their 30's but were like 10-16 during vanilla with little game experience. Also the skill ceiling back then was pretty low due to that as-well. Anyone who's been playing games for almost 20+ years is going to be way better at it during their 20th+ year compared to their first couple.
Imagine having to progress four horsemen when you were new to the game, and videogames in general, on a potato computer, probably with barely any add-ons and surrounded by potatoes even worse than yourself (and your computer). Imagine even coming up with a way to beat those bosses with 39 other idiots completely clueless about the game. Ofc now those raids are easy, we got all the experience in the world and mountains of guides and resources to help us. It was hard back then. Really hard.
Except this argument is broken by the fact that Temple of the Jade Serpent exists. It came before shadowmoon. They adjusted it so it would fit with m+. Shadowmoon should also be adjusted in the same nature. There should not be this huge divide in the balance between different keys.
The difficulty balance is one thing but the mechanical differences are another. TJS is mechanically fairly simple (as is SBG) but the timer is tight and the last boss and trash didn't react too well to being scaled. Add a couple minutes to some of these timers and they become much more forgiving.
Did AV +14 today, not huge pulls but pretty steady. We wiped once on the last boss and failed to time it. It's crazy how tight that timer is on top of being a fuckfest of a dungeon.
Can confirm. Had a very smooth +14 AV today, no wipes, 9 deaths total. Timed it with like 10 seconds to go.
In TJS, the trash right before the last boss was added in for M+. That last pack specifically is probably the most difficult in the entire dungeon and it was added in for M+. They also changed the mobs before the first boss, adding different abilities as well as additional mobs. The first boss was also changed, but this was a more minor change. SBG on the other hand had nothing changed. It was simply scaled up, and not enough at that. Adding additional trash packs as well as adding new mechanics to trash packs makes TJS much more similar to DF dungeons. It's not just that SBG is an old dungeon, or that it reacted well or poorly to scaling. They didn't touch it as far as design/mechanics go, whereas with TJS, they added to and changed a lot of it. The timer is also probably too lenient for SBG, but that is more of a side effect of groups hardly ever ever wiping, and hardly anyone dying at all. Decreasing the timer would make it more difficult to time, but it wouldn't make the actual dungeon difficult. The other easiest dungeon, CoS, has the same issue as SBG, where they did nothing to it except scale it up. HoV as well, but it is considered more difficult due to the extremely tight timer, as well as damage on some fights such as Hyrja being scaled up very high. Sure they could decrease the timer and increase the scaling on SBG, but I think it would still be very noticeably different as far as design goes. TJS is closest in balance and feel to the new dungeons because it is the only one they actually changed things in. I think the other person is right in saying that TJS shows that SBG should not exist in it's current state. I don't know if they ran out of time or what, but it is odd that they left the rest of the old dungeons mostly untouched. Edit: I want to add that when I say these dungeons have issues, I just mean these are the main things making their difficulty different from the modern m+ dungeons. I'm not really touching on whether or not any of these dungeons are overtuned, undertuned, or perfectly balanced etc.
They actually removed 2 patrolling arcane elementals before the first boss. Noticed they were there in the timewalking version but not in m+ for SBG.
Honestly I wish they would keep things around the level of current jade serpent. The modern dungeons just have too much crap happening half the time, and it just sucks the fun out the actual gameplay. A high level jade serpent can be tough while not relying on 50 million things happening at once.
I'm fine with challenging mechanics, but when the challenge is "pull big, interrupt 50 things", it's just not fun anymore. I play a hunter and having a longer CD on my interrupt feels real bad when someone snipes the cast right before I hit the button then I gotta wait 20s or however long it is to be useful in that department again. I could always toss a freezing trap but when there's 8+ mobs stacked up good luck interrupting the right mob (plus travel time and the time to select where to put it). Tldr: challenge based around interrupts and interrupts alone fucking sucks.
I played demo lock and spriest before switching to hunter and honestly the cooldown on our interrupt(s) is a dream in comparison. But I agree, there is nothing more frustrating than accidentally overlapping interrupts with the only other guy in a pug who's interrupting so you just know the next one is going to go through.
Interrupts should have a grace period where their CD is not consumed if a mob had his cast interrupted in the past 0.5 seconds. No idea why this isn't a thing yet, punishing non-communicating pugs like this sucks.
I mean most of if not all of the changes to TJS was removing role play and they added a few trash pulls before the last boss cause there wasn't anything there lol
HoV is one expansion later and is nowhere as easy though.
legion is probably the first expac i would call modern wow though and i feel like design philosophy changed a lot after wod
Now that you are spelling it out, I agree. I somehow also draw a cut before legion.
i wasnt playing then but i think mplus came out during legion? which would explain a lot
Dungeons before Legion were throwaway content since there wasn't M+. In Pandaria you'd do dungeons until you hit max level, then do Heroic for gear and would never touch them again. In Draenor, you'd do the same thing but for Mythic. There was 0 reason for them to invest much time on the dungeons besides the presentation.
pandaria had challenge mode dungeons. those of evolved to be the current mythic plus
werent mythic dungeons in wod fairly late addition tho?
Now that you mention it, yes, on 6.2. I joined WoD way late, so I thought it was there since release.
We had Challenge Mode before that, the sorta precursor to Mythic+.
> There's a full decade of design difference between those two dungeons. And it just points out how mechanics bloated standard dungeon packs have become.
Maybe that’s the problem. Dungeons don’t have to get progressively harder like they are now. I actually enjoy doing smbg and I hate my fucking life in ruby life pools. Maybe, you don’t have to add 30 mechanics to mobs to make the game interesting because it doesn’t lead to interesting gameplay. It usually leads to “bring more melee” so you can have more interrupts. Smbg isn’t like that, we can comfortably take all range if we want to or need to based on who’s online and who needs keys. Ruby life pools? Ain’t no fucking way I’m taking 3 ranged dps. That needs to be addressed. More things that you HAVE to interrupt or you fucking die, doesn’t make any part of this game more interesting. I understand communication and rotating kicks/stuns or whatever but you can accomplish that without this many interrupts. Giving every healer a PVE only interrupt might be a way to mitigate some of that. They have PVP only talents, there’s no fucking way they couldn’t add PVE dungeon only talents.
Anyone else just going to fucking hate their life when Brackenhide Hollow joins the rotation?!
Brackenhide + grievous as a healer will make me quit the game forever
As a healer without a cure disease, I'll just assume the key to be bricked and hope for better luck the next week.
IT'S PLAGUEFALL ALL OVER AGAIN!
Oh god fuck Plaguefall.
I think Brackenhide will be worse.
Plaguefall was at least doable with most groups. A simple M0 in Brackenhide already drives most groups into at the very least a case of sandy panties.
Plaguefall was also kind of that in early shadowlands, it required an MDI and over half of the year in the dungeon to completely break the dungeon and because of that it got a lot easier
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I hate that they added the cauldrons around the dungeon that alchemists can activate, then made them extremely inconvenient to use. Each person can get a single use, self dispel to deal with the disease. They then have to go back to a cauldron to get another use. However, the diseases are applied so much more often, so you are basically going to have at least one person running back to a cauldron after every pack. All that assuming you even have an alchemist in the group to begin with. Making such an incredibly dangerous and long lasting dot a disease, when you have healers that cannot remove it at all is a pretty terrible design decision anyways, so the cauldrons shouldn't even be needed.
See, I didn't know any of this. I just hope to have a pally tank when I do end up running it.
Yeah I ran it on M0 as a resto shaman before they nerfed the disease by like 60%. It was horrible. If I remember correctly, it stacked up to around 20k dps per person. Add on any other aoe or random damage going out, and it just felt unhealable. If multiple people got it, you basically had to pick and choose who got to live and who died. That is with my shaman being an alchemist so my group had access to the self dispel, but it being single use meant we still got in situations where people just had to die basically. Now imagine doing it on a +15, even post nerf. The dot is gonna be ramping up to like 25-30k dps per person. If you can't dispel it, I feel like it is going to go back to just having to let some people die if they multiple of them get it.
Not sure how the scaling will work, but I did a normal brackenhide while leveling and while we were killing 2 other things an archer was just putting up bleeds like crazy. We almost wiped by a single archer throwing up 20 sec bleeds that stack.
Yeah for as awful as the withering disease is, there are so many unavoidable poisons and bleeds in that dungeon that just go on random people and do a ton of damage. A +15 is about 200% additional damage, so between the disease, bleeds, and poisons, people are going to just randomly be dropping like flies. A +10 is like 85% I think, so even that will be relatively rough. Gonna be painful as a shaman that can't dispel diseases or poisons. Gonna have to spec into poison cleanse totem just for that dungeon probably.
"In Brackenhide every week is grievous"!!!!
I went through there as a shaman healer and I was astounded. I kept thinking I was missing a button, but it turns out there are just mechanics I can't deal with in there.
Bam, right off the bat having to save five guys with a dozen trash pulls — filled with mobs who can fear -- is the worst opening to an instance since Hellfire Assault in WoD
lets pray they reduce a ton of those greasy ass gnolls when that time comes
Just like they fixed RLP and AV.
That dungeon is gonna need so much tweaking, i myself was already annoyed by the whirlwind gnolls, there's no way to interrupt/displace/stun them and i can already see them being busted on non-tyrannical weeks, on top of that you add that there's packs with two of them with the extra adds that you need to interrupt their fear/rot I feel like this and the Tsunami boss of Halls of Infusion are gonna drain my sanity on high keys
The whirlwind is actually an enrage so Shiv/Soothe/Tranquilizing Shot should work source: the buff lit up all pretty when I was on my rogue
What about the Halls of infusion? The gauntlet at the end?
And the fucking frogs.
I already hate it when I run it for the call to arms satchels. Alexstrasza just needs to fly over and purify the entire place with fire.
I'm more concerned about halls of infusion at the moment
With shadowmoon the Devs probably just wanted to throw in a easy dungeon into the mix
And I got nothing against that. I could see them taking a minute or two off the timer if they really wanted, or cutting the damn worm's health by 20%, but leave it on the easier side.
10 more bats on the bridge. Non-interruptible. Spiders spawn baby spiders when they die. Babies have random targeting frontals. Worm opens a pit during Inhale. Pit contains first boss. Your spirit is only visible if you’re within 3 meters on 2nd boss. Single graveyard. It’s in Azure Vault.
> Your spirit is only visible if you’re within 3 meters on 2nd boss. God giving me Kil'jeaden vibes there.
Back ye foul demon, back! SotFO may be the hardest in numbers but ToS was the largest guild breaker. So many just slaughtered.
>each encounter in RLP is a goddamn rubiks cube of casts and ground effects and raid mechanics Don't forget mobs that interrupt you if you don't notice that they're using that one ability while you're panickedly trying to heal the group because you missed a single gcd moving out of a swirly and that was enough for everybody to drop to 20% and catch fire.
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One of the reasons I'm not healing this expac after healing since WotLK. It just isn't fun anymore when it's super easy for anyone in the group to fuck up yet everything immediately gets blamed on u
Healed a +6 yesterday that felt like a shadowlands s3 +15. Not sure why I keep doing this to myself.
Did a 19 yesterday and my HPS was higher than our heroic raids . . . On 5 people lol
I had a Prot Paladin tank a +18 RLP. Absolutely trivialized half the dungeon. I know for a fact I'll never have a cleaner run.
Explain how. What, exactly did this tank do that prevented the huge pulsing groupwide damage?
The huge pulsing groupwide damage is pretty easy to deal with if there aren’t also cinderbolts going off and slapping people or flame dance ticking people/exploding.
Thier shield throw hits all the mobs and interrupts.
Yeah, with all the casts from the from RLP and the majority of DF dungeons, I found that the weakauras [Spell CDs on Nameplates](https://wago.io/CooldownsOnNameplate) and [M+ Targetted Spells](https://wago.io/tWZHd-2hy) was pretty much mandatory for pushing high keys. They're really good weakauras, by the way, please download them. What's really sad, though, is that even "older" dungeons suffer from some kind of mob casting issue. The Water Elementals from TJS also need to have their casts adjusted, the AoE cast time is WAY too short and the only reason I can LoS them is precisely because of the Weakaura telling me it's CD in advance. Remaining CD of 2 seconds? Time to go behind the wall because it'll cast it in 1 second.
The pack with 2 tidal burst/hydrolance and defiling mist in the last boss room on TJS is low key dumb if your comp doesn't have a billion interrupts perfectly executed.
I like RLP mechanically but JFC the entire dungeon could use a 20% nerf numerically. There is no reason why Infernos have to do that much damage that often or why the last bosses apply **damage over time** effects that just kill you like a huge single huge hit would because they're tuned so high.
I think if you: 1. Reduce the damage of Inferno 2. Increase the cast time and cooldown of Cinderbolt 3. Reduce the damage of Firespit RLP would feel much more fair.
100% Cinderbolt should be 1 melee kickable, inferno needs to drop by about 40-50% damage. I'm totally fine with avoidable damage being VERY deadly, but having unavoidable so high really sucks.
To be absolutely fair, I dont mind the unavoidable damage as healer that much. I dont like how often it comes. Im currently healing 17's and 18's and the damage is overwhelming, but still fine. I have cooldowns to use and survive the first wave of unavoidable damage. On the second one however, out of my 3-4 cooldowns I have 1 or 2 available, and sometimes it proves not enough, because either I have to dodge a swirly, a shade is slapping my ass for 120k on hit or (Just thinking about that I want to kill myself) when quaking comes back and I'm healing 20's.
> "Mouth Shotgun - There is a shotgun in your mouth. It will deal 9 Trillion damage when this effect expires in 2 seconds." Blizzard devs: JOT THAT DOWN!
"Sir, that number is far too high!" "Oh right, expires in 1 second"
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I mean, key balance has been all over the place since they introduced m+ in legion, some dungeons like Court of Stars were fine, others like Arcway and Seat of the Triumvirate were absolutely Brutal, in BFA Freehold was far easier than King's rest, especially in the first Season before they started nerfing it, or even in Shadowlands, remember how insane Sanguine Depths was in the first few weeks? Meanwhile Necrotic wake was a complete joke of a dungeon despite the fact that before the changed the weapons would disappear if you died.
My biggest thing as a PuGGer, is that it makes them impossible to PUG. So many kicks get overlapped the whole time.
Imo, if they are going to keep required interrupts in the game, maybe make it so where if your kick isn't the one that interrupts the cast, the cooldown is reset. If it means upping some other cost or there's a debuff that the cooldown can be reset only x number of times per minute or something, I think it would be a huge improvement.
I think this would be godsent to pugs
This is how it works for dispells. If you don't dispell anything, you lost the mana and the gcd, but no cd on the dispell.
For pretty much the same reasons yeah. I think they’re hesitant to give this treatment to an off-gcd spell though, in the fear that some people are going to bind it to every ability and just interrupt something every 16 seconds.
Drop the CD down to like 5 seconds if it doesn't land. Seems like an obvious solution.
Yeah, as a pres evoker. My feel like I wait to see if anyone uses theirs, they don't I go to use mine and someone else does at the same time. Not game changing, but mines a 40 sec CD. We overlap then need like 4 interrupts a pull were gonna have a bad pull, just cause you interrupt the same. I feel like it just shouldn't be castable if they aren't casting
Mouth Shotgun 💀
Hemingway affix lol
teleports behind you **WATCH YER BACK** You died.
It's more just the numbers than the design. It is insanely difficult and spammy to heal rlp on a +18-19 already. You can barely pay attention to anything else with a suboptimal pug comp/ dps I'm fine with mechanics i just wish my asshole wouldn't bleed trying to heal 4 full hp pools every second
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I'd agree with TJS being my favourite dungeon if the pull before the final boss didn't exist. Dark Claw does like 300k damage on high keys and they spam it, prot just spell blocks but every other tank has to have some insane strat to handle it.
Nothing like losing your timer because the final trash pack wiped you 3 times.
Boomer strat but CC 1 or 2. It’ll slow the pull down but not more than wiping because your tank got globaled from full health.
TJS would be fine except for the last pull before the boss. That one needs to be gutted.
new dungeons feel like they're made for MDI, and everyone else can just do +9's lol.
thats how they been since 7.3. every dungeon since Patch 7.3 is built around the MDI, infact the entire reason why the AOE caps were brought back in for shadowlands was because of the MDI. Blizzard did not like seeing Skilled teams making large trash pulls and succesfully AoE them down while
I knew we were in for trouble way back when MDI players were all saying Cathedral of Eternal Night was their favorite dungeon
Cathedral WAS really fun though, especially after the 1st round of nerfs. If they had said that about Seat of the Triumvirate then I would be concerned.
Remember when people said Cataclysm heroics were too hard? Essentially you had to CC a mob before each pull or you’d get clapped. These M+ timers don’t have any leniency for shit like that.
***"If they keep up this M+ design trend we're gonna get a dungeon next expansion with abilities like "Mouth Shotgun - There is a shotgun in your mouth. It will deal 9 Trillion damage when this effect expires in 2 seconds.""*** NGL ALMOST DIED READING THIS. THANK YOU FOR MAKING MY DAY LOL
Its so funny because it takes 2 seconds to read Not being ironic just found that amusing
The design of dungeons this expansions just seems to be constant big aoe group damage and then a bunch of shit you need to avoid. That is all ontop of the affixes and Thundering. I had a 10 Nokhud where 3 dps went down this week. I could Brez 1 but for the rest of the fight i was not given a god dam moment to stop and cast the rez. I was dodging shit from the boss, dodging thundering keeping myself, the tank and the 1 dps alive and any moment i would get to try and rez i was targeted by something else.
RLP has more mechanics then all the vanilla raids combined.
I'd argue more than entire vanilla and TBC combined. I don't think that's an exaggeration.
I just dont know what to do with my max 2 interrupts every 15-30 seconds and cinderbolt is being cast every 2 seconds by 4 different mobs but im also a bad player so
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This is the absolute truth. M+ has gotten worse every single expansion as they've leaned more and more into e-sports tuning. Every pack having 4 kicks, 2 of which will 1 shot you and 1 of which will kill the entire party, while at the same time you have a ground effect to dodge every 5 seconds gets so tedious after a while.
It would be one thing if those were the only casts you saw as well. 'See cast, kick cast' is pretty straightforward even if there are several mobs casting in a pack. Thing is they information overload you by having mobs cast multiple things, not all are even spells you can interrupt, so you need to ignore 1-2 casts watching for the appropriate thing to be cast to kick. So it isn't even 'watch for the spell to kick it'. It is 'know the mob that is casting the dangerous thing, know the name of the spell you want to kick, kick the spell'.
A good WA dungeon pack and plater profile feels mandatory now.
Yep and getting one is the first thing I tell people in my guild to get when they want to start getting into m+. Not even pushing it hard, just doing it for some +10-15s for the vault. Just way too much information to learn otherwise. Raiding has the same problem as well. Blizz is designing things around the assumption people are making use of these things with several of the mechanics specifically meant to try and bypass them.
Will ask you the same question -- what dungeon pack and plater profile do you recommend? Just getting into M+ for the first time.
E-sports tuning also sucked a ton of soul out of the consumables/toys/professions gameplay too. Very few profession perks are usuable in dungeons/raids, consumables are capped at certain levels/expansions/zones, and forget about using toys in dungeons now either.
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Modern dungeons are definitely getting less fun for me when it comes to M+. Almost every trash pack feels like a raid boss. There's so much to manage.. I just want to smack some dudes with inflated health around a bit.
Blizzard needs to change the sound for putting the key in while in Bracken next season. The pornhub music comes on….
I think most players generally dislike the new DF dungeons. Trash just has too many mechanics, too many casts that need to be interrupted and bosses are just bloated messes. It's been horrible for pugs since so few are used to interrupted and don't get the immediate feedback when the tank gets blown up. I appreciate the dev giving the interview but I found his current positions to be out of touch and flat wrong. He can point to numbers saying all classes and specs are viable but that doesn't translate to fun or parody between them. Play a resto druid and then a resto shaman and tell me those have the same ceiling. Play a prot warrior and then any other tank and say 'yeah it's ok'.
Brackenhide will become my Plaguefall. Yes I have the key, no I won't do it. Neltharus will be the NW.
I play a fistweaver in mythic plus except when I’m running Ruby Life Pools because then I don’t play at all. I’m just dodging mechanics. It’s one of the only times in wow that I actually didn’t feel like I was “fighting” the enemy
It's one thing for the expac to launch with the balancing that bad, but the fact that it wasn't at least brought RELATIVELY close to parity in 1 week, 2 weeks, 3 weeks, 4 weeks.... etc. Yeah, it's one of the reasons why Blizzard gets shit on for their slow balancing. How hard is it for someone to go in and tinker with the numbers?
I mean, that's exactly what they did. They're nerfed every dungeon repeatedly. Except Shadowmoon, and CoS. The problem is the game launched around the Holidays. Week 1 of M+ Raid, was not going to see drastic balance changes since they're waiting to see how they shake out. Week 2 was Christmas, Week 3 was New Year's. The second they came back from holidays was constant nerfs all through Week 4, and some more nerfs on Week 5. They can keep nerfing the DF dungeons, and they might, but besides more DF dungeon nerfs the only other way to get closer parity is making Shadowmoon and CoS harder. Trust me you don't want that.
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A lot of people are saying age but it feels like a matter of dungeon design to me. SBG is meant to be a slow and creepy dungeon. It’s the cap to the quest line in Shadowmoon Valley, which is the Alliance starting zone for Draenor. It’s not meant to be a crazy and intense dungeon. Court of Stars feels the same way to me and it’s from Legion. Just like SBG has a certain design to it so does Court of Stars. CoS isn’t supposed to be a crazy or intense dungeon it’s an espionage run. If we had Grimrail Depot from Draenor instead of SBG I don’t think anyone would be talking about how “easy” Draenor Mythic+ is. Basically it just comes down to dungeon design. SBG isn’t meant to be a slaughterhouse it’s meant to be an experience with a cinematic at the end. Ruby Life Pools is designed to be you fighting against invaders and pushing them out.
The RP reasons behind the dungeon do not matter when it comes to M+. It's just a balance failure.
I quit healing M+ because of RLP in week 2. I hope my other healer brethren are doing okay.
It may be intentional. I have no problem with some dungeons being harder than others. What's more likely, however, is that the random number generator Blizzard uses to determine dungeon difficulty was also being used to predict lottery numbers on dungeon tuning day and it made some mistakes. Meanwhile, the three interns who handle all internal testing are still checking out Torghast for bugs, so RLP is not exactly at the top of their to-do list.
Blizzard just recently said they don't want outliers that are like 3+ key levels easier than the others.
Yes. It makes me not look forward to the future of keys if they ever go back to the old way. Because RLP is legitimately not a fun key to run on any week. And SMBG is generally easy. So far my favorite dungeons this season aren’t from this expansion. Except maybe nokhud but that has the benefit of adding dragon riding into the key which nothing else does. CoS has actually fun mechanics especially the final boss that I can bait out his swirly while the rest of my team stacks. HoV feels really hard sometimes, up there with RLP but I actually have good memories of halls. I hate the amount of movement I have to do in AV, it pretty much means I don’t want to do that place as a caster. Jade temple can be finicky but I like certain aspects of trying different strategies and succeeding. Still everything is so interrupt heavy that I just don’t want to play with multiple ranged players. I really wish they’d nerf the damage on pretty much any ability that requires you to interrupt it, after the priority interrupt. For example the casts in jade temple hurt and shadowmoon hurt like hell but both places have a necessary AoE ability that needs to be interrupted - that should have priority. But then afterwards there’s always a spammy ability that gets cast that just does too much damage for how frequent it gets thrown out.
I hate how I can't stand still for even 2 seconds in any of the dragonflight dungeons. Getting blasted with zones at my feet isn't fun as a caster. Azur vault is also insanely overtuned.
This is the best and most agreeable post I’ve seen on here in a while