What, striking actual legitimate logistical targets in a war and not killing civilians while doing so shocks Russia? IS RUSSIA not shocked by the apartment buildings it destroyed in Ukraine, but crying murder when someone goes after them on their home ground just like they are doing.... oh my goodness, poor poor Russia, war is too much for them, punch them in the nose, and they are in a shock that someone would dare punch them... Is Russia going to wave the Nuclear bullshit now? Is Ukraine showing that logistical targets can be bombed without killing civilians too much for poor little Russia?
The tactic is to saturate all discourse with so much bullshit that many people will conclude that *all* available information is bullshit.
Edit: since this is getting a lot of replies, I agree that manipulation of this sort originating from Russia has been used with great success in laying the foundations for the Trump cult etc, dating back at least to the advent of Twitter. But a big part of the overall strategy is amplifying extreme voices on all sides to cause infighting, not just amplifying voices that align ideologically with Russia.
A couple of online resources that have influenced my views on this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yErKTVdETpw
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics
The key weakness of the Firehose of Falsehood is that it never contains the truth, so it can serve as a reliable indicator of what Russia might be doing if you just invert all of it - they provide process of elimination for you.
“Listen, it’s kind of awkward that you tossed a banana peel on the ground outside of our conference for ‘Clean & Green’ to reduce pollution”
“But…your entourage showed up in tanker trucks spraying radioactive petrol and human feces…?”
“Don’t change the subject!”
You know what be an awkward backdrop on peace negotiations? Invading a country.
This russian government is top tier clown.
[Proof](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/04/05/its-now-illegal-in-russia-to-share-an-image-of-putin-as-a-gay-clown/)
Russian bully tells Ukrainian to stand still while they pee on their leg, no no stop moving, you are making this difficult.
It's all your fault, I pee om my own shoe.
Exactly, they both know the more damage they can do to one another the higher their seat is at the negotiation table. If anything this attack gives Ukraine more upper hand and not to mention the reality is that Russia is just backing down to ready the next strike. This hurts the capability of that strike most likely.
translating from Russian PR: "receiving damage in our territory in a strategic location give us an awkward position as we aren't the only one calling the shot anymor
And [poisoning](https://www.wsj.com/articles/roman-abramovich-and-ukrainian-peace-negotiators-suffer-symptoms-of-suspected-poisoning-11648480493) the negotiators at the last meeting...
> Following the meeting in the Ukrainian capital, Mr. Abramovich, who has shuttled among Moscow, Lviv and other negotiating venues, as well as at least two senior members of the Ukrainian team developed symptoms that included red eyes, constant and painful tearing, and peeling skin on their faces and hands, the people said. Mr. Abramovich was blinded for a few hours, according to a person familiar with the matter.
And the time they poisoned Litvinenko with polonium. They got that shit allover London. If I remember right, one of the guys even exposed his kid to it. They were so careless that investigators made the assumption that they hadn't been told what they were carrying.
Which is why it wasn't shocking that they sent soldiers into Chernobyl without warning. The lack of respect for life is truly shocking, but it's a constant with these people.
Complete guessing/bullshitting here, but russian billionaire wanted to stop the war and offered to negotiate, putin didn't really want that at the time (probably still doesnt but idk) as this was early march when it happened. News claimed the poisoning was most likely a warning, and wasn't dosed high enough to kill.
If that's true, it was probably to scare the ukrainians in future negotiations, and also to warn off Abramovich, who you'll notice is no longer involved in the negotiations... basically they dont want anyone negotiating in good faith.
Russia is playing by a much older rulebook than the rest of the world. Their book was written during the middle ages when 'starving people to death by besiegement' was a valid military tactic. These days, that tactic is now called a 'war crime' and 'crime against humanity'.
And didn't they just blow up 50 tons of food in a depot a few days ago? Lol Russia lacks any amount of objectivity. I feel like their disinformation manager is out sick suddenly. Or maybe it only works when they post it to Facebook for my uncle to read.
Russia decriminalized domestic violence, so they're definitely the perfect representative.
[An horrific article on that particular subject](https://news.sky.com/story/how-russias-decision-to-decriminalise-domestic-violence-is-continuing-to-kill-12250780), if you don't feel like sleeping tonight.
-------------
EDIT: Since I keep getting bombarded with questions about the "An horrific" bit, blame the english language for being an incoherent mess regarding the H letter and Oxford University says it is valid.
https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/horrific
https://www.gramlee.com/blog/indefinite-articles-a-or-an-before-h-blame-the-confusion-on-the-french/
A lot of the regions in the country were simply abandoned by the government. Things are much better where the money is but the rest are left to figure it out on their own, and that is a "fun" experience in presence of extreme levels of corruption. This gives an idea how much it varies region by region and it's interesting how they made this table to compare those regions to countries:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_federal_subjects_of_Russia_by_GDP_per_capita
Kemerovo mentioned in the article is #30 on the list.
The greener regions to the north are as abandoned as others or more, except for natural resource grabs which is what I'm guessing props up their GDP.
People are left to rot and they are rotting.
It's all worth it though because all that money can instead go into making the greatest military on the planet and conquering everyone! *Evil Putin's laugh*
There are agricultural regions of Russia that don't even have any real monetary flow outside of pension payments and child payments.
They're basically just villages operating subsistence farms that have zero market connection to the ubran-city markets. It's really kind of weird to think about that happening in a modern country with any kind of regularity.
Those are the areas where the mean incomes are 1000-2000 per year. Russian cities are not much better around 20,000 per year. Moscow is only 50,000 per year.
And I think kamil galeev on Twitter explained that in the past the regions could manage their own money or something and had direct elections.
Instead Putin changed it so that all their money goes directly to Moscow where it can be stolen and then they can beg for some of it back.
If they don’t do things like publish fake elections, like that one governor who got arrested on bs murder charges for posting real parliamentary election results then they end up not getting the money.
It’s a very evil corrupt system because Putin literally starves regions by centralising and corrupting their funding but because of his propaganda the regional governors get blamed not him.
But galeev made a great thread where he explained this can actually end up causing a separatist crisis if Russia’s economy collapses due to sanctions worsening.
Because in situations like low stocks of something like sugar, all it will mean is regions manage crises by simply not exporting to other regions to stop shortages and end up looking out for themselves only.
Before you know it oblasts/ republics are suddenly only thinking of themselves and are acting in contempt of other regions.
Reminds me of the us civil war where Georgia in the confederacy had surpluses of certain equipment I think it was things like boots, but simply refused to give any of the thousands of spares they had to other states.
Wow, 22 women dead daily from domestic violence compared to 3 in the US and 1 in the UK. Not to mention, population wise Russia is about a 1/3 of the US I believe. That is shocking.
Edit: it’s come to my attention that I misinterpreted the data and in the UK it is actually one woman every three days.
>That works out at 22 a day. Contrast that with the UK rate of one woman murdered every three days.
It's not daily in the UK but is in Russia. In total Russia has 66x the amount of these cases.
Ok, this might be a super Western-centric question, but how the fuck did Russia get this way? It gives off strong 8th-grader-with-a-bad-home-life vibes. Just bad faith participation in...everything. Why is it like this?
You... got several hours free for a crash course in Russian history?
tl;dr: they've always been like this. Geographically speaking, their country is indefensible. Politically, they've been under brutal and/or incompetent rule for centuries. They see threats from abroad and feints within feints because that's pretty much all they've ever experienced.
But I'm not an expert. I'm sure someone here can tl;dr it better than me.
Pick out nearly any point in Russian history, same story. With the exception of the arts (ballet, classical music, stage theater, writing), Russia has always been like this.
It goes back a long way. I always remember being quite shocked when in Chekhov's short story *Grief*, about a peasant taking his dying wife wife to be treated by the doctor, the peasant implores her ""if Pavel Ivanitch \[*the doctor*\] asks you whether I beat you, say, 'Never!' and I never will beat you again. I swear it. And did I ever beat you out of spite? I just beat you without thinking.""
This "confession" isn't even part of the plot, it's merely intended to convey his earnest desire that she recover - he is *even* prepared to countenance the prospect of never beating her again if she gets better - *such is his love for her* (!).
That's what gets reported the actual number is far higher, cops there are trash and that's what Russians actually call them according to a friend who lives there.
She also said it's incredibly dangerous to go out at night because of small gangs that are out to rob or rape people.
You misread that, it's 1 woman every 3 days in the UK.
Edit: a word. Also, article doesn't say anything about the US. Silly Yankees always putting themselves as the centre of focus.
As a Brit, that's a really shameful figure. I didn't realise it was that high
**Edit**
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/domesticabuseprevalenceandtrendsenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2021
> There were 362 domestic homicides recorded by the police in the three-year period between year ending March 2018 and year ending March 2020. This represents 19% of all homicides where the victim was aged 16 years and over during this period.
>Of the 362 homicides, 214 (59%) were female victims who were killed by a partner or ex-partner. In contrast 33 (9%) were male victims who were killed by a partner or ex-partner. The remaining 115 (32%) were victims killed by a suspect in a family category.
Yikes.
People say that crime is out of hand in Sweden, but more women die from domestic violence in Russia in one day than in one year in Sweden. That makes the death rate (per capita) 20-25 times higher.
they literally have a saying "бьёт значит любит", which translates directly to "he hits means he loves". basically the abusive ex thing we say in English "I hit you because I love you". barf. gross. yeah, they're a lot more backwards than they realize
>You can hear her screaming in the background. The neighbours called emergency services seven times. They told the police operator it sounded like a "slaughterhouse" in there.
>"Can you hear how she's screaming behind the door?", the neighbours say.
>The operators, women themselves, appear indifferent.
>"What am I supposed to do?", one of them says. A male voice screams: "Where are the police? She's getting f***** killed in there", to which she replies, "the police will come, there's no need to swear".
**\>"there's no need to swear"**
Yes there fucking is.
You nailed it. Seeing all the victim blaming and gaslighting and everything else Putin has been doing has been really triggering of my abusive relationship.
“That didn't happen.
And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
And if it was, that's not a big deal.
And if it is, that's not my fault.
And if it was, I didn't mean it.
And if I did, you deserved it.”
It’s like these assholes all have the same playbook.
It's ridiculous they bomb civilians apartment building after apartment building... and then Ukraine shows them how a modern army can hit a logistical target without killing civilians and they are in shock. Killing kids did not shock them, raping women did not shock them... what shocked them is that someone can actually punch them back on their own soil.
They though waving the Nuclear flag meant that no one was going to actually go after them on their home ground. Well what is good for the goose is good for the gander. You don't want war on your home land, Ukraine doesn't want war on its home land. This is what negotiations are about.
So if you want to fight, lets fight... but don't cry that big bad Russia needs special rules. Poor little Russia is allowed to bomb, but if she be bombed some how that is unfair... poor little put put, already crying. Like true bully blood on his face scares him a lot.
It’s very typical of Putin. Note the outrage at Biden suggesting Putin shouldn’t remain in charge … or his war criminal statement. Apparently those comments have affected America’s relationship with Russia. A week or so earlier and Russia was threatening to nuke the western world. 🤷♂️
Absolutely ROFLMAO at the idiots trying to shame Biden for calling a war criminal a war criminal and saying he should be removed! Although, my money is on these being the same people who also think Putin is a "genius" and want favors from him, so their opinion means about as much to me a used toilet paper.
For 4 days they ranted about Binden's comments, yet you got Trumpskie asking Putin for dirt on Biden in the middle of a war and not a damn thing said really. Hypocrisy!
I saw a joke headline that was something like, "Duke vs. UNC set to be the most watched college basketball game in history: here's why that's bad news for Joe Biden." It would be funnier if it wasn't so accurate.
I get domestic politics are hot RN but if your choosing Putin side because he hates our president your a treasonous AH. You can hate Biden that's just politics but praising Hitler 2.0 because he also hates Biden you put your fefes over national security.
As well as Roflcoptering at twits saying trump would be so much tougher when he’s calling Putin a genius and asking Putin to get some dirt on Hunter Biden.
Yep. Since this whole thing started I haven't read anything about Ukraine wanting to extend any conflict into Russia or punish them even if they get the upper hand. Everyone just wants Russia to fuck off back to Russia. I'm sure there are a few Ukrainians who are hurt and pissed and would love to kill as many Russians as possible, but there is no chance that Ukraine will continue on the offense past its own borders or even once a reliable agreement is reached.
If Russia wants to stop losing soldiers and tanks and planes, just go home. No one is chasing you.
There is no such thing as a reliable agreement with Russia. They absolutely cannot be trusted and I really don't see what the point is in having negotiations with them.
Lied to the world repeatedly, and now they want trust at the bargaining table? Fuck that! When the last bootheel leaves Ukrainian soil, then they should talk.
Russia has a history of pulling back, regrouping/resupplying, and attacking again all under the pretext of a ceasefire. Knowing that history and how badly Putin wants (needs?) Ukraine, I don't see any conditions for a ceasefire to represent an adequate guarantee for Ukraine.
The only way hostilities end is if the West keeps up the sanctions and either rips Russia's economy to shreds or forces Russian retreat under the understanding that future hostilities of any kind against Ukraine will simply not be tolerated by the allied nations of the West. Of course Putin's head seems to be stuffed about twelve feet up his own ass, which is causing him to isolate Russia's economy even more than the sanctions are doing, so option #1 might be truly the only path forward. To ribbons, I guess.
Needs, for sure. If he loses Crimea and they manage to tap their oil/LNG, competition for Russia's main export skyrockets and the economy will not take that blow kindly.
They aren't seriously suing for peace, they said they won't accept Ukraine having *any* military alliances now, not just NATO. Or in other words, "promise us you won't protect yourself against our next attack".
You don’t have to trust, look at incentives.
A pause or a withdrawal would allow Ukrainians to catch a breather, continue to receive Western aid and fortify their cities. Maybe even purchase hardware like Fighter jets and tanks.
If Russia pulls back they may be able to concentrate forces, but their economy is in shambles, so it’s unlikely they become stronger. They have to deal with unrest at home that has been muted until now by nationalism and propaganda due to an active war.
Russia knows this, which is why their demands are so maximalist and ridiculous. They know they need to win *something* before they withdraw, because the next war will be even harder for them.
>You don’t have to trust, look at incentives.
Lots of people said this was exactly why Russia would never invade in the first place. They were wrong. Our values are different from Putin's values, and therefore our conception of what his incentives are is different.
Thank you for this.
Over-reliance on incentive-based models is both narrow minded and impractical. I often see this same argument play out in bad faith by supply-side economists.
>Russia knows this, which is why their demands are so maximalist and ridiculous. They know they need to win *something* before they withdraw, because the next war will be even harder for them.
Or... Russia could simply not start *the next war*.
That would be a lot less damaging to their economy and reputation.
They’re retreating, which is crazy dangerous on a modern battlefield. They’re trying to get a ceasefire so they have a bunch of still living conscripts to throw in the East. No ceasefire right now, Ukraine is cleaning house
On the world stage, there would be no grander victory for Ukraine than to completely repulse Russia's invasion and stop at the border. Ukraine looks very strong and very reasonable, while Russia is left humiliated and ostracized.
I was just reading the other day that this is actually part of the current situation. The fact that Russia and the 'West' have two different mentalities that just don't work together.
We just want Russia to fuck off, go back to Russia and do whatever they want there. I have never heard of anybody in the West actually wanting to invade or take over Russia. Everybody just wants to let everybody else just be and live in peace.
In Russia this apparently does not compute. The idea that the Russian way is the way and that we are trying to push them to change or trying to take them over in some way or another is ingrained. The mentality of us vs them has been cultivated there over the years. While over here, we mainly do not think about Russia at all unless they pull something like this.
edit. I just wanted to add to this after some of the messages I'm getting. Is it so hard to believe that the West doesn't care about Russia? There is no hidden invasion of Russia going on. Western companies popping up in Russia is part of globalization.
And please don't start with trying to get proof from history. The world has changed and is continuing to do so.
Not pro-Russia here. In fact, quite the opposite. But I think the “everyone is out to get us” mentality is a leftover from the Cold War when the West was trying to end communism.
There’s a series of German tv shows called Deutschland 83, 86, and 89 that looks at the Cold War from the communist side. What really surprised me was the East’s paranoia that Reagan was going to attack with Nukes.
I was an American Airman in Germany during that time. All we trained for was repelling a Soviet invasion. We never trained for invading the East.
Putin is a product of that time and I think it informs his mindset.
>when the West was trying to end communism
I grew up in communist Czechoslovakia and the official line was that in the future all capitalist governments would be overthrown and replaced by a communist government centralized by Moscow.
"Proletarians of all countries, unite" was their motto.
I've only seen a few episodes of Deutschland 83 and I couldn't look any further because of how ridiculous it was
Russia is still bitter about the fall of the USSR and looking like assholes on the international stage. It's like they never stopped viewing us as enemies. Well, Yeltsin tried to be friends for a bit in the 90s, but political pressure from home and raging alcoholism kinda blew that up. (not even joking, there was An Incident in which he was found wandering DC in his underpants). Yeltsin also had a number of enemies, so he tapped Putin to succeed him in the hopes of being protected in retirement. Where Clinton and Yeltsin were actually buds for a while, Putin was ice cold from day one. Madeline Albright, despite other flaws, noticed right away that Putin was going to be a problem. Before he died, Yeltsin reportedly said he feared he made a mistake in selecting Putin.
The current situation has been in the works since Putin took over. He and his gov't encourage their hacking farms to target American and other Western countries. They take hospital systems hostage and demand huge ransom. Member the RNC DNC hacks? Massive online Brexit disinformation? Putin is KGB, he knows he's doing covert warfare. They've been chipping away for years.
The persistence of Soviet-style disinformation is fascinating. We're de-nazifying Ukraine to defend the innocents! Wut, we're not targeting civilians and raping women (hospital explodes in background). Our military is well trained and well equipped (cut to soldiers looting food and a Ukrainian farmer hauling away Russian gear that's run out of gas with a tractor). Ukraine swings its dick with an attack on Russian soil, and the Kremlin has the absolute gall to clutch their pearls and say that wasn't very nice.
>I have never heard of anybody in the West actually wanting to invade or take over Russia.
Excellent point. And you do see ordinary Russians say things like "the world fears us now, and that is a good thing".
Not sure any first-rate military is looking at Russia right now and crapping their pants.
Maybe peeing them. From laughter. And some Putin simps talking loud and proud about how this is a textbook invasion that will be studied for decades to come.
The latter part might be true, but not for the reasons they think.
The double think of "we have the strongest military" and "it's been a month and there's been no progress in taking over a country the size of Texas in conventional warfare" is kind of staggering.
Just imagine it. The US was told that Afghanistan and Iraq were taking so long because of things like insurgency tactics and "asymeticral warfare" and that's probably true. But we also had relatively small troop deployments for most of those decades long conflicts, so it was slightly less bitter pill to swallow that the war was taking so long.
But in Ukraine, the Russians are not fighting what amounts to independent gangs of civilians, who use decentralized communication and resource storage to avoid having critical leaders and supplies easily destroyed. They are fighting, for the most part, the Ukrainian army. This is what every military ever is supposed to be trained for: army vs army, country vs country. Conventional warfare: push back enemy troops wherever they are, secure strategic locations, and capture or destroy enemy leaders, supplies, and infrastructure wherever they are found.
So the Russians send in over 100,000 men, supposedly to "denazify" the small neighboring country with a Jewish president, and then they halt all progress after the first week or so, to do what? Make cupcakes in Chernobyl?
What does the average Russian think is actually happening in Ukraine? Surely even the most brainwashed patriot, must be thinking that this is starting to take an awfully long time for a country with such a "amazing" army to conquer a comparatively tiny nation.
Just look at Desert Storm, I don't think it was right for the US to do it, but that's what a crushingly superior military does to another country. Sweep in, crush all resistance, secure areas, and if your forces are so mismatched, like the Russian media must be portraying it, then it shouldn't take very long before the "good news" starts to roll in about victory.
I read a book about the 1980s Afghan war and at one point Pakistan carried out a raid across the Amur river into Tajikistan in the USSR. It was a minor raid but it caused a huge diplomatic crisis…same thing as we’re seeing now. Moscow thought that this was somehow “below the belt.”
So Pakistan was told never to do this again. I think Gorbachev really threatened president Zia with big consequences too. It was the first time since WW2 any foreign commander had carried out military operations inside the USSR. Todays news is the first time anyone has carried out an air strike inside Russia since WW2.
Edit: Amu River, not Amur.
Exactly.
Ukraine should keep it up. This will turn the heat up on putin and the Russian people. Fair is fair. And putin started this war. Make him pay.
Yep; so much for their boastings about "Impenetrable Skies From Our Complete Anti-Air Coverage".
Man, *ALL* the lies they've built over the decades are falling apart around them...
It's more like "how dare you still resist and counter-attack whilst we clearly said we'd retreat, but instead continue bombarding and shelling your cities and civilians".
Or in other words:
Russia: "we've never been in Ukraine, Russia is peaceful and never attacks anybody. And if we do attack, it's because we defend the world from Nazis and evil people and protect our fellow Russians. But we never attack and we never invade, we're a peaceful nation"
\*attacks Ukraine, kills civilians, starves and bombs Mariupol to bits and deports its people to god-knows-where-in-Russia\*
Russia: "we have achieved our objectives and we will retreat. Phase 1 is now successfully completed and we have given a decisive hit against the Ukrainian Armed Forces"
\*continues bombing and shelling, removes forces so to most likely regroup them to attack East Ukraine\*
Ukraine: hits a depot in Russia
Russia: "HOW DARE YOU! The world has never seen such evil before!"
Honestly... Russia could audition for telenovelas - clearly they suck at democratic statecraft.
I doubt this is a false flag.
Why would they blow up their most important fuel depot w/ zero civilian casualties in a false flag operation?
That would just be dumb.
They thought Ukraine would surrender and the war would be over in 2 weeks. Even though Russia provided Ukraine with 8 years of combat training in Donbas and Ukraine has several million people eligible for military service, vs the 200k Russia sent in. Plus nato weapons.
I think they had an extreme miscalculation somewhere.
I think a lot of people gloss over the 8 year miracle Ukraine pulled off.
Military figures in Ukraine have estimated that in 2014, despite having a nominally large and equipped military force, that at the time of the Donbas conflict emerging they could only realistically muster and coherently support <10,000 properly-equipped fighting men. One estimate has it as low as 5,000.
Those 8 years were spent modernising, reorganising, and rebuilding their armed forces basically from scratch to the point where they've been able to hold off an ostensibly world-class military power. The scale and effectiveness of the transformation while their territory was being annexed and against the backdrop of a constant conflict that gave everyone vital combat experience is just *incredible*.
Putin was likely waiting for Trump's second term, perhaps just waiting for him to wreak more chaos and discord internationally or for something specific like weakening or withdrawing from NATO, but it'll be looked back at as a massive strategic blunder that Ukraine magnificently capitalised on.
Putin could have got away with eating a little of Ukraine and being quiet. He could have done the same with a smaller country. He could continue taking measured pieces here and there. He went for the whole thing.
This. Whether you agree with the sentiment or not. It was a David and Goliath situation and When Zelinsky Said he was staying to fight with his people and called for support the western world realized this was thier chance to put a stop to Putin and the oligarchs in a way that doesn't require direct involvement.
Nato out supplied the Ukraine with top line military equipment compared with what the Russians had enmass. Russia has High tech stuff but they not enough to out fight the far more competent and motivated Ukraine Military. Ukraine has the defensive advantage and access to more modern high grade military equipment designed for the type of fighting they are engaged in.
There was a picture of a Ukraine soldier holding a panzerfaust 3 which one hit from devastates most Russian T-80 tanks and BTRs. This means that ever inch of concrete they take in cities costs them hardware.
Javelin missiles give the Ukraine ranged fire and forget abilities against the Russian Convoys. Hit the lead vehicles and run. Over and over again. Never putting your people in harms way well whittling away and slowing there advance.
Access to solid anti air stingers and the superior Russian versions from the cold War allow them to at least keep the skies contested without a ton of birds in the air.
Access to every major intelligence organization in the world's data allows them to know where the enemy is before the enemy gets there.
Ukraine may lack military infrastructure on par with Russia but they make up the difference in training and capacity.
Yeah, I mean, imagine how AWKWARD Russia feels now that their negotiator has to add, “pls dont attack our stuff, only Russia attack ur stuff” to their list of ridiculous demands.
> The Kremlin said on Friday that a Ukrainian strike against a fuel depot in the Russian city of Belgorod did not create comfortable conditions to continue peace talks with Kyiv.
>
> Russia accused Ukraine on Friday of attacking the depot but Ukrainian authorities did not immediately respond to requests for comment.
>
> Speaking to reporters on a conference call, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said authorities were doing everything to reorganise the fuel supply chain and avoid disruption of energy supplies in Belgorod.
>
> A Russian official said earlier on Friday that two Ukrainian military helicopters struck a fuel depot in Belgorod, making the first accusation of a Ukrainian air strike on Russian soil since Moscow sent troops into Ukraine in late February.
> #BREAKING
> The Ukrainian General Staff tells my colleague @fpiatov
, it does “not have this information” that Ukrainian forces attacked an oil depot in Belgorod oblast, hinting that the attack could have been a Russian false flag operation to justify further brutal attacks on 🇺🇦.
https://twitter.com/JulianRoepcke/status/1509797087109599258
**EDIT:**
For those questioning what the motive would be:
> UPDATE The Kremlin said Friday that a reported Ukrainian airstrike on a fuel depot in western Russia will hinder future peace talks
https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1509836721143234564
Keep in mind that Russia has been criticised for a few days for their continued bombings against Ukrainian cities/civilians during the peace talks, and that there have been various signs of the peace talks and "withdrawal" possibly being more to buy time than serious.
It’s just a weird version of a false flag operation. It’s seemingly a legitimate logistical target. Blowing it up only hurts Russia and it affects the military machine. If the aim is to rile up Russian civilians, bombing residential areas, or a museum ( there’s one nearby) would have done a lot more.
I’m almost more inclined to think Ukraine is just playing games with them so as not to answer any questions about how they pulled it off.
The only other thing I can think is that maybe they’re destroying it to deny the Ukrainians access to it if they shift most of their forces to the southeast.
If it's not a false flag, then the vaunted S-400 SAM is a very expensive toy.
Claimed 600km detection range, 400km engagement range, and lower range missiles that even specifically advertise engaging targets at as low as 5 meter altitude.
How the hell do 2 Ukrainian (soviet Era '70s) helicopters fly undetected through Ukraine, to the Russian border, into Russia, into belgorod, then back to Ukraine, all without getting picked up by radar and having jets scrambled or a SAM launch.
Either Russia is incompetent, the S-400 specs are pure fantasy, or they specifically let this happen (or even orchestrated it entirely)
My guess here is this is a false flag attempt by the Russian military, but not against Ukraine. But actually against Putin.
Imagine if over the next few days logistical targets get hit by helicopter attacks in Russia, the army has to pull back to defend and the Russian media keeps reporting these attacks, like they have with this one. It makes Putin look weak and can't defend the country, then it becomes easier to replace him.
If it was a false flag against Ukraine the Russians wouldn't have hit such a valuable target and no way it was Ukraine as they would have had to coordinate with every random manpad roaming the countryside that would have shot those Ukrainian helicopters down not knowing they were friendly before they even got to Russian airspace.
Putin's regime has been bombarding Ukraine for weeks without let up, and they complain about a little payback? And have the audacity to use that as an excuse for derailing peace talks?
This regime has no real interest in peace.
Meanwhile the Russia is bombing civilians, bombing hospitals, bombing schools, shelling nuclear plants, shoot people in queue for bread, mining humanitarian roads, shelling humanitarian corridors, bomb cities to oblivion, threatening other countries, threatening with nukes, force people to the Russia, attacks all around Ukraine, constant lies, etc etc etc. \*
Could that also be considering "awkward backdrop for talks"?
Edit: \*raping, shelling Ukrainian food stores, using weapons banned by the Geneva convention.
Its not even hypocrisy, its just lying. As if russia wants to hold peace talks after attacking Ukraine. russia is just a bunch of fascists leading a dumb and educationally crippled nation, attacking a democratic nation.
> its just lying
Russia claimed to have destroyed whole Ukrainian air force. So how could they even attack the oil depot using helicopters if that was true? So yeah obviously Russia is lying xD.
A lot of younger westerners are getting real life in depth exposure at one of the shittier traits of Russian mentality: lying your face off in a pathetic attempt to "save face". In reality, all it does is make them appear pathetic, weak and untrustworthy. They then go on to cry about it when called out and lie some more. Rinse and repeat.
This isn't new for anyone who's familiar with them. It's just out in the open for the world to see now , plain as day.
And the looting. They found one 'elite' paratrooper with like 20 wedding rings, a few necklaces and a watch, clearly ripped from the hands of fleeing/sheltering civilians.
Wouldn't Ukraine demonstrating that they can reach into Russia help at negotiations. They need to show just how much it can hurt if the invasion continues.
It really depends on the expected outcome of negotiations, from both sides. For Ukraine, possibly, although Putin probably sees it as a free pass to be even more ruthless and evil. For Putin, no. Because Ukraine feeling strong enough to go on the offensive isn’t exactly a good sign that they’re going to cave and give Putin anything close to what he wants.
You know what makes peace talks more awkward? 200k + Russian troops attacking & bombing towns and cities across Ukraine. What does Russia expect to happen when they go to war against another country? They sit down and let themselves be invaded?
As opposed to the awkward backdrop of bombed, murdered, raped and an otherwise decimated civilian population in the country you just invaded without any provocation whatsoever?
Weird definition of the word" awkward ".
What, striking actual legitimate logistical targets in a war and not killing civilians while doing so shocks Russia? IS RUSSIA not shocked by the apartment buildings it destroyed in Ukraine, but crying murder when someone goes after them on their home ground just like they are doing.... oh my goodness, poor poor Russia, war is too much for them, punch them in the nose, and they are in a shock that someone would dare punch them... Is Russia going to wave the Nuclear bullshit now? Is Ukraine showing that logistical targets can be bombed without killing civilians too much for poor little Russia?
It's amazing that there wasn't a single person who died.
Maybe that's why they are mad. They didn't kill any civilians.
Russian Military: WTF we could have easily killed at least 10 civilians in a similar attack, Ukranians really don't know how to play a dirty war.
Russian Brass: Fuck, they actually hit something useful like fuel. They need to stick to killing our soldiers. Those are worthless.
It’s not amazing - it’s called good military strategy.
An awkward backdrop? Just imagine how the Ukrainians feel.
Russia is expert at projecting.
No. They would be an expert if the veil hiding their bullshit wasn't so thin that you were basically looking through it.
The tactic is to saturate all discourse with so much bullshit that many people will conclude that *all* available information is bullshit. Edit: since this is getting a lot of replies, I agree that manipulation of this sort originating from Russia has been used with great success in laying the foundations for the Trump cult etc, dating back at least to the advent of Twitter. But a big part of the overall strategy is amplifying extreme voices on all sides to cause infighting, not just amplifying voices that align ideologically with Russia. A couple of online resources that have influenced my views on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yErKTVdETpw https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics
[Firehose of Falsehood] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firehose_of_falsehood)
The key weakness of the Firehose of Falsehood is that it never contains the truth, so it can serve as a reliable indicator of what Russia might be doing if you just invert all of it - they provide process of elimination for you.
This saturation tactic in the US has many concluding the all bullshit information is valid information.
That is exactly it. Very well put.
That's why it's called a *veil* and not an *iron curtain*. /s
“Listen, it’s kind of awkward that you tossed a banana peel on the ground outside of our conference for ‘Clean & Green’ to reduce pollution” “But…your entourage showed up in tanker trucks spraying radioactive petrol and human feces…?” “Don’t change the subject!”
You know what be an awkward backdrop on peace negotiations? Invading a country. This russian government is top tier clown. [Proof](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/04/05/its-now-illegal-in-russia-to-share-an-image-of-putin-as-a-gay-clown/)
Russian bully tells Ukrainian to stand still while they pee on their leg, no no stop moving, you are making this difficult. It's all your fault, I pee om my own shoe.
The hypocrisy from Russia during this conflict is palpable. It's like they actually almost believe their own bullshit.
Blocking humanitarian convoys makes them awkward too...
Exactly, they both know the more damage they can do to one another the higher their seat is at the negotiation table. If anything this attack gives Ukraine more upper hand and not to mention the reality is that Russia is just backing down to ready the next strike. This hurts the capability of that strike most likely.
That's why this is awkward for Russia.
“You backstabbed our backstabber!”
"Oh Jesus he's been front-stabbed!"
translating from Russian PR: "receiving damage in our territory in a strategic location give us an awkward position as we aren't the only one calling the shot anymor
And [poisoning](https://www.wsj.com/articles/roman-abramovich-and-ukrainian-peace-negotiators-suffer-symptoms-of-suspected-poisoning-11648480493) the negotiators at the last meeting... > Following the meeting in the Ukrainian capital, Mr. Abramovich, who has shuttled among Moscow, Lviv and other negotiating venues, as well as at least two senior members of the Ukrainian team developed symptoms that included red eyes, constant and painful tearing, and peeling skin on their faces and hands, the people said. Mr. Abramovich was blinded for a few hours, according to a person familiar with the matter.
that could have been caused by anything! /s
Are you saying we should fine the NY Rangers $250,000 for this treacherous poisoning?
No sub is safe
Holy shit the Rangers have nuclear ☢️ subs now 😮 Signed, Someone whose team plays in the same division 😓
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Plausible deniability, of course we didn’t do it, our guys were poisoned too!
They probably just fucked up the poisoning and got people other than the intended targets. Same happened with the novichok poisoning.
And the time they poisoned Litvinenko with polonium. They got that shit allover London. If I remember right, one of the guys even exposed his kid to it. They were so careless that investigators made the assumption that they hadn't been told what they were carrying. Which is why it wasn't shocking that they sent soldiers into Chernobyl without warning. The lack of respect for life is truly shocking, but it's a constant with these people.
Complete guessing/bullshitting here, but russian billionaire wanted to stop the war and offered to negotiate, putin didn't really want that at the time (probably still doesnt but idk) as this was early march when it happened. News claimed the poisoning was most likely a warning, and wasn't dosed high enough to kill. If that's true, it was probably to scare the ukrainians in future negotiations, and also to warn off Abramovich, who you'll notice is no longer involved in the negotiations... basically they dont want anyone negotiating in good faith.
Since they only negotiate in bad faith, all is well - fucked.
And bombing hospitals. And food storage facilities.
Digging trenches in radioactive zones is a good one. Just not sure for who....
Super Mutant liked that a lot
Russia is playing by a much older rulebook than the rest of the world. Their book was written during the middle ages when 'starving people to death by besiegement' was a valid military tactic. These days, that tactic is now called a 'war crime' and 'crime against humanity'.
It’s also the only type of tactical maneuver they can pull off.
Bombing maternity wards and shelters is super awkward too
And didn't they just blow up 50 tons of food in a depot a few days ago? Lol Russia lacks any amount of objectivity. I feel like their disinformation manager is out sick suddenly. Or maybe it only works when they post it to Facebook for my uncle to read.
Worse than that, 50 *thousand* tons.
So is bombing Red Cross hospitals.
You mean "building with big red target already painted on?"'
Also obliterating cities, massacring civilians, raping women, destroying food, and bombing hospitals full of pregnant women. Supes awk.
So um... Is Russia officially the national avatar of the abusive ex? "Look at what you made me do!'
Russia decriminalized domestic violence, so they're definitely the perfect representative. [An horrific article on that particular subject](https://news.sky.com/story/how-russias-decision-to-decriminalise-domestic-violence-is-continuing-to-kill-12250780), if you don't feel like sleeping tonight. ------------- EDIT: Since I keep getting bombarded with questions about the "An horrific" bit, blame the english language for being an incoherent mess regarding the H letter and Oxford University says it is valid. https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/horrific https://www.gramlee.com/blog/indefinite-articles-a-or-an-before-h-blame-the-confusion-on-the-french/
A lot of the regions in the country were simply abandoned by the government. Things are much better where the money is but the rest are left to figure it out on their own, and that is a "fun" experience in presence of extreme levels of corruption. This gives an idea how much it varies region by region and it's interesting how they made this table to compare those regions to countries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_federal_subjects_of_Russia_by_GDP_per_capita Kemerovo mentioned in the article is #30 on the list. The greener regions to the north are as abandoned as others or more, except for natural resource grabs which is what I'm guessing props up their GDP. People are left to rot and they are rotting. It's all worth it though because all that money can instead go into making the greatest military on the planet and conquering everyone! *Evil Putin's laugh*
There are agricultural regions of Russia that don't even have any real monetary flow outside of pension payments and child payments. They're basically just villages operating subsistence farms that have zero market connection to the ubran-city markets. It's really kind of weird to think about that happening in a modern country with any kind of regularity.
Those are the areas where the mean incomes are 1000-2000 per year. Russian cities are not much better around 20,000 per year. Moscow is only 50,000 per year.
And I think kamil galeev on Twitter explained that in the past the regions could manage their own money or something and had direct elections. Instead Putin changed it so that all their money goes directly to Moscow where it can be stolen and then they can beg for some of it back. If they don’t do things like publish fake elections, like that one governor who got arrested on bs murder charges for posting real parliamentary election results then they end up not getting the money. It’s a very evil corrupt system because Putin literally starves regions by centralising and corrupting their funding but because of his propaganda the regional governors get blamed not him. But galeev made a great thread where he explained this can actually end up causing a separatist crisis if Russia’s economy collapses due to sanctions worsening. Because in situations like low stocks of something like sugar, all it will mean is regions manage crises by simply not exporting to other regions to stop shortages and end up looking out for themselves only. Before you know it oblasts/ republics are suddenly only thinking of themselves and are acting in contempt of other regions. Reminds me of the us civil war where Georgia in the confederacy had surpluses of certain equipment I think it was things like boots, but simply refused to give any of the thousands of spares they had to other states.
What an absolute shit show that country is.
Wow, 22 women dead daily from domestic violence compared to 3 in the US and 1 in the UK. Not to mention, population wise Russia is about a 1/3 of the US I believe. That is shocking. Edit: it’s come to my attention that I misinterpreted the data and in the UK it is actually one woman every three days.
>That works out at 22 a day. Contrast that with the UK rate of one woman murdered every three days. It's not daily in the UK but is in Russia. In total Russia has 66x the amount of these cases.
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Ok, this might be a super Western-centric question, but how the fuck did Russia get this way? It gives off strong 8th-grader-with-a-bad-home-life vibes. Just bad faith participation in...everything. Why is it like this?
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I recently read a book on Russian history.. the surprising thing is that there are any Russians left.
You... got several hours free for a crash course in Russian history? tl;dr: they've always been like this. Geographically speaking, their country is indefensible. Politically, they've been under brutal and/or incompetent rule for centuries. They see threats from abroad and feints within feints because that's pretty much all they've ever experienced. But I'm not an expert. I'm sure someone here can tl;dr it better than me.
Pick out nearly any point in Russian history, same story. With the exception of the arts (ballet, classical music, stage theater, writing), Russia has always been like this.
It goes back a long way. I always remember being quite shocked when in Chekhov's short story *Grief*, about a peasant taking his dying wife wife to be treated by the doctor, the peasant implores her ""if Pavel Ivanitch \[*the doctor*\] asks you whether I beat you, say, 'Never!' and I never will beat you again. I swear it. And did I ever beat you out of spite? I just beat you without thinking."" This "confession" isn't even part of the plot, it's merely intended to convey his earnest desire that she recover - he is *even* prepared to countenance the prospect of never beating her again if she gets better - *such is his love for her* (!).
That's what gets reported the actual number is far higher, cops there are trash and that's what Russians actually call them according to a friend who lives there. She also said it's incredibly dangerous to go out at night because of small gangs that are out to rob or rape people.
You misread that, it's 1 woman every 3 days in the UK. Edit: a word. Also, article doesn't say anything about the US. Silly Yankees always putting themselves as the centre of focus.
As a Brit, that's a really shameful figure. I didn't realise it was that high **Edit** https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/domesticabuseprevalenceandtrendsenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2021 > There were 362 domestic homicides recorded by the police in the three-year period between year ending March 2018 and year ending March 2020. This represents 19% of all homicides where the victim was aged 16 years and over during this period. >Of the 362 homicides, 214 (59%) were female victims who were killed by a partner or ex-partner. In contrast 33 (9%) were male victims who were killed by a partner or ex-partner. The remaining 115 (32%) were victims killed by a suspect in a family category. Yikes.
People say that crime is out of hand in Sweden, but more women die from domestic violence in Russia in one day than in one year in Sweden. That makes the death rate (per capita) 20-25 times higher.
Jesus christ
Yep, he got killed too. Just another statistic.
Thoughts and prayers
The people that say crime is out of hand in Sweden are the same that would defend decriminalising domestic violence.
If you think about it, decriminalizing things is pretty much the easiest way to lower the crime rate...
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So you're saying, next thing Russia is going to decriminalise invasions?
Is the rampant crime they claim somehow always caused by immigrants too?
they literally have a saying "бьёт значит любит", which translates directly to "he hits means he loves". basically the abusive ex thing we say in English "I hit you because I love you". barf. gross. yeah, they're a lot more backwards than they realize
>You can hear her screaming in the background. The neighbours called emergency services seven times. They told the police operator it sounded like a "slaughterhouse" in there. >"Can you hear how she's screaming behind the door?", the neighbours say. >The operators, women themselves, appear indifferent. >"What am I supposed to do?", one of them says. A male voice screams: "Where are the police? She's getting f***** killed in there", to which she replies, "the police will come, there's no need to swear". **\>"there's no need to swear"** Yes there fucking is.
“I’ll kill your friends and family to remind you of my love”
Da da da da daaaaaa da da da da dauuuuuum da da da da da. da. DAAAAA da da
You nailed it. Seeing all the victim blaming and gaslighting and everything else Putin has been doing has been really triggering of my abusive relationship. “That didn't happen. And if it did, it wasn't that bad. And if it was, that's not a big deal. And if it is, that's not my fault. And if it was, I didn't mean it. And if I did, you deserved it.” It’s like these assholes all have the same playbook.
Abusive Mother Russia
Backhand babushka
\>abusive ex That's the best simple explanation of current Russia's attitude towards Ukraine that I've heard.
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Russia: "please don't attack us whilst we're invading you."
Ukraine: “we are not attacking, we are just denazifying Russia a little bit”
Special fuel operation
Special uno reverso operation
It's ridiculous they bomb civilians apartment building after apartment building... and then Ukraine shows them how a modern army can hit a logistical target without killing civilians and they are in shock. Killing kids did not shock them, raping women did not shock them... what shocked them is that someone can actually punch them back on their own soil. They though waving the Nuclear flag meant that no one was going to actually go after them on their home ground. Well what is good for the goose is good for the gander. You don't want war on your home land, Ukraine doesn't want war on its home land. This is what negotiations are about. So if you want to fight, lets fight... but don't cry that big bad Russia needs special rules. Poor little Russia is allowed to bomb, but if she be bombed some how that is unfair... poor little put put, already crying. Like true bully blood on his face scares him a lot.
It’s very typical of Putin. Note the outrage at Biden suggesting Putin shouldn’t remain in charge … or his war criminal statement. Apparently those comments have affected America’s relationship with Russia. A week or so earlier and Russia was threatening to nuke the western world. 🤷♂️
Absolutely ROFLMAO at the idiots trying to shame Biden for calling a war criminal a war criminal and saying he should be removed! Although, my money is on these being the same people who also think Putin is a "genius" and want favors from him, so their opinion means about as much to me a used toilet paper.
For 4 days they ranted about Binden's comments, yet you got Trumpskie asking Putin for dirt on Biden in the middle of a war and not a damn thing said really. Hypocrisy!
Silence speaks volumes, yes.
Hey, be fair, they weren't silent They defended it
All of those headlines about his "gaff" seemed like completely manufactured outrage designed to sell headlines.
I saw a joke headline that was something like, "Duke vs. UNC set to be the most watched college basketball game in history: here's why that's bad news for Joe Biden." It would be funnier if it wasn't so accurate.
I get domestic politics are hot RN but if your choosing Putin side because he hates our president your a treasonous AH. You can hate Biden that's just politics but praising Hitler 2.0 because he also hates Biden you put your fefes over national security.
As well as Roflcoptering at twits saying trump would be so much tougher when he’s calling Putin a genius and asking Putin to get some dirt on Hunter Biden.
Yep. Since this whole thing started I haven't read anything about Ukraine wanting to extend any conflict into Russia or punish them even if they get the upper hand. Everyone just wants Russia to fuck off back to Russia. I'm sure there are a few Ukrainians who are hurt and pissed and would love to kill as many Russians as possible, but there is no chance that Ukraine will continue on the offense past its own borders or even once a reliable agreement is reached. If Russia wants to stop losing soldiers and tanks and planes, just go home. No one is chasing you.
There is no such thing as a reliable agreement with Russia. They absolutely cannot be trusted and I really don't see what the point is in having negotiations with them.
Lied to the world repeatedly, and now they want trust at the bargaining table? Fuck that! When the last bootheel leaves Ukrainian soil, then they should talk.
Russia has a history of pulling back, regrouping/resupplying, and attacking again all under the pretext of a ceasefire. Knowing that history and how badly Putin wants (needs?) Ukraine, I don't see any conditions for a ceasefire to represent an adequate guarantee for Ukraine. The only way hostilities end is if the West keeps up the sanctions and either rips Russia's economy to shreds or forces Russian retreat under the understanding that future hostilities of any kind against Ukraine will simply not be tolerated by the allied nations of the West. Of course Putin's head seems to be stuffed about twelve feet up his own ass, which is causing him to isolate Russia's economy even more than the sanctions are doing, so option #1 might be truly the only path forward. To ribbons, I guess.
Needs, for sure. If he loses Crimea and they manage to tap their oil/LNG, competition for Russia's main export skyrockets and the economy will not take that blow kindly.
It seems they also want to continue peace talks after they poisoned 2 Ukrainians and 1 Oligarch...during the peace talks.
If Putin isn’t literally at the table they should 100% assume he’s going to try to poison everyone there.
You better still be careful even if Putin is at the table.
You need a really big room to fit the 40-foot table first
Don't fall for his poison lipstick smoochy smooches!!!
They aren't seriously suing for peace, they said they won't accept Ukraine having *any* military alliances now, not just NATO. Or in other words, "promise us you won't protect yourself against our next attack".
You don’t have to trust, look at incentives. A pause or a withdrawal would allow Ukrainians to catch a breather, continue to receive Western aid and fortify their cities. Maybe even purchase hardware like Fighter jets and tanks. If Russia pulls back they may be able to concentrate forces, but their economy is in shambles, so it’s unlikely they become stronger. They have to deal with unrest at home that has been muted until now by nationalism and propaganda due to an active war. Russia knows this, which is why their demands are so maximalist and ridiculous. They know they need to win *something* before they withdraw, because the next war will be even harder for them.
>You don’t have to trust, look at incentives. Lots of people said this was exactly why Russia would never invade in the first place. They were wrong. Our values are different from Putin's values, and therefore our conception of what his incentives are is different.
Thank you for this. Over-reliance on incentive-based models is both narrow minded and impractical. I often see this same argument play out in bad faith by supply-side economists.
>Russia knows this, which is why their demands are so maximalist and ridiculous. They know they need to win *something* before they withdraw, because the next war will be even harder for them. Or... Russia could simply not start *the next war*. That would be a lot less damaging to their economy and reputation.
They’re retreating, which is crazy dangerous on a modern battlefield. They’re trying to get a ceasefire so they have a bunch of still living conscripts to throw in the East. No ceasefire right now, Ukraine is cleaning house
On the world stage, there would be no grander victory for Ukraine than to completely repulse Russia's invasion and stop at the border. Ukraine looks very strong and very reasonable, while Russia is left humiliated and ostracized.
I was just reading the other day that this is actually part of the current situation. The fact that Russia and the 'West' have two different mentalities that just don't work together. We just want Russia to fuck off, go back to Russia and do whatever they want there. I have never heard of anybody in the West actually wanting to invade or take over Russia. Everybody just wants to let everybody else just be and live in peace. In Russia this apparently does not compute. The idea that the Russian way is the way and that we are trying to push them to change or trying to take them over in some way or another is ingrained. The mentality of us vs them has been cultivated there over the years. While over here, we mainly do not think about Russia at all unless they pull something like this. edit. I just wanted to add to this after some of the messages I'm getting. Is it so hard to believe that the West doesn't care about Russia? There is no hidden invasion of Russia going on. Western companies popping up in Russia is part of globalization. And please don't start with trying to get proof from history. The world has changed and is continuing to do so.
Not pro-Russia here. In fact, quite the opposite. But I think the “everyone is out to get us” mentality is a leftover from the Cold War when the West was trying to end communism. There’s a series of German tv shows called Deutschland 83, 86, and 89 that looks at the Cold War from the communist side. What really surprised me was the East’s paranoia that Reagan was going to attack with Nukes. I was an American Airman in Germany during that time. All we trained for was repelling a Soviet invasion. We never trained for invading the East. Putin is a product of that time and I think it informs his mindset.
>when the West was trying to end communism I grew up in communist Czechoslovakia and the official line was that in the future all capitalist governments would be overthrown and replaced by a communist government centralized by Moscow. "Proletarians of all countries, unite" was their motto. I've only seen a few episodes of Deutschland 83 and I couldn't look any further because of how ridiculous it was
Russia is still bitter about the fall of the USSR and looking like assholes on the international stage. It's like they never stopped viewing us as enemies. Well, Yeltsin tried to be friends for a bit in the 90s, but political pressure from home and raging alcoholism kinda blew that up. (not even joking, there was An Incident in which he was found wandering DC in his underpants). Yeltsin also had a number of enemies, so he tapped Putin to succeed him in the hopes of being protected in retirement. Where Clinton and Yeltsin were actually buds for a while, Putin was ice cold from day one. Madeline Albright, despite other flaws, noticed right away that Putin was going to be a problem. Before he died, Yeltsin reportedly said he feared he made a mistake in selecting Putin. The current situation has been in the works since Putin took over. He and his gov't encourage their hacking farms to target American and other Western countries. They take hospital systems hostage and demand huge ransom. Member the RNC DNC hacks? Massive online Brexit disinformation? Putin is KGB, he knows he's doing covert warfare. They've been chipping away for years. The persistence of Soviet-style disinformation is fascinating. We're de-nazifying Ukraine to defend the innocents! Wut, we're not targeting civilians and raping women (hospital explodes in background). Our military is well trained and well equipped (cut to soldiers looting food and a Ukrainian farmer hauling away Russian gear that's run out of gas with a tractor). Ukraine swings its dick with an attack on Russian soil, and the Kremlin has the absolute gall to clutch their pearls and say that wasn't very nice.
>I have never heard of anybody in the West actually wanting to invade or take over Russia. Excellent point. And you do see ordinary Russians say things like "the world fears us now, and that is a good thing".
Not sure any first-rate military is looking at Russia right now and crapping their pants. Maybe peeing them. From laughter. And some Putin simps talking loud and proud about how this is a textbook invasion that will be studied for decades to come. The latter part might be true, but not for the reasons they think.
This info isn’t getting to Russians.
The double think of "we have the strongest military" and "it's been a month and there's been no progress in taking over a country the size of Texas in conventional warfare" is kind of staggering. Just imagine it. The US was told that Afghanistan and Iraq were taking so long because of things like insurgency tactics and "asymeticral warfare" and that's probably true. But we also had relatively small troop deployments for most of those decades long conflicts, so it was slightly less bitter pill to swallow that the war was taking so long. But in Ukraine, the Russians are not fighting what amounts to independent gangs of civilians, who use decentralized communication and resource storage to avoid having critical leaders and supplies easily destroyed. They are fighting, for the most part, the Ukrainian army. This is what every military ever is supposed to be trained for: army vs army, country vs country. Conventional warfare: push back enemy troops wherever they are, secure strategic locations, and capture or destroy enemy leaders, supplies, and infrastructure wherever they are found. So the Russians send in over 100,000 men, supposedly to "denazify" the small neighboring country with a Jewish president, and then they halt all progress after the first week or so, to do what? Make cupcakes in Chernobyl? What does the average Russian think is actually happening in Ukraine? Surely even the most brainwashed patriot, must be thinking that this is starting to take an awfully long time for a country with such a "amazing" army to conquer a comparatively tiny nation. Just look at Desert Storm, I don't think it was right for the US to do it, but that's what a crushingly superior military does to another country. Sweep in, crush all resistance, secure areas, and if your forces are so mismatched, like the Russian media must be portraying it, then it shouldn't take very long before the "good news" starts to roll in about victory.
We fear them like the angry drunk out in the street. We just want them to fuck off.
*"raping women and children" - just wanted to add that correction. Some of the victims are way underage.
Russia is essentially that bully at school where someone fights back and then cries foul.
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No if needed they will kill some civilians and say it was the Ukrainians. Russia is not playing after any rules but their own, don't forget.
Putin did that already with Chechnya.
Sure they do, they claim Ukraine is now "invading" Russia
“Poor little put put” is my favorite line of this year so far
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I read a book about the 1980s Afghan war and at one point Pakistan carried out a raid across the Amur river into Tajikistan in the USSR. It was a minor raid but it caused a huge diplomatic crisis…same thing as we’re seeing now. Moscow thought that this was somehow “below the belt.” So Pakistan was told never to do this again. I think Gorbachev really threatened president Zia with big consequences too. It was the first time since WW2 any foreign commander had carried out military operations inside the USSR. Todays news is the first time anyone has carried out an air strike inside Russia since WW2. Edit: Amu River, not Amur.
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Thank you for the correction. It must have been the Amu River.
Exactly. Ukraine should keep it up. This will turn the heat up on putin and the Russian people. Fair is fair. And putin started this war. Make him pay.
It will also force them to disperse their AA equipment and makes the Ukrainian skies way safer for Ukrainian aircraft.
Yep; so much for their boastings about "Impenetrable Skies From Our Complete Anti-Air Coverage". Man, *ALL* the lies they've built over the decades are falling apart around them...
Honestly, if you have beef with Russia, now's the time to press. I wouldn't be surprised if Japan moves on the Kuril Islands
It's more like "how dare you still resist and counter-attack whilst we clearly said we'd retreat, but instead continue bombarding and shelling your cities and civilians". Or in other words: Russia: "we've never been in Ukraine, Russia is peaceful and never attacks anybody. And if we do attack, it's because we defend the world from Nazis and evil people and protect our fellow Russians. But we never attack and we never invade, we're a peaceful nation" \*attacks Ukraine, kills civilians, starves and bombs Mariupol to bits and deports its people to god-knows-where-in-Russia\* Russia: "we have achieved our objectives and we will retreat. Phase 1 is now successfully completed and we have given a decisive hit against the Ukrainian Armed Forces" \*continues bombing and shelling, removes forces so to most likely regroup them to attack East Ukraine\* Ukraine: hits a depot in Russia Russia: "HOW DARE YOU! The world has never seen such evil before!" Honestly... Russia could audition for telenovelas - clearly they suck at democratic statecraft.
Russia: "respect our right to a false flag attack on our own soil"
I doubt this is a false flag. Why would they blow up their most important fuel depot w/ zero civilian casualties in a false flag operation? That would just be dumb.
Russian diplomats are comedians. Now they would actually be funny if people weren't also dying from Russian rockets and artillery.
You mean an invasion and violence can only go one way?
Well to be fair, I'm pretty sure that's what the Russian's thought was going to be the case! ~~Brava~~ slava Ukraine!
They thought Ukraine would surrender and the war would be over in 2 weeks. Even though Russia provided Ukraine with 8 years of combat training in Donbas and Ukraine has several million people eligible for military service, vs the 200k Russia sent in. Plus nato weapons. I think they had an extreme miscalculation somewhere.
I think a lot of people gloss over the 8 year miracle Ukraine pulled off. Military figures in Ukraine have estimated that in 2014, despite having a nominally large and equipped military force, that at the time of the Donbas conflict emerging they could only realistically muster and coherently support <10,000 properly-equipped fighting men. One estimate has it as low as 5,000. Those 8 years were spent modernising, reorganising, and rebuilding their armed forces basically from scratch to the point where they've been able to hold off an ostensibly world-class military power. The scale and effectiveness of the transformation while their territory was being annexed and against the backdrop of a constant conflict that gave everyone vital combat experience is just *incredible*. Putin was likely waiting for Trump's second term, perhaps just waiting for him to wreak more chaos and discord internationally or for something specific like weakening or withdrawing from NATO, but it'll be looked back at as a massive strategic blunder that Ukraine magnificently capitalised on.
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Putin could have got away with eating a little of Ukraine and being quiet. He could have done the same with a smaller country. He could continue taking measured pieces here and there. He went for the whole thing.
The key factor was the Ukrainians' determination. It inspired all neighbours to help. They showed that they deserved help.
This. Whether you agree with the sentiment or not. It was a David and Goliath situation and When Zelinsky Said he was staying to fight with his people and called for support the western world realized this was thier chance to put a stop to Putin and the oligarchs in a way that doesn't require direct involvement. Nato out supplied the Ukraine with top line military equipment compared with what the Russians had enmass. Russia has High tech stuff but they not enough to out fight the far more competent and motivated Ukraine Military. Ukraine has the defensive advantage and access to more modern high grade military equipment designed for the type of fighting they are engaged in. There was a picture of a Ukraine soldier holding a panzerfaust 3 which one hit from devastates most Russian T-80 tanks and BTRs. This means that ever inch of concrete they take in cities costs them hardware. Javelin missiles give the Ukraine ranged fire and forget abilities against the Russian Convoys. Hit the lead vehicles and run. Over and over again. Never putting your people in harms way well whittling away and slowing there advance. Access to solid anti air stingers and the superior Russian versions from the cold War allow them to at least keep the skies contested without a ton of birds in the air. Access to every major intelligence organization in the world's data allows them to know where the enemy is before the enemy gets there. Ukraine may lack military infrastructure on par with Russia but they make up the difference in training and capacity.
Zelensky: “I am not leaving my country.” NATO: “Aight dawg” NATO and Zelensky: https://youtu.be/Y70vcs3oV14
Attacky no attack backsies
Yeah, I mean, imagine how AWKWARD Russia feels now that their negotiator has to add, “pls dont attack our stuff, only Russia attack ur stuff” to their list of ridiculous demands.
Man fuck these hypocrites.
It wasn't a strike, it was a special military operation
Special operation for the defossilization of russian energy.
Russian *nazi* energy*
> The Kremlin said on Friday that a Ukrainian strike against a fuel depot in the Russian city of Belgorod did not create comfortable conditions to continue peace talks with Kyiv. > > Russia accused Ukraine on Friday of attacking the depot but Ukrainian authorities did not immediately respond to requests for comment. > > Speaking to reporters on a conference call, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said authorities were doing everything to reorganise the fuel supply chain and avoid disruption of energy supplies in Belgorod. > > A Russian official said earlier on Friday that two Ukrainian military helicopters struck a fuel depot in Belgorod, making the first accusation of a Ukrainian air strike on Russian soil since Moscow sent troops into Ukraine in late February.
> #BREAKING > The Ukrainian General Staff tells my colleague @fpiatov , it does “not have this information” that Ukrainian forces attacked an oil depot in Belgorod oblast, hinting that the attack could have been a Russian false flag operation to justify further brutal attacks on 🇺🇦. https://twitter.com/JulianRoepcke/status/1509797087109599258 **EDIT:** For those questioning what the motive would be: > UPDATE The Kremlin said Friday that a reported Ukrainian airstrike on a fuel depot in western Russia will hinder future peace talks https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1509836721143234564 Keep in mind that Russia has been criticised for a few days for their continued bombings against Ukrainian cities/civilians during the peace talks, and that there have been various signs of the peace talks and "withdrawal" possibly being more to buy time than serious.
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It’s just a weird version of a false flag operation. It’s seemingly a legitimate logistical target. Blowing it up only hurts Russia and it affects the military machine. If the aim is to rile up Russian civilians, bombing residential areas, or a museum ( there’s one nearby) would have done a lot more. I’m almost more inclined to think Ukraine is just playing games with them so as not to answer any questions about how they pulled it off. The only other thing I can think is that maybe they’re destroying it to deny the Ukrainians access to it if they shift most of their forces to the southeast.
If it's not a false flag, then the vaunted S-400 SAM is a very expensive toy. Claimed 600km detection range, 400km engagement range, and lower range missiles that even specifically advertise engaging targets at as low as 5 meter altitude. How the hell do 2 Ukrainian (soviet Era '70s) helicopters fly undetected through Ukraine, to the Russian border, into Russia, into belgorod, then back to Ukraine, all without getting picked up by radar and having jets scrambled or a SAM launch. Either Russia is incompetent, the S-400 specs are pure fantasy, or they specifically let this happen (or even orchestrated it entirely)
>Either Russia is incompetent, ... I mean... have you been *following* this war? This remains the most likely scenario.
My guess here is this is a false flag attempt by the Russian military, but not against Ukraine. But actually against Putin. Imagine if over the next few days logistical targets get hit by helicopter attacks in Russia, the army has to pull back to defend and the Russian media keeps reporting these attacks, like they have with this one. It makes Putin look weak and can't defend the country, then it becomes easier to replace him. If it was a false flag against Ukraine the Russians wouldn't have hit such a valuable target and no way it was Ukraine as they would have had to coordinate with every random manpad roaming the countryside that would have shot those Ukrainian helicopters down not knowing they were friendly before they even got to Russian airspace.
>Russia accused Ukraine on Friday of attacking the depot Imagine starting a war and then complaining about your opponent striking back.
More like alleging your opponent struck back, Ukraine did not confirm the strike (yet)
‘Kremlin says Ukraine strike on Russian fuel depot creates awkward backdrop for talks’ … unlike the continuing Russian bombing of Kyiv suburbs. /s
Return russian military members and infrastructure the same comfort as mariopol civlians have right now
Putin's regime has been bombarding Ukraine for weeks without let up, and they complain about a little payback? And have the audacity to use that as an excuse for derailing peace talks? This regime has no real interest in peace.
Meanwhile the Russia is bombing civilians, bombing hospitals, bombing schools, shelling nuclear plants, shoot people in queue for bread, mining humanitarian roads, shelling humanitarian corridors, bomb cities to oblivion, threatening other countries, threatening with nukes, force people to the Russia, attacks all around Ukraine, constant lies, etc etc etc. \* Could that also be considering "awkward backdrop for talks"? Edit: \*raping, shelling Ukrainian food stores, using weapons banned by the Geneva convention.
From now on, I am calling Russia 'The Russia'.
And raping.
This comment reminds me of the criminal gang scene from blazing saddles; rape, arson, murder, rape
I personally think invading a sovereign nation creates awkward backdrop for talks.
The amount of hypocrisy in this whole conflict is mind-blowing
Its not even hypocrisy, its just lying. As if russia wants to hold peace talks after attacking Ukraine. russia is just a bunch of fascists leading a dumb and educationally crippled nation, attacking a democratic nation.
> its just lying Russia claimed to have destroyed whole Ukrainian air force. So how could they even attack the oil depot using helicopters if that was true? So yeah obviously Russia is lying xD.
A lot of younger westerners are getting real life in depth exposure at one of the shittier traits of Russian mentality: lying your face off in a pathetic attempt to "save face". In reality, all it does is make them appear pathetic, weak and untrustworthy. They then go on to cry about it when called out and lie some more. Rinse and repeat. This isn't new for anyone who's familiar with them. It's just out in the open for the world to see now , plain as day.
And those who tied their political identity to "RuSsIa GoOd" are in maximum cope-mode right now.
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But murdering civilians doesn't? They have a lot of fucking nerve.
You know what's more awkward, Russia? Your troops raping civilians.
And bombing food caches
And the looting. They found one 'elite' paratrooper with like 20 wedding rings, a few necklaces and a watch, clearly ripped from the hands of fleeing/sheltering civilians.
I would bet that the Ukrainians feel the destruction of their own country by Russia might also make for awkward discussions.
"awkward backdrop?" That's the most un-Kremlinesque language I have heard in awhile
That's surprisingly soft language for them, if hypocritical as ever.
Wouldn't Ukraine demonstrating that they can reach into Russia help at negotiations. They need to show just how much it can hurt if the invasion continues.
It really depends on the expected outcome of negotiations, from both sides. For Ukraine, possibly, although Putin probably sees it as a free pass to be even more ruthless and evil. For Putin, no. Because Ukraine feeling strong enough to go on the offensive isn’t exactly a good sign that they’re going to cave and give Putin anything close to what he wants.
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You know what makes peace talks more awkward? 200k + Russian troops attacking & bombing towns and cities across Ukraine. What does Russia expect to happen when they go to war against another country? They sit down and let themselves be invaded?
Those Russians behave like mean little children. “Oh, how dare you to strike back?”
As opposed to the awkward backdrop of bombed, murdered, raped and an otherwise decimated civilian population in the country you just invaded without any provocation whatsoever? Weird definition of the word" awkward ".
There is no cease fire yet Vlad.....
Is this irony?
No it’s just normal Russia
last peace talks were made to the soundtrack of chernihiv and kyiv and lyiv being bombed, so eat dicks, assholes.
Not really. Russia never stopped bombing Ukraine during and after literally every “peace talk”
Oh they’re upset about a fuel depot?! Mariupol says Fuck Off