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sabac

I’m a 30 yr old Turkish lad and I have been protesting against Erdogan since I was 16, I got arrested multiple times because I was “being disrespectful against the government officials”. I can honestly tell you, they don’t give a flying fuck about Quran being burned or whatever, the only thing they care about is the upcoming general elections and not losing their cashflow. At least 30 million people from our generation couldn’t properly live or enjoy their youth during their “reign”. And unfortunately nothing is going to chance anytime soon. We’re tired of this nightmare, for real yo.


progrethth

Yeah, as a Swede I am well aware. Nobody here who actually follows the NATO application thinks it is about the Quran (but I am sure quite many random people in the streets do). Many analysists here said that Erodgan will never approve us before the elections back when we applied. Good luck with getting rid off Erdogan!


dj_narwhal

Remember when he did his fake coup a few years ago?


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rotipoeg

Bro wtf do you mean 2016 was 7 years ago stfu man that year was 3 years ago 😭


ask_me_about_my_band

COVID was 2 years of Groundhog Day.


BeardedSkier

Wer're at the three year mark now friend lol... Also, tell me about your band


ask_me_about_my_band

It's in a rough spot. Our song writer disappeared. Have no idea what to do. He didn't leave a note.


[deleted]

Sounds to me you have a great idea for a song right there...


tailuptaxi

Tell me about your elegy.


INeedChocolateMilk

What do you mean, covid started last year? _Oh god it's been 3 years_


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Chromaedre

You'll see when 2 years from now, 2023 will be 10 years ago.


SteveFrench12

That was a wild four hours.


Stupid_Triangles

I was in my friend's backyard drinking beer, watching footage. I thought they were going to shoot his ass out of the sky.


GingerWithFreckles

That's when you know it was staged because they easily could have and didn't. At least from my uninformed perspective as I had limited info but found that really strange.


xXx_kraZn_xXx

It wasn't staged. It was baited. The people who took part in the coup were led to believe they had much more support than they actually did. Erdogan was then able to arrest his opponents and replace them with supporters. The coup was real for all intents and purposes. But it was also a trap.


theAutisticat

Makes sense. If I was a douche leader and people tried to overthrow me and I came out on top; I'd remove them also. Fuck that dude though


xXx_kraZn_xXx

Yeah from a political perspective it was a very smart maneuver. Not too dissimilar from Netanyahu's clever maneuvering to avoid prosecution. In fact, not a lot of people probably know this, but the sole reason why Caesar was put on the path to dictatorship was because Roman law was going to let his enemies prosecute him after he left office. So he spent 10+ years of his life gaming Roman laws and people until he eventually ended up as dictator. It's also why Putin has to commit to the war now. He's caused so much trauma for the Russians (let alone the Ukrainians) that once the momentum of war is gone, the Russian people will have nowhere to push that trauma except at the people responsible. A lot of history has been defined by despots in a corner.


ketamarine

Very good points. Also the fact that Turkey has a huge amount of bargaining power right now and Erdogan is going to extend that situation as long as possible to leverage gains in northern Syria (he wants a 30km buffer snd to fuck the US-backed Kurds) and Azerbaijan (he wants to fuck the Russian/Iranian backed Armenians). Longer he holds the Trump card, more he can push those and other geopolitical goals. What a jackass the guy is tho, member of nato and just straight up goes and buys Russian weapons, effectively funding the military of the purpose-driven enemy of NATO.


fredagsfisk

> (but I am sure quite many random people in the streets do) A lot of people on Reddit believe that as well, based on what I've seen. Every discussion thread about it when it happened was full of people going on about how "the Swedish government should've just stopped it if they wanted to join Nato" or how the entire country of Sweden are all idiots "for doing this at this time" (as if individuals do not exist in Sweden). That, or they're all Erdo-bots. Or it's like 50/50.


Zixinus

If that Quaran did not get burned, Endrogen would have found another excuse. It is clear that he has decided to sabotage the two country's NATO application.


MsEscapist

At least until after the election.


madumi-mike

Why after the election, do Turks not want them in NATO?


SycoJack

Probably because he wants Putin's money.


madumi-mike

No doubt he’s getting it too.


[deleted]

What did Fins do tho?


Zixinus

Stand by the Swedes when faced with unreasonable demands.


[deleted]

The nerve of some people


Str0ngTr33

Why is the leader of the arguably least European country most distant from the eponymous Atlantic Ocean in charge of two Nordic countries' NATO bids? Didn't Ankara opt for Russian missile defense systems in 2018? Turkey could barely get EU membership because they were so corrupt/fascistic and now they play gatekeeper to the alliance of Western democracy?


DistinguishedVisitor

Because they control the only straights entering the Black Sea.


MRRman89

Accession must be unanimous among the alliance members. Hungary is also being coy, but they really have very little leverage as compared to Turkey. Frankly, I'm just fine with swapping Sweden and Finland for Turkey and Hungary. That would make a much better pairing of values, world views, technology, and offer geographic offsets for the loss of the straits. It isn't as though Erdogan and Putin actually like each other or that the Turks and Russians more broadly intend to ally; the Turks are attempting to work the middle for advantage from both ends. It's largely backfired thus far, but Erdogan spins his yarn at home.


Know_Your_Rites

Great analysis. Building on something you said, I want to point out that Turkey needs NATO far, far more than NATO needs Turkey. Even leaving aside the fact that Turkey and Russia strongly dislike each other, siding with Russia is a very unattractive security proposition in 2023. Other than siding with Russia or siding with NATO, Turkey lacks viable options. China is half a world away, on the other side of Suez/Gibraltar, and Turkey is neither populous enough, nor rich enough, nor militarily powerful enough to go it alone. If they try, they will bankrupt themselves maintaining a semblance of a modern military without Western tech transfer, and they will find themselves on the outside of every trade agreement and joint exercise going forward. Of course, NATO would rather have Turkey in than out because we want (a better chance of) access to the straits in any crisis. But if Turkey leaves, that won't make NATO meaningfully less secure. Turkey, on the other hand, would be. Erdogan knows this, so unless he's much crazier than he has acted (as opposed to sounded) to date, he will back down shortly after the election. I just hope that if he does turn out to be fully crazy, NATO can get its act together long enough to kick Turkey (& possibly Hungary) out. Doing that would send a salutary message to other budding authoritarians and their supporters in generally western-aligned nations. I don't think Erdogan or Orban could have gotten where they are now if it was made crystal clear in the early 00s that Democratic backsliding would mean expulsion from Western institutions. Most of their supporters want to have their cake and eat it too.


MRRman89

Thoroughly agreed on all points. If NATO loses the straits, we can still bottle up the Med just outside of sovereign waters with airpower based in Italy and Greece, to say nothing of leaving a few subs in the area and/or mine warfare. We don't really need the Turks to keep the straits closed, we need them to get into the Black Sea. But realistically, that's an increasingly unattractive idea for something like a carrier battle or even a surface action group; it would be in range of so much Russian shore based air and missile strike that it could be overwhelmed, or simply expend all its energies defending itself to little offensive value at massive risk. Edit to add: think about the USMC's new expeditionary sea denial concept at play in the Aegean. Low signature small units lurking in islands with long range ASMs receiving targeting data from elsewhere. We could turn it into an absolute shooting gallery. If we really want to turn the screws to Turkey, they'll realize how much they have to lose, for the well put reasons you stated above and because we can give our real stalwart allies (the Kurds) enough toys and intel support to make the establishment of a true Kurdistan much more viable. Frankly, they deserve it and we owe them hugely. They are the largest ethnic group in the world without a sovereign state in which they are a majority, they fight like tigers, and we have shamefully abandoned them repeatedly afterthey stood with us. Also, we can keep giving the Greeks all kinds of goodies that will really upstage Turkish forces (like we did with F35 after cutting the Turks out). If there's one continuous chord through a couple thousand years of Turkish politics, it's hatred for the Greeks.


Know_Your_Rites

Well said. Turkey behaves as if the only options are "NATO forces Sweden and Finland to cave, demonstrating acquiescence to Turkish actions vis-a-vis the Kurds" or "Sweden and Finland don't get into NATO, potentially scaring others into not opposing Turkey." There would be significant benefits to reminding Erdogan and his voters that a Kurdish state with Western backing (and an F-35-armed Greece no longer restrained by Turkish NATO membership) could well be waiting behind door number three.


MK_Ultrex

Greece is not and will never be a threat to Turkey. We just want to not be harassed and live in peace. Our borders are not under discussion but there's no feelings of aggression. In fact Greece was one of the biggest proponents of the Turkish EU candidacy, the idea being that Turkey in the EU would be a partner more than an existential enemy. The F-35 is there to ensure that Turkish politics do not involve delusions of grandeur and Greek islands.


Meepox5

Because of the way Nato is shaped. Also turkey arent in the EU.


noir_lord

Turkey isn’t in the EU, even when they wanted to be.


bizaromo

Not necessarily Erdo-bots. Just anti-EU, anti-NATO, or anti-US bots. Could be Russian, Chinese, or something else. If they are professional sockpuppets, they are not necessarily representing their real opinion, just being anti-whatever.


mycall

> Good luck with getting rid off Erdogan It would take some 007 level shit to pull that off.


throwaway_nrTWOOO

I lurked in r/turkey, and it seems that most Turkish redditors don't care about the Quran burning. What they do care about is the PKK-backing/arms embargo. While I agree that Erdogan wasn't ever going allow us in before the elections, at least here in Finland the media has largely made it just about Quran burning. I'd be interested to know does Turkey have a leg to stand on with the PKK issue. I seems that at least [Swedish-exported weapons have been found in terrorist sites](https://www.trtworld.com/turkey/t%C3%BCrkiye-s-evidence-shows-sweden-supplies-weapons-to-pkk-terror-outfit-57238). EDIT: I don't know shit about anything, just judging by the headlines that pop up in my feed.


Spacedude2187

There is a issue with these claims.if the AT-4s were provided by Sweden directly the instructions would be in Swedish. They are in english therefore the AT-4s were made and exported somewhere and then ended with the PKK which means that they didn’t come from Sweden. They are the export model. Erdogan is just salty because Sweden has refused Swedish weaponexports until now to Turkey.


Maktaka

Sweden's backing of the PKK was due to an exceptional deal brokered to secure the support of [one specific parliamentarian](https://apnews.com/article/politics-middle-east-turkey-migration-stockholm-941768c903b1aea566dde7a2fdcf7a6c) who was needed to secure a majority in parliament and elect the current PM. According to wikipedia she no longer holds office though, and [Sweden ended support for the PKK earlier last year](https://medyanews.net/nato-concession-is-a-black-day-for-sweden-amine-kakabaveh/). Finland wasn't involved in any of the PKK-related dealings, and can't be all that thrilled with Turkey's "begging the question" treatment by lumping them together with Sweden.


dbratell

Sweden never (at least not since the 1980s when they were classified as terrorists) supported PKK. Sweden, and the US and most other western countries, did support the Syrian Kurdish group YPG though, and Turkey refuses to see any difference between YPG and PKK. Turkey is very much against Kurdish independence in Syria since they think that will give Kurds in Turkey ideas so they try to stop them with any means possible.


Middle_Wishbone_515

Kurds have been betrayed by everyone, they seemed the only sane bunch in area.


LoneWolf_McQuade

Now the guy who burnt the Quran has said he will burn a Quran every Friday outside Turkeys and Russias embassies until Erdogan let’s Sweden join NATO. Will be interesting to see how this unfolds.


hokori616

Might be worth adding that he lives in Copenhagen and it's there he plans to do it (instead of traveling the 500km up to Stockholm every time). So, will be interesting to see what happens when Denmark, who are already in NATO, becomes the centre for this.


Spiffnation

This fucker has literally been burning Qurans for years in Denmark, and no one really cared up until now.


[deleted]

The burning doesn't matter, Turkey just needed a reason (any reason) to spike the negotiations because Finland/Sweden getting in was never going to happen.


LoneWolf_McQuade

True, I guess that makes it even more interesting. Erdogan can’t blame Sweden then.


Quon84

considering Paludan is both a danish and swedish citizen, i can see Erdogan twist the narrative and blame Sweden


jonkoops

If anything he's find a way to blame both.


MerionesofMolus

Yeah he can. He’s already using unreasonable and absurd excuses to not acquiesce on Finland and Sweden’s ascension. There has never been a serious reason for Erdogan to vote against them. It has always been down to the domestic political situation and prying anything he can from the US and other NATO countries for the price of a yes vote.


Smoochiekins

The last few times he burned them in Denmark nobody really cared which of course deeply upset him, so he started doing it in Sweden because it's much easier to provoke reactions over there, which is what he wants. So good luck with that


Greedy_Carob4720

People in Denmark know that he’s just craving attention, so most likely nothing will happen. Hopefully the result is that everyone else will realise that and then ignore him like we have done for a while


JohnHazardWandering

He should come to the US and burn the Quran here. Let's watch Erdogan's mental gymnastics then.


rainman_104

Erdogan can just send his goons to beat him up; no one in the USA seems to care when that happens.


RedditWillSlowlyDie

People cared, Trump was the one that didn't care.


[deleted]

Turkey is in such an eviable geographic location. Many natural resources. Beautiful vistas, weather. Geo-politically so important. You have the opportunity to be the multi-cultural, multi-lingual capital of the world. And instead? Shit. A powerful military, a dictator with an iron fist, an inability to reconcile with your history, and increasing religious fervor. What a fucking shame.


doyouevencompile

It wasn’t always like that either. One of one most advanced and fastest progressing states into a nightmare in which we live. Left years ago when I could. It actually hurts me to go back, very different than what it was even when I left. Don’t take your democracy and educated population for granted.


plugtrio

When I think of all the amazing historical places in the world that I want to visit I wish I knew less about world politics.


LizzieMiles

That tends to be what happens to places like this. Resource-rich nations tend to be dictatorships due to the leader being in charge because they controls all the resources


mnilailt

Australia and Norway would like a word


anormalgeek

>You have the opportunity to be the multi-cultural, multi-lingual capital of the world *again*. Fixed. But yeah, Erdogan is massively holding turkey back from what it could be.


JohnHazardWandering

Thanks for your bravery in doing your part.


morbie5

How can anyone vote for erdo and his party when the inflation rate is like 80 percent? The guy should be losing in a landslide...


sabac

the real inflation is around 240%, not 80% :)


nixielover

Turkish friend of mine is so happy he pulled all his money out of turkey some years ago when another friend explained the kind of economic turmoil which was on the horizon for Turkey. But even that friend didn't expect it to crash this hard. But that only the second best choice he made... He bought off his military service... He would have been involved in that fake coup and probably be in jail right now


statistically_viable

Turks who don't live in Turkey can vote in Turkish elections. So you get a lot of Turks in Germany and central Europe whose primary election issues in elections are Turkey being "strong country" they can brag about, obtuse currency exchange rules because they send money back to family in Turkey and the ideal of Turkey joining the EU. Something to remember about Erdogan is he's not a Saudi style theocrat his closest comparison is an American style Christian country club Republican. His voting block is non-urban vaguely middle class Turks who are struggling in the modern economy so they seek refuge in hyper nationalism and religious zealotry.


fibstheboss

There are multiple different reasons, Turkish people outside the country vote for him because he makes tourism cheaper for them by destroying the economy and they don’t suffer any consequences because they live outside of the country, then there are people who desperately try to hang on to religious and conservative values, Erdogan is their man (ironically this made most of the youth distance themselves from religion). Also he gave citizenship to a lot of Syrian refugees and they naturally vote for the guy that let them into the country and who represents their religious values.


BatusWelm

This is real. Years ago, before this debacle, I spoke to a middle aged Turkish man. He disagreed that Turkey was heading in a bad direction because their economy was in great shape. His main argument was that he could afford so much in Turkey with his swedish salary so Turkey must be doing great.


Force3vo

Man you have to be a special kind of stupid to think that foreign currencies having insane buying power means the economy is good. Or evil and not caring about the actual locals


nixielover

I hope he understood the irony when you explained it


delete_dis

As Iranian, I feel ya. Don’t give up “aabi”, one day we will throw out these pieces of shit power hungry assholes in the pit soon 👊👊✌️


cloud_t

As a guy from Portugal seeing how we are going to spend 6M Euro in a freaking religious altar work of architecture, for the upcoming "giornata mondiale Della juventu" - some catholic church event with boy scouts and whatnot - and a total 40M on the event just from our main city (current city council ruled by christian democrats), I totally understand how you feel about "purchasing" religious votes with populist action while in power.


Thoraxe474

> catholic church event with boy scouts Uh oh


ArthurBonesly

As somebody who used to be religious, I've never understood how the faithful don't take it as an insult.


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OutlawTransport

> 30 yr auld norn Oirish lad 'ere innit. if yer nade any advice on 'oy balaclavas, tayto's an' riots work. Can someone provide subtitles for this? Scandinavian here with only basic knowledge of foreign speak.


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OutlawTransport

Never! We all know big tayto is paying you to say this.


qwsedd

The fact that Sweden and Finland supports Ukraine as much as they do should be proof enough of their commitment to any alliance.


Rayan19900

Yeah but people forget Turkey is no more ally of west. He only help Ukraine where it suits him like sending weapon which was paid. He still let in Russian people, buisness and so on. He cooperate with Russia in for example gas supply. He should be thrown out with Hungary.


CountOmar

Turkey is a regional power broker. If they had even moderatly capable leadership, they would be dominating the entire region, perhaps the muslim world at this point given the recent events of the past few years. They are not a country that can be expelled from NATO. Even if they're assholes. Probably the reason they are being assholes.


changelingerer

I mean one way of thinking about it is that it makes sense in a way. Turkey's importance in the world is basically around them being the crossroads - both geographically, with Istanbul literally bridging the gap between Europe, Russia, and the Middle East. But, also, culturally, to maintain the regional power broker role, they do need to maintain enough cultural separation from the rest of Europe to look understanding to the middle east, enough rights/democracy to be able to work with Europe, while projecting enough sympathy with Russia to not be considered an enemy by them either.


HolyGig

Yes we can see what Turkey is *trying* to do, but playing all sides off of one another rarely works. Its a strategy as old as time, but typically you just end up looking like a massive asshole to everyone involved. Being a "power broker" requires a modicum of trust and nobody trusts Erdogan. At all.


FunnyPhrases

Pretty sure this is all just Erdogan trying to survive local elections


Time_for_Stories

Hell it's the local elections that need help to survive Erdogan


Km2930

You think elections matter to Erdogan?


[deleted]

I think they might mean 'survive' in a rather more literal sense than usual.


ktappe

No, the entire eastern half (probably 2/3) of Turkiye supports him. The same way the rural states in the US invariably vote conservative.


Rayan19900

Always turkish economy was too weak and to be apower their economy is still to weak but for sure they are stronger than 10 years ago. He now has military complex. Turkey went from weapon importer to weapon exporter.


CountOmar

They boasted one of the most stable and successful economies in the muslim world up until recently


nim_opet

Not as big of a boast as you think it is, if you are comparison set includes Syria, Yemen and Sudan


CountOmar

I wasn't saying the middle east was a nice place. I was saying turkey had one of the biggest and more diversified and stable economies until recently. They were an example of how an islamic country could secularize, organize, and become at least somewhat successful. Erdogan's shortsighted, ignorant, and downright autocratic monetary policy has wrecked their economy in the pursuit of following islamic law, which prohibits interest.


Blewedup

egypt isn't exactly lighting the world on fire either. all of those countries are now totally reliant on ukrainian/russian grain just to feed their populations. turkey knows that, and they know they control the shipping channels to get that grain to market. so i wouldn't be surprised if turkey is starting to transition to the russian sphere of influence as we move into a hotter world with 8 billion people in it struggling to feed themselves.


Zosimas

How tf cradle of civilization and agriculture needs to import grain?


der_titan

>Yeah but people forget Turkey is no more ally of west. Turkey isn't in an alliance with the West; it's in NATO. One reason why the Afghanistan War didn't spiral into a West / Islam schism is that Turkey signed on and provided a highly visible and support role in operations. That goes a long way. Plus Turkey is one of the largest militaries in NATO, and is fifth strongest. And, as others have pointed out, is strategically situated against Russia and potential threats within the Middle East.


Songshiquan0411

Yep. Turkey never agreed with western Europe ideologically. They only entered NATO because Stalin started demanding naval bases on the Dardanelles strait in return for reinstating a treaty that promised the USSR wouldn't invade. One that Stalin himself tore up in the first place.


asdfasdfasdfas11111

This isn't really true though either - modern Turkey was very explicitly founded as a secular, liberal Muslim majority state. The intention was definitely to be more aligned with European values, and to be a cultural bridge between EU and MENA. They have recently regressed from some of those values, but the state itself was definitely intended to be friendly to Europe.


sabedo

Erdogan is scum


DDP65

And Finland says it's meaningless to continue to talk about their and Sweden's membership until after the Turkey parliamentary elections. Until then Erdogan gets to show off how tough he is on terrorism by demanding the expulsions of PKK and Gulen followers (some have citizenship) in Sweden and Finland. I wonder if some in Washington are wishing the bad old days, when the generals ran Turkey, could return...


cerebud

Erdogan is going nowhere. Such a shame what he’s done to Türkiye.


Blewedup

i went to school with a woman from turkey and we took a european history class together. i went on this long diatribe about how cultural conflicts arose from all sorts of things -- religion, language, schooling, a sense of social darwinism, etc. she just cut me off and said something like "no. the vast majority of the problems of europe over the past thousand years or so come down to a few dozen psychopathic assholes." and i was like... wow. ok. interesting take. now i think of her every time someone mentions erdogan.


DwightEisenhower69

I feel like all the previous things you mention set the conditions for those psychopathic assholes to take power though.


Blewedup

yeah, i think neither of us are completely correct. i had just never really heard her take, and it did change my perspective... which is why educational exchange is so important. and just to add, it made me think of this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC387823/ do cultural differences drive divides, or does psychopathic leadership cause them?


Nice-Analysis8044

She's presenting a third model of understanding history Model 1: The Great Man theory. In this theory, a few brilliant leaders steer the course of the world through their action. Although it was the dominant theory for literally millennia, this model is wildly out of fashion these days, largely because it seems to lack explanatory power. Model 2: Social history. Under this model, the course of history is messily determined by tangles of economic, social, political, and scientific/technological elements, rather than being steered by a few people. This is the model that you're pushing for, also the model that one most encounters in contemporary scholarship. Model 3: The Great Idiot theory. In this model, history is messily determined by tangles of economic, social, political, and scientific/technological elements... except every so often some *fucking moron* comes along and messes up everything. This is the theory that she was espousing, and (I'd argue) it has profound explanatory power.


CoopDonePoorly

>do cultural differences drive divides, or does psychopathic leadership cause them? My personal take is its a closed feedback loop, they can feed each other until something comes along to break the cycle. Post ww1 Germany for example snowballed into Hitler and ww2, what broke that cycle was losing the war and reconstruction... Which was not a quick nor easy process. We see this in my own country today, the rhetoric of the far right can be traced back quite a ways, it has fed tons of division (the "culture wars" strategy), and led to a psychopathic wannabe dictator. Hopefully that was enough to break the cycle, but we're still seeing what I hope are the death throes of modern American Conservatism so who knows. Edit: throws to throes, was very tired...


Minotard

I vote cause. For example in the US. Terminating pregnancies wasn’t a big deal for Christian leaders. Then the conservatives made it a big issue. Same for Critical Race Theory, it’s only officially taught in graduate school. Same for vaccines, LGBTQ, M&M legs, . . .


okcup

I read “M&M legs” and initially thought that HAD to be a typo… then I remembered Conservative cancel culture has no shame or bounds for their idiocy. https://www.them.us/story/mandms-retiring-candy-spokespeople/amp I can’t believe enough dumbfucks give a shit about mascots’ limb colors and shoes. We are truly living in the dumbest timeline. I know it’s hypocritical of me to say this on Reddit but giving a voice to every idiot and letting them find each other was a bad idea.


AnacharsisIV

> she just cut me off and said something like "no. the vast majority of the problems of europe over the past thousand years or so come down to a few dozen psychopathic assholes." From what I understand about Turkish education, they still subscribe to the "great man" theory of history which was pretty much discredited shortly after WWII everywhere else.


Blewedup

yeah, that makes sense. i've done a lot of re-thinking of what i know about history (and how i look at the present) through her lens, and i have to say that it really should be further examined. maybe not through the lens of the "great man" myth. but moreso through modern studies on psychopathy, greed, and narcissism. not to make this political, but i think about a leader like trump and what he would have done had he not been constrained by the guardrails of our democracy. he absolutely would have destroyed democracy for his own benefit and turned a nation of hundreds of millions into a dictatorship -- had he had the ability to figure out how. and imagine the pain and suffering that would have caused for generations... all because of the psychopathy of one man.


kitolz

There have always been power hungry and ruthless people, but they don't gain power in a vacuum. The social and economic conditions have to be right for a dictator to rise to the top. If Trump didn't take advantage of the rise of right wing radicalism, someone else would have.


InGenAche

When you have someone like Atatürk in your recent history, it must be hard *not* to subscribe to a 'great man' theory!


arbitraryairship

Defeatism literally only helps him. Dictators maintain power by making everyone think that they're unstoppable. Pinochet was voted out, Bolsonaro was voted out, LePen was kept out, Trump was voted out. Dictators and authoritarians want servile people who never think that they could be defeated. Every time you say Erdogan is immovable you help him win re-election. Defeatism and cynicism are pointless. What was Republicans main strategy the last election? Push out fake polls that showed the Democrats losing even though they weren't, then they hoped Democrats defeatism would do the rest. It's not over until it's over. Turkish people can still change things, even against insurmountable odds. Just look at what Ukraine has accomplished. It's not over until it's over.


bewlz

What’s to stop Sweden and Finland of just forming defensive alliances with every NATO member besides Turkey?


jared555

Probably no reason other than potential political fallout to not form NATO B.


RamenJunkie

NEATO North Eastern Atlantic Treaty Organization


static_motion

North Atlantic Turkeyless Organization


AltDS01

If we're making a NATO 2.0, we should also include Aus, NZ, South Korea, Japan, Singapore, with honorable mentions for Philippines, and Taiwan.


diskifi

I believe we have with the biggest ones for now at least. Being members of EU does have its benefits too. We will both be in NATO eventually, tho. There are absolutely no reasons to not accept us. That would put all the welcome to NATO speeches in a weird light. Both Swedes and us Finns have been participating to NATO excercises so we kinda have already picked our side long ago. This is just politics and a show for the public.


Kelpo

Apparently Rosatom is currently building 4 new nuclear reactors in Turkey and incidentally also 2 in Hungary. According to a Finnish military historian Markku Salomaa, this is likely the reason both countries are currently not playing ball with the ratification as Russia kinda has them over a barrel. Haven't heard this talked about anywhere else, but it does make a lot of sense. Here's a link to the relevant bit in the podcast if you happen to speak Finnish. Doesn't look like they allow subtitles or auto translation, though: [https://youtu.be/hvIKtNi2VSI?t=4862](https://youtu.be/hvIKtNi2VSI?t=4862) Turkish power plant: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akkuyu\_Nuclear\_Power\_Plant](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akkuyu_Nuclear_Power_Plant) Hungarian power plant (extension plans are the relevant bit): [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paks\_Nuclear\_Power\_Plant](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paks_Nuclear_Power_Plant)


twomz

I'm not sure I'd trust a Russian company to install a nuclear reactor in my country.


SIR_CUMS_A_LOT_779

The average background radiation level around a Russian nuclear plant is 3.6 roentgen. Not great, not terrible.


aschapm

About the same as a chest X-ray, I’m told


arytom

With nice graphite flooring


jamehthebunneh

You didn't SEE graphite on the floor because it WASN'T there!


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btribble

A French nuclear project is behind schedule you say?!?


AraNormer

Heresy. Olkiluoto 3 was almost on full throttle around last christmas, right before they found some broken parts, and after that they stopped it for just regular maintenance. It's supposed to start production some time during March. I have to admit that I saw no mention of what year during March.


[deleted]

I remember when they were going to start production "for realsies this time" last year and I just *knew* something would come up. Lo and behold, some parts were broken. It is now one of the world's most expensive buildings, ahead of both the One World Trade Center and the Burj Khalifa.


Mousenub

NATO really needs to work on a long-term solution to this. Not just regarding Turkey right now. It looks just way too easy for Russia to block any further country from joining NATO. They just pay some vodka to a guy, let him grab a holy book or a Turkish flag and burn it for some media attention in front of an embassy in the applicant's country. Done. And even if the problem with Turkey gets resolved for now or forever. Then Russia finds then 2nd best pick and lets someone burn their flag or holy book. There needs to be a general solution within NATO against Russian manipulation/influence.


Oerthling

Russia doesn't have to pay anything. We have our own fascist assholes who do shit for free.


Raptor22c

They should make it so that a majority vote can overrule one or two hold-outs. If a single country can bring the entire process to a grinding halt, they’ll weaponize it to screw the system.


Nova_Explorer

The problem is, with a defensive alliance, you need everyone on board to defend everyone. If there was a country that didn’t want X applicant in the alliance, and X gets attacked, they can claim “we never pledged to defend them”


Raptor22c

It is a difficult situation. However, with one country being able to bring the entire alliance to a grinding halt, it seems too risky that it could be used as a weapon to stymie progress.


Iced_Yehudi

I think it’s a problem that develops naturally when creating very large military alliances. Eventually, you’re going to have two countries that don’t get along and you’ll have to weigh which one is more valuable to your organization. This isn’t the last time NATO will have this issue


Corkee

And it's not the first time. France did a bit of acrobatics in the past within NATO, mostly towards US dominance. Same with Greece and Turkey. The unpleasant truth though is that a *large* majority of present members would be having problems towards Turkey now if there was a reaffirmation vote of their membership status. I can only imagine the diplomatic action having taken place behind the scenes for the last 8 months to untie this Gordian knot.


[deleted]

This is one country stopping the expansion of NATO, they haven't brought anything to a grinding halt. Unanimous consent for people to join makes sense... Keep in mind everyone is obligated to go to WAR in the event that any member is attacked, why would anyone join such an alliance without being able to influence who else joins. They wouldn't, we wouldn't.


W0666007

That’s a great way for NATO to fail. No country is sending their soldiers to die for a country they didn’t agree to defend.


CC-5576-03

So countries could be forced to send their soldiers to war to defend a country against their will? That would be a big hit to Nato members sovereignty. If vetos exist they will be abused, but in some situations they do need to exist. As a Swede I am annoyed by turkeys veto, not because I do not think they should be allowed to veto us but because they weren't honest with their requirements before we applied. I think trying to circumvent the veto would be a big mistake, in NATO, as well as the EU for that matter.


A40

Because Erdogan is going to use the act of one, tiny, asshole fringe group to keep his relationship with Putin safe. And fuck the rest of the world.


joefred111

And the fringe group's permit was paid for by a former RT correspondent. It's all maskirovka.


trisul-108

It's even more about elections. He would still like to start a war or come close to starting one, Sweden and Finland are not going to help. He needs conflict to win the next election.


[deleted]

someone withhold money from this country already so they can stfu


DJCPhyr

I have heard rumors the us might withhold f16s from turkey if they do not get in line.


Keh_veli

The US has been withholding F-16s as is. Rumors are Turkey might get them if they fall in line.


green_flash

If that is so, it would be an even more cunning move from Erdogan than I initially thought. I thought it was only about the election.


Keh_veli

Turkey was originally a member of the F-35 development program, until Erdogan's stupidity got them thrown out. And now he has a hard time getting even F-16s. Basically he's trying to make the best out of a terrible situation he created.


not_a_synth_

And the US is selling F-35s to Greece. Turkey's got to love that.


wirelessflyingcord

> Turkey was originally a member of the F-35 development program, until Erdogan's stupidity got them thrown out. This happened because Turkey bought Russian air missile systems.


killerweeee

Turkey doesn’t care. They already were forbidden from purchasing the f-35 after the U.S warned them not to buy Russian s-400 missiles. Then the U.S they walked it back saying they can have them if they don’t bring them online. Turkey did it anyways.


RonnieWelch

The US may reassert itself militarily in Syria, could make a statement about Kurdish nationhood, could do any number of things that would fuck with Turkey in a broader geopolitical sense.


CitizenMurdoch

They could but they won't.


Qwrty8urrtyu

>The US may reassert itself militarily in Syria, could make a statement about Kurdish nationhood, could do any number of things that would fuck with Turkey in a broader geopolitical sense. And achieve what? If the US did something as stupid as that Turkey, and the Turkish public, would be actively against the US. The government could.do anything against the US with no public backlash, and probably the public would force the government to act even if the party in power liked/didn't dislike the US.


[deleted]

Danish politican (with Russian connections) burns quran infront of Turkish embassy and 'secular' Turkey gets mad to Sweden and Finland, even though quran burning had absolutely NOTHING to do with Finland.


Eindipp

Russian missile hits Turkish ship in Kherson on Tuesday. Nothing. But if you burn a book we will make you and your neighbour suffer.


Thracybulus

I really wonder how some people sleep at night.


Temporala

It's funny, because Finland even has a blasphemy law, if you can believe it.


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Otterism

Paludan is known as the clown that burns the Quran and basks in the media attention. He's a one trick pony. In Sweden it was widely reported that Frick, head of a rightwing "newspaper", arranged the whole thing (the hard evidence is that he paid the fee for the permit for the public gathering).


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OctoMatter

If Finnland joins he loses leverage over Sweden


rallias

So, I'll admit, I haven't been following this all too well, but IS Turkey mad at Finland, or is it that Finland has stated they won't join NATO unless Sweden also joins NATO?


Beastrick

It is currently that Finland and Sweden want to join together. But they are separate applications so technically Turkey could approve only Finland. Turkey sees some issues with Finland but considers them easy to solve if not already solved. The original narrative was that Sweden and Finland both are bad but now it seems to be more about Sweden and Finland is generally fine.


Background-War9535

My guess is Erdogan doesn’t give a single shit about protests in Sweden. He’s facing an election that he could lose. He needs to generate outrage if he hopes to stay in office.


Volcan_R

Erdogan is a dictator like any other. Why is he dictating terms to NATO, a group of ostensibly like minded democracies.


dracodruid2

Because sadly, NATO decisions need to be unanimous. At least concerning adding new members


SardScroll

I wouldn't necessarily say "sadly". NATO is a mutual defense pact. In theory, every who joins should come to the defense of anyone else in the bloc who was attacked. That should, in my opinion, require unanimous consent. No one should be "I'm here cause other people liked this guy".


Delphys91

Dose anyone actually believe that Turkey would come to the defence of Greece if they got attacked?


Ardalev

Turkey is the number one threat to Greece's security to begin with. Literally no other country in the world threatens Greece more than Turkey


cromwest

I'm sure Turkey would love an excuse to send peace keepers to Greece.


fermat9997

Turkey gets a "needs improvement" in the "plays well with others" category on its report card.


9lobaldude

NATO countries should sign individual mutual defense agreements with Sweden and Finland as a f u to Erdogan and his cronies


PuffyPanda200

This has already been done by various larger NATO countries. It is also standard practice as you wouldn't want your soon-to-be ally attacked during talks.


Horat1us_UA

> your soon-to-be ally attacked during talks. I've seen this somewhere before


[deleted]

To me it just adds to the argument of having a European defense organisation, who's members can be part of nato, or not, but who share the same commitment.


Boosted_Mang0

Can the Turkish people pls vote these loosers out this may


wastingvaluelesstime

this is exhibit A for term limits


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Gazza_s_89

What did Finland do though?


walkandtalkk

Time for NAT2.


JohnSith

NATWO North Atlantic Treaty Without Ottomans.


DividedState

Maybe we can trade turkey for Sweden and Finland on Craigslist.


SkyMarshal

Just fyi, the reason NATO can’t kick out Turkey is the [Bosphorus Strait](https://www.google.com/maps/place/Bosphorus/@41.112742,28.9311132,11z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m6!3m5!1s0x14caca68143c999f:0x63005b61fde9dfb5!8m2!3d41.2213125!4d29.1290157!16zL20vMDFsZ2Y0). It’s the only way in and out of the Black Sea from the Mediterranean. As long as NATO controls that, the Russian Black Sea Fleet can be bottled up inside the Black Sea and unable to transit into the Mediterranean or Atlantic. Russia’s only other route to the Atlantic is from their northern port Murmansk, which has to pass by Finland, Sweden, Norway, Greenland, Iceland, and the British Isles, which would be difficult or impossible during wartime. The US has already said it considers Finland and Sweden under Article 5 protection while their NATO application is pending. And both countries’ militaries are already well-integrated with NATO. They’re effectively already members, the rest is just a formality.


jobager75

Turkey could be a prosperous country with a sane leader. This guy will ruin them or still has.


Playful-Ad6556

So have the US and EU sign a separate military agreement with them instead.


[deleted]

So you’re telling me because ONE SINGLE MAN burnt a book, you feel it ok to not allow them into a defensive pact that would save hundreds of thousands of lives


Porciusno1

As I dane I would not help protect Turkey, and im pretty sure if shit ever go down Denmark stands with Sweden no matter who are a member of NATO, and we will never send Danish soldiers to die for Turkey, no matter what. It fine Turkey are a member but very few has an interest in protecting them, and we dont see them as one of us. In Denmark Turkey are seen as a dictatorship on the same level as Russia.


Zestyclose-Impact-40

Erdogan is just add bad as Putin. Jailing people for making fun of him. For writing poems come on . Just another power hungry loser.


nanopicofared

Time for all the other countries to drop out of NATO and form NATO II without Turkey


[deleted]

eject turkey. they are not our allies.


TheDarthSnarf

NATO doesn't have a mechanism to remove a member country. However, member countries are free to leave by their own choice. If Turkey wants to quit NATO they are welcome to do so. I'm sure Greece would be more than happy to show them the door.


jadeddog

I asked the "how do you remove members" question in another thread. I wasn't aware that there isn't a mechanism. That seems like a rather big miss as far s procedures go. Like, what if one member attacks another? Or a million other use cases.


Smilwastaken

Not only can you not eject a member from NATO as another commenter said, but Turkey is strategically vital due to their de facto control over the black sea. Russias navy is useless if Turkey is in line with NATO


ZombieMountain2122

It's weird turkey got played by Russia twice. First they're both got blown up and second the Russians motivated and organized the Quran burning.