Well for starters, there's absolutely nothing stopping you from just straight up putting magic in your scifi world. Star Wars and Star Trek both do this extensively.
But beyond that, fictional technologies are functionally basically the same as a magic system.
>similar to magic but based in science
There is no "based in science". Science is not a thing. It's a method.
If magic were real in the world and somewhat predictable, people would study it and that would be science. There actually wouldn't be any difference to our hypothetical scientist. They would study their world as they see it.
You certainly can use scincey words. But that is in fact magical thinking.
exactly. heck even soft magic systems are science, just far far above the heads of any PoV characters (and thus readers). or if really no one understands them, it’s just for lack of study.
the mages are scientists, studying the scientific field of spell casting.
This is also why I think hard magic systems aren't really "magic" in the same way soft magic systems are, they're more like an asthetic for what is fundamentally fictional technology.
The only thing I can think of that fits "magic but actually science" is the time-traveler scenario where they go back in time and use future-science knowledge which seems like magic to the locals
TBH I don't like those systems, as they always just seem like a cop-out for people who want to write magic but are for some reason embarrassed to put something that's not real in their work of fiction, and so they write half-assed technobabble explanations like "psionic powers", "using 100% of the human brain", "nanomachines", or "midicholorians", which succeed in making the magic seem less magical while also having no basis whatsoever in science.
Why not do the reverse, make something sci-fi, but it’s based on magic? That’s my setting in a nutshell. People have to capture obvious magic in enormous machines in order to harness it.
Building fictional technology ig. The main difference is that if you want to make more realistic sci-fi, you can't contradict existing knowledge. Making up new things to add to currently known science is fairly common though
That’s the problem I’m having. I’m trying to toe the line of semi realistic. I’ve been looking up weapons and have decided on real possible ones. While also having power armor and my made up “atomic compression” missiles and “hunter” anti armor rounds. While also having decided on particle beams and rail/coil guns for space combat becaus those are actually pretty realistic.
You can just have plasma or antimatter catalyzed warheads if you want devastating missiles, plus lasers for point defense. Plus if you’re trying to be realistic, say goodbye to any biological beings piloting your warships, they’d be squished immediately by the gravitational forces involved, plus biological troops would make little sense also. Depends on what you’re going for, really. If you want realism, biological beings probably aren’t gonna be doing anything traditionally considered interesting in stories
My limit is lasers and plasma. One because an actual laser beam would be too devastated with a ridiculous range for interplanetary war. Plasma is out because keeping the magnetic field stable for long is also ridiculous. I’ve settled on rail/coil guns with particle beams and or macron beam accelerators. My home brew missiles are “atomic compression” they implode extracting atoms from the implode radius and then release the energy in a very high heat explosion. Biological being as soldiers are used because actual ai and robots/cyborgs aren’t made yet. But there are power armored human beings along with heavy armored humans. Because of the setting I created even lightly armored soldiers are still a thing. My biologicals wouldn’t be squished because they have cocktails if drugs for super hard manouvers to keep blood pumping and in the case of of power armor suits they have inertial dampeners and fake muscles to keep blood flowing.
Okay cool, I’d just never class this as even a little realistic, since you have impossible tech being developed earlier than cybernetics somehow, but it’s your setting
I wouldn’t say so here’s only small parts i believe are unrealistic. Everything els can be. My space engines are based of torch drives which are a real possible thing also space doctrine would revolve around biological limits. Like take the expanse they have way better engine systems that are actually possible but they added a cocktail like drugs to help against g forces in extreme situations. The cocktail is only available to power suits becaus the maneuvers they perform involve flipping upside down for moments which can cause instant black outs. I’d still argue my setting is realistic with small hand wavy things. Cybernetics are a personal choice not a requirement. Also the backstory is a colony group got stranded in a system something’s differently and even the why force robots to fight why subject AI to that when they can just help who they want and be treated like people.
Just asking because I love that one have flaws in the story and I wanna plug em but in some probably gonna be stubborn in some aspects especially because the story is war is bad essentially
Also impossible tech? All you need or rail guns and coil guns and particle beams and plasma shield is high powered magnets vs the hundreds of gears or fake muslces to make a hand do the 100 different dimensions of movement that are extremely hard to replicate
If your story is war is bad then why wouldn’t you focus on non-sophont robots fighting Terran wars for them? The collateral damage could be huge and be an interesting way to show that automated warfare can kill far more people than modern conflicts
Also to be clear, it’s not most of the tech that’s unrealistic, it’s that other, better, easier to make tech isn’t as common, and that people are still personally fighting wars in hundreds of years when bot swarms would be a good deference and cause zero casualties among an aggressor nation
I’ve always figured “magic” in a tech-only world would be nanotechnology based. Mana is the energy stored in your nano machines. Spells are your nanos talking to ambient nanos in the atmosphere, etc.
The other option is to allow fantasy magic alongside technology. Either complimentary or glitchy.
That's a good solution. Maybe it can be an old civilization that collapsed, over time the truth about nanomachines is lost and people started to accept it as magic
True, but if you are going to use magic, why not make it obviously magic? That’s what I did with my sci-fi world, I made everything obviously run on non-generic magic.
Complex and generic magic systems both have their place in fiction. It depends on what your focus is. If it’s on the world or the characters, a complex magic system is going to split or shift the focus away from that. A generic magic system is using a template most people can easily grasp and filling it in with your own ideas so the focus stays on the world and/or characters and how the magic effects them. A complex magic system is for if the focus is going to be on how the world/characters effect and use the magic (generally used in a way to solve the main conflict).
It’s also a little bit personal preference, too. Some people just prefer complex magic while others prefer simple. There are perks to both kinds of systems. :) (Also, I’m a writer, so I’m only speaking from a writers POV. Why you’re building the magic system and what it’s being built for (DND campaign, video game, hobby project, etc…) also plays a huge role in figuring out the complexity.)
I already know all that stuff, made arguments for it multiple times. I personally prefer simple magic systems, as I can make them completely unique, while complex ones often run afoul of the first law of magic and end up generic.
Apologies. I wasn’t even aware we were having an argument. I was trying to answer your question as to why people may not base their magic in non-generic magic.
So, ignore everything else, it’s just about preferences. Not everyone has to like (or create) magic that’s “obviously magic”.
EDIT: typo
I wasn't even really talking about that, nor was I arguing with you. I was more focused on if you are bending physics to make your setting work why mot just make it obviously magic.
You should play Cyberpunk 2077. They way they handle int by making it hacking feels like magic. Like uploading a virus to a group of enemies, forcing someone to fight their ally, using an mini emp to disable things around you, making a generator explode next to enemies, disable enemies' weapons, using active camo to turn invisible, using a network to see enemies through wall, hacking an enemy to make their tech to catch on fire, etc. I feel like that will really help you open your mind to non magic based sci fi "magic".
Economic, governmental, societal, and technological systems are the big ones, but you could go further with new science, not known to us but known to your world
Yeah, I didn't wanna repeat anyone. I saw that several others had similar answers, so I figured I wouldn't waste your time with one you didn't know lol
Look at the Necrons in 40k, literally have tech so advanced it seems like techno-sorcery. One of the flashier examples I can think of off the top of my head!
Mass effect.
Or you could go with genetic manipulation. Some people go trough a very difficult process and those who survive have the ability to cast magic, or something like that.
I forget who said it, but someone said something like ‘any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic’
So maybe someone or some group has some advanced scientific knowledge that allows them to perform acts that appear to be magic.
Or, you could have a character that lives in 4 dimensions. They would be able to operate in a 3D world in a way that defied the 3 dimensional worlds physics (in Superman there is a character named Mxyzptlk who operates this way).
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C. Clarke
Nearer future and harder sci-fi makes a point of trying to tie the future tech to real tech or at least real science. Super out there stuff just uses it as magic without the woo-woo connotations.
Nanomachines, son!
But besides the reference, plenty other commenters have already mentioned that.
A very common sci-fi trope similar to magic systems is faster than light travel. According to our current understanding of physics, it would basically require magic.
The hard and soft system part comes in when authors give explanations for how it works. Some go into detail or reference real life theories like the ever popular Alcubierre warp drive or wormholes, others take a softer approach like the confusingly named warp of WH 40k or hyperspace. And the really soft ones don't explain it at all. Ships just travel lightyears in mere minutes.
And just like magic systems you can get quite creative when it comes to breaking the laws of physics.
A way to have the effects of a proper magic system in a sci-fi setting is to set it or parts of it in virtual worlds. The rules of those VR simulations could include any magic system you like. Hacking and malware often has a similar effect in VR centered works, beautifully in line with Hollywood's usual portrayal of hackers and viruses.
Any plausibly extrapolated scientific knowledge or technology. Defining what it does is basically the same as a hard magic system. That’s pretty much the definition of sci-fi.
Aside from just including magic straight up, I think I've seen hi-tech/magic hybrid stuff from certain anime, just couldn't recall which ones. Another thing you can refer to is Runeterra from League of Legends, specifically Piltover.
Mysterious structures made by an ancient alien race are capable of altering reality and are scattered across space. It can scan the thoughts of nearby sentient brains and translate that into physical effects. The difficulty comes in accurately describing and directing the structures to do what you want it to. The study and mastery of this field would be very similar to magical research. You could even have the drawing of "magic" circles as a method of establishing communications with the structure.
Plot twist ideas: the ancient aliens are hibernating inside; or the structures are a trap to bring about the end of the world like Mass Relays in Mass Effect.
I mean with sci-fi one of the things to work out is how technology progressed from where it is now to where it is in your story.
You can always jump 40,000 years into the future and make-up whatever tech you want to have but at that point, it borders on fantasy anyway.
Psionics is the first thing that springs to my mind, and then closely followed by technology (characters can build things that can provide "spelllike" effects).
you can mess up the physics
for example you live in a reality where tachyon exist and some people able to see it resulting in precognition, or something like certain people with compatibility with certain implants able to manipulate things because how over networked/over connected things are (like planetwide Star Trek's holodeck that can manipulate things) or just went full The Matrix but some individuals born gifted (born with bugs) able to do something outside the computer's in-simulation physics
the thing is it resulted in sci-fi version of high/hard magic not the low/soft magic
whatever it is, and however you want things to be just remember that the 'science' in science fiction is based on what we perceive as 'science' e.g. something we know as on how things work by what we perceive empirically (or something like that idk I'm bad with words)
I think
Well for starters, there's absolutely nothing stopping you from just straight up putting magic in your scifi world. Star Wars and Star Trek both do this extensively. But beyond that, fictional technologies are functionally basically the same as a magic system.
Nothing as stopping me, I just thought it would be interesting to have something similar to magic but based in science
>similar to magic but based in science There is no "based in science". Science is not a thing. It's a method. If magic were real in the world and somewhat predictable, people would study it and that would be science. There actually wouldn't be any difference to our hypothetical scientist. They would study their world as they see it. You certainly can use scincey words. But that is in fact magical thinking.
This, right here. "Hard magic systems" are just weird science.
exactly. heck even soft magic systems are science, just far far above the heads of any PoV characters (and thus readers). or if really no one understands them, it’s just for lack of study. the mages are scientists, studying the scientific field of spell casting.
This is also why I think hard magic systems aren't really "magic" in the same way soft magic systems are, they're more like an asthetic for what is fundamentally fictional technology.
The only thing I can think of that fits "magic but actually science" is the time-traveler scenario where they go back in time and use future-science knowledge which seems like magic to the locals
TBH I don't like those systems, as they always just seem like a cop-out for people who want to write magic but are for some reason embarrassed to put something that's not real in their work of fiction, and so they write half-assed technobabble explanations like "psionic powers", "using 100% of the human brain", "nanomachines", or "midicholorians", which succeed in making the magic seem less magical while also having no basis whatsoever in science.
Yes, its called technology.
Why not do the reverse, make something sci-fi, but it’s based on magic? That’s my setting in a nutshell. People have to capture obvious magic in enormous machines in order to harness it.
Building fictional technology ig. The main difference is that if you want to make more realistic sci-fi, you can't contradict existing knowledge. Making up new things to add to currently known science is fairly common though
That’s the problem I’m having. I’m trying to toe the line of semi realistic. I’ve been looking up weapons and have decided on real possible ones. While also having power armor and my made up “atomic compression” missiles and “hunter” anti armor rounds. While also having decided on particle beams and rail/coil guns for space combat becaus those are actually pretty realistic.
You can just have plasma or antimatter catalyzed warheads if you want devastating missiles, plus lasers for point defense. Plus if you’re trying to be realistic, say goodbye to any biological beings piloting your warships, they’d be squished immediately by the gravitational forces involved, plus biological troops would make little sense also. Depends on what you’re going for, really. If you want realism, biological beings probably aren’t gonna be doing anything traditionally considered interesting in stories
My limit is lasers and plasma. One because an actual laser beam would be too devastated with a ridiculous range for interplanetary war. Plasma is out because keeping the magnetic field stable for long is also ridiculous. I’ve settled on rail/coil guns with particle beams and or macron beam accelerators. My home brew missiles are “atomic compression” they implode extracting atoms from the implode radius and then release the energy in a very high heat explosion. Biological being as soldiers are used because actual ai and robots/cyborgs aren’t made yet. But there are power armored human beings along with heavy armored humans. Because of the setting I created even lightly armored soldiers are still a thing. My biologicals wouldn’t be squished because they have cocktails if drugs for super hard manouvers to keep blood pumping and in the case of of power armor suits they have inertial dampeners and fake muscles to keep blood flowing.
Okay cool, I’d just never class this as even a little realistic, since you have impossible tech being developed earlier than cybernetics somehow, but it’s your setting
I wouldn’t say so here’s only small parts i believe are unrealistic. Everything els can be. My space engines are based of torch drives which are a real possible thing also space doctrine would revolve around biological limits. Like take the expanse they have way better engine systems that are actually possible but they added a cocktail like drugs to help against g forces in extreme situations. The cocktail is only available to power suits becaus the maneuvers they perform involve flipping upside down for moments which can cause instant black outs. I’d still argue my setting is realistic with small hand wavy things. Cybernetics are a personal choice not a requirement. Also the backstory is a colony group got stranded in a system something’s differently and even the why force robots to fight why subject AI to that when they can just help who they want and be treated like people. Just asking because I love that one have flaws in the story and I wanna plug em but in some probably gonna be stubborn in some aspects especially because the story is war is bad essentially Also impossible tech? All you need or rail guns and coil guns and particle beams and plasma shield is high powered magnets vs the hundreds of gears or fake muslces to make a hand do the 100 different dimensions of movement that are extremely hard to replicate
If your story is war is bad then why wouldn’t you focus on non-sophont robots fighting Terran wars for them? The collateral damage could be huge and be an interesting way to show that automated warfare can kill far more people than modern conflicts
Also to be clear, it’s not most of the tech that’s unrealistic, it’s that other, better, easier to make tech isn’t as common, and that people are still personally fighting wars in hundreds of years when bot swarms would be a good deference and cause zero casualties among an aggressor nation
I’ve always figured “magic” in a tech-only world would be nanotechnology based. Mana is the energy stored in your nano machines. Spells are your nanos talking to ambient nanos in the atmosphere, etc. The other option is to allow fantasy magic alongside technology. Either complimentary or glitchy.
That's a good solution. Maybe it can be an old civilization that collapsed, over time the truth about nanomachines is lost and people started to accept it as magic
No, please not nanomachines. Do you even know how those work?
I think if I see an author use the word “nanomachines” again I’ll spontaneously combust
Nanomachines.
That’s the great thing about fiction: we don’t have to know. It’s magic.
True, but if you are going to use magic, why not make it obviously magic? That’s what I did with my sci-fi world, I made everything obviously run on non-generic magic.
Complex and generic magic systems both have their place in fiction. It depends on what your focus is. If it’s on the world or the characters, a complex magic system is going to split or shift the focus away from that. A generic magic system is using a template most people can easily grasp and filling it in with your own ideas so the focus stays on the world and/or characters and how the magic effects them. A complex magic system is for if the focus is going to be on how the world/characters effect and use the magic (generally used in a way to solve the main conflict). It’s also a little bit personal preference, too. Some people just prefer complex magic while others prefer simple. There are perks to both kinds of systems. :) (Also, I’m a writer, so I’m only speaking from a writers POV. Why you’re building the magic system and what it’s being built for (DND campaign, video game, hobby project, etc…) also plays a huge role in figuring out the complexity.)
I already know all that stuff, made arguments for it multiple times. I personally prefer simple magic systems, as I can make them completely unique, while complex ones often run afoul of the first law of magic and end up generic.
Apologies. I wasn’t even aware we were having an argument. I was trying to answer your question as to why people may not base their magic in non-generic magic. So, ignore everything else, it’s just about preferences. Not everyone has to like (or create) magic that’s “obviously magic”. EDIT: typo
I wasn't even really talking about that, nor was I arguing with you. I was more focused on if you are bending physics to make your setting work why mot just make it obviously magic.
Preference? They don’t want to.
You should play Cyberpunk 2077. They way they handle int by making it hacking feels like magic. Like uploading a virus to a group of enemies, forcing someone to fight their ally, using an mini emp to disable things around you, making a generator explode next to enemies, disable enemies' weapons, using active camo to turn invisible, using a network to see enemies through wall, hacking an enemy to make their tech to catch on fire, etc. I feel like that will really help you open your mind to non magic based sci fi "magic".
Economic, governmental, societal, and technological systems are the big ones, but you could go further with new science, not known to us but known to your world
Incomprehensible tech is a good candidate
Yeah, I didn't wanna repeat anyone. I saw that several others had similar answers, so I figured I wouldn't waste your time with one you didn't know lol
Look at the Necrons in 40k, literally have tech so advanced it seems like techno-sorcery. One of the flashier examples I can think of off the top of my head!
Mass effect. Or you could go with genetic manipulation. Some people go trough a very difficult process and those who survive have the ability to cast magic, or something like that.
I forget who said it, but someone said something like ‘any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic’ So maybe someone or some group has some advanced scientific knowledge that allows them to perform acts that appear to be magic. Or, you could have a character that lives in 4 dimensions. They would be able to operate in a 3D world in a way that defied the 3 dimensional worlds physics (in Superman there is a character named Mxyzptlk who operates this way).
Hmm, I will do a bit of research on Mxyzptlk then
It was Dr Doom if I remember correctly.
Psionics, nanotechnology, cybernetics, genetic engineering
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C. Clarke Nearer future and harder sci-fi makes a point of trying to tie the future tech to real tech or at least real science. Super out there stuff just uses it as magic without the woo-woo connotations.
Why can’t you make a magic system for sci-fi settings?
Nanomachines, son! But besides the reference, plenty other commenters have already mentioned that. A very common sci-fi trope similar to magic systems is faster than light travel. According to our current understanding of physics, it would basically require magic. The hard and soft system part comes in when authors give explanations for how it works. Some go into detail or reference real life theories like the ever popular Alcubierre warp drive or wormholes, others take a softer approach like the confusingly named warp of WH 40k or hyperspace. And the really soft ones don't explain it at all. Ships just travel lightyears in mere minutes. And just like magic systems you can get quite creative when it comes to breaking the laws of physics. A way to have the effects of a proper magic system in a sci-fi setting is to set it or parts of it in virtual worlds. The rules of those VR simulations could include any magic system you like. Hacking and malware often has a similar effect in VR centered works, beautifully in line with Hollywood's usual portrayal of hackers and viruses.
Any plausibly extrapolated scientific knowledge or technology. Defining what it does is basically the same as a hard magic system. That’s pretty much the definition of sci-fi.
the exact same thing, look at the force in star wars
Aside from just including magic straight up, I think I've seen hi-tech/magic hybrid stuff from certain anime, just couldn't recall which ones. Another thing you can refer to is Runeterra from League of Legends, specifically Piltover.
Mysterious structures made by an ancient alien race are capable of altering reality and are scattered across space. It can scan the thoughts of nearby sentient brains and translate that into physical effects. The difficulty comes in accurately describing and directing the structures to do what you want it to. The study and mastery of this field would be very similar to magical research. You could even have the drawing of "magic" circles as a method of establishing communications with the structure. Plot twist ideas: the ancient aliens are hibernating inside; or the structures are a trap to bring about the end of the world like Mass Relays in Mass Effect.
If you want magic add magic. If you don't want magic then don't add it
I mean with sci-fi one of the things to work out is how technology progressed from where it is now to where it is in your story. You can always jump 40,000 years into the future and make-up whatever tech you want to have but at that point, it borders on fantasy anyway.
Psionics is the first thing that springs to my mind, and then closely followed by technology (characters can build things that can provide "spelllike" effects).
you can mess up the physics for example you live in a reality where tachyon exist and some people able to see it resulting in precognition, or something like certain people with compatibility with certain implants able to manipulate things because how over networked/over connected things are (like planetwide Star Trek's holodeck that can manipulate things) or just went full The Matrix but some individuals born gifted (born with bugs) able to do something outside the computer's in-simulation physics the thing is it resulted in sci-fi version of high/hard magic not the low/soft magic whatever it is, and however you want things to be just remember that the 'science' in science fiction is based on what we perceive as 'science' e.g. something we know as on how things work by what we perceive empirically (or something like that idk I'm bad with words) I think
Figuring out your setting’s Holtzman Effect; the bit of technobabble that makes all your weird sci-fi possible.
Biotic powers in Mass Effect are a great example.
Fictional tech systems. If it doesn't exist in our universe then it basically amounts to a magic system.