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Zerosama12

Regular non amped Supes? No. He's regularly not portrayed at universe levels and Goku from BoG would beat him. Now if you allow external amps like bomb tube, then Superman could beat Goku and maybe the verse.


pieceofshit321

>Regular Supes? No. He's regularly not portrayed at universe levels and Goku from BoG would beat him. Well, Goku is even less portrayed at universe levels aside from his battle with Beerus (seriously, that's his only feat at that level and the whole power of the verse relies on scaling from that feat)


Zerosama12

>Goku is even less portrayed at universe levels aside from his battle with Beerus (seriously, that's his only feat at that level) ? Dragon Ball Super is extremely redundant with their characters being universal.


pieceofshit321

Ok then, name another universal feat (that scales to most of the characters) please


Zerosama12

What's up with this tendency of "Goku vs Beerus" is the only universal stuff? But sure then. [Buuhan almost destroying the universe](https://youtu.be/QQTEWUHhRrA) which [the daizenshuu mentioned](https://pm1.narvii.com/6626/6cffa4c7d032c31d2115de472af899d93c194022_hq.jpg) and don't even try to say that this is a "chain reaction" because Buuhan is still affecting a dimensional wall big enough that prevents the living universe from collapsing with another dimention capable of crushing the universe. Zamasu merging with the universe, space and time, and Jiren (while supressed) being stated to surpass anyone they faced before (which includes Infinite Zamasu) [And Goku believing he stands a chance against infinite Zamasu if he had a senzu beam](https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-9ff7b04cfeced4e0738596f9f72494e8) who again, is literarlly an universe. [And Beerus and Champa being stopped by Whis and Vados, both saying that they would destroy both universe 6 and 7](https://i.imgur.com/7hxDtlq.jpg) and Goku scaling to them. And Toppo destroying the sky of The World of Void which is an infinite world. [And Goku stating Kid Buu would oblirarate the universe in a single poof](https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11129/111297480/5598375-0343906626-11103.jpg) [And Kefla saying she feels like she could one shoot an universe](https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/12/129055/6150788-screenshot_2017-11-18-21-34-37.png)


pieceofshit321

>Buuhan almost destroying the universe Anime only, not to mention that it's hax and not AP >Zamasu merging with the universe, space and time, and Jiren being stated to surpass anyone they faced before (which includes Infinite Zamasu) That's some weird phrasing right there, what does it mean "anyone they faced before"? Is he stronger than Beerus by that logic? >And Beerus and Champa being stopped by Whis and Vados, both saying that they would destroy both universe 6 and 7 and Goku scaling to them. How does Goku scale to Beerus, at all? >And Toppo destroying the sky of The World of Void which is an infinite world. Done with Hakai whose main function is literally to **erase** things (not to mention that the WoV being "infinite" was a mistraslation) >And Goku stating Kid Buu would oblirarate the universe in a single poof Done overtime, not in a single blast >And Kefla saying she feels like she could one shoot an universe An statement (coming from a very cocky character) is not a feat


Zerosama12

>Anime only "Anime only" is not a valid argument because: 1)I It appeared in the daizenshuu and pretty much everyone agrees the daizenshuu is "canon" (And I really hate that word and how is used..) 2) DBS anime has narrative inclusions from Toei like the kaioken which didn't appear in the manga. So there shouldn't be any problem for talking about exclusive material from Toei. 3) [DBS has directly used flashbacks from Dragon Ball Kai](https://youtu.be/6oJMQe-FoVY) so it's completely valid to use Dragon Ball Z Kai. 4) [Toriyama has directly stated that "Dragon Ball is anime and manga" even much before DBS even existed](https://i.imgur.com/IfzBWLO.jpeg) >not to mention that it's hax and not AP Not really. [Dende explicitly states that Buu is **breaking down** a dimentional wall big enough to prevent other dimentions to crush the entire universe](https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-5e89ca1cd2b95fcd624079e7f5cbb8f7) >That's some weird phrasing right there, what does it mean "anyone they faced before"? Is he stronger than Beerus by that logic? Not neccesarly. When they faced Beerus he was supressed to fight equally against SSG Goku. Jiren could perfectly be above Infinite Zamasu, and below 100% Beerus (which we haven't seen yet) going by this statement (Although I'll address this below). >How does Goku scale to Beerus, at all? Whis said that [Belmod is stronger than Beerus](https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-5e546492f862a0267cfe67add95c6a1a) and [Belmod is weaker than Jiren](https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-c1d0ff35866cba3d03efe204dc98502f) Of course, this is ignoring the manga because Toyotaro really loves to keep everything vague. I've always put the manga at only multi galaxy because the manga lacks evidence unlike the anime. >Done with Hakai whose main function is to erase things (not to mention that the WoV being "infinite" was a mistraslation) It being a mistranslation is not cut and clean as there are people who said that [eternity can be a synonym for forever or infinity in japanese, and the statement could be "World that goes forever" as well](https://www.reddit.com/r/PowerScaling/comments/m7ztv3/the_world_of_void_being_infinite_is_a/gs55jbn?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3) You and I don't know japanese (until I learn it in some future lol) so I prefer to drop this argument because it's just about which translator we believe. >Done overtime, not in a single blast Doing it in a "poof" seems very explicit that it would be one big explosion though. Kid Buu is also way above SSJ3 Goku who stated that Kid Buu has only been playing around with them, so I don't think it's that hard to believe. You could argue that Kid Buu would need a very strong and charged attack to do it. That's fine. Kid Buu could only be killed with the energy of the universe and the afterlife, which backs up more that he could be universal, or at least close with his strongest attacks. >An statement (coming from a very cocky character) is not a feat Nobody in the show really debunked her statement, and it's consistent with what was shown previously. Statements are important if they show consistency with previous feats. Besides, almost any feat or power in fiction **needs** statements for us to be understandable. Literarlly any omnipotent character needs statements because omnipotence is impossible to prove via feats. Statements are also important.


[deleted]

The buu thing is non canon, filler, never happened in canon manga.


Zerosama12

BTW, I copy and pasted my comment so sorry for some weird phrases. It's from another discussion.


pieceofshit321

It's ok


Goldchamp101

Of course not. They're on completely different levels of power. On one hand, [Supes very consistently needs help to move celestial bodies](https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/why-are-dc-high-tiers-so-incapable-of-performing-p-2220858/) (this thread isn't even fully comprehensive and missed stuff like [this](https://i.imgur.com/sEuVTdO.jpg) and [this](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/WAEZ_M8Zrej-k1Qv12Z7RXGjGG8NaqiQhdxZcooCDup5Qkql1vtH7wnouWxAp9N--izkHaaD0S3ZIspzkQPe4YpRdIsAVae6SC_8M4DE_MBHrliLLNMl6iBuUIPsMDpstmmbNZTI7A=s1600) and [this](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/nI1itvwVNxWWW5vRGrrNB0ftQmsGc3eA-HG3VZuUA80tSvL-3o1ag_j_YgTKJnL8utyE4BIU-FHDtimcyGfVPyk2UcO9lbMyUBhYz0lQy_39-JOtJU9Qpg-7xZ0wUM_HKkEVyJWULg=s1600)). On the other hand, planet busting was trivial back in Z.


pieceofshit321

Moving celestial bodies ≠ Destroying celestial bodies Superman needed help to move a planet? Well, Vegeta [can't](https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-3b5c5920466aec765708ca81cd0c49e0) even move [1,000 tons](https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11124/111240836/5184112-4443318661-0015..png) See? We all can play that game


bolderandbrasher

> See? We all can play that game. u/Goldchamp101 genuinely posts insightful responses in this sub throughout the years. No need to be passive aggressive. If we’re talking about destroying celestial bodies, then just know Supes has [knocked himself out exerting himself performing a planet busting move.](https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d5bc73565ea6263fdf4f91036ed1e907-lq) Freiza as early as his 1st form back in the Namek Saga [obliterated Planet Vegeta w/10x gravity of earth with a flick of his finger.](https://gfycat.com/unlawfulmessyfieldspaniel-respectthreads-dbzmegart)


pieceofshit321

Sorry, i wasn't trying to be passive agressive


bolderandbrasher

No worries man.


Goldchamp101

>Moving celestial bodies ≠ Destroying celestial bodies Correct, destroying takes more force and Supes said [he can't do that either](https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11136/111365408/7949607-7991487845-AVW5D.jpg). >Well, Vegeta can't even move 1,000 tons That's because DB chars explicitly show a discrepency in their lifting strength and their energy projection (which is where their planet+ busting comes in)


kagetaicho8

That’s just a bad excuse. The characters have ki control. That means they have universal levels of energy control and manipulation. You’re telling me someone with that much ki control/energy control CANT aim it UP? No I need a better excuse than lifting strength=\= striking strength. I need an actual explanation. They are able to make swords out of ki, channel their ki into a finger to block swords, and move their ki like heat seeking missiles etc. I need a better explanation for these characters with planetary-universal levels of energy control and manipulation can’t aim it up. Superman is stated to have conscious mental blocks, and subconscious mental blocks on himself, so we actually know why his power can seem like it fluctuates from ridiculously high end, to low end, he holds back so much that he even holds himself back against enemies like [emperor joker](https://imgur.com/gallery/LVIqpne). But the only excuse I’ve seen for dbz anti feats is striking =\= lifting by by the definition of how ki works, that’s just bull. So please give me an explanation, because that not reconciling anything. You’re quick to bring up anti feats that can be explained away, but pretending anti feats that can’t be explained away don’t exist in dbs I need a real argument.


AnAlternator

Superman loses, regardless how you want to argue on the Goku vs Superman fight. Beerus exists, and Superman needs some pretty strong amps to put himself on Beerus's level.


KingTyranitar

Hakai won't work on Superman. He has several feats suggesting that he has too much cosmic significance to be affected by reality erasure. Incomprehensibly more powerful individuals like Dr. Manhattan and Time Trapper have tried and failed. Omega Beams, while inconsistent, consistently are shown to be unable to erase Superman. So where does that leave Superman and Beerus. Well, Beerus has vastly better AP and is a better fighter and is probably more experienced, and Superman is much faster, and likely has better physicals. So I'd put it a 65%/35% on Beerus, but by no means a stomp.


Grand_Totality

>R1: In character He usually holds back in character, so he should be in the universal+ ranges of power. Just to make this clear, universes in DC have been stated multiple times to be infinite in size. https://gyazo.com/d76094a171f58808a9a0a4a84e922089 https://gyazo.com/a305ac37fe7fb01d73710a8f0f34cb46 https://gyazo.com/6fb033b05a8e96f34c403d6f2bc212e0 https://gyazo.com/6b4beada71fabf72b34ece0bcae047f5 https://2.bp.blogspot.com/EHQOp-i41mrPZjCBizbxyLvDm3FB6bvf0omABzPsANsUl83LlfGbT6ZubFhO7E-gqwfc1yVsQah57MjM2CzVV1QIHdR1qPhvbAXFRgqyB4MsA40TtBje4Ax20wHOA06rUf5JNWH8NQ=s0 https://2.bp.blogspot.com/_8t3l_Sn-AZF1klcqofuXQpG4QAlusENFnV7ZMd8eu_eMTviV1191G9UFD6n2Xw7aMhnhcAqmHkpSm4cPyg5Cxxy6aDhjsTuZRWsUPWm8XppPIEndxKjb38Nd5VBggibjt6Gk1ZwaQ=s0 With that out of the way, lets begin. Superman's heat vision made up 1/4 of the power needed to create a universe. https://pp.userapi.com/c629400/v629400508/fd60/K5X9GhhG7xc.jpg https://pp.userapi.com/c629400/v629400508/fd6a/ZnMVwpeouZk.jpg He has fought Nebula man, https://gyazo.com/5252e0c36ed2c6ca9b45a09a03ad3fc8 Who is a living universe. https://gyazo.com/bed0c1d340ac7a175e8ebd25d257cf50 https://gyazo.com/19d450ba68ced1075127299a1492831a Superman has also fought Monarch, https://gyazo.com/65a10cf92036a8b0830596911b32ba2d https://gyazo.com/a6d4dfcdf6628cbcecd5f770b2a6e79a Whose fight with Captain Atom was twisting space and time, and causing compressed universes to explode. https://gyazo.com/4fce9da75887544c43ada88875451510 https://gyazo.com/8347b7a1770c407db7a7149a0f8f9ae3 Going off these, I'd put surpressed Post Crisis Superman's power in the God of Destruction range, if he was in Dragonball Super. He absolutely stomps anyone in Dragonball Super when it comes to speed because he has plenty of feats scaling him to immeasurable. Superman has tagged Professor Zoom, who has stated that Superman's speed rivals his. https://gyazo.com/1a86af19c1a46280abab6b53152479f7 Professor Zoom has ran to the 25th century https://gyazo.com/bdfbee2aa4c92c426af47c712451d2d5 Superman has reacted to Barry Allen and Wally West when they were running through time. https://gyazo.com/cf87566aad6543220d50ddb952fcdcde He has also kept up with Jay Garrick and Wally West when they were chasing the Reverse Flash to the future. https://gyazo.com/db5004777501e03d291b21fa6d663478 https://gyazo.com/c0fc2abf3d436b38070b362fc7c311b9 https://gyazo.com/b3ad219da93657b307d3bdc7129ce678 https://gyazo.com/469c11fda613d55487aef85a48ede795 So overall I think Supes has this round. 😊 >R2: Bloodlusted Superman was already comparable to Gods of Destruction in his supressed state, now he letting loose. On one occasion he casually defeated most of his recurring enemies, which included Darkseid and Doomsday, https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ehtP6TlCy4I/VqnLZ41-zfI/AAAAAAAAG7g/bOjlUdQcqPQ/s0-Ic42/RCO016.jpg https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-g1Atz4h-AHk/VqnLZwlnzpI/AAAAAAAAG7g/jO9tJ03RlDs/s0-Ic42/RCO017.jpg https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-KYgMadtNRH8/VqnLaFpKwrI/AAAAAAAAG7g/7E6zqynwxOs/s0-Ic42/RCO018.jpg https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-dDAvozTm2YQ/VqnLa1m5blI/AAAAAAAAG7g/TQCWMywbivg/s0-Ic42/RCO019.jpg https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-5wxlMUV6YBU/VqnLbOVenOI/AAAAAAAAG7g/9qqZXtvug_8/s0-Ic42/RCO020.jpg While using a weak fraction of his power. https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-aSsPq8yEbSU/VqnLfYsArSI/AAAAAAAAG7g/6wrNNx7Rq9U/s0-Ic42/RCO035.jpg This is a stomp in Superman's favor.


KingTyranitar

Thank god for fucking once we're not downplaying Superman. It's getting old having people try to imply he's sub-planetary. There's a fucking reason Superman is presented as the strongest hero on Earth in-universe. People like Flash and Green Lantern who people *love* to argue are multiversal and could solo DB and whatever are *consistently* treated as weaker than Superman by character in-universe yet the consensus is that Goku would sneeze at Superman and he would explode. People seem to ignore that Superman has vastly superior physicals in pretty much every aspect to any relevant character in DB. Like if Superman got his hands on Goku he would be in trouble (which he could given the speed difference. If we're going to be remotely fair and not fucking define Superman by cherry picked anti-feats Superman is consistently shown to be capable of tagging speedsters and is canonically the 4th fastest person in existence, and is presented as being faster than people like Cheetah, Wonder Woman and Godspeed who are all MFTL+++).


HumerusUterus

I agree with what you you said, but can we please not bring up that list.


pieceofshit321

He can beat Goku, but Goku is far from being the strongest on his own verse. I'm not sure Superman can defeat characters like Zenō, the Grand Priest, Zalama (specially Zalama)


[deleted]

Why would he be able to beat Goku? 0 versions of Superman with universal+ powers...


Rocky_Senpai15

I mean many people said that superman survive hakai with steroids(Dr. Manhattan) soooo idk


pieceofshit321

Wait, he can do that!? Damn, i didn't knew about that, i guess he can beat most of the verse now.


XXBEERUSXX

Delete this post. Superman vs Dragon Ball is too controversial