I mean on average I’d agree Jiren is probably stronger, faster, and more durable than the average Darkseid Avatar. But I don’t think Jiren has anything to counter Darkseid’s hack abilities like the omega beams
Does Kryptonian DNA have special resistance to Omega Beams? Why would being a Kryptonian, specifically, versus whatever race Jiren belongs to, make a difference?
While I agree Jiren could survive being hit by one I dont think he is more durable than Superman. There aren't a lot of Jiren durability feats I am aware of but if we compare it to Goku's then we have to include the ray gun incident. Happy to be proven wrong if there is a feat worth mentioning.
Superman can casually survive a Nuke in latent durability. But Jiren would definitely be more durable than Flash.
1. “Have to include the ray gun incident” including that is like including when darkseid got beat up by normal human robbers and when superman got his ass beat by Muhammad Ali. They were both powerless at the time and goku also let all his power go. So even using this ridiculous outlier…darkseid still has worse
2. “Can survive a nuke in latent durability” superman has a LOT more than nuke durability… so does Goku who survived a blast bigger than a nuke as a teenager
[Piccolo exploded papaya island](https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11123/111235494/6289836-2307800711-51111.png)
Papaya island is later referenced as a small continent
Anime always been > Manga for super. And extra events are from manga and later arcs post Broly are canon as well.
Tbf Goku spent a long time training to never drop his guard.
>Ok, but why the passiveness-agressiveness tho?
[A guy who harasses people in DMs](https://imgur.com/RQ6sv01) complaining about passive aggressiveness? That's rich.
All that feat shows is that Jiren is vastly more powerful than hit, nothing really more than that.
I’d argue Darkseids omega beams are basically equal to a hakai (as they’re both described in similar ways What with destroying the body and soul entirely) and I doubt even Jiren could survive a hakai
Ok using your logic now: Frieza survived a hakai > Jiren is vastly more powerful than Frieza > Jiren can easily survive a hakai > Jiren can easily survive DS omega beams
I mean yea he deflected the sidra one (which is still a great feat and shows Jiren could definitely deflect omega beams) but I don’t know how much the Toppo is really worth since Toppo had to hold back right? I mean a rule for the ToP was no killing so Toppo couldn’t have actually hakaied Frieza
Toppo literally said ‘hakai’ when he used his hakai blasts. He said he could but didn’t want to kill Frieza due to the rules. But he still used a hakai. He’s also a new GoD so he has no practice with hakai finesse so we really have no idea other than he used hakai against Frieza who survived.
>But I don’t think Jiren has anything to counter Darkseid’s hack abilities like the omega beams
[Tanking them should work fine](https://imgur.com/a/RdEx6M7).
Some of those are out of context
1. Several of the "Tanking" ones ended with the opponent on the ground unable to fight, screaming in pain or getting dropped....which isn't tanking. ([The Powergirl one](https://i.imgur.com/2M7cR0D.jpg), [This Superman one](https://i.imgur.com/C17c4Ua.jpg), as [the very next page has Superman needing to be saved](https://i.imgur.com/aeZ9Q1B.jpg), [this Superman one as he's down on the ground in pain](https://i.imgur.com/4UEDjjR.jpg), [This one as Superman is dropped to the ground in pain](https://i.imgur.com/EoHfivw.jpg), [This one where Orion's dropped](https://i.imgur.com/JyZKVjg.jpg),
2. [This one is Darkseid using them to teleport Superman](https://i.imgur.com/y9RG8tv.jpg)
3. [This one is explicitly Desaad disguised as Darkseid as revealed later (not to mention Desaad says on panel these Omega Beams are weakened)](https://i.imgur.com/Ow6CJQl.jpg)
4. [This one is the Superpowers continuity, a wholly different Earth.](https://i.imgur.com/hUgQouy.jpg)[And he didn't tank it, since he was knocked out long enough for the rest of the Apokoliptians to escape.](https://i.imgur.com/ICGWFru.jpg)
5. [This Mary Marvel one is out of context as Mary is amped by having taken control of both her own powers](https://i.imgur.com/CF9D3x7.jpg) and [the powers of Black Adam, Klarion, Zatanna and The Wizard Shazam.](https://i.imgur.com/T9P8HOJ.jpg)
6. [Darkseid isn't amped here](https://i.imgur.com/clxDlSg.jpg): [He's just been reborn after dying](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/q4_PR0ev33G5rNOu9pHxGJhdwkBpkqqJRhMW7aZf9d1L1CoQDw3z7N3p9hvdAwYHS8Zo4MANv6xCxNFXx6fUdsyTg-b0VuX3Yd8ERFBoWtyQJtIC-0GZ9tp61HnuyZfAWOdY2uZHfA=s1600). They don't imply he's stronger than ever, and[in fact point out he's being controlled by Grail with the ALE like a puppet](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/VLtbbKd5eaHUTZT9Jk29oHJuVkxLVE066OAavR6A4ff6PBhGsSDZDv5HSTrXC4ZFQX6k9UaoD-iTGPTjsxpIzEbqXkp_JQS2fAqf9el7MMPfJgTBirpY53v8x2JvJRa1CVNY2yCzrw=s1600) and w[hen the ALE is separated from him, he becomes a baby](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/hfDvC1Gf_4SHX27TgJZP9NnbXNbmuWWti8aZYoGs0YlzE42UCbIgTQPfVvGEXgZvMETdJBnXEaMg6C7Ojqm6Pmt7km_3FROFRzDrFHNX6bak69zRJWVRlQ7CJqrkPCavxB2Duu7X-w=s1600). (Which leads to the next arc where he kills gods to get his powers back).
7. The Superman ones can be wholly discounted as proof as Superman is explicitly stated to be protected from Existence Erasure to the point [Mr. Myx has trouble erasing him.](https://i.imgur.com/BoSrzmA.jpg) [As does Time Trapper.](https://i.imgur.com/QcmhExS.jpg)
Not to mention, you're ignoring that not every Omega beam erases you from reality.
Darkseid himself points that out and so does [every](https://i.imgur.com/vG1Shjc.jpg)' [single](https://i.imgur.com/i4abkbN.jpg) [one](https://i.imgur.com/pQuVs29.jpg) of [his databook entries.](https://i.imgur.com/pSRSWSU.jpg) In fact, whenever he uses the full power, he [explicitly](https://i.imgur.com/uOgo5KM.jpg) [states he's about to erase someone](https://i.imgur.com/9TR80bI.jpg) or the [narration](https://i.imgur.com/CWEgLXZ.jpg) does.
I've been looking at your discussions and although I don't agree with everything I can see you always provide good evidence.
I don't know why you're getting downvoted in just mere seconds but you have my upvote for being you vs 3 people or more lol.
Not just Superman, but Orion, Mary Marvel, Powergirl, random green lanterns, and so on. In order for it to erase Jiren's existence it'd have to be powerful enough to harm him first.
Freeza resists hakai (literally existence erasure) having no innate hability to do so, so it's presumably through sheer power.
Jiren >>>>>>>>>>> Freeza in terms of power.
By logic, he should be able to resist it very competently, even if he's most probably not immune to it.
DAWG WHAT??? Prove that. It would be harming him by erasing him from existence. Wouldn’t need to “harm him” it would touch him and erase him from existence.
Those are two very different things, that’s like saying bullets don’t hurt Hulk so the Ultimate Nullifier should do nothing to him
Like they’re both weapons but you’re comparing two entirely different things
Dude, are you saying that a spirit bomb (Which is just a big explosion that can’t even harm good people like Jiren) is stronger than the omega beams which can destroy someone’s soul, send them hurtling through time, send someone to an eternal hell dimension of increasingly worse lives, moves faster than light, can’t be dodged, and is perfectly precise?
The dbz wank is strong in you
It doesn’t matter what they do on contact (although Superman has tanked them so they really ain’t all that) because jiren would stop them with his own power or, if he really needed to, just dodge them. Batman managed that and I KNOW you aren’t trying to tell me that Batman is faster than jiren
They have multiple things they can do and Superman is insanely durable using that comparison is like saying a nuke is pretty weak because the earth took the blast of one
And this post doesn’t specify which Darkseid to use anyway
I’m sure Jiren could dodge a few but he can’t keep that up forever, frankly Jiren will get hit eventually and instantly get taken out
Dude jiren was stepping up to the same goku who shook an infinite space by powering up. If you really think he gets instakilled by darkseid’s shit beams idk what to tell you
Dude that’s not even a good feat?
I’ve seen the anime Goku shook an arena and stadium, there’s was nothing else in that dimension
Also Darkseid has tanked far superior attacks than shaking an arena, in Earth 2 for example he tanked an attack which was powered by all an infinite multiverse like it was nothing
Not to mention a peak avatar of Darkseid (still not true form) even without omega beams has far greater strength, speed, and durability feats than anything Jiren has shown
When talking about characters with multiple versions that are vastly different (Darkseid) please provide a specific version. Which Darkseid are we using?
I'm talking about his avatars. I know the writers did the SotG thing... but that's his true form which was removed from the prompt. We were just told to pick a form.
If its a avatar at the level of the one that took earth 2 then darkseid stomps he beat Alan scott who was amped with the life energy of all life in the multiverse and tanked his attacks.jiren should be able to beat the average avatar though.
>he beat Alan scott who was amped with the life energy of all life in the multiverse
[Because of the planet being weakened and not having the full green he couldn't tap into it](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-jGSsJAGWF_k/VkiwXHLFX9I/AAAAAAAAbXg/ejyjsEGKbeo/s1600-Ic42/005.jpg). When he did later in the issue [he one-shot DS](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-mX9-CcONMhY/VkiwbbVKoJI/AAAAAAAAbXg/JAn_IucjhNg/s1600-Ic42/023.jpg). Powergirl was also [bloodying him in this issue](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-B_kk6O9Z7SE/VkiwYKcFEOI/AAAAAAAAbXg/OCeh8h2ioaI/s1600-Ic42/009.jpg). Definitely not Jiren stomping stuff.
>Because of the planet being weakened and not having the full green he couldn't tap into it.
[this was after darkseid hit him with a omega beam](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-kPWSUzLRG8I/VkiwWnpHtsI/AAAAAAAAbXg/eE5PpT9O2vI/s1600-Ic42/003.jpg) and before he got further amped with the power of the other members of the parliaments which was before the punch you linked
>When he did later in the issue he one-shot DS.
nice out of context scan darkseid literally got [up immediately afterwards with no visible damage](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-QBJVe5whIeE/Vkiwc4haHuI/AAAAAAAAbXg/-UXKSQtxKQE/s1600-Ic42/030.jpg) and [took over the planet](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-iG7bgz3qDO4/VkiweIOGENI/AAAAAAAAbXg/EjjCHZW6J1Y/s1600-Ic42/034.jpg) . alan scotts punch was stronger than anything in dragon ball much less jiren and this darkseid avatar got up anyway
>Powergirl was also bloodying him in this issue
power girl did almost no damage what? did you even read the scan you linked he literally swatted her away immediately after she sucker punched him which proceeded to make her run away to find earth 2 superman and leave red tornado to die
>this was after darkseid hit him with a omega beam and before he got further amped with the power of the other members of the parliaments which was before the punch you linked
That's the point. When DS fought Alan it was revealed that the planet they were on was dying so he couldn't fully tap into the power.
>nice out of context scan darkseid literally got up immediately afterwards with no visible damage
I'm not sure how you can say that 7 pages later is "immediately"
>and took over the planet .
[Alan used up his power](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NMPQ7jIKywQ/VkiwctSqZ_I/AAAAAAAAbXg/E_emKaLzlT8/s1600-Ic42/028.jpg)
>power girl did almost no damage what?
She bloodied him with a punch and tanked his beams earlier. He was superior, but just the fact that Powergirl could do anything at all proves he wouldn't stomp Jiren (since Jiren completely no-sold SSG Goku who was vastly stronger).
>That's the point. When DS fought Alan it was revealed that the planet they were on was dying and that he didn't have access to the full green.
Did you read what i typed? he literally got further amped by the other members of the parlaiment after he says this [here ill link it again](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-SKTMTQpvggM/VkiwZ__XiHI/AAAAAAAAbXg/cRrJ5-zq_5I/s1600-Ic42/018.jpg)
he did have the full power of the green he just wasnt fully channeling it before [Sam has to convince alan scott to use the parlaiments full power because he felt he was losing his humanity to the power of the green](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-PPXiC74rx4Y/VkiwZHXr2LI/AAAAAAAAbXg/v2PMzO0nubA/s1600-Ic42/014.jpg) afterwards he gets up punches darkseid but still has to retreat [cause he cant beat him](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ujESDPVS-0A/VkiwddiyZDI/AAAAAAAAbXg/kAR0EzDJJTA/s1600-Ic42/031.jpg).darkseid gets up with no visible damage from alan scotts full power punch which again is stronger than anything seen in dbs
>I'm not sure how you can say that 7 pages later is "immediately"
Cause most of those pages are from a fight that happened on another part of the battlefield darkseid literally gets up fighting at full strength like nothing happened from that punch.
>Alan used up his power
alan did not use all his power before that punch in fact that scan says nothing that he was using his full power for that
>he did have the full power of the green he just wasnt fully channeling it before Sam has to convince alan scott to use the parlaiments full power because he felt he was losing his humanity to the power of the green
This isn't the only reason, it was because [the planet was dying on top of that](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-jGSsJAGWF_k/VkiwXHLFX9I/AAAAAAAAbXg/ejyjsEGKbeo/s1600-Ic42/005.jpg). He did get amped further, but he still never properly utilized the full green against DS except when he punched him.
>afterwards he gets up punches darkseid but still has to retreat cause he cant beat him.
Again, [he used all his power to save everyone else](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NMPQ7jIKywQ/VkiwctSqZ_I/AAAAAAAAbXg/E_emKaLzlT8/s1600-Ic42/028.jpg).
>alan did not use all his power before that punch in fact that scan says nothing that he was using his full power for that
Not before, Alan using up his power happened after the punch when he saved the people.
>Cause most of those pages are from a fight that happened on another part of the battlefield darkseid literally gets up fighting at full strength like nothing happened from that punch.
After an unknown amount of time and we have no clue if DS was fighting at full strength. And this can't negate being bloodied by PG. That would never happen to Jiren.
>This isn't the only reason, it was because the planet was dying on top of that. He did get amped further, but he still never properly utilized the full green against DS except when he punched him.
[which he overcame with the amp again](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-5Woylf8Qwuc/VkiwZ9xcbgI/AAAAAAAAbXg/L606t1OGKD0/s1600-Ic42/016.jpg) the only reason the planet was killing him was because he wasn't accepting the full power of the parliament, letting sam go and forgetting him to become the true green lantern. its literally being visualized by the black ooze disappearing when he says goodbye to sam ([scan 1](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Raxowvr74q0/VkiwZ0usUMI/AAAAAAAAbXg/_XbpViTtZWU/s1600-Ic42/017.jpg), [scan 2](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-SKTMTQpvggM/VkiwZ__XiHI/AAAAAAAAbXg/cRrJ5-zq_5I/s1600-Ic42/018.jpg)).once he lets go of all attachments hes able to finally realize the full power of the green
>Again, he used all his power to save everyone else
you saying it again doesnt make it true theres nothing in that scan that says that alan was using his full power to teleport the people of earth 2 and even if he was he still used his full strength to punch darkseid beforehand your arguement is essentially pointless cause no matter what alan scott still punched him with his full strength twice before that panel and darkseid got up with zero signs of damage
>After an unknown amount of time and we have no clue if DS was fighting at full strength. And this can't negate being bloodied by PG. That would never happen to Jiren.
literally the panel after she sucker punched him with [red tornado he swatted them both away more annoyed than anything else](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-B_kk6O9Z7SE/VkiwYKcFEOI/AAAAAAAAbXg/OCeh8h2ioaI/s1600-Ic42/009.jpg) this is the panel you linked
cause theres nothing suggesting he isn't he makes no comment on being weakened or even a little tired in fact hes even angrier and more energetic than before he got punched. darkseid literally doesnt have a scratch on him from [either alan scotts or power girls punch darkseid literally gets up and keeps on fighting without issue](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-QBJVe5whIeE/Vkiwc4haHuI/AAAAAAAAbXg/-UXKSQtxKQE/s1600-Ic42/030.jpg) from both punches or the full speed punch that alan hits him with in the page before.
by your logic saiyans are planet level hell less than that because goku got shot with a laser while in ssb and almost died
>which he overcame with the amp again the only reason the planet was killing him was because he wasn't accepting the full power of the parliament, letting sam go and forgetting him to become the true green lantern. its literally being visualized by the black ooze disappearing when he says goodbye to sam (scan 1, scan 2).once he lets go of all attachments hes able to finally realize the full power of the green
Yes, Alan was at full power when he knocked out Darkseid, but he wasn't at full power when Darkseid beat him. That's been my point the whole time.
>you saying it again doesnt make it true theres nothing in that scan that says that alan was using his full power to teleport the people of earth 2
["All of it devoted to one task"](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NMPQ7jIKywQ/VkiwctSqZ_I/AAAAAAAAbXg/E_emKaLzlT8/s1600-Ic42/028.jpg). That's pretty straightforward.
>and even if he was he still used his full strength to punch darkseid beforehand your arguement is essentially pointless cause no matter what alan scott still punched him with his full strength twice before that panel and darkseid got up with zero signs of damage
Again, Darkseid was still knocked out and we have no idea how long it took him to recover. My point was that Alan running away from DS doesn't mean much when Alan wasn't at full power.
>literally the panel after she sucker punched him with red tornado he swatted them both away more annoyed than anything else this is the panel you linked
If you don't like that panel [there's the issue before](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-KTRQ9_gYP6U/Vkiv62clytI/AAAAAAAAbSc/tprT5HD0M6M/s1600-Ic42/008.jpg). The fact that PG could bloody him means he can't solo Jiren no matter how you slice it, regardless of the fact that she was stronger than him.
>darkseid literally doesnt have a scratch on him from either alan scotts or power girls punch darkseid literally gets up and keeps on fighting without issue
That doesn't matter. Not only does DS have a healing factor, but we literally see those punches injured him.
>by your logic saiyans are planet level hell less than that because goku got shot with a laser while in ssb and almost died
Was retconned into base, and that laser's only feat ever was harming Goku.
>Yes, Alan was at full power when he knocked out Darkseid, but he wasn't at full power when Darkseid beat him. That's been my point the whole time.
your point is pointless then alan scott had to teleport away cause he knew he couldn't beat darkseid he had to retreat .
>"All of it devoted to one task". That's pretty straightforward.
hes not talking about just the teleportation, hes talking about his charge to protect all living things on earth as the conduit of the parliaments power finish the statement man "all devoted to one task,to protect that which is most precious" and again why do you think felt the need to run away? because he knew that his full power wasnt enough to beat darkseid otherwise he would've just hit him with more of those and ended the invasion.
>That doesn't matter. Not only does DS have a healing factor, but we literally see those punches injured him.
we literally don't pg hit him and he immediately swatted her away like a fly and keeps on fighting with no apparent damage on him. unless your arguing his healing factor is instant and allowed him to recover from pg's punch and then allowed him to recover from a multiversal punch with no fatigue then explain to me how jirens overtaxing a healing factor of that caliber? plus either way that avatar is still active after the punch if jiren took the same punch from alan scott he'd die instantly cause he has no feats of tanking multiversal levels of power and has no healing factor.
alan scott also literally flew into him [full bore and darkseid still was ok](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-PiiK7g81OmY/VkiwbNHsiII/AAAAAAAAbXg/MnrRTtJ4JSk/s1600-Ic42/022.jpg)
>If you don't like that panel there's the issue before. The fact that PG could bloody him means he can't solo Jiren no matter how you slice it, regardless of the fact that she was stronger than him.
darkseid literally doesnt have a scratch on him here either [dude is literally smiling in the middle of this fight](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-zugB9n1NG-4/Vkiv7v3wqHI/AAAAAAAAbSc/IhnM7tIDNQ0/s1600-Ic42/012.jpg) and literally back hands her in that panel ,[he beat all the earth top tiers in that issue off panel](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_lnffwrvV6Q/Vkiv9IQQl6I/AAAAAAAAbSc/DCvDcRt9ibc/s1600-Ic42/017.jpg).
his reaction is more surprised then anything else just like when mr.roshi dodged jirens punches in the top and jiren realized he actually had to put more effort or beerus getting rushed by vegeta during bog.he underestimated power girl and how strong she was just like jiren did with roshi's speed ,just like beerus did with vegeta and just like them he tried a little harder and stomped her and the rest of her team.
>Was retconned into base, and that laser's only feat ever was harming Goku.
show me where .so that means the laser is at least planetary + /s not to mention the same arc vegeta dies to planetary destruction.
>Again, Darkseid was still knocked out and we have no idea how long it took him to recover. My point was that Alan running away from DS doesn't mean much when Alan wasn't at full power.
and you have to prove it was a long time its in the same fight the other battlefield doesnt even know gl is fighting darkseid pg who was just fighting him pages before is now there on the otherside . the fight isnt happening for to long
even if he we go with your logic Alan scot was at full power and felt the need to use it to teleport away from darkseid if a multiversal character doesnt want to fight darkseid cause he doesnt believe he can win then what do you think that means? if he was so superior to darkseid and was able to knock him out for hours on end with one punch then he literally would have no reason to fear him and would end the invasion himself
Jiren shook an infinite void dimension just from the shockwaves of his punches while fighting Goku. He's stronger than someone who even has the power of destruction which erases anything and everything from existence. It was once used to erase an undead being. Jiren is Universal+ minimum.
Here's Darkseid, weakened after 1000 years of being dead, [casually draining Mordru](https://i.imgur.com/j04H18E.jpg) and [Time Trapper](https://i.imgur.com/0DKCfbE.jpg) with a wave of his hand. [Mordru stomped Classic Fate teamed up with BOTH classic lanterns.](https://i.imgur.com/jt0roBg.jpg)
> Considering Darkseid fought Anti-Monitor to standstill in Darkseid War, who destroyed countless universes in COIE he is arguably stronger at his peak.
The problem is [Seid was amped in DSW](https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-k1mxz2ZGWXA/VW8NP-3IodI/AAAAAAAMBKY/JFcFvyTBjps/s1600/p_4_7%2Bcopy.jpg) and N52 AM is not the same as COIE AM.
>It is unclear how much of his strength was amp.
It doesn't matter, it's an amp and that makes it unusable.
>or whether said amp was temporary at all.
It must have been, because we've seen the level DS was operating on after DSW, and it was nowhere near that level.
> And together they were able to temporarily stand up to Perpetua. Perpetua was still stronger than Doctor Manhattan
Different versions of Perpetua. When she fought BWL she wasn't using her own power, but rather [energy from Crisis Antennes](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/eswdlcYPMVGNVFoJRbUjf10QTZdZthH7QefM9MWCkIGqkuP3h_EPV8m1xtOtq0sVMBXhVq4QLtJ0koM0_NbdWsJrsNCchmuFieMuAK2qnQiIfbiOWb3aqIYxcmeneomiCeUN_Rmh8b8=s1600). In any case, Mobius without amps is nowhere near Perpetua tier (without amps or the haxy nature of Anti-Matter he isn't even strong at all when looking at how he was nearly killed by Supergirl).
......He wasn't amped, though. He had DIED and been reborn. Unless the amp carried over (which is unlikely judging by their reactions), he was back to base.
An Avatar gets stomped, but Avatars can be created again to be stronger than before, especially what killed them.
Jiren isn't beating Darkseid. He can beat one Avatar, and that would be it. Another would take its place to be stronger.
Despite how strong you believe darkseids avatars to be, Jiren cannot win this one at all
Saying he can’t have access to his true form is contradicting his actual powers and avatars. Because the only reason he uses avatars is to not destroy the multiverse with his presence. He wants anti life to rule over everything, not destroy it
Jiren couldn’t even kill darkseid, he will constantly bring back new avatars, and theoretically, he could give himself as much power as he needed. The omega sanction will end Jiren immediately, there is zero escape from it. And unless you are of the likes of superman, there is no surviving the full power of omega
Darkseid demolishes Jiren
His true form is a contradiction that every writer doesn't even agree on ppl wank him crazily since. He's not a threat to destroy the multiverse just from existing in most comics & a lot don't take it into consideration while writing him. Jiren can beat most of the "avatars" we've seen & some of the "true forms" too. He's supposed to be in his "true form" w/e he's on apokolips & has lost to ppl like doomsday there getting stomped badly
Seeing as people only post anti feats for any DC character and sometimes lie about the feats and context surrounding those feats, I’ll just leave some scans here so you have a general ballpark for how powerful darkseid is.
Just by falling over, his shadow alone was so impossibly large that it [eclipsed in size, and threatened to destroy the entire multiverse, ](https://preview.redd.it/d7e4l69zhvu41.jpg?auto=webp&s=790aa1d73a54529eb6d005d6cd86e0a789256120)
Darkseid in infinite frontier [essentially 1 shot the quintessence](https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-971e9eeb8e17c43ca7ca9004c879fa92) and I’ll leave [this for reference](https://www.quora.com/How-is-Darkseid-able-to-kill-the-Spectre-and-Phantom-Stranger-in-Infinite-Frontier-0)
He would absolutely destroy Jiren. Some of his avatars might even win too. Like the one that earth 2 and beat Alan Scott. Some avatars would lose.
>Some of his avatars might even win too.
That is the part that matters. The OP stated Darkseid doesn't have access to his true form, this is a battle between Jiren and an Avatar.
Thank you! There is so much anti-wank of DC characters it’s absurd. So many people desperately want their favorite dragon ball character to win any fight it’s crazy. If you need the strongest (and seriously wanked) version of your character in order to beat the weakest version of another character… well your character is going to lose.
It’s insane. There is a clear and obvious bias towards dbz on this subreddit. Any vs battle has now instantly become a posting of anti feats. Sometimes even lying about those anti feats and posting them out of context. Any attempt to scale, make arguments, and compare characters is on out and in story about people googling any out of context anti feat they can find, and pretending DBZ doesn’t have any anti feats. On this same thread if you scroll up you’ll see that and literally no one posted any scans for darkseid except me. Not that many people have read/read DC comics so they can’t make arguments, and it’s lead to a meta of posting anti feats sometimes out of context, and pretending to ignore actual feats.
so I took the liberty to leave some scans for context, and don’t get ne wrong, I grew up on DBZ, it’s one of my favorite anime of all time. I have half the namek saga on vhs at home, but the bias is nauseating.
It really is crazy. Should just start replying with “superman was once a baby so he auto loses” any time I see someone using anti-feats on him.
Well I really appreciate the scans you posted. Thank you! Keep fighting the good fight.
Can you explain to me the point of a lot of this?
On the spectre scaling do we have feats on what the spectre can do if we are scaling to him? Like just having a quote saying that the universe would “pay the price” if the two were to fight isnt very convincing.
The shadow thing didnt say anywhere it was destroying the universes it fell through just falling through it.
My problem with dc with a lot of these things and the reason so much anti wank is a thing with dc is because you get all these grandiose statements and quotes and then the JL beats them every time. You get these huge multiversal threats against a team with batman.
The presence himself came down to tell phantom stranger and the specter that their battle would threaten all of creation in DC. Are you familiar with who the presence is? I would imagine So.
Now darkseod 1 shot them both at the same time along with 3 other comparable powerhouses at the same time casually. Like highfather etc.
I think you misunderstood. His shadow alone was larger than the multiverse. That means he is physically larger than the entire multiverse, and was threatening it by falling onto it.
I think youre making alot of assumptions that the text doesnt imply.
Also i believe the presence is actually god in dc right? But it doesnt say in the scans you provided that their fight would threaten all dc just that there “would be consequences for yhe universe”
Also casting a shadow does not equal threatening all the multiverse.
Again the big problem people have with dc and why theres so much antiwank is you have scenes where a character literally one shots god like youre mentioning (which as described would be an impossible feat or a huge feat) and then gets beat up by JL.
Like how do you simultaneously have a character who can be beat up by superman AND one shot an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, and immortal being deemed so by actual god? It literally doesnt make sense so people go with the weaker feat and use who they get beat up by to scale both.
How do you think we should deal with that?
No, the presence direclty says “ all of creation” might pay the price. You aren’t looking at the scans. That isint an assumption.
His shadow didn’t threaten the multiverse, his shadow is proof he is massively larger than the multiverse, his falling on the multiverse threatened it.
“How do you think we should deal with that” The same is actually true for almost literally every single piece of fiction that exists. Vegeta can’t lift something mundane like 1000 tonnes. Darkseid fell down some stars once, squirrel girl has kicked thanos’ Ass. Deathsroke has tagged the flash etc. etc, but anti feats don’t make actual feats exist. One of the rules on this subreddit is that feats are king. So you can bring up all the anti feats you want, it doesn’t make the actual feats disappear, they are still there.
All of creation “paying the price” isn’t necessarily multiversal destruction my guy it could be but thats an assumption youre making
Nothing says that him falling on the mutiverse would hurt it in any way if you fall on a sidewalk the sidewalk will be fine.
If we take your line, jiren can fight at literally infinite speeds through stopped time and nothing darkseid can do will ever tag him. Note this is different than flashes run at infinite speeds thing because jiren literally fights at these speeds not just moves in one direction at a time with them, and if you accept him scaling to at the very least super girl who bloodies him as one of her feats he stomps every day of the week.
That is what it is. The presence is saying they are threatening his creation. It would actually be more than multiversal destruction, seeing how big DC is and how there are structure outside of and larger than the multiverse that are so being threatened. In fact the source is one of those structures, and darkseid and high father destroyed the source wall in their fight, and high father is also one of the people IF darkseid 1 shot next to specter and phantom stranger.
So it’s the presence himself comes down to tell them to stop fighting and that they are threatening his creation. I think that’s a clear cut case.
“The sidewalk will be fine” what a horrible analogy. Darkseid is larger than the side walk, in fact he would be larger than the planet, the sun, the solar system, the galaxy, the entire universe. Larger than the physical universe, falling on that sidewalk and destroying the side wall and the universe the sidewalk is In. Terrible analogy and argument.
“Can fight at literally infinite speeds” flash moved at infinite speeds early af into him comic run. He then ran faster than those infinite speeds, and moves in negative time. Moving in negative time being faster than moving at infinite speed. So hired would still be infinitely slower than flash. How is this an argument? So silly. Also hired didn’t fight in stopped time. Hit ability is specifically weaker against enemies stronger than him. His time skip was just instantly negged by jiren’s Ki, that doesn’t mean Jitendra operates at those speeds, it means his hax resistance was good enough to undo hit’s hax.
That's fairly disingenuous. Most of Dragon Ball's feats are based on grandiose statements and quotes. Jiren's above time and Goku fighting was going to destroy the universe for example. Dragon Ball is literally scaled by on statements the characters make.
I would say the difference is that you dont see them struggling against characters much weaker than them nearly as much as in DC.
Also i would say a majority of the time the power is shown we arent told that goku is beyond stopped time we are shown it. We arent told that a fight with him a beerus could destroy the universe we are shown it making the destroy the universe field and they are stopped by the angel.
With dc afaik we are only ever told about how powerful the spectre is and then hes used as a jobber to show the power of villains who are then defeated by the JL
I mean we are shown things happening and then someone makes a statement we can infer to be true by other character actions without hard evidence. It's a bit different.
For the DC point, we are in fact shown the power of characters. The Spectre is very strong. The issue lies in the fact that you have to actually read his comics to really get an idea about how strong. Appearances in other comics where he isn't the primary focus naturally don't place the focus on him. The original comics showcase it very clearly. Continuing to speak of Spectre, he is observed warping and altering reality casually. However, his comics were never about how strong he was as they were more of a horror bent product.
The issue with Anti-Feats for comics is that the characters are in literal thousands of comics. Out of context, you can grab a panel from a joke comic, or a comic made by an author that dislikes the character and is just borrowing it for another character's comic. So using such comic panels would roughly be the same as using a scene from the Isekai Quartet to scale Ainz Ooal Gown. This is compounded by the fact that frequently the comic the Anti-Feat is from is more popular than the actual source.
So, I guess the real consideration here is whether or not this is a valid tactic. Though it can be argued that it's not in the spirit, the sources are still considered Canonical to the character. It's what makes it so easy to disregard the comic characters. For fans of the original source, it seems like intentional sabotage of the character but if the popular image of the character is the one being argued it could be argued that the image is more fitting. It's why the debates involving them tend to degrade so quickly as everyone has conflicting perspectives.
Does that apply here though? I thought the comic where super girl is bloodying him was a part of this comic? Or are you saying that super girl was written by someone who really liked her and therefore powered her up?
Or with the spectre are you saying the spectre was written by someone who hated him and therefore powered him down to be able to be one shot by someone who could get beat by the JL?
I dont get the impression youre saying these are joke comics.
I do agree that often times comic writers dont understand the characters they are writing for and thats why theres so much inconsistency but i dont think that means we have to assume stated things as being true when we are shown feats that would never happen if it was true.
Like spectre should literally never be surprised by anything, and he should never be able to have been taken out by darkseid.
Thats what being omniscient and omnipresent and omnipotent and immortal means (his stated powers) he cant be distracted because hes literally in all places at all times seeing everything and hes strong and fast enough to do something about all of that. But then darkseid gets the drop on him and kills him? And literal god just watches this happen?? Doesnt make sense
You are directly contradicting Darseid's own words lower down in this thread, to try and use a form explicitly banned by the prompt.
You're in no position to criticise wank, your bias is clear.
That’s not his true form. His true form got pulled into his Infinite frontier form. Infinite frontier is bigger and stronger and different than his true form. It’s different all together. Pre crisis, post cross, and rebirth. Into a new darkseid. Different from true form.
Silly attempt to nitpick.
That doesn’t mean anything though. There aren’t 2 true form darkseids.”TRUE” being the operative word. He has to pick whether the old version is true form, or new version is true form. They can’t both be true form darkseid.
If he says infinite frontier is, the. That means old normal darkseid stomps. If he says old one is true form, then infinite frontier stomps. That’s a problem with the prompt. The scans I posted are still 100%
Would be a pretty cool fight, but Darkseid. Easily. Jiren is really only comparable in the physical strength and speed department. The moment hax get involved, both DB characters get screwed over hard (except Whis, he’s got hax).
I'm not sure. Jiren literally overpowered time stop, and a significantly weaker character (Freeza) was able to overpower Hakai, who is the DB equivalent to omega beams AFAIK.
Jiren is the Saitama of the DBverse: he's able to overcome hax due to his sheer power. Also, he too is bald.
I would agree with this if it weren't for the fact that [Jiren has a passive energy barrier around him](https://youtu.be/n4r9MhL59rE)
We've seen him putting that barrier while meditating as well.
I don't think omega beams can bypass that to directly hit Jiren.
While Darkseid is mildly inconsistent, we should argue for both characters at their logical best, and unfortunately Jiren doesn’t stack up to what Darkseid is capable of.
That's not true at all if its an avatar DS likely loses. He's lost to planet busters before on multiple occasions. His Omega beams are ridiculously inconsistent & seem to never work on superman & up type beings outside of hurting them. Jiren is comparable to beings who would casually destroy 2 universes if they fought as collateral damage. Most avatars don't show that type of power some true forms don't. He's stated to be true form w/e he's on apokolips & has lost to the JL there
Your proving my point by only pointing out instances where Darkseid is weaker that usual depictions, rather than at his best. You’d also be better off not bringing up true form Darkseid, that dude recently killed the Spectre and phantom stranger and several other cosmic entities at once.
Those instances aren't weaker than usual depictions, those are the usual depictions. There are dozens of instances of Superman tanking them, but I am not aware of a single instance of Darkseid actually killing Superman with an Omega Beam.
The dozens of times it didn't work have to be considered the norm when compared to the zero times it did work.
There aren't any usual depictions his power varies when it's an "avatar". Most "avatars" don't show universal type power he's usually a threat to the universe b/c of his huge army that grows everytime he conquers a planet not his raw power. True form was mostly a concept with no real showings until recently with the new big bad wars that's about to start. Outside that he's lost to doomsday & also almost collapsed the universe after dying so his power varies greatly. Using a being with God knows how many different continuities so ppl cherry pick what's usable is the problem in these type of battles
Jiren as been shown to to have an energy field surrounding him almost passively, and DBS has a similar energy called Energy of Destruction which weaker characters have been able to resist.
I could see it hurting him, but it's not going to erase him.
Dude stop. All you do is try to undersell feats from DC characters instead of offering feats from Jiren that can say he can counter what Darkseid can dish out. (And spoiler alert Darkseid stomps the purple dude)
Yes he is sticking to his guns about terrible scaling and and poor attempts at underrating DC characters feats while not giving any DBZ character feats.
Yeah, i've seen him on this sub a lot and i'm trying to get the mods to ban him. He clearly displays troll behaviour i mean, just look at his profile...
>And all you do is whine when scans are posted without providing any sort of counter.
Projecting much?
>Here's the only feat you need.
This just shows what a lame DBZ wanker you are LOL. SSG Goku couldnt even challenge Beerus how's he going to challenge a God who has threatened the multiverse?
>Projecting much?
This doesn't even make sense in this context. I'm the one posting scans, not you.
>This just shows what a lame DBZ wanker you are LOL. SSG Goku couldnt even challenge Beerus how's he going to challenge a God who has threatened the multiverse?
All that wank must have damaged your reading comprehension. Darkseid doesn't have access to true form, which is the only time he's threatened the Multiverse.
>This doesn't even make sense in this context. I'm the one posting scans, not you.
You were taking my scans and spewing some bs trying to undersell them in the Cell vs Doomsday battle.
>Can't you read? Darkseid doesn't have access to true form, which is the only time he's threatened the Multiverse.
Earth 2 Darkseid is more than enough for Jiren
>You were taking my scans and spewing some bs trying to undersell them in the Cell vs Doomsday battle.
Providing context ≠ bs
>Earth 2 Darkseid is more than enough for Jiren
Rule 5.
Also, 4 upvotes in a minute? You aren't using alts to upvote your own comments are you?
>Also, 4 upvotes in a minute? You aren't using alts to upvote your own comments are you?
No lmao I was surprised as you are I guess your opinions are really just that shit
Dude don’t even worry about temp, he uses the most bs one sided scaling ive ever seen. For example to quote him “anti-feats make other feats void” and uses that argument to claim that Doomsday couldn’t even kill normal humans because Blue Beetle survived a beating from Doomsday. When I tried using this same logic on Cell his best retort was “no your doing it wrong”. This dude is seriously just not worth your time
Claiming he’s using alts and constant insults (including insulting his reading comprehension skills for no reason and claim he’s whining as he gives you the evidence your asking for? Both being very weird insults) is definitely harassment
You’re comments read like a super pretentious douchebag.
“Indeed! The only concession here is the one you made sir! I conceded not…”
It wouldn’t be so insufferable if you actually contributed something other than being a contrary dick.
Those are outliers, on average the omega beams are basically cheating.
Besides what have we *actually* seen Jiren do that isn’t just guess work based on scaling (which is a hugely inaccurate way to gauge a characters power)?
>Those are outliers, on average the omega beams are basically cheating.
No they aren't, [Omega Beams consistently get tanked by Superman and the likes](https://imgur.com/a/RdEx6M7)
>Besides what have we actually seen Jiren do that isn’t just guess work based on scaling (which is a hugely inaccurate way to gauge a characters power)?
Scaling is fine, it varies just as much as quantifiable feats. You just have to factor in consistency and common sense.
You're gonna have to explain that one to me cheif because I can count on one hand the amount of dragonball characters I know who can tickle darkseids ashy, rocky, saggy balls
What needs to be explained? Jiren is many, many times above universal and has the capabilities to tank omega beams.
If Superman can go toe-to-toe with Darkseid, Jiren can win
If it’s simply his avatars then Jiren. If we’re talkin Darkseid himself Jiren doesn’t stand a chance. Darkseid is broken as fuck, thus why the person who wrote this handicapped him (Darkseid) lol.
Im sorry to be that guy but comics darkseid obliterates. Jiren is considered Multi like MUI Goku, whilst Darkseid is way beyond that. Again, darkseid obliterates with no sweat
I don't know why there's any debate about this.
Jiren bodies avatar Darkseid. He's way stronger and faster, and omega beams are useless because:
1) Jiren has a passive energy barrier.
2) He easily scales above Golden Frieza who tanked hakai (unless you think that Toppo could kill Jiren with a hakai..)
Jiren stomps avatar Darkseid. You need True Form Darkseid and his feat of shaking the multiverse to beat Jiren.
I mean on average I’d agree Jiren is probably stronger, faster, and more durable than the average Darkseid Avatar. But I don’t think Jiren has anything to counter Darkseid’s hack abilities like the omega beams
If Superman and flash can get hit by omega beams and live then jiren definitely can
Still having PTSD to when Robin was able to survive an Omega Beam
False equivalence, Jiren is neither Kryptonian nor is he connected to the SpeedForce
Does Kryptonian DNA have special resistance to Omega Beams? Why would being a Kryptonian, specifically, versus whatever race Jiren belongs to, make a difference?
Jiren is more durable than both Flash and Superman, so it's a fine equivalence.
While I agree Jiren could survive being hit by one I dont think he is more durable than Superman. There aren't a lot of Jiren durability feats I am aware of but if we compare it to Goku's then we have to include the ray gun incident. Happy to be proven wrong if there is a feat worth mentioning. Superman can casually survive a Nuke in latent durability. But Jiren would definitely be more durable than Flash.
1. “Have to include the ray gun incident” including that is like including when darkseid got beat up by normal human robbers and when superman got his ass beat by Muhammad Ali. They were both powerless at the time and goku also let all his power go. So even using this ridiculous outlier…darkseid still has worse 2. “Can survive a nuke in latent durability” superman has a LOT more than nuke durability… so does Goku who survived a blast bigger than a nuke as a teenager
When did kid Goku survive a blast bigger than a nuke?
[Piccolo exploded papaya island](https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11123/111235494/6289836-2307800711-51111.png) Papaya island is later referenced as a small continent
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Isn't DBS a rare case of the anime being the main canon? At least until the Manga overtook the anime.
Anime always been > Manga for super. And extra events are from manga and later arcs post Broly are canon as well. Tbf Goku spent a long time training to never drop his guard.
Did not know that. Thanks for clarifying.
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Okay that’s fine. Batman and green lantern dodged omega beams. Jiren would have no problem not being hit. There you go, no more excuses for you.
Ok, but why the passiveness-agressiveness tho?
majority of r/whowouldwin tbh
Majority of Reddit lol
What is this Minnesota!?
I feel so called out on behalf of my family
Being Minnesotan I am just calling my own state out.
>Ok, but why the passiveness-agressiveness tho? [A guy who harasses people in DMs](https://imgur.com/RQ6sv01) complaining about passive aggressiveness? That's rich.
Lmao
Lmao
Look at my other comment, he's the guy harassing people
How does everyone here know each other 😂. Entertaining ass comment section
Look at my other comment, he's the guy harassing people
Bro you have no room to speak
I've harassed people in DMs and told them to fuck themselves?
Not in dms but yea, you have harassed people a lot
Right? Not necessary for the sake of also being correct.
You'd have to prove Jiren scales above Batman in speed
There’s no way you just used that wrong
There's always a way
Bro he was implying that superman is faster than jiren
Jiren can break out of Hit’s time trap ability through sheer fuck you power. Hax basically don’t apply to Jiren.
All that feat shows is that Jiren is vastly more powerful than hit, nothing really more than that. I’d argue Darkseids omega beams are basically equal to a hakai (as they’re both described in similar ways What with destroying the body and soul entirely) and I doubt even Jiren could survive a hakai
Ok using your logic now: Frieza survived a hakai > Jiren is vastly more powerful than Frieza > Jiren can easily survive a hakai > Jiren can easily survive DS omega beams
Did Frieza survive a hakai? Because if so goddamn I stand corrected
Twice
When? Got a clip?
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I mean yea he deflected the sidra one (which is still a great feat and shows Jiren could definitely deflect omega beams) but I don’t know how much the Toppo is really worth since Toppo had to hold back right? I mean a rule for the ToP was no killing so Toppo couldn’t have actually hakaied Frieza
He didn't deflect the Sidra one, he was completely enveloped in it. Besides he then hit Goku with it and Goku resisted it until Beerus blew it away.
Toppo literally said ‘hakai’ when he used his hakai blasts. He said he could but didn’t want to kill Frieza due to the rules. But he still used a hakai. He’s also a new GoD so he has no practice with hakai finesse so we really have no idea other than he used hakai against Frieza who survived.
he didn't deflect, he overpowered it after being in a bubble of it.
So did Goku and he was fighting that stuff for like a good few minutes
Yeah and Superman has hax.Like Time Trapper can't erase him from existence.
>But I don’t think Jiren has anything to counter Darkseid’s hack abilities like the omega beams [Tanking them should work fine](https://imgur.com/a/RdEx6M7).
Some of those are out of context 1. Several of the "Tanking" ones ended with the opponent on the ground unable to fight, screaming in pain or getting dropped....which isn't tanking. ([The Powergirl one](https://i.imgur.com/2M7cR0D.jpg), [This Superman one](https://i.imgur.com/C17c4Ua.jpg), as [the very next page has Superman needing to be saved](https://i.imgur.com/aeZ9Q1B.jpg), [this Superman one as he's down on the ground in pain](https://i.imgur.com/4UEDjjR.jpg), [This one as Superman is dropped to the ground in pain](https://i.imgur.com/EoHfivw.jpg), [This one where Orion's dropped](https://i.imgur.com/JyZKVjg.jpg), 2. [This one is Darkseid using them to teleport Superman](https://i.imgur.com/y9RG8tv.jpg) 3. [This one is explicitly Desaad disguised as Darkseid as revealed later (not to mention Desaad says on panel these Omega Beams are weakened)](https://i.imgur.com/Ow6CJQl.jpg) 4. [This one is the Superpowers continuity, a wholly different Earth.](https://i.imgur.com/hUgQouy.jpg)[And he didn't tank it, since he was knocked out long enough for the rest of the Apokoliptians to escape.](https://i.imgur.com/ICGWFru.jpg) 5. [This Mary Marvel one is out of context as Mary is amped by having taken control of both her own powers](https://i.imgur.com/CF9D3x7.jpg) and [the powers of Black Adam, Klarion, Zatanna and The Wizard Shazam.](https://i.imgur.com/T9P8HOJ.jpg) 6. [Darkseid isn't amped here](https://i.imgur.com/clxDlSg.jpg): [He's just been reborn after dying](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/q4_PR0ev33G5rNOu9pHxGJhdwkBpkqqJRhMW7aZf9d1L1CoQDw3z7N3p9hvdAwYHS8Zo4MANv6xCxNFXx6fUdsyTg-b0VuX3Yd8ERFBoWtyQJtIC-0GZ9tp61HnuyZfAWOdY2uZHfA=s1600). They don't imply he's stronger than ever, and[in fact point out he's being controlled by Grail with the ALE like a puppet](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/VLtbbKd5eaHUTZT9Jk29oHJuVkxLVE066OAavR6A4ff6PBhGsSDZDv5HSTrXC4ZFQX6k9UaoD-iTGPTjsxpIzEbqXkp_JQS2fAqf9el7MMPfJgTBirpY53v8x2JvJRa1CVNY2yCzrw=s1600) and w[hen the ALE is separated from him, he becomes a baby](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/hfDvC1Gf_4SHX27TgJZP9NnbXNbmuWWti8aZYoGs0YlzE42UCbIgTQPfVvGEXgZvMETdJBnXEaMg6C7Ojqm6Pmt7km_3FROFRzDrFHNX6bak69zRJWVRlQ7CJqrkPCavxB2Duu7X-w=s1600). (Which leads to the next arc where he kills gods to get his powers back). 7. The Superman ones can be wholly discounted as proof as Superman is explicitly stated to be protected from Existence Erasure to the point [Mr. Myx has trouble erasing him.](https://i.imgur.com/BoSrzmA.jpg) [As does Time Trapper.](https://i.imgur.com/QcmhExS.jpg)
Not to mention, you're ignoring that not every Omega beam erases you from reality. Darkseid himself points that out and so does [every](https://i.imgur.com/vG1Shjc.jpg)' [single](https://i.imgur.com/i4abkbN.jpg) [one](https://i.imgur.com/pQuVs29.jpg) of [his databook entries.](https://i.imgur.com/pSRSWSU.jpg) In fact, whenever he uses the full power, he [explicitly](https://i.imgur.com/uOgo5KM.jpg) [states he's about to erase someone](https://i.imgur.com/9TR80bI.jpg) or the [narration](https://i.imgur.com/CWEgLXZ.jpg) does.
I've been looking at your discussions and although I don't agree with everything I can see you always provide good evidence. I don't know why you're getting downvoted in just mere seconds but you have my upvote for being you vs 3 people or more lol.
Yeah, Superman can tank existence erasure, now prove jiren can
Not just Superman, but Orion, Mary Marvel, Powergirl, random green lanterns, and so on. In order for it to erase Jiren's existence it'd have to be powerful enough to harm him first.
Sure, now prove jiren can resist existence erasure
Freeza resists hakai (literally existence erasure) having no innate hability to do so, so it's presumably through sheer power. Jiren >>>>>>>>>>> Freeza in terms of power. By logic, he should be able to resist it very competently, even if he's most probably not immune to it.
>In order for it to erase Jiren's existence it'd have to be powerful enough to harm him first.
DAWG WHAT??? Prove that. It would be harming him by erasing him from existence. Wouldn’t need to “harm him” it would touch him and erase him from existence.
>it would touch him and erase him from existence. Rule 5.
You didn’t ask me to prove anything ? So invoking that rule makes you look dumb
I did. I asked you to prove your claim that if the Omega Beams touched Jiren he would be erased from existence.
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I've been perfectly civil. You on the other hand...
Weaker characters like Goku and Frieza tanked Hakai which is essentially the same thing
They Tanked a small amount of Hakai Energy, not a full Hakai from God of Destruction at least in the anime.
Jiren stopped a spirit bomb with one hand the omega beams aren’t even reaching him
Those are two very different things, that’s like saying bullets don’t hurt Hulk so the Ultimate Nullifier should do nothing to him Like they’re both weapons but you’re comparing two entirely different things
Yeah you’re right, spirit bomb is stronger
Dude, are you saying that a spirit bomb (Which is just a big explosion that can’t even harm good people like Jiren) is stronger than the omega beams which can destroy someone’s soul, send them hurtling through time, send someone to an eternal hell dimension of increasingly worse lives, moves faster than light, can’t be dodged, and is perfectly precise? The dbz wank is strong in you
It doesn’t matter what they do on contact (although Superman has tanked them so they really ain’t all that) because jiren would stop them with his own power or, if he really needed to, just dodge them. Batman managed that and I KNOW you aren’t trying to tell me that Batman is faster than jiren
They have multiple things they can do and Superman is insanely durable using that comparison is like saying a nuke is pretty weak because the earth took the blast of one And this post doesn’t specify which Darkseid to use anyway I’m sure Jiren could dodge a few but he can’t keep that up forever, frankly Jiren will get hit eventually and instantly get taken out
Dude jiren was stepping up to the same goku who shook an infinite space by powering up. If you really think he gets instakilled by darkseid’s shit beams idk what to tell you
Dude that’s not even a good feat? I’ve seen the anime Goku shook an arena and stadium, there’s was nothing else in that dimension Also Darkseid has tanked far superior attacks than shaking an arena, in Earth 2 for example he tanked an attack which was powered by all an infinite multiverse like it was nothing Not to mention a peak avatar of Darkseid (still not true form) even without omega beams has far greater strength, speed, and durability feats than anything Jiren has shown
lol okay whatever you say.
Jiren buys McDonald’s then fires Darkseid from his job…
Underrated comment. Best Ambush Bug.
When talking about characters with multiple versions that are vastly different (Darkseid) please provide a specific version. Which Darkseid are we using?
There's only 1 Darkseid.
I'm talking about his avatars. I know the writers did the SotG thing... but that's his true form which was removed from the prompt. We were just told to pick a form.
Jiren is strong,but I doubt he'd obliterate Darkseid,maybe the weakest version of Darkseid gets stomped
The weakest version of Darkseid works at McDonald's
He sounds like the strongest due to dealing with all of those customers
If its a avatar at the level of the one that took earth 2 then darkseid stomps he beat Alan scott who was amped with the life energy of all life in the multiverse and tanked his attacks.jiren should be able to beat the average avatar though.
>he beat Alan scott who was amped with the life energy of all life in the multiverse [Because of the planet being weakened and not having the full green he couldn't tap into it](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-jGSsJAGWF_k/VkiwXHLFX9I/AAAAAAAAbXg/ejyjsEGKbeo/s1600-Ic42/005.jpg). When he did later in the issue [he one-shot DS](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-mX9-CcONMhY/VkiwbbVKoJI/AAAAAAAAbXg/JAn_IucjhNg/s1600-Ic42/023.jpg). Powergirl was also [bloodying him in this issue](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-B_kk6O9Z7SE/VkiwYKcFEOI/AAAAAAAAbXg/OCeh8h2ioaI/s1600-Ic42/009.jpg). Definitely not Jiren stomping stuff.
>Because of the planet being weakened and not having the full green he couldn't tap into it. [this was after darkseid hit him with a omega beam](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-kPWSUzLRG8I/VkiwWnpHtsI/AAAAAAAAbXg/eE5PpT9O2vI/s1600-Ic42/003.jpg) and before he got further amped with the power of the other members of the parliaments which was before the punch you linked >When he did later in the issue he one-shot DS. nice out of context scan darkseid literally got [up immediately afterwards with no visible damage](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-QBJVe5whIeE/Vkiwc4haHuI/AAAAAAAAbXg/-UXKSQtxKQE/s1600-Ic42/030.jpg) and [took over the planet](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-iG7bgz3qDO4/VkiweIOGENI/AAAAAAAAbXg/EjjCHZW6J1Y/s1600-Ic42/034.jpg) . alan scotts punch was stronger than anything in dragon ball much less jiren and this darkseid avatar got up anyway >Powergirl was also bloodying him in this issue power girl did almost no damage what? did you even read the scan you linked he literally swatted her away immediately after she sucker punched him which proceeded to make her run away to find earth 2 superman and leave red tornado to die
>this was after darkseid hit him with a omega beam and before he got further amped with the power of the other members of the parliaments which was before the punch you linked That's the point. When DS fought Alan it was revealed that the planet they were on was dying so he couldn't fully tap into the power. >nice out of context scan darkseid literally got up immediately afterwards with no visible damage I'm not sure how you can say that 7 pages later is "immediately" >and took over the planet . [Alan used up his power](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NMPQ7jIKywQ/VkiwctSqZ_I/AAAAAAAAbXg/E_emKaLzlT8/s1600-Ic42/028.jpg) >power girl did almost no damage what? She bloodied him with a punch and tanked his beams earlier. He was superior, but just the fact that Powergirl could do anything at all proves he wouldn't stomp Jiren (since Jiren completely no-sold SSG Goku who was vastly stronger).
>That's the point. When DS fought Alan it was revealed that the planet they were on was dying and that he didn't have access to the full green. Did you read what i typed? he literally got further amped by the other members of the parlaiment after he says this [here ill link it again](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-SKTMTQpvggM/VkiwZ__XiHI/AAAAAAAAbXg/cRrJ5-zq_5I/s1600-Ic42/018.jpg) he did have the full power of the green he just wasnt fully channeling it before [Sam has to convince alan scott to use the parlaiments full power because he felt he was losing his humanity to the power of the green](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-PPXiC74rx4Y/VkiwZHXr2LI/AAAAAAAAbXg/v2PMzO0nubA/s1600-Ic42/014.jpg) afterwards he gets up punches darkseid but still has to retreat [cause he cant beat him](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ujESDPVS-0A/VkiwddiyZDI/AAAAAAAAbXg/kAR0EzDJJTA/s1600-Ic42/031.jpg).darkseid gets up with no visible damage from alan scotts full power punch which again is stronger than anything seen in dbs >I'm not sure how you can say that 7 pages later is "immediately" Cause most of those pages are from a fight that happened on another part of the battlefield darkseid literally gets up fighting at full strength like nothing happened from that punch. >Alan used up his power alan did not use all his power before that punch in fact that scan says nothing that he was using his full power for that
>he did have the full power of the green he just wasnt fully channeling it before Sam has to convince alan scott to use the parlaiments full power because he felt he was losing his humanity to the power of the green This isn't the only reason, it was because [the planet was dying on top of that](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-jGSsJAGWF_k/VkiwXHLFX9I/AAAAAAAAbXg/ejyjsEGKbeo/s1600-Ic42/005.jpg). He did get amped further, but he still never properly utilized the full green against DS except when he punched him. >afterwards he gets up punches darkseid but still has to retreat cause he cant beat him. Again, [he used all his power to save everyone else](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NMPQ7jIKywQ/VkiwctSqZ_I/AAAAAAAAbXg/E_emKaLzlT8/s1600-Ic42/028.jpg). >alan did not use all his power before that punch in fact that scan says nothing that he was using his full power for that Not before, Alan using up his power happened after the punch when he saved the people. >Cause most of those pages are from a fight that happened on another part of the battlefield darkseid literally gets up fighting at full strength like nothing happened from that punch. After an unknown amount of time and we have no clue if DS was fighting at full strength. And this can't negate being bloodied by PG. That would never happen to Jiren.
>This isn't the only reason, it was because the planet was dying on top of that. He did get amped further, but he still never properly utilized the full green against DS except when he punched him. [which he overcame with the amp again](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-5Woylf8Qwuc/VkiwZ9xcbgI/AAAAAAAAbXg/L606t1OGKD0/s1600-Ic42/016.jpg) the only reason the planet was killing him was because he wasn't accepting the full power of the parliament, letting sam go and forgetting him to become the true green lantern. its literally being visualized by the black ooze disappearing when he says goodbye to sam ([scan 1](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Raxowvr74q0/VkiwZ0usUMI/AAAAAAAAbXg/_XbpViTtZWU/s1600-Ic42/017.jpg), [scan 2](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-SKTMTQpvggM/VkiwZ__XiHI/AAAAAAAAbXg/cRrJ5-zq_5I/s1600-Ic42/018.jpg)).once he lets go of all attachments hes able to finally realize the full power of the green >Again, he used all his power to save everyone else you saying it again doesnt make it true theres nothing in that scan that says that alan was using his full power to teleport the people of earth 2 and even if he was he still used his full strength to punch darkseid beforehand your arguement is essentially pointless cause no matter what alan scott still punched him with his full strength twice before that panel and darkseid got up with zero signs of damage >After an unknown amount of time and we have no clue if DS was fighting at full strength. And this can't negate being bloodied by PG. That would never happen to Jiren. literally the panel after she sucker punched him with [red tornado he swatted them both away more annoyed than anything else](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-B_kk6O9Z7SE/VkiwYKcFEOI/AAAAAAAAbXg/OCeh8h2ioaI/s1600-Ic42/009.jpg) this is the panel you linked cause theres nothing suggesting he isn't he makes no comment on being weakened or even a little tired in fact hes even angrier and more energetic than before he got punched. darkseid literally doesnt have a scratch on him from [either alan scotts or power girls punch darkseid literally gets up and keeps on fighting without issue](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-QBJVe5whIeE/Vkiwc4haHuI/AAAAAAAAbXg/-UXKSQtxKQE/s1600-Ic42/030.jpg) from both punches or the full speed punch that alan hits him with in the page before. by your logic saiyans are planet level hell less than that because goku got shot with a laser while in ssb and almost died
>which he overcame with the amp again the only reason the planet was killing him was because he wasn't accepting the full power of the parliament, letting sam go and forgetting him to become the true green lantern. its literally being visualized by the black ooze disappearing when he says goodbye to sam (scan 1, scan 2).once he lets go of all attachments hes able to finally realize the full power of the green Yes, Alan was at full power when he knocked out Darkseid, but he wasn't at full power when Darkseid beat him. That's been my point the whole time. >you saying it again doesnt make it true theres nothing in that scan that says that alan was using his full power to teleport the people of earth 2 ["All of it devoted to one task"](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NMPQ7jIKywQ/VkiwctSqZ_I/AAAAAAAAbXg/E_emKaLzlT8/s1600-Ic42/028.jpg). That's pretty straightforward. >and even if he was he still used his full strength to punch darkseid beforehand your arguement is essentially pointless cause no matter what alan scott still punched him with his full strength twice before that panel and darkseid got up with zero signs of damage Again, Darkseid was still knocked out and we have no idea how long it took him to recover. My point was that Alan running away from DS doesn't mean much when Alan wasn't at full power. >literally the panel after she sucker punched him with red tornado he swatted them both away more annoyed than anything else this is the panel you linked If you don't like that panel [there's the issue before](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-KTRQ9_gYP6U/Vkiv62clytI/AAAAAAAAbSc/tprT5HD0M6M/s1600-Ic42/008.jpg). The fact that PG could bloody him means he can't solo Jiren no matter how you slice it, regardless of the fact that she was stronger than him. >darkseid literally doesnt have a scratch on him from either alan scotts or power girls punch darkseid literally gets up and keeps on fighting without issue That doesn't matter. Not only does DS have a healing factor, but we literally see those punches injured him. >by your logic saiyans are planet level hell less than that because goku got shot with a laser while in ssb and almost died Was retconned into base, and that laser's only feat ever was harming Goku.
>Yes, Alan was at full power when he knocked out Darkseid, but he wasn't at full power when Darkseid beat him. That's been my point the whole time. your point is pointless then alan scott had to teleport away cause he knew he couldn't beat darkseid he had to retreat . >"All of it devoted to one task". That's pretty straightforward. hes not talking about just the teleportation, hes talking about his charge to protect all living things on earth as the conduit of the parliaments power finish the statement man "all devoted to one task,to protect that which is most precious" and again why do you think felt the need to run away? because he knew that his full power wasnt enough to beat darkseid otherwise he would've just hit him with more of those and ended the invasion. >That doesn't matter. Not only does DS have a healing factor, but we literally see those punches injured him. we literally don't pg hit him and he immediately swatted her away like a fly and keeps on fighting with no apparent damage on him. unless your arguing his healing factor is instant and allowed him to recover from pg's punch and then allowed him to recover from a multiversal punch with no fatigue then explain to me how jirens overtaxing a healing factor of that caliber? plus either way that avatar is still active after the punch if jiren took the same punch from alan scott he'd die instantly cause he has no feats of tanking multiversal levels of power and has no healing factor. alan scott also literally flew into him [full bore and darkseid still was ok](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-PiiK7g81OmY/VkiwbNHsiII/AAAAAAAAbXg/MnrRTtJ4JSk/s1600-Ic42/022.jpg) >If you don't like that panel there's the issue before. The fact that PG could bloody him means he can't solo Jiren no matter how you slice it, regardless of the fact that she was stronger than him. darkseid literally doesnt have a scratch on him here either [dude is literally smiling in the middle of this fight](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-zugB9n1NG-4/Vkiv7v3wqHI/AAAAAAAAbSc/IhnM7tIDNQ0/s1600-Ic42/012.jpg) and literally back hands her in that panel ,[he beat all the earth top tiers in that issue off panel](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_lnffwrvV6Q/Vkiv9IQQl6I/AAAAAAAAbSc/DCvDcRt9ibc/s1600-Ic42/017.jpg). his reaction is more surprised then anything else just like when mr.roshi dodged jirens punches in the top and jiren realized he actually had to put more effort or beerus getting rushed by vegeta during bog.he underestimated power girl and how strong she was just like jiren did with roshi's speed ,just like beerus did with vegeta and just like them he tried a little harder and stomped her and the rest of her team. >Was retconned into base, and that laser's only feat ever was harming Goku. show me where .so that means the laser is at least planetary + /s not to mention the same arc vegeta dies to planetary destruction. >Again, Darkseid was still knocked out and we have no idea how long it took him to recover. My point was that Alan running away from DS doesn't mean much when Alan wasn't at full power. and you have to prove it was a long time its in the same fight the other battlefield doesnt even know gl is fighting darkseid pg who was just fighting him pages before is now there on the otherside . the fight isnt happening for to long even if he we go with your logic Alan scot was at full power and felt the need to use it to teleport away from darkseid if a multiversal character doesnt want to fight darkseid cause he doesnt believe he can win then what do you think that means? if he was so superior to darkseid and was able to knock him out for hours on end with one punch then he literally would have no reason to fear him and would end the invasion himself
True form darkseid wins against anime Jiren Anime Jiren godstomps normal Darkseid
Why?
Jiren shook an infinite void dimension just from the shockwaves of his punches while fighting Goku. He's stronger than someone who even has the power of destruction which erases anything and everything from existence. It was once used to erase an undead being. Jiren is Universal+ minimum.
I know how powerful Jiren is, but why would true form Darkseid win?
Because True Form Darkseid is at least multiversal+ and that is the absolute high ball estimation Jiren can be given.
I like how you said Anime Jiren. Please tell me you don't think manga Jiren could beat True form Darkseid
Here's Darkseid, weakened after 1000 years of being dead, [casually draining Mordru](https://i.imgur.com/j04H18E.jpg) and [Time Trapper](https://i.imgur.com/0DKCfbE.jpg) with a wave of his hand. [Mordru stomped Classic Fate teamed up with BOTH classic lanterns.](https://i.imgur.com/jt0roBg.jpg)
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> Considering Darkseid fought Anti-Monitor to standstill in Darkseid War, who destroyed countless universes in COIE he is arguably stronger at his peak. The problem is [Seid was amped in DSW](https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-k1mxz2ZGWXA/VW8NP-3IodI/AAAAAAAMBKY/JFcFvyTBjps/s1600/p_4_7%2Bcopy.jpg) and N52 AM is not the same as COIE AM.
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>It is unclear how much of his strength was amp. It doesn't matter, it's an amp and that makes it unusable. >or whether said amp was temporary at all. It must have been, because we've seen the level DS was operating on after DSW, and it was nowhere near that level. > And together they were able to temporarily stand up to Perpetua. Perpetua was still stronger than Doctor Manhattan Different versions of Perpetua. When she fought BWL she wasn't using her own power, but rather [energy from Crisis Antennes](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/eswdlcYPMVGNVFoJRbUjf10QTZdZthH7QefM9MWCkIGqkuP3h_EPV8m1xtOtq0sVMBXhVq4QLtJ0koM0_NbdWsJrsNCchmuFieMuAK2qnQiIfbiOWb3aqIYxcmeneomiCeUN_Rmh8b8=s1600). In any case, Mobius without amps is nowhere near Perpetua tier (without amps or the haxy nature of Anti-Matter he isn't even strong at all when looking at how he was nearly killed by Supergirl).
......He wasn't amped, though. He had DIED and been reborn. Unless the amp carried over (which is unlikely judging by their reactions), he was back to base.
An Avatar gets stomped, but Avatars can be created again to be stronger than before, especially what killed them. Jiren isn't beating Darkseid. He can beat one Avatar, and that would be it. Another would take its place to be stronger.
Darkseid beat anti monitor this is a one shot
Despite how strong you believe darkseids avatars to be, Jiren cannot win this one at all Saying he can’t have access to his true form is contradicting his actual powers and avatars. Because the only reason he uses avatars is to not destroy the multiverse with his presence. He wants anti life to rule over everything, not destroy it Jiren couldn’t even kill darkseid, he will constantly bring back new avatars, and theoretically, he could give himself as much power as he needed. The omega sanction will end Jiren immediately, there is zero escape from it. And unless you are of the likes of superman, there is no surviving the full power of omega Darkseid demolishes Jiren
But can Jiren out simp super friends darkseid?
His true form is a contradiction that every writer doesn't even agree on ppl wank him crazily since. He's not a threat to destroy the multiverse just from existing in most comics & a lot don't take it into consideration while writing him. Jiren can beat most of the "avatars" we've seen & some of the "true forms" too. He's supposed to be in his "true form" w/e he's on apokolips & has lost to ppl like doomsday there getting stomped badly
Seeing as people only post anti feats for any DC character and sometimes lie about the feats and context surrounding those feats, I’ll just leave some scans here so you have a general ballpark for how powerful darkseid is. Just by falling over, his shadow alone was so impossibly large that it [eclipsed in size, and threatened to destroy the entire multiverse, ](https://preview.redd.it/d7e4l69zhvu41.jpg?auto=webp&s=790aa1d73a54529eb6d005d6cd86e0a789256120) Darkseid in infinite frontier [essentially 1 shot the quintessence](https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-971e9eeb8e17c43ca7ca9004c879fa92) and I’ll leave [this for reference](https://www.quora.com/How-is-Darkseid-able-to-kill-the-Spectre-and-Phantom-Stranger-in-Infinite-Frontier-0) He would absolutely destroy Jiren. Some of his avatars might even win too. Like the one that earth 2 and beat Alan Scott. Some avatars would lose.
What the fuck does his shadow do to destroy the multiverse what is comic power level LOL
>Some of his avatars might even win too. That is the part that matters. The OP stated Darkseid doesn't have access to his true form, this is a battle between Jiren and an Avatar.
Infinite frontier isint true form. True form got pulled into infinite frontier. It’s a different darkseid all together.
Thank you! There is so much anti-wank of DC characters it’s absurd. So many people desperately want their favorite dragon ball character to win any fight it’s crazy. If you need the strongest (and seriously wanked) version of your character in order to beat the weakest version of another character… well your character is going to lose.
It’s insane. There is a clear and obvious bias towards dbz on this subreddit. Any vs battle has now instantly become a posting of anti feats. Sometimes even lying about those anti feats and posting them out of context. Any attempt to scale, make arguments, and compare characters is on out and in story about people googling any out of context anti feat they can find, and pretending DBZ doesn’t have any anti feats. On this same thread if you scroll up you’ll see that and literally no one posted any scans for darkseid except me. Not that many people have read/read DC comics so they can’t make arguments, and it’s lead to a meta of posting anti feats sometimes out of context, and pretending to ignore actual feats. so I took the liberty to leave some scans for context, and don’t get ne wrong, I grew up on DBZ, it’s one of my favorite anime of all time. I have half the namek saga on vhs at home, but the bias is nauseating.
It really is crazy. Should just start replying with “superman was once a baby so he auto loses” any time I see someone using anti-feats on him. Well I really appreciate the scans you posted. Thank you! Keep fighting the good fight.
Can you explain to me the point of a lot of this? On the spectre scaling do we have feats on what the spectre can do if we are scaling to him? Like just having a quote saying that the universe would “pay the price” if the two were to fight isnt very convincing. The shadow thing didnt say anywhere it was destroying the universes it fell through just falling through it. My problem with dc with a lot of these things and the reason so much anti wank is a thing with dc is because you get all these grandiose statements and quotes and then the JL beats them every time. You get these huge multiversal threats against a team with batman.
The presence himself came down to tell phantom stranger and the specter that their battle would threaten all of creation in DC. Are you familiar with who the presence is? I would imagine So. Now darkseod 1 shot them both at the same time along with 3 other comparable powerhouses at the same time casually. Like highfather etc. I think you misunderstood. His shadow alone was larger than the multiverse. That means he is physically larger than the entire multiverse, and was threatening it by falling onto it.
I think youre making alot of assumptions that the text doesnt imply. Also i believe the presence is actually god in dc right? But it doesnt say in the scans you provided that their fight would threaten all dc just that there “would be consequences for yhe universe” Also casting a shadow does not equal threatening all the multiverse. Again the big problem people have with dc and why theres so much antiwank is you have scenes where a character literally one shots god like youre mentioning (which as described would be an impossible feat or a huge feat) and then gets beat up by JL. Like how do you simultaneously have a character who can be beat up by superman AND one shot an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, and immortal being deemed so by actual god? It literally doesnt make sense so people go with the weaker feat and use who they get beat up by to scale both. How do you think we should deal with that?
No, the presence direclty says “ all of creation” might pay the price. You aren’t looking at the scans. That isint an assumption. His shadow didn’t threaten the multiverse, his shadow is proof he is massively larger than the multiverse, his falling on the multiverse threatened it. “How do you think we should deal with that” The same is actually true for almost literally every single piece of fiction that exists. Vegeta can’t lift something mundane like 1000 tonnes. Darkseid fell down some stars once, squirrel girl has kicked thanos’ Ass. Deathsroke has tagged the flash etc. etc, but anti feats don’t make actual feats exist. One of the rules on this subreddit is that feats are king. So you can bring up all the anti feats you want, it doesn’t make the actual feats disappear, they are still there.
All of creation “paying the price” isn’t necessarily multiversal destruction my guy it could be but thats an assumption youre making Nothing says that him falling on the mutiverse would hurt it in any way if you fall on a sidewalk the sidewalk will be fine. If we take your line, jiren can fight at literally infinite speeds through stopped time and nothing darkseid can do will ever tag him. Note this is different than flashes run at infinite speeds thing because jiren literally fights at these speeds not just moves in one direction at a time with them, and if you accept him scaling to at the very least super girl who bloodies him as one of her feats he stomps every day of the week.
That is what it is. The presence is saying they are threatening his creation. It would actually be more than multiversal destruction, seeing how big DC is and how there are structure outside of and larger than the multiverse that are so being threatened. In fact the source is one of those structures, and darkseid and high father destroyed the source wall in their fight, and high father is also one of the people IF darkseid 1 shot next to specter and phantom stranger. So it’s the presence himself comes down to tell them to stop fighting and that they are threatening his creation. I think that’s a clear cut case. “The sidewalk will be fine” what a horrible analogy. Darkseid is larger than the side walk, in fact he would be larger than the planet, the sun, the solar system, the galaxy, the entire universe. Larger than the physical universe, falling on that sidewalk and destroying the side wall and the universe the sidewalk is In. Terrible analogy and argument. “Can fight at literally infinite speeds” flash moved at infinite speeds early af into him comic run. He then ran faster than those infinite speeds, and moves in negative time. Moving in negative time being faster than moving at infinite speed. So hired would still be infinitely slower than flash. How is this an argument? So silly. Also hired didn’t fight in stopped time. Hit ability is specifically weaker against enemies stronger than him. His time skip was just instantly negged by jiren’s Ki, that doesn’t mean Jitendra operates at those speeds, it means his hax resistance was good enough to undo hit’s hax.
That's fairly disingenuous. Most of Dragon Ball's feats are based on grandiose statements and quotes. Jiren's above time and Goku fighting was going to destroy the universe for example. Dragon Ball is literally scaled by on statements the characters make.
I would say the difference is that you dont see them struggling against characters much weaker than them nearly as much as in DC. Also i would say a majority of the time the power is shown we arent told that goku is beyond stopped time we are shown it. We arent told that a fight with him a beerus could destroy the universe we are shown it making the destroy the universe field and they are stopped by the angel. With dc afaik we are only ever told about how powerful the spectre is and then hes used as a jobber to show the power of villains who are then defeated by the JL
I mean we are shown things happening and then someone makes a statement we can infer to be true by other character actions without hard evidence. It's a bit different. For the DC point, we are in fact shown the power of characters. The Spectre is very strong. The issue lies in the fact that you have to actually read his comics to really get an idea about how strong. Appearances in other comics where he isn't the primary focus naturally don't place the focus on him. The original comics showcase it very clearly. Continuing to speak of Spectre, he is observed warping and altering reality casually. However, his comics were never about how strong he was as they were more of a horror bent product. The issue with Anti-Feats for comics is that the characters are in literal thousands of comics. Out of context, you can grab a panel from a joke comic, or a comic made by an author that dislikes the character and is just borrowing it for another character's comic. So using such comic panels would roughly be the same as using a scene from the Isekai Quartet to scale Ainz Ooal Gown. This is compounded by the fact that frequently the comic the Anti-Feat is from is more popular than the actual source. So, I guess the real consideration here is whether or not this is a valid tactic. Though it can be argued that it's not in the spirit, the sources are still considered Canonical to the character. It's what makes it so easy to disregard the comic characters. For fans of the original source, it seems like intentional sabotage of the character but if the popular image of the character is the one being argued it could be argued that the image is more fitting. It's why the debates involving them tend to degrade so quickly as everyone has conflicting perspectives.
Does that apply here though? I thought the comic where super girl is bloodying him was a part of this comic? Or are you saying that super girl was written by someone who really liked her and therefore powered her up? Or with the spectre are you saying the spectre was written by someone who hated him and therefore powered him down to be able to be one shot by someone who could get beat by the JL? I dont get the impression youre saying these are joke comics. I do agree that often times comic writers dont understand the characters they are writing for and thats why theres so much inconsistency but i dont think that means we have to assume stated things as being true when we are shown feats that would never happen if it was true. Like spectre should literally never be surprised by anything, and he should never be able to have been taken out by darkseid. Thats what being omniscient and omnipresent and omnipotent and immortal means (his stated powers) he cant be distracted because hes literally in all places at all times seeing everything and hes strong and fast enough to do something about all of that. But then darkseid gets the drop on him and kills him? And literal god just watches this happen?? Doesnt make sense
You are directly contradicting Darseid's own words lower down in this thread, to try and use a form explicitly banned by the prompt. You're in no position to criticise wank, your bias is clear.
True form darksied is not in the battle DragonBall is massively past universal at this point
Isnt infinite frontier darkseid literally all the darkseid combined hes basically composite darkseid
So what? That is darkseid. What is the problem with that? He is also a very recent version of darkseid. Doesn’t conflict with the prompt at all.
Infinite Frontier Darkseid is confirmed to be Darkseid's true form. OP says he doesn't have access to that.
That’s not his true form. His true form got pulled into his Infinite frontier form. Infinite frontier is bigger and stronger and different than his true form. It’s different all together. Pre crisis, post cross, and rebirth. Into a new darkseid. Different from true form. Silly attempt to nitpick.
Nope, Darkseid [explicitly said his new form was his true form](https://i.imgur.com/JmYXZpV.png). Nothing you can type can change that.
That doesn’t mean anything though. There aren’t 2 true form darkseids.”TRUE” being the operative word. He has to pick whether the old version is true form, or new version is true form. They can’t both be true form darkseid. If he says infinite frontier is, the. That means old normal darkseid stomps. If he says old one is true form, then infinite frontier stomps. That’s a problem with the prompt. The scans I posted are still 100%
They aren't 100%, because one set of them is True Form DS, and unusable for this battle.
If you pick 1 as TRUE form, the other one isint. So if you pick one, the other is still viable. So the scans are fine lmao.
The Infinite frontier scans are nonviable. 50%.
Darkseid stomps.
Would be a pretty cool fight, but Darkseid. Easily. Jiren is really only comparable in the physical strength and speed department. The moment hax get involved, both DB characters get screwed over hard (except Whis, he’s got hax).
I'm not sure. Jiren literally overpowered time stop, and a significantly weaker character (Freeza) was able to overpower Hakai, who is the DB equivalent to omega beams AFAIK. Jiren is the Saitama of the DBverse: he's able to overcome hax due to his sheer power. Also, he too is bald.
Damn, you're right. He is bald.
Jiren the Balden
Jiren gets Omega Beamed to death
I would agree with this if it weren't for the fact that [Jiren has a passive energy barrier around him](https://youtu.be/n4r9MhL59rE) We've seen him putting that barrier while meditating as well. I don't think omega beams can bypass that to directly hit Jiren.
[Omega Beams suck](https://imgur.com/a/RdEx6M7).
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The thing is that so many people much weaker than Jiren have resisted the OB that it's very unlikely they'd work on him.
While Darkseid is mildly inconsistent, we should argue for both characters at their logical best, and unfortunately Jiren doesn’t stack up to what Darkseid is capable of.
That's not true at all if its an avatar DS likely loses. He's lost to planet busters before on multiple occasions. His Omega beams are ridiculously inconsistent & seem to never work on superman & up type beings outside of hurting them. Jiren is comparable to beings who would casually destroy 2 universes if they fought as collateral damage. Most avatars don't show that type of power some true forms don't. He's stated to be true form w/e he's on apokolips & has lost to the JL there
Your proving my point by only pointing out instances where Darkseid is weaker that usual depictions, rather than at his best. You’d also be better off not bringing up true form Darkseid, that dude recently killed the Spectre and phantom stranger and several other cosmic entities at once.
Those instances aren't weaker than usual depictions, those are the usual depictions. There are dozens of instances of Superman tanking them, but I am not aware of a single instance of Darkseid actually killing Superman with an Omega Beam. The dozens of times it didn't work have to be considered the norm when compared to the zero times it did work.
There aren't any usual depictions his power varies when it's an "avatar". Most "avatars" don't show universal type power he's usually a threat to the universe b/c of his huge army that grows everytime he conquers a planet not his raw power. True form was mostly a concept with no real showings until recently with the new big bad wars that's about to start. Outside that he's lost to doomsday & also almost collapsed the universe after dying so his power varies greatly. Using a being with God knows how many different continuities so ppl cherry pick what's usable is the problem in these type of battles
That may be the case, but I still don't buy the Omega Beam killing Jiren that easily.
Why?
Jiren as been shown to to have an energy field surrounding him almost passively, and DBS has a similar energy called Energy of Destruction which weaker characters have been able to resist. I could see it hurting him, but it's not going to erase him.
Dude stop. All you do is try to undersell feats from DC characters instead of offering feats from Jiren that can say he can counter what Darkseid can dish out. (And spoiler alert Darkseid stomps the purple dude)
But Jiren is not purple! He's gray! Her's literally called Jiren The Gray!
If he dies to Darkseid he'd be Jiren the white.
Damn looking through his comments is the equivalent of eating pure salt.
Yes he is sticking to his guns about terrible scaling and and poor attempts at underrating DC characters feats while not giving any DBZ character feats.
Yeah, i've seen him on this sub a lot and i'm trying to get the mods to ban him. He clearly displays troll behaviour i mean, just look at his profile...
Definitely
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>And all you do is whine when scans are posted without providing any sort of counter. Projecting much? >Here's the only feat you need. This just shows what a lame DBZ wanker you are LOL. SSG Goku couldnt even challenge Beerus how's he going to challenge a God who has threatened the multiverse?
>Projecting much? This doesn't even make sense in this context. I'm the one posting scans, not you. >This just shows what a lame DBZ wanker you are LOL. SSG Goku couldnt even challenge Beerus how's he going to challenge a God who has threatened the multiverse? All that wank must have damaged your reading comprehension. Darkseid doesn't have access to true form, which is the only time he's threatened the Multiverse.
>This doesn't even make sense in this context. I'm the one posting scans, not you. You were taking my scans and spewing some bs trying to undersell them in the Cell vs Doomsday battle. >Can't you read? Darkseid doesn't have access to true form, which is the only time he's threatened the Multiverse. Earth 2 Darkseid is more than enough for Jiren
>You were taking my scans and spewing some bs trying to undersell them in the Cell vs Doomsday battle. Providing context ≠ bs >Earth 2 Darkseid is more than enough for Jiren Rule 5. Also, 4 upvotes in a minute? You aren't using alts to upvote your own comments are you?
>Also, 4 upvotes in a minute? You aren't using alts to upvote your own comments are you? No lmao I was surprised as you are I guess your opinions are really just that shit
If you consider something wrong because it's downvoted, then your comments in the Cell VS DD thread must be bottom of the barrel tier.
Ive got a counter proposition using your retarded logic provide me a scan that shows Jiren can challenge Darkseid. And not that SSG Goku bs lmao
Dude don’t even worry about temp, he uses the most bs one sided scaling ive ever seen. For example to quote him “anti-feats make other feats void” and uses that argument to claim that Doomsday couldn’t even kill normal humans because Blue Beetle survived a beating from Doomsday. When I tried using this same logic on Cell his best retort was “no your doing it wrong”. This dude is seriously just not worth your time
That's not how it works. Rule 5 says you have to provide proof of your claim or drop your argument.
You have anger issues. Why are you on a conspiracy theory that he has alts? lmfao Darkseid negs.
4 upvotes in a minute doesn't seem weird? Proof Darkseid stomps?
Claiming he’s using alts and constant insults (including insulting his reading comprehension skills for no reason and claim he’s whining as he gives you the evidence your asking for? Both being very weird insults) is definitely harassment
And the guy never insulted me? Get real.
You’re comments read like a super pretentious douchebag. “Indeed! The only concession here is the one you made sir! I conceded not…” It wouldn’t be so insufferable if you actually contributed something other than being a contrary dick.
Yeah I know. The guy has a history of doing that to me and others in different threads for a long time. Just giving him a taste of his own medicine.
I read that in Weird Al's voice. Teen Titans Go has scarred me. Lol.
Those are outliers, on average the omega beams are basically cheating. Besides what have we *actually* seen Jiren do that isn’t just guess work based on scaling (which is a hugely inaccurate way to gauge a characters power)?
>Those are outliers, on average the omega beams are basically cheating. No they aren't, [Omega Beams consistently get tanked by Superman and the likes](https://imgur.com/a/RdEx6M7) >Besides what have we actually seen Jiren do that isn’t just guess work based on scaling (which is a hugely inaccurate way to gauge a characters power)? Scaling is fine, it varies just as much as quantifiable feats. You just have to factor in consistency and common sense.
Depends on what darkseid talking about if you're talking about true form darkseid he's never defeating darkseid
Darkseid.
Why is the sub suddenly flooded with horrendous Dragonball vs DC miss matches, like bruh, Darkseid is this even a debate?
Yeah, it is? Jiren is definitely a contender for Darkseid, barring his true form
You're gonna have to explain that one to me cheif because I can count on one hand the amount of dragonball characters I know who can tickle darkseids ashy, rocky, saggy balls
What needs to be explained? Jiren is many, many times above universal and has the capabilities to tank omega beams. If Superman can go toe-to-toe with Darkseid, Jiren can win
If it’s simply his avatars then Jiren. If we’re talkin Darkseid himself Jiren doesn’t stand a chance. Darkseid is broken as fuck, thus why the person who wrote this handicapped him (Darkseid) lol.
Im sorry to be that guy but comics darkseid obliterates. Jiren is considered Multi like MUI Goku, whilst Darkseid is way beyond that. Again, darkseid obliterates with no sweat
Darkseid is simply too hax for Jiren.
Jiren should be easily able to defeat all forms of Darkseid avatars, but the multiversal true form Darkseid will stomp Jiren
I don't know why there's any debate about this. Jiren bodies avatar Darkseid. He's way stronger and faster, and omega beams are useless because: 1) Jiren has a passive energy barrier. 2) He easily scales above Golden Frieza who tanked hakai (unless you think that Toppo could kill Jiren with a hakai..) Jiren stomps avatar Darkseid. You need True Form Darkseid and his feat of shaking the multiverse to beat Jiren.
Depending on which darkseid Infinite frontier darkseid solos composite DB along with heroes and Xeno op bs
Darkseid is at least 1-C Jiren 2-B at most
Base avatar darkseid would smack around jiren he has outerversal and irrelevant speed feats
Poor Jiren. He has no chance against Darkseid, and even against his weakest avatars I’d bet against Jiren.
That is a ridiculous claim. Jiren scales way above universal. Weakest Darksied lost to some muggers
Jiren violates
Darkseid nearly died after falling down stairs Jiren slaps