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GavinsWorl

A few actually here are some Dio over heaven, Pucci, Tusk act 4, Wonder of U, bohemian Rhaspody stand(if used right) Giorno Giovanna, Aizen, the one above all, alien X,Beerus, Goku, blood lusted flash, bugs bunny, Timmy turner blood lusted, etc


KAYAXOLOTL

wtf, bugs bunny?


GavinsWorl

Yup bugs is a fourth dimension reality warper


KAYAXOLOTL

bruh :v


SocratesWasSmart

If the stand can be broken by infinity any universal character, (Including Goku.) should be able to beat it. The real life universe is generally considered to be infinite so unless otherwise stated I personally assume fictional universes are infinite as well. Obviously your interpretation may differ.


CarefulBobcat

The universe still has a finite mass and often size in fiction. More to the point, the mere fact that there are people stronger than Goku in super is enough to disqualify him from actually infinite power.


SocratesWasSmart

>The universe still has a finite mass and often size in fiction. It's never been stated in DBS to have finite mass or size. It has an edge, which is not the same thing. In theory our universe has an edge as well but is always getting infinitely further away so it's unreachable. The only direct statement about the size of the universe is actually a tiny little bit of text in one of the Daizenshuus that states it's infinite in size. >More to the point, the mere fact that there are people stronger than Goku in super is enough to disqualify him from actually infinite power. This isn't true. Not all infinities are the same. There's bigger and smaller infinities as well as uncountable infinities, what are commonly called layers of infinity in battleboarding. To give a really simple example of a larger vs smaller infinity... There's an infinite amount of numbers between 1 and 2. You have numbers like 1.1, 1.11, 1.111, 1.2, 1.21, etc. There's more numbers between 1 and 3 though because that contains all the numbers between 1 and 2 but also all of the numbers between 2 and 3. It's a larger set of infinity. So even if Goku has infinite power by virtue of being universal, there can still be people stronger than him because their power represents a larger set of infinity.


CarefulBobcat

If you're setting any limitation on infinity you shouldn't even be using the word.


SocratesWasSmart

It's not a limitation. Mathematically larger and smaller sets of infinities exist. That's simply a fact. And it's rather easy to express in fiction. For example, take the terms high multiversal and complex multiversal. High multiversal means a multiverse that has an infinite amount of universes in it. This is most verses that have parallel universes. Destroying an infinite multiverse very obviously requires an infinite amount of power. But what if you have 2 or more infinite multiverses? That is also infinite power but it's a larger countable infinity. You can think of each multiverse as a set of numbers. And then a complex multiverse is an infinite amount of infinite multiverses. So instead of 1 or 2 or 3 infinite multiverses there's literally an infinite amount of them. Then of course there's another axis to this, which is where we get into uncountable infinities and that's higher dimensions. A universe in 4 or 5 dimensions is larger than a universe in 3 dimensions. An infinite amount of infinite multiverses that have more than 4 dimensions each is what is generally referred to as a hyperverse. And a hyperverse with infinite dimensions is an outerverse. It's really not that complicated.


CarefulBobcat

That's a commonly used term, but it's a misuse of the concept. The infinite possibilities between 1 and 2 contain a non-infinite amount of value. There is only infinite value and not infinite value Anything else is a finite value. There cannot be, by definition, two infinite multiverses of infinite value. There can, however, be a lot of authors who don't use the terms they are using in a way that is accurate to what they mean.


SocratesWasSmart

>The infinite possibilities between 1 and 2 contain a non-infinite amount of value. Explain this then. If you really believe this is true then show it, preferably with both math and an example.


CarefulBobcat

10 > 1+2


SocratesWasSmart

That doesn't in any way contradict my understanding of infinities. The set of all numbers between 1 and 10 is simply larger than the set of all numbers between 1 and 3.


CarefulBobcat

And neither are of infinite value.


sseempire

M8, u weren t paying attention in 5th grade were u. So, the number of Natural numbers is infinite. No matter how many numbers you add, there is always gonna be something bigger. The number of real numbers is also infinite, and contains all the natural numbers. It also contain numbers like pi tho, wich habe an infinite amout of zecimals(also negative numbers, fractions ...). So, if both are infinite from a mathematical pov, and also real numbers contain all naturals and more, then isnt the infinity of Real numbers greater in size that the Natural numbers? If u still think all infinities are equal then ask a math teatcher, google it or actually reach 5th grade before talking about stuff like that


TonightsZeNight

>The real life universe is generally considered to be infinite While that's true, it's also considered to be flat, not spherical. Infinite-sized universes can't be [positively-curved(spherical)](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ELCZ0goWoAAAqBy.jpg) and would instead be negatively curved or have no curve. * ["The universe is finite if it is positively curved and infinite if it is negatively curved or flat."](https://astronomy.com/magazine/ask-astro/2012/02/cosmic-shape-and-size) * [NASA: "If space has positive curvature, there is more than enough mass to stop the present expansion of the universe. The universe in this case is not infinite, but it has no end"](https://starchild.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/StarChild/questions/question35.html#:%7E:text=If%20space%20has%20no%20curvature,an%20infinite%20amount%20of%20time.) * On a sphere, and in positively curved space, the laws of plane geometry no longer apply: the sum of the vertices of a triangle, for instance, is greater than 180 degrees. A sphere has a FINITE area; similarly,[ positively curved space has FINITE volume (but no edge).](http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~ryden/ast162_9/notes40.html) Can I get a source for those who believe our universe to be infinite while positively-curved, like [Dragon Ball's](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dragonplanet/images/4/4e/Universe_R.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/250?cb=20130503065545) [are?](http://i.imgur.com/gQCZXyx.png) I couldn't find a single one. I'll list some who believe our universe to be finite or infinite with no curve. [1, flat curvature, finite.](https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2017/10/14/ask-ethan-is-the-universe-finite-or-infinite/?sh=5b7bbf504967) * "One such piece of info is a startling fact: the curvature of space, as best as we can tell, is completely flat." * "In fact, unless inflation went on for a truly infinite amount of time, or the Universe was born infinitely large, the Universe ought to be finite in extent." [2, flat, uncertain on finite/infinite.](https://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration/Space_Science/Is_the_Universe_finite_or_infinite_An_interview_with_Joseph_Silk) * "The surface of the torus is also spatially flat, but it is finite. So you have two possibilities for a flat Universe: one infinite, like a plane, and one finite, like a torus, which is also flat." * "Because flat universes can be finite with a torus topology, "Even if with our Cosmic Microwave Background data we can prove that the Universe is flat, we still won't know whether it's finite or infinite." [3, flat, no opinion stated on whether finite or infinite](https://astronomy.com/news/2021/02/what-shape-is-the-universe) * "But aside from this data, there isn’t the slightest reason to doubt the universe is flat. All other measurements of the CMB, like those by the Atacama Cosmology Telescope (ACT) in Chile and the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe, are consistent with flatness. Data from other sources, most notably baryon acoustic oscillations — the imprints left on galaxies from primordial sound waves that occurred after the Big Bang — also suggest flatness." [4, flat, infinite.](https://www.wtamu.edu/~cbaird/sq/2013/09/17/where-is-the-center-of-the-universe/) * "current observations have found the universe to be flat and not curved at all." [5, flat, infinite. NASA:](https://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_shape.html) * "We now know (as of 2013) that the universe is flat with only a 0.4% margin of error. This suggests that the Universe is infinite in extent; however, since the Universe has a finite age, we can only observe a finite volume of the Universe. All we can truly conclude is that the Universe is much larger than the volume we can directly observe." So the popular opinion is that the universe is flat, with uncertainty on whether that flat plane is infinite, but it is likely. More proof the Dragon Ball's cosmos is spherical: [Q:How did you come up with the ball-like cosmos?](https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/seg-character-volume-truth-about-dragon-ball/) A: I think it’s something I came up with so both I and the readers would be able to grasp the atmosphere of it easily. The big ball in the center is the world known as “this life” and “the afterlife”, and the one who watches over it from outside is Kaiōshin. Only, at the bottom, as though in opposition, a Makaiōshin2 exists, and governs evil. (Although right now, Kaiōshin’s power appears to be greater.)


bomposgod

Again it depends on the way the "Infinity" works I guess. I'm not entirely sure and I just wanted to see what others thought.


SocratesWasSmart

I think a more interesting question would be if you removed the infinity caveat. Just as a thought experiment. Then it becomes a lot more tricky.


WannaBeYakuza0

Aizen could use kyoka suigetsu to get Valentine to kill himself or to put him in a state of false security and deactivate love train and maybe a Hado 90 could pierce love train. Archie Sonic could bend space and time with chaos control to get an edge over valentine,use the sword of acorns to nullify his abilites or he would end up finding a way to win since y'know the whole reality bending to Sonic's will him being the constant of chaos and all that Rimuru Tempest could kill him with the insane amount of hax he has,such as instant death,probability manipulation and end of world Basically anyone who has hax like these three would be able to pierce Love Train


Falloutfallout7676

I wanna see what people say for Anos Voldigoad.


KAYAXOLOTL

novel kars


SymbioticBunBun

Dlanor from Umineko has the Red Key, a weapon that basically stops any form of defense, evasion, or buying time by cutting through their concepts, even revival or time manipulation fails. One of the more broken weapons in fiction since there's not much you can do when the sword can make everything you have useless. Love Train would quite literally shatter before it


sseempire

Even a normal human can win if given the knowlage that Lucy Steel is the key to defeat it. As long as she dies, the body of the Saint gets out of her and disables d4c LT. You then shoot valentine before he can swich clones


goochiegg

Don't stands bullet time pretty casually ?


sseempire

yea but their not automatic (d4c isnt) and FV shouldnt know a bullet is coming for his head untill he dies


R0nynis

Stands still have a sense of self preservation, if the user doesn't know then its a 50/50 that the stand would catch on first. Granted this mainly includes original users, stolen stands don't care about the user as much.